Conference yukon::christian_v7

This is one of those questions which simply defies a clean answer.  There are
numerous scriptures which clearly seem to support each position.  Some people
argue passionately for one side, some for the other side.  To do this, I
think that both sides wind up having to take some amount of liberties with
the scriptures that seem to speak against their position.

I tend to be sort of a-doctrinal.  It's not that I don't think doctrine is
important, because I do.  But I don't think right doctrine (in terms of
intellectual understanding) has ANYTHING to do with salvation.  What it does
to us, how it effect us and who we BECOME as a result of it, is what I'm much
more concerned with.

Viewed from that aspect, it makes perfect sense to me that God gave clear
scriptural support for both sides of this concept.  Consider:

If it was clearly "Once saved, always saved," then once a person has accepted
the Lord and 'been saved,' there's a real temptation to complacency.  "Why
bother to change my actions or choices or lifestyle?," the reasoning goes, "I
can't lose my salvation anyway, so I can just live out this lifetime however
I want, and I'll still spend eternity in heaven."  God doesn't want us living
in this sort of complacency, so He won't give us a clear message of "Once
saved, always saved."

On the other hand, if salvation was clearly temporary, and we were in
constant danger of losing it, we'd live in constant fear and would have no
sense of security.  It would be made even worse by the addition of Heb 6:4-6,
which says that once we fall away we can't regain salvation.  God doesn't
want our entire christian walk to be one of walking on eggshells, so He won't
give us a clear message of 'temporary salvation.'

What God wants for us is to rest secure in the knowledge that He has saved
us, and at the same time take very seriously the need to be conformed into
His likeness and to walk closely with Him.  The best way for Him to do this
would be to tell us both that those who are destined for salvation can't ever
be lost, and to tell us that we CAN be lost, and if we are we can't come back.

Gee, what do you know, that's exactly what He did.... :-)

Paul

    Thomas, try reading replies 600.3-.6 and 600.12-.15.  Both are
    scholarly and written by some of the more respected men in the
    evangelical world.
    
    Mike

 
Barry, I recall reading your comments on 1John a while back which convinced me
 also of OSAS.




 Jim

    Salvation. God wants us to repent and turn away from our sins even
    after we accept Christ,why? Because unconfessed sin can do what to us?
    effect our salvation? Yes. Say it is my intention, in the beginning, to
    accept Christ and be saved. Say, after i accept the Lord, i sin, which
    i will, but never ever ever confess it (which i have). Say until my
    physical death, i have killed, lied, stolen, etc. and in 40 years after
    accepting Christ ive never repented. Accepting Christ involves
    following him and confessing sin and repenting. I am not locked into
    salvation after accepting Christ. I MUST follow him, its an ongoing
    relationship and salvation is a growing process. Would not the LORD say
    at my physical death "the work has been done" not work as in deeds that
    follows faith but Gods work complete in my life by way of salvation.
            I will re-read 1 john but im sure the i will find that one
    must follow Jesus and following him is a commandment of repentence for
    salvation. I understand Gods amazing grace but that grace is upon the  
    believer.Gods grace is upon the one who follows Jesus and that, once
    again, involves repentance. We are never locked into salvation when we
    drift away from God and never return. If thats the case the unbeliever
    doesnt have to believe and the believer doesnt have to repent and sin
    will not stand in our way of salvation.  
                                             thomas
    

    want to clarify something in my last statement. i said Gods grace is
    upon the believer" not leaving out the fact that Jesus came for all and
    shed his blood for the unbeliever. i meant the grace is upon the
    believer, salvation. 
    

    mike
    
      i am finding notesfile 600 + informative.  as written.".And, many
    Scriptures teach that a true believer is safe and secure in Christ,
    that salvation doesn't depend on our ability to keep ourselves, but on
    God's
    ability to keep us (1 John 5:11-13; John 10:28; Romans 5:1, 8:1).  The
    only
    condition for salvation is faith in Christ (John 3:16, Acts 16:31;
    Romans 10:9).
    On the other hand, the Bible teaches us that we must abide in Christ
    (John 15;
    Luke 13:14; Colossians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter
    1:10) to
    persevere in salvation"

    mike,
    
       my previous topic involved church seeking. after reading notesfile
    600 + id love to investigate a calvary chapel fellowship church nearest
    to me. i live near boston, mass. i noticed the old listing you had back
    in '94 for c c's in massachusetts do you have an updated one with all
    listings in mass? if so can you give me it?   thanks,  thomas

      Hi,
    
        I am not a believer in OSAS.  I also don't have the willingness
        to enter into a big scriptural discussion on this, so I just want
        to expound on something Barry said.
    
        Barry you mentioned that there is nothing we can do to gain or
        to lose the free gift of salvation.  I agree, but let me pose 
        a rough analogy.
    
        Lets say I am attempting to walk accross a desert.  Someone gives
        me a car filled with fresh water and food.  If I get in that car,
        I will surely make it accross that desert.
    
        I refuse to partake of the car.  Is it still mine?  Yes.  The 
        papers are all here.  Its mine.  Its been given to me.  However,
        I don't get in and drive.  Eventually, in my attempt to make it
        accross the desert, I die.
    
        Again, is the car mine?  Yeah, sure, BUT its usefulness for me is
        ineffective in my life for I refused to appropriate its benefits.
    
        You seemed to infer that something given necessitates something
        received and appropriated in the life.  At the very least, this
        is not universally true (true in any case) as it is not true with
        the above car analogy.
    
        Someone may give me something, but this DOES NOT imply that I 
        will necessarily appropriate the benefits of that which is given - 
        all the while it is rightfully mine.
    
        Now, what of the person who begins to drive that car?  Can he 
        choose to get out of the car?  If he chooses to get out of the
        car, does the car still belong to him?  Of course it would still
        belong to him, but again, would a person choose to get out?
    
        I believe one can choose to leave Christ after beginning to 
        appropriate Him.  I believe so largely on the basis of Lucifer.
        He saw so much of the grace of God.  He surely must have benefited
        from that which he beheld.  He had a relationship with God.  He
        was driving that car!  But, he chose to get out.
    
        Now some might say "Thats Lucifer and not us" to which my reply
        is, "Is God prejudiced?"  Did He create the order of angels with
        some flaw which people do not have?  I take no pleasure in the
        fact that Lucifer could withdraw after driving the car.  But, he
        did.
    
        The same grace that saves is the same grace that cleanses.  (I 
        actually believe salvation IS the cleansing work of Christ.)
        Our character is proportional to the grace we have beheld.  If
        we are extremely lukewarm, we have beheld, imo, a whole lot less
        grace than Lucifer did.  And that is the grace that saves.  And
        somehow Lucifer got out of the car.  And I don't believe God is
        prejudiced against angels.
    
        A gift given is not a gift received.  That this is true is 
        evident in that God gave His Son to the world and yet not all 
        the world will be saved.
    
    							Tony

    I agree with .9. BTW, not to change the subject, my son asked me to
    read to him about Lucifer being thrown from Heaven and I drew a blank.
    Could someone point to me where to find this.
    
    Terri

    I, too, have enjoyed teaching/experiencing 1 John and wholeheartedly
    agree with Barry's suggestion of the assurance presented therein.
    1 John is my favorite book, pithy, personal and powerful!
    
    Two "rules-of-thumb" I've suggested to people pondering these things:
    
     1) You haven't committed the unpardonable sin if you're worrying about
        it.
    
     2) You haven't lost your salvation if you're worrying about it.
    
