| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 907.1 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Wed Jul 31 1996 14:09 | 9 |
|
Hasn't this been discussed in several topics over the last few years? I know
this mod hasn't the time to search for all of them and move them here.
Jim
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| 907.2 | House Still Being Built Up | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 15:53 | 13 |
| Hi Jim,
I just meant from Topic #905.
However, the house is being built right now! There are scriptures
that can be brought to the dinner table that may never have seen
the light of day in here.
I guess I am suggesting that there is always more to learn and
thus what came before may not perfectly reflect what comes
after.
Tony
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| 907.3 | Crown of Glory (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:00 | 78 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 905.39 Pursue for the prize 39 of 54
YIELD::BARBIERI 71 lines 21-JUL-1996 08:54
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Hi,
Just a couple thoughts on reward. I can only really think of one
thing people can have in verying amounts after the 2nd Coming.
The Bible refers a few times to the crucifixion of our flesh. This
is an experience which has occured with Christians to varying degrees.
Many Christian have only had minor experiences dealing with the lusts
of the flesh.
After Christ comes, we will have incorruptible flesh and it won't
exert a pull such as Galatians 5:16-24 or Romans 8:1-9 refers to.
It won't have a terrible 'law of sin' in it as Romans 7:18,23-24.
It won't introduce terrible temptations to the mind. Neither will
there be fallen angels and evil people to tempt us.
I believe God's love shows us our sin and the last generation will
be exposed to all of their sin - and will give it all up in repentance -
"Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"
(Rev. 14:12).
Not only that, but after they are perfected, they will venture behind
the veil where their forerunner went before them. This outpouring of
light will expose virtually all of the lusts of the flesh and this
will cause the remnant to 'feel' so incredibly evil. This will also be
the mark of the beast movement and they will be tremendously tempted
by the world. However, they are righteous and they will overcome by faith.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the
suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace
of God, might taste death for everyone.
Every denial of the flesh is a dying to self experience. It is a
tasting of the cross. Every Christian has a crown of gold on their head -
some inward experience of faith wrought out in sinful flesh. Some more
than others.
The last generation has the faith of Jesus. They have an experience of
the crucifixion of the flesh that is greater than any previous generation.
The remembrance of their battle of faith against all temptation is their
reward.
After the 2nd coming, there will be no oppurtunity to have such an
experience. I happen to believe there are unfallen worlds - creatures
who have never fallen who don't know the struggle to obey that we know.
I can think of no greater reward that cannot be attained after the 2nd
coming, outside of salvation itself, than the remembrance of the experience
of crucifying the flesh with all its lusts. Imagine throughout eternity
having an unfallen angel ask, "What was it like to serve God while
encumbered as you were?" What a joy it will be to respond and what greater
joy it will be to be able to testify to the experience of the remnant who
goes behind the veil and can recount what it was like to see all the evil
in sinful flesh, to feel all that horrow, and to resist by faith!
That to me is the crown of glory. That resisting against sin while it
is all exposed. For
Hebrews 12:4
You have not yet resisted unto bloodshed striving against sin.
And
Hebrews 13:12-13
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own
blood, suffered outside the gate.
Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
Tony
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| 907.4 | (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:00 | 16 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 10 lines 22-JUL-1996 12:34
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re.39
Hi Tony,
>Not only that, but after they are perfected, they will venture behind
>the veil where their forerunner went before them.
Do you know that we can enter the Holy of Holies today?
ace
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| 907.5 | Answering A Question With A Question (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:01 | 16 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 905.49 Pursue for the prize 49 of 54
YIELD::BARBIERI 9 lines 22-JUL-1996 13:05
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Hi Ace,
Would you differentiate entering the Holy of Holies
from inhabiting Mount Zion (Hebrews 12:25-29)?
If you see a difference in the two, just what difference
do you see?
Tony
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| 907.6 | (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:01 | 16 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 10 lines 22-JUL-1996 19:26
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Hi Tony,
re.49
What do you think?
ace
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| 907.7 | What I Think (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:02 | 27 |
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Note 905.51 Pursue for the prize 51 of 54
YIELD::BARBIERI 20 lines 30-JUL-1996 14:08
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re: -1
Hi Ace,
I think entering behind the veil and inhabiting Mount Zion
are both metaphors for seeing God unveiled. God's glory
exposes sin. It is very painful to see our sin and thus
sin is exposed progressively as we are able to bear seeing
it.
Thus, part of God's redemptive work is the veil.
Jesus went behind the veil at Calvary. We have full access
to the Holy of Holies, but (in love), God will grant us that
access when we can survive the experience.
Tony
|
| 907.8 | A new and living way (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:02 | 41 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 905.52 Pursue for the prize 52 of 54
SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 34 lines 30-JUL-1996 18:34
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Hi Tony,
re.51
I noticed how you referred to entering the Holy of Holies as a
future event which prompted my question. I understand why you believe the
what you do.
I can enjoy the experience of entering into the Holy of Holies
today. In fact, I must as a provision to live a victorious christian life.
"Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of
Holies by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He dedicated
for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a great Priest over
the house of God, let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true
heart..." Heb 10:19-22
"Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of
grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace for timely help."
Heb 4:16
The "throne of grace" signified by the propitiation-cover (the
mercy seat) within the Holy of Holies (Ex 25:17,21) which is the throne
of both God and the Lamb (Rev 22:1).
By this we can see that a new and living way was cut for the believers
to enter into the Holy of Holies to receive mercy and grace for timely
help. This is not a future event, rather a current provision. In our
experience we may choose not enter, but the way is currently open
nonetheless.
Regards,
Ace
|
| 907.9 | Word Has Much More To Say (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:03 | 109 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 905.53 Pursue for the prize 53 of 54
YIELD::BARBIERI 102 lines 31-JUL-1996 08:31
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Hi Ace,
I truly mean this not as boasting, but just to give you an
inkling that I am somewhat aware of the theme of the book
of Hebrews.
I memorized it.
The entire book is an exhortation for a corporate body of
God's faithful to do something never done before.
Yes, the exhortation is there to enter the holy of holies.
It is also there to perfectly rest in Christ, to go on unto
perfection, and to inhabit Mount Zion. Each and every one
of these are synonymous expressions.
I explained why it is that God in His mercy has veiled the
full beauty of His face from my eyes. You have chosen not
to respond to this explanation.
Unless I hear an explanation of another belief that shows that
spiritual reality does not work as I briefly mentioned, your
reply is significantly incomplete for me.
Isaiah 33:17-18a
Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will see the land that is vry far off.
Your heart will meditate on terror.
Isaiah 28:19-20
As often as it goes out it will take you
For morning by morning it will pass over,
And by day and by night;
It will be a terror just to understand the report.
For the bed is too short for a man to stretch out on,
And the covering so narrow that he cannot wrap himself in it.
(no covering when one is behind the veil.)
Psalm 24:3-6
Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
Or who may stand in His holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol,
Nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive blessing from the Lord,
And righteousness from the God of His salvation.
This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face. Selah
Jeremiah 30:5-7;24;31:2
For thus says the Lord:
"We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not of peace.
Ask now and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?
Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has
done it. And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.
Thus says the Lord:
"The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness -
Israel when I went to give him rest."
As I study what it means to enter behind the veil, I see that
sin cannot be present in the heart for one to survive. That
kind of glory consumes sin and thus would consume the sinner.
Proverbs 20:8
A king who sits on the throne of judgment scatters all evil
with His eyes.
Proverbs 20:30
Blows that hurt cleanse away evil, as do stripes the inner
depths of the heart.
This is the revelation that saves, but unless it is progressive
(and not all at once) it will destroy.
Proverbs 17:3
The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold,
but the Lord tests the hearts.
I think your posture is missing a tremendous amount of scriptural
support.
Just as surely as Hebrews exhorts us to enter behind the veil,
it exhorts us to inhabit Mount Zion where our God is a consuming
fire.
The exhortations are the same.
And preparation is necessary. Psalm 24 describes the spiritual
state of one ready to ascend the hill of the Lord.
Tony
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| 907.10 | Come forward *boldly*... (from 905) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:04 | 48 |
| <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 905.54 Pursue for the prize 54 of 54
SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 41 lines 31-JUL-1996 09:28
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re.53
Tony,
Believers don't enter the Holy of Holies based on their own merit.
We stand before God covered by His blood. When God looks at us He sees
Christ. Our sins are forgiven and forgotten, we are cleased, positionally
sanctified, and reconciled to God. Now we need to come to the throne of
grace (Heb 4:16) to our High Priest, Christ to recieve Him as our daily
supply. Where is the throne of grace? It is in the Holy of Holies. Where is
our High Priest? In the Holy of Holies. The only way we can enter the Holy of
Holies is by the blood of Jesus. Paul is exhorting those who would be fearful
of entering the Holy of Holies to participate in the new and living access to
God and come forward *boldly*, not cowering before a mighty and terrible
consumming God, but as brothers of Christ and sons of God to receive timely
grace. What is timely grace? It is grace to meet your immediate needs. Not
later, not once, but now. This is obtained at the throne of grace in the Holy
of Holies.
In the Old Testment the high priest went once a year behind the
veil to sprinkle the blood on the propitiation cover to make atonement
for the people. In the new and living way the veil that separated the
Holy of Holies from the Holy Place has been torn, access is immediate and
continual. It's really up to us whether we enter to recieve Christ on a moment
by moment basis. We should not live in the condemnation of our sins or what we
are. No amount of good living, self deprecation, self realization will ever
qualify you to come to the throne of grace in the Holy of Holies. We boldly
enter because of what He accomplished, His merit alone. This is not an
option. This is His design. We need to take His new and living way.
"Having therefore brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of
Holies *by the blood of Jesus*,". Heb 10:19
Memorization is good but we also need a spirit of wisdom and
revelation. Otherwise, the Bible becomes a mental thing.
Regards,
Ace
|
| 907.11 | Our Seeing Is Progressive | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Jul 31 1996 23:22 | 70 |
| re.53
Hi Ace,
*Believers don't enter the Holy of Holies based on their own merit.
I agree. Was there something I said that caused you to conclude
that I may have thought we enter the Holy of Holies based on our
merit? If so, could you quote where I alluded such?
I know I said that we can't SURVIVE such a full revelation while sin
is in our hearts, however as it is entirely Jesus' work to cleanse
my heart, the merit that is our preparation is entirely His. I can
only enter the Holiest as I finally stop doing anything of my own
and *completely* rest in His enablings.
*We stand before God covered by His blood.
Given that the blood is the word (revelation - see John 6 esp. verses
53,63), what does it mean to you to be covered by revelation?
Do you think the following is relevent?
Isaiah 28:19-20
As often as it goes out it will take you
For morning by morning it will pass over,
And by day and by night;
It will be a terror just to understand the report.
For the bed is too short for a man to stretch out on,
And the covering so narrow that he cannot wrap himself in it.
My present understanding is that the blood cleanses us *from sin*. It
does so, in part, by revealing it. But, this is a progressive work.
We cannot drink the whole cup. Thus the blood we are covered by is
the same as the word yet unrevealed to us.
I wrote a really long reply, but my discernment is to stop here! But,
let me just add a couple quick thoughts...
I believe God reveals to us progressively as He must. Holy and Most
Holy refer to experiences God produces in us. Jesus as Lamb is our
Sacrifice and as Lamb, *Jesus* went behind the veil. Jesus as High
Priest is the installer of the merits of the cross in our hearts. He
sprinkles (installs) the blood (message of the cross) into the sanctuary
(our hearts) which cleanses it (takes away sin).
Holy Apartment - That High priestly ministry which is a type of Christ
showing us how good He is to such an extent that we
are being cleansed, but fall short of character per-
fection. Thus Christ's manifestation of Himself in
His believers is incomplete in a significant sense.
Most Holy Apartment - That High Priestly ministry which is a type of
Christ showing us how good He is to such a fullness
that He (in a sense) is fully manifested in His
believers. The 'spiritual house' is built up. They
are having the Most Holy experience; something better
than a holy one. Here is the time when the mystery
of God is finished (Rev 10?). The mystery of God
is Christ in you the hope of glory (Colossians). The
finishing of the mystery is the finishing of the mani-
festation of Christ in His believers. He has produced
the most holy experience.
Either way, the work is entirely Christ's. We merit NOTHING. But,
still, it is progressive. We cannot see the report all at once.
Take Care,
Tony
|
| 907.12 | | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Thu Aug 01 1996 18:04 | 50 |
| Hi Tony,
re. 11
> I can only enter the Holiest as I finally stop doing anything of my own
> and *completely* rest in His enablings.
I can't speak for you. Your experience is what it is. I have and
do enter into the Holy of Holies to receive the enabling Christ. By this
are you saying that you are not boldly entering into the Holy of Holies?
>Given that the blood is the word (revelation - see John 6 esp. verses
> 53,63), what does it mean to you to be covered by revelation?
Tony, this is a non-sensical question. When the Lord mentions His
blood separate from His flesh, He is referring to His death (John 6:53).
To drink His blood is to receive by faith all that He has accomplished by
shedding His blood for us. In v63 He speaks of Himself as the Spirit who
gives life in resurrection. In these verses (in this chapter really) we see
His death and His resurrection and how we as fallen sinners can receive
redemption back to God and eternal life by the Spirit who gives life.
Blood, Word, and Revelation are not synonyms. If you mix them up, you'll
end up believing all sorts of strange notions. You can't treat the words
of the Bible strictly like a math problem.
>Do you think the following is relevent?
(front deleted)
> For the bed is too short for a man to stretch out on,
> And the covering so narrow that he cannot wrap himself in it.
It might mean that if you got a better night's sleep your
thinking would be a little clearer on this matter. 8*) 8*) (Jez funnin)
I agree that what God reveals to us (which is just Himself) is progressive.
But our progress can be hindered by the veils on our heart. The more veils
that are stripped off, the more we will be able to see. Our christian walk
will be much enhanced if we see our rights of passage into the Holy of
Holies. We should stop looking at our condition (poor and pitiful as it
may be) and look away unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Then we will come forward boldly to receive our daily, timely, supply of
grace.
Tony, how do you receive timely grace to meet your situations?
