Conference yukon::christian_v7

      Hi,
    
        Have been out since last Wed.  I'll try to reply.
    
       					Tony

Re: 959.14

Hi Ace,

>So, it still follows that God accounted Abraham righteous when
>      his faith was of a certain degree because of a faith Abraham
>      had which was of a 'different' degree, no?

*	Maybe I don't quite understand the question. God didn't account
*Abraham righteous because of a faith he did not yet have. Sure his
*faith grew over time due to God's frequent appearings but in God's eyes
*he was accounted righteous for the faith he had, not the amount of faith he
*would eventually have. 

What you are saying (above) seems in direct contradiction to the plain
statement of the word of God...

Romans 4:20-22
He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but
was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able
to perform.
And therefore (because of this/for this reason) "it was accounted to him for 
righteousness."

Romans 4:22 is the only time I know of where the Bible explicitly states
WHY Abraham's _faith of its initial degree_ was accounted to him for 
rightousness.  The reason was because of Abraham's future _faith of a higher
degree_.

Quite honestly, you seem (to me) to be directly contradicting the clear
word of God.  I mean, some texts may seem difficult, but this one is clear.

There is quite a lot I feel I could say, but for now I'll just volunteer
two things.

One, you seem to infer an entirely mystical explanation for the heart 
change.  You refer to the Spirit indwelling the heart in some mystical/
completely unable to comprehend way.  The Holy Spirit's work in our hearts
is one of revealing the word of God.  The Spirit reveals the character of 
God.  The word itself is the power.

You seem to suggest that the Spirit changes our characters in a way that
is above and beyond revealing.  This is not true.  The Spirit changes
our hearts in a way that is entirely revelational.  "The message of the
cross is the power of God unto salvation."  "You shall know the truth and
the truth shall set you free."  The seed in the parable of the sower is
the word.  The word itself is the power and the source of the word, ultimately,
is the Holy Spirit, i.e. God Himself.

You mentioned Abraham's faith growing by "God's appearing."  Again, that
sounds a tad mystical or at least open to a lot of possible interpretations.  
Let me suggest that Abraham's faith grew according to the following: "Faith 
comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

The last thing I want to say is that you referred to your understanding of
the gospel as "God's gospel."  "If any man thinks he knows ANYTHING, he knows
nothing yet as he ought to know it."

I am so free because of my conviction that I don't understand the gospel 
hardly at all.  If nothing else, all else being the same, it helpe make me 
more  accessible for receiving further revelations of the gospel.

Ace, if you think you know it all already, you've just tied your hands.  How
can your heart be willing to receive any more?  Wasn't that part of the Jew's
problem?  Can't we learn from their mistakes?

						Tony

      re: .23
    
      Hi Jill,
    
        Help me out, OK?  ;-)
    
        The disciples had faith, but it was insufficient, perhaps even
        less than that of a mustard seed.
    
        Does this negate the idea that _degree of faith_ lies on a 
        continuum?  Does it refer in any way whatsoever to the basis
        for why God accounted faith to him for righteousness?
    
        Where can the basis for why be found in those verses you asked
        me to consider?
    
        If it can't be found, what is the relevence of those verses to
        this topic which is about BASIS?
    
    						Tony

    Hi, Tony.
    
    I took Jill's point to be not so much the basis for God accounting
    faith as righteousness, but rather the amount of faith needed to be
    effective.
    
    In other words, the verses Jill submitted seem to indicate that God
    acts given even a miniscule measure of faith.
    
    Jill can correct me if I'm wrong.
    
    /Wayne

    Hi Tony,
    
    As Wayne said (thanks Wayne) these verses don't seem to match with your
    explaination of different faiths, or even growing faith which becomes
    different and more acceptable to God.
    
                                                                    
    Jill
    

      Oh, OK, thanks for the explanation.
    
      I do see things differently.  The main work of God I am referring
      to is the change of heart.  Paraphrasing...
    
      We all, as beholding a glass dimly, are changed from glory to
      glory.  1 Corin 13 refers to seeing as we also are seen and
      changing from a child to a perfect man, "when that which is
      perfect is come."  1 John refers to being like Him when we
      see Him _as He is_ which I take to refer to seeing the Word
      not with the eyes of our flesh, but with the eye of faith.
    