    Our Enemy would have us discouraged and depressed, attacking the hope
    that purifies us.  Of course, the other tack is to blind us to sin,
    ours in particular.  The Holy Spirit will not allow us to ignore
    sin--that's the guarantee.  "Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and
    He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit." (1Jo.4:13, KJV)
    
    A practical way I've found to "keep the faith" is to take encouragement
    when I become acutely aware of my failures and shortcomings--struggling
    with sin is good because that means the Holy Spirit's at work in my
    heart.  In other words, rather than getting discouraged with how bad I
    am, I just agree with God that I am a sinner, confess the sin as He
    reveals it and move on to the next area.  When I'm feeling particularly
    bad and feel trapped, I pray for others:  "And the Lord turned the
    captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends..." (Job 42:10a, KJV)
    This I believe is resurrection power, transforming old to new, turning
    evil to good.  "...greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the
    world." (1Jo.4:4b, personalized from KJV)
    
    What we're really talking about here is personal:  Can I lose my
    salvation?  Trying to answer that question academically, particularly
    for someone else, is inappropriate.  As for me "The Spirit bears
    witness with my spirit, that I am a child of God: And if a child, then
    heir; heir of God, and joint-heir with Christ; if so be that I suffer
    with Him, that we may be also glorified together." (Ro.8:16&17,
    personalized from KJV).
    
    What can we say about others?  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of
    Christ, he is none of His." (Ro.8:9b, KJV)
    
    /Wayne

    RE: .10
    
    Isaiah 14:12-21 and Luke 10:18-20

 re .11


 AMEN, Wayne!




 Jim

>    Salvation. God wants us to repent and turn away from our sins even
>    after we accept Christ,why? 
    
    Because we have been saved unto good works, not iniquity.
    
    >Because unconfessed sin can do what to us?
    
    Diminish our relationship with our Lord.
    
    >effect our salvation? Yes. 
    
    No.
    
    >Say it is my intention, in the beginning, to
    >accept Christ and be saved. Say, after i accept the Lord, i sin, which
    >i will, but never ever ever confess it (which i have). Say until my
    >physical death, i have killed, lied, stolen, etc. and in 40 years after
    >accepting Christ ive never repented. 
    
    You're confused here, as are many Christians, particularly Arminians. 
    It appears you accept the contradiction that a born-again Christian 
    can kill, lie, steal, etc. It doesn't happen.
    
    >Accepting Christ involves
    >following him and confessing sin and repenting. I am not locked into
    >salvation after accepting Christ. 
    
    This is the Arminian view, isn't it?  You emphasize your "acceptance"
    of Christ at the expense of God's grace.  You don't seem to realize
    that without God's grace you would have never had faith in the first
    place.  If you believe that the force of your will brought you to the new
    birth it is no surprise that you believe the force of your will shall
    preserve your salvation.
    
    >I MUST follow him, its an ongoing
    >relationship and salvation is a growing process. 
    
    Your salvation is not a growing process but your sanctification is and
    even that is God's initiative.
    
    >must follow Jesus and following him is a commandment of repentence for
    >salvation. I understand Gods amazing grace but that grace is upon the  
    >believer.Gods grace is upon the one who follows Jesus and that, once
    >again, involves repentance. We are never locked into salvation when we
    >drift away from God and never return. 
    
    The Bible says that the believer never drifts away from God in the sense
    of being out of His reach.  Also, the Bible teaches that he who leaves
    the fold was never a sheep in the first place.
    
    >If thats the case the unbeliever
    >doesnt have to believe and the believer doesnt have to repent and sin
    >will not stand in our way of salvation.  
    >                                         thomas
    
    I don't believe this follows necessarily from what you said earlier. 
    Sin will not stand in the way of our salvation.  Those who believe that
    it is possible to cease sinning this side of heaven don't know their
    Bible well enough on the subject, don't know themselves well enough,
    take a light view of sin, and are pitiable concerning the obvious lack
    of understanding of the relationship which has been established by God
    on his/her behalf.
    
    jeff
    

Chapter XVII

Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called,
and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall
away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein
to the end, and be eternally saved.1

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free
will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing
from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;2 upon the
efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,3 the
abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,4 and the
nature of the covenant of grace:5 from all which arises also the
certainty and infallibility thereof.6

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and
of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and
the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous
sins;7 and, for a time, continue therein:8 whereby they incur God's
displeasure,9 and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to be deprived of
some measure of their graces and comforts,11 have their hearts
hardened,12 and their consciences wounded;13 hurt and scandalize
others,14 and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.15

_______________________________
1 PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that
he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the
rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling
and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal
life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which
gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able
to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 1JO 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he
is born of God. 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of
God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed
in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith,
even the salvation of your souls.
2 2TI 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred,
saying that the resurrection is past already; and
overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the
foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The
Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one
that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
JER 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me,
saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting
love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
3 HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for
ever them that are sanctified. 20 Now the God of
peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord
Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the
blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect
in every good work to do his will, working in you that
which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus
Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. HEB
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by
his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if
the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an
heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the
purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself without spot to God, purge your
conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new
testament, that by means of death, for the redemption
of the transgressions that were under the first
testament, they which are called might receive the
promise of eternal inheritance. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay
any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that
justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ
that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is
even at the right hand of God, who also maketh
intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the
love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or
persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or
sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed
all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the
slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more
than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am
persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,
nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any
other creature, shall be able to separate us from the
love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. JOH
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are
in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep
through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,
that they may be one, as we are. 24 Father, I will
that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me
where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou
hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the
foundation of the world. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed
for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art
converted, strengthen thy brethren. HEB 7:25 Wherefore
he is able also to save them to the uttermost that
come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make
intercession for them.
4 JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he
shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide
with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom
the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth
with you, and shall be in you. 1JO 2:27 But the
anointing which ye have received of him abideth in
you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as
the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is
truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you,
ye shall abide in him. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of
God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
5 JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant
with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do
them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,
that they shall not depart from me.
6 JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck
them out of my hand. 2TH 3:3 But the Lord is faithful,
who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1JO
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have
continued with us: but they went out, that they might
be made manifest that they were not all of us.
7 MAT 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying,
I know not what thou sayest. 72 And again he denied
with an oath, I do not know the man. 74 Then began he
to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And
immediately the cock crew.
8 PSA 51 (the title) To the chief muscian, A psalm
of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after
he had gone in to Bathsheba. 51:14 Deliver me from
bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and
my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
9 ISA 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and
worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy
ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in
those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 7 And
there is none that calleth upon thy name, that
stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou
hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us,
because of our iniquities. 9 Be not wroth very sore, O
Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see,
we beseech thee, we are all thy people. 2SA 11:27 And
when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her
to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a
son. But the thing that David had done displeased the
Lord.
10 EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that
the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right
spirit within me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. REV 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because
thou hast left thy first love. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my
heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that
knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my
dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew,
and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put
off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my
feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his
hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved
for him. 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had
withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when
he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I
called him, but he gave me no answer.
12 ISA 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err
from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?
Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine
inheritance. MAR 6:52 For they considered not the
miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they
sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief
and hardness of heart, because they believed not them
which had seen him after he was risen.
13 PSA 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old
through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and
night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is
turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 51:8 Make me
to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou
hast broken may rejoice.
14 2SA 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast
given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to
blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall
surely die.
15 PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not
my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their
transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with
stripes. 1CO 11:32 But when we are judged, we are
chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned
with the world.

