Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Re: Note 891.0 by FABSIX::T_TEAHAN
    
    When I started reading your note, I hoped you were talking about
    swearing in the work-place.  That's a pet peeve of mine right now, as
    I've just joined a department with a higher level of swearing than the
    one I was in before.
    
    But you were talking about verbal abuse.  I'm afraid the only verbal
    abuse I tend to get is either on IRC from Americans or from drunkards
    in the street.  My work-place is a group of professionals, they tend
    not to abuse for some reason.  So I'm not sure I can comment
    constructively.
    
    However, I was the target of plenty of verbal abuse during my school
    years; I was the loner, the only guy in my classes-of-same-year that
    was so interested in computers and physics.  My adaption to that may be
    of some use.  Though it did impact my personality development.  ;-(
    
>   Maybe it's just me. I do not boast. I come across as a guy that some
>   may think is a punching bag. I'm light on anger, patient most of the
>   time with dealings, and i come across as a nice guy where people can
>   take out their anger on and feel i'll be less to respond than most.
    
    I do this.  I can be attacked, goaded, and pushed, and I will _not_
    lose my temper.  Who of you Australians in here remember when I last
    lost it?  I'm told it's one of my interesting traits.  One of my
    managers in a previous job told me just before I left that he had been
    trying to goad me to lose my temper for years, and hadn't managed it.
    
    Of course, this comes across also as a lack of empathy, a state of not
    caring.  But if you care as well!  That's a powerful witness to those
    around you.
    
    I actually _worry_ when I am attacked.  I worry that God's going to
    blow my attacker to pieces before they get a chance to apologise and
    seek forgiveness!
    
>   I wouldnt swear at them but
>   maybe yell at them or know enough of their faults and weaknesses to go
>   after them, this isn't a right response and my biggest question is what
>   should be the right response? As i mentioned, take a stand in
>   correcting them? Turn the other cheek?(in which, as it has built up, is
>   harder now for me to turn the other cheek but want to set these people
>   straight, if i can) Any comments?
    
    What should be the right response?  I feel it varies.  For me it varies
    most according to whether the person is above me or below me, which
    depends on the environment we're both in and what the subject of
    discussion is.
    
    For example, I lead my manager if it's a technical issue.  He leads me
    if it is a budgetary or procedural one.  Personal level; everything I
    say is my point of view only.  Anybody who says anything personal to me
    is treated as if they are speaking _only_ their opinion.  Potentially
    valueless.
    
    Yes, I correct them.  Yes, I deflect the attack by claiming lack of
    knowledge on my- or their part.  Yes, I sometimes turn the other cheek,
    often as a technique to apply the guilts to them.  ;-)
    
    Correcting is most rewarding for me... I can talk better than most I
    meet; I think it was this that I developed as a defence in my youth.
    
    Deflective laughter, or deflective interpretation are also excellent
    techniques.  I often turn an attack into a jest, implying that the
    sender of the attack is making a joke.  This most often applies when
    talking to Australians, since this is the standard Tall Poppy Defense
    response.
    
    Deflective interpretation is a variant of the laughter.  I rapidly
    search for all alternative meanings of what the attacker said, pick
    either the most amusing or the most irreverent, and reply _based on_
    that incorrect interpretation of what they say.
    
    I only rarely reply by escalating the attack.  But when I do it's
    usually 'cause I think it will help the situation by showing that an
    attack was made.
    
    My wife Petria just read this and suggested a few things...
    
    My behaviour varies according to who I am being attacked by.  My
    behaviour depends very much on who else is present, and how close each
    is to me.  This is why I keep quiet in groups a lot; I can't work out
    quickly enough how to respond, because there are too many variables!
    
    James

    
    I have always been very sensitive to other peoples words.  I could
    not understand why they were being so harsh, critical and abusive.
    
    I carry the scars from my early childhood to just a short time ago
    of the verbal abuse.  For me, as it is with you, I would rather 
    someone physically abuse me then to verbally abuse.  
    
