Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Re: Toronto Curse
    
    pro or con?

>    Re: Toronto Curse

Mike, I know you think this is a terrible thing, and I have no problem with
your presenting that view.  But can you please not START by calling it a
curse?

Paul

    It is a curse.  Several cases of post-severe depression have been reported
    by those who have experienced it.

	The Holy Spirit's first name is Holy.

	One of the gifts of the Spirit is self-control.

	From my personal perspective, it is another reason for God's name
	to be blasphemed among the unbelievers.

	1st Corinthians 14:23
                If therefore the whole church be come together into one
                place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those
                that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that
                ye are mad?
	      
	1st Corinthians 14:40
		Let all things be done decently and in order.
	

>Several cases of post-severe depression have been reported
>    by those who have experienced it.

"Several" out of the 200,000+ who have attended?  This doesn't really say
much.  Out of those 200,000+, how many have had their lives transformed in
tremendously positive ways?  How many have a new hunger for the Word?  How
many have a new committment to follow Jesus more closely than ever before? 
LOTS.  A great multitude.

I have attended services at a church that is experiencing much of the same
sort of renewal as the Toronto Vineyard.  I have never met a group of people
who are more solidly biblically based, and who are more SOLD OUT to the Lord
Jesus Christ.  The number of people who are being visibly transformed, day by
day, through their interactions with the Holy Spirit are truly astounding.

As they say of Aslan in Narnia, our God is not a tame God.  And He never
meant us to be people of words and ideas only.  "My message and my preaching
were not in persuasive word of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and
of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the
power of God." 1Cor 2:4-5  We have forgotten what it means to be disciples of
a God of power, and when He now displays His power, as He has again and again
throughout history, we think it must not be Him, and we fall back on our
words and our wisdom.

I really don't want to go down a long discussion again of justifying this. 
But I do need to pipe up when you just pop in with a blanket "It's a curse."

Paul

    
    Again, I urge everyone to lay hold of the magazine.  Such balanced
    reporting and analysis will cause us all to think twice about a few
    things, I'm sure, and lead us deeper into the truth.
    
    jeff

>"Several" out of the 200,000+ who have attended?  This doesn't really say
>much.  Out of those 200,000+, how many have had their lives transformed in
>tremendously positive ways?  How many have a new hunger for the Word?  How
>many have a new committment to follow Jesus more closely than ever before? 
>LOTS.  A great multitude.
    
    The meetings I've seen, the Word is never even opened, much less talked
    about.  How can they gain a new hunger for it?  Basically you have
    emotionally-driven people looking for their next high and thinking
    they're growing closer to the Lord.  Such "growth" is temporal.  The
    ones who regret even getting involved, including many of the pastors
    who have since left Vineyard (i.e., Tom Stipe), will tell you solid
    & permanent growth only comes from in-depth study of the Word.

>I have attended services at a church that is experiencing much of the same
>sort of renewal as the Toronto Vineyard.  I have never met a group of people
>who are more solidly biblically based, and who are more SOLD OUT to the Lord
>Jesus Christ.  The number of people who are being visibly transformed, day by
>day, through their interactions with the Holy Spirit are truly astounding.
    
    But it doesn't last, is improperly focused, and has no Biblical basis.

>power of God." 1Cor 2:4-5  We have forgotten what it means to be disciples of
>a God of power, and when He now displays His power, as He has again and again
>throughout history, we think it must not be Him, and we fall back on our
>words and our wisdom.
    
    That doesn't apply here.  I've seen first hand what solid teaching of
    the Word does in a body of believers, as well as what emotionalism
    does.  The power of God's Word is incredible.  Emotionally-driven
    believers are prone to temptation and backsliding, mainly because of
    the activities not being scriptural.

>I really don't want to go down a long discussion again of justifying this. 
>But I do need to pipe up when you just pop in with a blanket "It's a curse."

    I understand that Paul, but I've been on both sides and stand by my
    claim.
    
    Mike

    btw - if you mark the true revivals in history, you'll notice that
    excessive unbiblical emotionalism killed them all.  You need to look no
    further than the Jesus People movement in the early '70s and what
    charismania followed it up with.
    
    Mike

    There is a difference between "emotionalism" which is as you say 
    temporary and true visits of the Holy Spirit.  You are talking about
    emotionalism and Paul is talking about the Holy Spirit.  Its hard 
    to distinguish between them when looking at another person or this
    Toronto event.  But as you say, one lasts and the other fades away.
    Of course even a true visit of the Holy Spirit will fade away if you
    don't choose to pursue God with all your heart and mind. 
    
    My Pastor said this, to truely grow you must study the Word and learn
    spiritual prayer.  Some excel in the Word, others in prayer.  It works
    best when we are equally balanced. 
    
    Jill2

    Mike
    
    I appreciate your concern but you ought to know that the UK is still
    moving in this blessing, many churches are more alive now than ever
    before, there is an awakening amongst Gods people here that has not
    been seen since the Welsh revival. Amongst those who believe this is a
    genuine move of God are a couple of respected theologians whose
    previous reputation has been very uncharismatic and skeptical of this
    type of thing. Many lives  have been changed for the good but, of
    course, there has to be a responsibility taken by all leaders to ensure
    this is handled in a Godly manner. FWIW my church has not really moved
    in this way, we are a Word-preaching church.
    
    We've covered all this before, and I respect your caution and concern -
    this is simply my observation.
    
    love
    ben 
    
    I guess we've covered all this before in another topic.  

>    The meetings I've seen, the Word is never even opened, much less talked
>    about.  How can they gain a new hunger for it?  
    
    You've obviously not "seen" enough, Mike.  There apparantly is a sermon
    every night.
    
    >Basically you have
    >emotionally-driven people looking for their next high and thinking
    >they're growing closer to the Lord.  Such "growth" is temporal.  The
    >ones who regret even getting involved, including many of the pastors
    >who have since left Vineyard (i.e., Tom Stipe), will tell you solid
    >& permanent growth only comes from in-depth study of the Word.

    I've grown to appreciate "emotionally-driven" people as much as
    intellectually driven people.  God made both types and not by accident.
    I think it is a gross overstatement to say that these people are
    looking for their next high only.  Like all Christians, I suspect, they
    are looking for a supernatural encounter with their Lord.  I disagree
    that only biblical studies (without any emotional aspect) lead to
    permanent spiritual growth.
     
    
>    But it doesn't last, is improperly focused, and has no Biblical basis.

    All works of God "lasts" to the degree that they are designed to "last".
    
    
    Mike, you, maybe more than anyone, should pick up the magazine.
    
    jeff

    Salvation
    ---------
    Is this practiced by the early church in Acts?  YES.
    Is it taught by the apostles in their epistles? YES.
    
    Water Baptism by Immersion
    --------------------------
    Is this practiced by the early church in Acts?  YES.
    Is it taught by the apostles in their epistles? YES.
    
    Speaking in Tongues
    -------------------
    Is this practiced by the early church in Acts?  YES.
    Is it taught by the apostles in their epistles? YES.
    
    Laughing in the Spirit
    ----------------------
    Is this practiced by the early church in Acts?  NO.
    Is it taught by the apostles in their epistles? NO.
    
    Making Animal Noises in the Spirit
    ----------------------------------
    Is this practiced by the early church in Acts?  NO.
    Is it taught by the apostles in their epistles? NO.
    
    case closed,
    Mike

>If it's not in Acts or the Epistles, it's not of God

Guess we need to get rid of Sunday School, then.  There's no mention of it in
the Bible.  Computers are not of God either, nor are cars nor any other
modern technology.  The concept of requiring people to go off to seminaries
to become a pastor, and then putting them directly into leadership of a body
who they don't know when they are 25 years old is definitely not of God.  The
concept of denominations is definitely not of God.  A huge portion of what we
do and accept as Christians today is not of God, by such a strict rendering.

If you had said, "If it's not *in accord* with how God moved in Acts or the
Epistles, it's not of God," then I'm right with you.  But just because
something isn't specifically spoken of in the Bible exactly as it occurs
today doesn't mean it's wrong.  

If it's spoken AGAINST by the Word, then it is certainly not of God.

Paul

And Mike, thank you for sharing some of your background.  It gives me a much
better base to understand you from.

Thanks,

Paul

>Guess we need to get rid of Sunday School, then.  There's no mention of it in
>the Bible.  Computers are not of God either, nor are cars nor any other
>modern technology.  The concept of requiring people to go off to seminaries
>to become a pastor, and then putting them directly into leadership of a body
>who they don't know when they are 25 years old is definitely not of God.  The
>concept of denominations is definitely not of God.  A huge portion of what we
>do and accept as Christians today is not of God, by such a strict rendering.
    
    Then maybe Christiandom needs to revisit God's perfect Word and
    evaluate where they stand.  Most of the above isn't relevant to
    eternity.  Following deception is.
    
    Mike

      Hi,
    
        This kind of makes me think of Elijah when He was looking for
        a manifestation of God.  I forgot what all the things were,
        but it was something like the following...
    
        There was a fire.
    
        God wasn't there.
    
        There was a LOUD noise.
    
        Nope, not there.
    
        There was an earthquake.
    
        No, not there either.
    
        There was a still small voice.
    
        YES, THERE HE IS!!!
    