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Chapter XVIII

Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly
deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of
being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation1 (which hope of
theirs shall perish):2 yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus,
and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good
conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that
they are in the state of grace,3 and may rejoice in the hope of the
glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.4

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable
persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;5 but an infallible
assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of
salvation,6 the inward evidence of those graces unto which these
promises are made,7 the testimony of the Spirit of adoption
witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,8 which
Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to
the day of redemption.9

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of
faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with
many difficulties, before he be partaker of it:10 yet, being enabled
by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God,
he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of
ordinary means, attain thereunto.11 And therefore it is the duty of
every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election
sure,12 that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in
the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength
and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,13 the proper fruits of
this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.14

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers
ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in
preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the
conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement
temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and
suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no
light:15 yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of
God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that
sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the
operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be
revived;16 and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported
from utter despair.17

_______________________________
1 JOB 8:13 So are the paths of all that forget God;
and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: 14 Whose hope
shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider's
web. MIC 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and
the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets
thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the
Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us? none evil can
come upon us. DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he
heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself
in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I
walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add
drunkenness to thirst. JOH 8:41 Ye do the deeds of
your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of
fornication; we have one Father, even God.
2 MAT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord,
Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy
name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
3 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments. 3:14 We know that we have
passed from death unto life, because we love the
brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in
death. 18 My little children, let us not love in word,
neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And
hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall
assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart
condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him,
and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in
us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1JO 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on
the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye
have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name
of the Son of God.
4 ROM 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into
this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of
the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed;
because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
5 HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do
shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope
unto the end. 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of
the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth
into that within the veil.
6 HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to
shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his
counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two
immutable things, in which it was impossible for God
to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have
fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before
us.
7 2PE 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great
and precious promises: that by these ye might be
partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the
corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And
beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith
virtue; and to virtue knowledge. 10 Wherefore the
rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling
and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered
unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of
our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1JO 2:3 And hereby
we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments. 3:14 We know that we have passed from
death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that
loveth not his brother abideth in death. 2CO 1:12 For
our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our
conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we
have had our conversation in the world, and more
abundantly to you-ward.
8 ROM 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of
bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit
of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The
Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we
are the children of God.
9 EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed
with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye
are sealed unto the day of redemption. 2CO 1:21 Now he
which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath
anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and
given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
10 1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye
may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God. ISA 1:10 Hear
the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear
unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. MAR
9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried
out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou
mine unbelief. (see PSA 88; PSA 77)
11 1CO 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of
the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we
might know the things that are freely given to us of
God. 1JO 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and
he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. HEB
6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the
same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the
end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them
who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
EPH 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by
faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the
breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to
know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that
ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
12 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give
diligence to make your calling and election sure: for
if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
13 ROM 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we
have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of
God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love
of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost
which is given unto us. 14:17 For the kingdom of God
is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace,
and joy in the Holy Ghost. 15:13 Now the God of hope
fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye
may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy
Ghost. EPH 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all
spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
without blame before him in love. PSA 4:6 There be
many that say, Who will shew us any good? Lord, lift
thou up the light of thy countenance upon us. 7 Thou
hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time
that their corn and their wine increased. 119:32 I
will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt
enlarge my heart.
14 1JO 2:1 My little children, these things write I
unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have
an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the
whole world. ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we
continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein? TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth
salvation hath appeared to all men. 12 Teaching us,
that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present
world. 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might
redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a
peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2CO 7:1 Having
therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us
cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and
spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. ROM
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them
which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
flesh, but after the Spirit. 12 Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the
flesh. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we
know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that
hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is
pure. PSA 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee,
that thou mayest be feared. 1JO 1:6 If we say that we
have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we
lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the
light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one
with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.
15 SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the
voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me,
my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head
is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the
night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it
on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 6
I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn
himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I
sought him, but I could not find him; I called him,
but he gave me no answer. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy
and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken
may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 14
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my
salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy
righteousness. EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit
of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and
anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away
from you, with all malice. PSA 77:1 I cried unto God
with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he
gave ear unto me. 2 In the day of my trouble I sought
the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my
soul refused to be comforted. 3 I remembered God, and
was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was
overwhelmed. Selah. 4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I
am so troubled that I cannot speak. 5 I have
considered the days of old, the years of ancient
times. 6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I
commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made
diligent search. 7 Will the Lord cast off for ever?
and will he be favourable no more? 8 Is his mercy
clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for
evermore? 9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he
in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah. 10 And I
said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the
years of the right hand of the most High. MAT 26:69
Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came
unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of
Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I
know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out
into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto
them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus
of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do
not know the man. PSA 31:22 For I said in my haste, I
am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou
heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried
unto thee. (PSA 88 throughout) ISA 50:10 Who is among
you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of
his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no
light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay
upon his God.
16 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit
sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed
for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art
converted, strengthen thy brethren. JOB 13:15 Though
he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will
maintain mine own ways before him. PSA 73:15 If I say,
I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the
generation of thy children. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear
joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast
broken may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. ISA
50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that
obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in
darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name
of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
17 MIC 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I
will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will
hear me. 8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when
I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the
Lord shall be a light unto me. 9 I will bear the
indignation of the Lord, because I have sinned against
him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for
me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall
behold his righteousness. JER 32:40 And I will make an
everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn
away from them, to do them good; but I will put my
fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from
me. ISA 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a
little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but
with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the
waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the
waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so
have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor
rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and
the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart
from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be
removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. PSA
22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why
art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of
my roaring? (PSA 88 throughout)

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re 10

Revelation 12:7-12

Phil.

    	My apologies for notes which surpass the guidelines.  I would like
    to recommend that the guideline have exceptions for the great creeds or
    any other text which is best presented preserved as one piece, one
    note.
    
    thanks!
    jeff

	"Let he who is without sin first cast a stone..."

        1. Which of us is without sin today?

        2. How much sin must one commit to lose his salvation?

	3. Which of us can fall on his face before an almighty, just, and
	Holy God tonight, and not ask for His mercy to forgive us for the
	damage we have done to others, to ourselves, and to His Holy Name?

	Peace to all,
		TonyC
		

    I once believed as an Arminian, but studying 1 John has also convinced me 
    that "true believers" cannot lose their salvation.  I do not blanketly 
    support OSAS as the Bible has passages that make it clear that some will 
    depart from the faith.
    
    Mike

    I think for us to even discuss this is to say that we can know the
    hearts of man and is motivated out of pride.  God has made it clear that
    many will say and do things in His name and he will say he never knew
    them.  This says to me that as men we can be fooled by those who claim
    to know Christ and perform many wonders and miracles by invoking
    the name of Christ but go straight to hell at judgement day.
    
    Be careful my brothers and sisters to look inward alone before God and
    only ask for Him to reveal your heart to you and keep that one in tact. 
    Our jobs as Christians is to present he gospel, not judge the hearts of
    man.  If we are truly seeking the Lord, then we will be ever before him
    making sure our hearts have His gospel.
    
    Be at peace, Brothers and Sisters, and know that He is Lord of all
    things.
    
    In Christ's love,
    Nancy
    

      I don't agree with the following:
    
      "I think for us to even discuss this is to say that we can know
       the hearts of man and is motivated out of pride."
    
      I don't think its right for people to declare what another's heart-
      motive is; especially in such general terms, i.e. whoever discusses
      this has the heart-motive of pride.
    
      I don't believe I have professed to know the heart of anyone.  I
      don't believe I have professed that any one person in particular
      is on the road to hell or the street to heaven.
    
      I just volunteered my personal understanding based on what the
      scriptures have told me personally.  How does one derive motive
      from that?
    
      Esau sold his birthright.  It was his!!!
    
      A quick by the way.  Mike, your reply sounds like a contradiction.
      You suggest that anyone with true faith will not fall away, but then
      speak of people falling away.  There is no greater descent than
      perfect unbelief.  Such people have no falling away to do.
    
    							Tony

    
    Oh, I beg to differ, Nancy.  The subject of God's salvation is of supreme
    importance, it is the gospel.  
    
    jeff

 How did Nancy say otherwise?

