Conference yukon::christian_v7

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                      THIS IS A DIGITAL SPONSORED EVENT
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Name: Glen Silva
Site: HLO2-2/C12
Node: BIGQ::SILVA
DTN:  225-6306


	Hi Everyone!


		Well, we have gotten the Walk for Life (AIDS) organizing 
	started! With Digital not doing much of anything this year, we will 
	have to do the bulk of it.

		In 1994 we raised $38+k, with 138 walkers. In 1995 we
	raised $4300+, with 21 walkers. Last year we had one person who
	came in with $1+k. And he wasn't planning on walking due to an
	injury.

		In 1996 we have got to do better. Not for Digital's 
	sake, but for those who could really use the money. 

		Site coordinators are really needed badly. Without
	them, it is going to be hard to get the message out.

		You're probably asking what would be required? That's
	an easy question to answer. We need people to hang posters and
	put pledge sheets somewhere where people can get to them. If
	that was all you did, then that would be fine. If you planned 
	an event, then you would probably have to have a meeting. But
	that is totally up to you. 

		HLO is having a contest for kids, where they draw a
	picture dealing with AIDS. The winner gets a t-shirt, and 
	everyone else gets their pictures on a poster. The t-shirt 
	will also be given to anyone who walks.

		Gear has said they would donate a jacket to us for the
	person who gains the most money from pledges. That will be
	determined by the person who comes up with the most money at
	pre-registration. (which looks to be in Littleton and Hudson
	this year)

		So all that is left is getting site coordinators for the 
	various facilities. We do have people who said they would cover the
	following facilities:

		ZKO1, ZKO2, ZKO3, TAY2, MRO1, NQO SHR & HLO1-3


		If you are not at one of these facilities, and you can hang
	some posters, please let me know so I can add you to the list. 


	Thanks!


	Glen


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                      THIS IS A DIGITAL SPONSORED EVENT
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	There is a web page for the 2 walks. We will be updating it with AIDS
information for the Walks. Where the money goes, how much was raised, and any
walk information one might need. You will find it at:


   http://sdtad.zko.dec.com/pub/csgperf/group/wwlk/wwlk-aids-walk-info.html


Glen

    
    First off, contrary to the news media and the AIDS lobby, most folks are 
    not close to someone with AIDS.
    
    Secondly, what fundamentally is different about AIDS such that the
    church should treat it any differently than other life-threatening and
    even terminal diseases?  And what obligation does the local church
    have, if any, to minister to or support AIDS-related organizations 
    outside of its body or community?
    
    Why don't we have notes; Cancer and the church?  Heart disease and the
    church?  Malaria and the church?  Ebola and the church?  And so on?
    
    jeff
    
    

AIDS gets so much press because it has most seriously affected the politically
active liberals who already had strong organizations in place to get their
message out.

News organizations, theatres, and other media groups have, indeed, lost
between 10-30% of their employees to the disease.

The disease itself carries a strong message that many of their liberal
sacred cow causes are, in fact, detrimental to human health.

Getting a cure for the disease will allow them to go back to their socially
destructive lifestyles that were becoming extremely widespread in the early
eighties.

For this reason, they lobby every organization to come to their aid.

The Church has always come to the aid of people in need -- the Church built
most of the first hospitals all over the world.

AIDS should not be any different than any other disease, but see paragraph 1.

/john

    
    I perceive there needs to be awareness of AIDS and dealing with it, 
    particularly in the "Church".  Most of the folks I know within the 
    church do not know someone with AIDS or anyone who might be in the 
    high risk groups.  And since people are human, the lack of contact 
    with an issue can make us a little fearful of that 'unknown'. 
    
    With other terminal diseases like cancer, there currently is not 
    the social isolation of those who have the disease(s).  There USED to be
    social isolation for those with cancer, but that has changed over the 
    past 20 or so years.
    
    I am probably unusual in that I know/knew several people with AIDS.
    Most of whom have died.  And I know many more who I expect to hear 
    at any moment they have AIDS as well.  
    
    It really breaks my heart.  
    
    And not just from their passing.  But because in most cases, because
    of their disease, they were isolated from most of their friends and 
    families.  Many of us didn't know about the disease until it was too
    late to offer support because people close those infected were hesitant
    to let very many people know there was an issue because of the stigma
    associated with the disease.
    
    If someone is diagnosed with heart disease or cancer or brain tumor, 
    others are usually told so there is opportunity for people to offer 
    support in a timely manner.  With AIDS patients, few people are told.
    
    The 'Church' does need to offer support to those with AIDS as with 
    any disease.  And I know that is the intent of most of the 'churched'
    people I know.  But, the reality is that we might not have the
    opportunity to assist because we may not hear about such cases.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

| <<< Note 871.3 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| First off, contrary to the news media and the AIDS lobby, most folks are not 
| close to someone with AIDS.

	Jeff, I believe the media says most will know someone with AIDS in
their lifetime. I hadn't heard of what you mentioned above.

| Secondly, what fundamentally is different about AIDS such that the church 
| should treat it any differently than other life-threatening and even terminal 
| diseases?  

	Theretically, there should be no difference. But from the onset, AIDS
has had a stigma attached to it. How one gets AIDS should in no way have any
effect on how the person is ministered to, cared for, or loved. But with this
disease, there has been a wall of sorts there for many people.

| And what obligation does the local church have, if any, to minister to or 
| support AIDS-related organizations outside of its body or community?

	That would be something left up to the church body, I guess. A message
of love is what needs to be conveyed whether from a church or not. The church
could help out in both ways.

| Why don't we have notes; Cancer and the church?  Heart disease and the
| church?  Malaria and the church?  Ebola and the church?  And so on?

	I don't see why we couldn't, actually. How people are viewed when they
have some of these diseases can be pretty sad. Clearing up misconceptions would
go a long way at developing love and caring for all, from all. 



Glen

| <<< Note 871.4 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| AIDS gets so much press because it has most seriously affected the politically
| active liberals who already had strong organizations in place to get their
| message out.

	John, do you really think that the only ones who have done anything 
about this are politically active liberals? And out of the pal's, do you think 
that only the ones with AIDS have done anything? 

	Let's look overseas, where the press has been high for a lot longer
than the US. Let's look at the early days of the disease in the US. Hardly no
press. When Magic Johnson said he had AIDS, all of a sudden people from all
communities realized that anyone could get it. What do the two have in common?
That anybody can get it. And at that point, the press comes in.

| News organizations, theatres, and other media groups have, indeed, lost
| between 10-30% of their employees to the disease.

	Where did this number come from, and how is it supposed to play in all
this?

| Getting a cure for the disease will allow them to go back to their socially
| destructive lifestyles that were becoming extremely widespread in the early
| eighties.

	Wow....then I would guess that anyone who smokes, drinks (even wine),
is over the weight their supposed to be at, should not have anyone look for a
cure for cancer, heart/liver disease, etc. Because they would only go back to
their socially destructive lifestyles that were becoming extremely widespread
for centuries. Btw John.....I can think of one definitely, but a possible 2nd
one of the above that you fit into. But I guess when the shoe is on the other 
foot, there does not seem to be a problem.

| AIDS should not be any different than any other disease, 

	I agree....it should not be...and hopefully someday, it will become
that way.


Glen

| <<< Note 871.5 by CSC32::HOEPNER "A closed mouth gathers no feet" >>>


| And since people are human, the lack of contact with an issue can make us a 
| little fearful of that 'unknown'.

	This is so true. But if fear is based on misconceptions, then they can
be cleared up.

| There USED to be social isolation for those with cancer, but that has changed 
| over the past 20 or so years.