      Consider superimposing this support for being changed from glory
      to glory with, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word
      of God" and the text which refers to "from faith to faith."
    
      I suggest that the extent of our heart change is proportional
      to the extent of the glory of God beheld is proportional to the
      degree of our faith.  If we behold dimly, we are changed to that
      same extent (dimly).  When we behold clearly (as He is), we will
      be changed in proportion (we shall be like Him).
    
      Jill, the text you use seems to _possibly_ though not _necessarily_
      support the notion that at the very initial response of faith, we 
      can be changed from complete unrighteousness to being even like Him 
      in character.  
    
      I think more texts need to be brought to the table and if they
      are, they do not harmonize with this notion.  Real life doesn't
      seem to either.  I've yet to see a perfect in character Christian
      although I have seen many respond to that dim revelation of the
      word of God which they have seen.
    
      Hosea 6:1-3 is highly pertinent here as well.  His coming in the
      heart is not all at once, just as our faith-reception of Him
      is not all at once, but gradual.
    
    						Tony
      

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen." (He.11:1)

In other words, faith is the ground or reality of things I desire and expect,
and the clear proof of things I can't (yet) see.

"And being not weak in faith, <Abraham> considered not his own body now dead,
when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's
womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong
in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had
promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for
righteousness.

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for
us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus
our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised
again for our justification.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord
Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we
stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Ro.4:19-5:2)

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had
received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said,
That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise
him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."
(He.11:17-19)

Examine carefully "it" that was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.  "It"
was being convinced that God could bring life from death (dead seed and dead
womb), and thus accounting God able to raise Isaac from the dead.  "It" was NOT
that God WOULD (later) perform what He promised, rather that God COULD (now) do
what He said, despite what Abraham (now) saw in the flesh.

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, is He who hath
shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in
the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that
the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on
every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing
about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus
might be made manifest in our body.

"For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the
life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So the death
worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according
as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and
therefore speak; Know that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us
also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

"For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the
thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not;
but through our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more
exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which
are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen
are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2Co.4:6-18)

God's imputing righteousness, then, is NOT based on something yet to be done,
rather on what is done already.  He raised Jesus from the dead!  Abraham
received (life to come through) Isaac from death "in a figure."

On the basis of God's Word, we who "believe on Him that raised up Jesus our
Lord from the dead" are righteous.  And since we are righteous, based on no
merit of ours, but rather on His work, God owes us nothing, bound only by His
own Word to do what He promised, i.e., to make us like Jesus.  In other words,
by faith we are righteous, and because we are righteous, "we know that, when He
shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." (1Jn.3:2b)

    re .29
    
    Hi Tony,
    
          I suggest that the extent of our heart change is proportional
          to the extent of the glory of God beheld is proportional to the
          degree of our faith. 
    Yes I agree.  But Remember, faith is a gift from God totally.  You can 
    work at faith, but unless He calls you, unless He wills it, your faith 
    will not change by this work.  God controls the amount of faith, God
    controls the time of revelation, God controls all the gifts He gives
    us.  We need to be obedient and seek Him, but it is His plan, not ours.
    
          Jill, the text you use seems to _possibly_ though not_necessarily_
          support the notion that at the very initial response of faith, we 
          can be changed from complete unrighteousness to being even like Him 
          in character.  
    I suppose this is possible, but I haven't ever seen it happen.  I
    suggest that you need to look more deeply at the verses I suggested to 
    find a meaning that fits with the rest of the bible.  (I will admit in 
    advance that I don't understand it yet either!)
    
                                                  
    Jill
     

Does RIGHTEOUSNESS in the eyes of faith = SINLESSNESS in the eyes of flesh?

I believe faith imputed for righteousness evidences the life of Christ, and
what is seen depends on who's beholding and what's being sought.

Of Jesus our Father said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Of Jesus "righteous" men said, "Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a
friend of publicans and sinners."

Of Jesus' disciples "righteous" men said, "Behold, thy disciples do that which
is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day."

Of His disciples Jesus prayed to our Father, "As thou hast sent me into the
world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

"Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly
this was a righteous man."

The Apostle Paul said, "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead
in vain."

      Hi Jill,
    
        We will most definitely part our ways regarding your
        sovereignty position.
    
        God will most certainly give me as I am willing to
        receive and if He had it His way, I would be willing
        to receive _right now_ all that He so wants to give 
        right now.
    