    
        I know we have the Pentecost experience in Acts, but remember
        what those apostles were doing for FORTY DAYS?  They were huddled
        in that room praying with one accord.  Forty days of preparation.
        And that 40 is a pretty symbolic number too.
    
        40 days in the wilderness when God shows the bride all her sin.
    
        I have had a couple instances of deep emotionalism.  They have
        all happened when someone depicted the cross in a way in which
        I saw Christ hung for me really personally.  I don't know anything
        about this Toronto thing, but my tears were sometimes many and
        it was very personal, i.e. I really didn't feel a whole lot like
        needing others to witness it or anything like that.
    
        My thoughts on this Toronto thing are mainly just what motivates
        the behavior that results?  Do the people sort of get 'zapped'
        and get real emotional and have some ecstatic feeling?  Or is it
        a result of seeing Christ hung for them?  Did some speaker tell
        them, "Let me tell you what Christ did for you"?
    
        The word is the power...regardless of how it is proclaimed.
    
    						Tony

    Thanks for that great Elijah example, Tony!  It shows that the true
    Holy Spirit is a gentleman.  Remember, God says in 1 Corinthians
    14:32-33 who has control and self-control is a fruit of the spirit.
    
    This "blessing" is not God's Holy Spirit.
    
    Mike

      Your welcome Mike and thanks for your contributions!
    
      Say Paul...not that this is complete closure, but just want
      to suggest a differentiation between the category of things
      we might have today and did not have in biblical times that
      _are more external_ (such as TV's_ from those things that
      _are more internal_ such as actual behaviors.
    
      Can you appreciate the difference?  I just want to note that
      there is a difference and its really not subtle.
    
    						Tony

      Hi,
    
        The following is related, but actually is worthy of a separate
        topic (perhaps).
    
        What of the Holy Spirit's work of changing the heart?  Can we
        consider a bit more deeply what it is?
    
        I propose two possibilities...
    
    
        1) A person comes to faith via a revelation of agape (Gal. 5:6).
           Because the person responded in this way, He permitted the
           Holy Spirit to dwell in His heart and to change it.  This
           work of changing is preceded by the revelation of agape, but
           is not that revelation itself.  
    
        2) A person comes to faith via a revelation of agape (Gal. 5:6).
    	   Because the person responded to that revelation with faith,
           that WORD was permitted to transform the heart.
           The work of the Holy Spirit, in matters of heart-change, is
    	   100% revelatory.  It is the revelation itself which actually
       	   changes the heart.
    
        I have come to believe in 2) and in fact have come to believe that
        if the work is more than this, free will is denied.
    
        By beholding we become changed.
    
    							Tony
                                        

    Tony -
    
    re: 21
    
    Say it again I can't quite see the difference.
    
    Jill2

Yes, Tony, I recognize the difference.  I was just responding to the blanket
nature of "case closed" as it was presented.

And yes, I very much appreciate your example of Elijah, and it is oh-so-true
that the Holy Spirit is often very quiet and gentle: "Your ears will hear a
word behind you saying 'this is the way, walk in it' whenever you turn to the
right or to the left." Is 30:21

Then again, a hundred and twenty guys in the midst of a mighty wind, with
fire on their heads, babbling in many different languages, so that everyone
thought they were drunk, isn't exactly a quiet word.

Elijah's experience could also be an indication that the Spirit doesn't
always work the way we expect that He will.

Paul

      Hi Jill2,
    
        With Example #2, it is the revelation of God's love itself
        when received into the heart by faith, that actually changes
        the heart.
    
        With Example #1, the revelation of God's love in and of
        itself produces no change.  But, it causes the faith responder
        to permit the Holy Spirit to make the change which change comes
        after the revelation was given.
    
        I believe the Holy Spirit changes the heart, but it is via
        revelation alone, i.e. His work from first to last is one of
        showing us who the Father is.
    
        Does the Spirit change the heart by revealing God's character
        alone or is there something else?  
    
        If there is something else, what exactly is it?
    
    						Tony

      Hi Paul,
    
        Yup, I sure won't deny that Pentecost must have been an exciting
        experience frought with some exciting externals!
    
        BUT, what preceded it?
    
        A group of guys see the cross like they've never seen it before.
        They actually see Christ hung.  They then actually see Him risen.
        After the resurrection, Christ gives them Bible studies, reading
        from the prophets and the Psalms.  (What would it be like to be
        given a Bible study by Jesus Himself in person and after you have
        been personally acquainted with the cross and the resurrection - 
        at least the physical cross and resurrection)?
    
        Christ ascends and then in one accord, they are huddled together
        in a room praying and repenting.  Outside, the 'church' which
        had recently killed their Messiah probably doesn't think a whole
        lot of them.
    
        Is that the kind of experience that produced Toronto?
    
        And I happen to believe the above is a TYPE of a last day group.
    
        Just wait till a group experiences Zechariah 12:10 through ch. 13.
    
        Just wait!
    
        The preparation for the latter rain pentecost will be such that
        the group's heart-awareness AND heart-acquaintance with the cross
        will far surpass the disciples.  After all, the outpouring of the
        Spirit they receive ripens them and makes them ready for the
        harvest (translation).
    
        The experience of seeing the cross, learning from it, and the
        ensuing 40 days of prayer and repentance in one accord - thats 
        what I'm looking for.
    
    						Tony

    Revival is *ALWAYS* preceded by *TRUE* repentance.  It happened before
    Acts 2, it happened with the Reformation, Jonathan Edward's era, the
    Jesus People movement, but not with the Toronto Blessing.
    
    Mike

    re: 24
    
    Tony -
    
    Is that why there is always a sense of overwelming love along with the
    brief moment of insight, pain, and forgiveness?
    
    
    Jill2

I've never been to Toronto itself.  So I can't speak directly to the Toronto
experience.

But I have attended services at a church which is experiencing much of the
same sort of renewal, many of whose members have gone up to Toronto.  I will
say again that I have never known a group (as a group) of more sold-out,
truly repentant, fully-committed, biblically-based believers in my entire
Christian walk.

The tree is laden with fruit.  And the Holy Spirit is providing in abundance.
Attending there helps me, calls me, to the radical committment to Jesus
Christ that He intended in the first place, in a way beyond any other church
setting I've ever seen.

While at first glance it may seem that the people are wallowing in
emotionalism, the life-transformations going on are what really tell the
story.

It is only surmise on my part that the Holy Spirit is likewise moving in
Toronto, but it has at least some basis in my own experience with the
movement.

Paul

    Paul, have they start making animal noises yet or is it still laughing
    only?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    my Brother.
    
    I have *no* affiliation with the TB, and if you remember my comments in
    the previous string, I will remain that way. However, my heart fell
    when I read this last comment by you. I thought that the comments shown
    in -.1 were cynical and hurtful.
    
    You have stated your position on the TB quite clearly - and I
    appreciate that warning. However, I think the watchman's warning could
    be sounded in a less cynical manner.
    
    God Bless you Mike,
    
    Harry

    
    There are many reports of the TB producing repentance among those
    who have been blessed.
    
    jeff

    Harry, I wasn't being cynical, so I'm sorry you took it that way.  It
    was a serious question on the natural progression of this "blessing."

    Harry, 
    
    Now that Mike has spoken up...  :^)
    
    I get to listen to the Bible Answer Man's radio ministry on the way
    home most evenings, and have often heard Hank Hannegraff (SP?) speak of
    the Toronto Blessing -- always with much concern that they were straying
    far afield from "the teachings of the historic Christian faith".  
    
    Hank has played sound bites recorded at the Blessing's meetings, and on
    them I have heard people barking like dogs and making other "animal"
    noises, some of them hideous.  The clips he played on the air were
    loud, chaotic, and sounded to me more like the sounds of hell than of
    heaven.  
    
    For what it's worth, I took Mike's question at face value...
    
    /John
         

    Has anyone in this conference actually *been* to one of these
    services or have heard a *first hand* account from someone who has?
    

    
    I started this topic with a pointer to an excellent report and analysis
    in this month's Christianity Today.  If folks want to "hear" first hand
    accounts, pick up the blasted article!  It has several accounts.
    
    jeff

 For anyone who is on America On Line, the article should be available
 there. 




 Jim

    Ok,
    
    if it's available on AOL, is it then permissable to cross-post it
    here?

 I don't know.  I'll check AOL.  Christianity today has a forum on AOL, but
 I'm not sure if they allow distributing it from there.  I'll get in there
 in a little bit.




 Jim

  According the the disclaimer on AOL, articles in CT can not be posted
  elsewhere without their permission.  I've downloaded it to my AOL account
  and will Email CT and see what they say, if there's enough interest here
  in seeing it.



 Jim

    Thanks Jim
    
    was just asking. 'You no ask, you no get' ;')

    
    Jim,
    
    Please download the "next" article which is an analysis of Jonathan
    Edwards writings on revival.  Also, ensure that the inset boxes are
    included in the TB piece, if you can.
    
    jeff

    
>    Please download the "next" article which is an analysis of Jonathan
>    Edwards writings on revival.  Also, ensure that the inset boxes are
>    included in the TB piece, if you can.
    
 
  Will do. There were a number of articles that looked worth reading, but
  for some reason my connection was rather slow (as it frequently is with 
  AOL).