	And when we can get to that point with AIDS, then it will be treated
like any other disease. (imho)

| they were isolated from most of their friends and families.  

	Yes! This is where the church can help so much at correcting!



Glen

    i have a cousin who has had hiv for 12 years and now has the AIDS
    virus. he's failing fast and i want to go and witness to him. he still
    lives with his (roommate) who also has AIDS but at this time is not as
    sick as my cousin. how am i going to do this? they are as liberal as
    can be and their hearts are sill the same in their beliefs. im not sure
    how im gonna handle this. any advice?
    
        thomas

| <<< Note 871.9 by FABSIX::T_TEAHAN >>>

| he's failing fast and i want to go and witness to him. he still lives with his
| (roommate) who also has AIDS but at this time is not as sick as my cousin. how
| am i going to do this? they are as liberal as can be and their hearts are 
| sill the same in their beliefs. im not sure how im gonna handle this. any 
| advice?

	Thomas, do you not think one can witness to about God to liberals? That
is definitely a fallacy. If you go in with a damning attitude, well, then yeah,
you will probably fail. But from your note, I don't get the impression that is
what you would intend to do. You can go in, you can TALK about love, blend into
God's love, and talk about how the two are much better when they are one. The
act for getting the disease is done. Bringing that into the forfront right away
would do nothing more than ruin things. I would focus on the love. That is 
something that is probably going to be needed more than anything.

	There is the possibility of two things happening that would be bad.
That your cousin rejects the love from God due to preconcieved notions about
Christianity, or that he might turn around and say something like, "God doesn't 
love me, because I have this disease!" If either of these two things happen, 
then ease back. If you go in thinking that a change is going to happen, you may 
very well go away disapointed. But if you really want to see a change, make 
yourself available to see him as often as possible. Don't just discuss God, but
discuss the past you had together, see a movie or two, have dinner. If he sees 
that you are doing this out of love, and not as a last ditch attempt because 
he is going to die, you might get a bit further with him. And if anything is
going to work, it has to be due to you love him. And I get the impression that
you do.

	Good luck!


Glen

| <<< Note 871.10 by USDEV::LEVASSEUR "http://ultranet.com/~bigbooty/index.html" >>>

| Your cousin still has hiv...if that is in fact what causes aids
| at all. You would not have hiv, then go on to have the aids virus;

	Ray, AIDS and HIV deal with the same thing, yes. T-cell count. When the
t-cell count drops below 200, you go from being HIV+ to AIDS. If you want more
on the facts, you can look at the AIDS page at:

               http://quince.tay.dec.com/www/decplus/aids.html

| And Glen, is this another "bait the hook and cast the rod out" seed to see how
| hateful those nasty x-ians are? 

	Nope. Don't need to do that. I know Jeff said most people aren't close
to someone with HIV or AIDS, yet he has talked about knowing someone, and in
fact, in this string, so haven't others. And if you notice, this string has been
a very good one. People are talking, discussing. That is really cool. 

| Are you waiting for'em to trant on about all those filthy sinners with aids 
| should be banned to a desert island, or Area51 our in Nevada?

	I would hope that would not be discussed. If it were, then there is
nothing anyone could really do. But with what has happened so far, has been
very uplifting.

| SO to answer Glen's question, if he's not just trolling for suckers is, it 
| depends on the church and the individuals. I'm sure there are churches where 
| "pastor Rod Flash" rants on to his flock to get flame throwers and burn down 
| homes of people with aids. IN my exerpience this has been a small minority. 

	I agree. It IS a minority. Most really DO want to reach out. Thomas is
a good example of that. But how do they? What fears, or misconceptions do they
have (if any)? Getting past that will go a long way at helping others.



Glen

I think a topic on "AIDS and the church" is perfectly appropriate, because,
let's face it - AIDS is significantly different from most other diseases, and
because the church is, for the most part, failing miserably in dealing with
it.

The main reasons that AIDS is different from other diseases are:

	1) The primary reason that it is treated differently is that the
	   disease is MOSTLY contracted through sinful behavior - drug use,
	   promiscuity, etc.

	2) It is currently fatal and incurable, and it is communicable.  
	   Though it is clearly not HIGHLY contagious, it is contracted from 
	   another person.

Cancer, for example, has neither of these stigmas.  There is no stigma
associated with contracting cancer, any more than in being hit by a car. 
Neither is it contagious.  We have no difficulty reaching out to those who
are struck by this tragedy.

But the church is having a disastrous reaction to AIDS.  First, we are
failing once again at separating condemnation of sin from compassion for
suffering.  This is not helped by people proclaiming that the behaviors which
usually are the cause of contracting the disease, such as promiscuity, are
not sinful, and to reach out to them we must accept their sin.  But that's no
excuse.  Are we not called by Christ to bind up the broken hearted?  Once
someone has AIDS, insofar as dealing with that disease is concerned, the way
they contracted it is immaterial.  They are suffering from it, and we as the
church are called to help them.  We are not called to validate their sin,
even if they try to demand that of us, we are in fact called to call them to
repentance.  But neither are we called to make repentance from that sin a
condition upon which we'll decide whether or not we'll help them in their
suffering.

To say nothing of the innocent people who have contracted the disease through
blood transfusions or some other means and are lumped in and condemned with
those "sinners."

Jesus never went to people who were enmeshed in sin and suffering because of
it and demanded that they renounce their sin before He would help them.  He
simply helped them out of compassion for their suffering, and many then
repented BECAUSE of His grace to them.  That some received His grace and did
not then repent did not cause Him to withhold His grace.  Where in the world
do we get the idea that we should do differently?

The church - the real church of Jesus Christ - should be leading the world in
reaching out to people with AIDS.  Instead, we are leading the world in
condemning them, shunning them, and telling them it's their own fault they
are suffering.  Christ weeps.

The other problem is when people hear the words "communicable, fatal,
incurable" together they just freak out.  It is pretty clear that the disease
is not communicable through casual contact, though this is not as clear an
absolute as some would present it.  It may not be absolutely true, as some
claim, that there is NO chance of contracting AIDS by touching or hugging
someone with AIDS.  But is abundantly clear that at the very least this is a
very low risk.  Yet we treat people with AIDS as if they were lepers - as if
the slightest touch could kill us.  Where is our commitment to Christ?

We're so comfortable in our affluent life.  You can ask a Christian in this
country to give some money to help someone out, but take a risk?  Forget it. 
Where is the love of Christ that led the Moravians to sell themselves into
drudgery, pain, and certain death as galley slaves to witness to the other
galley slaves?  Christians should be the ones who are willing to touch the
untouchable, to reach out to those who need help, regardless of the cost to
themselves.

It is true that most of the AIDS support currently is intertwined with
organizations that support the very behaviors that cause AIDS, and we should
not support those organizations.  But the fact that most of the AIDS support
comes from those groups and not from the supposed followers of Jesus Christ
is a stain upon the church.
 
Glen, when you provide a full list of who the money for the AIDS walk is
going to, if the organizations focus on relieving the suffering of AIDS and
the list does not include organizations which support immoral behaviors, I
will be glad to support it.  Though I doubt I'd be able to because of my
schedule, I would even be glad to participate in the march.

Paul

I think the one big difference between AIDS and other diseases has been 
the associations made with it.  Some political.  But people have contracted
AIDS through other ways than sexual.  I think the church should be care-
ful not to turn their backs on people with HIV/AIDS even though it has 
these associations.  

