Conference yukon::christian_v7

 I'll confess to owning a  TV/VCR and I have cable.  Each day I grow more and
 more weary of the thing, especially so at each new TV season when I see 
 the new programs get more and more disgusting (I don't watch them, mind you,
 but just the ads are enough).  I subscribe to the Amercian Family Association
 Journal, and each month they describe some of the stuff that is broadcast
 into the homes of America.


 Each week, I get closer and closer to tossing the thing out, and I believe
 that once baseball season is over, out it will go.  At least, the cable will.
 I enjoy renting Christian videotapes/movies to watch.



 Jim

When we first got married, we didn't have a TV.  We borrowed an old one from
my wife's parents one summer to watch the Olympics, but then we gave it back.

When we had kids, we had trouble getting babysitters (What!? No TV?), and
there were *some* shows that are helpful for them, so we got a TV, but we
quite intentionally never put in cable.  Also, we have a videocamera so we
wanted somewhere to see the movies we took.

At this point, I would rather we'd never gotten one.  We put it away every
summer and still the kids are glued to it when they have the chance - which
is as seldom as I can manage.  My wife's not as against it as I, otherwise
I'd just be rid of the thing.

I think Tony's setup, with a TV for VCR only, is what I'd most prefer. 
Perhaps with another VCR hooked to an antenna, so that on the rare times that
there is something good on I can tape it for later viewing.  Prevents the
kids (or me, in weaker moments) from just turning it on and slumming through
the channels.

Of the stuff that's on the air (never mind cable), while I haven't tried to
figure exact percentages, my take is:

<5%	Helpful, useful, informational.
10-30%	Not particularly useful, but not particularly harmful either
>65%	Harmful in some fashion, from subtle encouragement of marginal
	viewpoints on the world, to downright awful.

For the 5%, why bother?

Paul

      Hi Tony C,
    
        Boy, with a signoff like TonyC, maybe you oughta be watching
        baseball!!!   ;-)
    
        TV sux.
    
        Maybe not a nice word, but it really does.  My wife watches
        it so we still have one, but if we are changed by beholding,
        who in their right mind would choose to behold TV?
    
    						Tony

	It is tough these days, and getting tougher, to keep a clean house
	with a television in it.  "%^)

	When the TV is gone, it sure does leave a lot more time to lead the
	family in prayer and bible study, as well as more secular
	interactions, like playing hide-and-seek.

	Lifestyle issues are always difficult to confront, but applying
	God's standard to them puts them in perspective.  For example, what
	would you have to change in your house and in what you are doing
	if the Creator of the Universe were to return today and come to
	your home?  Would he find you doing, watching, hearing, thinking?

	Grace and peace to you all,

		TonyC
		

        Wow!  From the previous replies, it looks like commercial (and even
        publican) TV is in trouble with Christians!  It's comforting to
        know there are others out there that feel the same way as I about
        that thing.

	Amen to replies from Jim, Paul, and Tony!

	TonyC (not Conigliaro  =:-> )

 One read of the AFA Journal which prints capsule reviews of the popular 
 shows on TV is enough to send one into deep depression.  One can see
 just how sick we as a society are becoming.




 Jim

Next time you sit down to watch a TV program, ask yourself:

	"If Jesus were here today, would he enjoy sitting and watching this
	TV program with me?"

      There is a text of scripture I like calling the pH test because
      its in Phillipians and pH testing in chemistry seems to be a
      rough analogy...
    
      Phillipians 4:8
      Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things 
      are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure,
      whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report,
      if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy
      -- meditate on these things.
    
      WOW!  What a rebuke to my soul!!
    
    						Tony

    <---  I'm not sure what Jesus would think about Star Trek- Deep Space 9
    or TT:TNG, football, baseball or M*A*S*H reruns.  8^)
    
    I'm rather a TV junkie, since I live alone and am somewhat a hermit. 
    Luckily, I make sure that I do not get home early evening so I can't sit
    in front of the TV for hours and hours.  After taekwondo, the gym,
    bowling night, laundry night, etc...I don't have hours and hours to
    waste in front of it.  Saturdays I watch a couple cartoons and that's
    it for the day.
    
    I refuse to watch most FOX programming- which is mostly
    dysfunctionalism portrayed as normal life, as well as the dysfunctional
    movie of the week, etc. (has anyone else noticed a trend here on sunday
    night movies?  egads!)  I've found that the big three networks aren't
    much better, lately, either.  
    
    With the new season coming up (and the inevitable commercials that show
    what we have to look forward to), it looks like I'll be either using
    the VCR more or listening to my stereo system more.  There's very
    little worth watching now, and it looks like there will be even less
    this next season besides my usual diet of science fiction.
    
    I do watch the 700 Club on occation and even caught a Sunday evening
    service by Pastor Havert (or something like that, he's on radio, too)
    last night, which I found very useful to me.  Not all tv is bad.
    
    As far as throwing out my tv...well, I haven't paid it off yet.  8^) 
    (I bought a big tube for my home theater set-up.)  Besides, I'd need
    some help lifting it, it's quite heavy (and bulky).  8^)
    
    
    -steve  

 Check and see if the "Worship Channel" is available in your area.  It's 
 on our cable system, but is broadcast in my area on a VHF station beginning
 at 9PM each night.  They have a call in program and the host provides input
 from Scripture and they play some wonderful praise music.



 Jim

    All of these replies sound so good on the surface but there is a bit
    more to it than meets the eye.  The TV itself is not evil.  It is no
    more evil than your VCR or toaster.  With Cable, you can pull in some
    wonderful channels about weather, history, science, lots of nature
    shows, several religious channels [The "Worship Channel" is very nice].
    You can watch TV at any time of the day or night and not be inundated
    by smut and filth, but you can feed your mind on nice things and
    educational things.  My nephew and I watched frogs being born the other
    day on TV and he was fascinated!  
    
    Also, and I'm sure this goes without saying, the elderly who, like my
    grandmother, have a hard time getting around but still have a very
    active mind need some kind of contact with the outside world and she
    enjoys her TV very much.  She also has plenty of time to read the
    Bible or anything else she wants to read.  
    
    TV, like ANYTHING else, can be used for good and not evil.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet Brown
    

 Thanks, Janet..good points.  I do love watching Nature programs, even though
 they explain to us how various things evolved.  It's watching the complexity
 of nature and all of the interdependancies that remind me of the wonder
 of God's creation.



 Jim

Hi,

We have a television, but recognise that much of what's on is subversive;
of the world.  I tend to watch the news, if I'm around at 10.00 p.m., but
I'm trying to cut down on that.  My lads watch the football, and my wife 
watches the gardening programs.  Though we wouldn't consider these
essentials - anything else would take precedence (About Friday, Jeremy
called me for putting on the news, because it inhibitted family
communication - and I guess he was right!). 

Actually we only have a television because Ros' parents gave it to us one
Christmas (first a black and white, then some years back they gave us a
colour one, I suspect because they didn't like looking at b&w when they 
were with us!)

However, in the UK (and I must stress that my input relates to the UK),
most programs are very heavily coloured by worldly attitudes and opinions -
even nature programs are totally biased towards evolution - 'isn't nature
wonderful' is as far as it gets from explicit references to the evolution
concept, as if there were an inanimate force instead of a Designer God. 

The idea of television may not be bad in itself - but for me, the jury is
still out on that.  I don't think its 'entertainment' is healthy mentally
(one way communication without the opportunity of dialogue with people one
trusts), or physically (encouraging sustained periods of physical
inactivity, while what the cathode ray tube does to the eyes is highly
questionable), let alone the interruption of the personal thought and
interaction which would otherwise take place....

And that's before you ever get to the program content.

In fact, even worship programs are no substitute for the real thing 
'forsake not the gathering of yourselves together'...  I heard a tape on
evangelism recently, where the teenager of the family said he's just watch
the service on television.  His mother responded that this was ok so long
as for lunch he'd be satisfied with the MacDonalds adverts...  Apologies if
I entered this before!

But beyond these - when we spend time with the television, we are
entrusting ourselves to the manipulation of those who control the media.  
Their opinions and attitudes are going to dominate what is expressed, and 
we need to ensure that we spend at least time-for-time in the Word, to get 
a balanced input.

						God bless
								Andrew

Lately, I've developed a theory that goes like this:

Many people seem to operate from the idea that people
are basically good, and that everything will turn out 
alright.  Where did they get that idea?

I think, from TV.  Because a story has to neatly fit into
30 (actually 20) or 60 (40) minutes, and has to wrap up 
neatly so that people will like a show, TV has developed
a format that shows problems, and  a solution, with 
(generally) the problems being worked out by the  end
of the show.  No complexity, no loose ends, and no depth.
Also, so that people will like a show, people in the shows
seem to be good at bottom.  Nobody is truly mean or 
evil.  Nobody is in depression (who would watch that). 

So, I think we all grew up (if we watched even some TV) with 
at least a suspicion that people are basically good, and 
that things will work out in the end.   Both of which are 
theologically and existentially incorrect.   (Unless you know 
Christ, which people on TV don't seem to).

This is different from TV-less generations, who read books, 
or saw movies, or (heaven forbid) observed real people living
their lives.  

There you have it.  I think it's an interesting thought..  No charge.

Don Randall
Seattle

I'm with you, Don.

Paul

 I've often thought it would be great, though eventually would probably 
 lose it's luster, to have a TV program about everyday people and the
 lives they led before coming to Christ.  Maybe a weekly half hour
 program, on some Christian network (so far the Worship Channel seems
 to me to the most credible and doctrinally sound), about John Q. Public
 and a brief snapshot of his life PreChrist and then a brief snapshot of
 JQP getting on his feet and walking with the Lord.



 Jim

>Lately, I've developed a theory that goes like this:

>Many people seem to operate from the idea that people
>are basically good, and that everything will turn out 
>alright.  Where did they get that idea?

>I think, from TV.
    
    
    Actually  us liberals have been around for a lot longer than TV.
    
                                   patricia

    
    Can't help you with TV, Jim, but the program you mentioned has been on
    radio for years now -- "Unshackled", produced by the Chicago Mission.   

    I've met a couple of people who have had their testimonies on
    Unshackled, and have been as impressed with their testimonies in
    person.  

    I enjoy the announcer's deep, gravely voice, too -- reminds me much of
    pre-TV radio.  

    /John

 Hah!  Never heard it.





 Jim

	I never watched it, but didn't Pat Robertson's Family Channel have
a "Christian soap opera" called "Another Life"?  Maybe it would qualify?

Agreed.  The goodness of man has been around a 
long time.  Also the "god-ness" of man.  Sorry it's such
wishful thinking.....

TV does present a subversive and inaccurate world
view.  Sometimes blatant (Rosanne) sometimes very 
subtle.  Who would think that Archie Bunker would be
subversive in this way?  But, there was a racist throwback - someone
that symbolized the world that liberals desparately 
would want to change.  At bottom, though, he had a good 
heart.  In the real world, some people don't.  Some people
are just mean, racist, cynical...   But TV doesn't show them.

The implication is that at bottom, people are good.  They just
need more information, more leading, more ...  something.  It's 
a subtle message that weaves throughout our culture - it 
goes wherever TV goes (more hours per day on average than 
school for our kids).  

The message of Christ couldn't be more different.  Mean people
or "good" people are not "good" at bottom.  We're all in need 
of Christ's redemption because of our basic sin nature.   More 
information, more leadership, ....  nothing will change people but
an encounter with Christ.

- Don

    People either act out of Love or act out of their own pain.
    
    Love definately is the answer.
    
    And God is Love, just as Love is God.
    
    
                                  

 Amen, Don.





 Jim

RE: <<< Note 800.22 by NWD002::BAYLEY::Randall_do "Software:  Making Hardware Useful" >>>

>>nothing will change people but an encounter with Christ.

        Amen!!!!!  And they're not likely to have an encounter with Christ
        if the Christians are at home sitting around the telly.

        Spend the time you would normally watch TV in training your
        children, leading your family in prayer, in singing hymns and
        spiritual songs, in memorizing scripture.  How many kids can even
        recite the books of the Bible, let alone any scripture?  I believe
        there was a time when knowing all the books of the Bible was
        considered fundamental, pre-school knowledge.

	It's easy!  It's interactive!  Amaze your friends and relatives!

	"Ok, Little Suzy, repeat after me.  Psalm One"
		"Psalm One"

	"Blessed is the man.."
		"Blessed is the man.."

	"Who walketh not.."
		"Who walketh not.."

	"In the counsel of the ungodly."
		"In the counsel of the ungodly."

	Give your family an encounter with Christ by setting aside the
	silly distractions of this evil and perverse generation and
	seeking to impart to them the intimate knowledge of God and our
	Redeemer and His love and His Holiness and His Commandments,
	judgements, precepts, statutes, laws (*=GASP=*).

	Would that someone in my family had done that for me.
		

I picked up a new book recently, called "Songs of the Heart". It has some
general information on the Psalms, and then digs into a few representatives
more deeply. As I read it this morning, I learned some things that were new
for me, and a few other things were put very clearly in a way that I can
appreciate.

Something that pertains to this topic is what is meant by wisdom and foolish-
ness in the Bible.  From the book, "...in the Bible, folly is less a 
condition of intellectual inadequacy than a lack of discrimination and judge-
ment in the moral sphere -- the inability or unwillingness to to foresee or
consider the consequences of one's actions." I think that many (not all) TV
shows, movies, books, magazines, radio programs, etc. celebrate the folly of 
the world. 

Underlying the folly of the world is a practical atheism that says even if
there is a God, God is completely removed from the sphere of humankind & is
indifferent to human behavior. Much of the world does not believe there is a
moral God who makes moral demands on human beings and calls people to
account for violating them.

Leslie

	Taining your children for.........

      re: .22,.25
    
        EXCELLENT replies!
    
    						Thank You,
    
    						Tony

	Whoops.... that should have been, tRaining your kids for.......

    I have a small b&w portable that I keep under the table, it comes out
    occaissionally (if one of the other lodgers in my house didn't have a
    licence I woulddn't watch it). I find the stuff pupmed out of it is
    very damaging - even kids programmes (I was at my brothers the other
    day and the kids soaps all have a lot of sexual content and new age). I
    can understand the argument of housebound and old people having TV for
    company, but if we had a more caring society we wouldn't people
    suffering from lonliness. Wouldn't it be better for a housebound person
    if they were kept occupied by christians caring for them rather than a
    TV numbing their mind to their need for salvation?? 
    
    BTW I'm preaching to myself here - I really feel that christians should
    have a much more intense role in the community, but it starts with me
    and I haven't started yet!!!!
    
    Love
    Ben

RE: <<< Note 800.30 by REOELF::PRICEB "Deuteronomy 33:12" >>>

	Bless God!! Excellent reply, Ben.

        A good place to start is the local nursing home.  Bring your kids. 
        From my experience, the old folks love kids.  They're so cute and
        innocent.  8-)

	Blessed be the name of the Lord!

	TonyC
	

    	an articke in the paper I saw today said that some of the
    	highest concentration of violence is found in kids' cartoons.
    	The mentioned things like the x-men and ninja turtles.

	X-Men Rule! 

RE: <<< Note 800.33 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>>	X-Men Rule! 

	No, Christ rules!  

<-----very good! :-)

    
    Well, I'd have to say I agree with Janet.  There is good and bad in
    TV programming.  I wish I had cable to see what was happening on a
    global level, nature shows that display God's creation, and other 
    quality programming.  I have a choice to turn the dial or watch away.
    I do not watch a great deal of TV.  I tend to catch some at my mom's
    house because she's been sick and has the television on to watch all
    kinds of old movies, new shows, documentaries, gardening and fix-it
    shows. 
    
    I think we're all responsible for being good stewards of our time and
    money.  Does it impress God if you're being a good "steward" by not
    paying for cable, yet you don't tithe?  What could be sin for one 
    person (wasting my hours in front of the TV), might not be sin for 
    another (who sees a few hours over a week or two).  I don't think it's 
    fair to make a blanket statement that it's no good whatsoever.  I mean 
    is God impressed if you don't have a TV and instead play baseball where 
    you have the opportunity to rub shoulders with people, yet never spend 
    any time with him?  I think it's far to narrow to say isn't TV the great 
    evil and everyone should consider tossing it.  This is not to say that
    I don't respect those who have made that choice.  
    
    IMO
    Jilla

	Jill, great note! TV is a 2 fold subject. Both good and bad. To make a
blanket statement about tv takes away from the good it does. The good that has
to be coming from God.


Glen

I don't think anyone who has posted here, even TonyC, would disagree that
there is *some* good programming on TV.  While our perceptions of the ratios
differ, I think all are in agreement that there is some portion that is good
and useful, and some portion that is really horrible.  And I think that the
general perception is also that the really horrible is much more common than
the good and useful.

Some, like TonyC, have made the decision that there's not enough good stuff
to warrant having the horrible stuff even available.

Paul

RE: <<< Note 800.37 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

	Please re-read 800.25.  There are far better things to do with your
	time.  We should be "redeeming the time", not trashing it.

        Every hour spent being strobed at 60 Hz by a display of vulgar
        visual and aural patterns extolling the virtues of evolutionary and
        Marxist thought, promulgating the prurient platitudes of a
        hedonistic society, and catering to the salacious slavering of a
        wicked and perverse generation, is an hour less to dedicate to the
        training up of your children, the edification of the Body of
        Christ, the visitation of the sick, elderly, imprisoned, widowed,
        and orphaned, prayer, worship, study of God's Word, and witness to
        the Lost.

        If you finally find something good on the telly, is it only after
        having been bombarded with images of people doing and saying things
        you would (or should) forbid in your own home, especially in front
        of your children?  

	Hey, some of the food in the cafeteria dumpster is probably good,
	too.  Don't think I'd rummage through it for nourishment, though.

        What are you feeding your spirit?  Is is spiritual junk food, or is
        it the meat of the Word?

	TV can be used for good, but it overwhelmingly isn't.  My wife says
	that TV is "Too Violent".  I would add that it's "Terribly Vile".

	Go home and get intimate with God tonight!!  That won't happen in
	front of the TV.

	Dear God, revive us, your people, that our FIRST choice in
	"liesure" activity is to draw closer to you and to bring our
	families, friends, and neighbors with us.

	TonyC
	

    As much as I enjoy TV [actually videos mostly], I have to agree that
    Tony is probably more correct than our comfort zones want us to accept. 
    His notes have touched on a very personal area of our lives and one
    that we can "hide" from most onlookers.  That is how much garbage do we
    really feast on...and enjoy it... eeps!
    
    I know that each person's sensitivity level varies to such extremes
    that it amazes how Christians enjoy cartoons such as the Simpsons...
    they are ungodly, unholy and subtle at its destruction of our minds.
    
    Remember the Bible says what we feast on is what we become.  Input into
    the mind, will excrete from our daily lives.  You are what you eat goes
    further than food.
    
    Nancy

    My wife and I gave up on television when we got married in 1988.  We
    felt that it wasted our time together.  Now, my reasons have changed. 
    More reasons have come to the fore.  My current primary reason is that
    the television producers provide no useful content.  Especially
    journalists and news editors.
    
    I never really attempted to relate my decisions or reasoning on this
    into the spiritual side of things.  The nearest I got was that the
    increase in time available to me _might_ mean that I will read the
    bible more.  That didn't happen.  Any increase in my reading of the
    bible I can more reliably trace to a willingness to do so.
    
    James

    Re: Note 800.7 by NETCAD::WIEBE
    
>	"If Jesus were here today, would he enjoy sitting and watching this
>	TV program with me?"
    
    Chuckle.  Yes, he would.  Jesus would enjoy his work of loving the
    world by understanding what you are seeing.  He would be saddened by
    what he saw, but I can't imagine him not "enjoying" the whole
    experience.  Sorry; I twist things.  ;-)
    
    James

| <<< Note 800.39 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Please re-read 800.25.  There are far better things to do with your time. We 
| should be "redeeming the time", not trashing it.

	I guess if you never watch tv, you can't ever get to see the good
things that are on. Trust me, there is plenty of time for redeeming time, along
with tv time. To make a blanket statement that tv is nothing but bad, is really
not a true statement. 

| If you finally find something good on the telly, is it only after having been 
| bombarded with images of people doing and saying things you would (or should) 
| forbid in your own home, especially in front of your children?

	I think you're oversensitizing the whole thing. They have a thing
called the tv guide, which can be read, and one can pick out the show they want
to see, the time it is on. Channel surfing does not have to be a way of life.
But if you go by what you stated above, I would imagine you keep your children
in the home as much as possible, as the world that is out there is a lot like
the tv shows you don't want them to see. Except that life is reality. So do you
keep your children home as much as possible?

| What are you feeding your spirit?  Is is spiritual junk food, or is it the 
| meat of the Word?

	If it is spiritual, can it be junk food?

| TV can be used for good, but it overwhelmingly isn't.  

	I will agree with that.

| My wife says that TV is "Too Violent".  

	It can be. 

| Go home and get intimate with God tonight!! That won't happen in front of the 
| TV.

	That is a false statement. The tv has on many occasions allowed me to
get closer to God. To thank Him. Do you think it might have been God that led
me to whatever show/movie/event I was watching? I think it was. 

	While I do agree that tv can be bad, I don't think we as people should
take away a medium that He may choose to use to get a message to us. We can
keep our lives in a little cocoon, but for *me*, anyway, I think that limits
the many ways He can use us, work thru us, get message to us. With the tv one
can pick which shows they want to see. That is why I don't see why anyone would
just disgard the whole thing. 


Glen

Tony, I really liked your analogy of rooting through a dumpster.  I think the
ratio of food/garbage is about right.  There's probably enough good food in
the dumpster behind any restaurant to feed a family.  But boy, do you get
dirty and smelly trying to get it!  And you might very well wind up with food
that *looks* OK, but actually will poison you.

