Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Here are some of my thoughts on Romans 7 and how it relates to Paul while 
    he was a Pharisee NOT a Christian. Paul uses the first person to emphasize 
    his point.  All Bible quotes from NASB.

A) In Romans 7:14, he is sold into bondage to sin;

      14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold
   	 into bondage to sin. 

However in Romans 6:16-18, he is freed from sin and a slave of righteousness;

      16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves
      	 for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin 
   	 resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 
      17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became
   	 obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were
   	 committed, 
      18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 


B) In Romans 7:19, he practices evil;

      19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil 
      	 that I do not want. 

However in 1 John 3:7-9, he practices righteousness;

      7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices
  	righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 
      8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned 
      	from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to 
      	destroy the works of the devil. 
      9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
   	and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

C) Sin indwelt him in Romans 7:17,20;

      17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 

      20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one
      	 doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 

However, Christ in-dwells Christians in Galatians 2:20;

      20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but 
  	 Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live 
      	 by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.  
 

D) He had good intentions, but was unable to follow through, Romans 7:15,18

      15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what
         I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 

      18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for 
         the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 

However the Christian can follow through with God's power as follows:

      1 Cor 10:13;

      13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God
         is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are
         able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so
         that you will be able to endure it. 
 
      Philippians 2:12-13;

      12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my 
         presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your 
         salvation with fear and trembling; 
      13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His
         good pleasure. 

      Philippians 4:13;

      13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. 


E) In Romans 7:22,23 the flesh is winning;

      22  For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 
      23  but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war 
      	  against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin
          which is in my members. 

However, in Romans 8:2, the spirit is winning;

       2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free 
      	  from the law of sin and of death. 

F) The Christian is filled with rejoicing in Philippians 4:4;

      4  Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 

However, he is filled with wretchedness in Romans 7:24;

      24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this 
   	 death? 


I guess the reason we so identify with the one of Romans 7 is because we 
haven't, BY FAITH, taken hold of Romans 6:11;

      11 Even so consider yourselves to be DEAD to SIN, but ALIVE to GOD in 
         Christ Jesus. 


In Him,

Peter2

      Hi Peter2,
    
        How ya doing?
    
        When one becomes a Christian, has he, at that point, perfectly 
        entered into Christ's rest?  Is it as black and white as that?
        In your experience, is your flesh 100% crucified and are you
        perfectly walking in the Spirit?
    
        The struggle of Romans 7 is very real to me for sins which have
        been recently shown to me for which I have yet to overcome.  It
        is not real for me for sins which have been revealed to me years
        ago for which I have overcome.  I expect Romans 7 will not apply
        to some of my problems of today, but the commandment will come 
        with more clarity and reveal things I have been up to that I, in
        God's mercy, have not yet have had revealed to me.
    
        Romans 7 is a continuous process.  Only the Christian beholds the
        law of God in greater and greater clarity, correspondingly beholds
        sin in greater clarity, and enters into the pain and struggles of
        the flesh.  The nonChristian turns away from the mirror of James
        [the perfect law of liberty] and so refuses this process to take 
        place in his heart.
    
        If Romans 7 must describe a nonChristian, then I am lost for it
        applies to me.  I struggle with things.  Am I alone?  I am still
        struggling with competitive sports, television (to some extent),
        coffee drinking, patience, envy,...
    
        I tend to think Paul is referring to a post-converted person
        because the person has an extremely sensitive conscience.  I don't
        know any nonconverted people in all the world who have the over-
        riding concern to do that which is right as it is described in
        Romans 7.  The only people I know of that are like that are
        Christians!  (And most have not nearly the concern that Paul 
        has.  Oh that we did!  That concern would seem to be a gift
        from God.)
    
        Another thing Peter, is the source of the law of sin and death.
        It is described as in our flesh/our members/this body.  This 'sin'
        is one we will have until our flesh is changed.  It refers not
        to an act of the mind, but to a characteristic of our physical
        flesh.  All of our flesh has this law of sin and death.
    