However, in some cases cancer also has some stigma attached to it.  I was
at a lunch with a work group once who did not realize that my mother was
in the final stages of terminal cancer.  They began a conversation about 
how people could "win" against cancer if they lived a healthy lifestyle and
were positive in their outlook. They pretty much said that it was the person's
fault to get cancer and succumb to it.  I knew better than that but was not
able to retain my composure.  My mother had not fit any of the criteria that's
listed as being high-risk for cancer, and I know it was not her mind or emotions
that were at fault! I think my tears and outburst probably shocked them all,
but it did put an end to one very niave and insensitive conversation.

Leslie

| <<< Note 871.13 by USDEV::LEVASSEUR "http://ultranet.com/~bigbooty/index.html" >>>


| one of my people in my parish wo has been hiv + for 16 years, has had less 
| than 50 t-cells since 1986 and is still not sick. 

	Err...Ray....AIDS does not make you sick. AIDS kills off your t-cells,
which combat disease. People will die of complications of other things.
Pnuemonia is a big one. 

| I know two people who died from aids complications who had over 500 t cells. 

	The key word is complications. If you have 500 t-cells, and that is not
enough to fight off <insert virus>, then you will die from the complications.
Now as far as the t-cell count goes, I can't say why they said AIDS. I do have
my suspisions, though. I have heard people talk about doctors who view HIV &
AIDS in the same light. If a t-cell count is 500, they still view it as AIDS.
But according to reality, it is HIV.

| Well anyway I won't argue with you Glen, since you most probably DO have all 
| the most accurate information on aids as well as Christianity and would rate 
| a definite A++ in social/political/spiritual....etc, well at least that's hte 
| impression I get

	<grin> Ray, Ray, Ray.... clarify this one! :-)



Glen

	Paul, what an incredible note! Thanks for writing it! 

	And once I get the list, I will post the ENTIRE thing.

	Another thing you could do as well, if you find the list has what you
view as questionable groups on it, then select any one of the groups that you
don't view as questionable, and do what you will. 



Glen

| <<< Note 871.16 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "He must increase - I must decrease" >>>

| but that it is difficult to - because their belief set is antagonistic to the 
| truth that Jesus Christ is the only one who can offer salvation.  

	Thanks, Andrew. I think it all comes down to the delivery used. My
friend John who went into work one day and told everyone how the world was
going to end and if people didn't repent now, they would go to hell, is an 
example of how not to go about doing this. (people with AIDS kind of fit the
above if they are sick)

| The fact that we are *all* fallen, and thereby naturally excluded from
| God's perfection is a better start point, because it clarifies the
| significant need of every person, and the immense personal love expressed
| in God's individual provision for those who will accept it...  But Thomas
| will need to wait on the Holy Spirit's inspiration to know the precise
| words and timing.

	Andrew, it's the last part that is going to be key. Not knowing his
cousin, I can't know for sure where he is at with God. So that part is very
key. 


Glen

    I cannot echo enough the notes written by Mary Jo, Paul, Ray and
    Leslie.
    
    I think to be naive enough to say that because AIDS may the majority of
    the time be contracted through immoral behavior shows a judgemental
    attitude of which God declared sinful.
    
    I don't care why any human being is dying, if they are dying they need
    a loving, healing hand through the agape that is placed in our hearts
    by God himself.
    
    It is not my place, nor your place to judge that person.  It is OUR
    places as Christians to show Christ to them.
    
    
    In the following verses it is very clear what our commandment is to the
    brethren, but because God loved the "World", in my heart I can do no
    less...
    
    1John 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down
    his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 
     17  But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need,
    and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of
    God in him? 
     18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue;
    but in deed and in truth. 
    
    With love,
    Nancy

 Amen..

 .22 was "amening" .20.





 Jim

| <<< Note 871.21 by USDEV::LEVASSEUR "http://ultranet.com/~bigbooty/index.html" >>>

| .17 Well Glen, you just come across as an expert on a wide platform of issues;
| educating the unwashed and ignorant masses into a proud era of enlightenment

	Ray, any information I have ever gotten has been from reading, or being
part of that ignorant mass! I have seen a lot of misconceptions I have had
about a lot of things over the years. I'm sure there are others I haven't even
figured out yet, or will happen in the future. I would rather try and not have 
people go on with misinformation if possible. An expert? Nope. If I know
something, I like to share it, though.

| one does not have to be promiscuous to become infected. I have known
| a rather large number of people "in the life" who to this day indulge
| in all the cardinal sins of unsafe sessual behavior, even with people
| who who they later found out died, who to this day are uninfected. 

	Then they should consider themselves lucky. Remember, unless infected
seaman gets into the blood stream, it isn't going to do any harm. And of course
one could have had sex with someone who died before they were infected.

| Now about sinful behavior; what about 5 pack/day smokers, who go on
| to develop lung cancer, etc or chronic alcoholics who get liver cancer
| or cirrosis? This does not get played up anywhere as badly with stigma
| as hiv. 

	Then why don't the people stop complaining about <insert disease> not
getting the attention that hiv/aids gets, and go out and do something about it?

| Do you think for one minute places like AIC...sorry AAC and it's ilk would 
| ever want to see a cure? Certainly not, 

	Ray, what do you base this on? I'm curious. Assumptions, or fact?



Glen

    How do your churches deal with the attendance of AIDS patients?  Do you
    allow it or do you risk the infection of the children and other
    believers?   Do you ask them to stay at home and send them tapes?
    
    I know of one local church where an AIDS patient was asked to leave the
    church because his son said to the pastor, "Daddy is bleeding on the 
    toilet seat."  This was a small church with only 1 toilet.
    
    btw - there was a recent incident in an Italian soccer league where an
    HIV+ player accidentally bumped heads during a game with a non-infected
    player.  The non-infected player became HIV+.  Given the similar
    contact between soccer and basketball, it has caused me to re-evaluate
    my stance on Magic Johnson.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 871.25 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| How do your churches deal with the attendance of AIDS patients?  

	I would hope no differently than any other people who attend.

| Do you allow it or do you risk the infection of the children and other
| believers?   

	Could you go into specifics about risks that would be involved?

| Do you ask them to stay at home and send them tapes?

	Talk about driving them away from God.

| I know of one local church where an AIDS patient was asked to leave the church
| because his son said to the pastor, "Daddy is bleeding on the toilet seat."  
| This was a small church with only 1 toilet.

	This type of misinformation is what I am talking about. In the time
that it would take the kid to say daddy is bleeding on the toilet seat, and
them telling him to leave, the disease would have been LONG dead. When it hits
the outside air, it dies. If the guy had bled, and never cleared it up, no one
would be infected. The disease just does not live in the outside world. To make
this guy go home, was probably the worst thing that could have been done. 

| btw - there was a recent incident in an Italian soccer league where an
| HIV+ player accidentally bumped heads during a game with a non-infected
| player.  The non-infected player became HIV+.  

	Uh huh.... and now maybe you can tell us how this ties in with being
bumped. Detail would help a lot.



Glen

>	This type of misinformation is what I am talking about. In the time
>that it would take the kid to say daddy is bleeding on the toilet seat, and
>them telling him to leave, the disease would have been LONG dead. When it hits
>the outside air, it dies. If the guy had bled, and never cleared it up, no one
>would be infected. The disease just does not live in the outside world. To make
>this guy go home, was probably the worst thing that could have been done. 
    
    I think you're the one that is misinformed/biased.  The CDC has
    documented cases where medical personnel have become HIV+ from blood
    splattering onto their exposed skin.  You also have the case of the
    Florida dentist spreading it even though he wore gloves.
    