 Jim

    
    .42 Barry,
    
    Please take the rathole about "first hand accounts" to the appropriate
    topic!  ;)
    
    jeff

    I have experienced this firsthand and this is of God. Mike and I have
    not seen eye to eye on this before. We live 3 hours from Toronto and
    know John Arnott of Toronto Airport Vineyard personally as well as most
    of the other staff there.
    
    I have also served many times as part of the ministry team there.
    Waht I see is changed live renewed lives and christians come away with
    new zeal love and enthusiasism for God.
    
    We are seeing some conversions as well. There is a lot of good fruit in
    peoples lives that have been there.
    
    Please keep in mind most of the media and critics(Hank Hannegraaf)
    focus only on the extremes and not what is taking place in general.
    
    More later 
    Orval
    

Please feel free to distribute the following Toronto Airport Vineyard news
release to Christian print media anywhere.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEWS RELEASE

For Immediate Release

Toronto, Ontario, September 10, 1995 -- While 'fires' from Airport 
Vineyard's conference, "Catch The Fire '94", still burn world-wide, 
numbers registering early for "Catch The Fire Again", to be held October 
4-7 at the Regal Constellation Hotel in Toronto, are already double those 
of last year.

	Letters from pastors all over the world who testify to profound 
changes in their lives and their churches as a result of last year's 
conference, still continue to arrive at the Airport Vineyard.  Renewal 
meetings which sprang up as a result of "Catch The Fire '94" have 
virtually transformed entire communities.

	Mike Thompson, pastor of The Tabernacle, Melbourne, Florida, 
experienced a radical change in his own life as well as that of his 
church.  "You can call it a hurricane!" he remarks, describing his "Catch 
The Fire '94" experience.  "Personally it was like going from death to 
life spiritually," and adds, "It's re-written the DNA of our church."  
The Tabernacle has held renewal services six days a week until recently.  
Now services are two nights a week with two outreach ministries operating 
as a direct result of renewal.

	Sunderland Christian Centre in northeast England is continuing 
with meetings six days a week.  A year ago the city was statistically the 
car theft capital of Europe.  This year car theft is down by 44% and 
police officials phone the church asking for prayer for their cases.

	Ken Gott, pastor of the Sunderland Christian Centre will be a 
speaker at "Catch The Fire Again" along with Dr. Guy Chevreau, whose 
book, "Catch The Fire" is a British, as well as Canadian best seller.

	Speakers also include Airport Vineyard's pastor, John Arnott;  
Vineyard regional overseer, Ron Allen;  European renewal leader, Martin 
Buehlmann; and Wesley Campbell, a British Columbia pastor and itinerant 
renewal speaker whose ministry emphasises the prophetic.

	Campbell believes the increase in salvations, physical healings 
and miracles he has observed at renewal meetings internationally 
represents an increasing anointing of the Holy Spirit.  He says he will 
attend "Catch The Fire Again" fully expecting what he has seen 
internationally also to take place in Toronto.

	David Ruis and Jeremy Sinnott are leading worship.

	The Airport Vineyard is encouraging early registration.  
Conference seating is limited to 5,000.  3,000 attended last year.  
Registration information is available from the church office at (416) 
674-8463.

                                  - 30 -

For more information, contact:   Daina Doucet
                                 Toronto Airport Vineyard
                                 doucet@netaccess.on.ca
                                 (905) 528-5375

 

>    Please keep in mind most of the media and critics(Hank Hannegraaf)
>    focus only on the extremes and not what is taking place in general.
    
    Which part is Biblical?  The extremes or the generality?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    re: 45
    
    Finally someone who has actually been there!  Thanks so much for
    replying.  It sounds like you have real experience of whats
    going on there.  
    
    I'll preface my question with the thought that where ever God is
    working the enemy is going to follow.  So, its not surprising to
    hear both good and bad ocurring here.  
    
    Have you seen people barking like dogs or the other strange behaviors
    that have been reported?  How often does this happen?  1% of the
    time?  10% 50% 75% ?  How do these people act later?  Do they have
    a true conversion or show renewed zeal for God? 
    
    Thanks
    Jill2  

Two comments:

The CT articles are definitely balanced, and combined with the Jonathan Edwards article, 
make good reading.   One comment, to the effect that Satan would love to make Christians 
look wierd, bears some thinking.  But a good reading, with pros and cons.  

Friends of ours in the UK have a church (Baptist) that has embraced the "Blessing" 
somewhat, and they are very uncomfortable.  Similar to the charismatics, some  people who 
are into it have given the message (not explicitly, but have implied) that they aren't saved 
unless they exhibit the flashier manifestations of the Spirits' presence.  That's a hard 
environment to worship in, not to mention being bad theology.

Is this of God?  Good question to ask (among others on my long list) when I'm face to face!

- Don Randall

Reformatted to 80 characters for those of us frustrated at missing the end
of every line :-).



           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 794.49                     Toronto Blessing                        49 of 49
NWD002::BAYLEY::Randall_do "Software:  Making Hardw" 15 lines  13-SEP-1995 17:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two comments:

The CT articles are definitely balanced, and combined with the Jonathan Edwards
article, make good reading.   One comment, to the effect that Satan would love
to make Christians look wierd, bears some thinking.  But a good reading, with 
pros and cons.  

Friends of ours in the UK have a church (Baptist) that has embraced the 
"Blessing" somewhat, and they are very uncomfortable.  Similar to the charis-
matics, some  people who are into it have given the message (not explicitly, 
but have implied) that they aren't saved unless they exhibit the flashier 
manifestations of the Spirits' presence.  That's a hard environment to worship
in, not to mention being bad theology.

Is this of God?  Good question to ask (among others on my long list) when I'm 
face to face!

- Don Randall

    Question:  in following spiritual deception, would you still get to see
    God face to face?  
    
    Mike

Don re .49

>Friends of ours in the UK have a church (Baptist) that has embraced the 
>"Blessing" somewhat, and they are very uncomfortable.  Similar to the charis-
>matics, some  people who are into it have given the message (not explicitly, 
>but have implied) that they aren't saved unless they exhibit the flashier 
>manifestations of the Spirits' presence.  That's a hard environment to worship
>in, not to mention being bad theology.
>

That would not be the view of any pastors and leaders in this renewal that I 
know of. We would not hold the view that have these manifestations has anything 
to do with salvation. We would not want to imply this in any way shape or form.

Orval

re:  -1.  Right.  Though the leaders may not want it, it seems that
followers may be implying it.

    I have got a page on the Web for our local church with pointers to the
    Toronto Airport Vineyard, New Wine Renewal Info And the Association of
    Vineyard churhes. These pages contain papers and documents regarding
    this current renewal. If you wish to check this out its at:
    
    	http:://www2.ebtech.net/~odeboer/vineyard
    
    Orval

>re:  -1.  Right.  Though the leaders may not want it, it seems that
>followers may be implying it.

Of course.  But that followers may be implying it, in the face of continued
direct instruction to the contrary, does not reflect on the leaders nor on
the movement itself.

As human beings, we're capable of screwing anything up.  I'm not surprised
that this movement has people who are trying to take it in wrong directions. 
That doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong.

Paul

    re: .51
    
      I don't think anyone who has any sin at all in the heart would
      want to see God face to face.  Such a person would be consumed.
    
      Deception is a sin.  To be deceived is to fall short of the 
      glory (character) of God.
    
      Its a privelage to see God face to face, but it can only be
      survived by one in whose heart is no sin whatsoever.  Else
      the unveiled revelation of His perfect purity would be a
      consuming fire.
    
    						Tony

    I have attended a few services where the Holy Spirit has moved in such
    a way that some people fell over, some laughed, some wept, some
    shrieked as they were delivered of demons. I myself have had
    experiences where God has made me laugh and laugh, I have had
    experiences (but too few) where God has made me weep. I have fallen
    over under the power of God several times and I have prayed for people
    to be refilled with the Holy Spirit and they have fallen over.
    
    One experience which, for me, is another confirmation that the laughing
    is from God came last year when I prayed for a friend of mine who had
    just got saved. He stumbled around for a while as if drunk and then
    collapsed on the floor laughing. When he 'sobered up' he first of all
    started to thank God for the cross and then secondly started to
    intercede for the lost. This was all prompted by the Holy Spirit
    working in him, which had initially manifested itself in drunkeness and
    laughter.
    
    I think that those who write off the TB are jumping to too many
    conclusions. Remember that the Holy Spirit is like the wind, Jesus said
    that you don't know where it has come from or where it is going - the
    wind is invisible. You can't see wind but you can see evidence that the
    wind is here (ie the trees sway, you may hear the whistling as it goes
    through an alley, etc.) and it is the same with the wind of the Spirit.
    You can't see Him but you can see the evidence - and in this time of
    renewal you have to look at the lives affected to see the evidence of
    God having moved (ie the fruits). Throughout this country there are
    numerous testimonies of people who's lives have been radically changed
    for the better through this current move of God - that is the prrof to
    me.
    
    There will always be people who go over the top in any move of God,
    there will also always be a serious attempt by Satan to sow seeds of
    doubt by throwing in false prophets and the like to make it look wrong.
    You could look at christian rock bands who lose theire way and start
    preaching and living a false message - does this mean that all
    chrisrtian rock bans are of the devil?? There have been TV evangelists
    caught in adultery - does this mean that all TV evangelists are of the
    devil. And so you will find people involved in this move of God who are
    not right with God, you will find people following their flesh rather
    than the Spirit - you may even find church leaders duping their flock,
    but this does not mean it is of the devil - every believer has a
    responsibility before God for what they do with what God has done in
    them - some invest it and press on, others bury it and just stagnate or
    go backwards - you will find this in every move of God.
    Of course there are places that are dwelling too much on the
    manifestations rather than God Himself, but the majority of places in
    the UK are most definitely going on leaps and bounds with God. 
    
