Conference yukon::christian_v7

It was quite a number of years ago that I became aware of this.  I don't 
have my Bible here today, so will have to wait on the references bit, but
the Bible speaks of resurrection and of a new earth and heavens.  My thought
is that we will occupy the new earth. In some ways, I expect life in the 
resurrection to quite resemble life now, but in other ways, it will be
absolutely and completely changed - no death, no sin, and a closer relationship
with God! Glorious!

Leslie

    re .0 (SUBSYS::LOPEZ)
    
    	What an interesting topic!
    
>	I can find no solid biblical substantiation that christians will
>go to heaven when they die or will spend eternity in heaven.
    
        Can you narrow the scope of what you mean?  Does "go to heaven when
    they die" mean the 'automatic transfer of the soul' that many believe
    in, as though from Adam's day onward, people either went directly to
    heaven or hell at death, or do you also mean that a person can't "go to
    heaven" if they are resurrected to heaven -- at some future point in
    time, but not immediately at their death?
    
        Are you making a distinction between the 'afterlife' that Jesus
    experienced and what mankind in general experiences (or has the
    potential to experience)?
    
    	Also, does the fact that you cannot substantiate that a person will
    "spend eternity in heaven" mean that you cannot substantiate the idea
    that people will, or can, "spend eternity" in *some* fashion that
    fulfills the Bible promise to the faithful of being granted "eternal
    life"?
    
        I assume that at some point in time, you'll document your current
    point of view.
    
        							-mark.
    
    PS., Please note that I'm doing my best to avoid the introduction of 
    my own beliefs as a JW into this note.  :-)

    2 Corinthians 5:8  
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the
         body, and to be present with the Lord.
    
    If we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.  Where is
    the Lord?
    
    Mike

    I remember Jesus' parable about a begger outside of a rich man's gate
    in Luke starting around 16:19.  Is that what you are looking for?

By the way, I was responding about life after the resurrection, not what 
happens immediately after death.  After Mark S.'s note, I realized that I
might not be responding to all of what Ace was talking about. I tend to 
think the spirits of the saints are with God after death, but I don't worry
about it too much because I know the resurrection is coming and that God is
able to keep that which He has promised.

Leslie

    
    LUKE 23:43 "I tell you this: today you will be in Paradise with me."

    I'm curious about the definition of heaven.  Rev says a new heaven and
    new earth.  But it talks about a new earth where there won't be any
    tears and all live by the light of the Son.  It doesn't say in heaven,
    but maybe this new earth really is heaven?
    
    Jill

    I kind of tend to think that the new earth is a new earth.  Kind of 
    like this one, but without death and corruption.  Have you read the
    childrens' story series, "Narnia Tales" by C.S.Lewis? Though fictional,
    the last book of the series has a pretty good picture of what a new
    earth might be like.  I think the last book is called "The Last Battle".
    As a grown-up, I still enjoy the stories, and we read a chapter or two
    a night as a family until my step-children started reading them on their 
    own and out-paced the night-time readings.

    Leslie

	All excellent attempts thus far 8*). I think Leslie and Jill's 
observations on the new earth ultimately leads to my beliefs as
well. But let's not rush ahead too fast!  8*)

	The first question is "Where do we go when we die?".

	I agree that beleivers are present with the Lord when they die as
	Mike and Wayne have pointed out (Cor). But exactly where is that?
	
	We could infer the third heaven. It is true the Lord is in the 3rd
	heaven and we will be with the Lord, but is this the only place the
	Lord is? Even if we conclude that we go to the third heaven when
	we die, it doesn't fit the traditional view of heaven (walking 
	streets of gold with mansions built next door to Jesus 8*)

	Paradise (the thief on the cross) was mentioned and the place where 	
	Lazarus and Abraham are together (Luke) also was mentioned.