        "How I longed to gather you, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"
    
        See also Isaiah 5.
    
    						Tony
        

      re: .30
    
    Hi Wayne
    
      "Therefore IT was iumputed for righteousness."
    
      Check your margin Wayne.  I lack access to a Bible, but I
      believe it is a quote from Genesis 17:1 or thereabouts
      (15:1 perhaps?).  The Bible should have the passage in
      quotes and should footnote the source (in the margin).
    
      Its quoted right from there!  And then read on and see
      Abraham doubt.
    
      IT refers to his initial degree of faith.  Being fully
      convinced his final degree of faith.  Then tie in the 
      Mount Moriah exp (3 days which is when we are spiritually
      fully raised from the dead) and look for God's exhortation, 
      "BECAUSE you have done this thing..." and you might see a 
      lot of stuff going on!
    
    						Tony

    Hi, Tony.
    
    Are you referring to Ge.15:6, "And he believed in the Lord; and He
    counted it to him for righteousness?"
    
    Did I miss something, or was "it" referring to Abraham's believing in
    the Lord then, not something later?  Ah, but you agree "it" here refers
    to Abraham's faith initially.
    
    Ro.4:1-5 says, "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as
    pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by
    works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the
    scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for
    righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of
    grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him
    that justifieth the ungoldy, his faith is counted for righteousness."
    
    And I was being careful to "tie in" the Moriah experience.  Have you
    really read what I wrote?  See note .15 in this topic.
    
    "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second
    time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because
    thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only
    son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will
    multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is
    upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because
    thou has obeyed my voice.
    
    "So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went
    together to Beersheba..." (Ge.22:15-19a)
    
    Note that "Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass;
    and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."
    (Ge.22:5)  This was before Abraham took Isaac up on the mountain with
    instructions to "offer him there for a burnt offering."
    
    So, when did Abraham actually give his son?  On the mountain?  The
    Scripture says Abraham received him from the dead "in a figure."  Or
    should that be received Him "in a figure?" :-)
    
    Indeed I do "see a lot of stuff going on!" :-)  I trust you'll not miss
    what's going on now while waiting for something later.  Our "apocalytic
    identity" is already established.
    
    /Wayne

    What does the following passage mean?
    
    "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep
    that which I have committed unto Him against that day. Hold fast the
    form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love
    which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee
    keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (2Ti.1:12b-14)

      Hi Wayne,
    
        I reread .30 and I did misunderstand you a little bit.  You 
        mentioned "it" referring to Abraham believing right then that
        God could raise from the dead/make a nation out of him, however
        you do agree that this "it" was a lesser degree of belief than
        the one referred to in the "therefore", i.e. being fully
        convinced", right?
    
        I believe the cross is the basis, but for a different reason.
        This all dovetails so well with the idea that our deliverance
        is the transormation of our hearts,  The cross is prophetic of
        a final Abraham with his Mount Moriah exp.  It is a prediction
        of it and it is what ENABLES it.
    
        That is why I believe the cross is the basis.  Because the 
        _message_ of the cross is the power of God unto salvation!
        Because the cross can get us to fully live not for ourselves,
        but for He who died for us and rose again (1 Cor 5).  Because 
        the cross can make us perfect (Gal. 3:1-3).  Because the very 
        image revelation of the blood of the cross can wash our hearts 
        completely.
    
        That's why I think Genesis 22 is so compelling.  As a type,
        the blood of the cross enables the perfection of a last day's
        Abraham's faith and the demonstration of that faith, i.e. the
        symbolic three day time of trial.  "Because you did this thing..."
    
    	Wayne, I'm sorry if I came off as kind of pompous and also for
        being careless with you.  I am so psyched you are looking at 
        these texts with me!  The word is the power!  Halelujia!!
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony
             

 .36



 sigh...that verse reminds me of the hymn that was the favorite of a pastor
 who's memorial service I attended this past summer..we sang it at the
 close of the service, and to this day I get choked up thinking about it.



 Jim

Tony,

I've no burden to say more concerning this topic than I already have.

>I am so free because of my conviction that I don't understand the gospel 
>hardly at all. 