    I have seen enough fruit to know that God is visiting this country in a
    mighty way - it's not revival, but it is a cloud the size of a mans
    fist which I hope will become torrential rain over this very needy
    country.
    
    Bless you all
    love
    Ben 

    Amen! We never can put a cap on the Holy Spirit.  
    Thanks Ben. 

>    Amen! We never can put a cap on the Holy Spirit.  
>    Thanks Ben. 
    
    No, we can't.  However, we cannot attribute to the Holy Spirit actions
    which cannot be supported (either directly or by deduction) by
    Scripture. 
    
    jeff

   From the Sunday, December 10, 1995 edition of "The Atlanta Journal/The 
   Atlanta Constitution", page A22, under the column of "WORLD IN BRIEF"
   is an item headlined

    DISPUTE OVER WORSHIP:  In a split certain to send tremors throughout
    Pentecostal Christianity, a controversial Canadian congregation known
    for its ecstatic worship style that became known worldwide as the
    "Toronto blessing" has been ousted by its Anaheim, Calif.-based parent
    denomination.  Pastor John Arnott of the Airport Vineyard Fellowship
    in Toronto said he was told last week by the Association of Vineyard
    Fellowships that his 1,000-member congregation has gone "over the edge"
    by encouraging worshippers to be so filled with the Holy Spirit that 
    they would bark like dogs, swoon to the floor and laugh uncontrollably 
    during services.  The Toronto blessing has spread to churches in 
    several countries, including the United States.


   Credit is given as "From our news services"

    Well PRAISE GOD that someone in Vineyard finally got a clue!
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    Why do you walk in such harsh judgement?
    

    Not wanting to speak 'for' Mike...
    
    In this case, I believe Mike is correct. There are many things
    associated with this 'movement' that, if not downright deceptive and
    evil, are at least psychological mumbo-jumbo (e.g. mass-hypnotism).
    
    This does *not* preclude individuals receiving a 'blessing' from God in
    this manner. But (and this is a big one) there appears be very little
    Biblical Basis for this 'movement'.
    
    Harry

Thanks Ron (author of .60) 

Offers me a spot for as commercial break:

    Ron is our faithful custodian of the archives -
	ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V1, ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V2, ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V3, 
	ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V4, ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V5, ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V6

    Drop in and check them out some time.  
	You might see some familiar faces - and discussions! ;-)


Back to normal service(s)...


Orval (?), .62, Do you attend (or have you attended) the Toronto church and
feel a blessing from it? - I'd be interested in a first-hand perspective!

I'm sure none of us would denigrate the work of the LORD, but the aspects 
of this which have received most publicity tend to focus more on man and, 
humiliation to an animal level, rather than the sort of humility which
enters God's presence and honours Him.  Many people from other places have
gone seeking principally for the outward effects.  There may well be
blessing among those who are sincerely seeking the LORD with no thought for
self, but the media obviously have s different focus, and the reports are
inconsistent with, for instance, 1 Corinthians 14:19,33,40 - ie, public
worship should be conducted in an orderly way which all Christians present
can clearly understand. 

So I believe that Mike (Harry's had his turn, now I'll be Mike ;-) is glad 
to see the Vineyard Fellowships establishing a positive position on the 
Word in this delicate area.

						God bless
								Andrew

    From:	US3RMC::"new-wine@grmi.org" 13-DEC-1995 03:41:25.08
To:	Multiple recipients of list <new-wine@grmi.org>
CC:	
Subj:	[NEW-WINE] TAV Press Release

December 12, 1995

In the wake of the announcement last week that the Toronto Airport
Vineyard (TAV) has been disengaged from the Association of Vineyard
Churches (AVC-- Anaheim, CA) John Arnott, Senior Pastor of the TAV is
issuing the attached open letter for general distribution.  Also attached
is John Arnott's letter to John Wimber, International Director of the AVC,
issued subsequent to their meeting on Tuesday, December 5, 1995. 

Discussions are still in progress and the status of the TAV is currently
under review. The TAV will publish information as it becomes available. 

For more information contact Daina Doucet: 
Toronto Airport Vineyard
(416) 674-8463
_________________________________________________________
 	AN OPEN LETTER FOR GENERAL DISTRIBUTION
	FROM JOHN ARNOTT
	Senior Pastor, Toronto Airport Vineyard
	DECEMBER 12, 1995

As you probably know by now, the Toronto Airport Vineyard (TAV) will be
disengaging from the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC).  This will
officially take place on January 20, 1996, at which time we will announce
our new church name, etc. It is also the second anniversary celebration of
the outpouring of God's Spirit at the Toronto Airport Vineyard. 

This decision to separate was initiated by the US AVC Board.  John Wimber,
Todd Hunter, Bob Fulton and Gary Best from the Board personally visited
Toronto Airport Vineyard on December 5, 1995, to announce their decision
to our senior staff. We were surprised at the finality of the decision. We
had hoped to have some input into the process. We thought the Board was
not getting an accurate picture of what was taking place at the renewal
meetings and that any issues could be explained and resolved.  The Board,
we were told, thought otherwise and we were offered no opportunity for
discussion. We were removed without due process. 

The bottom line, we were told, is that the Board felt Toronto Airport
Vineyard renewal services were not mirroring the Vineyard model. As well,
John Wimber felt he could no longer answer questions, including innuendoes
and rumours, regarding the renewal services. Rather than ask us to revamp
the renewal meetings, they released us to continue on as we believe God is
leading us. Wimber agrees that the Holy Spirit is moving in Toronto, its
just that he (Wimber) feels the AVC Board is not called to shepherd
something outside the ministry model God has given them. While our local
fellowship follows closely the Vineyard model, the renewal services, it
seems, do not. 

In a letter drafted after the meeting, we apologized to the AVC Board for
mis-reading the intent and extent of their concerns (see attached letter
of December 5, 1995). They have accepted our apology. We will be parting
on friendly terms. We still have the same Saviour and the same enemy. We
realize that God is Sovereign over everything, including any mistakes His
children might make. 

We have asked several Senior leaders from around the world to form an
International Renewal Network. They would act as an Advisory Counsel to
help steer and facilitate this renewal.  In addition they will act as a
temporary leadership covering for our church until such time as new
alliances are formed. We hope that those inside and outside the
Association of Vineyard churches will feel free to fellowship with us and
continue to flow in this move of God. Please pray that God will give
wisdom to all those involved. Our heart's desire is to facilitate and
pastor this renewal movement according to the Father's Heart. Our meetings
are still open to the whole body of Christ. The Cross of Christ remains
our central message. 

We do want to publicly thank John Wimber and the AVC Board.  This current
move of God's Spirit would not have achieved its world-wide reach and
impact without them.  They have modelled Christ to us; they have been
ministers of healing to us -- we cannot thank them enough.  We are not
saying goodbye.  We simply recognize that the Sovereign Lord is moving
this stream of the Holy Spirit along a new tributary. The major difference
this decision makes is that if anyone wants to know "What's going on in
Toronto?", they now need to ask the leadership in Toronto. Other than that
it is onward and upward for us. We hope that all discussions in media and
cyberspace will reflect the continuing good will between AVC and the
Toronto Airport Vineyard. We hope that all will continue to practice the
love and mercy of Jesus that we have preached for so many years. "Beloved,
let us love one another." (1 John 4:7)

Sincerely in Christ's Service
John Arnott for the Toronto Airport Vineyard Christian Fellowship


____________________________________________________________
Toronto Airport Vineyard

December 5, 1995

Dear John:

We so appreciated you taking the time to visit us in Toronto.  While the
meeting was challenging for all parties concerned, I do believe we heard
each others' hearts. 

John, thank you for taking so much "heat" and criticism for us.  We
sincerely apologise for the stress and hurt we have caused you.  We are
sorry that we misread the intent and extent of your concerns.  We were not
fully aware of the challenges that the move of God's Spirit in Toronto was
causing you.  We understand your position and we agree that the Toronto
Airport Vineyard is not called to speak for the entire Vineyard movement. 
We acknowledge God's call on your life to pastor the entire Vineyard
movement and we acknowledge that some of what is happening in Toronto is
outside the Vineyard model.  We agree that you and the Vineyard movement
should not have to continue answering for the move of God's Spirit in
Toronto. 

We don't understand all of the Lord's plans, but we believe that we are
called to help facilitate this particular move of His Spirit.  We
understand that the long-term implications of this move of God may diverge
from what He is doing within the Vineyard movement.  That is His
prerogative.  We are doing our best to be faithful stewards of what God
has entrusted to us, as are you. 

John, we accept the Board's decision to have our church disengage from the
Association of Vineyard Churches.  Would you allow us to leave with your
blessing?  We ask you to take this action to minimize serious hurtful
repercussions for the Body of Christ.  We think very highly of you and the
Vineyard, and we have so appreciated the times we have shared.  We want to
continue fellowshipping with all who love Jesus and to continue
ministering God's love to the whole Body of Christ.  We too want to focus
on preaching the Cross of Christ to all who come for refreshing. 

