Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Thomas, I don't do it myself (I actually loathe it due to my upbringing
    but that's another rathole), but drinking isn't going to keep you from
    being saved (if that is what you mean).  God's Word says not to get
    drunk only, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.  Being creatures of
    habit, sometimes things like this can snowball so extreme caution
    should be taken.  God will deal with you on this in His own time.
    
    In the meantime, I suggest reading Romans 14 (actually all of Romans
    for a better understanding of God's grace) on judging other believers.
    
    Mike

    mike, i respect what your saying and from your experience in your
    upbringing, you will see it from your view....you've called it
    "drinking" because the culture has taught us that consuming more than
    one alcoholic beverage is "drinking" and "drinking" has a negitive
    ring to it when your a christian.............i look at it as consuming
    more than one alcoholic beverage because i like the taste of that
    particular product, and do not drink it to get drunk and do not rely
    on a buzz to replace the spirit of god................i'm aware of the
    scripture "not to get drunk, but to be filled with the holy spirit...if
    i ever drank to get drunk id know it in my heart....but i do agree with
    you about this, anything can snowball........i know many overeaters
    who have built igloos from there snowballs..................
                       thomas
    

    I actually agree with Mike. My upbringing causes me to be overcautious
    to alcohol consumption of any kind.  
    
    Nancy

        Hey, you could have a few bowls of ziti and still drive safely.
	Can you say the same about a few beers?

        I don't have the stats to prove this, but I believe that alcohol
        figures very prominently in crime as an agent that impairs the
        judgement and loosens the inhibitions.  Don't get me wrong.  People
        are responsible and must be held accountable for their own actions,
        but they usually use booze to grease the skids for stuff they know
	is wrong.

        As for brethren in the Lord judging other brethren, I don't think
        that's as much of a problem as the unbelievers that will judge you.
        Many unbelievers have a concept of what holiness is, and they
        measure us against it constantly.  Some study the Bible just to
        justify their behavior by pointing out "inconsistencies" they
        perceive in it and in the behavior of its adherents. We have a few
        atheists in our area who routinely point these things out (with
        glee) in letters to the editors of our local paper.

        What about the possibility of causing the weaker brother to stumble?
	Do you love him more than the taste of beer?
	How many does it take to impair your judgement just a wee bit?
        Would you trust the counsel of someone who's had a few beers?
	Do you hold your pastor to a higher standard than yourself?

        Hey, if they legalized cocaine, would it be ok for Christians to
        partake thereof?  You know, like, socially.  Once in a great while.

	Peace,
		TonyC
		

    My cut is,

    all things in moderation. Even moderation itself ;')

    	Jesus drank wine.  His first miracle was to make wine.
    
    	Are we making some sort of distinction between wine and beer?

    tonyc-
       holy spirit provides wisdom with the understanding of the word of
    god...i know we are to submit to authority and i agree no alcohol at
    any level then go drive your car, it's wrong, alcohol does hinder you
    your vision, etc.......my opening notes explains in detail, i think, my
    does and donts......if im at a friends, i stay anyway, wisdom is
    needed...........they drank fermented wine in jesus' time on earth...he
    talked about the bad idea of putting new wine in old wineskins because
    the wineskins would break,,,why? common sense explains he was speaking
    of fermented wine that would break open the skins because of the
    strength of the alcohol...............for thousands of years gods
    chosen people, the jews, have drank fermented wine....they drank it
    around jesus....all he talked about was drunkards and drinking partys...
    he didnt judge it at a moderate level........look at the jews for a
    moment, did you know among alcoholics, stats say the jews have the
    lowest numbers in alcoholism........i know conservative jews that drink
    wine during their meal everynight.....
                  i do believe hard liquor or as the bible calls
    it.."strong" drink is made to get someone drunk with its high alcohol
    content in most...but wine and beer is less and has a more acquiring
    taste for it with less alcohol in the less volume amount
                   how can one judge me, please re-read my opening
    letter...god knows my hear and my control................thomas......

