T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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766.1 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Wed Aug 02 1995 16:13 | 3 |
| Does 287.306 help?
Andrew
|
766.2 | Yes, thanks | CIVPR1::STOCK | | Wed Aug 02 1995 18:41 | 6 |
| Yes, Andrew, thanks - that's exactly what I was looking for in the
second part of my question.
Still looking for an answer on the first part, though...
/John
|
766.3 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Thu Aug 03 1995 11:10 | 40 |
766.4 | | REOELF::PRICEB | Deuteronomy 33:12 | Sat Aug 05 1995 09:43 | 17 |
| I've never really thought this subject through so I am only writing
here a theory about Saul and Sanuels ghost that I have heard before but
don't necessarily agree/disagree with:
Some commentators (the opposite of rare tators!!) suggest that the
witch of Endor actually brought up a demon posing as Samuel. I guess
this brings us to the dodgy subject of spiritism and mediums and ask
the question of them "Do they bring up the spirit of the dead or do
they bring up a demon which poses as the spirit of the dead to fool
those who are being sucked in to such a dangerous practise???"
As I said before, I have no definite convictions/answers, this is just
someone elses opinion
Love
Ben
|
766.5 | "Samuel" the deceiver | SALEM::RUSSO | | Mon Aug 07 1995 06:43 | 45 |
| >Note 766.4 by REOELF::PRICEB "Deuteronomy 33:12"
>I've never really thought this subject through so I am only writing
>here a theory about Saul and Sanuels ghost that I have heard before but
>don't necessarily agree/disagree with:
>Some commentators (the opposite of rare tators!!) suggest that the
>witch of Endor actually brought up a demon posing as Samuel. I guess
>this brings us to the dodgy subject of spiritism and mediums and ask
>the question of them "Do they bring up the spirit of the dead or do
>they bring up a demon which poses as the spirit of the dead to fool
>those who are being sucked in to such a dangerous practise???"
Ben,
As I agree with those commentators; that it was a demon posing as
Samuel, I will endevor to explain why. First, looking at 1Sam 28:6
we see God is not answering Saul. Then Saul seeks out the spirit
medium. After telling her who he wants contacted(28:11) and hearing
her description of him, Saul assumes it's Samuel; but was it?
"Samuel" tells Saul (28:19) that Isreal would be given into Philistine
hands and the next day Saul and his sons would be with Samuel;
indicating they would die in battle with the Philistines. That didn't
happen. Saul was wounded in battle but died of suicide. But his sons
did not all die, contrary to the prediction by "Samuel"; Ishbosheth
survived 2Sam 2:8-10. If "Samuel" was speaking for God, the prophecy
would not have fallen short. Also, God was refusing to answer Sauls pleas.
Hecertainly wouldn't have answered Saul via "Samuel" after Saul broke
God's explicit law at Deut 18:10-12. Actually, we see the result of Saul's
actions at 1 Chronicles 10:13 where it says NWT "Thus Saul died for his
unfaithfulness with which he had acted faithlessly against Jehovah
concerning the word of Jehovah that he had not kept and also for asking
of a spirit medium to make inquiry." Inquiring of the dead is very
detestable to God.
Also, as pointed out in another note the dead are concious of nothing;
Ecc 9:5,10. So by following God's law against inquiring of the dead we
are protected from deception such as Saul experienced. Messages do come
from the spirit realm. Eph 6:12 talks of wicked spirit forces; Satan
and his disobedient angels/demons. Like Satan they are liars and
deceivers.
It's truly foolish to inquire of the dead. First because it is
displeasing to our heavenly Father and why do it? We have God to ask
for help! He is happy to help the honesthearted(Luke 11:9-13).
robin (a scarce visitor to the conference)
|
766.6 | | WENDYS::PRICE_B | Ben Price | Mon Aug 07 1995 08:28 | 8 |
| Robin
Thanks for entering that - it makes a lot of sense to me and backs up
what I already thought was true (but didn't have the theology to back
it up).