Brother, the Bible charges us to study to show ourselves approved. God's Word
has revealed His gospel to us. If you don't understand the gospel it is not
because God prefers it that way. We have the Bible to make us clear concerning
what the gospel is. Not knowing the gospel is not knowing the truth and not
knowing the truth does not set you free. We have a responsibility to understand
what the gospel is according to God's Word. The Spirit's revelation will not
come to us apart from God's Word. If we cannot understand the Bible's definition
of the gospel, the Spirit has no ground to reveal anything further concerning
the gospel. 

Secondly, if you don't understand the gospel then why do you reject the
fellowship of the other brothers here concerning this matter? Or why would
argue persistently against that which you don't understand? 

I realize notes have the inherent weakness of not being able to convey
the heart. 

Best,
Ace

Hi, Tony.

|       You mentioned "it" referring to Abraham believing right then that
|       God could raise from the dead/make a nation out of him, however
|       you do agree that this "it" was a lesser degree of belief than
|       the one referred to in the "therefore", i.e. being fully
|       convinced", right?

** Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say "it" in Ge.15:6 (quoted in
   Ro.4:3) and "it" in Ro.4:22&23 are different "degrees" of belief.  Now,
   since each was counted or imputed to Abraham for righteousness, then
   which righteousness was greater?  Did the righteousness imputed to the
   "final Abraham" supercede that initially counted unto Abraham?  Are you
   suggesting that degrees of righteousness accrue to degrees of faith?

   What to do, then, with "it" in Ro.4:24 referring to belief "on Him
   that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead?"  The context would indicate
   the "it" in v.24 is the same "it" as in vs.22&23.
    
|       I believe the cross is the basis, but for a different reason.
|       This all dovetails so well with the idea that our deliverance
|       is the transormation of our hearts,  The cross is prophetic of
|       a final Abraham with his Mount Moriah exp.  It is a prediction
|       of it and it is what ENABLES it.

** Jesus dying on the cross "is prophetic of a final Abraham with his Mount
   Moriah experience?"  Actually, I thought Abraham's and Isaac's Moriah
   experience was prophetic of Jesus' death and resurrection.  We're looking
   at the same Scripture, so what am I missing?
    
|       That is why I believe the cross is the basis.  Because the 
|       _message_ of the cross is the power of God unto salvation!
|       Because the cross can get us to fully live not for ourselves,
|       but for He who died for us and rose again (1 Cor 5).  Because 
|       the cross can make us perfect (Gal. 3:1-3).  Because the very 
|       image revelation of the blood of the cross can wash our hearts 
|       completely.

** What is the Holy Spirit's role in the scheme you've outlined?

   The gospel preached by the Apostle Paul, which we have received and wherein
   we stand, by which we are saved, if we hold fast what was preached, unless
   we have believed in vain, is that Christ died for our sins according to
   the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third
   day according to the scriptures, and that He was seen of men.  See 1Co.15.

   Paul went on to say, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are
   of all men most miserable...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
   shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the
   firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh
   the end..."

   Again, I'm not quite clear from whence you come, Tony.  In this life only
   do you hope in Christ to be perfected?
    
|       That's why I think Genesis 22 is so compelling.  As a type,
|       the blood of the cross enables the perfection of a last day's
|       Abraham's faith and the demonstration of that faith, i.e. the
|       symbolic three day time of trial.  "Because you did this thing..."

** Genesis 22 is indeed compelling!  Not only do we see the operation of
   faith, in both Abraham and Isaac, but also the love of God our Father and
   Jesus our Lord.  Not to mention God's provision of the ram "for a burnt
   offering in the stead of <Isaac>."
    
|   	Wayne, I'm sorry if I came off as kind of pompous and also for
|       being careless with you.  I am so psyched you are looking at 
|       these texts with me!  The word is the power!  Halelujia!!

** I understand, Tony.  You're convinced that you see truth that I and
   others are missing.

   Yes, I am looking at the same texts as you, yet we see differently.  I'm
   trying to understand what you feel is really at stake here.  In that
   spirit, would you answer the following questions?

   1) Do you hold that our Lord will not return (come again or appear, if
      you will) until an end-time group is perfected in the flesh, i.e.,
      made like Christ in earthen vessels?

   2) Do you (and others) desire to be like our Lord sooner than later as
      part of that end-time group so that He may be seen as He is in glory
      to usher in the eternal kingdom?  In other words, do you believe God
      is waiting to perfect a few (willing) people in the flesh before
      Jesus appears?