Regards,
Ace
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| 907.13 | Thanks Ace | CPCOD::JOHNSON | A rare blue and gold afternoon | Thu Aug 01 1996 18:45 | 11 |
| Ace,
You know how sometimes when you read something, a particular quote jumps
out at you as being a great line, a wonderful way to express a particular
idea? Well, a line in your last reply did that to me.
"You can't treat the words of the Bible strictly like a math problem."
What a great sentence, and so true!
Leslie
|
| 907.14 | Experientially We Are Much In Agreement | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Aug 04 1996 21:59 | 73 |
| re: Note 907.12
Hi Ace,
* I can't speak for you. Your experience is what it is. I have and
*do enter into the Holy of Holies to receive the enabling Christ. By this
*are you saying that you are not boldly entering into the Holy of Holies?
Ace, I hope the following gets through LOUD AND CLEAR!
In terms of experience, virtually everything you are speaking about as
your Christian experience, I agree with. I just happen to believe that
we are applying different *terms* to this experience.
I believe everything you describe is correctly *termed* an experience
that applies to the holy compartment of the sanctuary.
We ARE NOT disagreeing on experience, we are disagreeing on what we
think is the correct scriptural term that applies to the experience.
You make a huge mistake when you read that I don't believe I am in the
Holy of Holies (as I understand this) and (from that) infer that I
am looking to sin and not to Christ, or not receiving the enabling Christ,
etc., etc. Everything you seem to have 'surmised' about my experience
on the basis of my believing I am not yet in the Most Holy is incorrect
for I fully agree with 'experience' as you describe it and yet believe
this is an experience consistent with Christ in the holy (and not most holy).
>Given that the blood is the word (revelation - see John 6 esp. verses
> 53,63), what does it mean to you to be covered by revelation?
* Tony, this is a non-sensical question. When the Lord mentions His
*blood separate from His flesh, He is referring to His death (John 6:53).
*To drink His blood is to receive by faith all that He has accomplished by
*shedding His blood for us. In v63 He speaks of Himself as the Spirit who
*gives life in resurrection. In these verses (in this chapter really) we see
*His death and His resurrection and how we as fallen sinners can receive
*redemption back to God and eternal life by the Spirit who gives life.
*Blood, Word, and Revelation are not synonyms. If you mix them up, you'll
*end up believing all sorts of strange notions. You can't treat the words
*of the Bible strictly like a math problem.
Well, if blood, revelation, and the word are not synonyms, I believe they
are awful close. To 'drink in' is synonymous with *partaking by faith*, no?
What would you call drinking in (in the spiritual)? I can think of only
one thing to drink in by faith - the word as given by the Holy Spirit.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. What can one drink
in that is not revelatory???
To me to drink in the blood is the same thing as drinking in the message of
the cross which is the power of God unto salvation.
We are covered by the blood. And the blood is something we 'perceive'
(i.e. DRINK). I believe to be covered by the blood is synonymous with being
mercifully veiled from a full revelation of the message of the cross for
it is God's glory which reveals sin and God can't show us our sin all at
once. We don't drink the full cup all at once.
>Do you think the following is relevent?
(front deleted)
> For the bed is too short for a man to stretch out on,
> And the covering so narrow that he cannot wrap himself in it.
* It might mean that if you got a better night's sleep your
*thinking would be a little clearer on this matter. 8*) 8*) (Jez funnin)
But, seriously Ace, you seem to be disregarding these texts which refer
to faithful people *seeing* something (and in an apocalyptic sense).
*I agree that what God reveals to us (which is just Himself) is progressive.
*But our progress can be hindered by the veils on our heart. The more veils
*that are stripped off, the more we will be able to see.
I'll continue...
|
| 907.15 | Ace Hits A Nail On The Head | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Aug 04 1996 22:00 | 79 |
| re: Note 907.12 (contd.)
EXACTLY! YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD!
What do you think the sanctuary system is a model of? God to Moses: "Build
Me a sanctuary *that I may dwell among them*." It is the hearts of the faith-
ful, both individually and corporately.
If there is any kind of veil in the heart, the experience is something less
than the Most Holy. If some cleansing has taken place, if Christ is there,
but there are still veils (as you put it) it is a holy experience.
When the 7th trump sounds, the mystery of God is finished. This is when
Christ is so fully manifested in us that the experience is a most holy one.
He has all of our hearts. No more *veils*.
If the sanctuary symbolizes our hearts and as you just acknowledged veils
in our hearts, how can you say the experience is an *unveiled* one???
*Our christian walk
*will be much enhanced if we see our rights of passage into the Holy of
*Holies. We should stop looking at our condition (poor and pitiful as it
*may be) and look away unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith.
*Then we will come forward boldly to receive our daily, timely, supply of
*grace.
I agree that we should not look to self, but to Christ. I also agree that
we should do all we can to drink in more and more grace. To believe that
I am enjoying a holy experience in my heart (and not the most holy) is not
to be taken to mean that I believe I ought look at my condition or that I
ought to suppress in any way from receiving grace. But, I am a sinner.
I do make mistakes. My experience is less than a most holy one. And
remember, Christ's work as High Priest is one of sprinkling the blood so
as to cleanse sinful hearts. The apartment of sanctuary He inhabits as
High Priest speaks not of the status of His heart, but of the status of
ours.
*Tony, how do you receive timely grace to meet your situations?
Looking to Christ. The specifics depend. Sometimes, sin seems so oppressive
that the Word itself seems too big a course and all I can do is listen to
hymns of praise. Sometimes drinking from the word. Sometimes hearing the
testimony of others. Sometimes drinking in God's revelation of creation
through faith. Sometimes on my knees in prayer.
I coupled a comment from your last reply with one from a previous reply...
*You can't treat the words of the Bible strictly like a math problem.
* Memorization is good but we also need a spirit of wisdom and
*revelation. Otherwise, the Bible becomes a mental thing.
Ace, I'll be the first to admit that I tend to intellectualize things.
But, my personal experience including my drinking in the word is not
altogether heartless.
While I have the tendency you allude to, I think in this case, you err.
Nothing you have said about experience is something I disagree with. I
simply believe the most holy experience is that time when we see all of the
glory of God. There are no more veils in our hearts for when we see Him
as He is (fully), we see all of ourselves. All is exposed. Every lust
and passion of sinful flesh is made fully known to us. This is the report
that is a terror to read and one for whom we required a Forerunner else we
could never survive reading such a report.
I don't think it is a 'mental' thing or 'math' to diligently study the
book of Hebrews (as an example) and see a common thread which is simply this:
God, in Hebrews, is hammering down the idea of a stupendous apocalyptic
experience He is exhorting the last generation to have. He echoes this theme
in various ways.
Resting fully in Christ, inhabiting Mount Zion, partaking of solid food (and
not just milk), going on unto perfection, and yes...
Following our Forerunner behind the veil into the Most Holy.
Take Care and God Bless,
Tony
|
| 907.16 | direct link to God | SOLVIT::NIEMAN | | Wed Aug 07 1996 18:51 | 4 |
| from reading the gospels,I understood that the access to heaven was
open to all,under Christ's sacrifice and,God tearring assunder the veil
in the Jerusalem temple.What say we just leave it at that,all else is
trivial or janngling.
|
| 907.17 | We have come to Mt. Zion... | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Thu Aug 08 1996 17:20 | 26 |
| re.15
Hi Tony,
I think we differ fundamentally in that you view the experience of Holy of
Holies as a final destination or a state of achieved perfection. I believe
that it is the process whereby perfection is attained through receiving
the supply of grace.
One thing you keep saying that I don't understand...
" There are no more veils in our hearts for when we see Him
as He is (fully), we see all of ourselves. All is exposed. Every lust
and passion of sinful flesh is made fully known to us. This is the report
that is a terror to read and one for whom we required a Forerunner else we
could never survive reading such a report."
Help me understand why you believe this "terror" is to be our experience.
Hebrews speaks of the terror of the Mosaic mountain, but we have come to
Mt. Zion a beautiful high place of God.
This terror experience you mention is out of character with our salvation
and standing before God as sons.
Thanks,
Ace
|
| 907.18 | | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Thu Aug 08 1996 17:25 | 12 |
|
re.17
Are you certain?
Jesus died on the cross, God tore the veil in two, now we can go to
heaven, everything else is trivial.
Is this what you mean?
ace
|
| 907.19 | Trial Not Inconsistent With Gospel | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 12 1996 22:54 | 27 |
| Hi Ace,
I touched on this somewhat in replies 903.71-73. I'll
elaborate, time permitting.
Briefly though, being crucified with Christ is not a
painless experience. The chastening of the Lord involves
pain.
Heb 12:11
Now no chastening seems joyful for the present time, but
grievous. Neverthless afterward it yields the peaceable
fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
From an apocalyptic context, scripture refers to a body of
people as drinking the cup to its dregs, being smitten with
the sword that smote Shephard, eating the marriage supper
of the Lamb, being in the deep waters, being burned in a fire,
having birth pangs, and more.
I think there is pain and I think this is entirely in harmony
with the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Peter said something about not being surprised about fiery
trial coming upon you.
Tony
|
| 907.20 | despair | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 13 1996 14:08 | 50 |
| Hi Tony,
I'd like to address a couple of things you've been saying. Mostly your
use of the words despair and guilt. This might seem like a picky point
but please bear with me.
You say that on the cross Jesus took on all the sin of the world and
became that sin. That He had to overcome the guilt and the temptation
to despair and to prevail.
You use the OT verses that talk about terror at seeing all that sin.
You use Romans 7 to show that we all have cross experiences now, where
we need to see our sin and not despair but by faith prevail.
All this is true. I just want to come against the use of the word
despair. In the dictionary it is defined to mean:
1 Utter lack of hope
2 Something that causes great grief of torment
Personally, when I experience a Romans 7 experience I feel pain,
anguish, sadness, and dirtyness like a feeling of being unclean. But I
never feel hopeless. Christ already died for all my sins, past,
present,and future. And although it is intensely painful and difficult
to face them, I know that I am forgiven and the result is always joy
and peace.
We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not
in despair; (2 Corinthians 4:8)
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear
has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in
love. (1 John 4:18)
So I would say that all the OT verses that talk about total terror when
confronted with the truth about ourselves have a different light now.
If you notice you didn't use any verses about terror from the NT.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has
gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17)
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I
declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'" And
yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.
(Hebrews 4:3)
Jill
|
| 907.21 | 100% Agreement | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 13 1996 14:50 | 16 |
| Hi Jill,
You are 100% correct. In case I said it wrong, what I mean
to say is that Jesus overcame the *temptation* to despair.
He responded to the cross exp. without despairing. The lost
respond to the cross exp. by despairing.
I am not sure if it is true that one who is not perfect
never despairs at all, but I do believe that faith and despair
are mutually exclusive.
If I said that Jesus despaired, I was grievously mistaken. My
intention has always been to mean that Jesus was TEMPTED to
despair, but never submitted to it. To despair is to sin.
Tony
|
| 907.22 | Terror | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 13 1996 16:50 | 50 |
| re: Note 907.20
Hi Jill,
I reread your note a little more carefully and want to respond to the
following...
*You use the OT verses that talk about terror at seeing all that sin.
*You use Romans 7 to show that we all have cross experiences now, where
*we need to see our sin and not despair but by faith prevail.
*So I would say that all the OT verses that talk about total terror when
*confronted with the truth about ourselves have a different light now.
*If you notice you didn't use any verses about terror from the NT.
*Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has
*gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17)
I'll be so bold as to link the following:
*You use the OT verses that talk about terror at seeing all that sin.
*So I would say that all the OT verses that talk about total terror when
*confronted with the truth about ourselves have a different light now.
Why Jill?
If the O.T. is describing an experience that is apocalyptic and calls
it terrifying, is it not yet the inspired word of God? Or are you saying
that the OT never talks about events that are endtime? Or do you equate
terror with despair?
Hebrews 12 refers to Moses being exceedingly afraid when he went up Mt.
Sinai, i.e. "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling." Hebrews then goes
on to say, BUT you are not going up the mountain that burned with fire,
etc., you are going up Mount Zion! (Note also that this follows the
chastening texts of Heb. 12.)
Why wouldn't going up Mount Zion be terrifying especially in light of
the contrast of the two mountains in Hebrews? Did not Moses rest in
Christ? Like Abraham, don't you think this spiritual giant who was
willing to give up his eternal salvation (Ex. 32:32), saw Jesus' day
and was glad? Did he not see that same message of the cross which is
the power of God unto salvation?
I believe it will be terrifying and if your Romans 7 experiences have
not been terrifying, perhaps it is because you are a spiritual child
(as I am) and have not seen sin in the same magnitude that Christ saw it.
Tony
|
| 907.23 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Aug 13 1996 19:54 | 6 |
| .22
Do you really believe that we are capable as seeing sin the same as
Christ?
|
| 907.24 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Wed Aug 14 1996 01:46 | 4 |
|
..I wish..
|
| 907.25 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Aug 14 1996 17:01 | 1 |
| ...I'd rather be perfect...
|
| 907.26 | re .22 Terror | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Fri Aug 16 1996 20:00 | 64 |
| re .22
Hi Tony,
I believe it will be terrifying and if your Romans 7 experiences
have not been terrifying, perhaps it is because you are a
spiritual child (as I am) and have not seen sin in the same
magnitude that Christ saw it.
Well you do have me here! I am just a child and I am hiding from a
lot of sin, pain and truth. I admit it.
However, there are two different mountains and the covenent is
different now.
Hebrews 12 refers to Moses being exceedingly afraid when he went
up Mt. Sinai, i.e. "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling."
Hebrews then goes on to say, BUT you are not going up the mountain
that burned with fire, etc., you are going up Mount Zion! (Note
also that this follows the chastening texts of Heb. 12.)
Exactly, the mountain of the new covenent, of judgement and
forgiveness and grace.
Why wouldn't going up Mount Zion be terrifying especially in light
of the contrast of the two mountains in Hebrews?
The mountains are different, Mt. Sinai was the old covenent, Mt Zion
is the new.
If the O.T. is describing an experience that is apocalyptic and
calls it terrifying, is it not yet the inspired word of God? Or
are you saying that the OT never talks about events that are
endtime? Or do you equate terror with despair?
Well, you have a point here. If it is talking about both the current
struggles and the endtime then it does use the word terror. But I do
distinguish "terror" from "fear". Terror has an element of despair of
hopelessness in it.