>	Uh huh.... and now maybe you can tell us how this ties in with being
>bumped. Detail would help a lot.
    
    The point is that we don't know nearly enough about this virus as we do
    others and there are now strains of HIV that can survive exposure
    to the outside world.  Go see a movie like "Outbreak" and tell me we
    know everything about this virus.
    
    Mike

 871.28 set hidden.






 Jim

    In case there's any misunderstanding, making charitable contributions
    is one thing, but endangering your life is another.  I think raising
    money to help rid the world of disease is a noble effort, but it
    doesn't change the problems the church now has.  We have to minister to
    the needy, but it's hard to balance this without knowing 100% what the
    risks and consequences are.  We don't have the knowledge base for AIDS
    that we have for other contagions.  Until that knowledge becomes common
    to the public, the church has to proceed with caution.

    Mike

       From love comes truth. I'll go and visit my cousin and his
    (roommate) and i'll pray before i do so and let the spirit lead, with
    in mind, some things you people have mentioned in this conference. If i
    feel lead out of love to tell truth principles of God, i shall. God
    doesnt beat around the bush when he gives us truth out of love. I'm not
    Jesus but when Jesus was here on earth, in the physical, he told it
    like it is, "out of love" he wasnt worried about favor from man but to
    please God.  We are fearful sometimes to tell it like it is, worried we
    might get sued or offend someone and they might not like us anymore.   
          The AIDS topic was brought up at a time ive been thinking about
    my cousin and his roommate, their souls. Their beliefs are more
    liberal than mine so i was just asking your thoughts on how to handle
    this as best as possible. I was once, the liberal of all liberals so i
    understand GRACE and MERCY because the LORD saved a wretch like me.
          God is still looking at my cousin and his roommates heart in the
    sense of where it is at. They have AIDS, they are sick in body but
    worse is where their hearts are at, not with God. How do i know? Do
    they not still live with eachother? I cant get into the details of the
    proof that there is no acceptance of Christ and repentance but i
    know this is true. God knows my heart that i truly love them and my
    motive is not to walk in there house and put on a preaching show, i
    will be fragile and gentle in spirit but will not accept and compromise
    with the sin. My motive is to be used by God to reach them anyway
    possible by the holy spirit.
             Thomas
    something.

 Amen, Thomas.





 Jim

| <<< Note 871.27 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| I think you're the one that is misinformed/biased.  The CDC has
| documented cases where medical personnel have become HIV+ from blood
| splattering onto their exposed skin.  

	You will have to dig that one up for me, because I know I have never
seen a case where that has happened. And I usually try to keep caught up on the
CDC stuff. 

| You also have the case of the Florida dentist spreading it even though he 
| wore gloves.

	Maybe you could enlighten me as to how it all happened? 

| The point is that we don't know nearly enough about this virus as we do
| others and there are now strains of HIV that can survive exposure
| to the outside world.  Go see a movie like "Outbreak" and tell me we
| know everything about this virus.

	Mike, please tell me that you aren't tying in a hollywood movie to
facts. Can we use hollywood to acurately describe God? Spreading mis-information
has got to be the worst thing one can do. Please show some detail into the two 
examples you have shown. I think once detail has been established, we can go 
from there. Not listing all the factors involved is not going to solve
anything.


Glen

| <<< Note 871.30 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| In case there's any misunderstanding, making charitable contributions is one 
| thing, but endangering your life is another.  

	More hysteria. Yawn. 

| We have to minister to the needy, but it's hard to balance this without 
| knowing 100% what the risks and consequences are.  

	Mike, if you happened upon a building and you could hear a voice from 
inside screaming for help, would you help out? If your answer is no, then at 
least you would be consistant. But what does God instruct us to do? 

	Oh, about the consequences..... just what are they? I don't see how
ministering to one with AIDS is going to put you at risk.



Glen

	Cool, Thomas!

    Politics and religion, we are at it again! ;-) Some believe the two
    should be somehow seperated when they should be as one. Who says? The
    word of God. Gods laws are to govern a people, protecting them, etc.
    The laws of God, the laws of nature, the laws of man. Which shall
    prevail? God's.   (just a side commentary)
    
         thomas

    
I'm still interested in insight from folks concerning the following
    questions:
        
    >Secondly, what fundamentally is different about AIDS such that the
    >church should treat it any differently than other life-threatening and
    >even terminal diseases?  
    
    
    As folks have pointed out, AIDS patients are often stigmatized by its usual
    relationship to immorality.  But does a stigma require a significant 
    distinction in the way a church should minister to a sick person?  In
    other words, do we have any specific examples or practical advice in
    the Bible which we can implement, in the case of AIDS sufferers, that
    would not apply to other terminally ill people?
    
    >And what obligation does the local church
    >have, if any, to minister to or support AIDS-related organizations 
    >outside of its body or community?
    
    This is a direct question in response to Glen's promotion of a secular
    fund-raising event as an unquestionably good and appropriate activity
    for the Christian and by the title, for the local church.  How does
    your church respond to such invitations?  What do you think is
    appropriate?
    
    Personally, my church would view our obligations to the local body
    first as a priority.  We would view our obligations in the local
    community second.  And outside of our community third.  In any case we
    would never support a non-evangelical, secular political organization as 
    an approved and supported ministry of the church.  However, individual
    member's support of such organizations would be a private matter
    between the member and the Lord.
         
   >Why don't we have notes; Cancer and the church?  Heart disease and the
   > church?  Malaria and the church?  Ebola and the church?  And so on?
    
   > jeff
    
   I think John answered this question very satisfactorily.
    
    jeff 

| <<< Note 871.37 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| As folks have pointed out, AIDS patients are often stigmatized by its usual
| relationship to immorality. But does a stigma require a significant 
| distinction in the way a church should minister to a sick person?  

	To be honest, if it were brought up even, that is all anyone I know is
asking for. That would mean to get past stigmatizing the groups, and treat them
as you would anyone else who had a disease they were dying from.

| This is a direct question in response to Glen's promotion of a secular
| fund-raising event as an unquestionably good and appropriate activity for the 
| Christian and by the title, for the local church.  How does your church 
| respond to such invitations?  What do you think is appropriate?

	The same way they would to any other, I would imagine. There are many
other groups that raise money for a whole host of other diseases. And there
could be groups that some find questionable on there, as well. But what could
be done is to choose a group specifically that appeals to you, and go from
there. I would not expect someone to give time or money to the AAC or APW if
they did not feel the organization met what they were looking for. But IF there
is a recipient on the list that they think they thought was good, then you're
on your way.

	Take the United Way. There are organizations with that that I don't
care for. But I give to the ones I find ok. I wouldn't expect anyone else to do
any different. People don't even have to give money. They could just end up
helping out, or ministering to someone in the church, a whole host of things
are possible. 

| I think John answered this question very satisfactorily.

	Jeff, it comes down to if you want it heard, want a note started, don't
stand back and complain that it isn't happening. Go out and do it. 


Glen

Hi Glen,

|jb Secondly, what fundamentally is different about AIDS such that the church 
|jb should treat it any differently than other life-threatening and even terminal 
|jb diseases?  

>>	Theretically, there should be no difference. But from the onset, AIDS
>>has had a stigma attached to it. How one gets AIDS should in no way have any
>>effect on how the person is ministered to, cared for, or loved. But with this
>>disease, there has been a wall of sorts there for many people.

