Conference yukon::christian_v7

    {sigh}

    It's a sad tale - made even sadder by the fact that it's true!!!
    Thanks for this Paul - I pray it will hit home in all our hearts the
    REAL purpose why God leaves us on this earth after we've got saved.
    
    William Booth told a similar story to this, but the people in his story
    had all been saved from the sea first of all. He also said that whilst
    some of the people on the shore were busy doing their own pleaseures
    there were some who called out to God for Him to draw closer, not
    realising that the voice of God was with the people who were drowning
    in the sea.
    
    Love
    Ben

      Real good story.
    
      My first thought is Jesus' rebuke to Ephesus where he says the
      thing He has against them is that they lost their first love.
      It seems we sometimes lose sight of our first love.
    
    						Tony

    Tony, in revelation Jesus accuses a church of having lost its first
    love, I never reconciled that to Ephesus. Is that to what you are
    referring?
    

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love..." 
	- was addressed to the church at Ephesus.
							Revelation 2:4 

    How do you know?

    I realize that.... but what is the global application? :-)  uh duh.
    
    I mean does that mean that only the Ephesians have this condition in
    the last days?  

You might want to check the Greek to be sure whether that should be
"first love" or "love you had at first".

If the latter, then it is an admonition against the church for not
exhibiting charity, as it had at first.

The latter is the translation which is consistent with the next verse,
admonishing them to return to these first works.

This is one of the strongest admonitions in the bible for the Church
to do good works -- specifically works of charity -- or risk serious
consequences.

/john

Hi John,

I read your entry, but can't access it again, though the note still 
reports 10 replies.  I don't have greek references with me, but the cross 
references in the Bible I have here (which are based on the original text) 
point back to Jeremiah 2:2 and Matthew 24:12, which both refer to the 
state of heart, and cooling love.

'....the love of most will grow cold'  Matthew 24:12

'...I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me..' 
								Jeremiah 2:2

							Andrew

I don't know why you can't read it.

You say your cross references are based on the original text.  Wow!

I think the context provided by verses 1-5 is significant, and makes
it clear that the complaint against the Church at Ephesus is that it
had abandoned its first love -- works of charity, and is being called
back to repent and resume those works of love.

	"Repent, and do the first works".

/john

Hi John,

The works of verse 5 are a result of the love of verse 4.  If the love
isn't the motivating force, the works are empty.  ie - the 'repent' comes
first, and the works result.  It was the 'love' of verse 4 I was referring
to, and giving you the basis for that interpretation - no need to be
impressed by the standard method of referencing! 

								Andrew

But you do agree that verse 5 is an admonishment to do works of charity, right?

/john

    When I first read the story the the meaning that was revealed to me was
    how the Christian Church has divided into soo many different
    orginizations with each one thinking they have the right recipe for
    assured salvation. Thus each group does not talk to the other due to
    their pride and the body is broken. As Paul tells us the members of the
    body are all connected and must work together. The story tells me that
    Satan has worked to divide the church so that there is no unity
    because each member is focused on itself and not on the mission that
    God directed us to go fourth and preach the Gospel to all nations.
    We all as Christians need to work together against the forces of evil
    rather than be focused on docturnal differences or the Body will remain
    broken. We have to take the first step to be united against that which
    is trying to destroy the the body and work together to address the
    social issues that continue to decay and pollute the world that God has
    given over into our care. When we go to vote for new leaders do we vote
    for a Godly person? Do we work together to put Godly people into
    office? Do we complain that there is no one worth voting for to make
    a difference? If we work together we make a difference. The question is
    how do we get started after all these years and all the water that has
    passed under the bridge? Can the body of Christ come together to defeat 
    the evils that are killing our children, polluting their minds, or do
    we just roll over and accept what is politically correct? It is our
    choice. Or do we just move down the coast to another comfort zone when
    God places before us the challange to do what He expects of us.
    Just my opinion, so I will stop rambling.....
    
    God Bless,
    
    Bob   

    What is the first works of the New Testament Church?  What was Jesus
    commandment to the believers left behind.  I guess it all depends on
    what you consider the "Great[est] commission".  That which saves souls,
    or feeds mouths??????????

Don't forget that Jesus never condemned anyone because they didn't evangelize,
but he certainly said that those who did not feed the poor, visit the
prisoners, and take care of the sick would be condemned.