    Much of what you identified about yourself and your feelings and
    also what James Cameron said I identify with as well.  So I understand
    your pain.
    
    Today things are much different.  People at work may verbally abuse me
    from time to time but it has no impact whatsoever.  In fact it has 
    become quite the opportunity for the exercise of wisdom and character
    on my part.
    
    One day a lead engineer became upset at something someone had done. He
    started to verbally abuse me.  He didn't just make quips quickly, he
    was just a few inches from my face yelling.  I listened for a moment
    and then said to him in a calm voice. "You appear to be angry."
    
    He instantly deflated and floundered.  Excuses flew, reasons came and
    went.  I didn't have to say another word.  By the end of the day he was
    asking me if I wanted a position with his group.
    
    What I feel a person is doing when they cut another down with words is
    they are making an attempt to invalidate that person so that they can
    feel more validated.  In other words they are suffering from the I am
    right syndrome.
    
    Natural and carnal man must believe that he is right for if he does not
    his entire inner kingdom or empire collapses.  So to prove he is right
    he must exercise his position to strengthen it and reassure himself
    that he is indeed right and everything is OK with his inner world of
    his mind(which is where the world really exists).
    
    He exercises it by attacking other peoples empires and causes them to
    collapse if possible.  If he is the stronger, through being most verbally 
    abusive, and he sees he is being victorious he is assured of his
    rightness and cans more confidence.  He thus expands his empire of
    which he is god.  Might makes right of sorts.
    
    However these empires that people create are as fragile as a house of
    cards.  One word from the heart directed at thier heart can shake that
    house.
    
    Look at what I have said above and now compare it to War between
    nations.  It is the same thing.  What you witness between two people
    who verbally abuse one another is war.  Someone must come out the 
    victor and the victor is right.
    
    But all of this is in the mind.  To truly overcome the abuses one must
    surrender the mind to the Lord and accept that they are not right, that
    they are wrong and ONLY God is right.  The Lord Jesus wants to give us
    His righteousness so that we are right and true in Christ, not in
    ourselves.
    
    As this revelation becomes more clear to our hearts and we live by the
    righteousness of Christ our own empire in our mind crumbles and the
    Kingdom of God is placed in our heart.  We then live in our hearts and
    not our heads.  No one living in thier head can defeat one living in
    thier heart for the Wisdom of God is given to the heart not the head.
    
    >>I'm just at a point where i don't know how to handle it.
    
    You cannot handle it.  All you can do is surrender it to the Lord. You
    cannot understand it with your human mind and in even trying to it will
    only bring more grief.  The Lord wants you to surrender all of your
    abilities, this is why he brings us to the end of our abilities to show
    us that anything we try to do is futile.  Only He can do it.  Faithful
    is He who calleth you who will also do it.
    
    There is great peace in surrendering everything to the Lord.  He is
    using even those verbally abusive people in your life to reveal how
    much you need him and how "nothing" is your ability to do what is
    right.
    
    Bob
    
    

        
    There was a man who had a beautiful daughter.  In fact her beauty
    exceeded all the woman of the village and the surrounding countryside
    for many miles.  As it was the custom the man's daughter was eventually
    betrothed to a young man of one of the families of the village.
    
    Soon they were married and began thier life together.  But because she
    was so beautiful the husband found himself to be very angry.  He did
    not know why he was angry because he loved his wife with a great love.
    
    As time passed his anger grew and he would go into rages of angry
    fits if his wife spoke with anyone or helped anyone.  Many of the woman
    of the village would speak to him and enrage him with thier words about
    his beautiful wife.  They would accuse and rail at her in very subtle
    and not so subtle ways in the market place.
    
    She endured here husband's anger and the people's words for she
    was as beautiful a woman within her heart as she was comely to look
    upon. 
    
    At last the husband could stand no more and divorced his wife.  She
    fell into a great sorrow and for many years wept and prayed. But her
    sorrow turned to anger.  The man she had married and who left her
    continued to express his anger toward her when ever he felt he needed
    to and since they were in the same village it was convenient.  She had
    no one to help her.
    