If one has received the AIDS virus through immoral behavior of any kind, or even
from innocent behavior (like getting a blood transfusion), isn't there a
difference in how they should be ministered to but which does not preclude
"caring" for the person any differently?  Surely the unbeliever whose disease 
is the result of actual sin must hear this fact and must be given hope and 
comfort in the form of the gospel and Christian discipling.  I think it is
vitally important, and as evangelical Christians an obligation, that
we offer the unbelieving, hopelessly ill the only hope there is - 
reconciliation with God through Christ and forgiveness of sins in order
to live with God eternally.

| And what obligation does the local church have, if any, to minister to or 
| support AIDS-related organizations outside of its body or community?

>	That would be something left up to the church body, I guess. A message
>of love is what needs to be conveyed whether from a church or not. The church
>could help out in both ways.

I saw a very pertinent saying the other day:

"Truth without love is brutality,
Love without truth is hypocrisy."


jeff

    
    RE: -1
    
    How would GOD distinguish between getting AIDS through a 'sinful'
    behavior (for an unbeliever) versus getting AIDS through a nonsinful
    behavior (for an unbeliever)?   I don't think there are more 'demerits'
    for one versus the other, is there?  
    
    Yes, we need to speak the truth in love.  But whether a person has 
    sins like murder or sins of omission, they are equally meriting
    separation from God unless they come to terms with him and confess 
    their sins and declare Jesus is Lord.
    
    We just need to use care (and the Lord's guidance) in how we minister, 
    in how we show love.  We need to take care of the physical needs as 
    well the spiritual (something about telling a poor person to be warm
    and well-fed?...)
    
    And as far as taking the risks?  If you are directed by the Lord to 
    minister to folks with potentially contagious diseases or folks who 
    potentially could murder you or steal from you, don't you think the
    Lord is big enough to provide protection for you?  Or maybe, the Lord's
    plan is for you to suffer physically as well.  If that is his will, 
    then we need to acknowledge that and do as he would have us do.
    
    Bottom line, we need to love folks as the Lord loves us. 
    Unconditionally.
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    
    Hi Mary Jo,
    
    I was unclear.  I was responding to Glen's belief that it doesn't
    matter how one contracts AIDS, the ministry is the same and that we
    must just love them.  And I think the underlying concept here is that
    the cause of the disease is unimportant to ministry.  In one example, 
    AIDS is the actual result of sinful behavior (drug abuse, for example, 
    and probably addiction) while the other (blood transfusion) is not sinful 
    behavior.  To be sure the unbelieving in either case need Christ.  However,
    it is naive to suggest that aside from general physical care these two 
    cases require the same ministry in the full sense of the word.
    
      
    jeff
    

| <<< Note 871.39 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Surely the unbeliever whose disease is the result of actual sin must hear this
| fact and must be given hope and comfort in the form of the gospel and 
| Christian discipling.  

	I don't think this would be a problem, actually. But it depends on the
approach that was used, along with the relationship between the person
ministering and the person listening. I think a lot of people will not care for
the finger pointing approach. I think most are sick of that. But by building a
relationship, you may get the same message out, but just not as fast. You can
discuss your beliefs, but I don't think there is any need for passing
judgement. (not saying all would, but some might)  

| "Truth without love is brutality,
| Love without truth is hypocrisy."

	I would agree with the above, too. But where Rome was not built in a
day, you may have a hard time throwing truth at someone who may not be a
believer, without first building a relationship.



Glen

    Re: Many
    
    I have come to this string a little late so bear with me.
    
    First I'm amazed at some of what I'm hearing. Jesus did not pick and
    choose people based on some risk factor! Do you think he is going
    to be happy with someone who says, "well I'm not going to help so and
    so because the risk are to great". I think that he calls us to take
    great risks!
    
    As for how contagious this disease is; My wife is a Clinical Social
    Worker for Rhode Island Hospital and works with people who have
    hemophilia. A large percentage of the population that she works with
    are HIV+. Why, because of transfusions, not immoral behaviour, why
    because the drug companies where more interested in money and did not
    test the blood factors when they know there was a risk. There are many
    that have this disease and did not get it from immoral conduct, even
    if they did Jesus demands that we give them our love.
    
    I believe it is possible to contract the disease from blood splashing
    on your skin only if you have an open wound where it contacts you.
    I believe most hospitals have protocols to minimize the risks, i.e.
    the wearing of gloves, masks and eye shields. However let me rely to
    you how difficult it is to contract, as Glen has already indicated.
    
    Many of the nurses and doctors that my wife works with must draw blood
    from their patients that are HIV+. This they do with great care, in fact
    they have whole protocols (procedures) for the taking of blood. In spite
    of that sometimes they will actually get stuck by a needle they just used.
    They then have to be tested for a period of up to 1 year or 6 months, I'm
    not sure. My wife knows of several people this has happened to and
    guess what they are not HIV+, they did not contract the disease. This I
    tell you to indicate how difficult it is to contract the disease if you
    are outside of the high risk groups.
    
    Oh well my $0.02 worth. I'm just stunned by the lack of love in a
    Christian notes conference, although I will say some have exibited
    the love that I would expect.
    
    Peter

	Peter, that was a great note. Thanks for posting it. I think you have
done more to help clear up many misconceptions that people may have had, or at
least get them to re-examine them. Thanks!

	About the non-love part. I agree that maybe 1 or two people have been
unloving, but I thing the majority have been great! And the one or two noters
who are viewed as unloving could be seen as that because of fears and
misconseptions. With any luck, through conversation in here, we may be able to
get to the bottom of this. 

	And the two people that I have enjoyed conversing with in this string
the most has been Jeff and Wayne (offline). Lots of great questions, and
queries. 


Glen

    | "Truth without love is brutality,   ----i like this
    | Love without truth is hypocrisy."
     
              [I would agree with the above, too. But where Rome was not
    built in a day, you may have a hard time throwing truth at someone who
    may not be a believer, without first building a relationship.
    
       Glen,
          
          With respect, not everyone has a relationship with the LORD so
    he doesnt have one with them. When he was on earth, in the physical, 
    he still told truth to those who did not have a relationship with him.
           Im not saying we "throw" anything at people and im not saying to
    go asnd buy a megaphone and get a soap box but i am saying lets tell
    the truth, as our hearts are in the right place, with love. I explain to
    a child "why" it is dangerous and wrong to cross a street without
    looking both ways. making sure there is no cars or anything else(i give
    specifics) coming towards you and that it is clear to cross, it is a
    law to the pedestrian. I'll explain Gods truth to one that needs it
    because i know, with conviction, that Gods ways work and explain 
    why, because i care for that soul. Some may say im forcing my belief,
    etc. on someone. Id rather tell them truth out of love than sit there
    and yes them to death and hear them telling me why things didnt go
    right because i know sin was the root. True, God doesnt force himself
    on anyone but there still is a hell and im convicted to do what i can,
    as lead, to see their souls not to perish.
    
             in him,   Thomas
                                                                      

| <<< Note 871.45 by FABSIX::T_TEAHAN >>>


| With respect, not everyone has a relationship with the LORD so he doesnt have 
| one with them. When he was on earth, in the physical, he still told truth to 
| those who did not have a relationship with him.

	He did because He knew what the Absolute Truth was. We, as humans,
can't possibly know what the Absolute Truth is because of our human nature. We
can only take a guess, and we can be wrong. There is your MAJOR difference. I
mean, you would no more put yourself up on the same level as Him in regards to
your human nature, right? So why would you do it with Truth?

	If you build a relationship first, then if you happen to make a
mistake, you have a greater chance of not breaking off what could lead to
someone coming to God. That is all I am saying. If someone uses that method, I
think the chances are greater. BUT, that is my opinion.

| but i am saying lets tell the truth, as our hearts are in the right place, 
| with love. 