Paul

 I spent much of the weekend with the TV off.  It is interesting how one can
 find ways to be more productive without it.  I listened to classical music
 much of the weekend, read my Bible, prayed, caught up on newspaper reading
 (which likely will go the way of the TV soon), etc.

 I did watch a couple of things..a nature program last night, a little bit
 of baseball, etc.


 

 Jim

>    As far as FOX goes, the only show i view is X-Files, which does not
>    "yet" rely on sex, profanity and gratuitous violence. I currently do
    
    Fortunately, the producer Chris Carter, has stated that he has thus far
    resisted management pressure to have the main characters romantically
    involved.  I say good for him!  I like it the way it is.
    
    Mike

 So basically, while  God tells us to avoid all forms of evil, you think
 he'd like us to sit and watch something containing evil, or when He commands
 us not to use His name in vain, we should observe this happening on TV, both
 because we might learn something from it?  Is that what you are saying?




 Jim

>You know, maybe, JUST maybe, God would want you to see that. Would want
>you to feel how bad His name is taken in vain.

There's truth to this, but only in one-shot segments.  It may be appropriate
to view things that are not edifying, in order to understand them.  I saw the
movie "Sophie's Choice," and sobbed for an hour over the capacity of human
beings for evil.  It was not an edifying movie, but I'm glad that I saw it. 
I have not seen "Schindler's List," but I'd consider seeing it, or movies
like it, for the same reason.

So I agree that viewing something less-than-edifying, for the *EXPRESS*
purpose of understanding what's wrong in the world, and thus being moved to
change it, can be a good thing.  But that's not what's being talked about
here.  Continuing to view the same things over and over - as entertainment -
has exactly the opposite effect.  Instead of heightening our awareness of the
evil in the world and bringing a conviction to change it, it deadens our
awareness of the evil in the world and lulls us to sleep about it.

> Andrew, how much tv do you think it would take for this to happen? 

One thing that consistently astonishes me is the coexistence of these two
facts:

   - The entire multi-billion dollar television industry is funded by the
     fact that being exposed to small segments of time promoting advertising
     *changes* the way that people deal with the world.  The silly commercial
     with comic raisins dancing to "I heard it through the grape vine" did
     something like triple the sales of raisins nationwide.

   - TV producers, and others, insist that exposure to hours and hours of 
     programming with specific viewpoints behind them and specific values 
     portrayed, do nothing to influence the way people think.

Further commentary on why these two facts provide astonishment when put
together is probably pointless.

Paul

  On a similar note, I was listening to a talk radio program last week
 where the female co-host went out of her way to say "N word", however 
  didn't seem to mind using the Lord's name in vain.  When a caller 
  mentioned it to her, and stated his offense at the use of the Lord's name,
  she responded "you're oversensitive"..




 Jim

    Jim, don't you know that Christians aren't persecuted.  Dan
    Rather-types even say so!

| <<< Note 800.50 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| So basically, while  God tells us to avoid all forms of evil, you think he'd 
| like us to sit and watch something containing evil, or when He commands us not
| to use His name in vain, we should observe this happening on TV, both because 
| we might learn something from it?  Is that what you are saying?

	No. If all tv contained evil, then of course you would never watch it.
Not the ballgames, nature shows, nothing. What I AM saying is one should sit
down and ask Him to guide their viewing. He will lead you to what He wants you
to watch. It may be that some nights you end up not watching tv. But on those
nights you do, as long as you allow Him to show you what to watch, where is the
problem? You're having Him show you. You're becoming one with Him. What is the
problem????



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.55 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>>But on those
>>nights you do, as long as you allow Him to show you what to watch, where is the
>>problem? You're having Him show you. You're becoming one with Him. What is the
>>problem????

	Pray for God's blessing while you root around in the filth?  You
	can't have a Christian whorehouse just cuz you pray about it first.

        What about the commercials?  Now there's a real wholesome
	collection of visual and aural stimulation. 8-q  Let's see what God
	has to say about commercials.

          Exodus 20:17 
           Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt
          not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his
          maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that
          [is] thy neighbour's.

          Psalms 119:37 
           Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and]
          quicken thou me in thy way.

        Isn't that what commercials are all about?  To stir up your
        covetousness and vanity?  To provoke your desire to pervert your
        judgement with alcohol?  Oh, excuse me, you'll say that they are
        merely informative.  After all, how else would you know about
        Calvin Klein "jeans" or Max Factor fertility-god-paint or
        Swillmeister Beer or GREAT-BIG-AWESOME-PICKUP-TRUCKS.

        Then there's the highbrow PBS with no [blatant] commercialism.  But
        what about the blatant one-world-babel-Marxist-evolutionist-anti-
        Christ agenda of PBS and its whore sisters?  

          Psalms 1:1-2
           Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of
          the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth
          in the seat of the scornful.
           But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his
          law doth he meditate day and night.

          Psalms 101:3 
           I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the
          work of them that turn aside; [it] shall not cleave to me.

        And finally, there's the "entertainment" industry, whose rubbish is
        presented on "public" and commercial television alike.  

          Romans 1:32 
           Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit
          such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but
          have pleasure in them that do them.

        I don't believe that we should consider the behavior of wicked
        people as entertainment.  That would be having pleasure in them
	that commit such things worthy of death.  Read the above verse in
	its context to see which things are worthy of death.

          Ephesians 5:11-12
           And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
          darkness, but rather reprove [them].
           For it is a shame even to speak of those things which
          are done of them in secret.

          Romans 6:21 
           What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are
          now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.

	TV is junk.  It promotes junk culture, junk science, junk food,
	junk spirituality, junk, junk, junk.

	Shut the bloody thing off and interact with your families, the Body
	of Christ, the needy and widowed, the sick and elderly, the
	imprisoned and the lost.

	TonyC

 Stop, Tony, stop!  I'm falling under conviction!





 Jim

>    Jim, don't you know that Christians aren't persecuted.  Dan
>    Rather-types even say so!


  guess I got carried away there, Mike.




 Jim

RE: <<< Note 800.58 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>

> Stop, Tony, stop!  I'm falling under conviction!

	Bless God!!  And God bless you, Jim!

        Free at last!!  Think of it!  Free at last from the bondage of that
        one-eyed manipulative monstrosity and its agent-dupes!  ;-)  

	I'm terrible ....

	Love,
		TonyC
		

 It is true.  I find I'm so much more productive with the thing off, and I
 find myself focusing and thinking about the Lord more.  I'll confess to being
 rather attached to one program which I watch weekly.  But the question "would
 I invite the Lord to sit down and watch it with me" is ringing in my ears..



 Jim

RE: <<< Note 800.61 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>

	Sing it with me!

	Oh victory in Jesus, my savior forever.
	He sought me and bought me, with His redeeming blood.
	He loved me ere I knew Him, and all my love is due Him.
	He plunged me to the **VICTORY**
	Beneath the cleansing flood!

	(The above to be sung in four parts WITH VIGOR!)
	

 :-)  I love that hymn..the first time I ever attended Victory Baptist Church
 we sang that hymn, and between the vigor the congregation put in to singing
 that hymn, and the warmth and love extended by the folks I met, I *knew* I'd
 found a church home.




 Jim

    According to Anton LaVey, "TV is Satan's altar" (from the Satanic
    Bible).
    
    Oh, I know, I shouldn't be looking in this sort of book, but I was
    curious and paged through it.  It was boldly displayed in the
    "Religious" section in which I was perusing in a local bookstore (this
    was a while ago).  LaVey had an interesting chapter on TV.  I found
    myself agreeing with him about the subtle influence it has had on
    America's mindset since it was introduced to the public.
    
    It is an opiate for the masses, and is indeed addictive (not to mention
    a terrible waste of time, for the most part).
    
    That said, I must admit that I did watch the toob last night.  I
    watched the SF/Detroit game on Monday Night Football.  Great game! 
    (Detroit won, in case anyone was wondering) 
    
    I've been finding that there is less and less worthwhile programming,
    so I've been listening to my stereo more.  Never has TV been more of a
    complete wasteland than it is today.  Very little that is even
    interesting these days.  I'm being weaned from the toob simply by the
    terrible programming that is offered.
    
    Soon, I will be down to rental movies, I will- that and ST reruns.
    Glad I've been upgrading my sound system.  8^)   
    
    
    -steve

RE: <<< Note 800.63 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>

	Amen, Jim!  I remember visiting Victory a while back.  We were
	greatly blessed by the love and excitement of the Body there.
	They didn't need the piano.  Couldn't hear it above the singin'
	anyway, praise God.
	
	I heard about a mansion, He has built for me in Glory.
	And I heard about the streets of gold, beyond the Crystal Sea.
	About the angels singing, and the old redemtion story,
	And one great day I'll sing up there my song of VICTORY!

	Hallelujah!  I cain't contain meself!

but I, for one, find your bluntness delightful, Tony.  Sometimes we've been
so gently lulled to sleep by all the pretty words that a shake-up is what we
need more than anything.

Don't stop on my account.  :-)

Paul

 Amen, Paul..




 Re Tony...the singing in my church is wonderful.  




 Jim

    I heard about his groaning
    of his precious blood's atoning
    then I repented of my sin
    and claimed the victory.... :-)

 Oh, victory in Jesus
 my saviour for ever
 he sought me and bought me
 with His redeeming blood
 He loved me ere I knew Him
 and all my love is due Him
 He plunged me to VICTORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY
 beneath the cleansing flood!

RE: last few ...

        See?  Who needs TV!!!  Singing hymns and praises with your brothers
        and sisters in the Lord will bring far greater pleasure (the right
	kind) than getting in an emotional knot watching the tube, or even
	listening to the ray-dee-oh, or reading the "news"papers. 

	God bless and nurture you all!

	TonyC
	

| <<< Note 800.56 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "He must increase - I must decrease" >>>



| A lot of your argument is saying 'get to know what the forgery is like, so
| you're familiar enough with it to know the problem.

	Andrew, what I am saying is sit down and have Him guide you with what
to watch. If you do that, you will watch what He wants you to. You allow Him to
use you, to have you see, what He wants you to see. Pretty simple. And at the
same time, by working tv with Him, you're getting even closer.

| It's listening to the world that numbs us to its wickedness, and woos us
| away from God.

	It's not listening to the world that puts one so far behind. I mean,
how can you deal with wickedness if you don't even know what it is? But I think
this is a seperate issue from tv.

| That's a good argument for introducing blasphemy into the communion service, 
| yes?  

	That's a stretch, isn't it? Lets see.... you never hear the words
uttered, so they continue to say them over and over. No one tries to stop them,
so they just continue. And of course, where the majority of the people in this
country don't ignore the tv, they see it as becoming a normal thing. Aren't we
supposed to be doing His will? Does His will just stay within the Christian
community? Seems to me that you're only interested in yourselves when it comes
to tv, not others. If that is a wrong impression, then please, by all means,
show me how you have corrected it. All I see is ignoring. 


Glen

| <<< Note 800.57 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Pray for God's blessing while you root around in the filth? You can't have a 
| Christian whorehouse just cuz you pray about it first.

	This is pretty funny. So many say that God was able to guide the
authors of the Bible through it all, but now give the impression that prayer
wouldn't work because there is so much filth out there. Why the turn around?

| I don't believe that we should consider the behavior of wicked people as 
| entertainment. That would be having pleasure in them that commit such things 
| worthy of death.  

	I guess that means your mind will be safe, but who cares about the
others who watch what you consider filth. God forbid that He should play some
part in what you watch. I guess I am beginning to understand why some of the
things the RR want are so strange. It's because it appears, anyway, some of
them live in a shell.



Glen

 Thanks Ray! (.71)



 While sitting in court one day with my son, I watched as person after person
 stood before the judge accused of DWI, some 2nd offense, and they were 
 sentenced to fines and loss of license.  One man, with a family and a 
 promising career with a major transportation company, saw it all go down the
 tubes thanks to a few of those beers that are so attractively presented to 
 us.

 Jim

    like it or not, TV (and the rest of 'society') real and ever-present.
    If you've not got it in your house, great.  Remember, though, that your
    kids hear about the shows they're missing from their friends who
    probably do have the dreaded box and who's parents may not be as
    protective. Be sure you teach the kids *why* you don't have one and how
    to protect themselves when visiting... else it's just another thing
    that Mom & Dad don't le me do and I'll take advantage of every
    opportunity possible at Johnny's house.
    
    Personally, we do have 2 TV's, cable, and VCR's.  I've spent a good bit
    of time with my boys highlighting the little that is of worth in the TV
    Guide and showing them just how much garbage there is, why we don't
    watch everything, why we don't just channel-surf, etc. The coolest
    part, for me, is to watch my kids mute the TV and turn around facing
    away from it during commercials - without my having to tell them to
    anymore :-)
    
    -Steven
    

re: <<< Note 800.73 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

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????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Notes> NEXT UNSEEN
		

    That wasn't very nice.  Actually what Glen is saying is very similar
    to what I was reading back in the note 258 on Satan.  The question
    there was basically the same, do you study the Devil to know what to
    avoid, or do you study God so next to His goodness, anything else is 
    clearly a conterfeit?  Its a good question. Unfortunately, its one
    of those questions that once a person decides the answer to, its 
    almost impossible to change their mind.  Therefore, perhaps enough
    has been said and we should go on to another topic?
    
    Jill2

RE: <<< Note 800.75 by TOHOPE::VORE_S "Raise The Standard" >>>

        Spend some time with the Brethren or the Mennonites.  They don't
        have TVs or radios.  They don't get involved in competetive sports.
        They eschew popular culture.  Their children don't seem very
        traumatized by all the things they see the rest of the world doing.
        Ask them.  They'll tell you what a blessing it is being brought up
        in a Godly home with none of the silly distractions of this wicked
        and perverse generation.  They know about TV and sports and dating
        and rock'n'roll.  They see and hear it in the stores when they
        shop.  They also see its fruit. "Teen" pregnancy, divorce, and
        other social problems are virtually un-named among them.  
	
        Indeed, you have to be careful about with whom your children
        associate.

	  Prov 13:20
	    He that walketh with wise [men] shall be wise: but a companion
	  of fools shall be destroyed.

	  Prov 22:15
	    Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of
	  correction shall drive it far from him.
	
        This is one of the reasons we homeschool.  Foolishness is bound in
        the heart of the child, and the companion of fools will be
        destroyed.  Sounds to me like mass education and popular culture in
        general are conducive to failure.  If any kids survive their
        involvement with popular culture and their "friends" and still give
        their lives over to God, it is certainly in spite of these things
	than because of them.

	TV is junk.  Pop culture is junk.  Mass education is junk.
	It is vanity and clutter.  You don't need it.  Get rid of it.

	Ask God to search you and try your hearts, instead.

	Blessing to all,
		TonyC

	PS  That last part of Prov 22:15 should win lots of points with the
	    social workers, eh?
	

RE: <<< Note 800.77 by HPCGRP::DIEWALD >>>

        Sorry, Jill.  I didn't get the sense you explained from Glen's
        note.  I went back and re-read it, and it still doesn't make sense
        to me.  The logic utterly escacpes me.  Where does the RR come into
        play in this?  From what I can tell, their position on TV is the
        same as Glen's!

	Glen, if you are concerned about the poor slob watching the weekly
	slasher on the tube, don't you think that, instead of watching
	along with him and getting all tied up in emotional knots over it,
	you should get off your backside and knock on his door and
	interrupt that garbage being spewed into his living room by the
	electric sewer and introduce him to Christ?  What if he slams the
	door in your face?  Praise God and promise to come back again the
	next week!

	Peace,
		Tony
		

re: .79

>        Spend some time with the Brethren or the Mennonites.  They don't
>        have TVs or radios.  They don't get involved in competetive sports.
>        They eschew popular culture.  Their children don't seem very
>        traumatized by all the things they see the rest of the world doing.

True, and the point here is the same as I was trying to make sure was made -
teach the children.  I'm sure these good folks don't just rely on the fact
that they don't have TV's etc., the probably spend a good bit of time with
the kids.

> Sounds to me like mass education and popular culture in
>        general are conducive to failure.

I wouldn't quite go this far, but kids certainly can't just be sent into the
world blindly.  I try to make sure my kids know about the evils of the world
and thus be ready for it - send them out with their eyes open as it were.  
What's the verse about living 'in the world but not being of the world'?

| <<< Note 800.74 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| While sitting in court one day with my son, I watched as person after person
| stood before the judge accused of DWI, some 2nd offense, and they were
| sentenced to fines and loss of license.  One man, with a family and a
| promising career with a major transportation company, saw it all go down the
| tubes thanks to a few of those beers that are so attractively presented to us.

	Jim, I suggest you sit at home and never go anywhere. Not work, not to
the store, nothing. That's the only way you can live in a bubble.

| <<< Note 800.76 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


	How nice.

	TonyC, it seems that you too should be joining Jim in his bubble world.
Although it would appear that Jim is in less of a bubble as he does watch the
Red Sox..... I guess it's going from the bubble to the dream world! :-)

    	I think it is rather presumptuous to expect God to micri-manage
    	our lives to the point that he will tell us which TV shows to
    	watch and which not to watch.  Such a presumption must then
    	expect that God will tell us when to look away if a potentially-
    	offensive commercial is about to air...  The only other expectation
    	one could conclude would be that God really WANTS us to view
    	the un-wholesome and evil things that are bound to dance before
    	us.

Re 800.82 (Glen) on 800.74 (Jim)

Glen, I think you missed Jim's point.  He wasn't saying he regretted being
aware.  He was saying he regretted what there was to be aware of - ie,
people's physical and spiritual mismanagement.  They are in the wrong bubble. 

								Andrew

RE: <<< Note 800.83 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

	Please forgive me, Glen, for my insensitive display of impatience.
	Bless God that he is not so impatient with me.

        However, I cannot parse the logic of many of your replies to this
        topic, and had supposed that they were deliberate attempts at
	obfuscation and evasion.  We are to suppose the best motives in 
	people, not the worst, so for this I offer my apology.

	Peace,
		TonyC

RE: Note 800.81

	Yes, Steve, we must teach the children.  That is why we homeschool.
	That is why we have family worship and song and playtime everynight
	instead of watching the TV or participating in some other popular
	cultural event.  That is why we treasure the time with our families
	and jealously guard our time with the Lord.

RE: 800.82 & 800.84

        When the storm is raging outside, the sensible run for cover.  It
        is good to point outside, a safe distance from the window, and say
        to your children, "That, kids, is a hurricane.  Those fierce winds
        can drive a stick through a car door."  However, it would be absurd
        to push them out the door and tell them to "experience" the
        hurricane firsthand so that they'll be able to recognize one when
        they see it.  Many of us as parents have been convinced by the
	socialists we must put our children in harm's way in order for them
	to recognize harmful circumstances.  This is utter folly and has
	led to the destruction of the generations, as plainly demonstrated
	by the condition of our "civilization".

	If you consider this living in a bubble, well, Amen!

	TonyC

I thought that it was quite interesting, when we went to an open house at our
child's school yesterday (public school), that there was a full page in the
handout given to parents about the evils of TV and of allowing kids to watch
so much of it.

When the public schools start to notice how bad it is, it must be REALLY a
mess.

Paul

 re .86


 Thanks, Andrew.  I couldn't quite figure that one out myself.






 Jim

 Even TV critics seem to be saying that there's too much garbage on TV.

| <<< Note 800.85 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| I think it is rather presumptuous to expect God to micri-manage our lives to 
| the point that he will tell us which TV shows to watch and which not to watch.

	I agree. And I don't think He would.... unless we ask. Please correct
me if I am wrong, but it sounds from the above that God isn't there for us
whenever we need Him, whenever we ask for His guidance. I'm sure that is not
what you meant, and if it isn't, please explain why you wouldn't expect God to
manage our lives by showing us which tv shows to watch?
 



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.91 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>

>> Even TV critics seem to be saying that there's too much garbage on TV.

	It's refreshing to hear that they're finally acting as critics
	instead of cheerleaders!  ;-)

| <<< Note 800.87 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Please forgive me, Glen, for my insensitive display of impatience.

	You are forgiven! :-)

| However, I cannot parse the logic of many of your replies to this topic, and 
| had supposed that they were deliberate attempts at obfuscation and evasion.  

	Has anyone caught on to this common thread? People are spending far too
much time coming to conclusions of other people's motives, thoughts, etc, and
expressing them as fact. Why can't people just ASK what the other meant?

	Tony, what I am trying to say basically is the more we as humans turn
our backs to things, the fewer tools God is allowed to use to get any type of
message to us, to use us for <insert His cause>. The tv on it's own can be
quite dangerous. But tv viewed with Him, can be quite powerful. 


Glen

| <<< Note 800.88 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| If you consider this living in a bubble, well, Amen!

	Tony, nice analogy you had in that note. But, what I consider living in
a bubble is when one who is inside tries to comment on what is going on
outside. They just don't really know, but comment anyway.


Glen

  I commented on something I saw in court.  A man, with a promising career,
 stops and has a few beers after work, gets in his car, gets nailed for DWI,
 goes to court, loses his license for some period of time (6 mos in this case
 I believe), loses his job, and at faces at least a temporary inability
 to provide for his family (also has to pay a hefty fine), and you're saying
 that I am "living in a bubble"?



 Jim

RE: <<< Note 800.92 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

        I don't believe that we can ask for God's guidance or blessing in
        pursuing an activity that considers as entertainment such things as
        dysfunction, violence, prurience, and blasphemy, punctuated with
        commercials specifically designed to appeal to our covetousness and
        arouse our lust and using dysfunction, violence, prurience, and
        blasphemy to accomplish this end.  You can't watch this junk night
        after night and insist that it is an intellectual pursuit in
        gauging the efforts of the enemy.

	"Be not decieved, God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth,
	that shall he also reap."

