| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 901.2 | Dispensations versus Covenant(s) | ROCK::PARKER | | Thu Jul 04 1996 15:54 | 69 |
| A dispensation is a period of time during which man's obedience is tested with
respect to a definite revelation of God's will. Seven epochs are generally
recognized by premillennialists:
1) Innocence. Man was created innocent, set in an ideal environment, placed
under a simple test and warned of the result of disobedience. The woman
fell through pride, and the man through deliberation (1 Timothy 2:14).
Although God restored the sinning creatures, the dispensation came to an end
at the judgment of the expulsion (Genesis 3:24).
2) Conscience. By an act of disobedience, man comes to an experiential know-
ledge of good and evil. Driven out of Eden and placed under the Adamic
Covenant, man was accountable to do all known good and to abstain from all
known evil and to come before God by sacrifice. The result of this testing
was complete degeneration ending in the judgment of the flood (Genesis 6-9).
3) Human Government. The declaration of the Noahic Covenant after the flood
(Genesis 8:20-9:27) put man under a new test, featuring the inauguration of
human government, the highest function of which was the judicial taking of
life. Man is responsible to govern the world for God. That responsibility
rests upon the whole race, Jew and Gentile. With the failure of Israel under
the Palestinian Covenant (Deuteronomy 28:30) and the consequent judgment of
the captivity, "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24) began. The world is
still Gentile-governed, and hence this dispensation overlaps other dispensa-
tions, and will not strictly come to an end until the second coming of
Christ.
4) Promise. From the call of Abraham (Genesis 12:1) to the giving of the
Mosaic law (Exodus 19:8). This dispensation was under the Abrahamic Covenant
and was exclusively Israelite.
5) Law. This era reaches from Sinai to Calvary. The period was a schoolmaster
to bring Israel to Christ and was governed by the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus
20:1-31:18).
6) Grace. This period began with the death and resurrection of Christ (Romans
3:24-26; 4:24&25). The point of testing is no longer obedience to the law as
a condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ with good
works as the fruit of salvation (John 1:12; 3:36; 1 John 5:10-12). The
predicted end of the testing of man under grace is the apostacy of the
professing church (2 Timothy 3:1-8) and the subsequent apocalyptic
judgments.
7) Kingdom. This is the last of the ordered ages regulating human life on the
earth, previous to the eternal state and involving the establishment of
the Kingdom promised to David (2 Samuel 7:8-17; Zechariah 12:8; Luke 1:31-
33; 12:8) and including Israel's restoration and conversion (Romans 11:25-
27) and her rehabilitation as a high-priestly nation in fellowship with
God and as head over the millennial nations (Zechariah 3:1-10; 6:9-15).
Application of the term covenant: [1] Properly, of a compact between man and
man; either between tribes or nations or between individuals in which each
party bound himself to fulfill certain conditions, and was promised certain
benefits. In making covenants, man solemnly invoked God as a witness and an
oath was sworn. Accordingly, a breach of covenant was regarded as a heinous
sin. As a witness to the covenant, a gift was presented or a heap of stones set
up. [2] Improperly, of a covenant between God and man. As man is not in the
position of an independent covenanting party, such a covenant is not strictly
a mutual compact, but a promise on the part of God to arrange His providences
for the welfare of those who should render Him obedience. We read of four such
covenants in the Old Testament with: 1) Noah; 2) Abraham; 3) Israel; and
4) David.
In the New Testament we read of only two covenants, the New brought in and
established by Christ to fulfill and in consequence supercede the Old covenant
(of law, with outward institutions and ritualistic services). In germ the New
covenant (of grace) existed from the first, involved in the promise of recovery
at the fall and manifested throughout man's history.
|
| 901.3 | AMEN! (and some covenant thoughts) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Jul 08 1996 13:26 | 45 |
| Hi Wayne,
Boy, my heart just said "AMEN!" when I read the Arminian view!
Thanks a lot for those two replies. They were a blessing to
me.
By the way...are the old and new covenants really delineated
by time? Galatians 4 seems to delineate them by personal
*experience*.
With the example of Abraham, it seems that when he relied on
Hagar (the flesh) to fulfill any promises, he was having an
old covenant experience and when he relied on Sarah (the Spirit),
he was having a new covenant experience.