>      A quick by the way.  Mike, your reply sounds like a contradiction.
>      You suggest that anyone with true faith will not fall away, but then
>      speak of people falling away.  There is no greater descent than
>      perfect unbelief.  Such people have no falling away to do.
    
    Tony, I used to think so too.  Look at it his way, what is the
    difference between a Calvinist who believes they can't lose their
    salvation and a true believer who abides in Christ believing they can't
    lose their salvation?
    
    How many true believers are there in Calvinist denominations?  How many
    true believers are there in Arminius denominations who are needlessly
    fretting over their salvation while abiding in Christ?  How many people
    are in Calvinist denominations who are making a mockery of God's grace?
    
    A Calvinist told me once that if he died in a prostitute's arms he
    would still go to heaven.  I don't consider him a true believer.
    
    Mike

    Nancy didn't... but oftimes when one is confronted the struggle begins.
    
    Tony, my note was only to "provoke" an inward look towards one's own
    heart whether it be in your writing here or in an attitude that perhaps
    is ungodly and prideful.
    
    If you inspect your heart and find my statement to be not be true to
    you, Amen, at least the inspection was made.
    
    Nancy

    Uhm, Jeff, the subject here isn't how one is saved, it seems that most
    of us agree on that, but whether or not God can keep it.
    
    I beg to differ in that the real question is whether salvation was real
    for those who would murder, steal, etc.
    
    I think the case for osas or loss of salvation can be strong on both
    sides.  However, I believe God wants us to focus on our heart's status
    today and everyday not on whether he can keep what we promise to him.
    
    If our attitudes are to offer our heart's to the Lord daily [not for
    salvation] but for introspection, what kind of Christians would be
    produced?  Could we fulfill the prophecy and promise that if God
    peoples humble themselves and pray that our nation could be saved?
    
    

RE: .5 & .14

I want to affirm Jeff's position, with the following clarification:

|    You're confused here, as are many Christians, particularly Arminians. 
|    It appears you accept the contradiction that a born-again Christian 
|    can kill, lie, steal, etc. It doesn't happen.

** True Christians (whose faith rests in Jesus the Christ of God alone) can
   and do sin in their earthly flesh, perhaps heinously, but they CANNOT reject
   God (who cannot deny Himself) and they CANNOT ignore sin.  Those who claim
   to be saved while sinning without repentance and confession for forgiveness
   and cleansing (putting off the old and putting on the new) were/are not
   (being) saved.  Such conduct is antichrist and they may go out from us, but
   they are not of us; "for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have
   continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that
   they were not all of us." (1Jo.2:19, KJV)
    
|    I don't believe this follows necessarily from what you said earlier. 
|    Sin will not stand in the way of our salvation.  Those who believe that
|    it is possible to cease sinning this side of heaven don't know their
|    Bible well enough on the subject, don't know themselves well enough,
|    take a light view of sin, and are pitiable concerning the obvious lack
|    of understanding of the relationship which has been established by God
|    on his/her behalf.

** Sin will not deter our salvation.  But those who do not believe on Christ
   are condemned already.  "And this is the condemnation, that light is come
   into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their
   deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither
   cometh to the light, lest his deeds be discovered. But he that doeth truth
   cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are
   wrought in God. (Jn.3:18-21, KJV)

Again, this all comes back to the sovereignty of God.  According to foreknowl-
edge (seeing all things in the present tense), God makes adoption sure for His
elect (those who confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord).

	ADOPTION is Son-placing, making like Jesus.

	ELECTION is setting aside the carnal and choosing/establishing the
	spiritual.

	PREDESTINATION is guaranteeing ADOPTION.

Adoption, Election and Predestination are definite acts of God on our behalf.
Faith is being convinced that God can do what He says.  Obedience is choosing
to cooperate with God "which worketh in us both to will and to do of His good
pleasure." (Ph.1:13)  "We love Him, because He first loved us." (1Jo.4:19)

We have a choice:  We can rest in God's sovereignty regarding ourselves as His
elect, or we can question His sovereignty regarding ourselves and others to
diminish our hope!

/Wayne

>    I think for us to even discuss this is to say that we can know the
>    hearts of man and is motivated out of pride.  
    
    Above is what Nancy said.  I thought "this" meant the topic at hand,
    God's salvation of us sinners.  I disagreed and replied that I thought
    it was a very important topic worthy of discussion.  I didn't say, but
    agree with Tony, that to discuss the topic does not necessitate being
    prideful or saying we know the heart of man in contradiction to the
    Scriptures.
    
    jeff

    I guess my words were not chosen well, Jeff.
    
    I'll try and say what I really meant from my heart.
    
    In the past when the topic has come up, it has always led towards the
    path of verbal destruction.  It becomes a battle of who can articulate
    their point of view better.
    
    The only fruit borne is that of animosity and I guess I jumped the gun
    in hopes of allaying that same result.
    
    Let me better say what I meant to say as a result of that insight:
    
    Each time we get into a discussion of OSAS, it appears as though we
    also get into the discussion of who is and who is not saved.  While I
    believe that God has given us a plan of salvation and method therein to
    receive his gift, I also believe that after my responsibility to God to
    declare such a plan, I should NOT argue my belief with anyone as
    evidenced in Jesus teaching in Matthew.
    
    Jesus DECLARED the gospel, but he did not argue with the pharisees.  He
    may even have declared them fools [which I believe only HE could do and
    we are not called to declare such things] but he did not *argue*.
    
    We often call arguing debate.
    
    Based on the re-entrance of the JWs on this topic, I believe that we
    could be headed down the same path as before, argue versus debate, as a
    matter of fact the sniping already started.
    
    If you are sure of your position regarding salvation and the JWs are
    sure of their position regarding salvation, why not begin to share
    about your personal relationship with Jesus versus discussing who is or
    is not saved and whether or not God can keep your salvation.
    
    To *ME* this comes from the pride of knowledge... and the ego says my
    interpretaion must be right and yours wrong.
    
    Look to the examples given us... Gamaliel and Christ, what was their
    response.
    
    Nancy
    

    re .30 (JULIET::MORALES_NA)
    
>    Based on the re-entrance of the JWs on this topic, I believe that we
>    could be headed down the same path as before, argue versus debate, as a
>    matter of fact the sniping already started.
    
        With the exception of this posting of mine, the only JW reply under
    this basenote is 858.17, which was a *very* brief reply by Phil
    Yerkess; one which I'd hardly say amounted to a great deal of
    argumentation.  (Unless there's another JW whom I don't yet know, since
    I haven't been around much in this conference for quite some time.)
    
        You're not thinking of note 855.* are you, in which I and Phil have
    replied at greater length?

>    If you are sure of your position regarding salvation and the JWs are
>    sure of their position regarding salvation, why not begin to share
>    about your personal relationship with Jesus versus discussing who is or
>    is not saved and whether or not God can keep your salvation.
...    
>    Look to the examples given us... Gamaliel and Christ, what was their
>    response.
    
        Gameliel just came up in note 855.
    
        Your advice is still good, however.
    
        							-mark.

    
    I understand your concern, Nancy.  But fear of what might occur is not
    reason enough to deter such an important discussion.  And a better
    question might be, "is your concern appropriate?"  One must reconcile
    the tension between defending the faith once and for all delivered to
    the saints and the manner in which one defends it.  It is inappropriate
    to cease defending the faith.  And it is inappropriate to defend the
    faith in an unChristlike manner.  So one has to know what "the faith"
    is on one hand, and know it well, while defending it with all humility. 
    It's a tough requirement but God has and will equip each of us to do so
    as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus
    Christ.
    
    jeff

    I wold admit to the enmeshment of both topics. :-)

    Jeff,
    
    I'm not fearful of the possibility of argument, I'm more full of
    complete and utter dislike of it.
    
