Conference yukon::christian_v7

Pentecost is June 4th.

Counting begins with Easter as day 1 and ends with Pentecost as day 50.

/john

 Welcome, Annette!





 Jim

    Thanks for your quick response. I needed that answer for Sunday.  We
    will be discussing The Pentacost in our Sunday School adult class on
    this Sunday.  I want to make sure I'm on the right track.
    
    I appreciate the welcome note also.
    
    Thanks

    My Hebrew calendar says it's June 4th and 5th.  The 3rd is Erev
    Shavuot.  A good way to remember is by Counting the Omer.  It's 50 days
    from the Feast of First Fruits to Shavuot.
    
    btw - it's also the anniversary of the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai
    as well as the day Enoch was raptured.
    
    Mike

    This is very interesting. I would like any information that anyone have
    concerning The Pentacost to please share it with me.
    
    It seems that there is more to be learned that what I'm already aware
    of. For instance the day Enoch was raptured.  I never knew that.
    
    Thanks.

 PenEcost ;-)

>Christian observance of Pentecost is based on the date the Christian Church
>observes the anniversary of the Resurrection, not the date of Passover.
    
    Well let them be wrong then.  Thousands of years of Hebrew tradition
    says otherwise.

From the Travels of Egeria, Abbess, and Pilgrim to Jerusalem [late 4th cent.]

On the feast of Pentecost, which falls on Sunday, everything is done exactly
according to custom from the first cockcrow.  The vigil is held in the
Anastasis, so that the bishop may read the passage from the Gospel which
is always read on Sundays, that of the Resurrection of the Lord.  Afterwards,
the customary ritual is carried out in the Anastasis, just as it is throughout
the year.  As soon as it is morning, all the people assemble for the liturgy
in the major church, in the Martyrium, where everything customarily done is
accomplished.  The priests preach and afterwards the bishop.  All the
prescribed rites are accomplished, that is, the sacrifice is offered in the
manner in which it is customarily done on Sunday.  On this one day, however,
the dismissal is moved up in the Martyrium, so that it is given before the
third hour.

As soon as the dismissal has been given in the Martyrium, all the people
without exception, singing hymns, lead the bishop to Sion, but in such a
manner that they are in Sion at precisely the third hour.  when they arrive,
there is read from the Acts of the Apostles that passage in which the Holy
Spirit came down so that all tongues might be heard and all might understand
what was being said.  Afterwards the divine service is celebrated in the
prescribed manner.  Now the priests read there from the Acts of the Apostles
that passage which is read because this is the place on Sion -- the church
now is something elese -- where at an earlier time, after the Passion of the
Lord, the multitude was gathered with the apostles, and where that which we
mentioned above was done.  Afterwards, the divine service is celebrated in
the prescribed manner, and the sacrifice is offered.  Then, just before the
people are dismissed, the archdeacon raises his voice to say: "Today,
immediately after the sixth hour, let us all be ready at the Imbomon on the
Eleona."  All the people then return home, each one to rest.

Immediately after lunch, everyone, insofar as is possible, goes up to the
Mount of Olives, that is to the Eleona, with the result that not a single
Christian remains in the city, for they have all gone.  As soon as they have
climbed the Mount of Olives, the Eleona, that is, they go first of all to the
Imbomon, that is, to the place from which the Lord ascended into heaven.  The
bishop  sits down there, and the priests and all the people, too.  Passages
from Scripture are read, hymns are interspersed and sung, and also antiphons
proper to the day itself and the place are sung.  The prayers which are
interspersed are said in such a manner that they fit both the day and the
place.  Then the passage from the Gospel is read which speaks of the
Ascension of the Lord; then there is the reading from the Acts of the Apostles
which speaks of the Ascension of the Lord into Heaven after the Resurrection.
When this has been done, the catechumens are blessed and then the faithful.
Then at the ningth hour everyone comes down from there and goes, singing hymns,
to the church which is also on the Eleona, that is to say, in that grotto
where the Lord sat teaching the apostles.  By the time they arrive there it
is already past the tenth hour.  Vespters is held there, a prayer is said,
the catechumens and the faithful are blessed.

Then all the people without exception come down from there singing hymns,
everyone together with the bishop singing hymns and antiphons proper to the
day itself.  And in this fashion they make their way slowly and easily to
the Martyrium.  When they reach the city gate, it is already night, and
around two hundred church candles are brought out for the people.  Since
it is quite far from the city gate to the major church or Martyrium, it is
definitely around the second hour of the night when they arrive, because
they move slowly and easily all the way so that the people will not be tired
out from walking.  And when the great doors which are on the market street
side are opened, then all the people, singing hymns, enter the Martyrium
with the bishop.

After they have entered the church, hymns are sung, a prayer is said, and
the catechumens and then the faithful are blessed.  From there, everyone,
singing hymns, then goes to the Anastasis.  When they have arrived at the
Anastasis, in like manner hymns and antiphones are sung, a prayer is said,
and the catechumens and then the faithful are blessed.  And the same thing
is done at the Cross.