After studying the passages that use "terror", I only see terror
applied to the wrath of God against the faithless, not to the holy
fear of God. The verse about Moses uses "afraid" not "terrified".
Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to
evildoers.
Hebrews 12 refers to Moses being exceedingly afraid when he went
up Mt. Sinai, i.e. "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling."
I'm not saying that I'm not afraid to face the cross. I'm just saying
that there shouldn't be any hopelessness or despair in the experience.
We have been promised grace, enough to cover any sin. (2 Cor 12:9)
I don't think that Moses is responding in hopelessness here, just in
Holy fear.
Going back to the note with the terror verses (905.53), only Jeremiah
30:5-7;24;31:2 can perhaps be applied to the faithful children of God
and this says that they will be saved out of it. All the others are
talking about how God's wrath will be poured out on the unfaithful.
This is different. One would expect the unfaithful to respond in
terror. What we are discussing here is how the faithful, or the
saved, will respond.
Jill
|
| 907.27 | Hebrews 10:1-4 So Relevent!!! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Aug 18 1996 13:01 | 67 |
| re: .23
Hi Nance,
*Do you really believe that we are capable as seeing sin the same
*as Christ?
NO! Jesus was the Forerunner behind the veil. We FOLLOW! This
implies a difference, no? We see our sin as we believe by faith
that One trod the steps before us. This is a TREMENDOUS assurance!
Jesus had no such advantage. He trod the winepress ALONE. We follow
believing one paved that thorny path before us (in part so that we
could walk it as well).
Hi Jill,
I think our main differences on terror are semantic. That is, I
agree with the MEANING you use. I don't believe the saints will
experience hopelessness or despair. I don't see how it is you
maneuver around the inspired word describing Israel (who I believe
are God's faithful - though I sure don't want to get into that)
as experiencing terror upon reading the report - all in an endtime
setting. *But*, as to *meaning*, I agree with you.
I think we see covenants differently and my view of covenants has
been changing a lot over the years.
I now see the covenants this way...
The old covenant is the experience of the faithful person wherein
the light he has responded to by faith is shadow. Or to put another
way - PARTIAL. It is enough light to convert. It is enough light
to begin a cleansing of heart, but it is insufficient to finish the
job (see Heb. 10:1-4).
The new covenant is not yet experienced. It was enunciated as
future to the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews which is
also future to the cross event. It is simply that time when the
corporate body of God's faithful rests on so much light that it can
be characterized as very image (in contrast to shadow). This amount
of light PERFECTS. Recall that the new covenant is the writing of
the law (character) of God in the heart. (See Heb. 10:1-4 again.)
Surely, this has not yet been accomplished and thus the new covenant
is yet future! God still looks at us and can say, "They have not yet
entered My rest." Hebrews is clear...the rest spoken of is one
wherein sin (the source of unrest) is eradicated from the heart.
Now, I personally believe we will see more light throughout eternity.
But, very image (to me) means a few things. It means all misconcep-
tions about God are gone. It also means that the cross is seen to
enough of a degree that the motivating love entirely perfects the
conscience (Heb. 10:1-4 AGAIN ;-) ). It can also enable one to
go behind the veil, read the report and survive the experience (yes,
no hopelessness, no despair).
That is the only difference I see in covenants.
New - very image. Produces perfection in character. Enables behind
the veil experience, i.e. it can be survived.
Old - shadow. Partial. Revelation which can convert and thus
cleanse, but can't perfect the conscience. Cannot enable the
behind the veil experience for it would not be survived with
this 'partial' revelation.
HEBREWS!! What a book!!
Tony
|
| 907.28 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 19 1996 15:43 | 11 |
| Hi Tony,
re .27
That is the only difference I see in covenants.
What about being cleansed by His blood so that we can come boldly into
His presence now? So we be with Him while still being impure. To the
pure all things are pure. Thats why its called the good news.
Jill
|
| 907.29 | Romans 4 | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 19 1996 16:52 | 12 |
| Hi Jill,
Romans 4 again.
God calls those things which be not as though they are.
Are you saying God is calling something as it is as though
it is?
If so, I differ given what Romans 4 tells me.
Tony
|
| 907.30 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 19 1996 17:27 | 11 |
| re .28
Hi Tony,
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John
3:16
Jill
|
| 907.31 | Where Is The Connection??? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 19 1996 17:32 | 14 |
| Hi Jill,
I am assuming it was meant to be a re: .29.
What is the purpose of that scripture as a response to .29?
Need .29 imply that God does not love the world or that He
did not give His Son that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have eternal life?
How so?
Straining to find a connection!
Tony
|
| 907.32 | re .31 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 19 1996 17:48 | 25 |
| re .31
John 3:3-12
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the
kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he
cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom
of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born
again.'
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with
everyone born of the Spirit."
9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand
these things?
11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to
what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how
then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jill
|
| 907.33 | OK | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 19 1996 18:38 | 8 |
| Hi Jill,
If I find a connection, I will let you know.
Interesting that you would cite John 3:16, that God loves
the *world*! Both saved and lost.
Tony
|
| 907.34 | My Take | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 20 1996 12:08 | 21 |
| re .32
Hi Jill,
I can't come up with anything beyond what I thought I saw when
I first read it.
Which is that you refer to me as being Nicodemus, 'a teacher of
Israel' and are trying to show me that I can't know anything
outside of the promptings of the Holy Spirit. And that I could
use this counsel.
I think that is wonderful counsel, however, in conjunction with
such counsel, I need support from the Word of God (as breathed
by the Spirit of course), for your position.
To provide such counsel without offering any scriptural support
for your position is unacceptable (for me) in so far as
substantiating your position.
Tony
|
| 907.35 | Correction | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 20 1996 14:46 | 10 |
| Hi Jill,
By 'position', I wasn't referring to John 3, I was referring to
Romans 4 and your position that we already are really and actually
clean.
What is now clean Jill, your heart? Does your heart still sin
once in awhile? Can a cleansed heart sin?
Tony
|
| 907.36 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 20 1996 14:49 | 13 |
| Hi Tony,
Actually I was using the John verses to show how being "born again" can
be described by the Hebrews verse about seeing things that are as they are
not.
I also used it to show that even the Word is not always accepted or
understood. You say that human understanding is enough to understand
the Word. It wasn't in this case.
Jill
|
| 907.37 | re .35 Romans 4 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 20 1996 14:54 | 12 |
| re .35
Hi Tony,
My soul is really sinful still, really! There is no good in me
apart from Jesus. But His blood already paid for my redemption and as
long as I abide with Him, He see me as pure. Thats really what the
Hebrews verse means to me. It says that I can be sinful and pure at
the same time. Thats the wonder of the cross, of God's love for me a
sinner.
Jill
|
| 907.38 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Tue Aug 20 1996 15:26 | 17 |
|
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
remove the chapter and verse designations and read the Romans letter as
a whole.
Jim
|
| 907.39 | Reading The Report | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 17:47 | 56 |
| re.17
Hi Ace,
Sorry this was so late. Just really busy.
*I think we differ fundamentally in that you view the experience of Holy of
*Holies as a final destination or a state of achieved perfection.
Maybe 'and' instead of 'or' would be more accurate! Perfection in the
sense of character and not of flesh. Also perfection in the sense of
being enabled to see God face to face.
*I believe
*that it is the process whereby perfection is attained through receiving
*the supply of grace.
Yes, we see this differently though. But, I'd sure like to emphasize our
harmony with respect to the actual Christian experience.
*One thing you keep saying that I don't understand...
*" There are no more veils in our hearts for when we see Him
*as He is (fully), we see all of ourselves. All is exposed. Every lust
*and passion of sinful flesh is made fully known to us. This is the report
*that is a terror to read and one for whom we required a Forerunner else we
*could never survive reading such a report."
*Help me understand why you believe this "terror" is to be our experience.
*Hebrews speaks of the terror of the Mosaic mountain, but we have come to
*Mt. Zion a beautiful high place of God.
And a place where everything that can be shaken will be shaken and where
"our God is a consuming fire."
That is an excellent question. The reason is that God uses the remnant
to vindicate Himself. I believe the following...
1) death is inherent to sin
2) life is inherent to righteousness.
When the remnant is atop Mount Zion, the report they will read is one
wherein they will see all the sinfulness in sin and feel to be that
sinner. Thus they will have the same load of guilt as the lost will
have after the resurrection of the unjust.
The remnant will respond to this 'report' by faith. They will overcome
and will enjoy a closeness with God never before experienced by man
since the fall.
The lost will respond to that same 'report' by despairing and the mental
ordeal will be so great that eternal death will be a welcome relief.
(Like crying for rocks to fall on you.)
I'll continue...
|
| 907.40 | What This Demonstrates | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 17:52 | 53 |
| re.17 (contd.)
What does this demonstrate? It demonstrates that sin is not a viable
existence. That the only reason sin has not already destroyed is that
its destructive capacity is dormant due to the veiling of God's glory
(which exposes a full revelation of the sinfulness of sin).
It also demonstrates that righteousness is so enduring (as the mighty
mountains as the psalmist says) that it can even endure the same trial
that the lost experience - and survive.
It also demonstrates God's justice. That He is NOT arbitrary. It reveals
the complete unarbitrariness of the redemption of the saved and the condemna-
tion of the lost. It reveals a spiritual reality that God Himself is
bound to - He went to the cross. He did not and could not bypass the
reality implicit in sin and righteousness.
This two-fold revelation of how good righteousness is and how bad sin
is will be so intense that those who have chosen God to sin will be
forever safeguarded from choosing sin again. Though the choice is never
denied them. They will never choose sin to righteousness for this reve-
lation has afforded them a hatred of sin and a love of righteousness that
is intense.
This is the settling of the great controversy. This is the time of
judgment when the saints destroy the little horn power (see Daniel 8),
when Satan is crushed under the church's feet.
This 'crushing' is not in the realm of the physical, but of issues which
is always what judgment is the realm of.
*This terror experience you mention is out of character with our salvation
*and standing before God as sons.
I don't follow Ace. Can you explain?
The word says that a people will suffer the reproach of Christ, the reproach
He suffered in the outer court (Heb. 13). Peter says to think fiery trial
not strange. You seem to directly contradict the word, but correct me if
I am wrong.
God WILL NOT permit the seeing of the report until His people are PREPARED
to see it; that is respond to the trial by a faith that is victorious. He
knows we will succeed though we will not.
And even this trial will pale compared to the joy of heaven.
I think it would be wonderful to have been so used by God to vindicate Him
before the universe. To testify to the experience of perfect service to
Him during fiercest trial while laden with sinful flesh. What a wonderful
testimony to be blessed to give for eternity!
Tony
|
| 907.41 | My Intended Meaning of 'Human Understanding' | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:00 | 19 |
| re: Note 907.36
Hi Jill,
*Actually I was using the John verses to show how being "born again" can
*be described by the Hebrews verse about seeing things that are as they are
*not.
Oh, OK. Thickheaded me! ;-)
*I also used it to show that even the Word is not always accepted or
*understood. You say that human understanding is enough to understand
*the Word. It wasn't in this case.
In spiritual matters, if I *ever* say human understanding, I mean as
influenced by the Spirit of God, as surrendered to Him for guidance.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
Tony
|
| 907.42 | Questions, Questions! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:00 | 61 |
| re: Note 907.37
Hi Jill,
*But His blood already paid for my redemption...
As you probably know, I desire to move from symbol to the reality that
symbol represents, from shadow to very image (Hebrews 10:1-4). This,
after all, is a vital aspect of the last day transition in covenant.
In consideration of this,
What does His blood refer to?
What does already paid mean to you? What did it satisfy? How did
it bring you from condemned to redeemed? What did it actually accomplish?
Please use meaning so much as possible. Elaborate all you want. Use
symbol as little as possible.
*...and as long as I abide with Him, He see me as pure.
Yes, I agree.
*Thats really what the Hebrews verse means to me. It says that I can
*be sinful and pure at the same time.
Just a nit, but its Romans 4.
Above, you said...
"SEE me as pure."
Below that, you said...
"BE pure."
How did you equate "see" with "be"?
How does this harmonize with God calling those things which *BE* NOT
as they ARE?
(notice the BE linked with NOT???)
If you are sinful AND pure, just what is the nature of this purity?
(I assume it is a 'purity' that is of something other than our sinfulness
as you state that the impurity of sinfulness remains.)
Perhaps this is another case of losing meaning while 'Christian jargon'
is retained?
What do you MEAN??? ;-)
*Thats the wonder of the cross, of God's love for me a sinner.
Yes, but I don't see how it is that God loves me even less even if I
really and actually am not yet pure.
I also don't see how one can both "be" and "not be" something.
Tony
|
| 907.43 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:01 | 14 |
| Hi Tony,
I think it would be wonderful to have been so used by God to vindicate
Him before the universe. To testify to the experience of perfect
service to Him during fiercest trial while laden with sinful flesh.
What a wonderful testimony to be blessed to give for eternity!
Why wait? You can do this today.
(Sorry for interrupting)
Jill
|
| 907.44 | I'm Not Ready and May I Not Be So Presumptuous | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:08 | 16 |
| I am speaking of the cross experience of the last days. Are
you on Mount Zion right now, Jill? Have you seen virtually
all of the lusts and passions resident in sinful flesh?
Are we talking about the same thing?
If so, yours is a presumption I'll have no part of. When and
if this takes place in my life, God can tell me afterward.
This is an example of self-perceived spiritual elevation of the
highest order.
There may be myriad lessons that await any of us before we are
even close to being prepared to read the report.
Tony
|
| 907.45 | re .42 calleth those things which be not as | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:23 | 54 |
| re .42
Hi Tony,
I really think that this is the key to understanding our differences.
*Thats really what the Hebrews verse means to me. It says that I can
*be sinful and pure at the same time.
I also don't see how one can both "be" and "not be" something.
This is the whole point of Romans 4:17. Notice it uses the word "be"
not "seen":
God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as
though they were. (Romans 4:17 KJV)
I don't know how or why the Lord does this for me, but I know its true.
Can someone help me out and explain this better?
*Thats the wonder of the cross, of God's love for me a sinner.
Yes, but I don't see how it is that God loves me even less even if I
really and actually am not yet pure.