   3) Do you believe that we who on the basis of God's Word by faith and
      commendation of the Holy Spirit see ourselves already made righteous
      in fact will not be made righteous because our eyes will be blind to
      the final revelation of Jesus Christ?

In Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith,

/Wayne

    Boy, that's a relief!
    
    You'd just cause all sorts of confusion, anyway! :-)
    
    "Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from Him cometh my salvation. He only
    is my rock and my salvation; He is my defence; I shall not be moved."
    (Ps.62:1&6
    
    A good man, a man that fears the Lord, "shall not be moved for ever:
    the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance. He shall not be
    afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord."
    (Ps.112:6&7)
    
    You're a good man, Ace!
    
    /Wayne

re.41

> You'd just cause all sorts of confusion, anyway! :-)

Including myself. 8*)

    'Tis no digression, JimBro.  That verse has everything to do with the
    basis of our faith.  My Lord and my God is Faithful and True.
    
    /Wayne

      re: .39
    
      Hi Ace,
    
        I was going to get up a halfway detailed reply, but thought the
        better of it.
    
        I'll just leave it nice and short.
    
        The purpose of the cross is to cleanse the heart.  Its message
        IS the power of God.  Your lack of discernment regarding me and
        your less than perfect character testify to your incomplete
        understanding of the gospel.
    
        Those that know more about certain things are the very ones who
        have the most questions.  One who knows very little about chemistry
        would have much less questions about chemistry than one who knows
        a lot more.
    
        Your understanding of the gospel cannot accomadate the truth of
        Romans 4.  It cannot accomadate the fact that the death of Romans
        6:23 is experienced by PAUL.  It cannot accomadate the fact of
        a 2000 year time increment between the cross and the end of things
        as we know it.  The humanity of Christ (pre or post fallen flesh)
        is probably unimportant.  How the death of Romans 7 is latent in
        sinful flesh is probably not often mentioned.  How it is that
        God solicits Satan's opinion in Job surely finds no accomadation
        in your gospel.
    
        You are a typical Laodicean.  I advise you to at least begin to
        believe in the word that characterizes us as we really are 
        (Laodicea).
    
        If you knew the gospel as well as you think you did, you couldn't
        sin for faith comes by hearing the word and the word is the power
        and the context of "power" is its ability to transform our
        hearts.
    
    	I do study by the way.
    
    							Tony

Reply Note 959.40

Hi Wayne,

** Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say "it" in Ge.15:6 (quoted in
   Ro.4:3) and "it" in Ro.4:22&23 are different "degrees" of belief.  Now,
   since each was counted or imputed to Abraham for righteousness, then
** which righteousness was greater?

   The imputed righteousness, in either case, is equivalent.  Being fully
   the righteousness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

** Did the righteousness imputed to the
   "final Abraham" supercede that initially counted unto Abraham?  Are you
** suggesting that degrees of righteousness accrue to degrees of faith?

   No.  Not at all.  Either way, it was fully the righteousness of Christ.

   I AM suggesting a few things though!

   One, the fact that the BASIS for the imputed righteousness of Christ
   is a higher degree of faith is NOT ACCOMADATED by the gospel as presently
   understood.  I know of not a single time this Conference (in all its
   years) has ever even observed this point.  Yet, it is the most explicit
   reason scripture has ever given for why one is accounted righteous when
   one first responds to God by faith.

   Furthermore, I know of not a single Christian book that makes mention
   of this truth.

** What to do, then, with "it" in Ro.4:24 referring to belief "on Him
   that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead?"  The context would indicate
** the "it" in v.24 is the same "it" as in vs.22&23.
   
   Yes, but not the same degree of faith as verses 19-21!

   By the way, its a bit off a tangent, but I'd like to suggest a more
   spiritual application to the faith in Jesus being raised from the dead.
   That would be a resurrection from the death of Romans 7:9.  By that,
   I refer to an experience entirely within conscious existence.  When
   sin is seen and guilt is tasted (death), the 'resurrection' of responding
   to that load of guilt with a faith that believes God is with you.

   Is this not the resurrection of the cross of which the physical is a
   schoolmaster?  (See Psalm 22, especially verses 9-11,19,24.