        I see Romans 7 as much like birth pangs.  We continuously are shown
        sin in deeper light and this is painful.  Its a struggle.  People
        typically don't overcome as in a moment.  But, then we learn to
        "give it all to Christ" and we more deeply learn to rest in Him.
        We have that peace.  But, another contraction is coming!  We see
        the commandment yet more deeply, see sin we had never seen before
        (or which may have seemed insignificant before, but now seems 
        exceedingly sinful) and the cycle just keeps going.
    
        "The commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Rom. 7:9) is a
        Christian's experience until that time a Christian dies or ventures
        behind the veil where the glory [commandment] is seen in its
        fulness and our sinfulness is seen in its corresponding fulness.
    
        If one believes our characters are perfected at the moment of
        faith, Rom. 7 can't apply to the Christian.  If sanctification is
        a continuous, progressive experience, it applies until that time
        the Christian dies or is sinless in character.
    
    							Tony

I agree with you, Tony.  Two things in particular that you said stood out:

>        I tend to think Paul is referring to a post-converted person
>        because the person has an extremely sensitive conscience.  I don't
>        know any nonconverted people in all the world who have the over-
>        riding concern to do that which is right as it is described in
>        Romans 7.  The only people I know of that are like that are
>        Christians!

It's so true!  There are so many non-Christians who think they are doing
wonderfully: "I'm a good person, I give away some money, I don't hurt anyone,
etc."  It's when we begin to come into contact with the Holiness of God that
we really begin to realize how far we have to go.

And I really liked your likening it to birth pangs, "Here comes another
contraction!" and the fact that as we grow closer to the Lord we see things
which are not of the Lord, which have always been there but which we never
identified as sin before.

Paul's description of the Christian life in Rom 7 does match our experience,
or at least mine and that of those I've shared with.  But we must be careful
not to base our interpretation of scripture on experience.

The biggest problem, Peter, with your view seems to be the verb tenses used
in this whole passage.  I don't really know Greek grammar (is there even such
a thing as the past tense?)  The tense through the first portion of chapter 7
is consistently in the indicative or aorist tenses.  I know the aorist tense
has a sense of 'timeless' - no particular reference to past, present, or
future.  And it seems (by the translation) that the indicative is often
translated as the past tense.  These tenses are used up through verse 12, but
starting in verse 13 "[the Law] produced death in me through what is good."
it uses the present tense.  The use of the present tense continues right on
through the rest of chapter 7 in almost all cases, right up to the last verse
"but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."  When he says "Who will
deliver me from this body of death?" it is in the future tense, not "Who HAS
delievered me from this body of death."

I think, based primarily on my reading of the Word and confirmed by my life
experience, that Romans 7 applies to Paul, not to the pre-conversion Saul.

Paul

    I believe it also refers to Paul and not Saul for all the reasons
    spoken by Tony and Paul Weiss.
    
    But also because I see a growing process.  Paul a newly converted
    Christian still struggled with the habits of his life as a pharisee. 
    He also had the guilt of the killing of Christians, especially Stephen. 
    
    
    The good news with the way you've cross posted these verses, you've
    shown me that regardless of today's struggle, I can have victory.  No
    Victory is MINE! :-) :-)  
    
    The path for getting that victory is God's plan of escape!  
    
    Thank you for posting this.

      re: .3
    
      Hi Paul,
    
        Actually, I think the birth pang thing is scriptural.  I think
        the essence of Jacob's time of trouble is this experience and
        the culmination of it is seeing the root - self love/exaltation.
    
        I think a group will see its guilt of the sin of the cross and
        the horror they will experience as a result of seeing, in its
        fulness, the evil that they are according to their nature, would
        be overwhelming if they did not have a tremendous assurance in
        the unconditional pardoning love of Christ.
    
        There is one last great contraction that gives birth to the
        fulness of the experience of a new life in Christ; all preceding
        contractions prerequisite to, and leading to, the great last one!!
    