	Where is Paradise? When the Lord said to the thief on the cross,
	"Today you will be with me in Paradise" where did the Lord go on
	that day (the day of His death). Did He go to "heaven? Or did
	He go to Paradise? I find no evidence of Him going to heaven
	until His after resurrection. So if He told the death-bed convert
	(thief) that He would be with Him in Paradise today but did not 
	go to heaven (my assumption)  that day, then where is Paradise? 
	It is also true that good guys (Abraham, Lazarus) end up in
	a pleasant place and bad guys end up in a terrible place. But
	I find could no evidence that the pleasant place was "heaven".

	Fathers house and mansions were also mentioned by Wayne, but
	I've never found evidence that the Father house refers to
	a place called heaven (though I believed it for years). The
	evidence seems to suggest that the Fathers house (His dwelling
	place) is the church. I think "mansions" is better translated
	"abodes" though Greek buffs could elaborate better than I.

	The second question is our eternal dwelling. Where is it?
	As Leslie and Jill have observed, that seems to be the new
	earth. 

	Please continue.

Thanks,
Ace

An astute observation, Ace!

There is no single reference to show that Christians go to heaven when they die,
rather Scripture must be compared with Scripture, and spiritual with spiritual,
to establish in our minds and hearts what God has prepared for them that love
Him.

That said, I'll try to be simple and concise:

Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in
me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told
you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be
also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." (Jn.14:1-4, KJV)

The Apostle Paul said, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but
the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given
to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom
teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with
spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual discerneth all things, yet he
himself is discerned of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he
may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1Co.12-16, KJV)

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we
have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which
is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we
that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be
unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now
He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto
us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by
faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent
from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that,
whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him." (2Co.5:1-9, KJV)

"And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and
toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end He may stablish your hearts
unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ with all His saints...I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others
which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you
by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of
the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive
and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore exhort one another
with these words." (1Th.3:12&13; 4:13-18, KJV)

What does "the earnest of the Spirit" say to you?

/Wayne

    Did I mention something?
    
    My intent was to quote only Scripture. :-)
    
    /Wayne
    
    P.S.  I asked what "the earnest of the Spirit" said to you.  All else
    is speculation.

    I think of heaven as simply being the courts of the Lord.  The 
    popular image of heaven seems to be the golden streets, pearly
    gates guarded by Peter, clouds, and a lot of harp strumming. How
    those images developed is something I'm not too sure about.

    I do remember that as a child I thought we became angels after we
    died.  I think that was due to the influence of stories like the 
    "Littlest Angel".

    Leslie

    Doesn't Revelations describe heaven?

 Revelation (no "s")

    Revelation 21:1-4,10-27 NIV
    
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the
    first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  I saw
    the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
    prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  And I heard
    a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with
    men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God
    himself will be with them and be their God.  He will wipe every tear
    from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or
    pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
    ...
    And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and
    showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from
    God.  It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that
    of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.  It had a
    great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the
    gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of
    Israel.  There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three
    on the south and three on the west.  The wall of the city had twelve
    foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the
    Lamb.  The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to
    measure the city, its gates and its walls.  The city was laid out like
    a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod
    and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it
    is long.  He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's
    measurement, which the angel was using.  The wall was made of jasper,
    and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.  The foundations of the
    city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first
    foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the
    fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh
    chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase,
    the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were
    twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of
    the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.  I did not see a
    temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its
    temple.  The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it,
    for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.  The
    nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring
    their splendor into it.  On no day will its gates ever be shut, for
    there will be no night there.  The glory and honor of the nations will
    be brought into it.  Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will
    anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose
    names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    
    
    

re.11

Wayne, say more about the "earnest of the Spirit" and how you think it
ties to this subject.

Thanks,
Ace

    Hi, Ace.
    
    The Holy Spirit is the seal or guarantee.  He was sent so that we would
    not be comfortless.  By Him we know Christ in us and us in Him.
    