    The question I asked myself is can I see Jesus better in this debate? 
    Or do I see two folks going at it over Jesus.
    
    You decide for yoursef.

I'm with you, Nancy.

As I contended in .1, I don't think it is possible to construct an air-tight
Scriptural case either for OSAS or loss of salvation.  Each case requires an
emphasis on certain scriptures and a de-emphasis of other scriptures.  When
we try to get into proof-texting, we soon begin generating heat as each side
sees with dismay how the other side is de-emphasizing the scriptures which
they themselves are emphasizing.

Though I don't go for the blanket "Can't we agree to disagree" when applied
to discussions where one side has NO scriptural support, in a case like this
where both sides DO have sound scriptural support that tends to be my desire.

Principles to take from the subject:

1) Treat your salvation as already accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ, and 
   rest secure in the knowledge that it is in HIS hands, not yours, and you 
   can't 'lose' it.  Don't fret.

2) Treat your salvation as if to fall away from Christ for a short time would
   forever lose your salvation.  Take seriously the work of being conformed
   to the likeness of Christ.  Work out your salvation with fear and
   trembling.

These seem contradictory, but I think the balance between them is where the
Lord wants us.  And that's about as far as I think the productive dissection
of this subject goes.  Beyond that, it seems we begin dissecting each other
more than the subject at hand.

Paul

P.S. Mike, despite people saying they weren't sure what you were saying, I
heard it and agree.

      Hi,
    
        I don't really have quite the heart to engage in most topics
        (save eternal conscious torment versus temporary which can 
        always get me going!) and I'll summarize here.
    
        Lucifer left, man!  I feel he saw a whole lot more glory than
        many people ever did.  Its agape that attracts.  Thats the 
        glory.
    
        My assurance is not in believing in a doctrine that says I can't
        leave Him, its in growing in believing that He'll never leave me.
    
    						Tony

>        My assurance is not in believing in a doctrine that says I can't
>        leave Him, its in growing in believing that He'll never leave me.


Amen, Amen and Amen

Paul

    Yowza, Tony, that's the ticket!  He'll never let you go.
    
    Could not be said/summarized any better.
    
    /Wayne

    If you teach love and grace and live your life out of gratitude to God 
    for His love and grace, you should be safe ;-)
    
    Mike

    hi,
    
       i'm not a calvinist nor a arm. i've been in churches(fund. baptist
    and pentecostal)that take each side but do not call myself a follower
    of each one. i'm just trying to find the truth. mike heiser wrote in
    600. somewhere that there is enough scripture that shares both sides,
    osas and loss of salvation. i can say that the holy spirit convicts
    me, today, that my salvation is secure because the will of God is, that i
    follow Christ, i believe i am doing that and convicted of it.          .
         someone earlier mentioned that a believer would not sin. there is
    much evidence in the old(like king david) and new testaments(like the 
    disciples)that believers sinned. THANK YOU LORD, FOR YOUR GRACE!!!  i
    guess my overall question was if once a believer, at some time, steps
    away  from God for good, is he or she stilled saved? i'm convicted the
    answer is no. 
         Can we not be lead astray? Is this not the position of satan to the
    believer and the unbeliever? example: there was an evangelist, who was
    that, for many years. he fell(like lucifer, but in his own way of
    coarse)and became a well known athiest. whos to say he was convicted of
    the holy spirit or not, but wasnt lucifer, holy one of God? do we
    assume because it was before the coming of Christ(when lucifer fell)that
    he(lucifer) could not be saved and only believers thru Christ who fall
    and never return to God can still be saved?
          i realize a convicted believer chooses to be lead astray when he
    or she has the LORD to show he or she the way. To believe with
    conviction and to fall and never return to God is possible with the
    possibility of loss of salvation. Lucifer among many have proven you
    can believe in God, leave him to never return and not be saved. There
    should be no security in your salvation(with conviction)when your out
    of the will of God, to never return. 
    
             love in Jesus,  thomas
    

    Hello everyone,
    
    	My name is Katy. I would like to share an experience with you.
    First of all, I am 21 years old. I am just beginning to get interested
    in God and all that comes with it. For many years I have pondered the 2
    most pondered thoughts. #1. God is not real. #2. God is real.
    	I have questioned these in many ways. I'd say, " There is no God,
    he is only known so widely because so many people believe, and people
    only believe becaus ethey need something strong enough to help them."
    	then I'd say, " Well, there must be something out there. I pray
    when in trouble, when in a difficult situation." and this was what made
    me want to look into it all. I though, and peole have said to me, "If
    there was no God, I wouldn't be praying, I wouldn't be thinking of Him"
    
    	So...To the saved part....I remember when i was a kid(still am I
    guess).......I was told to put on this robe thing, go to the stand and
    read a little speech I had written in Sunday school. Apparently this
    was my being saved moment. Being so young, I didn't understand what it
    was about or why I had to do it. My mother said I had been saved then.
    I told her," How could that have been being saved when I felt no effect
    of it short term or long term?" To this day, I feel it had no effect on
    my life. My father is the pastor of our church. He has been asking me
    when I would like to come forward and be ??saved?? or something.  ( i
    forgot the exact word he used).....I said i wasn't ready. And i am not.
    I want to ubderstand what God is all about. The story, the bible. I am
    now attending a bible study in the church to help me with this. 
    	It's just so much to grasp all at once, seems so unreal to want to
    believe! But I guess that's how He wanted it huh? We have to work at
    ourselves to come to that point? I mean one can't suddenly become full
    of faith and understanding? I am still in doubt, only becuse it has
    always seemed so unreal-like, but I am keeping an open mind and
    absorbing all I can . 
    	Being told and led to believe as a child, that if you don't believe
    and have faith, you will never go to heaven is quite a scare to most,
    if not all, kids. Hearing that really frightens kids. Makes them think,
    if I believe in God and give myself to Him to lead my life, then I will
    never be able to do what I wish and want to do. Fells like you have to
    give up to something/someone you can't "see", and someone you don't
    know! That has been my stuggle as far back as I can remember. 
    	Any input?
    
    			Katy

	Hello Katy,

	It's true, you can't literally "see" Jesus, except imperfectly
in his disciples.  But, you *can* get to know him personally, as you pray
and read your Bible, asking him to show you who God the Father really is.

	Trying to find out whether and how to surrender/give oneself up
to God can be a major struggle for anyone who seriously considers it.

	Please realize that all God is asking us to give up on is our
own stubborn insistence on our "right" to go on rebelling against him,
and ignoring his rightful ownership of us, as our Creator and Redeemer.
What he freely offers to us is friendship and communion with him, forever.

	May God's Holy Spirit fill you with understanding and peace,
as you appreciate, accept, and trust in the finished work of Christ.

							Bob Sampson

Hi Katy!



	If you believe in Him, that's the 1st step. If you tell him that you
want to be part of Him, do His Will, Love Him, He will be there for you. There
doesn't need to be this earth moving experience for you to be saved. If you
have told Him you're giving your life up to Him, then you are saved. He will
take you on a journey that will have the highs and lows, but regardless, it
will be wonderful. The things you will learn from Him are going to be
wonderous. He is the GREATEST!


Glen

    Hi,
    
    I try to keep an 'open' mind about doctrines where the Bible is pretty
    'clear' on both sides, such as this.
    
    I see (yet) another example of mid-eastern thought where two
    (seemingly) contradictory thought streams exist side-by-side. In
    Western thought, we are very much "IF this... then that... - always".
    
    Yesterday (Sunday) Pastor started a new series of sermons on the
    parables of Jesus. The parable of the Sower being the first one he
    touched (in Luke 8).
    