Tony this IS NOT what I meant at all! God loves me even more because I
am willing to admit to what I am a sinner and to live this way. I don't
really fully understand why. You can see some of it in Ephesians 5:25-28.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave
himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with
water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant
church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and
blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as
their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. (Ephesians
5:25-28)
Jesus loves us like a husband should love his wife. His wife isn't
perfect. Its the job of the husband and of Jesus to make us so through
the washing of the word (which is the Word of God as revealed by the
Holy Spirit). It pleases Jesus more than anything for us to just allow
Him the pleasure of loving us and guiding us and making us holy. We
don't have to be holy to come to Him. He wants the pleasure of making
us that way.
Does this help clearify things or make them worse?
Jill
|
| 907.46 | "See" = "Calleth" | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:29 | 12 |
| Hi Jill,
Yes, except one thing.
I equate "see" with "calleth."
He calls me something = He sees me as something.
Why does He do that? Because the word that calls me righteous
is precisely the same word that is making me righteous.
Otherwise, we agree.
|
| 907.47 | re .44 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:29 | 17 |
| re .44
Tony,
The Christian walk is a process. I doubt that there is an end. I
never meant to imply that I was at the end. :-) I'm
just suggesting that you apply these endtime scripures (in addition to
the endtimes, where they most definitely apply) also to your everyday
walk. Its rewarding to live them out somewhat now. Why wait for the
end. I need to walk now to be ready for the end. Remember those 10
virgins.
Jill
(hmm, I'm not implying that I'm one of those 10 virgins either! :-) )
|
| 907.48 | re .46 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:32 | 9 |
| re .46
Tony,
Does this mean that you agree that I can be a sinner and I can be pure
at the same time, right now?
Jill
|
| 907.49 | No | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:37 | 9 |
| No, because He calls (sees) something which IS NOT as though
it is.
Using the earthly example, are you saying that Abraham really
was the father of many nations before he had his first child?
The earthly example is used as an analogy, no?
Tony
|
| 907.50 | re .49 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Aug 26 1996 20:46 | 11 |
| Hi Tony,
Using the earthly example, are you saying that Abraham really
was the father of many nations before he had his first child?
Yes. Why not? Do you have to see his children to believe? And anyway
whats time to God?
Jill
|
| 907.51 | Be Not | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Aug 26 1996 21:12 | 31 |
|
Hi Jill,
If you do not have a child, you are childless - by definition.
You do not have to see children, you just have to *have*
children. To have means just that - to have.
Rom. 4:18
He became [future tense] the father of many nations.
Romans says God called Abe something he wasn't, not something
he was.
If it said He called him something he was, I would agree with
you. To call and to be are two different things.
You seem to be trying to make the word say that Abraham WAS
something when the Bible says he was CALLED something.
I think the time thing is just trying to make meaning of some-
thing that lacks meaning.
What does your interpretation add to your gospel? How does it
magnify a right understanding of God's love?
I don't see how it adds to a right understanding of God's love
at all.
Tony
|
| 907.52 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 27 1996 17:17 | 8 |
| Hi Tony,
I hear you but I don't have any more words to add. Perhaps later they
will come to me. Let me consider for a while.
Thanks
Jill
|
| 907.53 | Summary | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 27 1996 18:09 | 48 |
| Hi Jill,
OK. I just want to say, I think Roman's 4's REASON for the
truth that God calls those things which be not as though it
is, seems to support my belief.
It is that God could perfect Abraham's initial faith which
implies that the word (then) fully performs that which it says.
For example, suppose there is no star in the sky and God
says, "Look! There's a star!"
Then there is a star because His word that said, "There's
a star!" is the same word that made the star.
Likewise, God says, "You're righteous!" Because the same
word does the same. It is just 'stalled' because God is
a Gentleman and does not force free will. It is suppressed
by unbelief, but for those that receive the word, it produces
exactly what it says. He cultivates our faith. It just takes
time with creatures for whom He gave free choice.
The word that says "You are righteous", I believe, is the
same thing as the message of the cross is the same thing as
the blood of the cross.
So, on the following counts...
1) Linguistically - caling something that is not as though it is
2) Earthly example - father of manyn nations.
3) Underlying basis - the word that calls is the same word that
produces
4) Meaninglessness with your view - Try as I might, if I have
a migraine and God says "You don't have a migraine" and if I
still feel the migraine (analogous to still sinning), I lose
all meaning with your position. It sounds 100% irrational
to me. All reason says to me He is doing just what He says -
calling me something that I am not.
5) I don't see that it adds anything. Who cares how righteous
I perceive myself to be if the entirety of my focus is supposed
to be ON WHO JESUS IS and I am entirely lost in Him??? In
fact, Paul said, "I am the chief sinner."
Tony
|
| 907.54 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 27 1996 18:58 | 23 |
| Hi Tony,
re .53
5) I don't see that it adds anything. Who cares how righteous
I perceive myself to be if the entirety of my focus is supposed
to be ON WHO JESUS IS and I am entirely lost in Him??? In
fact, Paul said, "I am the chief sinner."
Now this is interesting to address.
Focus on Jesus, exactly right.
Realizing how truly sinful we really are makes us more and more
dependent on Jesus. But when we realize this we need to also know
deeply in our hearts that Jesus already died for us, it is done,
finished. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to come into His presence and
allow Him to work on us to make us pure. Being able to be with Him
while still sinful is necessary for the process of growth.
Jill
|
| 907.55 | Just Curious | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 27 1996 19:20 | 6 |
| Yes!
Just curious...do you see this as somehow supporting your idea
that we really are pure while we are still sinners???
Tony
|
| 907.56 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 27 1996 19:34 | 5 |
| Yes!
Jill
|
| 907.57 | Huh? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 27 1996 19:56 | 3 |
| Can you explain?
Tony
|
| 907.58 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Aug 27 1996 20:26 | 1 |
| I've been trying all day!
|
| 907.59 | ????? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Aug 27 1996 20:58 | 20 |
| Hi Jill,
For starters, could you just extract the portion of this reply
that infers in any way whatsoever that the faithful are pure
when they first have faith???
To be totally honest, I don't see how a single phrase in this
entire 'explanation' even remotely suggests such a thing!
***Now this is interesting to address.
Focus on Jesus, exactly right.
Realizing how truly sinful we really are makes us more and more
dependent on Jesus. But when we realize this we need to also know
deeply in our hearts that Jesus already died for us, it is done,
finished. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to come into His presence and
allow Him to work on us to make us pure. Being able to be with Him
***while still sinful is necessary for the process of growth.
Tony
|
| 907.60 | re .59 | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Aug 28 1996 14:45 | 14 |
| re. 59
Hi Tony,
>>the faithful are pure when they first have faith???
I don't recall having said this. I tried to say that the saved,
those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, are pure when
they first accept Jesus. Since its by faith that we can accept Jesus,
then perhaps its similar. But without Jesus, like in the OT days, I
just don't know.
Jill
|
| 907.61 | Mt. Zion: a beautiful habitation | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Wed Aug 28 1996 15:00 | 26 |
|
Me> *This terror experience you mention is out of character with our salvation
Me> *and standing before God as sons.
You> I don't follow Ace. Can you explain?
Tony, you were explaining the terror of MT. Zion related to some
future experience of seeing our sins/sinfulness to the max. The terror
experience you refer to is the Mt. Sinai experience, that of someone
living under the expectations demanded by the law but without the
means to fulfill them. Hence, Hebrews contrasts the two Mounts.
As a son of God born of His life, under the covering of His blood, I have
the position and entitlements of a son. I do not cower in fear before my
earthly father. I do not cower in terror under my heavenly Father. We have
come to Mt. Zion a beautiful and high place of God. Believers enjoy God's
presence in the company of the heavenly hosts on Mt. Zion. This is a
refreshing place,a peaceful place, an empowering place, a mighty place,
and a place full of grace and the riches of Christ. This is Mt. Zion, the
mutual dwelling place of God and His many sons.
If you are experiencing terror it means you are on the wrong Mt..
Regards,
Ace
|
| 907.62 | Partial Verses Complete/Statement Verses Counter Statement | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Aug 28 1996 16:11 | 94 |
| Hi Ace,
Yes, we are seeing the mountains differently. I see the mountains,
I believe, in a way which is consistent with the context of
Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:1-4 mentions _shadow_ and _very image_. Mount Sinai
is simply the mountain wherein the revelation of God is partial.
Mount Zion is the revelation of God which is not partial; it is
complete in a certain sense.
Like it or not, partial context of Hebrews 12 is that which
precedes. What precedes is the most thorough exposition I know
of on the chastening of the Lord. This is not something given
to *mount Sinai* people. This is relevent to Christians post-
Calvary. "Now no chastening seems joyous for the present time,
but *grievous*."
I have been wrestling especially in the past few months with
a weakness which has been the cause of intense anguish (some-
times). I don't have the anguish because I disbelieve that
God has pardoned me ENTIRELY. I have the anguish precisely
because the sight of my weakness horrifies me. Sin has the
effect of inducing some awful bad ideas to the mind. I have
had occasion, in the midst of guilt, of finding it so very hard
to embrace, in my heart, the truth that God has pardoned me.
Sure, theoretically I believe it. But, is my faith perfect?
Does my heart see as my mind understands? Because I can theorize
that agape is unconditional love, does this imply my heart sees
in exact proportion to what my mind conceptualizes?
You have a leg to stand on if you insist, "Yes."
Mount Sinai included God revealing a partial picture of His agape.
It also included a group that frankly was not up to having this
'mirror' (see James 1) show them their sin.
Moses, as Hebrews 12 recounts, was exceedingly afraid, but he went
up. On the way down, his face was RADIANT. I believe the JOY he
knew ("neverthless AFTERWARD it produces the peacable fruits of
righteousness to those who have been trained by it") surpasses
anything you or I have yet seen. Here was a man so full of agape
that he could offer to relinquish salvation itself if God could
not raise that holy nation (Ex. 32:32).
Your posture almost seems to necessitate that Moses was spiritually
less mature than us. I beg to differ, suggest he saw the message
of the cross more deeply than we ever have, and that his Sinai exp.
included a deeper revelation of the cross than we have ever seen.
His experience was still less than Zion. His was a partial
picture.
But, then again, so is mine. I refer not to the fullness of the
revelation of the cross that occured ~2000 years ago, I refer to
the partial picture of that cross my heart has seen.
Hebrews tells us what the full picture does. It perfects the
conscience.
For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any
two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit
and of joints and marrow and is a *discerner* of the thoughts and
intents of the heart.
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things
are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Jeremiah 30 is apocalyptic. The exp. includes 31:2, a people
who survive the sword.
I am not suggesting that God is not 100% unconditional love and
that He has not forgiven us fully for each and every sin.
I am suggesting that seeing sin and/or the lusts and passions of
our flesh poses to our mind A CONTRARY STATEMENT. Which is that
God has deserted you, He could never accept you as you are, you
are WAY too evil, etc. etc.
You can bet when Zech 12:10 takes place and we mourn for having
pierced our Saviour and we see the fullness of that sin, you can
bet that that "contrary statement" will be IMMENSE in its power.
It will be a GRIEVOUS experience, this final chastening. And one
only exposed by the full glory of Zion.
The group that has this exp. will, in the end, completely
disbelieve this awful and deceptive contrary statement induced
by their flesh. And they will then enjoy a peace that far sur-
passes our present understanding.
They will then commend their entire spirit to the Father as did
Jesus Christ one time as He hung for us.
Tony
|
| 907.63 | Digression and Reiteration | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Aug 28 1996 16:20 | 31 |
| Hi Jill,
A digression, but think this through...
One must have faith in order to be saved.
Faith comes by hearing the Word.
Christ is the word.
Virtually everyone who has had any faith whatsoever has had
faith in Jesus for it was faith in His word. It matters not
if the light is extremely partial, it was light - and HE is
the LIGHT of the world - and always was.
Any OT person who has faith confesses Jesus Christ as Lord
and Savior for their faith is their confession and their faith
was in the revelation of Him for it was His word.
The above is a mute point if phonics is everything, i.e. "I
have to say J-e-s-u-s."
Regardless of this digression, I don't think you really answered
my question to you?
For the sake of that, lets apply it only to NT times.
Where did anything you say suggest complete purity at the time
one first accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour???
Tony
|
| 907.64 | The choice is ours (as always)... | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Wed Aug 28 1996 16:58 | 16 |
|
re.62
Hi Tony,
I understand now why you are terrified.
All I can say brother, is that Mount Zion is a wonderfully,
glorious, peaceable, energizing experience as described by
Hebrews 12. This experience is mine (and yours) to enjoy when I
touch the Lord in my regenerated spirit. When I'm not touching
the Lord in my spirit my experience may turn to the terror of Mount
Sinai.
Take care,
Ace
|
| 907.65 | But, There Is A Chastening | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Aug 28 1996 19:35 | 21 |
| Ace,
I'm not really terrified. I just believe what the Word
says which is simply that glory exposes sin and it is
painful to see sin.
The chastening of the Lord - a grievous experience.
For you to (seemingly) negate the grievous part is to
me a rejection of scripture. Hebrews 12 discusses the
chastening of the Lord and then brings in the mountains.
I am not about to dismiss the first half of Hebrews 12
nor other slews of scripture that clearly point to an
endtime (and thus new testament) experience of a remnant
that is described (in part) as terrifying.
You are not going to sound convincing without being more
inclusive with the word of God.
Tony
|
| 907.66 | | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Wed Aug 28 1996 21:58 | 30 |
|
Hi Tony,
>I just believe what the Word says which is simply that glory exposes sin
> and it is painful to see sin.
Where does the Word say this?
> You are not going to sound convincing without being more
> inclusive with the word of God.
Why, I sound pretty convincing to me! 8*)
Really Tony, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just discussing
the matter with you. I just try to be faithful to what the Lord has
shown me and pray that He sorts the wheat from the chaff in my speaking.
I'm not responsible for the type of earth the seed lands on, that is,
the receptivity of the hearer. I pray for good earth, but He's
responsible for the earth. I must be faithful to broadcast the seed if
you understand my meaning.
