Conference yukon::christian_v7

    In a nutshell, they were trying to work their way to heaven and
    salvation is only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  It is not of
    works lest any man will boast.  God hates pride and it is evident in
    what happened at Babel.
    
    >language, and the next, they can't understand each other? Will God
>    again do this when computers have bridged the language barrier?
    
    I don't think so because the application is different.  There are
    company already out there claiming to be working on technology to
    reverse the Tower of Babel factor.  I believe Lockheed is one of them. 
    It seems to fit in nicely with God's eschatological timetable very
    nicely.
    
    The price has been paid.  Most of us won't be here when it's a factor
    ;-)
    
    Mike

    On this...
    
    but from a slightly different direction ;')
    
    The use of technology.
    
    The primary technology for construction in those days would have been
    stone, timber and pitch / tar as a 'binder' or 'mortar'.
    
    Just a couple of chapters previously in Genesis, Noah was called on to
    apply technology to the 'problem at hand'. And God blesed the use of
    the technology.
    
    Now, just a few short chapters (and generations) later, mankind is
    applying the same technology for his own purposes. Not to be obedient
    to God, but to exhalt himself.
    
    There is a principle we can apply to ourselves as we each deal in some
    way with technology today.
    
    H

re .0

	Bob,

	I vaguely remember an artists impression of Nimrod stood on top of the
	tower firing an arrow into the heavens. The legend being that Nimrod,
 	a hunter of men, had turned his attention to the heavens.

	However, the bible account does give us an indication of why God did
	what he did. Before looking at the account we need to see what God's 
	original purpose was for Adam and his offspring. Genesis 1:28 NWT reads 
	"Further God blessed them and God said to them : 'Be fruitful and 
	become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection 
	the fish of and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living 
	creature that is moving upon the earth." Now as you know, Adam and Eve 
	rebelled against God and were removed from the garden of Eden. However,
 	God's purpose for Adam and his offspring to fill the earth had not 
	changed (compare Isaiah 45:18).

	Now we see in this account at Genesis 11, that shortly after the flood,
	mankind in general wanted to do their own thing in opposition to God's
	purpose for them. Verse 4 NWT reads "They now said : 'Come on! Let us
	build ourselves a city and also a tower with it's top in the heavens,
	and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be 
	scattered over all the earth.' They wanted to make a name for 
	themselves, bringing them glory by building this great tower. The 
	intention being that it would keep them together, for they feared being
        scattered over all the earth. However, they were seeking glory from 
        themselves rather than God (compare John 5:44). As we have learnt his 
 	purpose was for them to fill the earth.
	
	Verse 6 NWT tells us God's view on what they were seeking to achieve,
	"After that Jehovah said : 'Look! They are one people and there is one
	language for them all, and this is what they start to do. Why, now
	there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be 
	unattainable for them." There was nothing wrong in them being one
	people and having one language, the problem was that they were using
	their God given gifts to scheme against Jehovah. In accordance with this
	thought, Ecclesiastes 7:29 NWT reads "See! This only I have found, that
	the [true] God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out
	many plans." Before mankind could accomplish his plan, God thwarted 
	them by confusing their language and scattering them over the surface 
	of the earth. Thus they had to leave off from making this city and the 
	celebrated name for themselves, for they were unable to have any 
	meaningful communication amongst themselves.

	Differences in language has been a major barrier between peoples of 
	other races over the years. And no doubt is major contributing factor 
	that has led to conflict and distrust. However, the fault lies with
	sinful mankind and not God. There is a wonderful prohecy in Zephaniah
	3:9 NWT, indicating that God will draw people out of all nations and 
	bring them together in peace "For then I shall give peoples the
	change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the 
	name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder." God is
	bringing people together, whatever their language or race, and giving
	them a pure language that is his teachings so that they can serve him
	shoulder to shoulder in peace (compare Isaiah 2:2-4 & John 13:34,35).

	Hope this helps, btw please check in your own translation of the bible
	the scriptures quoted. 