Ideally implemented, trusting God to lead us in all things is true, and is
how we are to live our lives.  But too often we can use it as license to do
what we want.  Instead of "God, you lead, and I will follow," it becomes
"God, I'm going to do whatever I feel like, and I'll count on you to smack me
if I start doing something you don't want me to do."  The latter method is
rarely successful in following God's will.

Do we have a TV in the home, and tell God "If you tell me to watch something,
I will?"  That's great.  Or do we sit down in front of the TV, bored and
determined to be entertained, give lip service to God by saying "Which of
these programs do you want me to watch?," while the unspoken underlying
qualification to that question is "...and BTW, I won't accept 'none of them'
for an answer."

The Israelites tried that sort of "asking the Lord's guidance."  It failed
miserably.  In 1Samuel 4 is the story of what happened.  It starts out saying
"Now the Israelites went out to fight against the Philistines."  No mention
of God telling them to go, they just went, on their own initiative.  They
were defeated, about 4000 Israelites were killed.  So they decided to bring
the ark of the covenant with them.  In effect, they said to themselves: 

"What happened?  Why did we get defeated?  Oh, of course!  We forgot to bring
God!  Somebody go back to camp and get God, and bring him along.  Then he'll
bless us while we try to do this stupid thing that he never told us to do in
the first place."

The result?  They were slaughtered, 30,000 Israelites were killed, the high
priest's sons included, and the ark was captured.

Putting God's 'stamp of approval' on what we want to do by bringing Him along
in our own plans, paying lip service to listening to His guidance and
expecting Him to somehow make it all work out is not the way to seek the
Lord's will.

Paul

	Amen, Paul!

	We do have TV's in our house.  For the kids, they are mostly
	used for videos.  We've got 2 disney movies, and some educational
	videos, and we regularly borrow videos from our church.

	One need only watch a 2 year old learn the alphabet from a video
	to know that TV has a tremendous influence on anyone that watches it.

	The TV doesn't usually go on in our house until the kids are
	in bed, though.  Jamie and I are finding less and less that
	we can tolerate, though we tend to watch news magazines (and
	sports!).

	I don't believe that every home with a TV is avoiding all the
	things that Tony has said you can do when you haven't got one on,
	but I do agree that the time is better spent together as a family
	(which is why ours doesn't usually go on until after 8:30).

	Karen

tv snarf!

| <<< Note 800.97 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| I don't believe that we can ask for God's guidance or blessing in pursuing an 
| activity that considers as entertainment such things as dysfunction, violence,
| prurience, and blasphemy, punctuated with commercials specifically designed to
| appeal to our covetousness and arouse our lust and using dysfunction, violence
| prurience, and blasphemy to accomplish this end.  

	Fine, don't turn to God for help. That's your decision. But I hope you
never comment on these subjects, because you won't really know what is going on
with them living in your bubble.



Glen

	Paul, that's why the tv guide is so handy. You ask God up front to
guide you through this, and if there are shows He wants you to view, you will
find them. You may not watch tv for weeks, or you may watch tv in spurts. Only
He knows. 

	I can't understand why people don't want to have Him guide them with the
tv. Instead they just brush it all off as pure evil. So much can and is being
missed due to your human controls taking over. 


Glen

	Jim, what is living in a bubble about what you saw was the conclusion
you used to base it all. If someone is caught on a dwi charge, who's fault is
it? The persons. The tv commercial did not tell the person to drink and drive.
In fact, tv commercials are telling people to not do that. I guess it did not
have quite the influence. 

RE: <<< Note 800.101 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

        Glen, be honest with me.

        1. Do you really find it impossible to comprehend that people don't
        have to be intimately involved with something to know whether it's
        good or bad for them?  E.g, do I need to get drunk to know it's bad
        for me?  Or can I just take God's word for it?

        2. Do you really believe that unless one is a regular TV viewer, he
        is disqualified from commenting on it?

	3. Do you really believe that God can guide and bless you in an
	activity in which people acting out wicked and perverse behaviours
	is treated as entertainment?

	4. Can you understand that part of turning to God for help is
	reading the Bible to get His perspective on things?  That once He
	has proscribed certain behaviors in His word, praying for His
	guidance and blessing in engaging in said behaviors is futile?

	1st John 2:15-16
	  Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world.
	If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
	  For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the
	lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but
	is of the world.

	5. Isn't TV rife with "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the
	eyes, and the pride of life"?

	Romans 1:32
	  Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such
	things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have
	pleasure in them that do them.

        6. What do you suppose "have pleasure in them that do them" means
        in the context of a violent or salacious TV show?  Are you
        entertained by incontinent behavior?  Even if you are reviled at
        the images on the screen, your revulsion is still entertainment,
        because you *SOUGHT* to be reviled.  Even if the show is OK, and
	the commercials are gross, you *KNOW* that these things will happen
	in TV, yet you *SOUGHT* to be in a place where you *KNOW* these
	types of things go on, and where you cannot possibly be any witness
	of Christ.

	And finally, please consider the following verses.

	Ephesians 5:11
	  And have no fellowship with the unfuitful works of darkness, but
	rather reprove [them].

	2nd Corinthians 6:17
	  Wherefire come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the
	Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
	  
	2nd Corinthians 7:1
	  Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse
	ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting
	holiness in the fear of God.

	If you want to know if TV is good or bad, just turn it on for a few
	minutes and compare the behaviors displayed there as normal with
	what God expects.  It shouldn't take you long to shut it back off.

| <<< Note 800.104 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| 1. Do you really find it impossible to comprehend that people don't have to be
| intimately involved with something to know whether it's good or bad for them?

	First off, you keep talking like I want you to love your tv. I'm not
asking that. Now to answer your question, no, one can have an idea sometimes on
what is good or bad without being intimately involved in it. But many people,
because they didn't look into it, take something that is actually good, and
make it bad. That happens with people, areas, companies, anything. 

	But that doesn't appear to be what you are doing. It appears you are 
trying to distance yourself from this world of His. Keep everyone at home. How 
can you even know what is going on when you're turning your back to it all? How 
can God use you to make a change in this world when you appear to be turning 
your back on it? I'm not asking you to become intimately involved. What I am 
saying is you can't know what is going on in the world with your back turned to 
it.
  
| 2. Do you really believe that unless one is a regular TV viewer, he is 
| disqualified from commenting on it?

	I'm talking about more than tv....try life. But to deal with your
question, what could you possibly base it on? What others tell you? Come on.
You know there are poeple in this conference that would tell you watching
sports is ok (as they do it). Would you listen to them and turn on your tv? 

| 3. Do you really believe that God can guide and bless you in an activity in 
| which people acting out wicked and perverse behaviours is treated as 
| entertainment?

	If we let Him, yes. But *WE* have to let Him. Maybe you don't believe
you can let Him, I don't know. Do you believe He can do it?

| 4. Can you understand that part of turning to God for help is reading the 
| Bible to get His perspective on things?  

	That's where you're gonna lose me. While I believe the above is true if
that is the tool of choice He uses, I can't for the life of me understand why 
anyone would put a limit on what God can do by holding Him to one tool ONLY! We
humans should stop putting limits on Him. 

| 5. Isn't TV rife with "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and 
| the pride of life"?

	Wow..... I guess if maybe you think tv is gonna take over your life,
then I might be able to believe the above. But then doesn't that say something
about a lack of faith in Him? I mean, just turning on the tube and not asking
Him for giudance will give you what you say above, but how can it if you talk
to Him and allow Him to guide you? Use the above to answer question 6. 

Glen

    Hi,
    
    seems to me that we are moving away from the base topic (which is not a
    bad thing) into a more general "In the world, but not of the world".
    
    And this is our tension that we live with daily.
    
    We live in this world. This world where we are surrounded by the
    consequences of sin. Paedophillia, pornography, other sexual
    immorality, murder, abortion, slander, licentiousness, lying, theft,
    unfaithfulness, etc. etc. etc.
    
    But we are not _of_ this world (well, those of us that are Christians).
    So we know that we don't 'fit' in this world, because if we do, then we
    have compromised far too much.
    
    *But*, is knowing things (e.g. what happens on the 6 O'clock news)
    beneficial? For some, yes. For others, no. For example, I used to watch
    1.5 hours of news a day, and then another 1/2 hr 'Current Affairs'
    commentary - 2 hours a day on 'news'. But it didn't really do me any
    good. Ok, I could converse on the finsest details on the latest
    corruption scandal, or the killing of whales, or on any number of
    things. But it wasn't really 'building me up'. I now watch 1/2 hr a
    day, or rather, I catch the opening headlines, switch off, and then
    catch the weather at the close of the report. 10 minutes tops.
    
    But for others, they may well need to know all the gory details of
    what's going on in the world, and sit down and watch CNN for hours on
    end (ugh >'P).
    
    We are exhorted that "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is
    right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if
    anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things." (
    PHILIPPIANS 4:8 (ENGLISH-NIV))
    
    And yet, here we are, filling our minds with things that are not
    pure, things that are not lovely, nor any of the other things. And yet,
    and yet... we constantly 'feel the need', feel the 'desire' to know
    these things. But are we exhorted to know the ways of the world?
    
    We're exhorted to be as wise as serpants and as gentle as doves
    (MATTHEW 10:16 - Harry's memory version). But does this wisdom imply
    soaking ourselves in the sin that surrounds us? We are to be as those
    surrounding us, so that we can win them over for the sake of the
    Gospel, as Paul said "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
    To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I
    myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To
    those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I
    am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win
    those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I
    have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might
    save  some." (I Corinthians 9:20-22 - NIV).
    
    Why? "I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its
    blessings." (v23)
    
    But does that mean we actually *become* that way?? As in, do we
    actually change our heart attitude to conform to that manner? Or do we
    retain our purity in the midst of this?
    
    But if we take the attitude that we are to become as they are, so that
    we may by some opportunity, win them for Christ, where does the
    exhortation to be "the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13), or to be "the
    light of the world" (v14) leave us?
    
    In the world, but not of the world.
    
    Our decision is to determine how much we are in the world, or rather,
    how much of the world is in us. If we lose our saltiness, our
    difference, then we are useless. Nay, _worse_ than useless. If our
    light is clouded by the darkness in our hearts, what is our use?
    
    This string, while on the surface about 'should we watch, or not watch,
    TV?', is really about 'where do we, as the People of God, fit into this
    world?'
    
    Glen has raised some good points about 'how can you talk with people if
    you don't know about what concerns them?' 
    
    But then, do we need to know *everything* about a person, or everything
    that concerns them before we talk with them? Is not the purpose of
    talking with them, in one area, to get to know them? To understand what
    concerns them?
    
    Somehow, I think that form of communication doesn't require the
    intervention of TV. It requires a loving caring heart. The heart of the
    Father for those lost children.
    
    I've rambled enough. And probably got us off on a tangent - sorry.

>>	If we let Him, yes. But *WE* have to let Him. Maybe you don't believe
>>you can let Him, I don't know. Do you believe He can do it?

        Let me see if I've got this straight.  You believe that we can 
        *LET* (permit, allow) God to bless something He has told us not to
        do in in His word, specifically, not to take pleasure (be
	entertained) by wicked behavior (Rom 1:32).  Ah .. yuh.

| 4. Can you understand that part of turning to God for help is reading the 
| Bible to get His perspective on things?  

>>	That's where you're gonna lose me. While I believe the above is true if
>>that is the tool of choice He uses, I can't for the life of me understand why 
>>anyone would put a limit on what God can do by holding Him to one tool ONLY! We
>>humans should stop putting limits on Him.

        Yep, and this is where you lose, Glen.  If you don't consider the
        Word of God to be authoritative, that is to say, His tool of choice
        for all occasions, then we are not making contact.  Perhaps you
        should re-read 2.*

        Furthermore, you did not address question 6, which references
        Romans 1:32, and the associated verses, which I repeat here to
        re-prompt you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Romans 1:32
	  Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such
	things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have
	pleasure in them that do them.

        6. What do you suppose "have pleasure in them that do them" means
        in the context of a violent or salacious TV show?  Are you
        entertained by incontinent behavior?  Even if you are reviled at
        the images on the screen, your revulsion is still entertainment,
        because you *SOUGHT* to be reviled.  Even if the show is OK, and
        the commercials are gross, you *KNOW* that these things will happen
        in TV, yet you *SOUGHT* to be in a place where you *KNOW* these
        types of things go on, and where you cannot possibly be any witness
        of Christ.

        And finally, please consider the following verses.

        Ephesians 5:11
          And have no fellowship with the unfuitful works of darkness, but
        rather reprove [them].

        2nd Corinthians 6:17
          Wherefire come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the
        Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

        2nd Corinthians 7:1
          Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse
        ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting
        holiness in the fear of God.

        If you want to know if TV is good or bad, just turn it on for a few
        minutes and compare the behaviors displayed there as normal with
        what God expects.  It shouldn't take you long to shut it back off.

| <<< Note 800.106 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "...but words can break my heart" >>>

| Glen has raised some good points about 'how can you talk with people if
| you don't know about what concerns them?' But then, do we need to know 
| *everything* about a person, or everything that concerns them before we talk 
| with them? 

	The answer to this is no. But how many times does one skip talking, or
learning about, because they have come to a decision based on blanket
statements? How many times have we been wrong when we do it? The phrase, "You
shouldn't judge a book by its cover" comes to mind. This is why when you said:

| Is not the purpose of talking with them, in one area, to get to know them? To 
| understand what concerns them?

	The above makes 100% sense. It HAS to be what we as Christians do. It
cuts down on the judging, it cuts down on the wrong doings. 

| Somehow, I think that form of communication doesn't require the intervention 
| of TV. 

	The key words...."I think". Why not let God do the thinking for you?

| It requires a loving caring heart. The heart of the Father for those lost 
| children.

	YES! His heart can and will guide us if we let Him. 

| I've rambled enough. And probably got us off on a tangent - sorry.

	Actually, you said an awful lot that makes perfect sense. 



Glen

A few thoughts, as some good questions were raised in 
this string..

It strikes me that Christ's main (only?) concern is for people.
Some of them are Christians, some non-Christians.  If it's 
Christ's concern, it should be ours - to be as involved as 
possible with the people around us, to love them and to 
win them to Christ.  

Given that, in my opinion, TV is a major roadblock, for two
reasons.

1.  It's a passive medium.  When we watch TV, there is NO
interaction going on.  If my kids watch, I can't talk to them, they
don't talk to me.  When it's on, people watch, they don't interact.
So, if our priority is to be involved and interacting with people, 
we can subtract the time spent watching TV from the time avail-
able to do that.

2. It's an unrealistic medium.  Little on TV is like real life.  The 
things that happen during a 1/2 hour or hour on TV don't 
correspond well to what happens in most of our lives.  Most of
us don't have affairs, murders, or the other things on TV, happen 
to us (at least, not as often as they do on TV).  And, if they do
happen, they don't turn out the way they do on TV.   SO, the 
argument about watching TV to learn about real life falls to the 
ground.  

Other than watching the Mariners win, or the Sonics win until the
playoffs start, I can't see how TV adds much value to our lives.
I also can't see how it helps us serve Christ and other people.
Not that it's inherently a bad thing, just a rather pointless thing.

Don Randall
Seattle

| <<< Note 800.107 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| Let me see if I've got this straight. You believe that we can *LET* (permit, 
| allow) God to bless something He has told us not to do in in His word, 
| specifically, not to take pleasure (be entertained) by wicked behavior 

	No, that is not what I am saying. It's kind of funny. You keep giving
me the impression that I want you to watch tv all the time or soemthing. That
no matter what is on, you should watch it. Pretty funny stuff. Reread my notes
to see what I am trying to say.

| Yep, and this is where you lose, Glen. If you don't consider the Word of God 
| to be authoritative, that is to say, His tool of choice for all occasions, 
| then we are not making contact.  

	While you may choose (a human thing) to only allow God to use you,
guide you, etc, with just ONE SINGLE tool, I don't. I allow God to use whatever
tools he wants to. He can use the Bible, he can use a street sign. It's up to
Him to choose what He wants to use to get a message to me, it is not up to me
to interfere with what He wants to use by putting limits on Him.

| Perhaps you should re-read 2.*

	Perhaps, as usual, this has nothing to do with 2.*. 

| Furthermore, you did not address question 6, 

	It was answered. Go reread my note.




Glen

| <<< Note 800.109 by NWD002::BAYLEY::Randall_do "Software:  Making Hardware Useful" >>>

| It's a passive medium. When we watch TV, there is NO interaction going on. If 
| my kids watch, I can't talk to them, they don't talk to me.  

	Think about what you are saying. Why is it like you have stated? Could
it be that Christ isn't present? How about viewing tv with your family, and
Christ? Allow Him to choose what to watch, and instead of spending the time
with no interaction, spend it trying to figure out why He wants you to watch
it. Pray to Him about making sure you get the message. Interaction, if you're
alone, will happen between you and Him, if you're with your family, it will
happen between you, your family, and Him. It is US that allow the stagnation to
take effect. It isn't Him. Include Him and watch what happens when you actually
do watch tv. 

| It's an unrealistic medium. Little on TV is like real life. The things that 
| happen during a 1/2 hour or hour on TV don't correspond well to what happens 
| in most of our lives. Most of us don't have affairs, murders, or the other 
| things on TV, happen to us (at least, not as often as they do on TV).  

	Another common theme message I see in these notes is the me me me
thing. Could it be that He might want you to see something so He can use you
down the road? It could be a nature show, a news show, a tv show, anything. But
the me me me thing comes in, shuts down something where God might have had
plans for you. 

| Other than watching the Mariners win, or the Sonics win until the playoffs 
| start, I can't see how TV adds much value to our lives.

	Me, me, me...... why don't you let Him show you?

| I also can't see how it helps us serve Christ and other people.

	How many people can see how EVERYTHING will help serve Christ and other
people? I'll give you a hint, it's just Him. Lets say you normally take a
certain way to walk to the store. For some reason, you decide to try a
different route. You see someone that needs help, and you help them. Could you
have known why that route would help serve Christ or other people? Nope. But
for that day, it did. If we just go by what WE see, then we have added the
humanism equation into what He may want from us. That's why I'm not saying sit
down in front of the tube and watch away. I am saying talk it over with Him.
Let Him decide. 



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.110 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>>No, that is not what I am saying. It's kind of funny. You keep giving me
>>the impression that I want you to watch tv all the time or soemthing. That
>>no matter what is on, you should watch it. Pretty funny stuff. Reread my
>>notes to see what I am trying to say.

        I have read your notes, and re-read your notes.  Here is how we
	differ.

        You to believe that there is some redeeming content on television,
        enough to warrant getting on your knees and asking God to help you
        sift through the TV Guide (now there's a real Godly piece of work)
        to find a program in which He is well pleased.

        I believe that you cannot watch the thing for more than 15 minutes
        without somebody doing or saying something I wouldn't want my
	family to see or hear, nor believe that God would want me to see or
	hear.

        You believe that God can bless and guide you in selecting edifying
        entertainment on TV.

        I believe that God does not want us to look upon incontinent and
        violent behavior as entertainment, and that He will not bless an
        activity He has proscribed in His Word.
	
        I believe there isn't enough good stuff on TV to waste time you
        could be redeeming with your family or in study of God's Word or in
        prayer or in witness.

	I have gone around and around with you on this so many times, Glen,
	that I just have to realize that you do not want to see the thing
	for what it is, nor to take God's Word for it that feeding yourself
	on intellectual sludge and moral sewage is bad for you.

	Hey, have at it!  

| Perhaps you should re-read 2.*

>>	Perhaps, as usual, this has nothing to do with 2.*.

	It does if you do not take the Word of God to have more weight than
	a "street sign" or your "feelings". 

| Furthermore, you did not address question 6, 
>>	It was answered. Go reread my note.

	I just did.  You did not address it.

	Glen, it sounds as though Tony *is* letting God tell him.

	He's telling him "Don't watch TV!" 

	Why do you have such a problem with that ?  Why does it
	matter to you that Tony doesn't watch TV ?

	Karen

| <<< Note 800.112 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| You to believe that there is some redeeming content on television,

	Yes.

| enough to warrant getting on your knees and asking God to help you sift 
| through the TV Guide to find a program in which He is well pleased.

	I think you have this idea that if you watch something, it has to be
pure. To think that way is putting limits on what He may want you to see, isn't
it? By Him being please, may turn out that it makes you sick. Then again, it
may not. Depends on the message that He wants you to hear. 

| I believe that you cannot watch the thing for more than 15 minutes without 
| somebody doing or saying something I wouldn't want my family to see or hear, 

	The me me me thing again. Let Him show you what He wants you to watch
(and it may end up some nights you watch nothing), and take yourself out of the
picture.

| nor believe that God would want me to see or hear.

	Oh.... of course. Why allow Him to show you something that is going on
in His planet. I mean, that would be oh so wrong of Him to do. Btw, how do you
view those who do watch tv for <insert reasons> who also claim to be
Christians?

| You believe that God can bless and guide you in selecting edifying 
| entertainment on TV.

	Are you stuck on this entertainment word or something? You keep
bringing it up like it is supposed to have some sort of meaning. Who says what
you watch is going to be entertaining? (besides yourself) Who knows what
message He may want you to see. 

| I believe that God does not want us to look upon incontinent and violent 
| behavior as entertainment, 

	You are stuck on this word. Do you think maybe if you watch it you will
view it as entertainment? If that should happen, wouldn't that mean God wasn't
brought into all this from the beginning?

| I believe there isn't enough good stuff on TV to waste time you could be 
| redeeming with your family or in study of God's Word or in prayer or in 
| witness.