    He mentioned that this passage (and its' parallel in Matthew) covered
    'savation can be lost' (the seed on the thin soil), but also appeared
    to support the 'once saved always saved' (the good soil). How come the
    difference? The primary difference between the two groups is the fruit
    that they produce.
    
    As we have all heard before, those in the thin soil grow for a while,
    but don't (can't!?) put down deep roots - so they blossom for a while,
    and then die off. No fruit in their lives. Those on the good soil
    produce a crop 100 times (in Luke) and show forth much fruit.
    
    Did the first group ever experience 'salvation'? Only God really knows.
    Perhaps they did, and they 'lost' it. Perhaps they never did in the
    first place, but were just caught up in the hype of the moment.
    
    For me, I tend slightly to a 'once saved always saved' but 'be sure to
    bear fruit in keeping with your salvation' model ;')
    
    From a personal point of view (the only one I can really speak with any
    authority ;'), I know that before 1986 I was a Christian. I know too
    that in 1986 I rejected God, and rejected my Salvation.
    
    Now, in 1990 I (re-)accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and I _know_
    the assurance of my Salvation.
    
    Was I deluded in the time before 1990? Did I never have Salvation, but
    only thought I did? Or did I really have it and reject it, and for what
    ever reason in His Infinte Mercy, grant me a 'second chance'?
    
    To be honest, it doesn't _really_ matter; now. A scary situation if I
    had died before January 1990 though :'/
    
    H
    added 'no matter what'. But he pointed out that there appears to be a
    'condition' o

Hi Katy & welcome! I am too tired to write a long note right now. Just logged
in to check a job I have running & while waiting for an operation to complete,
peeked in here, but I'm exhausted & ready for bed. 

It sounds like you are taking the right steps in getting your questions
answered by going to the Bible study. Ask God to make Himself known to you,
and spend some time reading the Bible & thinking about things on your own
as well. Sometimes I think it is extra hard for pastors' children because
everyone expects and assumes certain things about them.

Leslie

Welcome, Katy.  I'm so glad you joined in here.

It's really hard to answer your questions without sounding trite, and without
replaying things you've heard all your life.  With a pastor as a father,
you've heard all the Christain phrases before.  For example my first reaction
to your questions was to I want to assure you that "the one who seeks will
find, and to the one who knocks the door will be opened," assuring you that
if you continue to seek Him you WILL find Him.  But then I realized that
you've heard that phrase all your life, and hearing it again won't really do
much.

Instead, ponder this:  Each one of those phrases and concepts which you've
heard all your life, to the point that they have no real meaning for you, has
at its core a REAL meaning - something that is real and true and profound.  I
grew up in church too, and there were so many phrases which I heard over and
over and over and over (like "having a personal relationship with Jesus")
which had no real meaning for me due to the repitition.  But as I've grown in
Christ I've come to understand the reality behind those phrases.

Perhaps if you were to take some of those phrases that you know verbatim, and
seek the real truth that is contained in them, seek the Lord in them and ask
Him to bring them alive to you?

Paul

      Hi Katy,
    
        Its replies like yours that makes me want to 'temporarily'
        suspend all discussions that are of a friendly doctrinal
        debate and focus my immediate attention on you!  This is
        what its all about.  There's so much I want to say, but I
        have to go into Fab 4 pretty soon!
    
        The big thing for me is that there is a law of conscious
        existence working here.  This is kind of philosophical, but
        I believe conscious existence is nothing more than what we
        perceive and how we choose to process what we perceive.
    
        Phillipians 4:8
        Finally, brethren [and sistren!  ;-) ], whatever things are
        true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just,
        whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever
        things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there
        is anything praiseworthy -- meditate on these things.
    
        We all have extremely muffled senses of spiritual hearing.  Faith
        is the perceptive channel and its so hard to believe!  Its a
        growing thing.
    
        God is trying to tell us so much.  I believe He most wants to say,
    
        "I love you - you personally.  Do you know how much?  If you were
         the only sinner in the universe, I would have gladly given up
         my eternal existence just for you.  If that would warm your
         heart and cause you to want to love like Me.  You are everything
    	 to Me.  You personally."
    
        God is personally telling you, every moment of every day, "I love
        you.  I will never forsake you."  And the seal of those words is
        His own shed blood.
    
        Katy, I think the most important thing you can do is to make
        choices as to what you behold.  Choose to behold better things.
        Choose to see love (and thus God) in creation.  Choose to want
        to hear the voice of God.
    
        And pray what is perhaps my favorite prayer...
    
        "Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief."
    
        Thank you for entering your note.  It is surely evidence that there
        is a God for He moved you to write it.
    
        Choose to believe that too!
    
    						Take Care and God Bless,
    
    						Tony
                                

    	Well, thanks every body. This bible study I am attending is really
    interesting. My uncle teached it, he had us pray one at a time. It was
    really hard for me becuase I have never really prayed in front of
    others like that, but it all came out and I had no fears. I think the
    younger you are the hared it is to lay yourself out in prayer, due to
    being nervous of what others will think of you(friends, etc...) My
    little sister is in the class and she passed on her turn to pray. I
    know it was because her friends were there. But that's ok, It is
    expected of young adults to fell that pressure on them. I am so happy I
    have finally let that go in myself, finally able to speak out what I am
    feeling and to pray to God. It was almost a relief to do it. 
    		Katy

    HI Katy!
    
    What a refreshing note you entered into this conference!  First, I'd
    like to say welcome!  I hope you'll continue reading in here.  But then
    I also want to ask a few questions.  Your questions sparked some for
    me.
    
    When did your father become a pastor and of what denomination i.e.,
    Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal,etc?
    
    Can I ask also if you have read the "testimonies" topic in here where
    folks shared how they came to know Christ as their Savior?
    
    Hope to hear from you soon,
    Nancy

	Hi Thomas,    

>     someone earlier mentioned that a believer would not sin. there is
    >much evidence in the old(like king david) and new testaments(like the 
    >disciples)that believers sinned. THANK YOU LORD, FOR YOUR GRACE!!!  i
    >guess my overall question was if once a believer, at some time, steps
    >away  from God for good, is he or she stilled saved? i'm convicted the
    >answer is no. 

    That would have been me.  Of course believers sin and I mistakenly left
    the impression that we do not (then later contradicting myself a few
    paragraphs down).  What I was responding to was your characterisation, 
    and I paraphrase, of "someone who "accepted" Christ and then lived a life 
    of debauchery for 40 years but would be saved anyway."  You disagreed with
    this idea, if I recall it correctly.  But your explanation was that
    because this man "accepted" Christ, he was indeed saved and then through
    his long life of debauchery, lost his salvation.  My argument, and the
    doctrines of salvation in the Bible, insist that this man was never saved
    in the first place, rather than that he once was saved then lost his
    salvation later due to his sin. 

    jeff    

    	My dad became a pastor about 3 years ago. I believe Baptist. He
    "transformed" himself from a drunken alcoholic fool into a wonderful
    man!! I guess that can prove to me that God is real! He told me that
    God spoke to him through me. We were at a funeral, a good friend of the
    family that had helped my dad a lot, and the guys son asked if anyone
    would like to say a few words. Well, I suddenly felt my dad should do
    it, so I nugged hima nd told him ha HAD to stand up and say something.
    Well, he did, and from that day on, he was on his raod to recovery. 
    	To this day he says it was the Lord that spoke to him through me. 
    	That still makes me feel quite impressed. So, that was also when I
    started wondering about God. And here I am!
    		Katy

My response exactly!  Wonderful!  May He fulfil the hunger He has awakened!

Paul

    Wow!  Praise the Lord is in order.   
    
    I hope you'll take the time to read the testimonies topic.  I don't
    recall it's note number right now... uhm, let me see if I can find it.
    