Love
Ben
|
766.7 | Comentators' theories... | CIVPR1::STOCK | | Mon Aug 07 1995 14:23 | 10 |
| If - the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and
If - the Bible says
"And Samuel said to Saul..." I Samuel 28:15 KJV
"Then said Samuel..." I Samuel 28:16 KJV
"...the words of Samuel..." I Samuel 28:20 KJV, then
Where does that leave the theories of commentators who claim otherwise?
|
766.8 | re-edit of 766.8; results of seldom using NOTES | SALEM::RUSSO | | Mon Aug 07 1995 17:30 | 22 |
| <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;2 >>>
-< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 766.8 After Death? 8 of 8
SALEM::RUSSO 14 lines 7-AUG-1995 13:21
-< The Bible is God's Word; no doubt about it. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re:-.1
In Gen 3: is the account of the serpent talking to Eve; as is the case
with Samuel: it was a deception. Satan and his followers are great
liars and deceivers. We need to be always on guard. Today we have the
benefit of looking back to these accounts. We see the serpent lied to
Eve; we see Samuel was wrong regarding all of Saul's sons dying. This
proves the words/prophesies spoken in these accounts were not from God
as they fell short of the truth. As Isa 55:11 points out, what God says
WILL happen.
BTW... in the NWT 1 Samuel 28:12,15,16,20 have Samuel in " ". Is Samuel
highlighted in any way in the KJV? and other versions? Just curious.
robin
|
766.9 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Mon Aug 07 1995 19:41 | 17 |
| My perspective stays with .3 The general case is for a deceiving spirit to
pose as an individual invoked through a medium. The fear of this medium
in 1 Samuel 28:12 was because instead of her usual experience, Samuel
actually appeared. Hence the explicit use of his name, as John opinted out
in .7 .
On the death of Saul's sons, in the versions I have consulted (including
Young's literal), there is only an indication of 'sons' plural; not
necessarily 'all'. That would be the usual understanding of the English
translation, but not the exclusive meaning. I'd need a Hebrew scholar to
get closer than that!
Robin, in these verses, Samuel is not put in any special form in any other
translation I have, and I have heard a low estimation of the accuracy of
the NWT. Others here can give a lot more information than I can, though.
Andrew
|
766.10 | heard but not seen???? | SALEM::RUSSO | | Mon Aug 07 1995 20:36 | 38 |
| re: Note 766.9 ICTHUS::YUILLE
>My perspective stays with .3 The general case is for a deceiving spirit
>to pose as an individual invoked through a medium. The fear of this
>medium in 1 Samuel 28:12 was because instead of her usual experience,
>Samuel actually appeared. Hence the explicit use of his name, as John
>opinted out in .7 .
What do you think her "usual" experience was?
As for fear; verse 12 says she began crying out but it also points out
that she went on to say to Saul ""...Why did you trick me, when you
yourself are Saul?"NWT. If scared it was in fear of Saul having her put
to death(1Sam 28:9). And how do you suppose she suddenly recognized
Saul? Did Samuel actually appear? Granted the medium "saw" him to
describe him and both the medium and Saul heard him but vs 14 has
Saul asking what his form is; the medium has to describe him. From the
description Saul "recognized" that it was Samuel. I see this like my
describing an apple to someone and they recognize it's an apple from
the decription; they don't really have to physically see it. I may
have missed it; is there a verse that shows Saul saw Samuel?
>On the death of Saul's sons, in the versions I have consulted (including
>Young's literal), there is only an indication of 'sons' plural; not
>necessarily 'all'. That would be the usual understanding of the English
>translation, but not the exclusive meaning. I'd need a Hebrew scholar to
>get closer than that!
>Robin, in these verses, Samuel is not put in any special form in any other
>translation I have, and I have heard a low estimation of the accuracy of
>the NWT. Others here can give a lot more information than I can, though.