As for the Word. Well I agree that often christians neglect it and
miss that greater part of its revelation. I'm certain I'm guilty of that
at least every now and then. But I would also say that it is possible to
read things into the Word that aren't really there. Some christians are
guilty of this as well. We all need to be emptied, open, and pursuing the
Lord for a fresh revelation of Himself.
Regards,
Ace
|
| 907.67 | Couple Texts | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 12:50 | 39 |
| Hi Ace,
My favorite two examples are Isaiah 6 and Romans 7. I could
show that God's glory is revelation - it is the word revealed.
In Isaiah 6, Isaiah catches a much deeper glimpse of God's glory.
His response is to cry out, "Woe is me for I am undone for I am
a man of unclean lips!" God's glory gave him a keener sight of
his sin - and it was painful. Indeed, Isaiah is then told to
bear a message and it most often seems apocalyptic. Might not
the message have relevence to his experience in ch. 6?
Romans 7 seems to be a real good example of this _in theory_
where it says that sin revives when the commandment comes.
I know in my own life that I am much more sensitized to sin
after I have seen my Lord more fully.
So, I think the word says this in many places and if you want, I
will cite more texts.
Your replies read to me as though you do not attempt to include
texts I bring forth. Hebrews 12 brings up Mount Zion. Just before
that, it brings up the chastening of the Lord and calls it
grievous. Isaiah refers to seeing the King in His beauty and then
says it will be a terror to read the report. Jeremiah 30 refers
to Jacob suffering travail as of a woman in birth pangs. It is
seen that it is apocalyptic.
I have seen you deny that there is terror (or any pain) involved.
I have also *not seen* you respond to a single one of these texts.
My point is simply that I cannot find a whole lot of merit in
your manner of substantiation as it appears (to me) to be very
incomplete.
IF you indeed have not responded to the texts of support I have
brought up, am I being unfair???
Tony
|
| 907.68 | Birth Pangs: All Countries Included | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:22 | 50 |
| Hi,
I just extracted this from a paper I wrote. It is a section
on the scripturally given allusion to birth pangs. I think
its relevent here as it shows that the faithful will endure
an extreme amount of pain in the last days.
Its long and so I broke it into 10 replies.
Birth Pangs:
This paper now closely examines two subjects so as to solidify
the impression that what I have shared really is truth and is a
part of the gospel. They will serve as examples of detailed
support rather than brief support. The first subject is the
scriptural use of the imagery of birth pangs and the second
subject is Adventist distinctives. The second subject will
detail the seventh day Sabbath and then will gloss over other
distinctives.
First of all, what is it like for a woman to give birth?
Briefly, the woman experiences birth pangs which start so
faintly that they are imperceptible at first and are of very
short time durations. As time progresses, the birth pangs get
closer together in time, get more and more painful, and last
longer and longer. Each birth pang is like a cycle. Each
begins with some sensation and the amount of pain progresses and
then recedes. After the pang, there is a season of peace, but
another is coming. The final birth pang is the longest and the
pain is the most intense. This final one gives birth to a
newborn creature. Love, peace, and joy are the typical response
to the end result of these birth pangs for a newborn is in the
midst.
A rigorous scriptural study of birth pangs indicates that at
some point in time, the whole world will suffer something the
Bible associates with them. This suffering is tied to the
judgment. Keeping in mind that "all these things happened as
examples," Jeremiah describes God's remnant as suffering birth
pangs. Neighboring countries suffer them as well.
Jeremiah 30:4-7
Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel
and Judah. 5 "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of
trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every
man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all
faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none
is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall
be saved out of it.
|
| 907.69 | Other Countries Plus An Isaiah Text | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:23 | 70 |
| Jeremiah 22:23
O inhabitant of Lebanon, Making your nest in the cedars, How
gracious will you be when pangs come upon you, Like the pain of
a woman in labor?
Jeremiah 48:41
Kerioth is taken, And the strongholds are surprised; The mighty
men's hearts in Moab on that day shall be Like the heart of a
woman in birth pangs.
Jeremiah 49:22
Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His
wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that
day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.
Jeremiah 50:43
"The king of Babylon has heard the report about them, And his
hands grow feeble; Anguish has taken hold of him, Pangs as of a
woman in childbirth.
Did you notice any difference in the descriptions between Jacob
and all the other examples? There is one staggering difference.
Jeremiah 30:7 says of Jacob, "But he shall be saved out of it."
I suggest that all the other countries are not saved out of it.
I suggest also that what each country is burdened with is so
similar that the inspired record sees fit to describe each with
the highly peculiar imagery of "travail as of a woman with birth
pangs."
The following verse links this experience with the chastening of
the Lord.
Isaiah 26:16-27:9
LORD, in trouble they have visited You, They poured out a prayer
when Your chastening was upon them. 17 As a woman with child Is
in pain and cries out in her pangs, When she draws near the time
of her delivery, So have we been in Your sight, O LORD. 18 We
have been with child, we have been in pain; We have, as it were,
brought forth wind; We have not accomplished any deliverance in
the earth, Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19
Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall
arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is
like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind
you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the
indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His
place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover
her slain.
In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that
twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the
sea.
In that day sing to her, "A vineyard of red wine! 3 I, the
LORD, keep it, I water it every moment; Lest any hurt it, I keep
it night and day. 4 Fury is not in Me. Who would set briers and
thorns Against Me in battle? I would go through them, I would
burn them together. 5 Or let him take hold of My strength, That
he may make peace with Me; And he shall make peace with Me." 6
Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob; Israel
shall blossom and bud, And fill the face of the world with
fruit.
Has He struck Israel as He struck those who struck him? Or has
He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain
by Him? 8 In measure, by sending it away, You contended with
it. He removes it by His rough wind In the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered; And
this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: When he makes all
the stones of the altar Like chalkstones that are beaten to
dust, Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.
|
| 907.70 | Points From Isaha Text/Who Is Jacob (Ps. 24)? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:23 | 35 |
| Much can be drawn from this text among which are:
The chastening of the Lord is the cause of the birth pangs
of Jacob.
Eventually the birth pangs bring forth delivery.
This is the time when all inhabitants of the earth are
punished for their iniquity.
Jacob rises.
Leviathon (Satan) is slain at this time by the sword.
The vineyard of the Lord is restored. The whole earth is
filled with her fruit.
This has been God's work of taking away Jacob's sin.
Wooden images and incense altars (sin) do not stand.
Because the birth pangs are experienced by Jacob (among others)
and are brought about by the chastening of the Lord, Psalm 24
and Hebrews 12 are linked. Psalm 24 by explicitly mentioning
Jacob, ascending up a hill, and seeking the face of the Lord and
Hebrews 12 by mentioning the chastening of the Lord and
inhabiting Mount Zion.
Psalm 24:3-6
Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD? Or who may stand in
His holy place? 4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who
has not lifted up his soul to an idol, Nor sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive blessing from the LORD, And righteousness from
the God of his salvation. 6 This is Jacob, the generation of
those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah
|
| 907.71 | Chastening (Heb. 12)/Numerous Links/Mount Zion | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:24 | 63 |
| Hebrews 12:3-11
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against
Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4
You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to
sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be
discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the LORD
loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for
what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you
are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then
you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had
human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall
we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of
spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us
as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be
partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be
joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it
yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have
been trained by it.
Psalm 24 tells us that one application of Jacob is a generation.
Jeremiah 30 refers to Jacob as experiencing the birth pangs. A
more detailed look at Jeremiah tells us that its primary
application is endtimes (Jeremiah 30:24), Israel survived the
sword and was given rest (Jeremiah 31:2), the call out of
Babylon is made (31:8), and the accomplishment of the
everlasting covenant is taking place (31:30-34). The
connections are almost too numerous to mention.
The entire book of Hebrews is relevant here. This book contains
the exhortation to enter God's rest, much reference to the sword
(the word of God), the giving of the everlasting covenant, and
the eventual inhabitation of Mount Zion. Some references to
Mount Zion are:
Hebrews 12:18-29
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and
that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and
tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words,
so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be
spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was
commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it
shall be stoned or shot with an arrow." 21 And so terrifying was
the sight that Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and
trembling.") 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city
of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable
company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the
firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all,
to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the
Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling
that speaks better things than that of Abel.
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not
escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we
not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26
whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised,
saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also
heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of
those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made,
that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore,
since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us
have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence
and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
|
| 907.72 | More Links/Mount Zion and Birth Pangs | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:24 | 36 |
| Jeremiah described Jacob, who was saved out of the birth pangs,
as surviving the sword. Psalm 24 described Jacob as righteous
and as seeking God's face (which is a euphemism for seeing all
of God). Hebrews 12 refers to the inhabitation of Mount Zion
where all that can be shaken will be shaken and describes our
God as a consuming fire. These texts are all saying the same
thing. The glory of God is unveiled. This is the apocalyptic
occurrence of God removing the veil from earth.
The following Psalm text includes more connection by linking
elevating Mount Zion directly with birth pangs. (And remember,
Isaiah linked birth pangs with chastening.)
Psalm 48:1-6
A Song. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and
greatly to be praised In the city of our God, In His holy
mountain. 2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great
King. 3 God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge. 4
For behold, the kings assembled, They passed by together. 5
They saw it, and so they marveled; They were troubled, they
hastened away. 6 Fear took hold of them there, And pain, as of
a woman in birth pangs,
The birth pangs texts and other texts that are related point to
one basic conclusion. At some point in time, God will unveil
His presence on earth. This will cause all people's to endure
tremendous hardship, so painful that it is described as giving
birth. Jacob is saved out of it, but all other peoples are
destroyed. Just this is enough to suggest the spiritual reality
implicit in the gospel here presented. The saved are perfected
and then allowed to go behind the veil. They bear all that
guilt, are tempted to give up in despair, but overcome by faith.
The lost are eventually exposed to the same sword. They bear
that load of guilt, cave in to a hopeless despair, and are
destroyed.
|
| 907.73 | Saved and Lost (Both Groups) Experience Same Pain | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:24 | 48 |
| This reply refers to a figure that I unfortunately cannot
reproduce. My apologies!
The figure on Page 55 is a rough illustration of what takes
place. The top sketch refers to the last generation of God's
faithful and the bottom to the lost. In the top sketch, a curve
roughly represents the amount of God seen. It has the general
shape it does because in the last days knowledge shall increase.
That is, as we get nearer and nearer the end, God's love is
seen at greater and greater rates. The cycles represent birth
pangs as a result of seeing that love. The top of each cycle
represents the amount of pain endured and is proportional to the
amount of God's love seen. This is why the tops intersect the
line represented by God's love. The time comes when the saved
are sealed. They are perfected. They are next exposed to God
unveiled and this exposes all the exceeding sinfulness of sin.
As wisdom exceeds folly (Ecclesiastes 2:13), the final birth
pang is not represented as proportional to the love of God for
it falls far short of it. The saints survive this final birth
pang. Finally, a people can see God face to face. Perfect
reconciliation!
Notice the bottom sketch. The same curve representing God's
love is drawn, but here there is one stark exception. This
group turned away from that love. Thus they never experienced
birth pangs. The time comes, however, when God must show them
how good He is. Thus, they experience the exact same last birth
pang. They cannot survive this.
Perhaps this all sounds unlikely, but scripture forcefully bears
this out.
James 1:23-25
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like
a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes
himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he
was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and
continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the
work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Here is pictured both groups. God's love, the law, is revealed
to both. The Christian, as a general rule, is willing to
continue to look into the mirror and see who he is. This is a
painful process, but he looks and turns away from his sin. The
nonchristian sometimes sees the same mirror, but instead of
turning away from his sin, he turns away from the mirror. Thus
the sketch roughly illustrates this general process for both
groups.
|
| 907.74 | Psalm 73 Shows Remarkable Support | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:25 | 58 |
| Psalm 73:1-12
A Psalm of Asaph. Truly God is good to Israel, To such as are
pure in heart. 2 But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled; My
steps had nearly slipped. 3 For I was envious of the boastful,
When I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 For there are no
pangs in their death, But their strength is firm. 5 They are
not in trouble as other men, Nor are they plagued like other
men. 6 Therefore pride serves as their necklace; Violence
covers them like a garment. 7 Their eyes bulge with abundance;
They have more than heart could wish. 8 They scoff and speak
wickedly concerning oppression; They speak loftily. 9 They set
their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue walks through
the earth. 10 Therefore his people return here, And waters of a
full cup are drained by them. 11 And they say, "How does God
know? And is there knowledge in the Most High?" Behold, these
are the ungodly, Who are always at ease; They increase in riches.
This psalm opens with a man who cannot understand why the wicked
seem not to suffer while he does. It all seems so unfair to
him. Notice how he next characterizes what his suffering has
been due to.
Psalm 73:13-14
Surely I have cleansed my heart in vain, And washed my hands in
innocence. 14 For all day long I have been plagued, And
chastened every morning.
What burdened this man was the chastening process itself. He
refers to the process of being made clean. This man is
reflecting what is shown on the sketch. He is chastened while
the wicked are not. This is the source of the birth pangs for
the saints. It is the chastening of the Lord "for whom the Lord
loves He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives" (Heb.
12:6). It is a painful and continuous ordeal.
This man doesn't see the fairness in what takes place with the
wicked, but later he does see.
Psalm 73:15-19
If I had said, "I will speak thus," Behold, I would have been
untrue to the generation of Your children. 16 When I thought
how to understand this, It was too painful for me -- 17 Until I
went into the sanctuary of God; Then I understood their end. 18
Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to
destruction. 19 Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a
moment! They are utterly consumed with terrors.
What Asaph essentially saw was that the wicked ultimately are
made to experience seeing the full glory of the Lord and thus
that last birth pang. He then saw that, as with pregnancy,
survival of subsequent birth pangs requires, in part,
experiencing the preceding birth pangs. Just as no woman can
survive a one birth pang pregnancy, but requires a progressive
birthing experience, so the Lord knows that man cannot survive
seeing Him all at once, but must see Him gradually. Asaph saw
that every man will be exposed to that which will cause that
final birth pang. He could then see the wisdom of bearing all
previous ones rather than refusing them.
|
| 907.75 | Review of Summary Points of Isaiah 26 | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:25 | 48 |
| Let us review the points gleaned from Isaiah 26:
The chastening of the Lord is the cause of the birth pangs
of Jacob. (1)
Eventually the birth pangs bring forth delivery. (2)
This is the time when all inhabitants of the earth are
punished for their iniquity. (3)
Jacob rises. (4)
Leviathon (Satan) is slain at this time by the sword. (5)
The vineyard of the Lord is restored. The whole earth is
filled with her fruit. (6)
This has been God's work of taking away Jacob's sin. (7)
Wooden images and incense altars (sin) do not stand. (8)
Point 1 has been clearly established. Regarding the final
point (8), I did take the liberty of summarizing wooden images
and incense altars as being sin. The glory of the Lord is
exposed and this is what causes sin to be destroyed. God's love
consumes sin and thus that exposure of that love must remove sin
from the sinner or (if the sinner refuses to turn from his sin)
must consume the sinner with his sin.