    "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart
    of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But
    God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth
    all things, yea, the deep things of God." (1Co.2:9&10, KJV)
    
    I doubt if I've said anything you've not heard before.
    
    I'm impelled at this point to say no more.  I've presented the Word
    which the Spirit has used to give me a taste of heaven.
    
    Come quickly, Lord.
    
    /Wayne

It looks like some of the popular images of heaven came from the 
description of the new city of Jerusalem. But if the city comes
down from heaven, doesn't that mean its actual locale will be on 
the new earth?

Leslie

    Personally, I don't care where heaven is.  I just want to be with Jesus
    Christ.
    
    Re: New Jerusalem
    
    the cubic shape of the new city is an interesting study once you've
    been exposed to the tephillim that the Hebrew priests wore.
    
    Mike

re.17

Not so fast Wayne.  8*)

I can't disagree with what you;ve said at all. I agree wholeheartedly!
I just don't know how you mean to tie it in. You've possibly seen a
connection that nobody else has. 

Please elaborate.

Thanks,
Ace

re.19

Mike, I'm not at all familiar with the tephilliam-duma-thotchy 8*) you
mentioned. I'm interested that it may tie in. Say more please.

Thanks,
Ace

re.18 Leslie

It seems that way to me too. The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven
and resides on the new earth. It seems then that eternity is spent on
the new earth. This suggests to me that part of God's hearts desire is to be
with man. The contents of the city is remarkable. A street of gold
(not streets), a river of water of life proceeding out of the throne,
the tree of life running along the river on both sides of the street (
I think this means the river runs down the middle of the street). On 
the throne there is God and a lamb and a river flowing out of it. Seems
like a crowded throne. 8*)  I take this to be a picture of the Triune
God, that is, God the Father, God the Son as the redeeming Lamb, and
God the Spirit as the river of life reaching man.

What no mansions?  8*)

Ace

    I mean to tie it in as the Spirit would speak to the reader's heart in
    God's Word.
    
    As believers we have God's own Spirit in us.  He's now with us for
    eternity.  And He's the person with whom we'll spend eternity.  And He
    knows where He is, and He tells us that we'll be with Him where He is.
    
    We don't yet see what we shall be.
    
    How would you describe the concept of "home" to a blind person?  Would
    you describe that which can be seen, e.g., house, lawn, furniture,
    etc., or that which gives meaning, e.g., relationships, love, sense of
    belonging, etc.  Home is where the heart is.
    
    Heaven will fulfill the deepest longing of our hearts, AND MORE!
    
    Jesus said, pray after this manner:  "Our Father which art in heaven,
    Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as
    it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our
    debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but
    deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the
    glory, for ever. Amen." (Mt.6:9-13)
    
    The new heaven and new earth will be where God's will is done, where we
    are "home."  So what will be new?  God and man will be completely
    reconciled, heaven and earth in unity.
    
    My written words seem inadequate to evoke in others what I feel.  I can
    only point others to the Word which reveals God, and the Spirit who
    writes the Word on our hearts.
    
    /Wayne

    Notice at the very top of that passage of Revelation that I posted that
    it talks about a new heaven and a new earth.  Then the description is
    of the New Jeruselum coming out of heaven.  
    
    Does it say anywhere in the Bible that when we die or go home to be
    with Him that that will be in heaven?
    
    
    Jill
    

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for us.

The bible says that he is at the right hand of the father, who is in heaven.

Don't try to re-invent Christianity by reading the Bible on your own.

Rely on 2000 years of apostolic teaching.

/john

 re .22


   Let's go!

    
    Sometimes, I feel like I am there already. In fact, The Word says in
    Ephesians 2:6; "And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit
    together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus.
    
     Other times I have felt like I was in the belly of a whale. Or in the
    darkest pit of despair. Or like a donkey. Or like an eagle. Feelings
    are wonderful things, are they not?
    
     Bob

      Hi,
    
        I've read as far as reply #10.
    