And that is the condemnation in Rev. 2:1-5; failure to do charitable works.
Verses 1-3 commend Ephesus for adherence to doctrine and rejection of
false teaching, but verses 4-5 are an admonition to do works of love.

Remember that the term "Great Commission" is not a scriptural one, but
a tradition of men.  There is no evidence from Scripture that Jesus
regarded this as the greatest commission or even a great commission.

/john

John, whether you parse it as "first love" or "love you had at first," it's
still talking about *Love* - agape love, unconditional love, self-sacrificing
love.  It's not talking about works.

True agape love results in works of charity, which is what Andrew was saying.
But I think that to interpret this as a call to works misses the entire point
of what Christ said.

Paul

Is the Greek word agape?

/john

    Ezekiel 3:18
    
    When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest
    him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to
    save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his 
    blood will I require at thine hand. 
    

Verse 5 says to repent, and do the first works, not using the word agape. 
Doing the first works again is the result of repentance.

What Christ has against them is not that they left the first works.  It is
that they left their first love (verse 4) and that DOES use the word agape.

That they have left their first love is evidenced by their no longer doing
the first works.  Doing the first works won't get their first love back.  But
getting their first love back WILL get their first works back.

Love (grace) and works go hand in hand.  But love always has to come first,
and the works follow.

Works don't generate love - you can do good works out of a wrong spirit and
it avails nothing.

Love DOES generate action - if there are no works evident, then there is a
lack of love.

Christ's repeated admonitions that those who do not have visible actions will
be condemned does not imply that the actions buy our way into His good
graces.  It is simply a statement of fact, stating that if you really know
him then actions will necessarily follow.

It's along the lines of looking at a pile of sticks and saying "If there is
no light nor ash generated, then the sticks are not on fire."  The things
mentioned will always be there if there is fire, but you can't get fire by
supplying those things.  You can shine floodlights on the sticks and they are
not on fire, you can cover them with ashes and they are not on fire.

But if they are on fire, there will be light and ash generated, every time.

Jesus is saying here, in effect "You're not on fire any more!  Now turn
around and get on fire again and let's see a little light from this pile of
sticks!"

Paul

This reply is from Eric Ewanco:

> Love (grace) and works go hand in hand.  But love always has to come
> first, and the works follow.

> Works don't generate love - you can do good works out of a wrong spirit
> and it avails nothing.

> Love DOES generate action - if there are no works evident, then there is
> a lack of love.

As near as I can tell we are in violent agreement.  Nobody argues that
works alone merit salvation.  The question is whether faith which is
insufficient to bear fruit in love and good deeds has any saving power.

Nobody merits salvation on the basis of their works, but people can
merit damnation on the basis of their lack of works (or their lack of
faith).

# __   __                    Eric Ewanco 
# IC | XC                 eje@world.std.com
# ---+---           Software Engineer, Xyplex Inc.
# NI | KA                  Littleton, Mass.

    How do you define faith?  Its a love word too.
    Faith is knowing and believing in His essence. 
    His essence is agape.                         

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of 
things not seen. 






 

      re: .23
    
      Hi Jill,
    
        What do you think of the idea that true faith is not motivation-
        neutral?
    
        Important, no?
    
    							Tony

      Hi,
    
        It seems like there is strong agreement with the Ephesus account,
        but perhaps not complete agreement on *emphasis*.
    
        Perhaps, going about other parts of the Bible would fill in on
        emphasis.  Is it the faith?  Or the works which follow?
    
        For examples...
    
        When Nicodemus snuck out to talk to Jesus, Jesus could have handed
        him reems of all the bad things Israel was up to.  Instead he says,
        "You've got to see Me lifted up for you, just like that snake Moses
        lifted up."
    
        When Paul prays in Ephesians, he prays that we COMPREHEND something.
        Agape - and then we'll be filled with all the fulness of God. 
        (Surely the works will follow!)
    
        When Jesus prayed in John 17, He prayed that they be sanctified by
        His word.
    
        When Jesus talked to the woman at the well, He tells her she needs
        living water.
    
        I think Ephesus says the same thing.  We need that 'faith-connection'
        with God.  If we really have it, works will be manifested.
    
        "To him who works not, but believes on Him who justifies the
         ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  (Rom 4:5)
    
    							Tony
    

    I believe that the first love of the church is not works, but that of
    converting souls to Christ.
    