'If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you
are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming
fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the
presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you.'
Thoughts From The Mount of Blessing, E. White, p. 62
As Isaiah said, all inhabitants are punished. The lost and
Jacob suffer for their iniquity. Both groups experience "The
commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Rom 7:9). But,
this death, this burden of guilt, is survived by Jacob. As was
mentioned with the cross of Jesus, Jacob also dies and is
resurrected. Thus points 3 and 4 are established.
This resurrection of Jacob is the survival of that last great
birth pang. Jacob has a communion with God unrivaled since sin
entered the world. He can see the Father face to face; he no
longer needs a Mediator. He is perfected in character and
overflowing with righteousness. He is a newborn creature.
Points 2,6, and 7 are fulfilled.
|
| 907.76 | How Leviathon Is Slain In The Judgment | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:25 | 29 |
| One point is left. The slaying of Leviathon. This slaying is
not physical, but is conceptual. It is within the realm of
issues. Recall in the great controversy discussion what Satan's
main allegation is - that sin is a viable alternative lifestyle.
Well, sin had just destroyed the lost and the viability of
righteousness has just been testified by Jacob surviving that
same load of guilt the lost succumbed to. The sword brought all
of this about and as the lost were destroyed by the sword and
Jacob endured it, this sword figuratively destroys Satan for his
arguments are completely destroyed.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
The birth pangs texts bring a huge source of inter-related
scripture to the table. They point to so much including how
spiritual reality works and the peculiar apocalyptic occurrence
of the experience of that very last birth pang. They point to
saved and lost experiencing the burden of that last birth pang,
but with each responding differently according to their
respective characters; "But, Jacob shall be saved out of it."
They ultimately point to the spiritual meaning of the death of
the lost and the death and resurrection of the saved. They
explain what it means for Satan to be trodden under the feet of
the saints. Finally, they point to how. A sword is coming and
this sword is the revelation of the character of God. A time
comes when the word of God, that sword, is absolutely sharp in
its clarity.
|
| 907.77 | Considering John 16 In An Endtime (1 Cor. 10:11) Setting | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:26 | 49 |
| I'll let this birth pangs study end on one last text. Please
consider it in an andtime setting! In reading this passage,
consider that Jesus leaving us refers to that sense of
abandonment caused by the guilt of seeing sinfulness and
consider the ensuing joy to be the result of overcoming by faith
and having the peace and assurance of God restored to our
hearts. This last birth pang - a time when God can finally
speak plainly to us!
John 16:16-31
A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little
while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father." 17 Then
some of His disciples said among themselves, "What is this that
He says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and
again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go
to the Father'?" 18 They said therefore, "What is this that He
says, 'A little while'? We do not know what He is saying." 19
Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to
them, "Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, 'A
little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while,
and you will see Me'? 20 "Most assuredly, I say to you that you
will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will
be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21 "A
woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has
come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no
longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has
been born into the world. 22 "Therefore you now have sorrow; but
I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy
no one will take from you. 23 "And in that day you will ask Me
nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the
Father in My name He will give you. 24 "Until now you have asked
nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may
be full. 25 "
These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but
the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in
figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the
Father. 26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not
say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 "for the
Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have
believed that I came forth from God. 28 "I came forth from the
Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world
and go to the Father." 29 His disciples said to Him, "See, now
You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 "Now
we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that
anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came
forth from God." 31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?
Tony
|
| 907.78 | Behind The Veil As Linked to Birth Pangs | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 01 1996 13:51 | 35 |
| re: .43
Hi Jill,
If you read the birth pang replies, you might see how it is I
replied as I did to your reply in .43.
The way I see it is that God used a physical example to illustrate
a spiritual reality. The physical example is the process of a woman
giving birth, i.e. travail as of a woman in birth pangs. The spiritual
reality is the process of sanctification which includes the chastening
of the Lord.
In .43, you said that we can go behind the veil RIGHT NOW.
Applying the physical analogy, lets assume a woman has 150 contractions
in all before a baby is born.
Can a woman go from contraction #14, skip numbers 15 through 149 and
endure contraction #150???
In the spiritual, I believe this is what you are implying. You are saying
that you can 'jump ahead' beyond several chastening experiences not yet
seen and have that very final birth pang.
Is this what you are saying? If so, how do you support such a notion that
it is viable to skip several birth pangs?
Or are you saying that birth pangs are not a part of the unveiling exp.?
If so, how do you contend that the birth pang texts, rightly understood,
have no apocalyptic significance???
Do you see what I am saying?
Tony
|
| 907.79 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Sep 03 1996 15:08 | 20 |
| re .78
Hi Tony,
I am not saying that you can skip any contractions.
I am trying to point out the difference one feels when in the hospital
to have a baby and in pain, vs in the hospital because something is
seriously damaged in your body and in pain. In the first there is a
hope and a joy that prevales the whole experience. Even though you are
in pain, you are not sick, you are really ok. Its just something you
need to walk though to get to the final result. Its a very serious
thing to walk though, but there is really no fear, no condemnation.
Only love.
Does that help at all?
Jill
|
| 907.80 | Agree, But Confused With Earlier Reply | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 15:53 | 12 |
| Hi Jill,
I agree 100%. To put another way, while there is pain, faith
is intact. The response to that pain is other than despair.
The response is a faithful one and thus the psyche is not
damaged.
I still don't understand why you said we could go there *now*
as you seemed to say in the reply # I posted (with my last
reply).
Tony
|
| 907.81 | Elaboration | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 16:01 | 27 |
| Hi Jill,
In .43 you said, "Why wait? You can do this today" in direct
response to my description of an experience that equates to
the final birth pang, i.e.
From .43
vindicate Him before the universe - this takes place
during the judgment of the living and equates to the
church's slaying of Leviathon (Satan). Why did you
say "Why wait" to this?
testify to the experience of perfect service - this
takes place when a group is perfect in character.
Perfect service includes perfectly manifesting His
character.
fiercest trial - this is that trial that is described
as that *final* birth pang. I did not say fierce trial,
I said "fiercest" trial. Why then did you say, "Why wait?
You can do this TODAY." (emphasis supplied)
Jill, I don't understand!
Tony
|
| 907.82 | | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Tue Sep 03 1996 16:31 | 46 |
|
Hi Tony,
>IF you indeed have not responded to the texts of support I have
> brought up, am I being unfair???
I don't think you're being unfair. However, I think you may be
missing some pieces (not literally of course 8*)
The reason I find it difficult (or have no desire) to reply to
your every point is that I don't have the time to unravel most of them.
Your replies contain correlations that aren't obvious (Satan is Leviathon,
glory is revelation - the word revealed, etc.), elaborations that are too
extensive to follow (I prefer short to the point conversation), bypass
the apparent and obvious in favor of the peculiar (my opinion of course),
and invoke obscure OT passages.
AS a result I miss your point, am confused what your point is, have my
doubts about your point, or their biblical accuracy. Whenever I'm feeling this
way I tend to move on to another point, topic, or subject. Don't
misunderstand, I don't think any less of you as a brother for it. It's just
that my one cylinder brain misfires when simultaneously engaged in multiple
streams of consciousness! I can't speak for anyone else, but if you want to
make me clear, you'll have to lay out a program that helps me understand your
basic assumptions, eases my mind that you believe in the fundamentals of the
christian faith (I assume so but not 100% sure), and then patiently unfolds
what you believe is different, special, higher, better, deeper, etc.. I'm not
asking you to do this, I'm merely stating what I think it would take on your
part. I think you are at a different starting point than most christians.
I appreciate your quantitative use of the Word, but qualitatively it is mostly
unconvincing. Now don't get bothered about this. I'm sure it makes
perfect sense to you, it just doesn't across simply, cleanly, and crisply most
of the time for the previous stated reasons.
Tony, I've read your replies for many, many years and I'm really no closer to
understanding them. I cherish you as a brother but most of the time I've no
idea what you are talking about! 8*) 8*)
Regards,
Ace
|
| 907.83 | Differences | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 17:11 | 49 |
| Yes, Ace, we have different starting points.
I believe your starting point is that God must condemn because
one sins.
Mine is that sin itself condemns inherently (an analogy would
be a cancerous tumor).
Your believe is that the cross redeems because it meets the
payment that God had to condemn with.
My belief is that the cross redeems because its revelation
removes that which condemns (sin) from the heart as its merits
(the blood = the word) are applied to the heart by the High
Priest.
Your belief is that when Jesus is accepted, a RESULT is that
the heart begins to be cleansed. This is not salvation; that
was already accomplished. This is just a nice side-thing.
My belief is that the cleansing of the heart IS salvation and
there is no other.
Neither position denies that the merits of the cross is all
that saves. Neither position denies that all we can do is
respond by faith and allow His grace to work in us, i.e. faith
is our only part. Neither position denies that we can have
perfect assurance when we first respond by faith or that God
looks at us as though we are as righteous as Christ Himself.
Each position differs drastically as to the WHY for all of the
above.
Your position believes that the atonement is finished at the
cross. My position is that the atonement is finished by a
Priest and after He has sprinkled the sanctuary (hearts of the
faithful) with His blood (revelation of the cross) so fully
that they are perfectly cleansed from sin.
Actually, as to the idea of pain as one sees sin, I don't see how
that is so hard to see.
But, you're still my brother in Christ!
Tony
Tony
|
| 907.84 | | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 17:15 | 8 |
| re: .79
Hi Jill,
I reread this. Actually, I think there is a *sense* of
condemnation. A feeling of it.
Tony
|
| 907.85 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Sep 03 1996 17:54 | 21 |
| Hi Tony,
I agree that there is a *final* time. What I'm trying to say is that
this description of a *final* time can be applied today (as a shadow).
If we take the words to heart today, we can learn a bit about what the
final time will be. We can learn it by living through it now, which is
a stronger learning than just reading about it. Also to do it today, is
as much pain as we can currently take. So I ask, why not start today?
I think we are getting confused about the word condemnation. Of course
sin is bad, but we are already forgiven so there is no condemnation in
it. There is however judgement and we do need to repent. But there is
no fear that we will not be forgiven because there is no fear in love
because fear is based in condemnation.
Ok?
Jill
|
| 907.86 | This Was Anticipated | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 20:48 | 33 |
| re: -1
Hi Jill,
I actually anticipated part of your reply as being what you
just explained in -1.
To which I have *another* problem with. You address me personally
and say, "Why wait?" which too easily implies that I have every
intention of waiting and of not wanting to do this now.
Did I ever intimate in any way that I support *waiting* and not
undergoing birth pangs *now*? Can you cite where I have EVER
suggested such a thing?
As far as I am concerned, to address me personally and to say to
me individualy, "Why wait?" and "We can do this now" too easily
implies something unless there is ample clarification (which there
wasn't).
Any hint of suggestion like the above belongs offline.
I have a problem with this - unless of course you can cite where
I ever supported the idea of waiting and of not doing this right
now.
As it wasn't a question addressed to a generic audience and given
you meant it as you explained, it was, imo, inappropriate.
Tell me offline if you think I am in favor of waiting. That is
a personal topic.
Tony
|
| 907.87 | Slow down for a minute | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Sep 03 1996 21:34 | 24 |
| Hi, Tony.
Long time, no see/hear! :-)
I think Jill is trying to convey nothing against you, rather her own
peace that goes beyond understanding that when Jesus appears, she'll be
like Him to see Him as He is. She doesn't need to wait on that
assurance.
I may be wrong, but the confusion may come from your views of
perfection in an end-time people.
What has happened to saints who've passed on before, e.g., the
Apostles, Abraham, Moses, etc.? Do you hold they were perfected in the
flesh? If not, is there something possibly better for us than them?
What exactly do you see as the benefit of being part of the perfected
end-time group? How will they be more like Jesus than others of us who
by faith see Jesus as our Savior and Lord but who might pass from this
earthly life before the end-time?
Do you see what I'm asking?
/Wayne
|
| 907.88 | That Something Possibly Better | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 03 1996 23:41 | 91 |
| Note 907.87
Hi Wayne,
*Long time, no see/hear! :-)
Yeah, its been awhile!
*I think Jill is trying to convey nothing against you, rather her own
*peace that goes beyond understanding that when Jesus appears, she'll be
*like Him to see Him as He is. She doesn't need to wait on that
*assurance.
Uh huh. I didn't see this, but I sure could be wrong! I didn't even
know we were discussing assurance, however, I believe assurance is
something we should all believe in regardless of our spiritual maturity.
*I may be wrong, but the confusion may come from your views of
*perfection in an end-time people.
I have no idea. Jill said we can have *it* now and then says she is
referring to shadow and not very image. Well, *it* is not shadow and
we CANNOT have it now. It was a very cryptic reply, imo. Essentially
silently substituting a shadow experience for a very image one, not
letting onto that substitution and than stating, "We can have it now."
Factoring in that, in this case, shadow and very image differ humon-
gously so far as experience is concerned...
Add to this the realization that most people believe all Christians
already are behind the veil and (I think) a whole lot more clarifica-
tion would have been most beneficial.
*What has happened to saints who've passed on before, e.g., the
*Apostles, Abraham, Moses, etc.? Do you hold they were perfected in the
*flesh?
No, I don't believe they went behind the veil in the flesh.
*If not, is there something possibly better for us than them?
Yes, there is something better for the remnant than for them. Heb
11:39-40. They cannot be made perfect apart from us.
I can testify that the sense of intimacy I have enjoyed with the Lord
is directly proportional to the level of sin I have seen as I found
assurance within that experience. Sort of like each pang is a bitter-
sweet experience and the level of 'sweet' is proportional to the level
of just preceding 'bitter.'