    As the years passed her anger grew though she could not understand why
    she was angry and she felt that it was not within her to want to be
    angry but none the less she felt it.  
    
    Eventually a woman in the village who was not very beautiful began to
    abuse the beautiful woman with her words.  She would question the woman
    and when ever the beautiful woman gave her reply the other woman would
    condemn the answers and point out how wrong she was.  
    
    The beautiful woman prayed to God and said, "Lord, why am I so angry at
    this woman who is questioning me for you know that I do not feel anger
    towards the people, but this woman I am angry with.  You also know how
    I have become angry since my husband left me and I do not know why.
    Please help me your poor servant girl."
    
    Shortly a wise man visited the village and the beautiful woman went to
    visit him to hear his words.  She spoke to the wise man and told him of
    her anger and all that happened to her and of her great sorrow and she
    cried.
    
    He said to her, "My child there is a wall of bitterness within your
    heart and it sits upon a foundation of unforgiveness and its
    cornerstone is injustice.  And yet there is something more that you
    must discover on your own."  The woman left and walked about the
    marketplace and visited all the places of her past to ponder.
    
    The unattractive and abusive woman followed her around the marketplace
    and everywhere she went and railed on her accusing her of being wrong 
    and the unattractive woman was very angry and the beautiful woman 
    became very angry and soon went home.
    
    That night she dreamed a dream and in the dream she saw her husband and
    he had gotten two wives and she said, "Why do you have two wives?" and
    she was exceedingly angry.  And he said to her, "Because one is not
    enough." 
    
    She awoke from the dream and knew why she was so angry with her husband
    and why the unattractive woman was so angry with her and this
    revelation set her free from her own anger and the sorrow fell away and
    the wall of bitterness fell and the foundation of unforgiveness 
    dissolved and the cornerstone was removed, for beneath the cornerstone
    was the ground and there dwelt the cause. 
    
     
                               

    (So, the second woman married the guy?)

    
    Ha ha ha ha...heh heheheh!! :-)
    
    

    
    
    
    I apologize for the laughter but your reply caught me just
    right this morning. :-)
    
    >>So, the second woman married the guy?
    
    Actually no, but that is an interesting question.
    
    The answer is contained in the parable and can also be found
    in the Book of James Chapter 3.
    
    Bob

    Whoops, I'm just leanrning this sytem, so now I have to learn how to
    delete a note.
    
    But, what I want to say is, that 1) there's nothing you can do stop
    others from speaking abusively.  2) we can affect their reponse to us
    by our response to them.
    
    We should not be doormats, but, we can get people to look at them
    selves by turning the comments around.   We can also make it clear that
    we will not own criticism or abuse towards ourselves that
    is unjustified.  Just tell the person to deal with the problem at the
    right source, whoever that is, and leave it at that.  I wouldn't even
    bother trying to point the person to the true "owner" of the problem,
    just state that it isn't you.  It also disarms people when we tell them
    we can undertand their frsutration at this time; but let them know
    clearly that their reaction is ineffective.
    
    The other respnse, if we are involved, is to say, "When you are ready to
    talk seriously about this and work it out, I'll be happy to.  Let me
    know." And walk away. You oculd even follow-up and ask the person the
    next day how they are doing, did they get resolution, do they want to
    talk, etc.  
    
    You can also seek out the Human Resources person assigned to your group and
    confidentially ask them what can be done.
    
    -- Marian 

>    Whoops, I'm just leanrning this sytem, so now I have to learn how to
>    delete a note.
 


     go to the note you wish to delete.  At the NOTES> prompt, type
     "delete". (only on notes you have authored).


   
    

 Jim

    re: 891.3
    
    I give up, give me a hint.  Whats "ground"?  The world?
    
    
    Jill

    I personally don't like the emphasis on beauty.  And the fact that an
    ugly person outside is identified with ugly inside.  
    