   Which resurrection is the efficacious one?  The physical resurrection
   of Christ, or the spiritual 'holding' on of Christ when He tasted
   death (guilt, the experience of Romans 7) for us?

I'll continue...

Continuing on...

** Jesus dying on the cross "is prophetic of a final Abraham with his Mount
   Moriah experience?"  Actually, I thought Abraham's and Isaac's Moriah
   experience was prophetic of Jesus' death and resurrection.  We're looking
** at the same Scripture, so what am I missing?
   
   Maybe they are prophetic of both!  Maybe do a study of *three days*.
   Ezra 10 is excellent.  It happens when the rains fall.  Hmmmm, like the
   days of Noah!  A three day experience of the word ("washed by the water
   of the word" - Eph. 5:26/see also Deut. 32:1-2/Hosea 6:1-3/lots of other
   texts).  A huge endtime coming of the WORD!  Of revelation.

   Wayne, if you could just consider salvation to be the transformation of
   our hearts AND that the death of the cross is implicit in our sinful
   flesh (see Romans 7:23-24), the path of being made righteous is the
   path of the cross. 

   We are made righteous by the word, but that same word exposes our sin
   and thus we inherently bear its guilt.  The process goes all the way
   for the last generation for Christ is a forerunner behind the veil
   (Heb. 6:20) and the last generation also beholds very image.  Thus
   virtually all of the lusts and passions of our flesh (Gal. 5:24) will be
   fully exposed to us.  We will be face to face with a full revelation 
   of the sinfulness of sin.  We will thus inherently bear that load of
   guilt.

   In sinful flesh, the only way to be made righteous is to bear the cross.
    
   NOW, consider Romans 4 with this model.  If salvation is the making
   righteous of our hearts, what is the relevence of faith?  Faith allows
   the merits of the cross (the blood of the cross = the message of the
   cross) to transform our heart.  BUT, our initial degree of faith doesn't
   allow the word to finish the job.

   But, God looks at that initial faith and essentially says, "I can mature 
   that."  What is the relevence of that?  (Romans 4 - by this I mean God
   referring to a HIGHER degree of believing.)

   The relevence is that a perfected faith allows that word to fully perform
   its work, i.e. "Walk before Me (behold the message of the cross by faith)
   and be thou blameless (simply do not resist the word and that word will
   fully ransform your heart - See Gal. 3:1-3/2 Corin 5:13-15/HEB 13:12-13)."

Continuing on...

Continuing on...

   Look how this all ties together!

   If Abraham's Mount Moriah exp. is superimposed over his believing with 
   no uncertainty, what do you have?  You have the word being able to come
   in all the way.  And then, you have that full exposure of sin which is
   symbolized by THREE DAYS.  Ahhhh, isn't it just coincedence (hardly) that
   Moses exp. up Mount Moriah is three days?  Isn't it something that it
   seems to all his perceptions he is cutting off salvation.  That is a type
   of the last generation surviving the cross albeit a very different cross
   than Christ's in one respect which is that He was a Forerunner and we
   yoke up with Him.  Note also, Abraham ascends a mountain (see Psalm 24/
   Heb 12 and slews of other texts).

   Anyway, Romans 4 makes all the sense with this *model*.  It makes NO
   sense with the gospel as popularly understood.
 
** What is the Holy Spirit's role in the scheme you've outlined?

   The Holy Spirit's role in entirely revelatory.  The Holy Spirit feeds us
   with the Word.  The Spirit gives us the message of the cross which is
   the power of God unto salvation.

** The gospel preached by the Apostle Paul, which we have received and wherein
   we stand, by which we are saved, if we hold fast what was preached, unless
   we have believed in vain, is that Christ died for our sins according to
   the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third
** day according to the scriptures, and that He was seen of men.  See 1Co.15.

   Yes, no doubt.  But, HOW does this truth save?  Did He bear our sins because
   the Father had to punish someone and so He dies instead of us?  Or, did
   He bear our sins because it is sin itself that condemns and His work is
   to remove sin from the heart?

   Either way, the cross is no less necessary.  No less.  Mark that please!
   In the way I understand it, I could not have borne the reality implicit
   in hearing the word all the way without a Forerunner to blaze that trail
   before me.  I need His cross.  I need His revelation.  The message of
   the cross is the power I need to save me.  And I need His love personally
   directed on me during the whole process.