Thank you for your years of ministry that provided such a wonderful
environment for this current move of God. 

On behalf of our church and our pastoral staff,

Sincerely in Christ,
John Arnott, Senior Pastor





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% X-Comment: Discussion of Toronto Blessing and present-day revival

Andrew re .64,

>Orval (?), .62, Do you attend (or have you attended) the Toronto church and
>feel a blessing from it? - I'd be interested in a first-hand perspective!

I do not attend TAV (Toronto Airport Vineyard) but rather are part of a Vineyard
in Sarnia 3 hours from Toronto. The churches here have worked closely with
each other fo years and as a result know John and his senior staff quite well.
We go when we can to Toronto and for example this Sunday eve we will host the
service in Toronto so the staff and members there may have thier Christmas
program. Our worship team will lead worship as well as our pastor will conduct
the renewal meeting. Our ministry team will also conduct the ministry time.
So again I am not part of but have a close working relationship with TAV.
Also The Digital office I work in is a remote of Toronto so end up going
to Toronto for work during the day and attend renewal meetings a night again
helping as part of the ministry team.

As far as first hand perspective The manifestations do occur but the media
and critics have given this so much more attention than it deserves.
Thousands of testimonies are of renewed committmant, increased zeal for God
and boldness to evangelize. To me this brings glory to God.

    Re: .62
    
    >    Why do you walk in such harsh judgement?
    
    Orval, I just follow the Bible.  If that's a problem, you should
    discuss it with God.  Pray that God reveals the truth to you.
    
    Mike

>    Orval, I just follow the Bible.  If that's a problem, you should
>    discuss it with God.  Pray that God reveals the truth to you.

I've been sitting here with this in front of me for 10 minutes, trying to
figure out how to respond to you, Mike.

Certainly I'm no stranger to telling people they are wrong, and I wouldn't
presume to try to tell you not to tell people they are wrong when that is
what you think.  But could you try to be less patronizing when you do it?

As you know, I disagree with you on this subject, and on others which have
been brought up here, and I VERY MUCH seek to follow the Bible.  I don't know
Orval well, but would expect, from what he has said, that he also seeks to
follow the guidance of the Word.  Most of the places where we have disagreed
have come from the fact that your perspective seems to allow for only two
classifications for anything: Explicitly permitted in the Bible, and thus
correct, or forbidden or not explicitly permitted in the Bible, and thus
wrong.  I split the latter category into two pieces:  Forbidden in the Bible,
and thus wrong, or not explicitly specified in the Bible, and thus possibly
OK, but to be watched carefully.

There are certainly some things going on in Toronto that bear careful
watching.  But there is a move of God going on there (and all around the
world) which is remarkably similar to other great renewals in history.  I for
one am not willing to throw out the whole thing as 'not of God.'

I'm not going to get into another long argument with you about the Toronto
Blessing.  I assume you will need to post another note saying how unbiblical
you believe it to be, with which I will likely disagree with for the reasons
mentioned above.  You're free to get the last word, but I wasn't willing to
let you have the ONLY word.

Paul

Mike,
    
>    Orval, I just follow the Bible.  If that's a problem, you should
>    discuss it with God.  Pray that God reveals the truth to you.

Are you saying I don't follow the Bible? Don"t answer me on that please.
The point is that I do believe I follow the Bible. And I don't have a problem
with that. That is good. I have taken it to God though as I also did before
I respond to your note. See you and I see and interpret some things different.
Some of these are the legalistic issue of whats allowed and not allowed.
You may say that some of these things (ie. manifestations) are non-biblical
I would say they are extra biblical. I would put many other things we do in
that catagory. Many things we do daily are then non or extr biblical. The 
Sunday School program you run at your church is non or extra-biblical as
there are no directives in scripture as to how to run or even whether we
should run these programs.

We are not going to see eye to eye on this and I am not going around again
on this whole issue so I will not keep replying here.

Mike do you have access to the Web? If so I have a homepage which I put 
together for our church. My statement of faith and values and practices
and priorities are posted there. You can find this info on a hyerlink
called "Who Are You Guys Anyway?" The page also has links to info and 
testimonies as well as a link to Toronto.

Page location:	http://www2.ebtech.net/~vineyard

In Love 
Orval  

    Re: extra-biblical
    
    This has to be one of the saddest adjectives I've seen in here to
    "justify" this movement.
    
    Mike

    yes Mike,
    
    and *boy* does it open us up to a can of worms!
    
    Look at all the 'cults and 'isms' around that take the Bible and add to
    it in one way of another. A 'further revelation', an 'explanation of
    what God _really_ meant', the 'new Gospel of Christ'... it just goes on
    and on. All error. All man wanting to wrest control from God. All
    wanting to achieve salvation on man's terms.
    
    {sigh}

    I agree with Orval that the bible does not make direct reference to
    many of the things of today... for example, it doesn't say anything
    about dentists, though I wish we could treat them like it says about
    witches... ;-)
    
    But I believe the bible does give hints, and some text can be used to
    argue for or against all sorts of things, even dentists.  In my view,
    the exhortation to order in public worship is very relevant to this
    situation.  But somebody let some known gossipers (journalists) in to a
    renewal service and so the incorrect perceptions have been propogated.
    
    James

 I believe the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, and I
 can't help but think that seeing people rolling around on the floor laughing
 and barking like dogs certainly gives the impression of confusion.




 Jim

    The only way to "justify" acting like animals and making animal sounds in
    church has to be "extra-biblical."  Therein lies the problem.
    
    Galatians 5:7-9
    Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
    This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
    A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENETH THE WHOLE LUMP.

    Well so muich for the Christmas spirit.... sigh

    Nancy,
    
    other than the over-commercialised, out and out capitalist
    money-grubbing aspects of the so-called 'Christmas spirit' (and they
    are the good points), what does this 'Christmas spirit' have to do with
    extra-Biblical heresy?
    
    * Harry in a somewhat dark mood

	Harry,

	Which *doctrine*, propounded by the TAV, do you identify as
heretical?

							Bob^3

    Bob, the heresy and extra-biblical activities are laughing
    uncontrollably and making animal noises in church and blaming it as
    some manifestation of God's Holy Spirit.

    Mike

    Bob^3,
    
    others. Forgive me.
    
    Perhaps I over-acted in calling it 'heresy'. Better might be "serious
    error".
    
    H

	Hmmm... Sounds like a pretty thin "heresy" to me.  This is the
first time I've heard of something that isn't a matter of doctrine
called a "heresy".  Unless...  Has TAV has actually *made* it a matter of
*doctrine*?  If it is written down, preached from the pulpit, and expected
to be followed, then it can be identified as a heresy.  Can you cite such
a reference, e.g. something in official TAV church doctrine that says:

"Laughing uncontrollably and barking like a dog during services is always a
true manifestation of the Holy Spirit (never merely bizarre human behavior),
and all church members in good standing must do this at least once a week."

	Harry,

	No need to apologize to me.  I'm just trying to understand what's
really going on, and whether it really involves "serious error" on the part
of the TAV leadership.

	Some people do some awfully strange things in the name of religion
in many/most/all churches.  Some of these things are obviously dangerous
and destructive (from a Biblical perspective).  Others may require a much
closer look, and a rush to judgement may not be appropriate.  "Strange"
isn't necessarily "bad", although it is often a cause for concern.

	Paul does admonish the Corinthians that everything should be done
decently and in order in the church assembly, that people should wait for
each other before speaking, etc.  It *is* difficult for me to reconcile
what is *said* to occur at TAV with this clear Scriptural directive.

							Shalom,
							Bob Sampson

    following are some articles from a magazine here in Australia ("The
    Briefing", issue #152, March 7, 1995).
    
    I will place each of the 4 articles in the following four entries.
    
    Harry

Out of Africa

    In January I stayed in London for 2 weeks with a friend who is in
    Anglican clergyman. He told me how it seemed that all the
    evangelical/charismatic churches around him were talking of a great
    revival that had come upon them and was being called the 'Toronto
    Blessing'. He then lent me a set of audio tapes of the preacher who was
    responsible for the promotion of this particular brand of revival.

    I was intrigued, for the preacher was a South African called Rodney
    Howard-Browne and, as a South African myself, I was surprised that in
    the eyes of the 'politically correct' UK church, anything good could
    come from South Africa.

    What I heard on the tapes amazed me. Instead of some powerful new
    teaching, all I heard was old style pentecostalism with all the hype
    and fervour that characterises much African preaching. If this was
    God's great revival, then it had been happening in the South African
    Pentecostal scene for at least twenty years, and had not done the
    country a whole lot of good in that time. I concluded that in this
    instance nothing good had come from South Africa.

    You can imagine my great joy when, within a week of returning to
    Sydney, I discovered that God was bringing the last great revival to
    Australia through the ministry of this same Rodney Howard-Browne. I
    went along to the final night of the week-long series of revival
    meetings at Brookvale. After half an hour of singing, the 4000 or so
    there were ready for the appearance of the key player in the
    proceedings. Appear he did, along with a massive thunderstorm, which
    made it very difficult for Rodney to be heard. When the thunder
    stopped, we were told that wherever Rodney went and revival came, the
    rains came. Any similarities to the Pope's theologizing of the rain a
    little earlier were purely coincidental.