    .7
    
    Thomas,
    
    You opened a discussion that you knew would probably gain you some
    criticism.  It's not judgement, you asked for people's opinions
    regarding beer tasting Christians.
    
    Please don't discourage honest discussion by saying Tony judged you.
    
    Nancy

    FWIW,
    
    I like beer.  As with Thomas, I drink beer for the flavor.  Unlike
    Thomas, I admit to liking the relaxing affect of beer after a hard day. 
    This is not to be confused with a "buzz" or "drunkeness", however.  I
    find this no different than drinking coffee in the morning to help you
    wake up- both caffein and alcohol are drugs (caffein is actually 
    more addictive, but alcohol in responsible for a lot more harm than
    caffein).  Drugs in themselvels are not bad until they are abused. 
    
    I also homebrew beer.  I do not like cheap beer (much as many people do
    not like cheap wine, I suppose), I like the expensive ones. 
    Homebrewing is an inexpensive way to make "good" beer (rather than
    paying a fortune for a 6-pack in the store).  I enjoy making the beer
    more than drinking it, actually.  There is something about crafting
    your own recipe that is appealing to me.  It is also a good feeling to
    have someone try your recipe and compliment you on it.
    
    With that said, I must warn of how even an innocent beer or two can
    lead to a bad  habit.  I've noticed that my one or two beers a week
    have turned into one or two a night (which, fwiw is certainly not an
    unhealthy amount- there are even health benefits in this- but that
    really isn't the point).  Having noticed my innocent beer or two increase
    beyond what I deem as a reasonable amount for myself, I have dedicated
    the next month to the Lord and will be fasting of all alcohol during
    this time (I'm also limiting my intake of pop to the weekends, as well).
    
    I guess my point is that vigilance is necessary.  Though there is nothing 
    wrong with having a beer or two (IMO), it can most certainly lead to 
    unhealthy habits if you are not careful.  It may also be harmful to a 
    weaker brother or sister that may not have as good a handle on the effects 
    of alcohol on their body.  Some are far more inclined to forming abusive 
    habits than others.
    
    Moderation is one of the keys to life, except when seeking to better
    your relationship with God.  You can't seek too hard, too long, or too
    much, when it comes to God. 
    
    
    -steve

 I believe God will ultimately let you know when its time to give it up,
 if He hasn't already.  When I first became a Christian some 16 years ago,
 I was quite a beer drinker.  And one of the first things I wanted to know
 was "is it ok to drink beer?", and I asked one of my neighbors, a man who
 was an elder in the church I attended.  He replied, that on a hot day after
 mowing the lawn and working in the yard, etc, a cold beer would be OK.  Well,
 I had my answer.  I continued to drink heavily, to the point there were times
 I'd pick up a six pack on the way home from church on Sunday nights..


 During a 6-7 year period of backsliding, I became a homebrewer.  I too loved
 the taste of a good beer or ale.  However, on December 19, 1992 when I asked
 Jesus Christ to forgive my backsliding and to come back in my life, I was
 rather quickly convicted that homebrewing, drinking and a committed Christian
 life don't mix.  My homebrew equipment went out the door.


 God will let you know, quite clearly, when its time to give it up, again if
 He hasn't already.  As with many questions such as this, I think we really
 know what the answer is.




Jim

Given that Jesus bracketed his ministry with alcohol, turning water into wine
as his first miracle and using wine as a symbol of his blood at the last
supper, I don't understand the basis for a blanket assertion that any and all
alcohol is bad.  Certainly drunkenness is spoken against in many places, but
I'm not aware of any scriptural prohibition against alcohol in moderation,
except for a Nazarite vow, which is not a general prohibition.

I also have a beer now and then.  Like Steve, I like better beers, and I'm
able to afford them because a case lasts me a year or so.  I also like a
glass of wine with a nice dinner.  Though I succumbed to drunkennes a few
times in my youth, alcohol has never had a hold over me.  I don't believe
that there's anything about occasional light consumption which conflicts with
faith in Christ.