   Not also, that the 'other' gospel says "Christ instead of us."  Well, I
   read that Paul was crucified WITH Christ.  I read that Christ calls us
   to bear HIS cross.  I read that He was the Lamb of God and that we are
   lambs as well and a last generation "follows the Lamb withersoever He
   goeth" (Rev somewhere) and that we are to suffer with Him outside the
   gate (the cross event) and this is tied to sanctification, i.e. being
   washed by the word.

I'll continue...

Continuing on...

** Again, I'm not quite clear from whence you come, Tony.  In this life only
** do you hope in Christ to be perfected?
   
   No, of course not.  But, God is longing for a generation to go all the
   way with Him.  The gospel, as presently understood, finds repugnant
   the very idea of a group even needing to go outside the gate with Christ.

   There is a BIG gospel misunderstanding here.

** Genesis 22 is indeed compelling!  Not only do we see the operation of
   faith, in both Abraham and Isaac, but also the love of God our Father and
   Jesus our Lord.  Not to mention God's provision of the ram "for a burnt
** offering in the stead of <Isaac>."
   
   In our stead as a Foreunner yes, but not in our stead as a group who will
   also go behind the veil and thus have the word expose all the filthiness
   of our flesh.  The last generation will know, this side of the 2nd coming,
   even as He is known.  A sword will come (Heb. 4:11-13).
 

   1) Do you hold that our Lord will not return (come again or appear, if
      you will) until an end-time group is perfected in the flesh, i.e.,
      made like Christ in earthen vessels?

      Yes.  There is a great controversy over issues with Satan.  (See
      Job 1:8-12 as one example.)  

      God needs to demonstrate His ability to save to the uttermost.  He
      needs to demonstrate His ability to transform our hearts.  This will
      also deonstrate the life that is inherent to righteousness and the
      death that is inherent to sin.  For when the righteous drink of the
      cup to its bitter dregs and survive and then the unrighteous do not,
      it will be demnstrated that the righteous can survive the same load
      of guilt the lost cannot.  The righteous, when perfected, will feel
      to be that sinner (thanks to sinful flesh), but will hold on as Jesus
      did.  The lost will not.

      There are so many metaphors describing this.  The birth pangs.  The
      storm that hits both houses.  The fiery furnace of Daniel.  So many
      metaphors that depict saved and lost as bearing the same thing.  The
      presently understood gospel accomadates this badly as well/sees no
      need for it.

      This will show that God's justice is not arbitrary, but is entirely
      according to realities implicit in sin and righteousness, even realities
      God Himself submits to (in Jesus Christ).  All of Satan's allegations,
      i.e. sin is a viable lifestyle are negated at the time of the judgment
      (Gen. 3:4-5).  Se also Heb. 11:39-40 as well as the Corinthians verse
      which speaks of a group who are BAPTIZED for the dead.  These verses 
      all dovetail so perfectly with this 'model.'

I'll continue...

Continuing On...

   2) Do you (and others) desire to be like our Lord sooner than later as
      part of that end-time group so that He may be seen as He is in glory
      to usher in the eternal kingdom?  In other words, do you believe God
      is waiting to perfect a few (willing) people in the flesh before
      Jesus appears?

      Yes.  But, we can hasten or delay that work (Isa 5/2 Peter 3:12).
      I do not want to be presumptuous and claim much desire.  God knows my
      heart better than I do.  May I have that desire!

   3) Do you believe that we who on the basis of God's Word by faith and
      commendation of the Holy Spirit see ourselves already made righteous
      in fact will not be made righteous because our eyes will be blind to
      the final revelation of Jesus Christ?

      How are you presently righteous?  Is not a righteous person a person
      who does no unrighteousness?  Might God be calling things which do not
      exist as though they did?

      Oh man, I need to parse this one.  What do you mean by "made righteous?"
      Do you mean God seeing us as righteous as Jesus?  I believe that as well,
      but just for a different reason, i.e. the basis as given in Romans 4.

      Do you mean imparted righteousness?  As in sinless in character?  As in
      presently living the same life of Christ?  No Christian will know that
      in this flesh even if they were.  None will claim that.

      The word is the power.  We need the final revelation (whatever it be).
      The word only works as it is perceived by the eye of faith.

					In Him Who Can Make Righteous,

					Tony