    

Rev 2:4 "first love" is <protos> <agape>.  <Protos> occurs in 95 times in
89 verses, and is usually (75 times) translated "first."  Our English word
"prototype" is an example of a word derived from the Greek.

    What does this mean Garth?

>    I believe that the first love of the church is not works, but that of
>    converting souls to Christ.

Actually, I believe that our first love is neither of these.  Our first love
is Jesus.  He Himself, relationship with Him, committment to Him, devotion to
Him, bondslaves in His service.

If we give ourselves entirely into devotion to Christ, then He'll call us out
into the world to act in His name.  We simply won't be able to help
ourselves, there will be nothing else we would rather do or which we even
could really do.

If our first love is works, or converting souls, or anything other than Jesus
Himself, eventually we'll burn out, wither and die.  It's epidemic in
American ministry.  You see someone like a Mother Theresa who is totally sold
out and devoted to Christ, and because of THAT she ministers to the poor the
way she does.  She's been doing it non-stop for decades with no sign of
burnout, because she has her eyes on Christ first.

Helping the poor is a tremendously worthy cause, but if Mother Theresa had
turned to the poor for that reason, and not because she was devoted to Jesus,
she would have burned out decades ago.

Paul

    amen

    Paul... yes I understand that the order of things is God first.  But
    this was a congregational commitment that was lost.  The "first love"
    or "first works" is not charity but "Go into the world and make
    disciples of Christ".  Which is motivated by having our priorities
    right to begin with, which is loving God first.
    

 I tend to agree with Nancy.   There are hundreds of churches in the world
 today that are essentially dead.  Why?  Because they are not carrying out
 the commission that left us by Jesus..spreading the gospel.  Churches that
 are active and growing and reaching out to the lost are strong and loving
 churches.  When that stops, and people are no longer being saved, and the
 gospel is no longer being preached, churches begin to die.  




 Jim

      I'm with Saul, er Paul!!!   ;-)
    
      I think Ephesus must have let their corporate eyes just a tad
      off of Jesus.
    
    						Tony

Consider the following:

 1) First love

    - "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent
       His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
       Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent
       His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  Beloved, if God so loved
       us, we ought also to love one another." (1Jn 4:9-11, KJV)

    - "We love Him, because He first loved us.  If a man say, I love God, and
       hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother
       whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?  And this
       commandment have we from Him, That he who loveth God love his brother
       also." (1Jn 4:19-21, KJV)

 2) First works

    - "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him,
       'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy
       soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.
       And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
       thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'"
      (Mt 22:36-40, KJV)

    - "Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works
       of God?  Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God,
       that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'" (Jn 6:28,29, KJV)

    - "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jn 14:15, KJV)

    - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
       Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for
       his friends.  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you...
       These things I command you, that ye love one another." (Jn 15:12-17,
      KJV)

 3) Prototype link

    - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
       whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
       For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
       the world through Him might be saved." (Jn 3:16,17, KJV)

 4) Summary

    - "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and
       of Jesus our Lord, according as His divine power hath given unto us all
       things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of
       Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us
       exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be
       partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in
       the world through lust.  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to
       your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance;
       and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness
       brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.  For if these
       things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be
       barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  But he
       that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath
       forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  Wherefore the rather,
       brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if
       ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be
       ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord
       and Saviour Jesus Christ.  Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you
       always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be
       established in the present truth." (2Pe 1:2-12, KJV)

To the church of Ephesus Jesus said, "I know thy WORKS, and thy LABOUR, and thy
PATIENCE..." (Re 2:2a)

Interesting cross reference: Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit said to the
Thessalonians, "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you
in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your WORK of faith, and LABOUR of
love, and PATIENCE of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and
our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." (1Th 1:2-4, KJV)

One might conclude that insight could be gained from reading both Ephesians and
1 & 2 Thessalonians.  I found benefit in considering Revelation 2:1-7 in light
of the referenced books, and I would encourage you to do the same.

Questions we might ask ourselves:

 - Compare the motivation of my heart to that of God's:  Am I more inclined to
   "save" or to "condemn"?  Am I more interested in giving than getting?
 - I've been delivered FROM the law of sin and death and delivered TO holiness
   and eternal life.  Is sin being put aside and righteousness being put on in
   my life?  Would those around me say that my knowledge of Jesus really is
   making a difference in my life, even to their benefit?