 The testimony topic is 34.





 Jim

    Have you read Dr. Charles Stanley's book
    Eternal Security
    Can you be sure?
    
    It deals with many of the questions you are having.  
    
    Basically my opinion is that if by the work of Salvation that Christ
    did on the cross in atonement for all my sins past present and future
    and if I have genuinely been saved then there is absolutely no way that
    I could sin and blow it because all my sins are paid for.  If I can
    lose my salvation then his death and ressurection is of no-effect.  
    There is tons of scripture on this - I will need to research this more
    and provide for you.  But this is a good start.  The opposite viewpoint
    is very convincing as well - but I will say that if you believe you
    can lose your salvation then you will be living in fear.
    
    Rick Nickles
    

      I just had a thought which was prompted by Rick's reply where
      Rick said that if you believe you might lose your salvation,
      you will live in fear.
    
      I wonder if people can become so sanctified that they have a
      much higher motivation; like that of Moses (Ex. 32:32) and
      Paul (Rom. 9:3) where they expressed a willingness to relinquish
      salvation.
    
      I wonder if eventually the desire to just be a totally given
      offering for the Lord would be such that so much of your conscious-
      ness is placed on wanting to glorify Him and on thinking of the
      salvation of others (and not yourself) that self-preservation isn't
      really thought about anymore.
    
      Concern for one's salvation is still a self-concern.  Can people,
      by the grace of God, be so 'everyon else-concerned' that self-
      concern is lost sight of?
    
      I think so.  Evidence: Moses and Paul.
    
    						Tony
    
    							Tony

    Hi Katy
    
         My advice is to continue to be involved at church, hearing the
    word of God, fellowshipping with the believers, reading your bible and
    praying to the Lord. Becareful when you look at people who believe,
    realize they are not perfect, seeing what good that comes thru them is from
    God, knowing they are not perfect,  God is working on them. 
        The holy spirit is working on you and you will learn and grow with
    more conviction, understanding and wisdom of God. Be patient.You will
    always have questions and want answers. I want to tell you that God has
    a plan for you, a reason for life, a purpose and he will reveal it to
    you. Be patient. Isnt it great to know that when we become children of
    God, we have purpose? Amen. 
            I pray for you Katy, that you stay in the will of God and
    though thru tough times(and though we have the Lord there will be
    tough times, but only God, the master planner, can use them in a special
    way to help you grow and have a positive effect in other peoples
    lives)and victories in Christ, his GRACE be upon you and that you never give
    up, fighting the good fight(trials in life).
              You have a good source of knowledgable, understanding
    brothers and sisters in this conference, i encourage you to use it when
    you have questions or any comments, replys. God bless you.
    
                  Love in him, Thomas
    

 Amen!

    
    
    
    		Thank You. My uncle had said to me....
    
    	You will always have questions and wonders all through your
    Christian life. He said he got saved years ago, and still has wonders
    about things. So to hear that makes it less of a fearful time to
    experience. That's why I think young adults have such a difficult time
    when it comes to "giving" your life away to God. We don't hear enough
    of the positive sounding aspects of what it is to give yourself to God.
    We hear,,....give yourself, your life to someone(God) to control your
    life...and the first and lond term reaction is....NO WAY!!!
    	So, I am content with this class at church. We are using an easy to
    understand workbook....."A Handbook to Christian Maturity"...by Bill
    Bright.....

    Jeff,
    
    I appreciate the chance to offer an answer to your question.  
    
    Most folks who read this conference know me by now.  They know my
    testimony of salvation and they know the struggles in relationships
    with my ex-husband and family members. [Anyone who's reading this and
    doesn't know my testimony can send me mail offline and I'll send it to
    you.  It's the Lord's so I offer it for free] :-) :-)
    
    I've recently come under another trial which rendered me to my knees. 
    The below text is dialogue I had with another person and I hope it will
    clarify some of where the Lord has brought me over the last few months.
    I am so encouraged because the Lord has answered my prayer and desire on the
    below to know him more fully.  Excitingly so as a matter of fact
    because just after I wrote the below I begged the Lord to hold me in
    his arms as a little girl, that I needed to know the size of his ears,
    shape of hands and the beating of his heart and that all I thought I
    knew about him would be taken from me and to reveal himself to me so
    that I could truly understand who He is to me... the personal me not
    the "world" me. :-)
    
    *****************************************
    
I've sure messed that up, haven't I?  I'm allowing anger to be poured 
out towards God.  And the truth is, I don't know how to not be angry at 
him.  I suppose I could tritely say what my head knows i.e., faith&trust 
but it is that very element of my Christianity that has been weakened by 
the trials of my life.  When I rededicated my life to God I didn't 
realize until about 2 years ago that this part of why I backslid has 
never been fully dealt with.  I swept it under the carpet pretending it 
didn't exist.  I wanted to BEHAVE as though I had faith, believing that 
I could convince myself through being faithful in my actions.  I think 
for the most part when we don't "feel" something, we should still have 
the character to "behave" appropriately and thus, that is what I "chose" 
to do with my head.  I had knowledge, but no wisdom... and rightfully 
stating it now, I have knowledge, but no wisdom.

Through this act of choosing God even though my insides were still full 
of doubt, I actually convinced myself for a period of time that the 
doubt was gone.  Not doubt in God, not doubt in my salvation, but doubt 
that he cared about me personally.  That my life is merely the reaping 
of my father's sin and his father's sin, etc., and that this individual 
accountability stuff was really for the birds.  But I looked at your 
life Mark [Metcalfe] and I saw godliness in your heritage and I see the godliness 
in your life today in marriage with family.  Part of my head said, well 
if I can get my "behavior" in order, then maybe my kids have a chance at 
reaping something better than what I am reaping from my heritage.

In other words a straining process of sinful behavior.  If I could 
strain enough sin out of my life, it could empower my children to have 
even less sinful heritage, and then their children would have less and 
on down the line.  

But lying dorman inside me is and I must now acknowledge that question 
and resentment of my childhood.  I am ANGRY about it.  And I forgave my 
father and mother, but I've held within me God accountable for every 
horrible act performed towards me.

How do I reconcile this with God?  Reading Job's account causes me so 
much shame and guilt that I find it painful to read.  I'm finding that 
this adversity in my life is revealing the weak character I truly have.  
And at the same time, is this weakness also created by God?  After all 
would it be there, if I had not had such rejection and invalidation in 
my life.

Mark, I always thought that I had my grandmother's love and this was 
what became my anchor, that she loved me.  And before her death, this 
past December, she had rejected me and even disowned me as her 
grandchild.  Why?  Because my aunts told her that I accused my father of 
molesting me.  [Another story - which I think you know already].

I LOST the only person on this earth from my memories that I had 
connected with and felt love from and before she died I felt her 
despisement.

No MORE guilt... No MORE shame... not the kind that takes a heart and 
renders it useless to everyone around them.

I've blown it.  I can never say that no matter what 
I've gone through in life, I kept my faith and integrity.  It's not 
completely gone, for even in my writing this I am begging God to help me 
turn on the lights.  I liken this spiritual journey to one being 
enclosed in a castle with no windows and no lights except for one candle 
that is half spent and running around bumping into the walls trying to 
hurry up and find more candles to light that room before that one candle 
is extinguished.

Mark, what I've written is also not meant to discourage, but to be real 
and honest and face that which will only seek to destroy me over and 
over again.  These destructive patterns must be dealt with and I 
desperately need to know exactly who is God to me.  Not just my ticket 
out of hell, but the one who places one set of footprints in the sand.