	What good is witnessing if you're stuck in the house? You say there
isn't enough good stuff on tv to waste your time. Again, I point out the
humanism in your note. YOU don't feel, waste YOUR time. I would think if you
brought God into it from the beginning, you would be bringing prayer into the
picture, and when you got the message He wanted you to see, you would be
witnessing. 

| I have gone around and around with you on this so many times, Glen, that I 
| just have to realize that you do not want to see the thing for what it is, 

	The above is wrong. If you had stated we see this from different views,
it would be truthful. 

| nor to take God's Word for it that feeding yourself on intellectual sludge 
| and moral sewage is bad for you.

	Please show me where God said that TV is bad for you. 

| >>	Perhaps, as usual, this has nothing to do with 2.*.

| It does if you do not take the Word of God to have more weight than a "street 
| sign" or your "feelings".

	I have not stated my feelings on the Bible. I have only said that God
uses other tools. Nothing more, nothing less. If you perceive it as me saying
something different, then you have made a mistake. I would hope in the future
you would not make claims about what I am saying, without knowing. Ask, don't
tell.


Glen

| <<< Note 800.113 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Revive us, Oh Lord" >>>


| Glen, it sounds as though Tony *is* letting God tell him.

	Really? God is telling Tony to put limits on how He can use him? How
interesteing.

| He's telling him "Don't watch TV!"

	According to Tony's notes, he is the one who is telling him to not
watch tv.



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.114 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

        Share with us, Glen, how God has used television to increase the
        power of your witness for Christ, improved your prayer life,
        convicted you of sin, improved your fellowship with your brothers
        and sisters in the Lord, and increased your faith in the authority
        of the Word of God.

>>	I think you have this idea that if you watch something, it has to be
>>pure. To think that way is putting limits on what He may want you to see, isn't
>>it? By Him being please, may turn out that it makes you sick. Then again, it
>>may not. Depends on the message that He wants you to hear. 

	Ok, let's go back to one of the original questions posted in .0

        How much pollution would you tolerate in the food you eat, the
        water you drink, and the air you breathe?  How much pollution
        should we tolerate in what we feed our spirit?

        If people came to your house and did and said things that come out
        of that box, would you want them to leave?  Especially if they
        were doing and saying these things in front of your children?

	If God says in His Word that He does not want you to deliberately
	observe incontinent and violent behaviors (which references I have
	copiously provided in previous replies), why do you believe that He
	would want you to deliberately observe incontinent and violent
	behaviors?

>>	The me me me thing again. Let Him show you what He wants you to watch
>>(and it may end up some nights you watch nothing), and take yourself out of the
>>picture.

        I have taken myself out of the picture .. out of the picture tube.
        I believe it's better to give my time to teaching my family,
        studying God's Word, witnessing to the lost, praying in the Spirit,
	singing Hynms, fellowshipping with brothers and sisters in the
	Lord, than to be hypnotized, strobed at 60 Hz, by the Manipulative
	Monochial Monster. 

>>	Oh.... of course. Why allow Him to show you something that is going on
>>in His planet. I mean, that would be oh so wrong of Him to do.

	How much of what's shown on TV is Truth, with a capital 'T'?
	How much of it furthers the work of God or the witness of Christ?

>>Btw, how do you
>>view those who do watch tv for <insert reasons> who also claim to be
>>Christians?

        I don't view them in any particular way.  That is between them and
        God. I started this topic to share what I believe the Holy Ghost
        has shown me concerning the popular culture phenomenon of TV and
	how it squares with the Word of God.  

>>	Are you stuck on this entertainment word or something? You keep
>>bringing it up like it is supposed to have some sort of meaning. Who says what
>>you watch is going to be entertaining? (besides yourself) Who knows what
>>message He may want you to see.

        What other possible reason could there be to watch sit-coms, ball
        games, cop shows, movies, rock concerts, nature shows, news
        programs, etc?  How much of the so-called informative programming
	content is Truth, with a capital 'T'?  How much more depth and
	breadth could you get from books or interpersonal interaction on
	these topics?  How much of the "news" has a first order impact on
	your relationship with God and your fellow creatures?  How many of
	the commercials promulgate Truth, with a capital 'T'?  How many of
	the commercials do not attempt to arouse covetousness and lust?

>>	You are stuck on this word. Do you think maybe if you watch it you will
>>view it as entertainment? If that should happen, wouldn't that mean God wasn't
>>brought into all this from the beginning?

	Touche'!  

>>	What good is witnessing if you're stuck in the house?

        Exactly.  This is where you are when you watch TV, no? Or don't you
        believe that one can be an effective witness without the stuff that
        you believe God can show you on TV.  What about what God can show
        you in His Word?  Are we talking about the same God here, Glen?

You say there
>>isn't enough good stuff on tv to waste your time. Again, I point out the
>>humanism in your note. YOU don't feel, waste YOUR time. I would think if you
>>brought God into it from the beginning, you would be bringing prayer into the
>>picture, and when you got the message He wanted you to see, you would be
>>witnessing.

        Let's see if I've got this straight; preferring to redeem one's
        time leading his family in worship, fellowshipping with brothers
        and sisters in the Lord, bringing the witness of Christ to the
        lost, bringing food to the poor, visiting the elderly, sick,
        widowed and imprisoned, studying the word of God, and fervent
        prayer is selfish and humanistic if that one considers praying for
        guidance for what to watch on the TV wasteland/moral sewer a waste
        of time.
	OhhhhKay ....

>>	The above is wrong. If you had stated we see this from different views,
>>it would be truthful.

	I am only stating it from the point of view of God's scripture.
	There is no other valid point of view,

>>	Please show me where God said that TV is bad for you.

        I believe that the scriptures I referenced inveighing against
        allowing your senses to be exposed to incontinence and violence
        presented as normal behaviors speak for themselves. 

>>	I have not stated my feelings on the Bible. I have only said that God
>>uses other tools. Nothing more, nothing less. If you perceive it as me saying
>>something different, then you have made a mistake. I would hope in the future
>>you would not make claims about what I am saying, without knowing. Ask, don't
>>tell.

        You have not quoted one verse of scripture in support of your
        position. 

        Share with us, Glen, how God has used television to increase the
        power of your witness for Christ, improved your prayer life,
        convicted you of sin, to help the poor, the lost, the incontinent,
        the imprisoned, the widowed, the orphaned.

	

	Can I request that we have a little cooling off period here ?

	Thanks,
	Karen

    	re .92
    
    	Did God tell you to post that note?
    
    	I'm not asking this as a snide remark, but rather to pose a
    	question that might help us think about the logic being suggested
    	here.

| <<< Note 800.116 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Share with us, Glen, how God has used television to increase the power of your
| witness for Christ, 

	This is easy, Tony. I had a problem. I prayed for Him to show me the
answer. He did. What tool did He use? The tv. What was the problem? It involved
my brother. Did I tell anyone about it? Yup! You bet. My friends in the church
I went to at the time.

| improved your prayer life, 

	I asked, He delivered. He chose the tool, not me.

| convicted you of sin, 

	By showing similar, if not the same sin on tv. And having it called
just that. Case in point. Going out and sometimes having a few too many brews.
Same thing was right on tv. And it was even under the once in a great while
thing.

| improved your fellowship with your brothers and sisters in the Lord, 

	Shows like Highway to Heaven, or even the X-Men have shown me this. I
mean, who would have thought the X-men would have a show that delt with faith
in God? That at the end, Logan, who had lost his faith, got down on his knees
and prayed to Him? 

| How much pollution would you tolerate in the food you eat, the water you 
| drink, and the air you breathe? How much pollution should we tolerate in what 
| we feed our spirit?

	Take what you just asked, and present it to Him. If you do the same
with tv, you get the same answer. As much as He wants you to.

| If people came to your house and did and said things that come out of that 
| box, would you want them to leave?  Especially if they were doing and saying 
| these things in front of your children?

	Again, you have reverted back to the, "You must watch everything on tv"
scenerio. Move past that.

| >>	Oh.... of course. Why allow Him to show you something that is going on
| >>in His planet. I mean, that would be oh so wrong of Him to do.

| How much of what's shown on TV is Truth, with a capital 'T'?

	Maybe that's what He wants you to deal with.

| What other possible reason could there be to watch sit-coms, ball games, cop 
| shows, movies, rock concerts, nature shows, news programs, etc?  

	Bacause if He led you to watch it He had a purpose in mind? What other
reason could there be?

| I am only stating it from the point of view of God's scripture. There is no 
| other valid point of view,

	If you had done that, you wouldn't have stated something that was
false.

| >>	Please show me where God said that TV is bad for you.

| I believe that the scriptures I referenced inveighing against allowing your 
| senses to be exposed to incontinence and violence presented as normal behavior
| speak for themselves.

	What it speaks of is if that happened, didn't you not include Him into
the picture? I mean, if He is there, could any of this happened? 

| >>	I have not stated my feelings on the Bible. I have only said that God
| >>uses other tools. Nothing more, nothing less. If you perceive it as me saying
| >>something different, then you have made a mistake. I would hope in the future
| >>you would not make claims about what I am saying, without knowing. Ask, don't
| >>tell.

| You have not quoted one verse of scripture in support of your position.

	The, don't judge a book by it's cover? Where does it say that in the
Bible? If it isn't that verse, which verse did I quote, and how does it back
your position?


Glen

	Joe, good question. I pray to Him before I write my notes. 

        Because I've seen the difference up front in the witness and
        strength of homes that have rid themselves of the Monochial
        Maniacal Menace, the difference these folks have made in the world
        around them, utterly unnoticed, incidentally, by the TeeVee talking
        heads, and comparing that to homes in which there was TV, I must
	disagree with Glen that God wants us to try to use TV to learn
	about Him and what He wants.

        Glen, you left out the specifics in your story, which was filled
        with benign generalities.  I've heard the same kind of testimonies
        from New Age and Astrology witnesses.

        God says clearly in His Word that we are to study His word, to
        delight in it, and to eschew exhibitions of froward behaviors. You
        can't learn about God or teach about God or sing about God or go
        about God's business ministering to the needy of this world while
	sitting motionless staring at a TV.  You can say that you can, but
	you bump up against God's Word and the clear testimony of those
	who've rid themselves of this silly distraction.

        I'll take the Gospel of John over X-Men any day, and the Book of
        Acts over Highway to Heaven, and the Church Hymnal over the silly
        commercial jingles.  

	May the Holy Ghost of God fill you and call you, each of you, to
	the Holiness implied by His first name.

	TonyC
	

        You know, it is possible for God to get your attention through a TV
        show. God will do whatever He can to get the attention of one who
        He is calling.   Why, He can even use a jackass or a sinner like
        me.

        If you want to seek God in TV-land, the X-man, Highway to Heaven,
        ball games and beer commercials, whatever, hey, have at it.

        As for me and my house, we will seek God in the Bible, and prayer,
        and song, and worship, and praise, and Christian fellowship, and in
        the faces and needs of our family and our neighbors.

        TV is junk. Pop culture is junk.  And its fruit is evident for all
        to see.  The fruit of those who supplant TV and its harlot sister
        pop culture with Scripture and Service is not as easy to see, not
        being nationally telecast, but it is observable particularly in
        their generations.

	1st Thessalonians 4:7
	  For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto HOLINESS.

	Y'ain't gonna find much holiness on TV, but you will find a lot of
	uncleanness.  You decide.

	God's grace and mercy and love and holiness to you all.

	TonyC
	  
	

RE: <<< Note 800.119 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>>mean, who would have thought the X-men would have a show that delt with faith
>>in God? That at the end, Logan, who had lost his faith, got down on his knees
>>and prayed to Him?

        So, did he pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus the Son in
        the Holy Spirit?  Or was this the generic, lowest-common-denominator,
	safe-for-TV, Hollywood-Madison-Ave god?

	Last night I happened to fall asleep with the tv on. When I woke up
they were rerunning the news. What story were they running? It was one about
this little girl who had been bitten in the face by a dog, but was able to get
up and help her friend, who was being attacked by the dog. The entire time she
was praising God, wasn't crying why me, but saying everything happens for a
reason, His reasons. (paraphrasing) I don't need to wonder who happened to wake
me at at the precise time that story was on. I know who it was. God. I guess
when I had woken up I could have just shut off the tv, but I didn't. He showed
me a story that had praise for Him. Now, did He want me to see the faith this
little girl had in Him? Did He want me to see someone praising Him up and down?
Did He want me to see, and then tell others that tv can be a good thing if He
uses you? Does He have a situation somewhere down the road that this will be
useful? To be honest, I really don't know. It could be one, some, or all those
reasons plus more. That will be up to Him to decide how the information gets
used. But I can tell you this, it was He who brought me out of a deep sleep to
watch it. To think that all the other stories that were on I slept through, but
was awake for this one. How great He is!


Glen

| <<< Note 800.121 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| Because I've seen the difference up front in the witness and strength of homes
| that have rid themselves of the Monochial Maniacal Menace, the difference 
| these folks have made in the world around them, utterly unnoticed, 
| incidentally, by the TeeVee talking heads, and comparing that to homes in 
| which there was TV, I must disagree with Glen that God wants us to try to use 
| TV to learn about Him and what He wants.

	If you would, please give me some specifics. Are you trying to compare
those who watch tv in the normal household to those who don't watch tv at all?
If that is the case, it is not comparing apples and oranges. Do you believe the
average household is talking directly to Him about what to watch? That's why
you can't compare what I am saying to the average household. If you were to
take the above and use the method I am talking about, which is to have Him
guide you with your viewing, you get totally different results, don't you? 

| Glen, you left out the specifics in your story, which was filled with benign 
| generalities.  

	I gave you what I will. I don't need to spill my personal life details
to you. I don't even know you. There are few people that I spill my families
stuff to. You will have to accept that the stories, while generalized, are
true. Someday maybe, if we were to become close, I would fill you in with the
details. Until that time, there is too much in them to talk about in here.

| You can't learn about God or teach about God or sing about God or go about 
| God's business ministering to the needy of this world while sitting motionless
| staring at a TV.  

	You know, I agree with what you just said above 100%. To sit motionless
staring at the tv isn't going to get anything accomplished with Him. But to
involve Him in with the tv will. Imagine, you look at the tv guide and pray.
Say out of all the stuff out there He shows you one show (whatever kind of show
He chooses) to watch. While you watch it you pray He will show you the message.
During the commercials you could discuss the show with your family, if they are 
present. So many ways of involving Him with your viewing. So yes, motionless tv
viewing isn't going to work. Involving Him, will.



Glen

| <<< Note 800.123 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| So, did he pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus the Son in the Holy 
| Spirit?  

	He prayed to God, and asked Him to forgive him from the anger he had
towards Him. Pretty strong message if you ask me. 

Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.126 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

| So, did he pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus the Son in the Holy 
| Spirit?  

>>	He prayed to God, and asked Him to forgive him from the anger he had
>>towards Him. Pretty strong message if you ask me. 

	Yep, the generic, lowest-common-denominator, one-size-fits-all,
	safe-for-TV, hollywood-Madison-Ave god. 

	Hey, here's a strong message for Hollywood:

	Mark 8:38
	  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in
	this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son
	of man be ahsamed, when He cometh in the glory of his Father with
	the holy angels.

	Romans 1:16
	  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power
	of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew
	first, and also to the Greek.
	  

| <<< Note 800.127 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| Yep, the generic, lowest-common-denominator, one-size-fits-all, safe-for-TV, 
| hollywood-Madison-Ave god.

	Wow..... how can you, a human, put any kind of degree on it? How can
you, a human, who never even saw it, put any kind of degree on it? Let me tell
you, it was to the point, and quite powerful. AND, considering the majority of
the people watching the show are kids, the message gets across on the level
that they would be able to understand. 

	For a show that usually doesn't even mention God to have someone get
down on their knees and pray for forgiveness to even happen, that is a powerful
message in itself. But of course, it doesn't appear to meet your standards. It
really doesn't have to, as long as it meets His. 

	A perfect world doesn't revolve around shouted words, around your or my
standards. The perfect world revolves around His standards, around His words.
What tool he uses to get a message out, at what level (subtle to scream) He
chooses to get the message out, is really up to Him, not us. If the message is
out, should we be questioning how loudly? How subtle? 

	For a show of that calibur to even mention God, to have someone get
down on their knees, who do you think had them do that? Hollywood? Or was it
God using people to get his message out?



Glen

	BTW Tony, will you be replying to .124 & .125?

 We appear to be stuck in this discussion, and I doubt there is going to 
 be agreement between the 2 main contributors.


 How about if we just cool it for a while, gentlemen?




 Jim 

	Jim, while we (Tony & myself) may not agree, aren't there good points
being made?

    TonyC's right.  God even used Balaam's donkey so TV isn't beyond his
    realm.  The problem here is why God has to use strange and unusual
    interfaces.  If we're living as we should, God will communicate with us
    much more through prayer, worship, and study of His Word.  It's not
    that complicated.  The majority of the people on TV are displaying
    Godless fruit so watching them is hindering our spiritual growth.
    
    Mike

	Mike, what you stated makes perfect sense. But you have to admit that
we're not all living as He would want us. By us, I mean everyone on this
planet. So He uses tv to get messages out. He uses street signs to get messages
out. He uses the Bible to get messages out. But whatever He uses, the same
common denominator comes into play. He is the one who chose which tool to
answer.

	It seems that everyone is talking from the standpoint that people
should just watch tv. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is bring
God into the tv scene. By us doing that, we are being concious about what we
are doing. By talking with Him during the show, we are staying concious with
Him. What ends up happening is no matter how bad tv is, if we are one with Him,
He will lead us to watch what He thinks is important. Like I said, it does not
mean you will spend every night in front of the tube all night long. What it
means is you are working with Him on choosing the shows He wants you to view.



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.132 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

>>    The problem here is why God has to use strange and unusual
>>    interfaces.  If we're living as we should, God will communicate with us
>>    much more through prayer, worship, and study of His Word.  It's not
>>    that complicated.  The majority of the people on TV are displaying
>>    Godless fruit so watching them is hindering our spiritual growth.
    
	Amen, brother.

	Blessings,
		TonyC
	

RE: <<< Note 800.129 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>>	BTW Tony, will you be replying to .124 & .125?

	No, I've had quite enough, thank you.

        The only thing that changes lives for the glory of God is a real-
        life encounter with the real Jesus Christ of the Bible, not a
        two-dimensional Hollywood counterfeit god presented in the context
        of a television fantasy. 

	Tony, I guess you will live your life as you see fit. My only hope is
that in the end, it was equal to the way He would want you to live.





Glen

Glen, at risk of entering the fray, you misread my  note.

I wasn't thinking of "me, me, me".  The point I was trying
to make was that watching TV takes away time.  During 
a time when most people watch TV, they don't interact.  This
is pretty much true at our house.  The time spent feeding 
"me" or whoever is watching TV isn't available to interact, 
serve, etc. others.  I think that it's tough to do it the other 
way - use time with TV as a time to be edified by the 
spirit.  That's not the intent of the medium, and it's certainly
not the usual experience of most people.  If that's the way 
you do it, great.  I'm curious as to how it improves the time
you spend in relationship with other people.

Don

| <<< Note 800.138 by NWD002::BAYLEY::Randall_do "Software:  Making Hardware Useful" >>>

| The point I was trying to make was that watching TV takes away time. During a 
| time when most people watch TV, they don't interact. This is pretty much true 
| at our house.  

	That's how it is for most people. But what if you included Him to the
picture? Think about it. With Him involved, doesn't it involve interacting?

| That's not the intent of the medium, 

	I agree with the above. But does it mean it can't? With Him, aren't all
things possible?

| and it's certainly not the usual experience of most people.  

	But we aren't dealing with most people. We're dealing with those who
would allow Him to show them what to, or not to watch. Pretty big difference,
don't you think?

| If that's the way you do it, great. I'm curious as to how it improves the time
| you spend in relationship with other people.

	If I'm not watching the tv alone, why wouldn't I be able to interact
with others while watching? The majority of the time, if I watch tv, I am alone
though. It's usually right before I go to bed, as I am usually out before then.


Glen

  After an evening of watching television, even if it is some nature program
 or something that truly interests me (baseball, some historical thing) I always
 find myself thinking...man, I could have spent time in God's Word..I could have
 been praying for my pastor, his family, the Deacons in my church, my kids,
 my neighbors..I could have been listening to some wonderful Christian music,
 I could have been doing this or that, seeking a deeper relationship with the
 Lord..

 It's kind of like going out to eat and ordering a hot dog, when also on the
 menu are healthier choices..yeah, with the hot dog you satisified your hunger..
 but with the healthier choices, you can satisfy your hunger, *and* take care
 of your bodies physical needs.

 Television is a time waster.  Sure, God can show you somethign through tele-
 vision..heck, I became convinced that God is real by watching nature shows..
 but generally it is a time waster.



 Jim

      <<< Note 800.140 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>

> find myself thinking...man, I could have spent time in God's Word..I could have
> been praying for my pastor, his family, the Deacons in my church, my kids,
> my neighbors..I could have been listening to some wonderful Christian music,
> I could have been doing this or that, seeking a deeper relationship with the
> Lord..
    
    	And even from a secular perspective I can find myself saying,
    	"I could have gone to bed at a decent hour" or "I could have
    	read through the mail" or "I could have written that letter to
    	my mother" or "I could have played a game with my kids, taken
    	the dog for a walk, read a book, spent time with my wife (instead
    	of ignoring her and perhaps letting that build resentment), or
    	so many other things...
    
> Television is a time waster.  
    
    	Exactly.

	It's funny, kind of, that there appears to me some in here who view tv
as a waste of time, but watch it anyways. And judging by their lists of things
they could have done, they must watch it quite often. :-)


Glen

 You're right, Glen.  I've never said I don't watch it.  And it is
 a time waster, as I've said it is. And I could have been doing those
 things instead of watching it.  And I am doing more of those things.



 Jim

    I had the misfortune of watching the Simpsons last night.  Incredible. 
    Normally, I think nothing of this show- even get a chuckle or two out
    of it- but they went above and beyond bad taste last night.  Mark this
    off my "occasional watch" TV list.  Sheesh. 