Something to remember:  The greatest joy of love is love returned, whereas the
                        greatest pain of love is to not be trusted.

So, if Jesus were to say, "I have somewhat against you, because you have left
your first love", where might the problem be?

By the way, Jill2, faith to me has much more to do with volition than credulity.
I view faith as choosing to act as if what God says is true versus choosing to
wait until I have no doubt.

/Wayne

From Eric Ewanco

> Actually, I believe that our first love is neither of these.  Our first
> love is Jesus.  He Himself, relationship with Him, committment to Him,
> devotion to Him, bondslaves in His service.

> If we give ourselves entirely into devotion to Christ, then He'll call
> us out into the world to act in His name.  We simply won't be able to
> help ourselves, there will be nothing else we would rather do or which
> we even could really do.

Yes, yes, yes yes YES!

St. Paul said in Galatians that "For in Christ Jesus, neither
circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.  The only thing that
counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Gal 5:6)

When the Reformers, in particular Luther, talked about faith, they
defined it as a trust in God's promises; and they saw justification as a
legal act by which the sinner is acquitted of his guilt.

The problem is the love is entirely left out of the picture.  By this
definition I can just as well have "faith" that the Federal Government
will tax me as I can have "faith" that Jesus will "acquit me of my
guilt" if I ask him.  Justification is then nothing more than a legal
transaction:  I believe Jesus can take away my sins (just as much as I
believe the government can tax), and by putting my trust in that
promise, I can have eternal life, but I need not love Jesus any more
than I need love the federal government: I just have to trust him.

This is the fatal flaw with the faith alone argument, because arguing
that we are saved by faith alone excludes not only works, but love.  It
implies that we can be saved without loving God.  But that is not what
Paul taught.

But in reality justification is a covenant of divine sonship which God
extends to us:  he pours out into us his Divine Life and transforms us,
making us "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) and true
children of God by grace.  Sin brought separation from God and death;
justification brings union with God and divine life which purges us of
our sins.  We enter into a covenant relationship of love with God: and
love between the Father and his children, with the divine life which He
imparts to His Bride the Church, conceives and bears fruit, which
include the good deeds to which God has prepared us to do.  It is "fruit
worthy of repentance."  It is a sign that we are grafted into the Tree
of Life, for we know a tree by its fruit.

God's sovereign grace comes first.  Grace moves us to faith, which is
nonetheless itself a gift of God.  Faith moves us to love, which bears
fruit in obedience to the commandments and deeds of charity.  The good
works are always fruits of faith, and while they do not contribute to
our initial justification, they do contribute to our sanctification.

But he who does not persevere in love cannot be saved, no matter what
faith he may claim to have.  1 John 3:14: "We know that we have passed
from death to life, because we love our brothers.  Anyone who does not
love remains in death.  Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and
you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is how we know
what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to
lay down our lives for our brothers.  If anyone has material possessions
and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of
God be in him?  Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but
with actions and in truth."  

1 John 2:3: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys His word, God's love is
truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims
to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  

1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the
children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child
of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."


# __   __                    Eric Ewanco 
# IC | XC                 eje@world.std.com
# ---+---           Software Engineer, Xyplex Inc.
# NI | KA                  Littleton, Mass.

    And how does love manifest itself?  What did God do with his love?

    A couple more questions:
    
     1) What was Mary's "good work" (KJV) in Mark 14:3-9?
    
     2) What was the "good part" (KJV) chosen by Mary in Luke 10:38-42?
    
    RE: .37
    
    Hi, Nancy.  Whose answer did you not like? :-)
    
    The Word of God clearly reveals God's heart:  He died that we might
    live!  "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was
    lost." (Luke 19:10, KJV)

RE: <<< Note 821.35 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

>>Questions we might ask ourselves:
>>
>> - Compare the motivation of my heart to that of God's:  Am I more inclined to
>>   "save" or to "condemn"?  Am I more interested in giving than getting?
>> - I've been delivered FROM the law of sin and death and delivered TO holiness
>>   and eternal life.  Is sin being put aside and righteousness being put on in
>>   my life?  Would those around me say that my knowledge of Jesus really is
>>   making a difference in my life, even to their benefit?