Nancy
    
    

    
    	Wow, that was powerful! You really have it in you to lay it out!
    That's wonderful, I think that just saying those words is helping you 
    the moment you wrote them. I don't believe God and help with
    everything, I think one must seek help for themselves, in therapy or
    whatever. God is there to lean on when no one else can do anymore. 
    	Well, He's much more than a lean on, but YOu know what I mean.(?)
    I don't know your story, but you seem together about what you feel.
    
    		Katy

    Katy,
    
    Yup, I know what you mean. :-)

    Hi everybody. Wow, it's been some time since I wrote all that good
    stuff huh? Well, I have some good news. Kind of amazing actually. I
    acpeted Jesus Christ as my savior some time ago. It was a regular
    Sunday morning at church. My dad every so often before the last hymn is
    sung, will tell people if they feel moved to come forward to join the
    church or accept Christ to do so durning the last song. Well this
    particluar morning, I had the bible study first. In the study I was
    expressing very deply that I was NOT ready to accept anything. I
    couldn;t handle it, there was no way I would have ever thought what
    happened next would!
    	So church goes on, and during the last section of it, I thought to
    myself...."if dad asks people to come forward today, I know I must do
    it." Now he asks this maybe once a month or more, so I didn;t have a
    clue if he was going to do this. Well, he did. Let me tell ya!  The
    last song was next, my dad asked, during the first verse I
    thought,"well, if it feels like I should go up I will, but if not, I
    won't"....well, the verses were so perfect to my feelings, describing
    everything I was thinking, though of, felt like everything! I started
    to shake a bit. Now I never thought I would say this, but, I actually
    believe that He was with me very strongly, right there, IN me, jholding
    me up, and felt as if He walked me toward my dad! Man, unreal.
    	When I approached my dad  said, " say a prayer for me that you
    think I need to help me get to the point of accepting Jesus, I don;t
    know if I am ready but He put me here." So my dad said a prayer, I
    started to cry, don;t know why, but man I bawled!
    	The hymn ended and here comes my mom crying her eyes out, totally
    and completely emotional. I felt as if it were one the greatest days of
    my life.
    
    	NOW, today....I have strayed from it all. I lost a lot of
    enthusiasm to learn. The bible study ended for the summer(crazy I
    know), the other study's I miss due to work and my little boy. BUt, I
    really haven't taken any time to read the bible. I have one at home
    right in my face and I never pick it up. Why do you think I am doing
    this? I don;t feel it's on purpose. Any ideas? 
    
    	>katy

    Hi Katy,
    
>Hi everybody. Wow, it's been some time since I wrote all that good
>stuff huh? Well, I have some good news. Kind of amazing actually. I
>acpeted Jesus Christ as my savior some time ago. It was a regular
    
    	Hallelujah!  Since you asked Jesus to be your savior, have you
    noticed that the Holy Spirit gives you clarity of understanding
    the scriptures and spiritual things that wasn't there before?

>   NOW, today....I have strayed from it all. I lost a lot of
>enthusiasm to learn. The bible study ended for the summer(crazy I
>know), the other study's I miss due to work and my little boy. BUt, I
>really haven't taken any time to read the bible. I have one at home
>right in my face and I never pick it up. Why do you think I am doing
>this? I don;t feel it's on purpose. Any ideas? 
    
    	Why?  Probably for some of the same "reasons" the rest of us.
    Human tendancies.  What St. Paul calls "the flesh" (sarx), that
    element of disobedience that wars against the Spirit in every
    Christian.  Maybe you're being tempted especially to neglect
    the Bible because someone is afraid of what you might do to
    his plans otherwise.  My advice is to resist the temptation.
    Use the "whole armor of God".  (Do you know where to find that?
    I think it's in Galatians.)  What I also find help me are reminders,
    like looking in on this notes conference and seeing a scripture posted,
    and a "One Year Bible" office calendar, which quotes from one of the
    daily scripture readings, and gives the references for the others.
    
    FWIW,
    Bob Sampson

    Katy,
    
    It is incredible that you've come to know Christ as your Savior!  But
    He is a very powerful and loving God. Halelujah!
    
    As I read your account, I was with you as you walked down the aisle,
    and I felt your mother's tears and father's prayer... thank you for
    sharing this part of you.
    
    I also was with you as you said your fervor had diminished and you
    wondered why.. I remember this well... and I soon found out that the
    reason [for ME] was because God had called me to surrender a part of my
    life that I was holding on to... "self."  The self that knew what was
    best for me and ignored what God said was best for me... i.e., my
    sexuality; partying... etc.
    
    I had grieved the spirit of God in my life which resulted in a dulling
    of my desire to read the Bible, go to church, etc.
    
    I guess I would ask since you accepted Jesus as your Savior, have you
    set apart your behaviors towards holiness?  Please don't feel that you
    must answer this in here, for it is merely a conjecture, an offering if
    you will of a reason.
    
    I am so encouraged by your writing and rejoice with you over your new
    life.  Be assured regardless of the reason behind this draught, He will
    never forsake you or leave you.
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy

    Hi Katy,
    
    Thats a really beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing.  Its a
    real encouragement to me.
    
    Have you tried asking Him your question?  Now that He is part of you
    this is possible.  Its really awesome too! (John 14:26, Romans 8:26-27)  
    
    
    Jill
    

    HI.
    I don;t think I "understand" the scriptures I have read. It's more like
    NOW, when I read them, I am more able to relate myself/my life to them.
    My mother told me not to long ago, to read the Palms. She said they may
    be very comforting for me. And yes they were, but I only read the first
    10 or so. Sometimes, after a while I feel like I am just reading to
    read, not getting anything out of it. Like I am back in school and
    reading an assignment I don't want to do. But other times I really get
    a lot out of it, atleast just for the passing moment or feeling.
    	
    I think I am going through a similar struggle...  what's best for me
    vs. what God says is best for me
    
    My main question has always been......how do I what He says is best 
    for me. I find that just about impossible and maybe that's why I
    struggle with it. I have really stressed out trying to figure out
    what's best for me. I don;t know. But ever since I accepted HIm, I am
    less worried about what may or may not happen in the future.
    	Say, 2 years ago, with all that is going on in my life now, if I
    were to be in a state of mind as I was then......I'd be flipping off
    the walls right now, depressed all the time. But I'm not, I say to
    myself that all will be ok. There may be hard tough crazy times, but in
    the final outcome, everything will be fine. And I believe it too. BUT,
    lately, since I have not been reading the bible or really prying much,
    I have been getting really worried and stressed out. 'sigh'
    
    	I also find it hard for me to pray and be open about my belief and
    my acceptance of Jesus because my husband, who I love dearly, does not
    really "get into it", he doesn;t go to church with me or read the
    bible. Which is ok with me, to each his own, but it does make it
    difficult for me to be open with myself and the Lord in my own home.
    	I think I need some special place at home or somewhere else to be
    alone so I can have that time to "be" with God. I feel as if I put
    myself in this situation unconsciencly on purpose. ??
    Katy

    Hello again,
    
    Well, the "armor of God" passage is in Ephesians 6, not Galatians
    as I'd guessed, but you all knew that anyway :-).
    
    Katy, your home situation seems to me to attest to the fact that you're
    facing spiritual attack and temptation because "old slewfoot" sees
    that his stronghold is being destroyed in your family (one member at a
    time), and he's fearful (and angry and vindictive) about that.  So,
    take this as an encouraging sign that complete victory can be achieved
    over time as you persevere in doing good.
    
    Please remember that your sisters and brothers in this conference
    (and elsewhere) want to encourage you in any appropriate way we can.
    
    GBY,
    Bob Sampson

    
     I love these opportunities to "chime" in! In John 10:29, The Word says:
    "My Father, who gave [them to] me, is greater than all; and none is
    able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.]
    
    And a small piece from 2nd Timothy; "... The Lord knoweth them that are
    His."
    
     Bob