    The next fifty minutes were spent with Rodney teaching people about
    giving money as a way of "sowing into Revival". We were told that "God
    does not want us to live like rats" and that if we blessed others with
    our money, God would bless us more abundantly in return. We were told
    that the key to revival was to become a generous giver and that unless
    we became such givers, God would not bless us. Rodney exhorted us to
    bless those involved in revival ministries, and that a church that
    wanted revival should save up its money and then bring in a really good
    preacher who could "really shake the town up". Rodney was careful to
    tell us that none of the money collected that night went to his
    ministry, but rather to the host church.

    A highlight for me was when Rodney had everyone place their hands on
    their own heads and chant repetitively after him, "I am a giver, I am
    not a tight-wad, I am a giver". Rodney was aware that his prosperity
    teaching was not universally recognized as being biblical, and so came
    his well reasoned defence: "People say to me, 'What about the poor in
    India?' So I say to them, 'What about the poor in India?!'" The reason
    people are poor in India, Rodney suggested, was because they are not
    Christians.

    Following this, we had Rodney prepare us for a time of ministry by
    reading Acts 10 for us, and concluding that the key verse was v. 44
    "while he was speaking the Spirit fell on them". This was read out four
    or five times, each time followed by Rodney blowing into the microphone
    to try and make the sound of a rushing wind.

    To further help us be open to the Spirit falling on us in the
    distinctive way of the Toronto blessing, Rodney's wife shared her
    testimony of how allowing the Sprit to make her laugh uncontrollably
    had changed her life. She moved to the microphone looking reluctant,
    shy, and timid. She began telling us how she was the sort of person who
    liked to "have everything figured out", "to be dignified" and to "be in
    control".

    After five minutes, as she began to tell us of her first experience of
    laughing in the Spirit, she appeared to lose control of herself and for
    another five minutes alternately laughed, looked like she was drunk
    and/or going to faint and continued her story in snatches of a word or
    two at a time. This was the key for groups of mainly women throughout
    the audience to begin laughing and shaking hysterically. As this began,
    she stopped laughing and proceeded to deliver ten minutes of articulate
    and powerful rhetoric urging us all to "let go and let God". The
    transformation from timid wife to revivalist preacher under the
    influence of the Spirit was complete.

    Rodney then took over, and for another hour "lead" this time of
    ministry. Interestingly, whenever he was talking, the hysteria and
    laughing and shaking reached fever pitch, and when he stopped, it
    slowly died down. He would wait while things quieted down, and then
    begin another round of preaching. Suddenly, in the midst of all the
    laughing and shaking, Rodney called on all those who wanted to be born
    again to raise their hands. Only a few responded at first, so he then
    called for all those who wanted to rededicate their lives to Jesus. We
    left at this point, but I understand about 250 people eventually went
    forward for counselling.

Conclusions

    From what we observed, there was no teaching from the Bible, no
    preaching of the gospel, no mention of the cross of Christ and no basis
    given on which people might turn to Christ.
    
    All good lies contain half truths, and this was evident in the
    prosperity teaching. It is true that God wants us to be generous and to
    bless others, and that he does want to bless us. However, there was no
    thought that the blessing he might want to give us would be that of
    martyrdom or sacrificial servanthood and suffering for the sake of the
    gospel. I have heard this brand of prosperity teaching before by
    preachers in Africa. Now, as then, I cannot comprehend how people who
    have grown up on a continent where thousands of Christians starve to
    death each year can embrace and teach such ungodly falsehood.

    The ultimate authority to which Rodney appealed was not the Bible, but
    rather what the Spirit had told him, and what he and his ministry had
    experienced. Despite his relentless denigration of "tradition" and
    "religion", in the end he theologized his Pentecostal tradition as
    being the only true demonstration of God's work in the world.

    The phenomena of laughing hysterically in the Spirit, and of losing
    control and being 'drunk in the Spirit' are things I have seen
    previously in black African Pentecostal circles. In fact, eight years
    ago I was working amongst tribal Africans in the bush in South Africa,
    and some of them manifested these very phenomena. Interestingly, the
    pentecostals in our team regarded these manifestations as demonic in
    nature!

    To claim that these experiences of laughing and hysteria are the work
    of the Spirit of God bringing in a great revival is at worst deceptive
    rubbish and at best biblically unprovable theologizing of religious
    phenomena common in many religions. Whether intentionally so or not, it
    was a highly manipulative performance that relied for its effects on
    large crowds, the personality of the preacher, and a good deal of
    auto-suggestion and peer pressure. It was only once Rodney's wife had
    demonstrated the phenomena that others started to manifest them.
    
    The real question remaining is: 'Is it really from God?'. In as much as
    it was not Christ centred, gospel centred or Bible-based, I would find
    it difficult to imagine the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ pouring out
    the Spirit of Christ in such a manner. Even a Pentecostal friend of
    ours, who was supportive of Rodney, commented that he thought there
    were elements of the meetings which may not have been of God. God might
    use the meetings to bring blessing to some, in the same way that he can
    speak through a donkey and bring good out of evil, but we are still
    left with a manipulative methodology and a thoroughly unbiblical
    message.

    [Mark Leach is on the pastoral team at St Alban's Anglican Church,
    Lindfield, in Sydney.]

    

Why doesn't it last?

    I have just returned from a visit to the United Kingdom. Everywhere I
    went people asked me my opinion about the 'Toronto blessing'. It is a
    wee bit embarrassing when you have to admit that you have not so much
    as _heard_ of a 'Toronto blessing'. Understandably, I was unable to
    express an opinion about this phenomenon.

    I have now been able to rectify this. The 'Toronto blessing' is the
    latest in what now is a long procession of so-called blessings in the
    charismatic movement. People fall to the ground, some laugh, some make
    noises like animals. It is said to be a genuine work of the Holy Spirit
    and people claim that they have been greatly blessed by their
    experience. Some have described it as a new beginning in
    sanctification. Some who had grown cold in the Christian faith have
    been revitalized. Others are just overwhelmed by the wonder and majesty
    of God and literally fall before him.

    One of the few advantages of growing old is that you realize that the
    more things change, the more they stay the same. Over the last thirty
    years, we have seen the charismatic movement go through many phases.
    Firstly, there was the 'tongues' movement. Unless my memory has
    deserted me, its benefits were exactly those claimed for the Toronto
    blessing. Then came the healing movement, which was eclipsed by words
    of knowledge and prophecy, and now Toronto.
    
    Why haven't these movements delivered what was promised? Why do we
    continually need bigger and brighter blessings to keep us living the
    Christian life? Why does it have to keep reinventing itself?

    The charismatic movement fails at two very important points.

    1.It fails to take seriously the clear statement from God that we are
    to "count it all joy when we fall into various trials" (Jas 1:2). Each
    new aspect of the charismatic movement has relieved people of some
    physical or mental trial. It cannot deliver what is promised because
    this is not God's way to make his people mature (vv. 2-4). Within such
    movements, promises of physical healing are made, and yet people are
    not healed; words of knowledge are brought which prove to be incorrect;
    prophecies are made and do not come to pass. Why has no one admitted
    that he or she was mistaken, and repented? Why haven't those who
    brought unfulfilled prophecies of God's judgement against their fellow
    Christians admitted their mistake and been reconciled to their brothers
    and sisters?

    2.It is now clear that the charismatic movement is not evangelical in
    its orientation. I am not urged to go to the Bible to find the
    blessings which God has in store for me: I am urged to share an
    experience of God which someone else has had and which is claimed to be
    available to me. Is this not a frontal attack on the sufficiency of
    Scripture? According to 2 Timothy 3:17, the Scriptures, which are
    God-breathed, are given "so that the man of God may be thoroughly
    equipped for every good work". For someone else to urge, or even
    suggest, that I should seek something from God which cannot be shown in
    the Scriptures is to suggest that the Scriptures will not equip me for
    every good work. Furthermore, there is a difference between what God
    may do privately with a believer and what he has promised to do
    collectively for all his people.

    PEOPLE DO HAVE experiences of God which are out of the ordinary. One
    which the apostle Paul had is recorded in 2 Corinthians 12:1-10. I
    assume that, had the Corinthians not provoked the apostle, he would
    never have told them of it. It was private. It was something between
    him and God. He neither suggested nor urged that they seek it.

    However, what God promises for us all is clearly stated in the
    Scriptures. Irrespective of how meaningful my private experience with
    God was, I am not to urge you to seek anything unless I can show it is
    available from the Scriptures.

    I call on all Christian people to be men and women of the Scriptures
    and not to seek or to urge upon others that which cannot be clearly
    shown from God's Word.

John Chapman
    

No Laughing Matter

by Tony Payne

    Rodney Howard-Browne walked slowly down the aisle in my direction. He
    was a bull of man, short, thick-necked and tremendously broad across
    the shoulders.

    He pointed at the man sitting in front of me, "Dear brother, come here.
    Stand up and come right here. Raise your hands and close your eyes."
    The man did as he was told. Mr Howard-Browne stretched out his hand
    towards the man. "Oh yes, here it comes. Wadch cuma ho ho shayim (or
    words to that effect). Right now!" The man collapsed backwards, was
    caught by some waiting attendants and gently lowered to the floor. I
    looked at his face. It was calm and smiling, as if he were having a
    pleasant dream.