Within that, there's 1Cor 6:12 and 10:23 to work with: "Everything is
permissible, but not everything is beneficial."  I've had a sense for a while
that God is eventually going to ask me to give up alcohol completely.  Not
because alcohol is bad, but because it is not beneficial.  More in the nature
of a boycott against a substance that has caused untold human misery.

Paul

Hello Thomas,

From your introductory note, it sounds as though you feel, with many
Christians, that logically and Biblically there is nothing wrong with
drinking alcohol.  But you feel uncomfortable because you are at variance
with your pastor's specific teaching on this. 

There are two principles to apply here.  One is not to give offence to
others - so whatever you believe before the LORD is right for you, you
would respect the stance of the church members when you were with them, so
as not to offend them.  If you had the pastor (or similar members, or
anyone who had a weakness in controlling their desire for drink) in your
house, you would neither offer them alcohol to drink, nor drink it
yourself, nor have it outwardly 'on show'. 

This principle is laid down in Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 10.  Especially 1
Corinthians 10:27-30.



The other principle is that of conscience.  If you see nothing wrong with 
drinking alcohol, but feel uncomfortable about it (possibly through your 
pastor's teaching), you are quite free to abstain from alcohol, even though 
you believe it is permissable, and even enjoy the taste.  You are not under 
bondage to drink it.  You can just choose to sacrifice this appetite for 
the LORD's sake - for love of Him and the brethren.

See : 1 Timothy 1:19, 3:9 (cf 4:2), 2 Timothy 1:3 , 1 Peter 2:19, 
      1 Peter 3:15-16,21


The thing to avoid is a defensive attitude.  One that says "I will, even 
though I know the people I respect say it's wrong".  That speaks of an 
unteachable spirit, which is resisting spiritual truth for the sake of 
temporal appetite.  The absolute rightness or wrongness of a debatable
activity is secondary to this.  If you know in your heart that your spirit
would be more comfortable abstaining, even though your body sees no reason
for its appetite to be denied, then your own peace of mind would be better
served by following the spirit than the mind - ie by abstaining.  Note that 
this decision is temporal - it may not be your permanent situation, but 
should not be taken on any other basis than where the LORD is leading you 
right now.

					God bless
							Andrew

      Hi,
    
        I am pretty sure the Greek in the miracle of the changing of
        water into wine can speak of grape juice or wine.  I tend to
        think it speaks of grape juice especially in light of the fact
        that Jesus made the 'last batch' so to speak and (if wine) I
        can't help but wonder if His miracle could have caused others
        to get intoxicated.
    
        But, anyway, I just want to talk about motivation.  Basically,
        what I see is that eventually a people will so thirst for
        a deeper revelation of God that they will want the sharpest
        minds possible.  They simply will find it too hard to let anything
        get in the way of a closer walk with Jesus.
    
        I can testify to a late pizza on a Saturday evening just destroying
        any blessing I might have had by waking early the next morning and
        partaking of His word.  I can see one or two beers doing the
        same thing.  Sort of blunting the desire to sup with Christ.
    
        "The love of Christ constraineth us."  (2 Corin 5:14)
    
        I think legalism is a part of the experience when the degree
        with which one appears particular about lawkeeping EXCEEDS the 
        degree to which one is actually motivated by Christ hung for you.
        Any other motive is not of faith.
    
        For years I have wrestled with coffee and watching competitive
        sports.  As an example, I have always been a Packer fan.  I can
        remember back as far as the late 80's when the Pack with Don
        "Majik" Majkowski beat the Bears in the last seconds.  I was
        thrilled they won, but God seemed so far away.  Or if I have a
        cup of coffee, I experience the speed effect and have placed 
        myself in a less controlling spirit and can't discern the Spirit
        as well...I'm just too hyper.  And then when the coffee effect
        wanes, I am in a bit of a stupor and I still can't discern the
        promptings of the Spirit as well as I could have had I not had
        that cup of 'weak amphetamines.'  (Oh, I know its really not
        amphetamines, but it is speed and lacks any nutritional value
        whatsoever.)  Nothing good about it.
    