        Some thoughts...
    
        We are the mansions that Christ is building.  Jesus doesn't
        presently have hammer and nails with which to build physical
        structures, He has High Priestly garments and His shed blood
        with which to raise (perfect in character/cleanse) a temple
        (His church).   Yeah, I believe garments and blood are
        metaphors/symbols.
    
        Mansion in John 16 is the noun form of abide in John 17 where
        Jesus said He will abide with His disciples.
    
        The last events I can find in scripture are the following sequence.
    
        Resurrection or translation of the redeemed.
        Millenium in heaven.
        Descent of New Jerusalem on earth (after millenium).
        Resurrection of lost on earth.
        Final destruction of lost/cleansing and restoration of earth.
    
        It seems the redeemed are on earth at this time, though I tend
        to believe God dwells there as well as the cross is the fullest
        demonstration of His love yet revealed.
    
        "You will be with Me in paradise."  The revelation of the cross
         is the fullest manifestation of God's glory yet seen.
    
        Before Christ died, the thief beheld paradise on earth in the
        cross of His Savior.
    
    						Tony
                                                              

    .0
    
    Ace,
    
    	I've not read the replies, but I concur with your finding in 914.0.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Hi Richard,
    
     It probably wouldn't hurt you to read the replies, and then you would
    be more able to make a comment based on what you have read. This would be
    important, as we all value questions and comments, and gives us all an
    opportunity to learn more.
    
     I just did a search (online Bible) and found the word heaven is used
    551 times in the entire Bible. 313 times in the Old Testamant, and 238
    times in the New Testament. There are too many to list them all here.
    
     Shalom,
    
     Bob

    .30
    
    Oh, no question that the word Heaven appears in the Bible.
    
    I don't think that was the question Ace raised in .0.
    
    Richard
    

re.23

Wayne,

>The new heaven and new earth will be where God's will is done, where we
>    are "home."  So what will be new?  God and man will be completely
>    reconciled, heaven and earth in unity.

	This is a very insightful observation. Keep it up.

Regards,
Ace

re.26  

>Let's go!

Well Okay!

We are. It's here already. Well sorta. Degree's you know. A foretaste now,
eventually a consummation. More later 8*). 

Well I investigated this matter again this weekend. Here's what I interpret
from the Bible concerning our two questions.

	1) Question: Where do the believers go when they die?

	From the Lord's reply to the thief on the cross it seems the
	believers and the just go to a place called Paradise 
	(Luke 23:42). This is restful and pleasant place as indicated by 
	the account of Lazarus with Abraham (Luke 16:25). It also seems to 
	be in Hades (though a pleasant part) since that is where the
	Lord went on the day He died (as did the thief) according to 
	Acts 2:24,27,31; Eph 4:9; Matt 12:40. Apparently, Paradise has
	some element of the Lord's presence to a fuller extent than is
	available while living on earth (as Paul indicated in Phil 1:23).
	I believe Paul's being with the Lord indicates a matter of degree
	also since Paul was with the Lord living Christ continually 
	(Phil 1:21).
	
	I can't find biblical substantiation for the concept of when you
	die you go to heaven. But Paradise seems pretty nice and restful. 

	2) Question: Where will we spend eternity?

	As already indicated by some of the replies here the final 
	destination of all believers is the new earth (Rev 21 & 22). 
	The description of the New Jerusalem on the new earth resembles the 	
	description that most of us have (or held) about heaven. There are no 	
	"mansions" in the descriptions as I formally believed. We don't get our 
	"wings". St. Peter is not waiting at the gates to determine whether you 
	belong or not. I'm not certain where all these concepts about "heaven" 	
	came from or when they were introduced but they weren't in the first
	century churches beliefs. We need the Bible. 

I appreciate all the comments (even the ones I did not specifically reply
to). Please continue....