The 'behind the veilers' will feel to be so overwhelmingly evil. For
them to taste that exceeding bitterness AND THEN to arrive at perfect
peace and assurance in Christ will provide a sweetness that no prior
generation will ever have known.
I think its sort of like where in 1 John, it says we know as we are
known. Well, God already knows us inside out. I think it refers to
how much we really know He knows us by how much we have been made aware
of ourselves. And when we know pardon *within that*, we know Him to
a level of intimacy not known previously.
*What exactly do you see as the benefit of being part of the perfected
*end-time group? How will they be more like Jesus than others of us who
*by faith see Jesus as our Savior and Lord but who might pass from this
*earthly life before the end-time?
Those who pass through this life before the end-time will not have had
nearly the same level of 'bittersweet.' They won't know the incredible
sense of perfect assurance with God that was just attained after the
ordeal of literally feeling to be a Crucifier of God. (Zech 12 somewhere.)
I can testify in my own life that the closest I have ever felt to my
Lord was when I had what seemed to be a perfect sense of His love for
me in the midst of a heightened awareness of my own sinfulness. Well,
the behind the veil group will have a sense of unworthiness that far
surpasses what previous persons will have. Their sense of God's love
for them as they overcome this ordeal by faith will be proportional to
the preceding sense of bitterness (I believe).
Perhaps not a perfect explanation, but kind of along the lines of the
adage: "Those who love much are those who have a sense of being forgiven
much." No group will have a greater sense of how forgiven they are
for no other group will have had a keener sense of the sinfulness of
sin. They will love much because of the sense of love they see in the
forgiveness of their Lord. This will all be experiential; not just
theoretical.
*Do you see what I'm asking?
Did I???
Tony
|
| 907.89 | Sorry if I missed your point previously | ROCK::PARKER | | Wed Sep 04 1996 01:58 | 17 |
| Ah, okay.
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not
receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for
us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." (He.11:39&
40, NAS)
Are you taking this to mean that all saints who die, including some of us
perhaps, are held in Limbo until Christ appears after an end-time people
are perfected in the flesh, i.e., that none is made perfect in heaven until
an end-time group is made perfect on earth?
Do you take the "us" in He.11:40 to mean the end-time group? Assuming the
human writer of Hebrews died and is now dead, why would he have included
himself with an end-time group to be perfected in the flesh?
/Wayne
|
| 907.90 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Wed Sep 04 1996 14:48 | 21 |
| Tony, my brother, my friend,
I'm deeply sorry if I insulted you. That wasn't my intention at all.
I never meant to imply in any way that you are just waiting.
Steve Fry on one of his tapes says it best. He prays (my paraphrase),
Oh God we ask for revival, thank you for the dribbles and drabs that
you've sent but Lord we ask for more. Thank you for your rain, but we
ask for torrential downpours. We ask for a flood. Fill this land with
revival in a way we've not seen before...
Thats my prayer for you Tony. Dear Lord pour your Spirit out on Tony in a
way that he has never seen before. Thank you for the rain that you've
given to Tony already, but Lord please give him more, send him a flood.
Thank you Lord.
Forgive me Tony?
Jill
|
| 907.91 | Don't Know Jill... | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 08 1996 15:23 | 8 |
| re: -1
Hi Jill,
I can't say that I know for sure that you did anything wrong
so I'm not sure you should ask forgiveness! (Replied offline.)
Tony
|
| 907.92 | Justified By The Blood - A Cup's Worth (1 of 3) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 08 1996 15:23 | 66 |
| re: Note 907.89
Hi Wayne,
*"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not
*receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for
*us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." (He.11:39&
*40, NAS)
Great verse. I think 1 Corin 15:20-29 is a parallel text. It refers to
a group who are *baptized* for the dead. They _do something_ for the
dead. This is the group that drinks the cup Christ has drunk and is
baptized with His baptism.
*Are you taking this to mean that all saints who die, including some of us
*perhaps, are held in Limbo until Christ appears after an end-time people
*are perfected in the flesh, i.e., that none is made perfect in heaven until
*an end-time group is made perfect on earth?
Leave it to you to pull out that 'mental-spiritual scalpel' and cut right
to a jugular!!!
;-)
Wayne, I think you know that I believe the only condemnation is inherent
to sin. Sin itself condemns. (Well, I believe the flesh is a burden too.)
I believe that with the exception of anyone who has been perfectly sanctified
by Christ, all are in the grave. Elijah is in heaven. So is Moses. So is
Enoch. So are the first-fruits (those resurrected at the time of the cross)
and perhaps others.
David is still in the grave (Acts 13:36).
I believe God has to demonstrate something on earth and that the cross is
the efficacy of that which will be demonstrated. The power of the cross to
save to the uttermost must be demonstrated.
Follow this through.
Sinful flesh is a source of evil lusts and passions. (See for example
Galatians 5:16-24 and Romans 8:1-9. Note especially Gal. 5:24 after seeing
some of the evil desires of the flesh in the previous verses).
I want to suggest one thing. If one sees the evil lusts and passions of His
flesh, EVEN THOUGH WITHOUT SIN, one will _feel to be that sinner_ and bear
the corresponding sense of guilt (i.e. death in Romans 7:9).
Consider this.
The lost will feel just this. Their minds are carnal - one with their flesh.
When they see God unveiled after their resurrection after the millenium,
they will see, in total, how sinful they are. They will naturally bear the
guilt that follows.
Because of *character* (consider the two houses and the storm), they will
respond to this sense of guilt a certain way. They will despair. This
despair will be so awesome, they will be destroyed. They will CRY for
rocks to fall on them. Judas is a type of this. God didn't condemn him.
The law (i.e. a deeper revelation of Christ's love) aroused a deeper sense
of his sinfulness and he HANGS HIMSELF ON A TREE (what a coincedence...the
cursed death entirely wrought by a spiritual reality inherent to sin!) NOT
by God inflicting some sort of punishment. All that took place was that
Judas was given a clearer glimpse of who he was.
I'll Continue...
|
| 907.93 | Justified By The Blood - A Cup's Worth (2 of 3) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 08 1996 15:24 | 56 |
| Continuing on...
Consider further...
Consider that our flesh has this characteristic. What happens to the
last generation? They go behind the veil. Their hearts are exposed to
fully the evil desires and passions of their sinful flesh. They SEE the
fullness of the evil of evil. They FEEL to be that evil person.
This is the day that the sun is darkened (Christ cannot be seen) and the
moon is red like blood (the church undergoes the cross experience).
In short, they experience fully the exact same guilt the lost do.
Go back to the two houses. It is the EXACT SAME STORM.
But, they survive. Why? The house was built on the rock - on Christ.
Built 100% by the merits of the cross. The cross gave that house a
different fabric. This house is righteous.
They respond to the exact same sense of guilt by a faith that eventually
sees through the darkness of misperception wrought by guilt. They do not
despair. They end up with perfect peace and joy.
I suggest that the exact same burden which destroys the lost is experienced
and endured by the saved. This burden is the storm, the rock, the fire,
the deep waters, the sword, the birth pangs, the cup, the baptism, etc., etc.
What does this prove?
Well, there is a controversy of issues between Christ and Satan. God told
Adam and Eve that sin destroys. Satan essentially told Eve that sin is
a viable 'alternative lifestyle.' I believe that Satan is alive today
partially because God is veiling a full revelation of His character thus
veiling, from Satan, a full revelation of 'his' character.
This demonstration settles the great controversy. Sin is demonstrated to
not be a viable lifestyle. Righteousness is shown to be SO VIABLE that
it endures the same burden the sinner is destroyed by.
Justification is not only being made right, but can also be _showing one
to be right_.
At the end of time, God is justified. He is SHOWN, by revelation, to be
just in all His ways.
Justice is shown to be according to a spiritual reality implicit in sin
and righteousness and one God Himself is bound to AND SUMBMITTED TO HIMSELF
ON THE CROSS. The basis of this reality is God's character of love.
Salvation and condemnation are entirely unarbitrary. (This blows away
the false concept of God needing to punish above and beyond what is inherent
to sin which concept is the underlying premise of the evangelical under-
standing of the plan of redemption.)
This is how the church destroys Satan in the judgment.
|
| 907.94 | Justified By The Blood - A Cup's Worth (3 of 3) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Sep 08 1996 15:24 | 65 |
| Continuing on...
Consider further...
I believe any Christian with sin in their heart is in the grave. I believe
they will be raised with the same character they had when they died. They
will rise to life and be given incorruptible flesh. I believe they will
experience 1 John 3:2-3 at this time, i.e they are perfected by beholding
Christ.
I tend to think this will be a painful experience, but one that may occur
in practically an instant as sinful flesh is no burden to them, they are
not surrounded by anyone to tempt them, and they are surrounded by Christ
and holy angels.
That is...they are now being made perfect. And just as Hebrews 11:39-40,
this being made perfect takes place AFTER the above-described experience
of the remnant. Let me add that they are being made perfect by the merits
of the cross.
With this context, consider rereading Heb 11:39-40 and 1 Corin 15:20-29.
*Do you take the "us" in He.11:40 to mean the end-time group? Assuming the
*human writer of Hebrews died and is now dead, why would he have included
*himself with an end-time group to be perfected in the flesh?
I see two possibilites here.
One, we can hasten or delay the time of the 2nd coming (Isaiah 5/2 Peter
3:12) and thus the last generation COULD HAVE BEEN THE ORIGINAL READERS OF
THE EPISTLE. (I don't believe God 'willed' for Ephesus to lose her first
love.)
Two, Hebrews has more than one spiritual application in some places. Heb
11:39-40 has some application to its time of writing and a more complete
one as applied to the last generation.
I believe in the 1st possibility.
I'll tell ya. Yes, it is my vantage point, but man does scripture just
support the everlasting gospel all over the place.
No more obscure OT verses! It just comes together and it is so AWESOME!
I'll end with this thought.
We are justified by the blood.
The blood is the word, the revelation of the cross (John 6:53,63/1 Cor 1:18).
Thus we are justified by the blood AS the word (or as revelation) for that
is what it is.
This is why the cross doesn't justify. The cross alone is nonrevelatory.
The High Priest shows us the cross. It is He who takes the blood (the word)
and sprinkles it in the sanctuary (our hearts).
I would say, metaphorically speaking, Christ has a CUP'S worth of blood
and some generation must receive the entire cup while laden with sinful
flesh.
Take Care Wayne,
Tony
|
| 907.95 | RE: .92 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Sep 09 1996 14:29 | 3 |
| So what is the grave, exactly?
What is eternal life, exactly?
|
| 907.96 | A Little Bit On Death and Life | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Sep 09 1996 18:26 | 34 |
| Hi Wayne,
Well, I think 1 Corin 8:2 is certainly in order here. "If any man
thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought."
What is the grave? Can I change that to, what is death?
I think there is more than one answer. Clearly, the death of
Romans 7:9 ("the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.")
differs from the physical death of Lazarus ("Lazarus is dead.")
Here's what I see...
1) physical death. The person is dead, i.e. the consciousness of the
person is nonexistent until and unless physical resurrection takes
place.
2) Guilt. The burden that results when sinfulness is perceived in
one's mind.
3) Despair. The response to #2 by the faithless. This ultimately
ends in final death, i.e there is no recovery from it. In contrast,
the saints are resurrected spiritually from #2, i.e. they respond
to #2 by a victorious faith that sees God's pardoning love.
What is eternal life? I'll be more generic and offer, "what is life?"
1) Being physically alive/having a consciousness.
2) Being righteous. This is eternal life for the gift of Christ is
the gift of His righteousness and life is a characteristic of
righteousness just as surely as death is a characteristic of sin.
Tony
|
| 907.97 | A Couple Questions | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Sep 09 1996 18:26 | 33 |
| Hi Wayne,
Question for you...
I posed the following:
We are justified by the blood.
John 6 tells us that the blood is the word (revelation).
I offered that it then follows that the blood justifies AS revelation
since that is what it is.
Let me add that the day of atonement was finished by a priest and
Hebrews says that Christ was not a priest on earth. Also Christ was
crucified outside the gate and atonement is finished in the sanctuary.
I suggest that the sanctuary is a model of our hearts and that Christ
being crucified in the outer court refers to Him being crucified out-
side of our hearts. (No revelation [blood] has made it into the heart
where it can do its justifying work.)
In lieu of the above, how do you substantiate a nonrevelatory justi-
fication? If you do see a nonrevelatory justification, given that the
blood is revelation, what justified and what happened to the sanctuary
as a model for the plan of redemption.
"Build Me a sanctuary that...
...I may DWELL among them."
Tony
|
| 907.98 | RE: .97 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Sep 09 1996 18:55 | 9 |
| Hi, Tony.
I'll take a shot at answering your questions after you've anwered mine.
:-)
I asked, "What is the grave, exactly?" and "What is eternal life,
exactly?" You answered two questions I did not ask.
/Wayne
|
| 907.99 | Not "Exactly" | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Sep 09 1996 21:13 | 14 |
| Hi Wayne,
I cannot answer a question like that because the word "exactly"
(to me) implies thinking one knows to a degree that deserves
rebuke from the word of God (1 Corin 8:2).
Honestly, the grave to me means death and my death answer _is_
my answer to you.
Eternal life, I believe, is the characteristic of one living
forever into the future and thus requires the state of righteous-
ness.
Tony
|
| 907.100 | RE: .99 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Sep 09 1996 21:22 | 9 |
| Sorry, Tony, for not being clear. I meant what "exactly" are the grave
and eternal life according to your understanding.
If the grave is death, then do Christians who physically die just cease
to exist until He appears?
And are you suggesting that eternal life primarily concerns the future?
/Wayne
|
| 907.101 | More On Death/Life | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 12:31 | 40 |
| Hi Wayne,
Yes, I believe Christians who physically die just cease to exist
until He appears.
This is a topic that has been duscussed at length over the years.
Let me say here though that when Jesus corrected the Sadducee's
who did not believe there was any life at all after death, He did
so by stating that there is a resurrection.
He did not do so by stating that God created man immortal or that
there is any state of life, after death, without resurrection.