	Phil.

    re: 867.4
    
    >They wanted to make a name for themselves, bringing them glory by
    >building this great tower. The intention being that it would keep them
    >together, for they feared being scattered over all the earth. However,
    >they were seeking glory from themselves rather than God
    
    >There is a wonderful prohecy in Zephaniah 3:9 NWT, indicating that God
    >will draw people out of all nations and bring them together in peace
    >"For then I shall give peoples the change to a pure language, in order
    >for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him
    >shoulder to shoulder." God is bringing people together, whatever their
    >language or race, and giving them a pure language that is his
    >teachings so that they can serve him shoulder to shoulder in peace
    >(compare Isaiah 2:2-4 & John 13:34,35).
    
    Titus 1:15
    To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and
    do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and
    consciences are corrupted.
    
    
    Jill

re .6

  Jill,

  That is a good scripture to quote especially if you include 
  verses 14 & 16. No doubt in the time of the building of the 
  tower of Babel, these persons thought they were doing the 
  right thing (an engineering feat) but had ignored God's will 
  for them.

  Today, man looks to the United Nations to bring peace security. 
  Many religious leaders have termed it as the last hope of peace 
  for all mankind. But by doing so they take no note of God's anointed
  one who is the only one who will bring about lasting peace and
  not man (Isaiah 9:6, Psalms 46:9).

  Isaiah 2:2-4 teaches that before lasting peace comes that persons 
  must stream to "the mountain of the house of Jehovah" (pure worship) 
  and be taught God's ways which include those of peace among brothers 
  and sisters whatever their race or language (compare 1 John 4:20-21).

  Phil.

	re.0

	If memory serves me correctly the specific issue at Babel was the
worship of Nimrod and his wife (Ishtar/Ashtar, I believe). This was a 
rebellion of great significance related to idolatry. 

	Throughout the Bible we see symptoms of the spiritual warfare taking
place. Satan and his followers are always inciting man to rebel against God.
Such was the case at Babel as well. In the end, God's wisdom is fully manifested
when His victory over His enemy is consummated through His creation, that is,
man. I know cuz I read the last two chapters of the book (Revelation 21 & 22). 

8*)

ace

>	If memory serves me correctly the specific issue at Babel was the
>worship of Nimrod and his wife (Ishtar/Ashtar, I believe). This was a 
>rebellion of great significance related to idolatry. 
    
    Since God likens idolatry to spiritual immorality, it makes me wonder
    why people still use the name "Easter" to celebrate Resurrection
    Sunday/Feast of Firstfruits.
    
    Mike

	re.-1

	Yes, Mike. You nailed that one!

	Ishtar, Ashtar, Easter.

	Take your pick.

ace

There are numerous Biblical reasons that Christians refer to the resurrection
as the Lord's Passover from death into life, and have done so since the time
when the Apostles were still alive.

1 John 3:14 -- We know we have passed from death unto life ...

John 5:24 -- ... is passed from death unto life ...

And yes, Christ is the Passover Victim, but the completion of the Paschal
mystery is in the Lord's Passover from Death into Life.

/john

    You lost me here.  Please explain Ishtar, Ashtar, Easter?
    What do these mean?  How are they related?  
    
    Jill2

The English word "Easter" is the name of an ancient northern European pagan
spring festival.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the middle eastern pagan goddess
called Astarte in West Semitic regions and Ishtar in Mesopotamia, but
certain people believe that it does.

Paganism was never a cohesive world-wide religion, and the northern
European festival was not named after a specific deity.

I do agree that it is unfortunate that English-speaking and German-speaking
Christians have such an unfortunate name for the Feast of the Resurrection,
but the relationship to Astarte/Ishtar is non-existent.

/john

Jill,

Easter's pagan roots as a celebration of the fertility goddess are well
understood by anyone who looks into it. Modern day christians tend to bury their
head in the sand and deny it because it has become so traditional in the church.
Because it is difficult to purge this leaven out, those who know better choose
to either deny a pagan connection or adopt metaphors to excuse it. Most are
probably not even aware of it.

A study of linguistics will show that there are a few base root langauges and
that all others are derived from these. This testifies to what happended at
Babel. I think there were probably 4 to 6 root languages. It also validates that
similarities in branch languages (those from a common root) is not unique to
German and  English speaking dialects. This occurs in all branch languages and
there are some words that crossover between root languages. 

Well, I'm not a linguist by any stretch of the imagination but this information
is not hard to find if someone really cares.