 I flipped through the TV Guide yesterday to see what sort of fare they
 were offering us.  The first thing I noticed (big ad in the Guide) was
 a movie based on an incident in which a female teacher "seduced" a 15
 year old student.  I briefly watched a program on the Discovery channel
 about snakes..everything else that I could see appeared to be garbage.



 I'd heard an ad on the radio (which by the way is getting to be as bad
 or worse than TV) for the Simpson's (which I've never watched) which 
 was bad enough.  I could just imagine what the program would have
 been like.


 
Jim

    -1
    
    Let's just say it wasn't Christian-friendly in the least.  It spun the
    act of baptism as something horrid- something Homer had to save his
    kids from.
    
    I have thick skin.  This particular episode got under it, to say the
    least.  
    
    
    -steve

 Terrific.  

RE: <<< Note 800.146 by CSOA1::LEECH "Dia do bheatha." >>>

	Hell is filled with nice guys like Homer Simpson.	

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 800.148                     What about TV?                       148 of 148
BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo"                                  9 lines   2-OCT-1995 15:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	Steve, you forgot the part where they played the Christian game, and
had a question for Bart and Lisa to answer. They asked who this was. He is
known as the horned beast, the evil one, etc..... Bart's answer was, "Jesus?"



Glen

    .149
    
    This makes me very sick to my stomach.  Not your saying it Glen, but
    the fact that it was said.  David Wilkerson prophesized in the early
    70's that within 25 years we would see cartoons used for immoral and
    anti-God purposes.  I was at the crusade when he prophesized.  I
    remember thinking, "Never happen!"
    
    Remember all those things we thought would never happen and are now
    common place in society???
    
    He's coming again!!! :-) 
    He's coming again!!!!
    May be morning, may be noon, may be evening, it will be soon.
    He's coming again,
    Jesus is coming again!!!! :-)

    
>    Remember all those things we thought would never happen and are now
>    common place in society???
    
>    He's coming again!!! :-) 
>    He's coming again!!!!
>    May be morning, may be noon, may be evening, it will be soon.
>    He's coming again,
>    Jesus is coming again!!!! :-)



 Amen..as my friend Ron and I were saying tonight, it can't be much longer..day
 by day, minute by minute this old world is getting sicker and sicker..



 Jim

  I wonder...Glen, you tell us we should pray when reading the TV
 Guide, or when looking for guidance as to what to watch on TV, so I
 assume you do the same.  Did God really lead you to watch something
 on TV where the name of His son was ridiculed?  Where the very ordinances
 He gave us are ridiculed?  My Bible tells us that God can not sin, nor will
 He lead us to sin or participate in the glorification there of, and here
 is a TV program where the very name of the Lord Jesus Christ, who died
 to save souls, is used in place of Satan? (and I bet there were plenty
 of canned guffaws).

 Can you explain this, Glen? Did you just sit and watch, or leap up and turn
 the TV off?  


 Jim

A question for you Glen.  Please answer honestly. When Bart said "Jesus?,"
what was your response?

  Were you appalled by the mocking of the precious Name of Christ?

  Did you think it in poor taste, but mostly ignore it?

  Were you simply numbed to it?

  Did you appreciate the humor?

  Did you laugh along with it?

Paul

    re: .149 
    
    Glen's right, I missed that one.  Thank God.  The baptism scene was
    enough to turn my stomach all on its own.
    
    
    -steve

    <<< Note 800.150 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    the fact that it was said.  David Wilkerson prophesized in the early
>    70's that within 25 years we would see cartoons used for immoral and
>    anti-God purposes.  
    
    	I know this is the TV topic, but just to add to what you wrote,
    	you'd be horrified at what is readily available in cornerstore
    	comic books in Japan.

    Japan?????
    
    My oldest son was thrilled when we found a sports store that only sold
    sports paraphenalia, i.e., cards, helmets, footballs, all signed by the
    athletic stars WITHOUT comic books.
    
    He was collecting comic books and my dear friend Steve Leech
    contributed to this current collection, but Matthew said just last
    week, "Mom, I'm giving up comics because even superman is evil looking
    now.  I'm so glad we found this store so I don't have to go to the
    comic store to buy my basketball/football/baseball cards."
    
    He's only 12, and I was so proud of him to decide on his own that not
    only are comics unChristian, but he doesn't need to patronize or have
    his eyes filled with the latest covers.
    
    Nancy

	Comics and cartoons are part of pop culture, so they are not
	off-topic and fair game for discussion here, as far as I'm
	concerned (see .0).  

        Back in the late '70's, before my Wife and I met the Lord, my son,
        who was pre-pubescent at the time, was into the whole Japanese,
        space-opera, godzilla subcult.  He had these metamorphic,
        multi-function, anthropoid toys with utterly demonic apparel,
        accoutrements, appurtenances, and appliances.  Nasty imaginoids,
        not suitable for Christian youth.  I remember his favorite cartoons
	as being these Japanese things featuring the same demonic junk,
	having plots as thin as ice in May.

	What garbage.

	

    	The Japanese comic books I was referring to depict the torture,
    	rape, and sexual abuse of women in rather graphic detail.  It
    	gives those Japanese men something to read on their long commutes
    	on the trains, and helps them take their minds off of the grinding
    	pace they keep for 10 hours a day at work.  Some people point to
    	these comics as proof that pornography does NOT cause sexual
    	perversion or rapes, for in spite of the prevalence of these
    	comics, Japan has one of the lowest sex crime rates in the 
    	industrial world.

RE: <<< Note 800.158 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

        You just have to wait 'til the Japanese get involved in a war,
        again.  When I used to watch TV, Discover showed film of Japanese
        soldiers actually doing some of those things to Chinese citizens
        and laughing about it while they did it. In fact, they filmed it as
        part of their boastful, haughty attitude.  Also shown were the
        summary executions of men, women, children, and American soldiers. 
        They considered other peoples to be of a lower evolutionary status,
        so these things were quite all right.  Hitler believed and
        perpetrated the same crimes.

        Jesus Himself said that if you relish the crime, it's the same to
        Him as if you did it.  Another good reason to stay away from
        perverse and wicked images like the swill served up on the TV. 

| <<< Note 800.152 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "But what are they among so many?" >>>


| I wonder...Glen, you tell us we should pray when reading the TV Guide, or when
| looking for guidance as to what to watch on TV, so I assume you do the same.  

	All the time, no. 

| Did God really lead you to watch something on TV where the name of His son was
| ridiculed?  

	Jim, yes. And if you think of it, my talking of the episode confirmed
something Nancy heard that would happen 25 years ago. Something that she had
said at the time would never happen. Maybe that was the message He wanted
reveiled.

	And to answer your other question, I continued to watch. If I had heard
the 1st thing and turned it off, I guess then no one would have confirmed what
Nancy had heard 25 years ago. So who knows why He has us do the things He has
us do? I certainly don't.



Glen

| <<< Note 800.153 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>



| Did you think it in poor taste, 

    Whoever wrote about the Japanese comics can't remember who now... those
    same comics do exist here... I think, because quite frankly the covers
    of them depict half naked women in violent positions.

    	In the Japanese ones, Nancy, the women aren't half naked, and they
    	usually have nothing to do with heros and villains like comic books
    	here do.

Tough one, Barry.  I'm not sure how I'd deal with it.  Have you tried getting
those soft ear plugs to block out the noise of the TV, then sitting next to
her on the couch while you read/study?  It would demonstrate to her your
committment to be with her, while not being drawn in to the TV yourself.  It
makes a quiet statement against so much focus on TV (which is not a good
thing to fill one's heart with), without making a harsh judgement.

Paul

    This is a reply to note 800.164
    
    Gid Day Barry. I was going to respond in this discussion early,
    however, here in Kanata our Quarter end was very busy. In fact we
    shippped over 16,100 PC's last week. An average week would be between
    7500 and 9000. I'm glad I waited till today. What I have to say I think
    might be valuable to you Barry and maybe others.
    
    I was at a wedding recently and the father of the bride spoke to the
    newly wed couple. He hoped that their life would be filled with JOY.
    Jesus first, Others second and Yourself third.  If you do this your
    life will be filled with much JOY he explained.
    
    I would suggest for all of us with families and Tv. That for there to
    be JOY in our family life we put Jesus first, our family members second
    and TV or yourself third.
    
    In prayer with my spouse and children I would ask God the Father for 
    wisdom on how to put Jesus first in our life and in our family life.
    Also to remove anything that is preventing a complete relationship
    with Jesus. Give God the permission and obediance. If we are willing
    God will let you know big time. 
    
    It is the will of the Father that we all have a relationship with His
    son Jesus. This prayer will be answered. It is heaven on earth.
    
    I'd like to say more but I must go now.
    
    Steve.
    
    
     
    

    Barry,
    
    This is a very hard one.  What I am about to say is all in supposition,
    if it touches anything truthful it is merely by divine intervention.
    
    I am sensing that your rejection of the TV in her life inasmuch is a
    rejection of "her".  She is inadequate or lesser than you because YOU
    aren't addicted to the TV.  Therefore, while she may not even recognize
    this her behavior may become very defensive over this issue.  Again,
    I'm not in your home, but I can see a wall between you and your wife.
    
    This wall has not been built one brick at a time.  It came in chunks.
    Communication is not strong because all of her ability to express emotion 
    is glued to living it through someone else.  Mainly the characters on TV.
    They give her the outage that she requires.  She's unable to emote from 
    human to human for any length of time or in any true depth.  I'd even 
    venture to say that this is true of her own womanhood, not fully 
    understanding its uniqueness and purpose.
    
    I believe that Cheryl doesn't feel safe in expressing those deep
    emotions in connecting with you and her children. There is a need to 
    be in control for the lack thereof would mean weakness and
    vulnerability.
    
    But I also sense that you have some of these same issues.  That you are
    a man who needs to be drawn out like water from a well.  That you are
    very slow to make decisions and think things through inwardly before
    speaking.  
    
    I also think that you are going through a change in your life, one that
    is so profound that you took the risk of vulnerability by airing a
    familial problem.  
    
    Honestly, I don't think the TV is the issue ... its the symptom.  The
    symptom of training enjoyed as a child on how not to communicate within
    a family.  You basically said so yourself.  
    
    The question is, can she face this?  What behavior do you have the
    enables her to shut down and turn on the TV?  
    
    I'd suggest that you to begin by getting a calendar and scheduling
    family nights.  Games, "pajama ride thru McD's for a milkshake?", etc. 
    BTW, how old are your kids?  Of course family night activities would be
    driven by their ages.  I have a book entitle, "10 minute memory makers
    for your family".   These are GREAT activities for families to do
    together to make memories to last a life time.  
    
    If your wife doesn't get involved, then you and the children should not
    be deprived of these evenings.  Don't enable her behavior by canceling
    your family life.  She cannot feel an absence when nothing is
    happening.
    
    With much love,
    Your Sis,
    Nancy
    
    

    	re .164
    
    	Barry --
    
    	For Christmas or for her next birthday, give your wife the gift
    	of a Marriage Encounter weekend.  Trust me that this issue will
    	be addressed if you go.

    
    	Barry - don't listen to Nancy!  I taught my family about
    	"pajama runs" this summer (after reading one of Nancy's notes)
    	and my daughter became immediately addicted (in fact, she wanted
    	to go again right after we got home !  ;-)
    
    	From my side, I saw the picture differently.  You don't want
    	to watch the TV, but you want to be together with your wife.
    	However, in that time, you want to be able to study or read.
    	Cheryl's choices beyond TV basically become *your* choices
    	for her.  I know that subconsciously, I rebel when I feel Jamie
    	has left me without choices.  For example, if he is watching 
    	a football game, and I'm not interested, yet he wants us to 
    	be together, I feel stuck and resentful.  Fortunately, I usually
    	like to watch the game.  However, I know how Cheryl feels.  After
    	the kids go to bed, I do need to wind down, and reading seems
    	too much work.  I do usually resort to TV, but am trying more and
    	more to select things that Jamie and I can watch together.  Lately,
    	we have been spending more of that time just talking, tuning out
    	whatever's on the TV to the point where we could really just
    	shut it off.
    
    	The difficulty is that you have things you *need* to do, but you
    	want to be with Cheryl, too.  I think there needs to be some 
    	acceptance that when you are studying, she doesn't really need 
    	to be at your side.  Would it be possible to set a time that
    	you finish studying by, and then it's husband and wife time ?
    
    	Jamie and I like games (cribbage, chess, backgammon).  We usually
    	only play on vacation, but we've had some wonderful nights where
        we shut off the TV, build a fire, and play cribbage for a couple
        hours.  I am going to suggest bringing out the games as an
    	alternative to TV (though there are some nights that we're just
    	plain busy, like with bills and laundry, such that Jamie goes
    	to bed before I'm even done).
    
    	Another idea is books on tape.  We're ordering two this week,
    	The Triumphant Marriage by Dr. Neil Clark Warren and The New
    	Dare to Discipline by Dr. James Dobson.  Jamie gets books
    	on tape from the Talking Book Library because of his low-vision,
    	and finds these far more useful than the TV.  He's got a walkman
    	and a waist pack, so he can put in a tape and listen through the
    	headphones, and we can be in the same room.  We'll probably
    	listen to the "family" books together, but Cheryl might find
    	them interesting while you're studying in the same room.
    
    	I've got more ideas, but *do* need to go now!
    
    	Karen
    

    Karen brings up an interesting point; when a husband and wife do not
    have an understanding over submission.  What is submission and should
    it include a woman's choices being taken over by her husband?
    
    But even if this is so, lack of communication is still the culprit and
    the question remains, Why is there lack therof?
    
    Hey, my Pastor taught me about pajama runs! :-)
    

    .174
    
    In response to alienating her.... uhmmm that wasn't the intent of my
    suggestion.  Let me try to do better.
    
    When you get out the calendar to schedule family nights, it is WITH
    her, not without her.  She is just as much a part of the commitment as
    you.  One of the caveats at doing this is once the kids are in bed, it
    now becomes husband/wife night.
    
    If she decides that TV is her choice on a night that is scheduled for
    family night, then you and kids need to continue without her.  The kids
    will try to drag her along [if I know kids].
    
    BUT, this all is contingent upon YOUR ability to follow through with
    the scheduled events.  Hectic schedules are in every household.  My
    Pastor in one of his messages told us that we will live our lives in
    regret of what we should've done if we don't schedule our lives.  He
    said that people always find time for what they really want to do.  I
    guess my question/challenge is, is this really something you WANT to
    do?
    
    Love you mucho,
    Nancy
    
    P.S.
    Sorry if I know you too well!  :-)

    .176
    
    the movie, "The Mask" left me extremely agitated and uncomfortable,
    inspite of its comic value.  It was moral less!

Hi Nancy,

I presume that's not the sort of movie I was referring to!  
I don't know it, or its reputation.  The outward label the world stamps on 
a movie is no guarantee of its acceptability.

							Andrew

	Speaking of movies, I saw, "7" last night. It starred Morgan Freeman
and Brad Pitt. It's a story about someone who is killing people for committing
the 7 deadly sins. Not a movie for the squeemish. In fact, it makes, "Silence
of the Lambs" seem like a Disney movie. 



Glen

 Well, I'm afraid that won't be on my "must see" list.




 Jim

Keep it up, Glen.  Your listing of the fare the "God told you" to watch is
quite illuminating.

There's nothing more that I could say that could add to what you've already
said about yourself.

Paul

	Don't worry, Paul, despite your flaws, I still love you.

    Hello Barry, I like the idea of a Family night one day of the week
    where each week a different family member gets to choose the activity.
    This would be a good beginning. You could set guidlines where an
    activitly could not be repeated twice in a row.
    
    Over the last couple of years the Lord has really changed my life. He
    is so real to me I can't explain it in only a few words. It all began
    with that simple prayer - Lord if there is anything in the middle of my
    relationship with you let me know. 
    
    It might not be easy but when Jesus does the pruning you know there
    will be fruit.
    
    I do enjoy TV, perhaps too much. I have been asking the Lord to help
    me. My interest in TV is diminishing. What upsets me now and upset
    isn't a srong enough word is that I will watch TV and not spend time
    with Jesus. How can I have a relationship with Jesus and spend more
    time watching TV than reading the Bible or praying. 
    
    I'm like your wife Barry, I like to unwind watching TV. Its easier.
    
    I know know that I have a lot of growing up to do. Reading the bible
    and coming before the Lord should be easier. It should be a priority.
    I love the Lord so much yet I still find it hard to spend an hour each
    day with Jesus. I need help in time management. 
    
    I trully beleive that there is nothing more important than our
    relationship with Jesus. I have learned life in abundance through Him
    who loves me. Jesus is the truth the way and the life.
    
    Without the Holy Spirit I cannot know Jesus, with out Jesus I cannot
    please the Father, and without Gods grace I can do nothing.  
    
    My prayer for you and your family is that God will touch each one of
    you in a special way with His son Jesus. That as Jesus and the Father
    are one that you and your wife be as one. In marriage God made you and
    you wife one person. May the great love you have for your wife today be
    even greater tommorrow. In Jesus name I ask Father, for these blessings
    and more, for your glory. Amen!
    
    Your brother in Christ,
    
    Steve Downey.

RE: <<< Note 800.183 by POLAR::DOWNEY >>>

        Yes, Steve, it's the struggle with the flesh that Paul so aptly
        portrays in Romans 7.  Keep seeking the holiness of God, and the
        temptations of the flesh will fall away one-by-one.  Some of us may
        have beaten the TV, but there are other things in the flesh we must
        still battle with.  Keep striving for perfection.  I can see your
        desire for that. Though we may not attain it in this life, it is
        still our goal.  I believe that the only time one is really sinless
        is when he is on his face, prostrated and broken before the Lord
        and seeking His forgiveness for the transgressions occuring since
        the interval from the last such submission. 

	God bless you!

        Barry, plesae allow me to suggest taking your wife out to eat or to
        visit her mom or other loved ones on a nightly basis.  Bring the
        kids along, too, even if it's just to Mickey Dee's.  I cannot in
        good conscience recommend movies, night clubs, or other tawdry
        entertainment, but visiting the folks is a good way to break away
	from the toob.  Try getting her excited about visiting elderly and
	sick folks.  Disabled vets would love company, too.  Bring the
	kids.  Nothing cheers up most people than to see the shining
	countenances of children, especially if they can sing or recite
	poetry and Scripture.  Try to form a family choir!  Find something
	Godly that your wife likes better than TV and do it.  Visiting Mom
	and dinner out is usually a real good start. 

	Praying for you, brother,

	TonyC

    	re .172
    
    	For Marriage Encounter call
    
    	800-975-LOVE.  It takes your name, number, zip code, and maybe
    	some other stuff, and then a person from your locality will get
    	in touch with you for details about local weekends.

 I just called my cable company can cancelled all of the cable channels...
 I'll still receive the local broadcast channels, but will be weaning myself
 off of those..also cuts my monthly bill down by about $20!




 Jim

    I was talking with some friends the other day about the evil influences
    in our lives and how we can be opressed by the evil one. The
    conclusion we came to was the following:
    
    50 years ago you'd really have to go out of your way and bang on the
    devils door in order to open yourself up to his evil
    words/pictures/actions/etc. Today christians are totally surrounded by
    the devil and his filth - his junk spews out at us from the TV, the
    radio, video, films, theatre, computers, even our working environment.
    His porn fills the shelves at the shops, the newspapers have pictures
    and describee sick things (as do magazines). I'm sure there's a
    scripture in Revelation about the devils hosts ssurrounding the
    faithful's camps but I can't find it.
    
    I guess we all need to be aware of all this junk that is spewed out at
    us - and realise that if we are to stay clean we need to avoid this
    junk and do our best to wash our minds with the water of Gods Word, to
    get cleanseed in the precious blood of Jesus and to allow Gods holy
    fire to purge us of those things which contaminate us.
    
    It's a narrow path we are called to tread and I think we all need to
    ask the Lord to show us where it needs to be even narrower.
    
    Love
    Ben

	Ben, don't be fooled by the picture that was painted 50 years ago. It
was just that, a picture. So many things went on back then, and they were all
hushed under the carpet. Not hearing about and not having things go on are two
different things. A painted picture is not always a good reflection of what is
going on.



Glen

    .187 Praise the Lord!!!
    
    Its interesting... Last evening I was able to get my ex-husband to SHUT
    OFF the TV at his house. :-)  That is he picks up the boys after school
    and too often they are left to watch TV WHILE doing homework.  Clayton
    who gets bored EASILY finds TV to be contentment.  I believe that is
    due to the fact that it changes often enough from commercial to
    cartoons, to sitcoms every 1/2 hour which goes along with his level of
    concentration.  Let me state here that Clayton is an A student.  He's
    very bright, can read things and retain the information without much 
    effort.  Thus, creating a sense of boredom.
    
    I pointed this out to Rafael and he actually responded positively!!!
    
    

 50 years ago evil was pushed under the carpet.  People *knew* what was evil
 and didn't tolerate it.  Today evil is right out in the open and glorified..
 Check your local newspaper at some of the movies out today and see what the
 topic is.  Look at the TV listings of the daytime talk shows, look at the
 typical sitcom and the subject matter, and then look at how those who 
 stand for traditional values and how they are treated.




 Jim

RE:  <<< Note 800.187 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Red Sox..the tradition continues" >

	Glory to His name!!  Praise God!  There's 20 more dollars to apply
	to God's work or extracting yourself from any debt you may have!

        We cut the cable at the end of the Gulf war, only a few years after
        it became available in our area.  Where we are, there is no
        reception to speak of without a roof antenna, which we never had,
        so we were cut-off from real-time tv and were limited to the damage
        we could do with the vcr.  At first, we resolved to only watch a
        videotape once a week, with the tv relegated to the attic the rest
        of the week.