    							God Bless,
    
    						      	Tony

    "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
    manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to
    vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same
    in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the
    bondage of corruption into the glorious libery of the children of God.
    For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain
    together until now. And not only they, but outselves also, which have
    the firstfruits of the Spirit, EVEN WE OURSLEVES GROAN WITHIN
    OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR
    BODY. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for
    what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we
    see not, then do we with patience wait for it. LIKEWISE THE SPIRIT ALSO
    HELPETH OUR INFIRMITIES: FOR WE KNOW NOT WHAT WE SHOULD PRAY FOR AS WE
    OUGHT: BUT THE SPIRIT ITSELF MAKETH INTERCESSION FOR US WITH GROANINGS
    WHICH CANNOT BE UTTERED." (Ro.8:19-26, KJV)
    
    Groaning and travail indicate a painful process to me, but the outcome
    is guaranteed:  We will be conformed to the image of Jesus.  I struggle
    with sinning, but the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I
    am a child of God and that God will finish the work He has begun in me.
    
    /Wayne

      Therefore we all, since we are surrounded by so great a 
      cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the
      sin which so easily ensnares us, looking to Jesus the Author
      and Finisher of our faith who for the joy that was set before
      Him endured the cross, despising the shame and had sat down
      at the right hand of the throne of God.
      For consider Him who endured such hostility of sinners against
      Himself, lest you be weary and discouraged in your souls.
      You have not yet RESISTED TO BLOODSHED striving against sin.
    
      And you have FORGOTTEN the exhortation which speaks to you as to
      sons: My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord.  Nor be
      discouraged when you are rebuked by Him.  For whom the Lord loves
      He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives.
      
      For if you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons,
      for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?  But, if you
      are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, you 
      are illegitemate and not sons.
    
      Furthermore, when your fathers corrected you, you paid them respect.
      How much more should you be in submission to the Father of spirits
      and live?  For they, for a few days, chastened us as seemed best to
      them, but He for our profit, that we may be PARTAKERS OF HIS
      HOLINESS.
    
      Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but grievous.
      Neverthless afterward it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness
      to those who have been trained by it.
    
    							Heb. 12:1-11
                          

    
    	Thanks, Tony!  I needed that!
    

It's worth noting that Paul's view of his 'self' grew less and less favorable
as time went on - as he became more and more aware of the Holiness and
Majesty of God, and his comparative unworthiness.  I'm sure the looking
objectively, Paul matured during those years, but in his own view he
progressed from being 'least of the apostles' in one of his early letters 
(I Cor 15:9) to, in one of his last letters, being the 'worst of sinners'
(I Tim 1:15).  And note that when he refers to himself as the 'worst of
sinners' here, he still uses present tense.  He doesn't say "I *was* the
worst of sinners," he says "I *am* the worst of sinners."

Paul

    Insightful observation, Paul!
    
    I suggested in note 795.616 that the beginning of perfection is really
    seeing ourselves as sinners.  Job abhored himself after seeing God more
    fully, and, as we know, Job's end was better than his beginning where
    he was described as perfect and upright.
    
    Hmmm...maybe the end of our perfection is finally appreciating how bad
    our sin really was when we see Jesus as He is.  When the corruptible and
    mortal is changed into the incorruptible and immortal, there will be
    absolutely no desire whatsoever to cling to anything of our sinful flesh.
    We will desire only God whose surpassing glory will fill our very
    being.
    
    /Wayne

I'd like to point out that Paul/Saul did not change his name. If you
read the account on the Damascus road you'll see nothing about a name
change in there. Saul is a transliteration of His Hebrew name Sha'ul.
Paul is the Greek variation on his name. I think the Greek was used 
more later, because he was reaching a mostly gentile audience in his
ministry and that form of his name was more familiar to them, plus our
records of the New Testament writings are written in Greek.

Leslie

      I just want to say that I got something out of each and every
      input.
    
    						Thanks!,
    
    						Tony