	You know how many find it annoying when someone comes to their door to
preach? You know how that same person could hear the same message from their
pastor, and it would be ok? One has a relationship established and it seems to
work. The other doesn't, and they close the door. Same message, both are doing
it out of love. One message is rejected. Does this make sense?

| I'll explain Gods truth to one that needs it because i know, with conviction, 
| that Gods ways work and explain why, because i care for that soul. Some may 
| say im forcing my belief, etc. on someone. 

	Yes, many may take it that way. I think it really depends on how close
they are to you, for one, and how close they are to the Lord. If the latter is
strong, then the former does not need to be. 

| Id rather tell them truth out of love than sit there and yes them to death 
| and hear them telling me why things didnt go right because i know sin was the 
| root. 

	Hmmm.... are you saying that if they said that one night they had
unprotected sex and got the disease, you don't think that is admitting they did
something wrong? Or is it that you want to hear them actually say they sinned?
I'm a little confused by this.

| True, God doesnt force himself on anyone but there still is a hell and im 
| convicted to do what i can, as lead, to see their souls not to perish.

	Thomas, this is something else I am not getting. You have talked about
what God would do a lot in this note. Then you say God doesn't force himself
onto anyone, and insert a but...... doesn't one cancel the other? What am I
missing?



Glen

>	He did because He knew what the Absolute Truth was. We, as humans,
>can't possibly know what the Absolute Truth is because of our human nature. We
>can only take a guess, and we can be wrong. There is your MAJOR difference. I


  I see...so God left us here on earth, and left us to guess as to how one
  escapes Hell?  Kind of like a cracker jack box..there's a prize in it, but we
  don't know what it is til we get to it?  Maybe we get it right, maybe we get 
  it wrong?  

  Of course that is not the case.  The Bible is quite clear that there is 
  a plan for all of humanity to escape eternal punishment in Hell.   The Truth
  is right there in the Bible  "..Thy Word is Truth"  "I am the way and the
  Truth", "He (the Holy Spirit) will guide you into all Truth".  No, the issue
  is there are those who refuse to accept the truth.."There is a way that 
  seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death..


 Jim

    Glen,
    
    | With respect, not everyone has a relationship with the LORD so he
    doesnt have| one with them. When he was on earth, in the physical, he
    still told truth to| those who did not have a relationship with
    him......"Depart from me, i never knew you" Jesus said. Is this
    evidence there was a mutual relationship with the individual he said or
    will say this to?
          | Id rather tell them truth out of love than sit there and yes
    them to death | and hear them telling me why things didnt go right
    because i know sin was the | root....................
           To answer your question, there are plenty of people who have
    a foggy sense of truth. 
         Getting to this......        Thomas, this is something else I am
    not getting. You have talked about
    what God would do a lot in this note. Then you say God doesn't force
    himself
    onto anyone, and insert a but...... doesn't one cancel the other? What
    am I
    missing?.....
        God doesnt force himself on anyone, i had to do the accepting and i
    tell you i had to hear "the truth" from someone who "knows the truth"
    to "accept the truth" .
           Getting to your comment on it being impossible to know Gods
    "absolute" truth because we are human. I agree with Jim.
    
           in him,    thomas

    i didnt us a cooma here Glen, that threw ya, sorry......
    
       Some may say im forcing my belief,
        etc. on someone. Id rather tell them truth out of love than sit
    there
        and yes them to death and hear them telling me why things didnt go
        right{,} because i know sin was the root. 
        I meant "i know" as in me, thomas.
    

    "use a comma" .49
    
      sorry Glen, im tired. Can anyone tell me how to paste words without
    them spreading all over
    
       thomas

| <<< Note 871.47 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "We shall behold Him!" >>>


| I see...so God left us here on earth, and left us to guess as to how one
| escapes Hell?  

	Through Him is how we do that, Jim. But it does not mean that we all
follow every part of it every single time. That was what I was talking about.
Add in all of the different denominations, differences between denominations
that have the same name, and you can see that we don't follow one set way. 

| Of course that is not the case.  The Bible is quite clear that there is
| a plan for all of humanity to escape eternal punishment in Hell.   The Truth
| is right there in the Bible  "..Thy Word is Truth"  "I am the way and the
| Truth", "He (the Holy Spirit) will guide you into all Truth".  No, the issue
| is there are those who refuse to accept the truth.."There is a way that 
| seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death..

	Jim, you have seen in this very file that people can and do interprete
scripture to mean different things. And I am not including myself in this. So
that proves that the Truth can be present, but it does not mean that everyone
will see it the same as the other.

	I don't see why this is a hard concept. I have heard many say the same
things to those who they think are unbelievers. Why wouldn't it also apply to
those who are believers?


Glen

    The current issue of "World" Magizine has an article by Frederica
    Mathewes_Green on caring for people with aids.  I do not have the
    article.  Their address is P.O. Box 2330, Asheville,NC 28802 and phone
    number is 707,253-8063.

	Is World Magazine on the WWW? I'm at home and just have a vt340, so I
can't surf the net until tomorrow.


Glen

    No.
    And I can not find my copy either.

    I haven't gotten that issue yet.  My last "World" has Promise Keepers
    as a cover story.
    
    Mike

      Hi,
    
        Some thoughts...
    
        The main thing I keep thinking of are the woman at the well and
        the woman caught in adultery.  The woman at the well was shunned
        by the town because of her adultery as was the woman caught in
        adultery.  Jesus, amazingly, ministered personally to them both.
        The woman caught in adultery was shunned by the organized church.
        She was not shunned by Jesus.
    
        So, Jesus ministered personally to these people.  He also
        ministered to their needs.  I believe He also prayed for them.
        It seems that Jesus much more gave of His time than He did of His
        money.  1-1 ministry.
    
        James depicts a mirror that points out sin and does so progressiv- 
        ely.  To know what sin to point out at what time seems to me to 
        be quite a task - requiring inspiration straight from God.  If any-
        one seeks to point out the sin, I just hope the conviction is from
        God.  Showing a person a sin that the person is not ready to bear
        can shipwreck their faith.
    
        Glen, I couldn't let this go unnoticed.  I think your demeanor in
        this topic has been wonderful.
    
        I really appreciated a lot of the replies.
    
    							Tony
    

    Jesus was God and couldn't be defiled.  We have to minister by faith
    and hope God protects us as we minister.  We also have to use the
    common sense God has blessed us with.
    
    Mike

	This is going to sound weird....but I agree with what Mike just said.

    Hi everyone..
    
    I've spent all day unpacking in my new office.  I'm not really pleased
    with its complete function... but it is very nice.  
    
    I got some very bad news this weekend... my nephew, 26, is HIV+.  He's
    known for 2.5 years.  I can't believe that my sister didn't tell me. 
    She hasn't told anyone in the family.  I don't know why.  Perhaps she's
    ashamed or fearful that he'd be rejected, I'm not sure.  And she won't
    say why, just that she just felt she couldn't tell anybody.
    
    I told her that I was disappointed that she hid this from me, that I
    felt as though she's carrying this pain all alone and not allowing
    anyone to help carry the load.
    
    Anyway, the circumstances under which I found out really thew me for a
    loop.
    
    Basically, I was talking with him on the phone for the first time is
    several years and he said that he was going to get a house with Deena
    [Deena is his sister] as soon as he got out of the service in August.
    
    I was joking around with him and said, "Better not have a bunch of
    women in and out of that house with my girl."  He asked my why not, to
    which I responded, "Because of aids!"
    