Regards,
Ace  

	Okay. Concepts about heaven going once, going twice, gone. 8*)

	For sake of this note henceforth (unless someone really has a 
passion) let's assume that the believers final destination is described
in Rev 21 & 22. Other verses are allowed but Rev 21 & 22 will be focus of 
the conversation for the time being.  

	I'll start off with this observation.

	Rev 21:2, 9b-10

	"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of
heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

	"...Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and 
showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,"

	The New Jerusalem is called the bride, the wife of the Lamb. In 
Eph 5:22-33 Paul describes the Church's relationship to Christ as that
of a wife to her husband. Of course Christ is the bridegroom in John 3:29
and Rev 19:7. Paul also decribes the believers being betrothed to Christ the
Husband. 

	It seems to me that this city is not your normal city. 8*)

	Does the city (New Jerusalem) = the believers?

Please comment,
Ace

    
    My friend Bill and I have had discussions around this, and no conclusion 
    has yet been arrived at. I'd tend to believe it is a place where those
    who believe can go in and out of. Like most cities, I guess, except we
    won't be driving cars that rust and pollute the atmosphere.
    
    Will we have wings, as the Bible leads me to believe we will be like
    the angels, only a bit above them? Now does this mean we'll have access
    to a level of heaven they don't, or will be superior in someway or another
    I don't know? (levels of heavens staement from Paul's statement of him
    knowing a man who went to the third heaven.) It is believed at a later
    time Paul said it was he.
    
    Speculations whilest eating pizza 8-)
    
    Bob

      I think we'll be a little above the angels in the sense that
      we will have a heart-knowledge of God's goodness that they
      can't have as they won't have the 1st hand experience of 
      redemptive love that we will have.
    
    						Tony

    I don't believe angels have wings. :-)

    Don't they look like Cupid???

>    I don't believe angels have wings. :-)

You don't believe the bible?

Remember, there are nine ranks of angels in the bible:  seraphim, cherubim,
thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels.

The bible is 100% clear that at least some do have wings.

Exodus 37:9 ff

1 Kings 6:24 ff

Isaiah 6:2

Ezekiel 1:6 ff

Zechariah 5:5-10

/john

      Hi John,
    
        *You don't believe the Bible?
    
        That's a tall statement.  Nancy could have been kidding or could
        have not been familiar with some of those texts or could have
        forgotten.  I think Nancy has a rather high regard for the Bible
    	and (as such) your question is misplaced, i.e. IT DOESN'T BELONG.	
    
        Given that you believe the Bible, where does the Bible tell us
        that thrones, dominions, virtues, and principalities are different
        ranks of angels?
    
    						Tony

>        Given that you believe the Bible, where does the Bible tell us
>        that thrones, dominions, virtues, and principalities are different
>        ranks of angels?

St. Paul refers to thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Col 1:16
in a context that makes it clear he is referring to angelic beings.

Similarly in Romans 8:38 he refers to angels, principalities, and powers.

And in Ephesians 1:21 he refers to principalities, powers, mights (virtues)
and dominions again in an angelic context ("in the heavenly places far above
all...").

/john

Ephesians 6:12  
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
 against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
 spiritual wickedness in high places.

    principalities does not = angels.  Bleep.
    
    I do distinctly make a difference and not put cherubims and seraphims
    under the category of angels.. sorry.  But this in no wise says I do
    not believe in the Bible.
    
    This is one subject to which I have become most familiar.  When I have
    time I can enter what I found on my study of angels.  But to start
    off, the forms an angel may take and their gender are very clear in the
    Bible.

>    principalities does not = angels.  Bleep.

Bleep yourself.  Principalities are one of the nine ranks of angels in
the bible.

/john

Bleep, bleep.  8*)

I'm not a moderator but the angels discussion seems remotely related to the
topic. I'm not making a fuss but both topics might be better served
as separate topics.

Just a suggestion. (Though I'm probably to blame for making that "believers
don't get wings" comment.)  8*)

Regards,
ace