Resurrection is not the raising of a physical 'shell' and uniting
it with an already alive consciousness. Resurrection is the
raising of dead to life.
About eternal life concerning the future...I'm not really sure
Wayne. I tie it in so closely with righteousness. Perhaps by
Jesus saying that he who has the Son has life, He is referring to
an inward experience of righteousness which is *life*. Perhaps
He is referring to the eventual state of living forever as such
a done deal that He says "You _have_ life."
I have no problem with referring to having eternal life in the
present tense even though one may die and lack life for some
finite period of time (only to be resurrected and have life
forevermore with Jesus).
Believing in death until resurrection is not distasteful (for me).
True, I cannot say that "Sister so and so who died is now with the
Lord" and be comforted. But, I can say that anyone who was born-
again and died knows no passage of time. There is no pain in that.
Their next conscious moment will be seeing the lovely face of
Jesus as well as of all saved persons at the glorious appearing
of Jesus Christ.
Tony
|
| 907.102 | RE: .101 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Sep 10 1996 14:11 | 15 |
| Hi, Tony.
When Paul prayed that our "whole spirit and soul and body be preserved
blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" in 1Th.5:23, what
do you think he had in mind? In other words, how do you think said
preservation might occur?
And what do you think Paul meant by saying, "For me to live is Christ,
and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my
labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt
two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far
better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" in
Ph.1:21-24?
/Wayne
|
| 907.103 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | maranatha! | Tue Sep 10 1996 14:24 | 4 |
| | Yes, I believe Christians who physically die just cease to exist
| until He appears.
To be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.
|
| 907.104 | Wrong Approach...So, Why Bother? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 14:59 | 74 |
| Hi Wayne and Mike,
This topic has been discussed at extreme lengths previously.
I have one summary, primary thought regarding treating this
and all other topics.
Truth does not emerge from isolated texts; it emerges from
an Isaiah 28 mode of Bible study; precept upon precept, line
upon line, here a little there a little.
In my view. you guys are approaching this incorrectly. You
have a belief system and it seems supported by *isolated texts*.
I feel I can respond to most isolated texts, but am sure I
lack the correct answer to all. There is much I do not know.
For example, I had no idea of the Corinthians "baptized for
the dead" text for years until one day I saw it as a parallel
text to Heb. 11:39-40. This fact, I offer as something extremely
important.
HOWEVER, I am convinced that if you strive to arrive at truth
AS THE BIBLE INSTRUCTS US TO, you will see the truth emerge
*not from isolated texts*, but from an avalanche of texts
interspersed throughout the sacred scriptures as they 'bounce
off each other' and grow in building an integrated whole - a
temple if you will.
In virtually every past discussion of the state of the dead,
the following occured...
The number of texts cited by the 'popular' belief was many.
The number of texts cited by 'my' belief was many.
The number of texts responded to by me to the popular belief
texts cited was moderate.
The number of texts responded to by others to my belief
was nil.
This has already begun. I have cited a text and the 'response'
is to completely ignore it and cite your own texts.
This is simply not how truth is arrived.
EVERY pillar debated position has texts that seem to support it
on both sides of the divide. Sunday verses Sabbath verses any
day. Immortality verses conditional immortality. Calvinism
verses free will.
We all tend to manifest what is, imo, an improper use of the
scriptures. Just get out those 'pet texts', ignore the 'pet
texts' of those we are discussing with and carry on.
Read the entire book of psalms with an open heart. Read Proverbs.
Read the whole Bible. Do a study of the word fire and find, for
example that the righteous dwell in the eternal fires (Isa some-
where) or that the flames that destroyed *Babylonians* was survived
by three Israelites. Let these jigsaw puzzle pieces have a say in
the building of truth.
Let the truth emerge.
That is simply how arriving at it works (in part).
I choose not to participate in a methodology that *doesn't work*.
Your methodology of taking just another 'pet text' while being
entirely silent with one of my own (given earlier) ones is all
the testimony I need to tell me to turn down any invitation to
carry on.
In some cases, I do have answers. But, it doesn't matter.
Tony
|
| 907.105 | RE: .104 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Sep 10 1996 15:38 | 23 |
| Hi, Tony.
Okay, your choice.
I just believe all Scripture must be reconciled to determine truth. So,
I was not trying to make a point with my questions on specific texts,
rather to understand how you reconciled what a verse seemed to say in
your larger context.
I won't speak for Mike, but I was really trying to understand your
view. My intent was not to debate. If you look back in this topic, I
think you'll find me asking questions and summarizing your answers to be
sure I heard you.
A challenge on your part to look at all of Scripture and see your view
is not constructive because I might say the same to you. You can assume
that I (or Mike or others) haven't studied Scripture as much as you, if
you like, but I don't think you want to go there.
I understand your unwillingness to answer more questions, though. I'm
willing to terminate further Q&A, if that's your wish.
/Wayne
|
| 907.106 | Elaboration | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 17:17 | 93 |
|
reply: Note 907.105
Hi Wayne,
*Okay, your choice.
Well, I could be persuaded! ;-)
*I just believe all Scripture must be reconciled to determine truth. So,
*I was not trying to make a point with my questions on specific texts,
*rather to understand how you reconciled what a verse seemed to say in
*your larger context.
I don't have a problem with that except as I'll elaborate below.
*I won't speak for Mike, but I was really trying to understand your
*view. My intent was not to debate. If you look back in this topic, I
*think you'll find me asking questions and summarizing your answers to be
*sure I heard you.
Oh. Good!
*A challenge on your part to look at all of Scripture and see your view
*is not constructive because I might say the same to you. You can assume
*that I (or Mike or others) haven't studied Scripture as much as you, if
*you like, but I don't think you want to go there.
You're right. I don't want to go there! I am inclined to consider
a strong possibility that while you guys may study the scriptures
a lot, an Isaiah 28 approach may not be paramount. I never said
(or hinted at) anything about *amount* of study. I certainly
hinted at *method* of study.
*I understand your unwillingness to answer more questions, though. I'm
*willing to terminate further Q&A, if that's your wish.
Well, let me elaborate...
From 907.98:
Note 907.98
*I'll take a shot at answering your questions after you've anwered mine.
*:-)
*I asked, "What is the grave, exactly?" and "What is eternal life,
*exactly?" You answered two questions I did not ask.
I then responded to these questions and expected you to follow
through as you stated you would above.
The following was your response (907.12):
Note 907.102
*When Paul prayed that our "whole spirit and soul and body be preserved
*blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" in 1Th.5:23, what
*do you think he had in mind? In other words, how do you think said
*preservation might occur?
*And what do you think Paul meant by saying, "For me to live is Christ,
*and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my
*labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt
*two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far
*better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" in
*Ph.1:21-24?
I truly do not believe an isolated study of the word will reveal
truth. I do believe it is arrived at by doing (mainly) slews
of word studies with Concordance in hand and comparing spiritual
with spiritual. To me, an example would be the birth pang thing
I offered. Thats why my replies in this conference are often
lengthy. I do chain studies. I see birth pangs here and I see
them there and I link and suggest truth that I feel I see emerges.
I would prefer some attempt at chain studies, however I don't mind
also employing isolated texts so long as the 'rough' frequency
of responses brought to the table by those of one belief type are
roughly equivalent to the number of responses brought to the table
by the other belief type.
In this case, I specifically asked for a reply. You explicitly
asked me to wait until I responded to your reply (which I thought
I did, but I appreciate that you found my response to be inade-
quate). You then opted to not do as you stated in 907.98 and
(instead) asked two more questions.
While I am willing to discuss isolated texts so long as the willing-
ness to respond is roughly equivalent, I am not so willing to
discuss if the willingness to respond to each other is lopsided.
Tony
|
| 907.107 | RE: .106 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Sep 10 1996 18:28 | 23 |
| Hi, Tony.
The irony is that my response to you was under development, even as we
spoke. I hadn't forgotten.
As to study methods, I assume by Isaiah 28 you mean "precept upon
precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a
little, there a little." (v. 10) I'm familiar with that method,
referred to as Inductive, deriving the general from the particulars.
All I'm advocating is that no particular can contradict the general so
derived. All particulars (specific verses) must reconcile to reveal
the whole (full counsel of God).
Assuming that I (or Mike or others) establish doctrine without inductive
study methods is probably not a prudent place to go, either. You've
flagged the danger in Deductive methods whereby a single proposition
might be used to support a general conclusion. That's why I favor
Inductive methods, just like you! :-)
Just wanted to be sure you weren't suggesting that your view was more
likely Truth because you use "better" study methods.
/Wayne
|
| 907.108 | Isaiah 28 Preferred By Me! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 19:15 | 23 |
| Hi Wayne,
I do much favor the Isaiah 28 method as I think this is where
'buried' truth is uncovered.
The main problems I have with the isolated text method are:
1) I do not believe God 'wrote' the Bible in such a way that
some truths are revealed that way.
2) There is always the possibility that one simply does not
understand what a text is saying. The 'isolation' method
of requiring reconciliation can seem to imply requiring
understanding all texts in the 1st place.
That "baptized for the dead" Corinthians verse is an excellent
example for me. Thats the one the Mormons rely on to defend
their baptizing by water immersion for dead people and why
they are so expert at geneologies. I felt I hadn't a clue as
to what Paul was trying to say for several years. This may
apply to several texts you bring up.
Tony
|
| 907.109 | RE: .97 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Sep 10 1996 19:25 | 66 |
| | We are justified by the blood.
** Justify can mean one or all of three things:
1) To show as being just, right or valid.
2) To provide sound reasons for; warrant.
3) To declare free of blame; absolve.
The Word of God accomplishes all three. The first two imply revelation,
the third does not. However, the Word of God has revealed that believers
are declared free of blame on the basis of Christ's atoning death (shed
blood).
Christ's atoning life accomplished, is accomplishing and will accomplish
the first two such that our being declared righteous is not by word only
but also in deed.
| John 6 tells us that the blood is the word (revelation).
** Blood is a metaphor for the word, but Jesus' real blood was also shed.
The death of Jesus is the basis of the third aspect of our justification.
There is penalty for sin, and Jesus paid the price in our stead.
| I offered that it then follows that the blood justifies AS revelation
| since that is what it is.
** I've agreed that the Word of God effects full justification, and Jesus'
shed blood was the basis.
| Let me add that the day of atonement was finished by a priest and
| Hebrews says that Christ was not a priest on earth. Also Christ was
| crucified outside the gate and atonement is finished in the sanctuary.
** Okay.
But I think that Christ was in fact identified on earth as a priest, i.e.,
His future ministry as our High Priest was indicated when He submitted to
John's baptism.
| I suggest that the sanctuary is a model of our hearts and that Christ
| being crucified in the outer court refers to Him being crucified out-
| side of our hearts. (No revelation [blood] has made it into the heart
| where it can do its justifying work.)
** Okay.
But Christ died and was raised so that we might live.
| In lieu of the above, how do you substantiate a nonrevelatory justi-
| fication? If you do see a nonrevelatory justification, given that the
| blood is revelation, what justified and what happened to the sanctuary
| as a model for the plan of redemption.
** See above. God's declaring the believer righteous does not require
revelation. That is His sovereign act. That His Word does reveal His
act attests to His grace, mercy and love.
Saying blood = revelation belies the fact that blood is more than
revelation.
We are cleansed by the washing of the Word. That's sanctification
befitting the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. The life of Christ seen in
the lives of believers shows God to be just, right and able to do what He
says.
/Wayne
|
| 907.110 | Mormons call this 'Sealing' | PHXSS1::HEISER | maranatha! | Tue Sep 10 1996 20:08 | 11 |
| | For example, I had no idea of the Corinthians "baptized for
| the dead" text for years until one day I saw it as a parallel
| text to Heb. 11:39-40. This fact, I offer as something extremely
| important.
FWIW, Mormons use this passage as a justification for practicing
baptism of the dead. The fact is that Paul was making a rhetorical
statement here because the pagans in Corinth were practicing this. It
is not condoned by scripture because it contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
Mike
|
| 907.111 | expository or bust | PHXSS1::HEISER | maranatha! | Tue Sep 10 1996 20:10 | 10 |
| | You're right. I don't want to go there! I am inclined to consider
| a strong possibility that while you guys may study the scriptures
| a lot, an Isaiah 28 approach may not be paramount. I never said
| (or hinted at) anything about *amount* of study. I certainly
| hinted at *method* of study.
Isn't expository teaching the method of study we're really talking
about? This is my preferred method of teaching and learning.
Mike
|
| 907.112 | Isaiah 28/Baptized for the Dead | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 23:07 | 39 |
| Hi Mike,
I do not know about the terminology you used. I am just saying
that I believe Isaiah 28 essentially says that the Word will
appear confusing and be understood as milk (those just drawn
from the breasts) unless a precept upon precept, line upon line,
here a little there a little study method is used.
I think it mainly means that comparing related passages all over
the entirety of the word will provide a clarity and remove the
'stammeringness' (confusion).
I think the baptized for the dead text refers to the need for a
generation to acquit God in the judgment/lay waste to all of
Satan's claims so that the plan of redemption can be fully
recognized as viable.
God appeals to conscious minds and demonstrates by revelation
of what His gospel produces.
Baptized for the dead refers to that remnant who are baptized with
Christ's baptism/drink of the cup He drank from, i.e. go behind
the veil, see all the lusts and passions innate to sinful flesh,
feel to be that sinner, and survive by the blood of Jesus.
Justice is demonstrated to be unarbitrary and entirely according to
a spiritual reality implicit in sin and righteousness. This demon-
stration was not able to be validated by any prior group as they
did not see enough of the transforming revelation (blood) of the
cross.
As Heb 10:1-4 says, very image perfects where symbol (shadow)
cannot.
Physical blood is shadow. The very image blood is the revelation
of the cross.
Tony
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| 907.113 | May Be Awhile | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Sep 10 1996 23:26 | 16 |
| Hi Wayne,
I'll reply, but it might be awhile. I'm interested in your
commentary on Christ's explanation to the Sadducee's, i.e.
how our Savior explained that there is life after death as
opposed to their misconceptions.
If I don't get to it tomorrow, it'll have to wait for a couple
weeks as I have next week off (going to my 20th high school
reunion).
I'm psyched!!! Flying to good 'ol Milwaukee!
Take Care,
Tony
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