        Let the cross motivate you and nothing else.  Let the degree to
        which you are particular run side to side with the degree to 
        which Christ hung for you motivates you.
    
        No particular is too particular so long as the motivation is
        the love of God.  But, we're all at different points.
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony

    The beauty of the replies thus far is that God meets us all where we
    are on our way to spiritual maturity.  Whatever level you are on, God
    will deal with you and purge you as He sees fit in His time.  
    
    For some it's drinking beer, some it's food, some it's smoking, and
    maybe even emotions like short-temperedness.  The important thing is to
    not condemn someone who God is dealing with just because you think it's
    wrong.  Within Biblical guidelines, none of the above will cause you to
    lose your salvation.  Unfortunately, the church doesn't always make
    this distinction and condemns those who are trying.
    
    Mike

 My pastor once said that the first thing he wants to ask the Lord upon 
 entering heaven is "when you said wine in the Bible did you mean alcoholic
 type wine or grape juice".  Of course he wasn't serious, but it reflects
 what the question he hears most frequently.





 Jim

   I think wine meant wine and not grape juice.  First of all,
   there was no refrigeration & things naturally ferment.  We
   toured a winery last summer, and they said that to make 
   grape juice they have to intervene to prohibit fermentation
   right after the grapes are crushed.  The fermentation process 
   begins almost immediately.  Secondly, how could a person get
   drunk on wine if wine were unfermented grape juice?

   But that aside, I too think that moderation is the key here.
   There are many other natural substances besides alchohal that
   can be abused or misused also.  One should not drink for the
   purpose of getting drunk or for escapism.  I am careful not
   to serve wine or beer in situations where it will offend or
   tempt guests.

   Leslie

    
    RE: .0
    
    Good day Thomas.
    
    I think moderation and discernment are the keys here.  Based on the
    scenario you gave (a couple of drinks a month at home with a meal)
    I wouldn't think there would be a problem.  I think you need to stay
    open to the Holy Spirit's leading regarding the situation.  But in
    general the 3 points already made frequently would be my only concern
    (don't be drunk, don't cause others to stumble, and your motivation 
    for drinking should not be to be filled with a spirit - I guess that 
    would be the buzz/numbness).
    
    I am a non-drinker.  I don't even have one drink of anything in a year.
    Not that I have never had a drink.  I drank briefly (lightly) in my 20s
    for a few years.  I have not drank at all in nearly 4 years.  For me 
    I have family members and friends who have had trouble with drinking, 
    so it just doesn't have much of an appeal for me.  I don't feel it's 
    something God has asked me not to do, I just don't want to. 
    
    God bless,
    Jill

    my brothers ans sisters
    
         i appreciate all of your replys and nancy, i wasn't really saying
    that tony c was judging me, but i was on the defensive.....it is my
    deep conviction that a few beers a month with a nice dinner is not
    sin because god knows my individual heart......i agrre that alcohol
    can snowball into a problem like food and other things we can use
    as a crutch, dependancy....																																																						
           why do some avoid the evidence that in jesus time the alcohol
    was fermented by saying it was just grape juice? granted, jesus would
    not turn water into wine to have a brother stumble....the brother has
    the choice himself to do that and go outside the limits of moderation
    with anything god has created.......alcohol has ruined many
    lives,including my earthly fathers...............in control, it will
    not ruin mine.....
         we eat and drink so much foods that are impure and contaminated by
    man that have an effect on our bodys and our minds, certain mixtures
    of different foods and drinks can actually cause a fermentation process
    of a different kind in our bodies.........who among you doesn't eat
    something with sugar in it? sugar is a cancer to our bodies....this
    culture doesnt know how to eat right......many things called pure and 
    natural are by far that..................we are a contaminated people
    in this world but by gods grace pure thru his sons blood........
         jesus said "its not what enters a man but that which comes out of
    him" thats important....thank god for the new covenant and that we
    dont have to live by the old law that what enters him is
    defilement...if its impure, we'd all be in trouble........it is
    important to eat as healthy as you can of course.......all in
    moderation, the spirit will let you know if your over doing something
    
                   in jesus,  thomas

	Thomas, you don't drink to get drunk. You have committed no sin. You
have a couple once in a while, with a meal. No sin has been committed, PERIOD. 