        Incrementally, the tv began to spend less time in the attic and
        more time in the living room.  One of the first things my daughter
        began to ask me after I got home was, "Can we watch a show
        tonight?"  Now, granted, the strongest stuff we had was Gospel
        Bill, Ann of Green Gables, Christie, Little House on the Prairie,
        and a passel of old movies.  But I began to see some fidgeting
        during our nightly worship, and noticed that eyes were being
        directed to the tv, even though it was off.  I pulled the plug on
        the vcr and put the tv back in the attic.  We haven't watched the
	thing in I don't know how long.  We started a family choir instead,
	and are learning to sing the hymns in harmonies.

        Incidentally, those innocent sounding tv programs and movies often
        portray children as fresh to their parents and justifiably right in
        their own eyes, irrespective of Biblical principles.  The people
        never participate in family worship and almost never pray when they
        eat.  

	TonyC
	

    
    There is only one way to be opressed by the evil one and
    by his minions. Resist him.
    
    If you resist evil he will overcome you for his power is only by
    the rebellion of the flesh.  
    
    God's power is made manifest in those who are weak. Not those who
    resist evil.  To resist evil is to not know the love of Christ.  
    
    To resist evil is to not have submitted to God's love and accept
    His grace for you.
    
    Did not your Lord tell you by Matthew to not resist evil.  
    
    Your mind will make demands of you even in the name of religious
    purity.  It will say you should do this and you should not do that.
    It will give you conditions that are acceptable to you to please or
    appease God.  This is not Christ.  Christ the truth is known only in
    the heart.  To know Christ is to know the Love within the depth of the
    heart and to know that love is to know oneself.
    
    In that love there is no rebellion nor desire to resist evil. In that
    love there is only the desire to lay down Your life.
    
    Can you see that to resist evil is to hold onto your own life, to
    protect your life, to control your life.  The truth is you are not in
    control only the Lord is.  You cannot protect your life, only God will
    let you stand or let you fall.  So then to attempt to do so is to do
    exactly what Satan wants and his power will play you like a musical
    instrument while you struggle and fight and resist.
    
    The Way of Christ is to submit to God's will and to lay down your
    life. To surrender within your heart to what God has for you. 
    
    When you have received this revelation, and you may receive it if
    you ask and believe that you shall receive it, for it is only by
    revelation that you may come to know the Love of Christ, the evil one
    will in no wise touch you, nor will you be confounded by those things
    that you cling to in your mind.
    
    Beware religiousity for there is a fine line between walking according
    to the revelation of Jesus Christ in ones heart and following the law
    with ones mind. Once crossed from the mind to the heart the line
    becomes a gorge infinitely deep and infinitely wide and you will know
    for certain that you have crossed over into Love.
    
    

| <<< Note 800.191 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend, will you be ready?" >>>



| 50 years ago evil was pushed under the carpet.  People *knew* what was evil
| and didn't tolerate it.  

	Marriages lasting even when women were being battered, kids abused.
Children getting pregnant were secretly carted off for abortions, or to places
where they could have their kids and give them up for adoption... but all along
the secret. What of the priests who molested children? Sorry, Jim. I can't say 
it wasn't tolerated as much as hidden. 

| Today evil is right out in the open and glorified..

	I'd rather be able to face it and know what I am facing than to have it
go by the wayside. I refer to the above for examples of that.





Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.193 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>

        Some well made points, sir, but what does this have to do with TV
        and resisting the temptations of the flesh?

        As much as we should be on guard against superficial religiosity,
        we mus also guard against the lust of the flesh, the lust of the
        eyes, and the pride of life.  Remember, daily prayer, worship, and
        Bible study is religious.  That doesn't make it bad.  What makes
        religion bad is superficiality, insincerity, and shallowness.  Are
        we not called to "forsake not the gathering together of
        yourselves"?  Isn't it religious to meet on specified days for
        worship, prayer, instruction, fellowship?  Isn't it religious to
        "do these things in remembrance of me"?  The concern is not over
        doing those things, nor over seeking to stablish the Holiness of
        God in our lives.  The concern is over the heart condition behind
        these activities.

	If, however, the activity in question can be shown to be a
	detriment to the work of God, to the advancement of Holiness and
	sanctification in the life of the believer, and the separation of
	th believer from the temptations of the flesh, then it should be
	spurned.

	TonyC	

>	Ben, don't be fooled by the picture that was painted 50 years ago. 

Ben's not fooled by the picture of 50 years ago.  No one's trying to say that
evil didn't exist.  Of course it did, evil has always existed and always will
until Christ returns.

But there is a vast, vast difference between life then and life now which
your entry serves to blur.  Then, evil existed mostly behind the scenes, and
was recognized as evil.  It was denounced by the popular culture, and
shamefully hidden by those who participated in it.  If you chose to
participate, you had to seek it out because it was hidden, and it was pretty
hard to hide from yourself that what you were doing was evil - you knew full
well you couldn't tell anyone and had to keep your actions hidden.

Today, evil is paraded as healthy from every angle, and people basically have
to live as recluses to avoid being bombarded by it.  For nearly any type of
sin you want to participate in, there are so many people participating in it
openly that you can completely deny, even to yourself, that your actions are
sinful.  You can look up a support group in the yellow pages. You can tell
anyone about how wonderful your sin is, and if they identify it for what it
is you can brand them as intolerant and the popular culture will back *you*.

It's the difference between Light and Dark.  Literally.

Paul

 re .194



 I'm not sure you understand what I was saying, Glen.  But, Paul explains
 it well..


 Remember Isaiah 5:20?





 Jim

re: 193 by SOLVIT::POLAND (Is it Bob?)

With Tony, I'm having a hard time figuring out how this fits with the
discussion.

And your reply seems, at least to some extent, to blur the distinction
between "resist" and "retaliate."  Jesus said not to retaliate against evil,
not to seek to hurt back those who are hurting you.

But we are called to resist evil.  James says "Resist the devil, and he will
flee."  Jesus, in his temptation in the wilderness, while He did not try to
fight back against Satan, very much put up resistance.

Paul

 What about..

  Snarf.snarfs?

RE: <<< Note 800.200 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend, will you be ready?" >>>

	Was that a snarf squared?  I wasn't ready for that.  Besides, the
	square root of 200 is an irrational number.

    
    My words go far beyond the physical realm which encompass the things of
    the world such as television. For the Lord seeks the hearts of men for 
    that is where Love is made manifest, where His Love may reside.  First
    the Love of God in the depths of the heart and then the outward acts
    are but a reflection of the Love.  You cannot become Holy by refraining
    from certain behaviour for that is a white washed seplucher full of
    dead mens bones.  First the Love of Christ, in whom all of the Kindness
    of God was given to you, then the outward flow of that Love by the
    honest release of that which is in the heart.
    
    To cast your stone at the TV is nothing more than a reaction to the sin
    that is within.  Do you know what sin is? It is nothing more than the
    denial of the truth that is revealled in the heart.  
    
    To deny the pain which is there and to seek comfort from that pain. 
    To hold oneself to be holy by the denial of the heart and the casting
    of blame at someone or something else is to not have touched the Love
    that Jesus has deposited in your hearts.
    
    Whatsoever that is not of faith is sin.  Do you know what faith is?
    
    It is written that faith is the substance of things hoped for the
    evidence of things not seen.
    
    So then if in your heart you touch the substance of the hope that
    resides there you will experience the reality of what you can not know
    with your mind.  All faith comes from the heart.  All hope comes from
    the heart and lastly but the the greatest Love comes from the heart.
    
    You are hearing me with your minds and you will not understand my words
    because I speak them from my heart where the Holy Spirit lives.
    
    If you desire to hear the word of the Lord then ask Him for the
    revelation of Love and He will open your hearts.
    
    Now concerning resisting the devil and him fleeing, the Lord knew you
    would say these things and has given you this.
    
    To resist the devil is to be filled with the Love of Christ and to
    Thank the Lord for what Satan is doing to you.  Give thanks to the
    Lord for this is the way by which Satan is resisted.  Do you see that
    it is not by your knowledge or control nor by your power or might but
    it is the laying down of your life and accepting what the Lord has for
    you.  Satan can not stand against such a humble and loving response.
    
    Satan depends upon your resistance.  Notice I said YOUR.  But to lay
    down and accept the Lord's will for you including falling into divers
    temptations brings forth the power of the Love of God.  Satan can not
    stay he must flee.  The trying of your faith worketh patience.  How
    beautiful in loving humility is the patience of the saints of God.
    
    Here is how you presently resist Satan and though it appear you are
    succeeding I see no fruit of peace in your words.  You do not face the
    pain that is in your hearts.  You resist the very way which the Holy
    Spirit wishes to show His Love to you and through you.  When you have
    recieved the wisdom from God to face the pain then ask for the wisdom
    to embrace it as a loving gift from God.
    
    Thank him for the suffering of Christ that He is granting unto you by
    His tender mercies. Surrender to the Truth, not the truth that you
    think in your minds but the truth that is in your hearts.
    
    This is the truth.  God is Love and because He is He sent His son to
    die for us.  Jesus showed us that to see the Father, to Know the
    Father, to obey Him, is to lay down your life.  Jesus then went away
    but He sent the comforter and He shows us to lay down our life.
    
    But we are blasphemers against the Holy Ghost for we seek comfort in
    something other than the comforter. 
    
    What I hear here is not the truth that comes from the heart but the
    truth of that which comes from the head. Do not be offended for we all
    start by being locked into our little head. All kinds of words come out
    from our little head but the Lord said they worship me with there
    mouths but there hearts are far from me.
    
    I do not speak these words to condemn any here but to speak hard words
    for those who want to know who they truly are in their hearts.  
    
    The mind takes up an agenda and carrys out it plans to thwart the
    enemy, wether that enemy be a person or a thing or a concept or a
    principal, good or bad, right or wrong.
    
    But the heart only wants to know the Love of Christ and sets aside all
    agendas to simply hear the still small voice of God.
    
    There is something far deeper that the Lord wants us to live out
    experientially and it is not to attack the world and demand that it
    surrender to our religious understandings.  It is simply this: Love
    your neighbor as your self.  Do you know who you are? Do you know who
    your neighbor is?
    
    If your heart condemns you because you see images on a vacuum tube then
    do not look.  If your heart does not condemn you do not let another
    judge you.  However wether you see this thing or not, ask for wisdom
    concerning who you are in your heart. You will discover that apart from
    every word that you have spoke or has been spoken to you, apart from
    everything you have seen or not seen, you want Love to Live in your
    heart.
    
    

    TV, itself, has nothing to do with sin. It is those that watch TV for
    it's exploitation. TV can be both good and bad. To cast it in sin,
    which I see a lot of it in this notesfile, is not true. There is both
    good and bad. Don't just talk about the bad.

      Hi Bob,
    
        I don't know how to 'take' your reply, but I do know that "By
        beholding we become changed" and to remove the television as
        a forum for providing a lot of crappy things to behold, one 
        can be rightly motivated.
    
        The person may simply be making a decision to perceive more on
        the level of the holy than the unholy.
    
        I admit to being scared of the idea to consider worong the idea
        to "resist evil."
    
        I don't know...maybe we're having termonology disconnects.
    
        But, this I have some conviction of...
    
        Notes like Tony C's and Jim's (where he decided to remove his
        cable) appear to me to be actuated by the Spirit of grace, i.e.
        a rightly motivated desire to modify that which one beholds day
        in and day out.
    
        If your reply is meant to cut against that simple idea, then
        I am leery.
    
        *But*, may God forgive and cleanse me of my indiscernment.  I
        acknowledge historically having a problem differentiating the
        poetic nature of your prose from the actual content so much so
        that I frankly don't know if I wrongfully attribute inspiration
        on the basis of the 'poeticness' of it rather than what its
        really saying!
    
    						Tony

      re: .203
    
      But, did you catch TonyC describing his family twitching toward
      that TV during worship time?  All the while its watching was excluded
      to things like Anne of Green Gables?
    
      Its a testimony!!!  (And I thank you for it Tony.)
    
    							Tony

    It's called shame Glen.  Once upon a time in this country it was
    shameful for certain behaviors to exist.
    
    I think that what we've done is swung the pendulum so far to rid people
    of the "shame that binds you", that we've created a society of
    shamelessness to the point of anarchy.
    
    Nancy

RE: <<< Note 800.203 by SCAS01::SODERSTROM "Bring on the Competition" >>>

	Television is an ianimate object.  It cannot sin.  Watching TV is
	not sin. Allowing the images thereon to arouse covetousness and
	lust is sin.  Allowing the time spent in front of the TV to detract
	from the work of God, is sin.  Making the TV the centerpiece, the
	altar of your home is sin.  

        If you are unaffected in this way by the TV, if you can give your
        whole life and heart to God and still watch a few hours of TV every
        night, then good for you.

        With the TV gone, there is less opportunity for me to sin with it. 
        I have replaced the evening news with an evening Bible study and
        songfest. I have done this out of a sincere and heartfelt desire to
        get to know my God better than to know the things of the World. 
        The Holy Ghost's first name is *HOLY* and God said to be Holy for
        He is Holy.

	TonyC

RE: <<< Note 800.202 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>

>>    Whatsoever that is not of faith is sin.  Do you know what faith is?

	Yes.  Faith without works is dead.
    

| <<< Note 800.196 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>


| Then, evil existed mostly behind the scenes, and was recognized as evil.  

	If it was recognized as evil like you say, then why did the beatings,
molestations, rapes, etc happen, but nobody knew? Come on, Paul.... you and I
both know on the outside everything appeared to be rosey, but for many, the
secret existed everyday of their lives. If they had recognized it as evil, it
would have stopped. But it was a secret....continuing on day after day. Sorry,
it would appear that you're caught up in the picture thing as well. Today
people are called for their actions when or shortly after they happen in most
cases and aren't kept as big secrets with everyone thinking so and so is such a
good person, when they really aren't.

| It was denounced by the popular culture, and shamefully hidden by those who 
| participated in it.  

	We're talking about 2 different things here. You're talking about being
shamed into silence, I am talking about no one, except those directly involved,
realizing that anything is even going on. 



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.205 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>

	Amen, Tony. Even a small victory over the flesh is a victory, but
	it is a Victory in Jesus!  We are to live Victorious lives, whether
	we mortify the flesh by forsaking ungodly pleasures or whether we
	face the martyr's stake.  
	

| <<< Note 800.202 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>



	The entrie note is based on your perceptions of what is/should be right
or wrong.



Glen

| <<< Note 800.206 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| It's called shame Glen.  

	The funny part of the above is that is not what I am talking about.
But..... not all things that were shamed should have been. 



Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.209 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

	It is you, Glen, who are "caught up in the picture thing."  If you
	want to believe the revisionist dogma that passes for history these
	days, that's your prerogative, but don't expect the rest of us to
	buy it.

	TonyC

    
    I will attempt to not be poetic, which is a gift and I thank the Lord
    Jesus for it and will speak as clearly as I can.
    
    If one is getting rid of the television in attempt to cleanse their
    life then they are deceiving themselves. First the cleansing in the
    heart and then the manifestation on the outward plane.
    
    Concerning "By beholding we become changed".  We are changed within our
    hearts and it is there that either we revel in our sin or see the Love
    of Christ.  The truth is the sin is already there and what we fear is
    that the Television might provoke those things that we would rather
    remain in secret.  So to mask over our own sin we blame others, even to
    the point of blaming the world entering our home through TV.
    
    The issue here and in every topic in this conference, which is why I
    could enter any topic with these words, is the propensity to hide from
    our hearts and attempt to behave in a religious manner in public.  Am I
    saying that the people here are not seeking the truth, no.  Am I saying
    the people here are not saved, no.
    
    I am in hopes that there is humilty in the hearts of these people and
    that they can see that they have indeed not attained and that there is
    more of God for them. But not if there is pride and arrogancy.  God
    will resist the proud but he will give grace to the humble.  
    
    I do not come here to teach any for what I have to give cannot be
    taught it comes by revelation only and that from God.
    
    Do not be afraid to face what is truly in your heart.  The heart is
    where the Holy Spirit dwells.  The heart must be faced with all honesty
    no matter what is to be found there, good or bad, holy and evil.  To
    deny ones own heart is to only know God in ones head.
    
    I neither condemn nor condone the actions of any man for he belongs to
    the Lord to do with as He chooses.  So if they chose to get rid of
    their cable my hope is that they do so because of who they have found
    themselves to truly be in their hearts and not from an act of their
    heads that said "I must do this or that, or I should or shouldn't do
    this or that, etc."  For I tell you that if one casts out something
    from their life because they thinks its wrong, the enemy will use it to
    abuse them and tempt them and cajole them, and they will fall into sin
    with it over and over.  But if because of the revelation within their
    hearts and the love they have found for themselves by the Love of
    Christ and they depart from something because it can not touch them or
    make contact with something in their heart any longer then that is true
    freedom.  They are free indeed.  The only way to be free is for the Son
    to set you free and that is in your hearts.  You will know you are
    truly free and will not have to sound trumpets because of the deeds
    that you have done concerning it. 
    
      

>| It's called shame Glen.  

>	The funny part of the above is that is not what I am talking about.
>But..... not all things that were shamed should have been. 



 But, that's why I say you don't understand...we *are* talking about shame,
 a long gone concept today.




 Jim

    
    >>    Whatsoever that is not of faith is sin.  Do you know what faith
    is?
    
            >Yes.  Faith without works is dead.
    
    
    	Works will profit you nothing if you do them without knowing your
    heart.  The Love of God resides in the heart, if you do not know your
    heart you can not know the depths of God's love and your works are all
    in vain.  You see your works, no matter how great, they will pass away,
    but Love never fails.

 Bob, I detect, and it could be me, a tone of judgement being aimed at those
 who participate in this conference that have not reached the "plane" that you
 have, and I'll confess that I don't feel very comfortable about it.




 Jim

    >>The entrie note is based on your perceptions of what is/should
    >>be right or wrong.
    >>Glen
    
    	Glen I do not understand what you mean by the note above.
    If you like you may explain it to me in some other way.
    

 re .219



 why is that?

I understand what you're talking about better now, Bob.  And again, I'm
mostly with you.  True obedience must come from love; the love of God must
come first, and obedience - transformed actions - flows out of that love. 
Efforts to reach God by performing certain actions to please Him are futile.
So I'm totally with you in the necessity to be transformed by Love, and live
in obedience as a result of that love, not the other way around.

I'm with you in accepting suffering, praising God in the midst of the worst.
I'm with you in living in the Lord's peace in the midst of trails.

Where I'm still missing with you is exactly what you mean by 'not resisting.'
In the passage I mentioned in James, James is speaking in the context of the
incompatibility of loving the world and loving God.  The twin ideas of
resisting the world and turning to God are totally intertwined:

(From James 4:7-8)

Submit yourselves, then, to God			<-- Turn to God
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you	<-- Turn away from evil
Come near to God and he will come near to you	<-- Turn to God
Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your	<-- Turn away from evil
 hearts, you double-minded.

I agree that resistance to the world and to evil must be in the context of
turning to God; that trying to resist evil *without* simultaneously (first,
actually) turning to God is doomed to failure.  I don't yet understand what
'not resisting' means to you.

The call to do both - shun evil, embrace truth - is pervasive in scripture.
As another example, Eph 4:22-24, focuses on both, and adds the cleansing of
Christ:

  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your
  old self, which is beign corrupted by its deceitful desires;

  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

  and to put on the new self, create to be like God in true righteousness
  and holiness.

It's like coming in all dirty and smelly from working hard outside.  We need
a three-step process:  take off the dirty clothes, take a shower, and put on
clean clothes.  Skipping any one of those steps is going to prevent us from
being clean in the end.

Paul

"Hate what is evil, cling to what is good." Rom 12:9

RE: <<< Note 800.214 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>

	If a brother tells you he has disconnected his cable as an outward
	working of the Spirit of Christ living in him, what's your problem
	with this?

	The sense I get from your entries is that you impugn those that
	would obey God's directives to mortify our flesh, purify our lives,
	separate from evil, and touch not the unclean thing.  You seem to
	be attributing less than sincere motives to the desire for a holier
	walk.  Most of what you have said concerning trying to cleanse
	ourselves is redundant. I don't think anyone in this conference
	believes in self-justification.  Your problem seems to be with
	those who would pursue sanctification.

	So are you completely sanctified?  Is your whole life dedicated to
	Christ?  Is your every motive centered in the Will of God?  Do you
	have a walk of holiness?  Is it your desire to identify those
	things in your life that detract from your walk and count them but
	dung?

	Curiously yours,
		TonyC

     >>Bob, I detect, and it could be me, a tone of judgement being aimed at
    >>those
    >> who participate in this conference that have not reached the "plane"
    >>that you
    >> have, and I'll confess that I don't feel very comfortable about it.
    
    
    	I do not judge anyone in this conference because I accept where
    each person is in their walk with the Lord.  How can I condemn or judge
    if I love the Lord and accept His will?  I cannot.  If I come across as
    sounding this way I apologize and ask that you understand that I do not
    like this kind of medium because I have found it to be extremely
    difficult to express the heart of God through it without playing a
    part. If you understand what I mean.  In other words I am going to be
    who God made me and who I am right now and not try to fill the status
    quo in order to enter here.
    
    

re:.219 by SCAS01::SODERSTROM

What are you having difficulty with?  Are you referring to what you said in
.203 that not everything on TV is bad?  We agree, you know.  See my response
.38 to this note.

Or were you referring to something else?

Paul

    >>If a brother tells you he has disconnected his cable as an outward
    >>working of the Spirit of Christ living in him, what's your
    >>problem
    >>with this?
    
    	I do not have a problem except to say that your words show that you
    are not at peace and that there is anger there.  
    