I view the covenants differently. Briefly, I see it that all
persons of faith since Adam and Eve have had a 'holy' experience
which is some blend of old and new covenant, "Lord I believe,
help Thou mine unbelief."
I also see it that there have been times of dramatic increase in
light which light leads to deeper repentence for "the goodness of
God leadeth thee to repentence."
I believe ALL persons have had primarily an old covenant experience.
That is, their faith is minute compared to their unbelief.
HOWEVER, in the last days, the final generation of God's faithful
will be enabled to look into the most holy where the most holy
experience lies. In the last days, "knowledge shall increase."
The latter rain will come. That light will lead to such a heart-
change that God can testify, "Here are they who keep the command-
ments of God and have the faith *OF* Jesus!"
Finally, a 100% new covenant experience. The law has been
perfectly engraved in the heart by the Spirit of God. Perfect
sinlessness is the sure manifestation of an experience completely
devoid upon reliance on self (old covenant) and completely immersed
in reliance on God (new covenant).
A last day transition awaits! From some blend of old and new to
entirely new!
Tony
|
| 901.4 | New Covenant sealed by indwelling Holy Spirit | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Jul 08 1996 17:09 | 55 |
| Hi, Tony.
As I've said before, your extrapolation around covenants and "covenant
experience" is interesting, but I have not found your concept explicitly
revealed by Scripture.
The New Covenant was marked by Christ's death ("For this is my blood of
the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -
Mt.26:28) and the gift of the Holy Spirit ("<God> hath also sealed us,
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." - 2Co.1:22).
There is no such thing as transition of covenant, rather we are being
changed by the Word and the Spirit ("Now the Lord is that Spirit: and
where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with
open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed
into the same image from glory to glory, even as of the Lord the
Spirit." - 2Co.3:17&18).
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath
blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ
to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise
of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the
beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness
of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded
toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the
mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath
purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in
heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have
obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose
of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That
we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were
sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our
inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the
praise of His glory." - Ep.1:3-14
Believers under the New Covenant experience the following:
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the
Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as
are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not
received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the
Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself
beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And
if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if
so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to
be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." - Ro.8:16
/Wayne
|
| 901.5 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon Jul 08 1996 17:32 | 21 |
| Hi Wayne,
Ok I'm staring at this all carefully...I have a few questions...
901.1
Calvinistic View:
4) The system of doctrine called Calvinistic, Augustinian, Pauline,
should not be thus designed.
What does this mean? Is this doctrine different from the Calvinistic
view this heading is describing?
Arminian View:
What is unconditional election and which view supports it?
Jill
|
| 901.6 | more on Calvinism vs. Arminianism | PHXSS1::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Mon Jul 08 1996 17:38 | 1 |
| See also 600.3-600.6 and 600.12-600.15
|
| 901.7 | RE: .5 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Jul 08 1996 22:14 | 31 |
| Hi, Jill
| Calvinistic View:
| 4) The system of doctrine called Calvinistic, Augustinian, Pauline,
| should not be thus designed.
|> What does this mean? Is this doctrine different from the Calvinistic
|> view this heading is describing?
** The argument here is that this system of doctrine should not be called
Calvinistic/Augustinian/Pauline because the doctrine is Scriptural, not
attached to any man. The point is in keeping with point 3) preceding
wherein the element of human works or merit, including the thought process,
must not be introduced.
In other words, this system of doctrine is to be viewed as deriving from
God alone, built only on His grace.
Point 4) is argued by Calvinistic theologians. The system has been labeled
as Calvinistic, Augustinian and Pauline in various times and places.
Remember, John Calvin revived and modified/developed the doctrine of
Augustine.
| Arminian View:
|> What is unconditional election and which view supports it?
** See point 1) of the Calvinistic view.
/Wayne
|
| 901.8 | Augustine | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jul 09 1996 11:02 | 10 |
| Well, I have believed for some time that Augustine was part
of the "great falling away" in terms of the corporate church
heading into a period of darkness regarding understanding
truth.
I am not questioning this man's salvation (I haven't a clue),
but I certainly believe his contribution to theology to often
been a severe impediment to truth.