	Amen.

>>I view faith as choosing to act as if what God says is true versus choosing to
>>wait until I have no doubt.

	Amen, Wayne!
	

    I have noticed mention of an "on-line Bible".
    Is this on the system, and can it be accessed by everyone?
    Tank you for the info, and interesting dialogue.
    
    
    p.j.

      Hi Eric,
    
        How can *faith only* exclude God's love?  Galatians 5:6
        says that faith works by God's love.  It seemed like your
        entry assumed that true faith is motivation-neutral.
    
        What if true faith is not motivation-neutral, but has as
        its motivation, God's love?  If faith is, in part, an 
        appreciation of the love of God, then its motivation is
        "The love of Christ constraineth us" (2 Corin 5:14).
    
        The underlying motivation of true faith is God's love.  It
        is not reward or to be spared from condemnation.  Paul 
        (Rom. 9:3) and Moses (Exodus 32:32) demonstrate this.
    
        Faith is a selfless response to God's love for you and any
        good work is a result of faith and true faith cannot but
        help to produce good works.
    
        I agree with you that no 'legal thing' took place in heaven.
        The work of redemption is 100% the making right of the human
        heart.
    
    						Tony

I'm with you, Eric.

What you describe about faith is exactly the same as what happened with
works- for many it has reached the exact same kind of dead-end that is
reached when the 'first love' is lost.

In the early days of the church, there was such total faith in the Lord and
such love that 'good works' just flowed naturally.  All three flowed together
naturally.

By the time of the reformation, the church had lost much of that original
love, and much of the faith, and still kept a focus on works, to the point
that 'indulgences' could be bought.  The reformers said - quite rightly -
that good works do not buy our way into heaven.  As they tried to bring back
faith and grace and bring perspective into better balance, they also were
re-ignited by love.  But as so often happens in human history, they were so
focused *against* works that they got off track on the other side.  As you
note, Eric, many today view 'saved by faith' as a sort of single transaction
that then can be almost forgotten about.  "I've got my ticket" to heaven, the
reasoning goes, "so I can just put the ticket away in a drawer until I need
it."  This kind of 'faith' without love is every bit as empty as 'works'
without love.

Paul says that if you don't have love, you have nothing at all.  Everything
else you might do or accomplish is worthless dung if you don't have love. 
Whether you have faith-dung or works-dung doesn't really matter all that much.

The "Shema," which the Jews have said daily for millenia, does not read "You
shall do the works of the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and
strength."  Nor does it read "You shall have faith in the Lord your God with
all your heart and mind and strength."

It reads:  "You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and
strength."

Let us never forget it.

Paul

From Eric Ewanco

re 821.41 

> How can *faith only* exclude God's love?  Galatians 5:6  says that faith
> works by God's love.

My NIV gives for 5:6, "The only thing that counts is faith expressing
itself through love."  In other words, faith alone is insufficient, it
must be accompanied by love. (RSV: "For in Christ Jesus neither
circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working
through love."; NASB: "For in *Christ Jesus *neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision means anything, but *faith working through love."; KJV
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor
uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.")  (It's interesting
the note the subtle bias in the NIV:  Every other translation uses the
verb "work", but the NIV says "expressing itself.")

My argument was that *faith only* excludes God's love only in the
Reformation definition of faith as trusting in God's mercy (I believe
this is called fiduary faith), which was part of the juridical view of
justification that the Reformers had.

The definition of faith is a difficult matter.  As true as it is, it is
really insufficient to define faith as "being sure of what we hope for
and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1).  I would agree with
you that "true faith" must be accompanied by love, yet this definition
of faith does not explicitly include love, and Gal 5:6 certainly seems
to regard faith and love as distinct.

The only caution I wish to express is the very same counterassertion
made by the Council of Trent against the Reformers:  It is not works
apart from faith that saves, nor is it faith apart from love, nor is it
even faith and works which saves, but only faith working through love. 
In our zeal against the works of the law, we must never go so far as to
pit faith against love, nor can we forget that we cannot truly love God
unless we obey his commandments (1 John 2:3, 3:10-24; John 14:15-21),
understanding of course that these commandments are not the dead works
of the Mosaic law which Paul condemned in Romans and Galatians, but
works of love for God and neighbor, such as feeding the hungry, taking
care of the sick, and clothing the naked (cf. Matt. 25:31).  You will
find no condemnation of _these_ works by Paul, just as you will find no
exortations to obedience to the Mosaic law in the Gospels.