    What would I do or say if he pointed next at me? Everyone else he had
    called upon in the last 20 minutes had gone down. Some shook. Some
    collapsed before they had made it out of their seats. One man swayed
    towards the floor several times but did not go down, like a punch-drunk
    boxer trying to make it to the end of the round. Mr Howard-Browne was
    not interested in a points decision. "Don't fight it. Let go. Hit him
    again, Jesus. Now!" Down he went. Others were lying on the floor in
    groups where they had fallen, some laughing, some just smiling, others
    making groaning noises. One man quite close to me was lying flat on his
    back laughing uncontrollably, as if being tickled by some invisible
    agent. Mr Howard-Browne returned to him and with a grin put his foot on
    the man's chest. The man grabbed his ankle and laughed all the louder,
    as did all those around.

    Another thought also disturbed me. What if swoon or go into a trance
    like the lady down the front on the left? She had stood motionless with
    eyes closed and arms raised for 30 seconds before going down, and Mr
    Howard-Browne had taken a camera from someone nearby and taken a family
    snap for her to remember the occasion. What if he did that to me and
    published the photographs? My credibility would be in tatters.

    I looked slowly up from the man lying on the floor beside me. My heart
    was pounding. It was 1:30 pm. We had been in the meeting since 10, and
    I had not eaten since breakfast. It was hot. I felt slightly giddy and
    light-headed. Despite my intentions otherwise, I feared that if I was
    called upon to stand up, close my eyes and raise my hands I too would
    be a goner.

    I frantically tried to think what I would say. A strong "No thank you"
    perhaps? Or "No, I'm feeling rather tired. You sit down here if you
    want to talk to me." Rodney Howard-Browne looked at me, and then turned
    slowly and headed back down the aisle. For the first and only time that
    morning I said quietly to myself, Thank you Lord.

    
    THIS CLOSE ENCOUNTER of the Pentecostal kind took place on February 7
    at a meeting organized by the Christian Life Centre at Brookvale in
    Sydney. The visiting speaker, Mr Rodney Howard-Browne, is a prominent
    exponent of the 'Toronto blessing', a phenomenon of alleged spiritual
    revival which his Christians talking in Canada, the US and Britain.

    It all started in January of last year in Toronto, Canada, (hence the
    name) at the John Wimber-affiliated Airport Vineyard Church. An
    outbreak of very demonstrative and widespread physical manifestations
    (such as falling down, shaking, and, in particular, uncontrollable
    laughing) convinced those present that God was giving them a special
    anointing or time of revival. People flocked to see what was happening
    and to taste the blessing for themselves. It spread. Evangelists like
    Rodney Howard-Browne now take the 'blessing' with them to churches all
    over the world.

    As with the Wimber brouhaha of a few years ago, evangelicals are being
    divided over what is happening. In England, the 'blessing' has been
    greeted with some enthusiasm, one prominent Evangelical Alliance pastor
    going so far as to say. "I believe we are on the edge of of (sic) what
    could be the greatest thing to hit our nation this century".(1) Others
    are not so sure. The Evangelical Alliance thought it necessary to call
    a special consultation in December of last year to discuss the
    phenomenon, and to issue a cautious joint statement about it.

    In this article, we'll take a look at what is new about the Toronto
    blessing and what we are to make of it all.

What's new

    The meeting opened with a lengthy, expertly led and superbly
    accompanied singing session. The band was without doubt the best I have
    heard in a Christian meeting. The songs were musically very
    good-exciting, fast-moving, and singable - and flowed seamlessly from
    one to the next, with times of informal worship in tongues happening
    between some of them. judging by the faces and bodily attitudes of
    those around me, the effect of 45 minutes of this, all standing, and
    most of it with arms raised, was quite intoxicating.

    The singing was followed by a 50 minute talk from Rodney Howard-Browne
    on the importance of financially supporting itinerant evangelists,
    although he denied repeatedly that he was after money himself. There
    was some more singing.

    So far, nothing new - a common or garden Pentecostal meeting.

    There followed, however, something that was new - a second sermon,
    lasting nearly an hour, which contained trenchant criticism of a number
    of pentecostal sacred cows. The practice of daily 'putting the armour
    on'; the obsession of some churches with 'territorial spirits'; the
    fascination with casting out demons and putting the angels out over our
    loved ones and possessions; the importance of all-night prayer as the
    precursor to revival were all lambasted by Mr Howard-Browne as part of
    our ongoing obsession with finding the 'secret' to the anointing. He
    insisted that there was no formula, no secret, no set of things that
    one had to 'do' in order to receive the anointing. "The anointing is
    not a formula; it is a relationship." (Cheers. Amens.) If God really
    was alive, and ready to bless (more Amens), then all we had to do was
    yield to him. We had to relax, not take ourselves so seriously, and let
    the Jesus in our bellies come bubbling out. It's up to God. He'll do
    it. We need to be freed from the bondage of trying to get it to happen
    by our own techniques. Just let it happen.

    All this was cleverly done, with plenty of humour and self-mocking. The
    sad irony, of course, was that the whole meeting, and particularly the
    'ministry time' that followed the sermon, was nothing but another
    example of this ongoing search for the secret of the 'anointing'. Mr
    Howard-Browne, and the Toronto blessing, are nothing else but the
    newest and best technique for being 'touched by the Spirit'.

    As the meeting proceeded, and people started being laid out, nothing
    happened that hasn't been well-documented in pentecostal movements
    throughout the world during this century. Indeed, John Wimber is quoted
    in Christianity Today as saying that the Toronto manifestations are not
    particularly new to the Vineyard fellowship: "Nearly everything we've
    seen-falling, weeping, laughing, shaking - has been seen before, not
    only in our own memory, but in revivals all over the world". I
    certainly saw nothing at Brookvale that I had not seen (and
    participated in) in charismatic meetings in Lismore in the late 70s. It
    was a reprise of good ol' fashioned Holy Ghost revivalism, 90s style.
    There were the usual techniques - long meetings, plenty of singing,
    plenty of standing, an engaging speaker who persuaded you to like and
    trust him, the expectation that things would happen, the suggestion
    that things would happen, seeing things happen to other people, the
    standing with eyes closed and arms raised before receiving the 'touch'.
    
    It was all so carefully managed and so artfully staged, that I wondered
    how anyone could possibly believe that this was a spontaneous activity
    of the Spirit of God. I wondered how anyone could. imagine that there
    was no 'technique' or method involved (as the sermon protested), and
    that it was simply an example of God 'doing whatever he wanted to do'
    (an oft-repeated phrase). Why did the anointing not fall in the middle
    of the sermon? Or at the very beginning of the meeting? Why did the
    Spirit not shy the musicians in mid-song, or Mr Howard-Browne himself
    in mid-gesture? Why did it all happen after 3 hours of preparation and
    mediated only through Mr Howard-Browne?

    Indeed, when he first took the podium approximately one hour into the
    meeting, Mr Howard-Browne was quite explicit about the time it took for
    it to 'happen'. "This is not a one hour photo lab", he explained. "We
    need longer than that to deal with your negatives. It takes time. But
    trust me. We know where we're going. We'll get there." It seems God
    could do whatever he wanted to, so long as you were prepared to wait
    the three hours.

    There is unfortunately something else that is not new about the Toronto
    blessing-and that is that evangelicals are being taken in by it.

What are we to make of it?

    The quest for the New is one of the abiding characteristics of
    Pentecostal movements everywhere. The very theology of pentecostalism
    requires that God keep doing new things. Fresh and exciting 'moves of
    God' must keep occurring, for pentecostalism draws its life from what
    God is doing now, here, in me, rather than on what God has revealed and
    done, for me, in Jesus. This explains Mr Howard-Browne's criticism of
    existing Pentecostal techniques. The old must be demolished to make way
    for the new.

    If we look back over pentecostalism's recent history, God begins to
    appear like a good marketing manager. He needs to re-launch his product
    every few years, with some new packaging and some new improved
    features-first as the 'Baptism in the Spirit' with tongues, then as
    'the healing ministry, then as 'the healing of memories' (remember
    that?), then as 'power evangelism', then as 'words of knowledge', and
    now it seems as the 'Toronto blessing'.

    The charismatic or pentecostal alternative is ever-present and
    ever-changing. It presents itself under new names and guises, and will
    always do so, for its very nature is to relentlessly pursue the New.
    Underneath, however, there is nothing new. it is the same theology,
    mystical and Arminian in its structures, focusing on us and our
    experience rather than on God and his work, and distracting us from
    proclaiming the gospel of Christ crucified.

    The new packaging is invariably attractive. Why would we expect it to
    be otherwise? In the mid-80s, it was John Wimber, coming to us as a
    self-proclaimed evangelical, promising a new lease of life to tired,
    rationalistic preachers. Now in the mid-90s, we have an outbreak of
    physical manifestations which are being marketed under the 'Jonathan
    Edwards' brand-name. The Toronto evangelists quite explicitly claim
    that their experience is in a direct line of descent from the revival
    that broke out in New England under Jonathan Edwards nearly 200 years
    ago. Again, the message is subtle but clear. "This may look like just
    another push by pentecostalism, but really it is Jonathan Edwards again
    in your midst. Jonathan Edwards - great reformed and evangelical
    theologian. He had strange things happen in his meetings. So do we.
    We're true blue. Climb aboard."