Tony
|
| 901.9 | More On Covenants (1 of 2) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jul 09 1996 11:56 | 80 |
| Re: Note 901.4
Hi Wayne,
*As I've said before, your extrapolation
Its not good to extrapolate, is it?!! ;-)
*around covenants and "covenant
*experience" is interesting, but I have not found your concept explicitly
*revealed by Scripture.
I think I have!
*The New Covenant was marked by Christ's death ("For this is my blood of
*the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -
*Mt.26:28) and the gift of the Holy Spirit ("<God> hath also sealed us,
*and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." - 2Co.1:22).
Whoooo boy! Where do I start???
First, because of my belief in much of what Romans 4 says and in
my belief that it has wide-ranging application, I don't see that
(some) things said to have already taken place really already did take
place. God calls those things which be not as though they are.
So, when it says God has sealed us, I am not so sure this is not
one such example.
Second, you mention the new covenant as being marked by Christ's
death. Actually, it seems more accurate to say that it is marked
by Christ's *BLOOD*. I see this distinction as huge especially
given the numerous times scripture alludes to the blood being
administered by the Priest (and *not* the sacrifice).
Hebrews 8:4
For if He were on earth He would not be a priest, since there are
priests who offer the gifts according to the law.
The blood is being administered even now by our High Priest. This
blood is what accomplishes the New Covenant which is the writing
of God's character (law) in our hearts. For it is that blood that
cleanses from sin. Yes, the blood was shed for the remission (for
context of what remission means, read all of Hebrews noting remission
appears in 9:22 - i.e. remission of sins, in context, means actual
removal from the consciousness) of sins, but it is the shed blood
*sprinkled* which accompishes this remission. It is sprinkled by
a Priest which Christ was not while on earth.
*There is no such thing as transition of covenant,
*rather we are being changed by the Word and the Spirit
The above are synonymous terms. Being changed by the word and
by Spirit is the transition in covenant. LOOK AT JOHN 6:53,63!!!
(The blood *IS* the word!!) The blood is the revelation of the
cross and it is this revelation which redeems from sin. This
"being changed" is not a one time, single moment in time,
transition.
The following scripture was written years after the cross and
refers to old not being entirely removed...
Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
Now what is *becoming* obsolete and growing old is ready to
vanish away.
I believe the new covenant could have been fulfilled shortly after
the cross. That is, the blood of the cross could have been fully
applied into the sanctuary and fully cleansed it. Or to put another
way, the message of the cross could have been fully installed into
the hearts of the corporate church and fully remitted sin (removed
sin from the consciousness of the last generation).
Thus Hebrews can refer to the old as near and ready to vanish away.
But, Ephesus lost her first love and there was a great falling
away. The blood, being the word, was largely lost sight of by
the corporate church.
I'll continue...
|
| 901.10 | More On Covenants (2 of 2) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jul 09 1996 11:56 | 67 |
| Continuing on...
*Believers under the New Covenant experience the following:
The new covenant is the writing of the law in the hearts of the
corporate church. This law is *being* written (present continuous
tense). It is not fully written. That is, the new covenant is
not fully entered into. It is not completed when the blood of
Calvary was shed, it is fully completed when that shed blood
is installed into the heart of the corporate church by our High
Priest.
The old is growing old and obsolete because the cross is the
guarantee that the day will inevitably come that the blood will
accomplish the new covenant and thus eliminate, in the hearts of
the church, any old covenant experience (which is sin).
Jeremiah clearly defines what the new covenant is and Hebrews
reiterates it (twice).
Wayne, I don't think your view squares well with a few scriptural
points (all of which you did not mention).
1) What the new covenant is.
2) Scripture's observation, postcalvary, that the old had not yet
fully vanished away - and all in the context of Hebrew's theme
which is the exhortation of the corporate body of God's faithful
to go on unto perfection, rest fully in Christ, i.e. which is
the finishing of the new covenant - i.e. the law being written
in the heart.
3) New covenant is marked not by the cross event, but by the BLOOD
of the cross.
4) This blood is ministered by Priest and not sacrifice and Christ
was not a priest on Calvary (Hebrews 8:4), but He is a priest
now.
5) The role of the blood is precisely the accomplishing of the new
covenant - it cleanses from sin (see Heb. 10:1-4 for example).
6) The entire theme of Hebrews.