Eric
eje@world.std.com

Titus 3:5-7
      Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his
 mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy
 Ghost;
 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to
 the hope of eternal life.
    
    {cf. Ephesians 2:8-9 as well}

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not
       from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 
    9  not by works, so that no one can boast. 
    10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good
       works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    
    Look at verse 10
    Even the works we do come from God, not from us.
    
    Jill2

 Amen..

Yup.

    fruit has nothing to do with salvation.

    I have a tendancy to believe that if one has truly given their lives
    over to the Lord, they will bear fruit.  Does that mean someone can
    accept Christ and not live for him?  Yes.  Does it mean that person
    will still go to heaven?  Yes.  Does that mean there is no consequence
    to this person's greed of Christ?  No.  There are consequences.

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 522.94                Faith without works is dead                  94 of 96
COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                     100 lines  26-JUL-1994 09:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the last little bit of a Peter Kreeft article in the latest "New
Oxford Review" -- a simulated discussion between C.S. Lewis, Martin Luther,
and Thomas Aquinas:

Lewis: Gentlemen, I am impressed by both your arguments, but I have heard
    most of them before, and I am no closer to certainty now.  I did not
    mention any of these arguments in my books because I did not want to
    set Scripture against Church, or Protestant against Catholic, for I
    have a high view of all four.
Aquinas: A high view of both Scripture and Church sounds more Catholic
    than Protestant.
Luther: But Brother Jack includes only Protestant -- that is, scriptural
    -- teachings in his book "Mere Christianity".  So "mere Christianity"
    is just another name for Protestant Christianity.
Lewis: I do not agree with either of you there.  "Mere Christianity" is
    not more Catholic than Protestant, nor is it more Protestant than
    Catholic.  It is the common core.
Luther: The common core of Christianity?
Lewis: Yes.
Luther: And Christianity tells us essentially about our sin and Christ's
    salvation, does it not?
Lewis: Yes.
Luther: Then "mere Christianity" tells us what we must do to be saved?
Lewis: Yes.
Luther: So if Protestants and Catholics disagree on how to be saved, there
    is no common core, no common "mere Christianity."
Lewis: That seems to follow.
Aquinas: It seems we now come to the heart of our question about "mere
    Christianity."
Luther: Indeed we have, and the question before us is only the single most
    momentous question a man can ask in this world: "What must I do to be
    saved?" And the clear and simple answer of Scripture is: "Believe on
    the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
Aquinas: And I accept that.  Do you also accept that good works are a
    necessary fruit of faith?
Luther: I do.
Aquinas: Then we agree on two essential points.
Luther: But I do not agree that these good works contribute one iota to
    our salvation.  It is faith _alone_ that saves us.
Aquinas: But you admit that the good works are at least an index of faith,
    like a grade in a course, do you not?
Luther: But the grade is not the _cause_ of passing the course.  It is only
    the effect.
Aquinas: That is so.  But it _is_ a part of the whole process of education.
    The fruit is part of the whole process of a plant's growth, and so good
    works are part of the whole process of salvation.
Luther: Not salvation.  Not justification.  Only sanctification.
Aquinas: You admit, then, at least, that though a man can be justified by
    faith alone, he is not sanctified by faith alone, but by works as well?
Luther: He is sanctified by his faith, too.
Aquinas: Is this a faith that works?  Does not this faith lead to good works
    as surely as the seed leads to the flower, if it is truly alive?
Luther: That is true.
Aquinas: So faith _works_.  We both agree about that.  I think we disagree
    about _how_ it works.  But that is theology.  _That_ it works is religion.
    We have the same religion, even if different theologies.
Luther: I am not sure I accept your anlysis of our differences.  Let me try
    to understand.  How do you see our deepest differences in theology?
Aquinas: In two places.  First, the link between faith and salvation.  Second,
    the link between faith and works.  You taught a "federal theology": that
    the link between faith and salvation was God's legal decree.  I taught
    that there is an ontological link, that faith and baptism actually let
    God's very life into our souls, as turning on a faucet lets water flow.
Luther: That is correct.  I was a Nominalist, and suspicious of such
    metaphysics.
Aquinas: And the second link, between faith and good works, was for you our
    gratitude for being saved.  But for me it is ontological again: The same
    supernatural life we let in by faith, we let out by good works.
Luther: Metaphysics again!
Aquinas: But surely the objective reality of the life and grace of God is a
    surer basis for a connection than the subjective feeling and response
    of man?  _That_ sounds more like humanism than Christianity!
Luther: That is no more humanistic than your belief that our faith causes
    Christ's life to enter us.  I say it is rather the reverse: the object
    of our faith, Christ, is the cause of our act of faith.
Aquinas: I affirm that, too.  That is why I agree with your "sola gratia."
    Our very free will and its choice to accept God's grace is itself grace:
    both created by grace and healed and inspired by grace.  One of the
    Church's greatest saints said with her dying breath: "Everything is
    grace."  It is God's grace that gives us Christ.  It is Christ who
    gives us the Spirit.  It is the Spirit who gives us supernatural life
    in our souls.  It is this life that produces our faith.  Finally, this
    faith creates its own good works as a good tree bears good fruit.  It
    is all one divine chain, with six golden links, laden end to end with
    love.  Love begins it, as the motive for grace.  And the works of love
    end it.  When we do the works of love, that is God doing them in us
    through this golden chain.  "God is love, and he who lives in love,
    lives in God and God in him" -- _that_ concrete reality is "mere
    Christianity." But...