    And he said he didn't need to worry about that as he was already HIV+.
    
    He seemed so non-chalant about it... Man, I cannot even begin to
    understand why my Sis didn't tell me.
    
    Anyway, he says that he doesn't know how he got it, as the two women
    with whom he had sex have both tested HIV - over the last 2 years.
    He also says that he has not had any blood transfusions or tatoos.  The
    only needle contact he had was in boot camp.
    
    Something's not right here, either he's lying about his promiscuity or 
    he's contracted the virus through casual contact.
    
    Anyway, it hurts to hear this news...  It's funny I hesitate to ask for
    prayer for him.  BTW, he's a Christian.  It's also interesting that
    this topic came up just before I got this news.  Praise God, I had the
    opinion I did.  Imagine, if I had been one who was into rejection and
    ostrasizing [sp] those who were HIV+/AIDS infected.  I'd have to
    confront my fears and bigotry.
    
    Though you may not know someone today, my dear friends/brethren, be
    assured you will soon.  I beg you to approach those with whom have this
    disease with love, care and wisdom.
    
    Affectionately,
    Nancy
    

	Nancy, what a great note. Thanks for sharing it with us.

	And it is understandable that one may not tell others of this. The fear
of being rejected is a big one. The ashamed part comes into play, but that
feeds off of the fear. In some cases they may have thought just the way you
described you aren't (bigot, etc). But it sounds as though you handled it quite
well. I can only imagine the shock you had when he told you the way he did.

	As far as how he got it....that is a mystery. Hopefully it is something
that can be solved. I know you can rule out casual contact.



Glen

    Thanks Nancy.
    
    Y'know Glen, I don't think it really matters, as such, how Nancy's
    nephew 'got it'. I think what is _really_ important, is (a) how he's
    learning to live with this, and (b) [more important in my eyes only
    because I know Nancy] how Nancy deals with this. So far, I think she's
    done well.
    
    Nancy-Sis, thank you for sharing this. My prayers are with you, your
    nephew, his sister (Deena) and your sister (their mother). I pray God's
    Blessing on each of you.
    
    H

| <<< Note 871.61 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "...but words can break my heart" >>>

| Y'know Glen, I don't think it really matters, as such, how Nancy's
| nephew 'got it'. I think what is _really_ important, is (a) how he's
| learning to live with this, and 

	Yes, you are right. 



Glen

| <<< Note 871.61 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "...but words can break my heart" >>>

| Y'know Glen, I don't think it really matters, as such, how Nancy's
| nephew 'got it'. I think what is _really_ important, is (a) how he's
| learning to live with this, and 

	You know, if I had a brain I would really be happy. I did initially
agree with you on this, but why I don't know. I had a specific reason for why
it was important to know who the person was. That reason is so they can be
notified so they do not spread the disease further. If someone doesn't think
they have it, they could very well give it to another without realizing it. 


Glen

    Ah,
    
    that's probably because we're coming at it from 'different' directions.
    
    Sure, I can see 'why' you would want to know who/how the virus was
    contracted, for the valid points you made - but after that, it really
    doesn't matter - the reaction of the person to their condition, and
    more importantly the reaction of those around them is important. How
    they contracted the virus is then secondary.
    
    I think we're in agreement.
    
    Scary, isn;t it ;') ?
    
    

      Hi,
    
        If it matters, i really appreciate(everyones)input in this
    conference, im learning.
    
         In Christ,  Thomas

| <<< Note 871.64 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "...but words can break my heart" >>>

| I think we're in agreement.

	We are in total agreement on this. :-)

| Scary, isn;t it ;') ?

	Nah...... amazing...but not scary. :-)



Glen

	Mike Heiser, I'm curious as to how this whole topic has affected your
views on this matter? In .25 you had mentioned some things that concerned me.
Can you add any inputs?


Glen

    Glen, going back to .57 & .58 in light of .25, there isn't much I can 
    add to the discussion.  We obviously disagree on what common sense is.  
    Many churches have ministries to "shut-ins."
    
    As far as the virus goes, most Christians owe it to themselves to hear
    the tape series: "AIDS: What You Haven't Been Told."  It is available
    from Koinonia House ministries (http://www.khouse.org).  
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 871.68 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| We obviously disagree on what common sense is. Many churches have ministries 
| to "shut-ins."

	Mike, are the shut ins there due to they can't get around, or are they
there because the church has made them shut ins?

| As far as the virus goes, most Christians owe it to themselves to hear the 
| tape series: "AIDS: What You Haven't Been Told." It is available from Koinonia
| House ministries (http://www.khouse.org).

	Mike, let's say that you are right for argument sake. Would Jesus stay
away from these people, or would He minister in person to them? Would He expect
us to minister in person, or stay away?


Glen

	We just got the numbers in from APW (AIDS Project Worcester) for
Digital. In 1994 there were 60 walkers with Digital. They raised $10,021.50. 
In 1995 there were only 10 walkers, and they raised only $1,629. 

	What seems evident in both the APW and AAC Walks is that the number of
people who actually walk are down. This is key, I believe. The APW Walk was
down 83% for walkers, while the AAC Walk was down 85%. What happened to the
walkers? 

	If you add in the money %'s, you get this result:


mf= matching funds


	1994 (with mf)   1994 (w/o mf)   1995	%drop with mf	%drop w/o mf

APW	 $10,021	   $6,700	 $1,629	     84%	    76%

AAC	 $38,000	  $25,000	 $4,300	     89%	    83%




	This is quite the drop in people, and in money. Can we make this year
any better? Not so much for Digital's sake, but for those who really need it. 
We need all the participants we can get. Digital still sponsors both Walks so 
that is a start. 

	What ways can we devise that might get some interest back into this?


Glen

    Glen, have you ascertained as to what organizations this money is given
    yet?

I'd still like to see the list of where the money goes.  I might guess that
this could be part of the problem.  If people perceive (correctly or
incorrectly) that a large part of the support is going to other groups they
DON'T support, they may choose not to support the walk at all.

If the organizers were able to proclaim that every dollar pledged to the walk
goes either directly to help people suffering from AIDS, or directly to
medical research to find a cure, I think it would get a lot more support.  If
some portion of the support goes to other organizations with various other
mixed agendas, a lot of people who might support it are turned away.

Paul

Nancy, we've got to stop meeting like this.....  :-) :-)

Paul

    Oh, But Paul its so much fun.

	It would surprise me that at one time, Digital employees would just
stop their support because they found out where the money went to. Especially
when it is on every pledge sheet. But for some, anyway, this could be the case. 

	I am going to an AIDS steering committee meeting tonight at the AIDS
Action Committee in Boston that I am attending. I hope to get more info on a
lot of things tonight. One of them being where the money goes.


Glen

    Whats on every pledge sheet?  Do you have a pledge sheet from which to
    read off whatever it is? :-)

	I should have a pledge sheet tonight. I know the posters don't come out
until the beginning of April, but I think the pledge sheets are out. IF they
are, I will have one, and I will enter it all in. 

	Oh, and anyone is free to come look at the pledge sheet to see if
everything has been entered. I'll probably have one hanging outside my office
anyway.



Glen

>	It would surprise me that at one time, Digital employees would just
>stop their support because they found out where the money went to. Especially
    
    Don't be.  Planned Parenthood is one of the big reasons United Way
    giving dropped off as well.
    
    Mike

	I am going to the AIDS Action Committee tomorrow night. I will be
picking up everything for the Digital sites. One of the things I will be
getting is the pledge sheets. I will either type who will be receiving the
money when I get home Thursday night, or I will try to get to it Friday, or the
weekend. Depending on what my time allows me to do. But before next monday, you
will know. 