    >>The sense I get from your entries is that you impugn those that
    >>would obey God's directives to mortify our flesh, purify our
    >>lives, separate from evil, and touch not the unclean thing.  You seem
    >>to be attributing less than sincere motives to the desire for a
    >>holier walk.  Most of what you have said concerning trying to cleanse
    >>ourselves is redundant. I don't think anyone in this conference
    >>believes in self-justification.  Your problem seems to be with
    >>those who would pursue sanctification.
    
    	I have only 6 minutes and they are shutting down all of our
    systems. 
    
    	I have been where you are now at and I am telling you it does not
    work.  You cannot sanctify yourself.  No matter what you do.  It is God
    that sanctifies you.  Surrender to God and let him do it.  You will
    find the peace of God.
    
    >> So are you completely sanctified?  Is your whole life dedicated to
    >>Christ?  Is your every motive centered in the Will of God?  Do you
    >>have a walk of holiness?  Is it your desire to identify those
    >>things in your life that detract from your walk and count them but
    ><dung?
    
    I will not answer these questions because they come from your head.  I
    will know when you are speaking from your heart and then I will answer.

re: Glen

>Today people are called for their actions when or shortly after they happen 
>in most cases and aren't kept as big secrets

Who says?  The hidden evil never went away, it's still there.  Kids are still
abused by their parents, there is still secret evil going on.

I'm not going to try for a minute to claim that everything was rosey 50 years
ago.  It wasn't.  Hidden evil existed then, hidden evil exists now.

Don't paint your own rosey picture about how there's no hidden evil any more.

Paul

    re: .221
    
      Then you haven't read my replies!
    
      Say, these guys disagree vehemently on some things, but they
      still love me.
    
      Hang in there!  As Bob P. said, be who you are and if there
      is some antagonism, well Jesus can gird you up and you can
      continue on, by His grace, being a blessing to us!
    
    						Tony

    I can follow Bob, I think? 
    
    He's describing what it is like to totally have/be Jesus inside
    of you.  When you are love, then you no longer have to 
    resist the enemy or sin, it just can't touch you.  You 
    apply love to it and it flees in terror.
    
    He says to approach growth from that angle instead of the
    study angle.  Just act/believe that you *are* love and
    listen to the still small voice and *be* love.
    
    I wish it was this easy!  But its closer to the way I 
    grow than I would have believed possible even just a 
    few years ago.  Just let the the image of God shine through
    you and BE it.
    
    
    Jill2
    

RE: <<< Note 800.226 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>

>>    	I do not have a problem except to say that your words show that you
>>    are not at peace and that there is anger there.

	So, are you at peace?  Believe me, I am at peace with the
	conviction that God placed in my heart concerning the time I wasted
	with the TV.  Can you believe that God laid it on my heart to share
	that conviction with others?  The anger is a reaction to your
	haughty and arrogant presentation.
    
>>    	I have been where you are now at and I am telling you it does not
>>    work.  

	Since you've been where I'm at, perhaps you can share that with me.
	Contrary to what you may believe about me, I am open to correction. 
    
>>	You cannot sanctify yourself.  No matter what you do.  It is God
>>    that sanctifies you.  Surrender to God and let him do it.  You will
>>    find the peace of God.

        What makes you think that I believe I can sanctify myself?  Can you
        believe that God has placed convictions in my heart that he hasn't
        placed in others?  Do you believe that He calls, even burdens us to
        share our convictions?  
    
>>    I will not answer these questions because they come from your head.  I
>>    will know when you are speaking from your heart and then I will answer.

        As much as you think my replies are not from my heart, can you see
        why I think your replies are haughty and arrogant?

          "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:
          who can know it?" 

          "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every
          man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his
          doings"

	  Jer 17:9-10

	God knows the heart.  Has God specifically provided a revelation to
	you concerning my heart?  If He has, I sincerely would like to know
	about it, so please contact me off-line.  I am not being sarcastic,
	I mean this with all my being.

	Regards,
		Tony

>For I tell you that if one casts out something
>    from their life because they thinks its wrong, the enemy will use it to
>    abuse them and tempt them and cajole them, and they will fall into sin
>    with it over and over.

This is the sort of place that I lose you, Bob.  Let's bring this from the
abstract to the concrete.  Suppose a man who is heavily into pornography and
frequenting prostitutes becomes a Christian, and really truly desires to
follow Christ.  The nature of Christ is growing in his heart, but he has a
long way to go in 'putting off the old nature.'  He knows now that the things
he was involved in are wrong, and is desiring to put that behind him, but it
still has a strong pull on his fleshly nature.

Now I'm absolutely with you that the ultimate solution to being free of this-
free indeed as the Son sets us free - is for him to turn to the Lord more and
more and cultivate the Love of the Lord in his heart.  You're absolutely
right that until that happens, 'the enemy will use it to abuse him and tempt
him and cajole him,' and you're very likely correct that 'he will fall into
sin with it over and over.'

So what do you propose in the meantime?  That the man make no effort to avoid
those sins, but only focus on loving Christ?  That he recognize that he will
not achieve final victory until the Lord sets him free, so he should just
give up the battle and go ahead and do those things, and not even worry about
feeling guilty about them?  That when the Lord is ready and he loves the Lord
enough, this will just fall away?

This is what it sounds like you're saying, and it's a very anti-biblical
position.  The entire new testament is filled with exhortations to pay
attention to our actions.

Please clarify if this is an incorrect assessment of what you are saying.  In
the continued interest of moving from abstract to concrete, could you tell me
what you would suggest to a person in this specific position?

Paul

      Hi Bob P.,
    
        I was lovingly chastized by someone whom I have come to
        know a little and really care for.
    
        I just want to say "Forgive me for any indiscernment on
        my part."
    
        Where I am at right now is this...
    
        I think I'm close to where Paul is at.  I am uncertain as
        to exactly what you mean except for the simple yet profound
        concept that the cup must be cleansed from the inside out.
    
        The problem is, this is a world where people are hanging out
        at different spiritual levels.  I suspect that the only real
        *full* pertinence of your reply is for one who has been 
        perfected.  Such a one is the only person invulnerable to the
        influence of any evil which is beheld.
    
        Man, I know that every right implulse must be motivated from
        within.  But, I also know that we are spiritual children and
        that (on that basis) we may make decisions that might seem
        'legalistic' to that person invulnerable to any evil he beholds.
    
        In our immaturity, I can see it that a decision to, for example,
        remove the TV, is actuated by split motivations.  Subtle legalism
        in that an outward act is done instead of some heart-cleansing
        from the inside, but also the motivation of love.  Simply wanting
        to remove an influence because of the reality that,  as children,
        we are susceptible whereas some spiritual giant might not be.
    
        The best example I can think of is Rahab the harlot.  She saved
        the spies by *lying*.  She sinned.  Hebrews records her act as
        one of faith, however, if her faith was perfect, she would not
        have lied.  She'd have found another way.  But, God honored those
        first steps.   "Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief."
    
        Would it have been words in season for God to say, "You lied!"
    
        I'm gonna strive to take your words and glean the inspiration
        of God from them.
    
        I guess what I'm trying to do is bridge some kind of a gap here.
        (Not that all gaps are worthy of being bridged, but I think 
        this one is!).
    
        Oh...one other point.  We don't know our hearts.  We just don't.
        That I'm sure of.  The basis of any right choice is proportional
        to the degree to which we know the heart of God and has nothing
        to do with our knowing of ourselves.  I believe anyway.
    
        Take care Bob...
    
    							Tony
                                                               

| <<< Note 800.213 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>

| It is you, Glen, who are "caught up in the picture thing." If you want to 
| believe the revisionist dogma that passes for history these days, that's your 
| prerogative, but don't expect the rest of us to buy it.

	Oh.... that's right, Tony..... the priests that were passed from church
to church in the past, instead of dealing with the problem that the church knew
about is revisionist dogma...even though it has been proven. Or that people
have come forward and proven that they had been abused all those years ago, but
were kept quiet as they were afraid of what others might say (which is where
shaming someone fails miserably), etc. All these proven things are just
revisionist's dogma..... you're only fooling yourself if you believe it is
dogma.


Glen

| <<< Note 800.218 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>


| Glen I do not understand what you mean by the note above. If you like you may 
| explain it to me in some other way.

	It comes down to this. You have your beliefs on what is right, and what
is wrong. Others have theirs. Your note addresses each person's beliefs, which
is fine. But it also fails at that point due to people's beliefs are different.
So while one thing may be good for one, it's bad for another. An example of
this would be some believe that having a beer, or a glass of wine with your
meal is ok, as long as you don't get drunk. Others believe any beer/wine is bad
because it paints a picture that may not be Christian, while others believe it
is just a sin to do so. Can you see what I am saying?



Glen

| <<< Note 800.227 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>

| Who says?  The hidden evil never went away, it's still there.  Kids are still
| abused by their parents, there is still secret evil going on.

	Paul, the difference now is the message of exposing those things is out
there. Before people would worry what the neighbors would say. These things
just weren't allowed to be talked about.

| I'm not going to try for a minute to claim that everything was rosey 50 years
| ago.  It wasn't.  Hidden evil existed then, hidden evil exists now.

	10 fold or more would accurately describe 50 years ago. 

| Don't paint your own rosey picture about how there's no hidden evil any more.

	That is not a picture I was trying to paint. Sorry if that was the
impression you got. Today people can talk about it, back then, no one dared.


Glen

RE: <<< Note 800.233 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

        Can't deny there were some abuses, but if you want to believe the
        feeding frenzy mounted against various churches that's orders of
        magnitude out of proportion to the real scope of the problem, have
        at it.  How much of this fervor was wrought by junk psychiatry
        using "facilitators", hypnotism, and Oija techniques?  How much was
        wrought by plain old greed? I don't see them going after the poorer
        churches.

I agree that there is more of a consciousness now of exposing certain kinds
of situations than there was 50 years ago.  But:

>	10 fold or more would accurately describe 50 years ago. 

Is a figure you pulled out of thin air that I totally disagree with.

And you don't seem to want to address the huge quantity of activities that
were part of the 'hidden evil' 50 years ago which are simply flaunted as OK
today.

Paul

    .232 - Barbieri!
    
    Whoah Horsie!! Something that Tony and I agree with absolutely 100%!
    Good Stuff!
    
    

                  <<< Note 800.209 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>	If it was recognized as evil like you say, then why did the beatings,
>molestations, rapes, etc happen, but nobody knew?  ...
>both know on the outside everything appeared to be rosey, but for many, the
>secret existed everyday of their lives. 
>But it was a secret....continuing on day after day. 
    
    	What evidence do you have that it was so commonplace as you
    	indicate here?
    
.235>	10 fold or more would accurately describe 50 years ago. 

    	Prove this.  Accurately.

RE: <<< Note 800.216 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>
    
>>    	Works will profit you nothing if you do them without knowing your
>>  heart.  The Love of God resides in the heart, if you do not know your
>>  heart you can not know the depths of God's love and your works are all
>>  in vain.  You see your works, no matter how great, they will pass away,
>>  but Love never fails.

	Faith without works is still dead.  That's Scripture (James
	2:20,26).  

	How can you know your own heart when God Himself says in His word
	that you can't?  You can only know that which He chooses to reveal
	to you.  If He were to reveal your heart, in totem, you probably
	would not be able to bear it.  He reveals a little at a time to
	help us to grow in our walk towards His holiness.

	We agree that the things we do on our own will perish and only the
	works that God instruments in our lives will prevail. But do you
	disagree with Hebrews 11 (the "faith" chapter) and James 2:14-ff?
	Do you believe that God does not call us to purge the ungodliness
	and worldliness from our lives once Jesus comes into our hearts?

	Our bodies are temples of God.  God's house is to be a house of
	prayer.  If we truly let Jesus into our hearts and lives, will He
	not cleanse the temple, tossing out the clutter and junk, kicking
	over the tables and flogging the merchandisers?

	  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I
	  then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a
	  harlot?  God forbid.
	  1st Corinthians 6:15

	  What shall we say then?  Shall we continue in sin that grace may
	  abound?  God forbid.  How shall we, that are dead to sin, live
	  any longer therein?
	  Romans 6:1-2

	  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but,
	  under grace?  God forbid.  Know ye not that to whom ye yield
	  yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
	  whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
	  Romans 6:15-16

        Your entries are written as though you speak with the authority of
        Messiah, yet there are places in your entries that contradict
        Scripture.  For example, you said resisting the Devil gives him
        strength.  Scripture says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God.
        Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7). Does
        submitting to God constitute a work of faith?  According to Hebrews
	11 and James 2, it does.  But you indicate that such works are
	futile and fruitless.  The tone of your entries imputes insincerity
	to those who would step aside and let Christ clean their temples.

	With love in the One who makes us whole and cleanses us from all
	unrighteosness, inwardly *AND* outwardly,

	TonyC
	
	  

	Here is Messiah speaking for Himself.

	  And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
	  Luke 6:46

	  Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
	  kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which
	  is in heaven.
	  Matthew 7:21

        Is Jesus here telling us we have to do something?  Work???? 
        Horrors!  The "W" word!!  But what works are we supposed to do?
	After all, consider the admonishment immediately following the
	exhortation to *DO* the will of His Father.

	  Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
	  prophesied in thy name?  and in thy name cast out devils? and in
	  thy name done many wonderful works?
	  And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from
	  me, ye that work iniquity.
	  Matthew 7:22-23
	
        According to Strong's Concordance, the word "iniquity" in the above
        passage is the Greek "anomia", meaning "illegality, i.e. violation
	of law or (gen.) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the
	law, unrighteousness."

	So what are the works that we are to do?  We are called to repent
	from dead works.  What are dead works?  Is obedience a dead work?
	Not if it is done in Faith!  Faith in the resurrected Messiah.  As
	faith without works is dead, so are works without faith dead also.

        If you have faith in the resurrected Messiah and ignore the
        conviction of Holy Ghost when He comes upon you, showing you an
        area of your life that needs change, then your faith is dead.  If
        you work hard all your life to be a decent person, treat all men
        justly, even pray to God and go to church, but do all these things
        without faith in the risen Christ, your works are dead.

	Do you Love God?

	  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and
	  His commandments are not grievous.
	  1st John 5:3

	Do you love Christ His son?

	  If ye love me, keep my commandments.
	  John 14:15

	"What?!"  The horrified Christian asks, "You mean we have to *DO*
	something?"  Yes, Scripture says, because faith without works is
	dead.

	  Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all
	  that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
	  Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all
	  ages, world without end.  Amen.
	  Ephesians 3:20-21
	  

    Amen Tony!

 Tony, between your messages here and messages from my pastor, both speaking
 from the Word of God, I've fallen under some pretty heavy conviction of
 late.  I believe God has been speaking to me, through both you and Pastor
 Fuller, telling me that I need to deepen my surrender to Him..


 Praise God for His word and messengers.



 Jim

| <<< Note 800.238 by STAR::CAMUSO "alphabits" >>>


| Can't deny there were some abuses, but if you want to believe the feeding 
| frenzy mounted against various churches that's orders of magnitude out of 
| proportion to the real scope of the problem, have at it.  

	Tony, for one thing, it is people who are making and proving most of
the claims that were against the church. So either you are wrong, or all those
people lied and got away with it. Which is it? Secondly, it goes further than
the church. It goes into the very homes that on the outside appeared to be good
sound families, that in reality, were not. All kept quiet by fear of shame.
Something that should never have happened. I think that has a lot to do why the
shame factor is not around today. While shame can be a good thing, it can also
do a lot of harm.

| How much of this fervor was wrought by junk psychiatry using "facilitators", 
| hypnotism, and Oija techniques?  

	Tony, if people are proving their cases, then it means it did happen.
How many of these priests that have been convicted ever said they did not do
it? Or didn't have others come out of the woodwork to prove the claims? 


Glen

| <<< Note 800.239 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>


| And you don't seem to want to address the huge quantity of activities that 
| were part of the 'hidden evil' 50 years ago which are simply flaunted as OK
| today.

	Such as.....

    RE: .245
    
    Me, too, though I haven't heard your pastor in person.  But, the
    self-same Holy Spirit speaks and commends truth.
    
    TonyC's conviction around the tube has been duly noted, and, in fact,
    was used by the Holy Spirit to empower some long overdue action on my
    part.
    
    That's a story for another time, but suffice to say TV has not
    necessarily been a constructive influence in my family.  The tube has
    not been thrown out, but viewing is much more thoughtful, selective and
    infrequent now!
    
    Discussion in this topic strongly reminded me that (even though) things
    may be lawful, not all things are beneficial.  We strive for purity by
    God's grace.
    
    I'm also reminded to judge not (in one area) lest I be judged (in the
    same or another area).
    
    /Wayne

        From an editorial in the 15-Oct-95 NH Sunday News entitled, "Who Is
        Raising Our Kids?"

	  ------------------------------------------------------------
	  No wonder a bumper sticker advises: "Shoot your television."
	  We would add just one word: twice.
	  ------------------------------------------------------------

	May YHWH God through Holy Ghost strengthen, enlighten, encourage
	and grow us all in His Son Y'shua Messiah.
	

    
    There have been many questions asked of me here, some from
    preconceived understandings, some from former teachings, some
    from the hearts and some you have chosen to ask and then answer
    for yourselves.
    
    All that I have written is the word that the Lord has given to me
    for this time and to this people.  Some who will read the words I 
    have written will hear them in their hearts others will not.  This is
    by the Will of God that some will hear and some will not. I am to
    give as He directs.
    
    I will address the questions or the statements that are in this
    conference that are directed toward what I have formerly written but
    not all of the questions will be answered. 
    
    >>>>    Whatsoever that is not of faith is sin.  Do you know what faith
    >>>>    is?
    
    >>>	    Yes.  Faith without works is dead.
    
    
    	This is the only work that the Lord God has called you to do.
    	Believe on the Son of God, even Jesus Christ. All activity apart
    	from the heart oneness, in faith with the Son of God is
    	meaningless.
    
    Many of the scriptures that have been quoted in the previous notes have
    shown this clearly.
    
    One may believe with their mind but the devils believe and are afraid.  
    To believe with your heart is the work the Father has set before you. 
    How can you believe with your heart when you deny your hearts.  You
    quote scriptures that say the heart is deceiving and who can know it. 
    You do not yet understand that God knows your heart and He will reveal
    it to you.  
    
    You say we know this. But your hearts are troubled and you are
    struggling, you are wrestling.  Who is that troubles you and who are
    you fighting with? It is with your own heart you struggle, when the
    Lord has given you His peace.
    
    I wrestled and resisted and fought and struggled because I desperately
    wanted to know the truth.  And not only to know it but to become one
    with the Truth.  To be enveloped in it and combined so that my flesh
    would be washed away by the Word of God. For twenty years I would not
    settle on any counterfeit.  I wanted the real thing or nothing at all.
    
     And then the Lord brought forth the revelation of the Truth to my
    heart. All that I thought I knew and understood, every revelation
    prior to this, every event, every word that had been spoken by me or
    others, in fact the universe and all that it contains vanished. Sin
    vanished. 
    
    In its place was the Christ, covering all in all, without boundary. The
    Truth of Jesus Christ revealled to my heart in such simplicity and
    clarity.  It was there but all along I denied my very heart because
    that is what I was taught.  Taught by humans to deny my own heart, the
    only place that I can see the Christ, the Son of God.  And there in all
    Love He is, and all things pale in comparision to the Light. 
    
    You may say that I am arrogant and haughty and proud but the Lord has
    assured me that I am dead and He is bold and meek and humble in me.
    
    Look at your heart and judge your own reactions to my words.  If you
    are in resistance to my words and are at peace then my words will mean
    nothing to you for you will be secure in your hearts because the truth
    that is in you and you will in your security be filled with the Rest of
    God, assured of His Love.  But if your heart is provoked to anger
    because of the words that I speak then you have no peace and have an
    agenda of the mind to protect.  If you seek to save your life then you
    will lose it.  Therefore lay down your life and submit yourself
    therefore to God and He will deliver you.
    
       
    
    

 So, Bob, if the word "the Lord has given you" contradicts the written
 Word of God, which are we to take as Truth?





 Jim

    Jim and others...
    
    The heart can be discussed as another total subject in this conference. 
    I, for one, believe that what Bob is speaking of is his "core" being, 
    NOT the blood pumping organ.  The heart of man is deceitful and wicked,
    it is also pure and essential for faith in God.  It's another paradox
    of our creation.
    
    I believe also that what Bob has written is merely the Bible's
    representation of modern psychology.  "Know yourself"... the
    psychologists spout today, and then with human wisdom, "heal yourself"... 
    what Bob is saying is, KNOW YOUR CORE BEING, your strengths and
    weaknesses and then give those over to the Lord.  On this I agree.
    
    On the idea that we NOT rid ourselves of impure indoctrination i.e.,
    TV, Music, Literature, because God knows our heart, we do NOT agree.
    
    Nancy

Once again, Bob.  I'm with you on the vast majority of what you say, if not
how you say it.

But could you address the question I brought up in .231?

Paul

    >>So, Bob, if the word "the Lord has given you" contradicts the written
    >> Word of God, which are we to take as Truth?
    
    	If it appears that the word the Lord has given me contradicts the
    written Word of God it is either because I have not heard from the Lord 
    or you have not received the Truth of the Written Word.  The letter
    kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    
    As far as which you are to take as the truth, listen to the Holy Spirit
    in your heart He will guide you into all truth.

     
    >>On the idea that we NOT rid ourselves of impure indoctrination i.e.,
    >>    TV, Music, Literature, because God knows our heart, we do NOT
    >>agree.
    
    
    	I appreciate your synopsis of everything I have been saying and I
    wish to clarify the last part.
    
    	I do not believe that it is wise to have these things innudating
    our lives.  I do not watch much TV because I find it useless.  I have
    no magazine subscriptions including christian magazines because I find
    them uninteresting. But I am not interested in these things because I am free
    from them within, not because they are evil or I must flee temptation
    or any other reason then that I am not interested.  
    