At this point the conversation was suddenly interrupted.  All three men were
beginning to smile when two things happened simultaneously.  First, a radio
announced an apocalyptic event from America: The Boston Red Sox had won the
World Series.  Second, at this announcement the sky rolled apart like a
scroll and all three men were raptured to Heaven.  As they ascended, they
heard a Charlton Heston-like voice muttering something about "the clearest
apocalyptic sign I ever gave them."

Perhaps we should get on with our work and complete the discussion they began,
before it's too late.

| <<< Note 821.49 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| fruit has nothing to do with salvation.

	according to some...... but I suppose one can find the Lord, sit on
their butt, not lend a hand with anything, never let Him use them, and get into
Heaven. Fruit does have a part in all this..... but I believe it's where the
fruit is coming from that matters.


Glen

      I have come to believe that justification = "to be made
      righteous" = sanctification.  They are all the same thing.
    
      And its grace that transforms the heart.  Faith is our
      permission of God's grace to perform its work.
    
      It is the blood of the cross that saves (sanctifies).  John
      6:53,63 equates blood to word and many scriptures show us 
      that it is the word that makes the heart righteous.
    
    						Tony

>	according to some...... but I suppose one can find the Lord, sit on
>their butt, not lend a hand with anything, never let Him use them, and get into
>Heaven. Fruit does have a part in all this..... but I believe it's where the
>fruit is coming from that matters.
    
    Glen, a friend at church lost his father to a heart attack on Sunday
    night.  He had just been saved 3 days before (Thursday night).  He
    never had a chance to serve the Lord and show fruit, but he's still in
    the throne room of God as I type.
    
    Mike

    
    Mike...
    
    Just another example of how He comes to our rescue.  He is the
    true Lifesaver!
    
    Pam

>    Our very free will and its choice to accept God's grace is itself grace:
>    both created by grace and healed and inspired by grace.  One of the
>    Church's greatest saints said with her dying breath: "Everything is
>    grace."  It is God's grace that gives us Christ.  It is Christ who
>    gives us the Spirit.  It is the Spirit who gives us supernatural life
>    in our souls.  It is this life that produces our faith.  Finally, this
>    faith creates its own good works as a good tree bears good fruit.  It
>    is all one divine chain, with six golden links, laden end to end with
>    love.  Love begins it, as the motive for grace.  And the works of love
>    end it.  When we do the works of love, that is God doing them in us
>    through this golden chain.  "God is love, and he who lives in love,
>    lives in God and God in him" -- _that_ concrete reality is "mere
>    Christianity." But...
    
    I pretty much agree with this, but I see it more as building blocks
    than a chain.  Everything is God's grace and He spiritually builds us
    up in the whole process from salvation to sanctification.  There is 
    nothing we can do to be saved, it's all Him.  They are only linked in
    the sense that it's driven by God's grace: salvation must come first 
    and you can't grow or go to Heaven without it.
    
    Mike