	You will find that due to people's lives, they may do without alcohol
altogether. For them this is fine. They have their reasons. But you drinking at
the limits you do, is not sinning. 

	You will find that many will want people to not drink period, because
someone who is weak to alcohol might see them drinking, and join them. Some of
these people will consider any alcohol consumption, for the above reason, is
actually a sin. In reality though, it is not. If you know of one who is weak to
alcohol, it would be good to not drink around them. But it is not a sin. 



Glen

	We once attended a church where the pastor was a Chemist.
	Here is a summary of his position on fermentation.  It may or may
	not be correct.

        1. Most freshly squeezed fruit juices have trace amounts of alcohol
        in them.

	2. Alcohol is the effluent of yeast feeding on the sugars in the
	fruit juice.

        3. This process causes a "foaming" action.  The Hebrews had 9
        different words for wine. "Foaming" was one of them.  Check your
        Strongs.  

	4. As this process to continues, the temperature becomes critical.
	If the temperature rises above 70 deg F for more than a few hours,
	the sugar->yeast->alcohol process will be halted, and a
	yeast->bacteria->acid process will take over.  The bacteria will
	eat the yeast and turn the wine into vinegar.

	5. In order to allow the sugar->yeast->alcohol process to continue,
	the wine had to be stored in a cool place.  This was a deliberate
	move on the part of the wine producer to create "strong wine",
	which is forbidden to prophets (micah 2:10, I think).  Strong wine
	is not the same as strong drink, as the latter, I believe, is
	distilled spirits.  Again, consult Strongs, as I could be wrong.

        Another thing to consider is that the foaming wine would be
        leavened and might thereby have been considered unsuitable for
        Passover, as would "strong wine" and "strong drink".  In this case,
	"new wine" or "fruit of the vine" (fresh pressed) might have been
	used, or perhaps water mixed with a grape syrup made from the
	previous harvest.

	This pastor also sais that the foaming wine could be stored in
	skins underground, where it could foam and swell to produce
	alcoholic wine.  However, he also said that the people would boil
	the foaming wine into a sweet syrup (like Zarex) and store that in
	skins also.

	I wouldn't want to touch an alcoholic beverage.  I've been up close
	to the damage it does, and don't want any association with it.  Bad
	witness, and who needs it anyway.

	Regards,
		TonyC
		

    TONYC
       what do you think of my comment about gods chosen people for
    thousands of years drinking wine with their meals to this day?
    orthodox jews that is, and the jewish people have the least amount
    of alcoholics of any race, ethnic origin......theres really little
    difference as an example of beer and wine, used moderately.....i don't
    need it, personally, i love spring water and apple juice....as for
    a bad witness, it may look it to the believers and unbelievers of this
    culture because it's such a misuse, alcohol...............so isn't
    food and it's misuse, this country scores big on gluttony....lets
                       ...............thomas

 Remember we are to avoid all appearances of evil.  


   I'll confess to having an occasional beer..perhaps 2 or 3 times a
 year.  However, I know that when I *do* have one, I find my thoughts 
 become less than Godly, and should a neighbor knock on my door looking
 to borrow something, it would not be such a good witness talking about
 the Lord with alcohol on my breath.

 It all becomes a matter of individual conviction.  The Lord will let you
 know when its time to set aside certain things, this being one, if he 
 hasn't already done so.



 Jim

	So Jim, did Jesus throw a breath mint into His mouth after drinking
wine? :-)

    If someone has a conviction that alcohol consumption is wrong, then so
    be it.  If another thinks that its okay, then so be it.  
    
    Let's not get hung up on this folks, its really not that important. 
    Whether or not you consume alcohol will not determine your salvation.
    
    
    
    

    My Pastor told this joke in church a few weeks back.  I thought
    you might all enjoy it here.
    