    The Jonathan Edwards connection is distant, to say the least. [...]

    One question remains however. If we recognize the 'Toronto blessing' as
    simply another Pentecostal incarnation, what are we to make of the
    physical manifestations? Is that not a worry? Should we deny that these
    things are taking place? Are they of God or the Devil? How are we to
    explain them?

    So that we know what we are talking about, let us list the kinds of
    phenomena involved. When the anointing falls, participants report the
    following:

    feelings of weightlessness 
    feelings of heaviness 
    a feeling of being stretched 
    catalepsy (being unable to move) 
    shaking
    repetitive movement of body parts 
    rapid eye movement 
    changes in breathing 
    tingling
    alleviation of pain and diseases (such as migraines, stuttering, back
    pain, dyslexia, bursitis, and so on)
    a feeling that body parts are changing in size or swelling
    a feeling of being detached from your body 
    a powerful feeling of energy or electricity coursing through the body 
    hearing a buzzing noise 
    changes in hearing
    smelling a sweet aroma, like flowers 
    seeing a bright light 
    being aware of hot and cold areas on the body
    feeling drunk
    feeling washed clean 
    a distortion in the awareness of time passing 
    age regression (vividly recalling and even acting out childhood
    incidents) 
    uncontrollable laughter.

    Most of these phenomena are being experienced under the Toronto
    blessing, and all of them have been reported as regular occurrences in
    Pentecostal meetings when people are 'slain in the Spirit'.(2) 

    What is really interesting is that all of these phenomena are also
    well-documented as being the common results of hypnosis.(3) Subjects
    undergoing mass hypnosis regularly exhibit precisely these
    manifestations, sometimes by autosuggestion and sometimes
    spontaneously. Equally interesting is that the conditions that produce
    such hypnotic phenomena show remarkable similarities to the average
    Pentecostal meeting - the strong control of a central figure, an
    atmosphere of intensified emotion, a strong motivation and expectation
    in the participants, and the opportunity to imitate others so affected.

    Moreover, apologists for these manifestations of the Spirit readily
    admit that certain sorts of people seem more susceptible (more 'open to
    the Spirit') than others. As Francis MacNutt observes in his book
    Overcome by the Spirit:

    "People determinably self-controlled are not nearly so likely to be
    overcome by the Spirit...people with compressed lips and tightjaws...I
    have noticed that artistic, creative, intuitive people seem more likely
    to fall than rational, intellectual types... In general, more women
    than men seem to experience resting ['resting' is one of MacNutt's
    phrases for falling over or being slain in the Spirit]. the most likely
    to rest would be a young woman of Latin American or African ancestry,
    of artistic bent ... whose childhood has been filled with games and
    laughter... If I could characterize the kind of person least likely to
    fall... he would be an elderly man of Anglo-Saxon or Germanic ancestry
    who had a hard childhood and very little play."

    It is instructive to compare this with the findings of Hall and Grant
    concerning susceptibility to hypnosis(4):

    "The key to successful hypnosis is motivation.
    The Latin people, the Spanish and the Italians in particular, are
    usually thought to make better subjects than the less emotional and
    more suspicious Anglo-Saxons; and near the bottom of any list would be
    the Teutonic Germans.
    
    Scientifically minded people generally make rather poor subjects
    because they are so analytical... Women seem to be more susceptible
    when they are hypnotised by men...
    
    There is a clear link between mood and susceptibility, and creativity
    and susceptibility. Dark moods mean poor subjects, bright moods good
    subjects; and fantasy and adventure in childhood mean hypnotisability
    as an adult."

    That the Toronto meetings are examples of mass hypnosis is supported by
    the verdict of five English doctors who attended very similar meetings
    conducted by John Wimber in the late 80s. Having witnessed the
    phenomena (trance-like states, trembling, laughing, shaking, laughing
    and so on), all five doctors attributed them to hypnosis. According to
    one of the five, a leading English psychiatrist, "It was a very expert
    performance, containing all the textbook characteristics of the
    induction of hypnosis". (See 'A medical view of miraculous healing',
    Briefing #33, p 2).

    All this raises serious and important questions, both psychological and
    theological, which we will have to save for another article. We are not
    accusing Mr Howard-Browne and others of deliberately engaging in mass
    hypnosis, but it seems likely that this is what they are doing, even if
    unwittingly. They have discovered that if you run a meeting a certain
    way, and the conditions arc right, then certain things happen - strange
    things, inexplicable things. They have discovered, for example, that
    you need to allow several hours for it all to happen, and readily admit
    to this. When the strange occurrences finally present themselves, they
    are then attributed to a powerful and immediate working of God's
    Spirit.

    This is a terrible deception. These occurrences are being sought by
    good-hearted believers all over the world as the key to an ongoing
    close walk with the Lord. We must gently but firmly warn our brothers
    and sisters of the danger that they are in. Ultimately, only spiritual
    harm will result when we confuse orchestrated hysteria with the life of
    true joy and self-control that comes through keeping in step with the
    Spirit.


NOTES
    1 Gerald Coates quoted in Evangelicals Now, Oct 1994, 8.
    2 For details, see N. Mikhaiel, Slaying in the Spirit, (Bruised Reed
    Publications, 1993), ch 2.
    3 Again see Mr Mikhaiel's book for all the references.
    4 Timothy Hall and Guy Grant, Superpsych (Methuen, 1976).

    

Disenchanted evening

    I visited the Christian City Church at Brookvale last night, having
    been invited by two separate friends. The leader and speaker was Rodney
    Howard-Browne, a stocky man with a South African accent who has come as
    a representative of the Toronto Church.

    I went with no hostility or defensiveness and actually prayed that I
    would learn anything that would be pleasing to God. There were about
    3000-4000 people in the auditorium and it seemed to me that 50% of them
    were men, and rugged men too. At the sight of this crowd my first
    reaction was that if this is 'of God', Australia should be reeling.

    We sang for an hour and a quarter. Rodney Howard-Browne then moved the
    proceedings forward with a talk on Elijah and God's provision through
    ravens and widows it was a powerful sermon, but only loosely connected
    with Scripture.

    Mr Howard-Browne called the full-time evangelists forward and about
    sixty went out, some wailing very loudly. At about the same time some
    women started to shriek with laughter in the distance. The evangelists
    were 'slain' as Mr Howard-Browne shouted "Jesus!" at the about the only
    time the name of Jesus was mentioned. It was a strange atmosphere - a
    combination of tragedy and comedy. I felt we were all at a theatre.

    We were told to open Hebrews 2:1 (the ultimate irony in exposition) and
    warned to pay attention so that we would not drift away. Mr
    Howard-Browne had also put together an appallingly bad collection of
    anecdotes from church history to show that God is always surprising
    people. The use of Scripture and history at this point was quite
    skewed, but not many others among the thousands there seemed to notice.

    Soon, more people felt free to laugh. Groups began to form around the
    room. One man was carried out in a heap.

    Mr Howard-Browne addressed the 'religious' at this stage with a few
    unanswerable jibes: "We don't do this in our church? We're not in your
    church! I don't like what I'm seeing? At least something is happening
    here! " His powerful voice brought Amens from all over the room. His
    charge was to make this 'movement' public-just "as Pentecost was
    public"! (Giggling will hit the streets en masse if all the people who
    agreed to be 'bold' keep their word.)

    There was no sense of sin in the meeting - just pride. No need for
    salvation was expressed - we just needed God's help to go and "light
    fires". There was little reverence or even maturity in the proceedings.
    Pastor Phil Pringle was in such hysterics that he fell slowly to the
    floor where he laughed.

    My overwhelming feelings were of sadness, and a sense of tremendous
    waste. I longed for five minutes with such a crowd to tell them of
    God's word or humanity's need. Last night there was no gospel and no
    real honour to Christ, only a sense of confusion.

SIMON MANCHESTER

    Simon Manchester heads the pastoral team at St Thomas' Anglican Church,
    Nth Sydney.
    

    Thanks for posting those, Harry.  There was also a recent CRI
    newsletter where RHB laid his hands on a CRI reporter to impart the
    "blessing" on her and nothing happened to her.  Makes one wonder what
    the source really is when it has no effect on rock-solid believers.
    
    Mike

    Although I have expressed my views already in this section
    (don't ask me where, it was quite a while back) I want to add a bit
    more following things that have been written here and things which I
    have heard from other sources.
    
    I am very sceptical of the main exponents of this movement. I still
    believe that God has been moving powerfully in this country but I also
    believe that a lot of people have been deceived. Personally I have no
    respect for Rodney Howard Browne and do not trust his ministry (this is
    also true of a lot of 'big names' in this movement). I also do not
    believe that the animal noises, in particular, are of God. But I do
    believe that a lot of people who have approached God with a sincere
    heart, seeking Him _NOT_ manifestations have been greatly blessed and
    have moved on in their walk with God. To be honest, though, the fruit I
    had hoped to see in the churches in my area that have moved in this has
    not yet appeared which is making me even more sceptical.
    
    I guess what I am trying to say is that my whole view of this is
    shifting to a point now where I am not sure which is God (because I
    still believe there is a lot of God in this) and what is of man and
    what is of Satan. I pray that we will all be granted greater
    discernment to know the truth in all of this.
    
    Love
    Ben
                                   

    amen