    The world is mundane and all the pleasure it offers pales in comparison
    to the Truth of Christ in my heart.
    

exit
    
>>Where I'm still missing with you is exactly what you mean by 'not resisting.'
>>In the passage I mentioned in James, James is speaking in the context of the
>>incompatibility of loving the world and loving God.  The twin ideas of
>>resisting the world and turning to God are totally intertwined:

>>(From James 4:7-8)

>>Submit yourselves, then, to God			<-- Turn to God
>>Resist the devil, and he will flee from you	<-- Turn away from evil
>>Come near to God and he will come near to you	<-- Turn to God
>>Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your	<-- Turn away from evil
>>hearts, you double-minded.

>>I agree that resistance to the world and to evil must be in the context of
>>turning to God; that trying to resist evil *without* simultaneously (first,
>>actually) turning to God is doomed to failure.  I don't yet understand what
>>'not resisting' means to you.


	When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness He did that which He
saw His Father doing.  He did not stop Satan from carrying him around from place to
place.  He didn't stop him from speaking to Him nor did he rebuke him.  What Jesus
did was something pure.  He simply spoke the Truth.  Here was the truth.  Satan spoke a
scripture but it was a lie. It was a lie because Satan did more than change it around
a little, it was a lie because it came from a liar, from a heart in denial of the truth.

But when Jesus spoke the Word it was from His heart and in His heart was Truth.

To resist the devil is to know the Truth in your heart and then the Written Word of God 
comes forth with the Power of the Holy One, even the Spirit of God.

Jesus resisted the devil by being the Truth and we are to Walk in the Spirit which is 
the Spirit of Truth and that must be in the heart.

 
>>The call to do both - shun evil, embrace truth - is pervasive in scripture.
>>As another example, Eph 4:22-24, focuses on both, and adds the cleansing of
>>Christ:

>>  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your
>>  old self, which is beign corrupted by its deceitful desires;

>>  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

>>  and to put on the new self, create to be like God in true righteousness
>>  and holiness.

	Do you truly believe that I am telling you to perform evil acts?

	From the words some have written here it appears that I am
	being accused of promoting evil and sin.  

	I am saying to you to put off your old self and be transformed
	by the renewing of your mind and to put on the new man which is
	created in true righteousness and holiness.

	But I know that you can not do it of yourselves for transformation comes 
	from God by revelation and this revelation is in the heart.

	Here is the truth.
        You are already transformed in your hearts if you
	have been buried and risen with Christ.  So then if you have died and
	it is Christ that lives in you then why will you simply not believe.
	Believing comes by revelation and that revelation comes to the heart.

	Ask the Lord Jesus for the revelation to believe and you will receive
	it.  

| <<< Note 800.250 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>


	Very good note.

| Look at your heart and judge your own reactions to my words. If you are in 
| resistance to my words and are at peace then my words will mean nothing to you
| for you will be secure in your hearts because the truth that is in you and you
| will in your security be filled with the Rest of God, assured of His Love. But
| if your heart is provoked to anger because of the words that I speak then you 
| have no peace and have an agenda of the mind to protect.  

	When I first read this I thought it was the best part of the note. But
the more I read it, the more I changed my mind. The agenda part is where I am
having the problem. One can believe what you are saying is against their
beliefs, and depending upon at what level of peace they're at, will determine
what their reaction will be. In other words, you could have two people who
disagree with it. One could handle it calmly. One could handle it with anger.
Out of the two people, the calmer person is the better approach (imho). But it
does not mean that the person with anger has an agenda. It could mean that the
person has always expressed themselves in this manner with things that are held
dear to them. Could they improve any? Yup. Drop the anger. But does the anger
mean they have an agenda? I can't say that this is true with every case. I
think it is more of a matter of style, than of an agenda.




Glen

| <<< Note 800.254 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>


| As far as which you are to take as the truth, listen to the Holy Spirit in 
| your heart He will guide you into all truth.

	I believe the above to be 100% true. I have also been told that the
Holy Spirit is not in your heart, as that is really humanism. I have been told
I will find the Holy Spirit in the Bible, ONLY. Only meaning that is the only
place you can know the voice you are hearing is true. 



Glen

>	Do you truly believe that I am telling you to perform evil acts?

No, I don't.  And I fully, completely, absolutely 100% agree that final,
perfect freedom comes only with knowing Christ fully and having Him living in
our hearts fully.  When His nature becomes our nature, sin no longer holds
any interest.  Until then, all our efforts to avoid sin are only going to be
temporary and weak.  And of course the righteousness we achieve by our own
efforts doesn't really do anything for us in God's eyes.  And of course again
we are not going to be fully transformed in every area of life this side of
heaven.

But the fact of our lives as Christians is that this inner transformation of
the heart doesn't happen all at once.  You said in your own note that you
wrestled with the Lord for 20 years before you received this revelation of
Christ in your heart.

The question your position doesn't seem to address at all is: what do we do
in the meantime?  It doesn't help a new Christian who is struggling with old
temptations to just tell them: "Your efforts at resisting evil are futile,
don't try that any more, just focus on Christ.  If you had Christ in your
heart, this wouldn't be an issue.  If you don't understand me, it's because
you don't have Christ in your heart like I do."

Now some of what you say is very practical.  For example, recognizing Jesus'
response to temptation being to speak the truth into the face of evil, rather
than rebuke the evil.

Just practical ole' me again.  If the rubber don't hit the road, it don't
matter how fast the tires are spinnin'.

Paul

>>For I tell you that if one casts out something
>>    from their life because they thinks its wrong, the enemy will use it to
>>    abuse them and tempt them and cajole them, and they will fall into sin
>>    with it over and over.

>This is the sort of place that I lose you, Bob.  Let's bring this from the
>abstract to the concrete.  Suppose a man who is heavily into pornography and
>frequenting prostitutes becomes a Christian, and really truly desires to
>follow Christ.  The nature of Christ is growing in his heart, but he has a
>long way to go in 'putting off the old nature.'  He knows now that the things
>he was involved in are wrong, and is desiring to put that behind him, but it
>still has a strong pull on his fleshly nature.

>Now I'm absolutely with you that the ultimate solution to being free of this-
>free indeed as the Son sets us free - is for him to turn to the Lord more and
>more and cultivate the Love of the Lord in his heart.  You're absolutely
>right that until that happens, 'the enemy will use it to abuse him and tempt
>him and cajole him,' and you're very likely correct that 'he will fall into
>sin with it over and over.'

>So what do you propose in the meantime?  That the man make no effort to avoid
>those sins, but only focus on loving Christ?  That he recognize that he will
>not achieve final victory until the Lord sets him free, so he should just
>give up the battle and go ahead and do those things, and not even worry about
>feeling guilty about them?  That when the Lord is ready and he loves the Lord
>enough, this will just fall away?

	As humans we are subject to time.  You are speaking of a process
	from man's perspective and not God's. 

	This is what I propose in the meantime or should I say Mans-time.

	Forsake your need and desire for formulas and principles to follow
	and lay down your life.  When you are tempted Give thanks for your
	faith is being tried so that patience will be revealled to you in the 
	Lord's time.  If you fall into sin then confess what is in your heart
	with all meekness and weakness and believe that He has forgiven you
	your sin and cleansed you from all unrighteousness. 

	Accept the Will of God wether it appears good to you or evil for God
	Loves and desires for Love to be revealled both to and in your heart.

>>This is what it sounds like you're saying, and it's a very anti-biblical
>>position.  The entire new testament is filled with exhortations to pay
>>attention to our actions.

>>Please clarify if this is an incorrect assessment of what you are saying.  In
>>the continued interest of moving from abstract to concrete, could you tell me
>>what you would suggest to a person in this specific position?

	Only the Lord Jesus can clarify to you the Truth.  

	Listen to the exhortations of the Bible and believe with your
	heart so that you become one with the Word of God and you will no
	longer be concerned with assessments and understanding with your mind
	but will be filled with the Life of Christ.

	A prudent man forseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple
	pass on and are punished.
	Proverbs 22:3

	Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are
	deceitful.
	Proverbs 27:6
	

    :-) Camuso! Good verses.
    
    
    >Just practical ole' me again.  If the rubber don't hit the road, it
    >don't matter how fast the tires are spinnin'.
    
    Somethin' about this just tickled my funny bone! d;-)
    

>>But the fact of our lives as Christians is that this inner transformation of
>>the heart doesn't happen all at once.  You said in your own note that you
>>wrestled with the Lord for 20 years before you received this revelation of
>>Christ in your heart.

	A planted seed may one day bear fruit.  The planted word will one
	day yield revelation.

	Simply ask and believe and you shall receive.

>>The question your position doesn't seem to address at all is: what do we do
>>in the meantime?  It doesn't help a new Christian who is struggling with old
>>temptations to just tell them: "Your efforts at resisting evil are futile,
>>don't try that any more, just focus on Christ.  If you had Christ in your
>>heart, this wouldn't be an issue.  If you don't understand me, it's because
>>you don't have Christ in your heart like I do."

	  If you believe that is what I have said then so be it.

	But if even in the midst of all of this if you have begun to find
	what questions to ask then what has occured is acceptable.

>>Just practical ole' me again.  If the rubber don't hit the road, it don't
>>matter how fast the tires are spinnin'.

	Then perhaps you can ask the Lord to free you from this false belief
	and face the truth of Christ.  

	Continue on to ask the Lord for wisdom regarding all of the false beliefs 
that permeate the mind.  He will reveal them each and you may give them to him.
He will set you free to believe with your heart without the clutter of doubt that
besets you.  

	You will not see Christ in your mind, nor will you know him there.  No more
	can you know Christ in your mind than you can know your wife in your mind.  But
	the mind will cloud over everything pertaining to your wife.  The Lord would 
	have you love your wife with your heart despite what you see with your eyes and
	know with your mind.  But you must look at your own heart and ask to see
	Christ there. You will not know or love your wife through the mind nor will you
	know or love Christ.  But when you know him and love him in your heart then
	shall your mind follow and then shall your strength of good deeds follow.  

>    Somethin' about this just tickled my funny bone! d;-)

Nancy, is that smiley you wearing a hat?  :-)X

(Paul in a bowtie)

OK, Bob, I'm done.  I've tried several times to agree with as much of what
you say as I can, (and that's a lot), and point out a difficulty in what you
are claiming.  Not that I expect you to agree with me.  But all you can seem
to do is come back, to me and everyone else here, with patronizing remarks
like "Then perhaps you can ask the Lord to free you from this false belief
and face the truth of Christ."  

The Lord may have assured you that you are being meek and humble, but it
doesn't seem to be apparent to anyone else.

Paul

    
    As you wish.

    
    To Paul and all else,
    
    Before I depart I would add one last thing.
    
    >>OK, Bob, I'm done.  I've tried several times to agree with as much of
    >>what you say as I can, (and that's a lot), and point out a difficulty in
    >>what you are claiming.
    
    	I had no objective therefore I did not expect anyone to agree nor
    	disagree with what I wrote.  I understand your difficulty with
    	those things that I have written and offered to you a way by which
    	you would be free to address these difficulties.
    
    >>Not that I expect you to agree with me. 
    
    	You did not ask me to agree with you nor did I know that it was
    	your desire nor a function of entering words here.
    	Perhaps there is much in the way of expectations.
    
    >>But all you can seem to do is come back,to me and everyone else here,
    >>with patronizing remarks like "Then perhaps you can ask the Lord to
    >>free you from this false belief and face the truth of Christ."
    
    	You have asked for practical application to the abstract words
    that I speak and when the Lord opens that door and shows you directly
    how we believe lies that have been hammered into our minds over and 
    over until we believe that we are that very thing.  You immediately
    reject God's loving revelation.  
    
    I patronize no man.  I speak the truth.  Your belief that you require
    a practical understanding is a false belief that hinders you from
    receiving with your heart without first understanding it in your mind.
    
    When we desire revelation and the Lord brings it, it will be personal
    and relate directly to our own hearts.  If you ask God to reveal
    wisdom to you be prepared for the pain of the Two Edged Sword of God to
    penetrate you and reveal the truth.
    
    >>The Lord may have assured you that you are being meek and humble, but
    >>it doesn't seem to be apparent to anyone else.
    
    	If this is how it is so be it.  This electronic medium is in no
    wise an excellent place to communicate.  Therefore I have simply spoken
    the truth from my heart and have let you decide what you wish.
    
    I could be patronizing and say the appropriate things so that you will
    feel happy and comfortable but to do so would be to withold the truth.
    
    Love always speaks the truth.
     

    RE: .265 and .266
    
    Don't let it end like this!
    
    Bob, I took Paul's "rubber meeting road" comment to mean that inner
    heart reality is manifested in good works.  I sensed Paul nowhere
    suggesting that good works produced the righteousness of God.
    
    1 John says we love Him because He first loved us.  How could we who
    were dead and blind "see" God?  By His love demonstrated in Jesus
    Christ laying down His innocent life for us, even though we were
    sinners.
    
    Salvation is God's gift motivated by His love, not compensation for our
    "works of righteousness."  Would you not agree that Christ in us should
    be seen, if not appreciated, by those in darkness lacking spiritual
    discernment?
    
    I am confident that Paul's desire for practical outworking of faith does
    NOT derive from trying to gain God's favor, rather from his heart-felt
    response to God's love.  In other words, Paul is focused on revealing
    God's love through him to others.
    
    At least that's how my heart perceives Paul's.
    
    I'd very much like to see you resolve this disconnect in understanding,
    if not for yourselves, then for me. :-)
    
    I trust that my desire for your reconciliation derives from God's own
    will.
    
    /Wayne

	These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they
	received the word with all readyness of mind, and searched the
	scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
	Acts 17:11

	The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way; but the folly
	of fools is deceit.
	Proverbs 14:8
	

RE:  <<< Note 800.268 by ROCK::PARKER >>>

	Amen, Wayne.

Maybe Bob P. is indicating the following:

If Christ is in us and we allow Him to live His life through us, then sin 
is no longer an issue.  We are free.

The Truth sets us free.  If we are bound by something, then we ought to 
consider whether or not we have the Truth. Error will bind us.

So the point of view is from His position.  Not from a human one.
We are new creatures.  Since God invented time, He is not bound by it.  
Therefore, He can view us as white as snow, righteous, ambassadors, children, 
and heirs to the kingdom right now.  So why can't we?

Resisting evil, etc, then is just spinning our wheels...doesn't matter if they
are on the ground or not...8*)

Humans tend to want to control other humans.  So we tend to stay in the mire.
As Bob indicated, we have been hammered (maybe "programmed" is an accurate word)
with certain human "points of view", instead of His.  We have seen various 
degrees of Law and Grace intermixed to our detriment.

Kind of like the butterfly example.  We tend to think of ourselves as converted
worms (sinners), dwelling on that, instead of understanding that we are truly 
beautiful butterflies (new creatures); moving on in our self-image to reflect 
that which God already views us....knowing our identity in Christ...that we are
both loved AND accepted.  

This might be the revelation that Bob is speaking of.


Peace,

Jeff (TV...I thought it should be mentioned in this note somewhere.8-)

    In looking through Proverbs I found some interesting scriptures that
    speak of the heart.  As I stated previously, the heart is seemingly a 
    paradox in scripture.
    
    I was particularly drawn to Proverbs 3.  In it I discovered what it was
    that God wanted us to listen to in our hearts.  Bob is correct we are
    to listen to our hearts, but what should we find there?  The WORD of
    God, his COMMANDMENTS, the LAW.  We are to hide these things in our
    heart and rely on THEM. Anything less than this is relying on our own 
    understanding which is deceitful and wicked.
    
    The Bible also COMMANDS us to keep our heart in 3:23.  I asked myself
    why would God COMMAND us to keep something that we rely upon to have
    faith in Him.  Because if we memorize the Law, meditate upon the law,
    then it becomes a part of us, it is not only IN our hearts, but becomes
    PART of our transformation into His nature. 
    
    I believe it is our tendancy towards pride, which causes our hearts to
    be deceitful and wicked, leaning upon our own understanding.  *I* must
    be right! :-) :-)  But if we rely on the WORD, then His righteousness
    will transform us.
    
    Proverbs 3: v1
    
    My son, forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments.  
                       ^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    v5 and 6
    
    Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thy own
    ^^^^^        ^^^^                ^^^^^     ^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^ 
    understanding.                 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    v 20, 21
    
    My son attend to my words, incline thine ear unto my sayings.  Let them
                     ^^^^^^^^
    not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
                                     ^^^^                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
    v 22, 23
    
    For *they* [WORD] are life unto those that find them and health to all their
    flesh.  Keep thy heart with all diligence, for out of it are the
    issues of life.
    
    Thy Word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee.
        ^^^^            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Now the question still remains if one feels a conviction that the TV is
    sinful with little or no merit i.e., the analogy of wading through a
    garbage can for a piece of steak, does it do any good to turn it off
    if one's heart is not fully convinced.
    
    or
    
    If one's heart i.e., Tony Cumoso's is full convinced, would he NOT then
    be able to watch the TV and NOT be persuaded to sin?
    
    I think that these assumptions, questions are fruitless debate.  Each
    individual will have a different threshold of tolerance, i.e., pain.
    
    I believe that to most common people of the Lord, the true sin of the
    TV is DENSENSITIZATION towards holiness.  We have strayed from truly
    understanding what is holy and what is not.
    
    Proverbs 4: 26, 27
    
    Ponder the path of they feet, and let all thy ways be established. 
    Turn not to the right hand nor to the left; remove thy foot from
    evil.
    
    I'd say if God wants our feet removed from evil, our eyes must follow.
    
    :-)

   I left my TV off most of last evening.  Amazing how productive one can
 be with the thing turned off.



 Jim

RE: .272 & .273 by JULIET::MORALES_NA

	Excellent!  We need to know what it means to repent.  

	  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship
	  of the world is enmity with God?
	  James 4:4

	We ought to share our convictions ..

	  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good
	  works.
	  Hebrews 10:24

	.. without reviling one another.

	  Speak not evil one of another, brethren.  He that speaketh evil
	  of [his] brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law:
	  but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a
	  judge.
	  James 4:11

	

| <<< Note 800.272 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| I was particularly drawn to Proverbs 3. In it I discovered what it was that 
| God wanted us to listen to in our hearts. Bob is correct we are to listen to 
| our hearts, but what should we find there? The WORD of God, his COMMANDMENTS, 
| the LAW. We are to hide these things in our heart and rely on THEM. 

	Nancy, does it say in the Bible to hide these things in there? I'm
curious. 



Glen

Proverbs 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my 
commandments: 

  2  For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 
 
 3  Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write 
them upon the table of thine heart: 

  4  So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and 
man. 

  5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own 
understanding. 

  6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 

  7  Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 

  8  It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 

  9  Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all 
thine increase: 

 10  So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst 
out with new wine. 

 11  My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his 
correction: 

 12  For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom 
he delighteth. 

 13  Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth 
understanding. 

 14  For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and 
the gain thereof than fine gold. 

 15  She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire 
are not to be compared unto her. 

 16  Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and 
honour. 

 17  Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 

 18  She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every 
one that retaineth her. 

 19  The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he 
established the heavens. 

 20  By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the 
dew. 

 21  My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and 
discretion: 

 22  So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. 

 23  Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. 

 24  When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie 
down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. 

 25  Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, 
when it cometh. 

 26  For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being 
taken. 

 27  Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power 
of thine hand to do it. 

 28  Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will 
give; when thou hast it by thee. 

 29  Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by 
thee. 

 30  Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. 

 31  Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. 

 32  For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the 
righteous. 

 33  The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the 
habitation of the just. 

 34  Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. 

 35  The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. 

        The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony
	of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

        The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
        commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

        The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgements of
        the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

        More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold:
        sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

        Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them
        there is great reward.

        Who can understand his errors?  cleanse thou me from secret faults.

        Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not
        have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be
        innocent from the great transgression.

        Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be
        acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strenght, and my redeemer.

       Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and
       good.

    Tony,
    
    Psalm 19:7-14 is Matthew's favorite Bible verses.  

    P.S.
    
    Glen, the scripture is posted in my note.

	Ask and yee shall receive. Thanks. 

	The reason I asked is if you do what the Bible says, doesn't it become
His heart and not your own? Because with your own heart, you would be subject
to faults. But if you do as the Bible states, then there is no fault, and
that's why I am wondering if at that point it doesn't become His heart? 


Glen

    .283
    
    Good question Glen.  That was exactly the point of my writing.
    
    

| <<< Note 800.284 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| Good question Glen. That was exactly the point of my writing.

	Thanks.... at least I know where you are coming from with the heart
thing. 

RE: <<< Note 800.283 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

	Amen, Glen!

      Yes, Amen Glen!
    
      The cordialness of this Glen/Nancy string brought a river of
      tears to my eyes!
    
      (OK, so i exaggerate.)
    
      ;-)
    
    						Tony

<---Tony....cry me a river!!! 

    I find myself watching TV at times, but agree that there is
    no gain. Whether watching the news, or the best that man can
    write, I find it a sad commentary on the current state of man
    and society. My blief is that if I want a good relationship with 
    God, I'm not going to see how close to the edge of a cliff I can
    get without falling off. Therefore, if I am not 100% sure, I 
    should not be Watching. I believe the book of James covers this thought.
    
    p.j.

RE:  <<< Note 800.289 by FABSIX::P_MAZZA >>>

	Amen, p.j.

        Purge out the leaven.  We can be merry interacting with our
        families, in sweet fellowship with brothers and sisters and in
        service to our Lord.

	TonyC

    ha!!!  Cliff sure gets used a lot, I just used that same analogy with
    my youngest this past Saturday! :-)  And the lemonade one too.
    
    AMEN PJ!