    I personally have never met an ugly creation of God.
    
    Nancy

      Hi Bob,
    
        I enjoyed your .2 BIGTIME.  Very humbling!
    
    						THANK YOU,
    
    						Tony
    
        By the way, Jill, what is usually "revealed"???

    Someone once said, "Beauty is only skin deep...
    
    but ugly goes to the bone." ;-)

    Sorry Mike.... but that was NOT funny..
    
    /me wipes grin off face

      Hi Jill,
    
        Check out the parable of the sower.  (That would be my
        guess and Bob can let us know if I erred.)
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony

	The tongue is the member used as the outward manifestation
    of the heart.  When one witnesses the outward manifestation, either
    people abusing one another with their words, or blessing others what
    they are actually seeing is a piece of the heart or spirit of 
    the person.

	The parable is summed up in these verses.

	Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you?
	let him shew out of a good conversation his works with
	meekness of wisdom. 

	But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts,
	glory not, and lie not against the truth.
	
	James 3:13-14

	Bitterness is an attitude based upon beliefs about how one 
has been unjustly treated either by God or people.  This bitterness 
is given life through unforgiveness.  That is why the wise man in 
the parable spoke of the wall of bitterness sitting upon a foundation 
of unforgiveness which had a cornerstone of injustice.  

	But the ground upon which the cornerstone sits is envy.  
Envy is a powerfully strong desire to have something one can not have.  
When one can not have it, or possess it, then they feel that they 
have been unjustly treated by God or people or life, how ever they
may see things.

        This feeling of injustice now gives that person the feeling
they have the right to not forgive others and thus the bitterness 
grows like a root in them.  Bitterness is manifested in an insidious, 
ever present anger which robs the soul of peace and joy and hope.

	All of this mixture of bitterness, unforgiveness, injustice,
because of envy results in what can come from the tongue.

	The husband in the parable was envious of his beautiful
wife, he wanted her but could not possess her as he wanted to.  He
could not get enough of her.  In addition he was self protective 
and he would listen to the words of the woman of the village about
her and receive justification from them so he was justified in his
anger toward his wife. He would not humble himself to God.

	The not so beautiful woman was also filled with envy and
would attack the beautiful woman verbally because she desired the
woman's beauty or so she thought, this was a belief as well.
    
      She wanted something she felt she did not have.
She would ask a question and then point out the error of her words
to tear down the beauty of the woman in her own eyes, thus could
    say, "See this woman may be beautiful outwardly but I know
    more than she does"  

	The unattractive woman was also self protective and would 
bait and switch the beautiful woman to justify her feeling of 
the other woman inferiority though the unattractive woman felt 
inferior but was in denial of it. She also would not humble 
herself before the Lord.

	The beautiful woman discovered that she had envy buried
deep within her as well.  This envy or jealousy was over her deep
need for the people that she wanted in her life.  She was jealous
over her husband.  But she saw within herself the anger and did
not accept it as part of herself but rejected it, humbled herself
and asked God for wisdom and He gave it to her.
    
    She was angry with the unattractive woman because the jealousy
    of the unattractive woman connected or touched the jealously
    within the beautiful woman and thus this unconscious knowledge
    resulted in the manifestation of anger.
    
	There is so much more hidden within the parable but it 
would take me hours to speak about it all.

    
    	We tend to look upon the outward appearance of things but
    God looks at the heart and he desires that we also look at the
    heart as well.
    
	Listen to what comes out of your mouth and ask the Lord
to give you wisdom and to reveal what is in your heart.  When the
Lord reveals the hidden things of the heart, it will be enlightening
to you and you will taste the freedom that the Lord has for each of
us.

	This is all a process and we must be patient with ourselves 
and with the Lord as he does this.  He will use others that verbally
abuse us and who act poorly toward us to show us what is also within
us both things of the character the Lord is developing and the things
    the Lord wants to remove.
    
      As we humbly acknowledge what He reveals to us through all that
we endure, he will free us from the hinderance and we will grow.