Ace

      Score me as one who believes that Passover FULLY encompasses the
      death and resurrection of Christ.  My reasons...
    
      Christ referred to the experience as THREE DAYS.  Three days
      scripturally, almost always refers to a LIVING TORMENT.  Paul's
      Damascus road exp., Abraham up Mount Moriah, Esther in the court
      of the king during the death decree, Joseph's brothers, the rains
      that fell in the book of Ezra and on and on.
    
      Jesus gives a 'hard saying' in John 6.  He says we must drink His
      blood and eat His body.  He then goes on to say that His blood 
      and flesh give life (verse 53).  In verse 63, he says His word
      and the Spirit are life, i.e. in spirit flesh/blood = revelation.
    
      God's word is spirit and there is a death and resurrection that do
      not refer to physical death and resurrection.  Romans 7 refers to
      the death spoken of in Romans 6:23, i.e. "the wages of sin is death."
      In Romans 7, it is seen that this is a death that Paul is dying.
    
      I believe the physical death and resurrection are *schoolmasters*
      pointing to a spiritual death and resurrection.  The death of Christ
      was experiencing the weight of sin pressing upon His heart.  The
      resurrection of Christ was His overcoming the temptation to despair
      by faith and holding onto His Father.  The blood of Christ is the
      revelation of this awesome self-sacrificing love.  The blood is the
      word/revelation (John 6:53,63).
    
      This all relates to Hebrews 10:1-4.  We still look at shadow.  We
      look at physical death, physical blood, a physical resurrection.
      There is motivating power in this revelation - but not enough to
      perfect the conscience from sin (see Heb. 10:1-4).  There is much
      more motivating revelation when one begins to see very image and not
      the shadow which points to the very image.  When one begins to see
      the agony of heart which Jesus endured WHILE ALIVE and when one sees
      the POWER of His Father's love which perfected Jesus faith and
      enabled Jesus to not be defeated, one is beginning to see the reve-
      lation that is so motivating that it can perfectly cleanse the
      conscience from any remembrance of sin.
    
      From the perspective which God longs for us to have ("My word is 
      Spirit"/very image and not shadow) both death and resurrection took
      place before the physical death of Christ.  Thus Passover is fully
      encompassing the death and resurrection of Christ as a type.
    
      It all depends upon whether we look to shadow or to very image.
    
    							Tony
    

    Re: .17
    
    Tony I followed you down to the last paragraph where you lost me.
    
          From the perspective which God longs for us to have ("My word is 
          Spirit"/very image and not shadow) both death and resurrection took
          place before the physical death of Christ.  Thus Passover is fully
          encompassing the death and resurrection of Christ as a type.
        
          It all depends upon whether we look to shadow or to very image.
    
    
    Explain this better please.
    
    
    Jill
    

    >Only English and German-speaking people do this.
    
    I don't ;-)

    Mike, thats really rather discouraging.  
    
    Thanks
    Jill  

And just because pagans celebrated the rising sun, why should Christians
not celebrate the biblical truth of the rising of Christ, "the Sun of
Righteousness."

/john

And just because pagans used processions in their pagan worship, why should
Christians not use processions to symbolize the Lord's commandment to "go
forth" and to bring him into the world.

/john

    Come out and be ye separate.  Be holy for the Lord your God is holy.
    
    Compromising the worship of God with paganism is spiritual immorality and 
    was the downfall of Pergamos (which means "marriage" as in married to the 
    world), Thyatira (which means "continual sacrifice"), and Israel during
    several different periods of its history.
    
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
    If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth
 thee a sign or a wonder,
 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee,
 saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us
 serve them;
 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of
 dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD
 your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    
    Matthew 6:7
    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they
    think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

re: last few

	John,

The main issue is "mixture". A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Bring something worldly into the church and after a while in grows, infiltrates
and eventually corrupts the church. The Lord has called the church to be holy,
separated, and without blemish. Applying holy facts to pagan fables opens the
door for Satan to come in to corrupt the church's standing before Him, ruin her
testimony before man, and weaken her God given mission of destroying His enemy.

May His overcomers wake up!

ace

>Applying holy facts to pagan fables opens the door for Satan to come in
>to corrupt the church's standing before Him, ...