Ensconced in Hebrews is the new covenant being mentioned *twice*.
The entire theme of Hebrews is the exhortation of the corporate
church to inhabit Mount Zion/go on unto perfection/go behind the
veil (which Christ did at Calvary)/perfectly rest in Christ/etc.
The behind the veil allusion is especially illuminating with
regard how the blood accomplishes the completion of the new
covenant (perfection of the church). As John 6 says the blood
is the word and as Paul says the message (or revelation or word)
of the cross is the power of God unto salvation, Hebrews *looks
forward* to a time when a group drinks in all of the message of
the cross. This dovetails perfectly with the idea of the blood
being applied by High Priest to the heart of the corporate church.
When the corporate church 'sees' that much blood (the behind the
veil experience), she cannot help but be perfected for the love
of Christ motivates us to live not for ourselves but for He who
died for us and rose again (2 Cor 5).
When we see that much love, we will be motivated perfectly to
live for Christ and not for ourselves. But, we can only see it
gradually as this love shows us our sin and we cannot see all our
sin at once (and live).
Tony
|
| 901.11 | RE: .9 & .10 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Jul 09 1996 12:23 | 11 |
| Hi, Tony.
I'm impelled to say no more. We've covered this ground before, and I
didn't open this topic for that purpose.
The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God,
and Jesus said He will guide me into all truth.
May the word of Christ dwell in us richly in all wisdom.
/Wayne
|
| 901.12 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Jul 09 1996 13:14 | 14 |
| Hi Tony,
re: .10
>The love of Christ motivates us to live not for ourselves but for He
>who died for us and rose again. When we see that much love, we will
>be motivated perfectly to live for Christ and not for ourselves. But,
>we can only see it gradually as this love shows us our sin and we
>cannot see all our sin at once (and live).
Now this I agree with. :-) Its beautifully said too.
Jill
|
| 901.13 | I'm Sorry About That | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jul 09 1996 16:01 | 5 |
| Hi Wayne,
Please accept my apologies for misusing this topic.
Tony
|
| 901.1 | ELECTION (Calvinists versus Arminians) | ROCK::PARKER | | Fri Jul 26 1996 15:05 | 139 |
| The word ELECTION in the Scriptures has three distinct applications: 1) To the
divine choice of nations or groups to possess unique privileges for performing
special services; 2) To the divine choice of individuals to a particular office
or work; and 3) To the divine choice of individuals to be children of God, and
thus heirs of heaven.
Theological controversies have been frequent and at times fierce regarding
election in the third sense. Calvinists hold that the election of individuals
to salvation is absolute, unconditional, by virtue of an eternal divine decree.
Arminians regard election as conditional upon repentance and faith; the decree
of God is that all who truly repent of their sins and believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ shall be saved. But every responsible person determines for him-
self whether or not he will repent and believe. Sufficient grace is bestowed
upon everyone to enable making the right decision.
Calvinistic view:
1) According to the Scriptures, election is not of works but of grace, where
not of works means man can do nothing to determine whether he is one of the
elect or not. For the descendants of Adam, this life is not a probation. We
stood our probation in Adam, and stand individually no longer.
2) The sovereignty of God in electing men to salvation is shown by the fact
that repentance and faith are gifts from God. These fruits of His Spirit
are the consequences and signs, not conditions, of election.
3) The salvation which is of grace must be of grace throughout. The element of
works or human merit must never be introduced, and this would be the case if
repentance and faith were the conditions of election.
4) The system of doctrine called Calvinistic, Augustinian, Pauline, should not
be thus designated. That though taught clearly by Paul, particularly in
Romans 8:9, the system was taught also by other writers of sacred Scripture,
and by Christ Himself. Reference is made to Matthew 11:25&26; Luke 4:25-27;
8:10; John 6:37&39, et al.
5) The sovereignty of God is evidenced in dispensing saving grace to establish
the temporal conditions of mankind. Some are born and reared in the
surroundings of civilization, other of barbarism. And precisely so some are
blessed with the light of the Gospel, while others, dwelling in pagan lands,
are deprived of that light, and consequently are not saved.
The system of strict Calvinism outlined above has received various modifica-
tions by theologians of the Calvinistic school. The General Assembly of the
Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, May, 1903, adopted the
following: "We believe that all who die in infancy, and all others given by
the Father to the Son, who are beyond the reach of outward means of grace,
are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who works when and
where and how He pleases."