Glen

Thanks, Glen.

Paul

	Ok, I got the Walk stuff right here in my room! But unfortunately, the
Walk info on the pledge sheet does not have who gets the money. I didn't notice
that until this morning, when I logged in from home to add it all in. When I
get into work, I will contact AIDS Action and get the info. Hopefully they will
fax it to me. What's strange is they even talked about telling people who will
be getting the money. Yet it isn't listed where it usually is. Sigh...

	So when I get it, so won't you!

>	So when I get it, so won't you!
                             ^^^^^

   Glen!!!!

    
    My thoughts exactly, Jim.
    
    Gosh, Glen, you bring back a lot of memories of
    Massachusetts (and so don't I 8*)
    
    Pam

 ARRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!

	Wot, were suppos to tawk propper englishe or sumptin? :-)

    re: -.1 
    
    not in 'Murika, that's fer sure ;')

    People often don't believe that I'm from Massachusetts because of the
    way I talk.  I just tell them that they taught proper English in the
    rural schools.
    
    Mike

	Just got off the phone with Greg Brown, from the AIDS Action Committee.
He is faxing me the info for where the money is going. I hope to have it posted
here today. There are 29 organizations who will be receiving money (if they
meet their goal of $2.75 million).



Glen

	Ok, I have the list. I can put in who is receiving money, what town
they are from, and a brief description about what the money is being used for.
But I can't do it for all of them because of the guidelines. Let me know what
you want to do.



Glen

I think it's probably best if you just offer to send the list to anyone who
is interested.

I for one would like a copy.

Paul

	Paul, good idea. Actually, what I will do is set it up in a sub
directory so people can copy it on their own. When I finish it, I'll post where
it is.


Glen

    Since it violates the guidelines, is it correct to assume that some of
    the funds go to what would be called questionable organizations? (ala
    United Way giving to Planned Parenthood)
    
    thanks,
    Mike

	Mmmmmm....no, it does not mean that. You can say those words. :-)

	Ok, if I got this right, you can view or copy it from:


                       user3$:[silva.public]aids_walk.


	Let me know if it works. I don't usually set protections, but I think I
got it right. (I did a, 

     set protection [.public]*.*/protection=(s=rwed,o=rwed,g=rwed,w=rwed)


Glen

Couldn't get it.  Try setting the protection on the directory file public.dir
in [silva] to be world read.  You really don't need to give anything other
than read privilege.

And it helps if you put the node in the specification so people can just
double-click on it and use it.

Paul

| <<< Note 871.95 by PAULKM::WEISS "I will sing of the mercies of the LORD forever..." >>>

| And it helps if you put the node in the specification so people can just
| double-click on it and use it.

	If you explain it, I'll try it. Off to try the other way to protect it.


Glen

	Ok, I did the following:


		set prot public.dir/prot=(w=r)

Still can't get it. SILVA.DIR may need world read also.

Paul

You could try putting it into the fal$server area on your system for a 
couple of days.  To do this just copy the file to bigq::*.*.  If you 
use the /log qualifier on your copy statement, it should show you that
it has copied the file to something like BIGQ::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FAL$SERVER].
This is automatically a public area and then you won't have to worry about
setting protections or making your own directories too accessible to the
outside world.

Actually, I just did a directory of bigq::*.* and found out that the name
of your fal$server directory is BIGQ::SYSTEM1$:[PUBLIC].

Leave it out there for some predetermined time, and then delete it.

Leslie

>                  <<< Note 871.94 by BIGQ::SILVA "Mr. Logo" >>>

    Glen,

    I think the problem is that the directory that contains the file is not
    world readable.  Do the following from your user3$:[silva] directory:

	set prot=w:r public.dir

    It looks like you have already made the file itself world readable, so
    the above command should open up the directory that contains the file.

    Ron

I think he already did that Ron.  Paul was probably correct about having
to give world read access all the way through the directory chains.  That's
why I think putting the file into the public area on BIGQ would be best.
That way Glen doesn't have to open all his directories to be world readable.

Leslie

    Actually, you only want SET PROT=(W:E) on SILVA.DIR.  This way people
    can't do wildcard searchs of your entire directories.  They will have
    to know the specific filename to get anything from you.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 871.100 by LILCPX::THELLEN "Ron Thellen, DTN 522-2952" >>>

| set prot=w:r public.dir

	Ok, I did this. Try it now.

	I was out today, and will be tomorrow. So hopefully we can get this
taken care of soon. 



Glen

    Glen,
    
    try the following...
    
    $ set default sys$login
    $ set file/prot=w:e [-]silva.dir
    $ set file/prot=w:re public.dir
    $ set file/prot=w:re [.public]*.*.*
    
    - step 1 makes sure you are in your 'home' directory
    - step 2 allows people to 'pass-through' your home directory
    - step 3 allows people to look into your public directory
    - step 4 allows people to read/copy the files in your public directory
    
    hth
    
    H

Still can't get it.  But I was able to do a dir of BIGQ::SYSTEM1:[PUBLIC]. 
If you copy the file there, and make sure it is world readable, then you
shouldn't have to go making your private directories world readable.

Paul

	I've got an idea.... anyone who sends me a request to see the list of
names of the poeple who the money from the AIDS Walk, I will gladly MAIL you a
copy. :-)



Glen

 Now, there's an idea!

You already know I want a copy....

Paul

Just to close the circle....

I won't be supporting the march.  Though many (most) of the organizations on
the support list are ones that I would be in support of, some other
organizations promote some activities or beliefs that I can not support.

There are other ways to work with this situation, however...

Paul

    Can you specify who you want donations to go to?

	You can choose an organization, and then send them money, time, what
have you. 


Glen

	Btw, I fully support Paul in what he is doing. He knows all things may
not interest him in supporting, so he does what he can. 


Glen

	Ok, for the recipient list, for the Walk route, how to get to Boston
Common for the Walk, insentive prizes, etc.... EVERYTHING! (even info on what
the AIDS Action Committee does)  The URL is


                           http://www.aac.org/walk/


	It takes about 1 minute to load, but after that it is pretty quick.


Glen

     -----------------------------++++++++++-----------------------------
     Pre-Registration for the Boston AIDS Walk in TAY1 and HLO2 on May 31
     -----------------------------++++++++++-----------------------------

	The Boston AIDS Walk is on Sunday, June 2nd. Digital is having a
	Pre-Registration for this Walk in TAY1 Cafe (11:00-12:30), and the 
	HLO2 Lobby (11:30-2:00) on May 31st.

	What is Pre-Registration? For those of you who are walking, it allows
	you to come in with your pledge sheets, and pledge dollars before the
	Walk itself. This will help keep you out of the long lines that are
	present the day of the Walk. Also, this will also help you take your
	pre-registration prizes early, which means you don't have to carry 
	them over the 10k Walk. 

	What this does for the AIDS Action Committee is allows them to get a
	head start on processing the paperwork. As the day after the Walk is
	quite a busy time for them. 

	What some site coordinators have said they would do is to gather up 
	your pledges from your site, and bring them to one of the
	pre-registration sites for you! For a list of the site coordinators
	for your facility, check out note 5.25 in the WECARE::AIDS_WALK
	notesfile, or the AIDS Walk homepage @:

   http://sdtad.zko.dec.com/pub/csgperf/group/wwlk/wwlk-aids-walk-info.html


	So if you aren't interested in standing in long lines the day of the
	Walk, stop by the pre-registration tables at TAY1 or HLO2!