    A Pastor arrived at his new church.  While meeting all the
    people there, everyone told him how Deacon John makes the
    very best peach brandy.  So when the Pastor went to Deacon
    John's house he asked to taste the brandy.  As you could 
    expect, Deacon John was very unsure whether he should allow
    this.  He didn't want to contribute in any way to the new
    Pastor's sin.  So John finally said that he would give him
    a taste if the Pastor would tell the whole congregation the
    next Sunday that he had tasted it.  So, the next sunday the
    Pastor opened up the service by saying:  I want to thank
    Tom for painting the new classroom, Jane for gathering the
    food for the homeless, and Deacon John for his peaches and
    the spirit in which they came.

Great, Jill!!!  Loved it - can I print it out for my pastor?

							Andrew

    	I primarily refrain from alcohol because at this point in my 
    	life financially, I find the expense of alcoholic beverages
    	to be poor stweardship of the treasures God has given me.

RE: <<< Note 757.21 by FABSIX::T_TEAHAN >>>

	Hi, Thomas.

        In the Old Testament there were 9 different Hebrew words that were
        translated to the English "wine".  In the New Testament, there were
        2 (might've been 3) Greek words translated into the English "wine".
	Today, we automatically assume that this "wine" would be like the
	standard 12% to 17% stuff with which we are all familiar.  However,
	the 9 Hebrew words, for the most part, refer to something very
	different.

        The most commonly used was "foaming."  This is what you get when
        you let fresh pressed grapes sit around in a jug on the pack porch
        in cool weather.  There is a natural fermentation, and the
        resulting alcohol content would be much less than what we see in
        today's industrial strength wine.

	Another word used is "new wine", or fresh pressed grapes.  This
	would have very little alcohol content.  You would have to drink a
	lot of this stuff to get a buzz.  This was the best wine, as it
	tasted best and had fewer undesireable side effects.  This is most
	likely the kind of wine acceptable for use in passover.  The
	foaming stuff would probably have been considered leavened, and
	therefore unfit.

        There are other words referring to wines in various manifestations
        and strengths.  Some of the stronger wines were mixed with water,
        not only to dilute their strength, but because it made the water
        more potable. Likely the alcohol in the wine made it tough on some
        of the more unpleasant pathogens in the water. 

        Please read Micah 2 and see for yourself if a true prophet of God
        would be extolling the virtues of the considerably stronger wines
        that we have commercially available today.

	You may want to read the story of the Recabites in 2nd Samuel 13.
	Also see proverbs 23:30-32, 21:17, and 31:4

	Hey, I agree with Nancy.  Whatever the Holy Spirit tells you.
	Remember, though, that the Holy Spirit's first name is Holy.
	";^)
	
	Regards,
		Tony
	

    tony-
        thanks for the research...i think after all the replies and
    different view points, i'll just drink spring water with all my
    meals.................that way i'll completely know it's okay
    with god...............i'm serious.
    

    Should we change the title of this note to:
    
    Was a beer tasting christian? :-0 :-)
    

RE: <<< Note 757.29 by FABSIX::T_TEAHAN >>>

	Amen.  I pray that I could exhibit such faith as you whenever I am
	challenged.
	
	God bless and keep you, brother.
	

 I sat in a courtroom today with my son who was appearing on a non
 alcohol related charge.  While waiting for his case to be called, I
 watched the proceedings..3 men were charged with alcohol related offenses.
 The most heartbreaking to me was a man who was married and had 3 children,
 and who had what sounded like a good job with a national package carrier..
 He was charged with 2nd offense DWI and another charge, and plead guilty.
 He'll be without a license for 2 years and out about $2000 in fines and
 court fees...

 And today I find that a motorcycle accident my son was involved in last
 night was alcohol related..

 These are the things we don't see in the beer ads we see on our TVs
 day after day..



 Jim

	Bummer about your son, Jim. :-(

	Hope your son in alright, Jim.

 Thanks, Tony..he's in a heap o' trouble...