The Arminian view:
1) The purpose of God to redeem mankind was bound up with His purpose to
create. The Lamb of God was "slain from the foundation of the world."
God would not have permitted a race of sinners to exist without provision
to save them. Such provision must not be for only a part but for the
whole of the fallen race. To suppose the contrary is opposed to the
divine perfections. Dooming to eternal death any number of mankind who
were born in sin and without sufficient remedy would be injustice.
2) The benefits of the Atonement are universal and in part unconditional.
They are unconditional with respect to those who, through no fault of
their own, are in such a mental or moral condition as to make accepting
or rejecting Christ impossible. One leading denomination holds that "All
children, by virtue of the unconditional benefits of the Atonement, are
members of the kingdom of God." This principle extends to others besides
children, both in heathen and Christian lands. God alone is competent to
judge which, in varying degrees, human beings are responsible, and thus
the extent to which the unconditional benefits of the Atonement apply.
3) The purpose or decree of God is to save all who do not, actually or
implicitly, willfully reject the saving offices of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Among those who have not heard the Gospel may exist "the spirit of faith
and the purpose of righteousness." Thus virtually even those who have no
knowledge of the historic Christ determine whether or not they will be
saved through Christ. They to whom the Gospel is preached have higher
advantages and more definite responsibilities. To them repentance toward
God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are the conditions of salvation.
4) Upon all men God bestows some measure of His grace, restoring to the
depraved will freedom sufficient to enable accepting Christ and being
saved. Thus, in opposition to Calvinists, Arminians assert that not only
was Adam, but also are his depraved descendants, in a stage of probation.
Arminians argue that:
1) The whole trend of the Scriptures is to declare the real responsibility of
men, and their actual power to choose between life and death.
2) The Sciptures explicitly teach that the will of God is that all men should
be saved. Only those perish who wickedly resist His will (1 Timothy 2:4;
4:10; John 5:40; Acts 7:51, et al.).
3) The Sciptures declare the universality of Christ's Atonement, and in some
degree the universality of benefits (Hebrews 2:9; John 1:29; 3:16&17;
1 Corinthians 15:22; Romans 5:18&19, et al.).
4) The doctrine of unconditional election necessarily implies unconditional
reprobation; and that is to charge God with cruelty.
5) The doctrine of unconditional election necessarily implies also the
determinate number of the elect, a point which Calvinists hold, though
without explicit teaching of Scripture. To the contrary, the Scriptures
both generally and particularly teach that the number of the elect can be
increased or diminished, the purport of all passages in which sinners are
exhorted to repent, or believers warned against becoming apostate, or to
"make" their "calling and election sure" (Matthew 24:4&13; 2 Peter 1:11,
et al.).
6) The Sciptures never speak of impenitent and unbelieving men as elect, as
in some cases would be proper if election were antecedent to repentance
and faith, and not conditioned thereby.
7) The whole theory of unconditional election is of the same tendency with
fatalism.
8) The logic of unconditional election is opposed to true evangelism.
9) The essential features of the Arminian doctrine of election belong to the
primitive and truly historic doctrine of the Church. Augustine was the
first prominent teacher of unconditional election, and he, regardless of
the logical inconsistency, granted that reprobation is not unconditional.
This doctrine of Augustine was first formally accepted by the Church in
529 A.D., in the Canons of the Council of Orange, approved by Pope
Boniface II. The prominency of unconditional election in the theology of
Protestantism is due largely to the influence and work of John Calvin,
who, at the age of 25, wrote his Institutes, in which he not only set
forth the Augustinian doctrine of unconditional election, but also taught
unconditional reprobation. John Wesley and his followers were responsible
in large measure for reviving and developing the doctrine of Arminius.
The limits of this summary do not permit an examination of the contested
passages of Scripture. For this, the reader is referred to works of systematic
theology and to commentaries. For the Calvinistic view, see Hodge, Systematic
Theology. For the Arminianism or Methodist view, see Watson, Institues; Miley,
Systematic Theology; Whedon, On the Will and Commentary on Romans; and Wesley,
Sermons, particulary 54 and 62-64.
|