Conference yukon::christian_v7

As concerning foreknowledge, election and foreordination or predestination:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification
of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."
(1Pe1:2, KJV)

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image
of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom
He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also
justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we say then
to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His
own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely
give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is
God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea
rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also
maketh intercession for us...For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to
come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate
us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Ro8:29-34...38&38,
KJV)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not
His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him
might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be discovered. But he that doeth truth cometh to the
light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(Jo3:16-21, KJV)

	FOREKNOWLEDGE is an attribute of God, inherent to His nature.
	ELECTION and PREDESTINATION are acts of God, subject to His volition.

Questions: 1) What _exactly_ does God KNOW before it occurs?
           2) What _exactly_ does God DO based on what He knows?
           3) To whom did the light come, and who comes to the light?

Request for response:  You may define terms, but you may only quote Scripture
                       to express your opinion.  In other words, I'm asking
                       people to use only God's Word in context--not just one
                       verse in isolation--to reveal the truth as commended to
                       their hearts by the Holy Spirit.  If God's Word doesn't
                       quite say what you want to say, then keep studying/
                       reconciling until it does.  Let's see where this leads!

    Okay, I took a shot.  
    
>Questions: 1) What _exactly_ does God KNOW before it occurs?
    
    All.  
    Romans 11:33
    O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how
    unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    
>           2) What _exactly_ does God DO based on what He knows?
    
    His Will.  Scriptural support is tougher for this one.
    Romans 12:2
    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the
    renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and 
    acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    
    1 John 5:14
    And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any
    thing according to his will, he heareth us:
    
>           3) To whom did the light come, and who comes to the light?
    
    John 1:9  
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into 
    the world.
    
    John 12:46
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me
    should not abide in darkness.
    
    The Light exposes your sin, but you still have to accept Him.
    
    Mike

|>Questions: 1) What _exactly_ does God KNOW before it occurs?
    
|    All.  
|    Romans 11:33
|    O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how
|    unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

** Okay.  Since you didn't define the term "all", I get to ask another
   question. :-)  Does all include choices that will be made by every person
   born into the world before they're born?  And does all include the destiny
   of folks who, for whatever reason, never have opportunity to choose, e.g.,
   aborted babies?
    
|>           2) What _exactly_ does God DO based on what He knows?
    
|    His Will.  Scriptural support is tougher for this one.
|    Romans 12:2
|    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the
|    renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and 
|    acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    
|    1 John 5:14
|    And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any
|    thing according to his will, he heareth us:

** Again, you didn't define the term "His will", so I get to ask yet another
   question. :-)  What is God's will, specifically concerning the topic, i.e.,
   your salvation and the salvation of others?
    
|>           3) To whom did the light come, and who comes to the light?
    
|    John 1:9  
|    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into 
|    the world.
    
|    John 12:46
|    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me
|    should not abide in darkness.

** Good.  This is what I requested.  Scripture without interpretation or
   opinion.
    
|    The Light exposes your sin, but you still have to accept Him.

** Oops.  You've stated something extra, opinion and/or interpretation.  How
   do you know the Light came to expose sin versus reveal God?  How do you
   know you still have to accept Him (Jo 12:46 which you quoted)?


Do you see what I'm after here?  My request was to make your point ONLY with
Scripture without stating your point in your own words.

Thanks, Mike, for taking the first shot. :-)

/Wayne

    Hi Wayne -
    
    I like this a lot, but I'm busy today and not as fast with the word
    as Mike so please be patient with me and slow down a bit...
    
    >Questions: 1) What _exactly_ does God KNOW before it occurs?
    
    Psalm 139
    2You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from
     afar.
    3You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all
     my ways.
    4Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. 
    16your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were
      written in your book before one of them came to be.
    
    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good
    works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    
    
    >           2) What _exactly_ does God DO based on what He knows?
    Colossians 1:16
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
    visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or
    authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
                                                    ***
    Romans 9:17 (Exodus 9:16)
    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very
    purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might
    be proclaimed in all the earth."
    
    Romans 8:28
    And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who
    love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
    
    1 john 4:10
    This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his
    Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
    
    psalm 91
    14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him:
    I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
    15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I [will be] with him
    in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
    16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
    
    
    >           3) To whom did the light come, and who comes to the light?
    
    John 8:12
    When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the
    world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have
    the light of life."
    
    John 3:21
    But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be
    seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
    
    
    Jill2

    This is fun and I appreciate Wayne's efforts.  I've read where
    Christians of different languages were able to communicate to each
    other this way - just pointing out BCV to each other.
    
>                       <<< Note 847.37 by ROCK::PARKER >>>
>
>** Okay.  Since you didn't define the term "all", I get to ask another
>   question. :-)  Does all include choices that will be made by every person
>   born into the world before they're born?  And does all include the destiny
>   of folks who, for whatever reason, never have opportunity to choose, e.g.,
>   aborted babies?
    
    Psalm 78:5-8
    For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel,
    which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their
    children:
    That the generation to come might know them, even the children which
    should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
    That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God,
    but keep his commandments:
    And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation;
    a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not
    stedfast with God.
    
    Jeremiah 1:5
    Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest
    forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet
    unto the nations.
                         
>** Again, you didn't define the term "His will", so I get to ask yet another
>   question. :-)  What is God's will, specifically concerning the topic, i.e.,
>   your salvation and the salvation of others?
    
    John 3:16-17
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
    whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
    life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
    the world through him might be saved.
    
>** Oops.  You've stated something extra, opinion and/or interpretation.  How
>   do you know the Light came to expose sin versus reveal God?  How do you
>   know you still have to accept Him (Jo 12:46 which you quoted)?
    
    John 3:18-21
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
    condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
    begotten Son of God.
    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
    loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the
    light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made
    manifest, that they are wrought in God.


>Thanks, Mike, for taking the first shot. :-)

    you're welcome!
    Mike

I modified the title of the base note, Wayne, to include the topic of
discussion and not just how it was to be discussed.

Paul

re.0

Of course salvation is available to everyone.. "Whomsoever will..".

The fact that God knows those who "will" doesn't negate that fact.

For instance, I could announce to my coworkers that we need to work
straight through the weekend to complete a project. If I knew them
well enough I could determine who would respond and who would not. It
doesn't change the invitation just cause I know who will respond.

Same principle with God.

Ace

 Yow!

      	HERMANO, HOW ARE YOU DOING??!!!
    
        PRAISE THE LORD TO SEE YOU!!
    
    						Tony

>"I enjoy our conversations and discussions about the Word, but I wonder what a 
>discussion would look like that consisted ONLY of the Word.  For this topic, 
>I'd like to request that you respond with scripture ONLY, and not add your own 
>commentary.  If you think this is silly or too constrained, then just NEXT 
>UNSEEN at this topic." (Wording suggested by Paul Weiss)
    
>     /Wayne
    
    I'm curious about how folks think this worked out.  As you may remember
    I objected to such an exercise on the basis that it is, relative to
    actual discussion, not an adequate method for analyzing doctrine or
    "beliefs".  
    
    What's the assessment of its results and its power to convince?
    
    jeff
    

    RE: .10
    
    Why am I not surprised to see your "comment", Jeff?
    
    Anyway, can't answer your question because no one other than Mike, Jill
    and I took a stab.  Note .7 was an opinion, perhaps Scripturally based,
    but without explicit reference.  Maybe Ace meant his reply for topic 847?
    
    /Wayne 

    I thought it was great!

    .12 Mike
    
>    I thought it was great!