Baloney.

Giving up holy truth because there are similar pagan fables lets
Satan have all the good stuff.

"Life is sacred"  (oops.  pagans believe that.  we can't.)

"The Sun of Righteousness will spread like lightening from east to west".
(ooops.  Pagans worship the sun.  We have to ignore what Jesus said.)

/john

    This is a very interesting topic.  I've often thought of it.  Daryl
    Gleason is here on business and last Saturday we went to Fisherman's
    Wharf together in San Francisco.
    
    One of the things that reached out and grabbed me by the heart is that
    there are now every 20 feet a psychic with her crystals, cards and palm
    readings taking place.  15 yrs ago there'd have been street performers. 
    What a sad day it is when a major city in the U.S. appears as a
    godless, hedonistic society.  
    
    As I saw this, I asked myself where are the prophets of God?  Have they
    really ceased at Christ's death?  Are they in existence today?  Where
    are the missionaries for San Francisco?
    
    Are they in churches versus on the street proclaiming the gospel of
    Christ?
    
    I told Daryl that I had the most horrible urge to grab a woman who was
    having her palm read and tell her that this person could never assure
    her of the joy her soul is being robbed of.
    
    It was spiritually painful to watch.
    
    Where are the prophets of God?  Where are the missionaries?  Where are
    the Christians proclaiming the gospel on the mountaintop?
    
    I am ashamed of myself for being stuck in this way of living and not
    living life more in abundance of Christ.
    
    I actually find myself agreeing John... Just because Satan perverts a
    God-given belief doesn't mean we should abandon ours for fear of
    appearing worldly.  On the contrary, we should proclaim what is real
    and full of Truth so that the counterfeit can be seen for what it is.
    
    The reason this country is in the spiritual darkness it is in today is
    because of God's people.  If God's people were to humble themselves and
    pray AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS... God would heal this land.
    

    I never advocated the notion of forgetting the Great Commission.  I'm
    advocating representing our Savior in a manner that God's Word calls
    for.  Misrepresenting God is what kept Moses out of the promised land. 
    I think God takes this seriously.
    
    Look at what a person will say to you if they see you stumble or fall
    in your walk with God.  The world *KNOWS* how Christians should behave
    because of the law of God written in the heart of every man.  Pagans
    copying us is one thing.  Christians copying pagans ruins our
    testimony.  Easter/Ishtar/Astarte *IS NOT* a Godly holiday. 
    Resurrection Sunday/Feast of Firstfruits *IS*!
    
    Mike

      I think a good study of how Christians slowly replaced 7th day
      worship with 1st day worship would be very much like the Easter
      reply Mike introduced.  There is simply no command to 'honor'
      *Sun*day, and yet...
    
      (Not that I desire to rathole this, but it is every bit as solid
      an example as Easter is, imo.)
    
      Jill,
    
      What I meant was, if you look to shadow, you look to physical
      death, physical resurrection, and physical blood.  The physical
      resurrection took place *after* Passover and thus Passover is
      not as good a type.  However, if you look to very image death,
      resurrection, and blood, Passover becomes a more fitting type.
      
      Thats all I meant.
    
    						Tony

re.27
>Giving up holy truth because there are similar pagan fables lets
>Satan have all the good stuff.

Better stick with what the Bible says. Then you (and I) will, by God's mercy,
see the holy truth. The "good stuff" is found in the book. 

The resurrection of Christ should be celebrated and enjoyed by His lovers 
every morning, meeting Him, as Mary did at the empty tomb, for a fresh 
personal encounter. Then His presence will be real, living, and 
death-swallowing to us throughout the day. Such a relationship will 
spontaneously cause us to pursue the One who is Resurrection. He, as
Resurrection, then becomes our reality. 

Now that is something to celebrate.

Regards,
Ace

    Amen.
    
    Celebrate the resurrection aways.  Be constantly His.  Now thats truth.
    
    
    Jill

    Tony -
    
    Oh yea, sorry its been so long since we did this study.  How could I
    ever have forgotten.  Of course.  Romans 7:9 and His death and
    resurrection at a Spiritual level.  Forgive me its been a long
    week already :-) .
    
    Jill