	It needs be that offenses come said the Lord Jesus. Woa unto
	whom they come through, but nevertheless It needs be.

Bob

    

      Only the mind of God could have revealed that to you Bob!
      Too brilliant for our feeble minds!
    
      Oh and I was wrong...I thought the ground was the heart.
    
    						Thanks!,
    
    						Tony

    
    Tony,
    
    >>Only the mind of God could have revealed that to you Bob!
    >>Too brilliant for our feeble minds!
    
    	I agree with you.  There is so much that I am learning
    as well from the parable.  There are new and deeper things
    in the parable that the Lord is showing me.  
    
    >>Oh and I was wrong...I thought the ground was the heart.
    
    	In a sense you were not wrong because this is what you
    saw in the parable.  The Lord wanted this part to stand out
    to you.
    
    In the parable of the sower of the seed some seed fell in
    the thickets and sprung up then the thickets strangled  
    the plant.  Jesus said that the plant in the thickets was
    a heart that heard the word, started to grow but the cares
    of this world over took the plant.
    
    That is a heart of envy.  A heart that wants the things of 
    the world. There is different grounds, pride, envy, confusion,
    strife, etc.  but it is all within the heart. 
    
    Bob 

    
     Bob,
    
        Please continue to give us anything in your heart that you have
    learned concerning any subject, it would be great to read more from
    you.
    
        respectfully, Thomas
    
    
    
        

    
    Thank you Thomas.
    
    I appreciate your desire to read what has been written and your
    interest.
    
    As the Lord places things upon my heart to share with you and the
    readers of the conference I will freely give as it has been freely
    given to me.
    
    I feel that I of myself have nothing to offer to anyone, even my
    experience and learnings are nothing if the Holy Spirit does not
    quicken them to others.  It is the Holy Spirit that does the work
    and gives the light.  I am thankful to be an unworthy servant. 
    Just to be near the Master, Jesus, is all I desire.
    
    Allow me to share this one thing. 
    
    Hearing from the Lord is like being a book with nothing written on the
    pages.  As the book we must not have any expectations as to what or
    how or where the Lord will write upon our pages.  In fact we must not
    expect to even be written upon or not.
    
    We have many expectations.  Some expect they will not hear the Lord and 
    others expect to hear.  As the book some turn to a certain page and
    then expect the Lord to write on that page but the Lord may surprise us
    and write upon another page instead.
    
    Sometimes he may write upon a page and we do what he has written but
    the outcome does not make sense to our human understanding and we
    question as to wether we really did read the words correctly.  When we
    go back to the page to find the words again we find they are gone.
    
    The Lord is cultivating us so that we grow and faith grows in us. 
    For faith to grow the Lord brings us through trials and experiences
    which require us not to lean on what we expect the Lord to do but
    rather we lean on Him and His moment by moment revelation of Himself.
    
    Bob

Hello to all -- & my apologies for having first directed this prayer into
    its own Note (i.e 893.0 --- I deleted this Note and moved this prayer
    into where I first intended it to go -- I believe it belongs here.).
    
    At any rate, I thought I would share this prayer with you all.
    
    *********************************************************************

	Father, in the name of Jesus, I make the quality decision to take 
control of my tongue.

	I renounce, reject, and repent of every word I have spoken against
You and Your operation in my life.  I cancel the power of those words and
dedicate my mouth to speaking Your Word.

	Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks; therefore, I
set myself to fill my heart with Your Word.  Put a watch, Oh Lord, over 
my lips.

	I set myself to speak in line with The Word.  As Your child, I
confess that I am healed --- I am the righteousness of God through Jesus.
I am victorious in every area of my life because You have made it so.

	Father, I thank you that I no longer will be doubleminded by the
words of my mouth.  I let The Word of Christ dwell in me richly in all
wisdom.  Everything I do, whether in word or deed, I do in the name of
The Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks unto You.

						         In Jesus' name,

                                                                   Amen.
    
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