FYI.. the NWT also uses "sons" in 1 Sam28:19 "..and tomorrow you and
your sons will be with me...." This low estimation you heard; have
you accepted this estimation or have you researched it yourself?
Well, at least we can agree on one word 8-)
robin
|
766.11 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Mon Aug 07 1995 21:07 | 23 |
| Hi Robin,
I was passing on what I had heard of this translation, as compared with
those generally accepted. NWT is used solely by Jehovah's Witnesses, and
in the past, I have discussed issues with local JWs where doctrine hinges
on where their unique translation differs from others. As I mentioned,
there are those in this conference who have researched this to a much
greater depth.
According to verse 12, it is the sight of Samuel that opens the woman's
eyes. It is when she sees him that she realises that she is in the
presence of no ordinary manifestation. She has already addressed the
point of Saul removing the mediums in verse 9, and he, by his insistence
includes himself in any guilt. There are examples of people being tricked
to their death in this sort of situation, but the emphasis here seems to
indicate that this was not her concern.
We are not told the layout of the scene; whether Samuel was hid from Saul
by a curtain, etc. I don't see it as significant. In fact, I don't think
there's too much to be gained by pressing the physical circumstances of the
episode further, given the limited information in scripture.
Andrew
|
766.12 | God doesn't use mediums for a channel of communication | SALEM::RUSSO | | Tue Aug 08 1995 15:26 | 14 |
| re: Note 766.11 ICTHUS::YUILLE
>We are not told the layout of the scene; whether Samuel was hid from Saul
>by a curtain, etc. I don't see it as significant. In fact, I don't think
>there's too much to be gained by pressing the physical circumstances of the
>episode further, given the limited information in scripture.
Andrew,
I agree, it's not significant if there was a curtain etc. The main
issue is that Saul was disobeying God's explicite commands by seeking
out advice via the medium. That in itself should be clear enough
evidence that "Samuel" was not sent from God or speaking for God.
robin
|
766.13 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Tue Aug 08 1995 15:29 | 4 |
| I agree that this was not a communication sanctioned by God in any way, and
that Saul thereby brought judgement on himself.
Andrew
|
766.14 | | SALEM::RUSSO | | Tue Aug 08 1995 16:00 | 9 |
| Andrew,
Back in .3 you mention Samuel was not there of his own volition. From
this I get the impression you think it was realy Samuel. I can't agree
with this as I believe the dead are concience of nothing at all and are
as sleeping. Even if you don't agree with this belief; does it make
sense that God would allow Samuel to be used by this medium?
something to ponder, robin
|
766.15 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | He must increase - I must decrease | Tue Aug 08 1995 16:26 | 21 |
766.16 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Aug 08 1995 19:08 | 6 |
| >The New Testament position is that the saved leave this life to be
>immediately present with the LORD.
Where they pray for us to the LORD.
/john
|
766.17 | re:.15 | SALEM::RUSSO | | Tue Aug 08 1995 21:25 | 39 |
766.18 | "As It Were In A Moment..." | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed Aug 09 1995 12:50 | 23 |
| I have looked to being with the Lord a little bit. Maybe
I'll go back to it.
But, one thing I think is important is the idea of perspective.
I mean, should the dead really be dead until resurrection,
there is complete cessation of consciousness until that time.
So, from the perspective of the person who dies, he is immediately
with the Lord after death.
I mean...the person dies and has no consciousness. His next
conscious moment is one of seeing His Savior, i.e. being with the
Lord.
From his perspective, he is immediately with the Lord. There is
no passage of time, no waiting from the only perspective that
the saints have - from their own.
As it were in a moment, they have some conscious remembrance just
before death and a next conscious experience of beholding the face
of Christ and being with Him forever.
Tony
|
766.19 | | CHEFS::PRICE_B | Ben Price | Wed Aug 09 1995 13:13 | 6 |
| That's a good point Tony - when I sleep I am not aware of time, time
starts again, as it were, when I wake up and often I couldn't tell you
how long I'd slept for.
Love
Ben
|