Then all the Christian people without exception, singing hymns, lead the
bishop to Sion.  When they get there, appropriate passages from Scripture
are read, Psalms and antiphons as well are sung, and a prayer is said.  The
catechumens are blessed and then the faithful, and the dismissal is given.
Once the dismissal has been given, everyone comes forth to kiss the bishop's
hand.  Everone then returns to his own home around midnight.

And so a great deal of toil is borne on this day, for the vigil at the
Anastasis starts with the first cockcrow, and from then on throughout the
whole day there is no stopping.  Everything that is celebrated is drawn
out to the point that only at midnight, after dismissal has been given at
Sion, does everyone return home.

>    Well let them be wrong then.  Thousands of years of Hebrew tradition
>    says otherwise.

Thousands of years of Hebrew tradition were swept aside when the Holy Spirit
blew through the room where the multitude was assembled.

Now Pentecost is no longer a festival for the Jews, but the commemoration of
the birth of the Christian Church.  It is commemorated fifty days after the
Resurrection.

/john

  I always find it a wonder, the depth and breadth of meaning in the
  Biblical holidays, and how they illustrate God's redemptive plan
  for humanity.  I stand in awe of the beauty, meaning, and purpose
  that the Lord God reveals in the unfolding of history and the Biblical 
  holidays He has ordained to show experientially to us His ultimate purposes.
  Unfortunately, the Christian tradition has lost some of the understanding 
  of the Biblical holidays.  One of the things that I have strongly felt is 
  to share what I have been learning about all of this so other believers 
  can again embrace the whole picture of God's Holy Word and mighty works.  
  It is especially appropriate to talk about this in relationship to Pentecost
  (Greek) or Shavuot as the holiday is known in Hebrew because Shavuot is all 
  about God's revelation to us, and in some ways about completion as well.

  Pentecost means 50.  The Hebrew, Shavuot, means weeks.  You can read about
  the institution of this holiday by God through Moses in Leviticus 23:15-21.
  The Israelites are commanded to count 7 weeks of sabbaths starting from the
  sabbath after Passover.  The day after the count is finished is to be a holy
  day, a convocation to the Lord, a sabbath in which they are to bring the
  temple the first of their grain harvest and offer it to the Lord in what
  was known as a wave offering.  This day, then is the fiftieth day, and 
  that is why its called Penecost in the Greek.

  Now if you notice, in Leviticus, because of this counting between Passover
  and Shavuot, these two holidays are tied to together.  There is also another
  significant event noted in there as well which also involves a wave-offering
  of a sort of pre-harvest.  Going over it more detail, on the 14th of Nisan
  there is Passover - a commemoration of the blood of the Lamb painted on 
  the doorposts protecting those within from the plague of the death of the
  firstborn.  Jesus (in Hebrew, His name is Yeshua which means salvation) is
  our Passover Lamb.  His death happened as the Passover Lambs were being
  sacrificed in the temple.  On the fifteenth, the seven day festival of 
  unleavened bread begins.  This is regarded as a sabbath.  On the day after
  the sabbath, a grain offering was presented as a wave offering in the temple.
  (23:11).  This one very special sheaf of grain was cut from the field 
  just prior to sunset before that sabbath so that it would could be prepared 
  for offering following the sabbath.  I think it is Alfred Eidershiem who 
  notes that probably at the same time this was being done, Yeshua was cut 
  down from the execution stake and laid in the tomb of Joseph of Arimethea.  
  Yeshua was ressurected after the completion of the sabbath so they he could 
  be presented as the risen Lord, THE FIRST FRUITS of the resurrection, on
  the same day this first sheaf of grain was being presented in the temple. 

  Going back again to the original Passover, Jewish tradition teaches that
  on Shavuot God gave the Torah to them through Moses on Mt. Sinai.  What 
  is the Torah - IT IS GOD'S REVEALED WORD TO THEM.  At this time, the 
  Torah was written on tablets of stone, but God promised that He would write 
  His Word on hearts of flesh.  Amazing, is it not, that it is on the Shavuot 
  following Yeshua's death and resurrection, that God fills Yeshua's followers
  with His Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit), essentially further revealing in 
  their hearts, the Living Word who is Yeshua the Messiah!

  Yeshua is the First Fruit of the resurrection, when we yield ourselves to
  Him, we offer the harvest of our heart before the Lord, and in turn, we 
  are pledged to eternal life.  I think its all quite amazing and wonderful!  
  There is more that could be said about this holiday, but we'll never have 
  dinner tonight if I don't go home now, and I missed lunch so I've got to 
  stop, but I will enter an excerpt I have from a Jewish writing about Shavuot
  which may also give you some insight into this wonderful holiday that is a 
  present installment on the joy still to come in the resurrection when things
  will be made even more clear to us.

  Leslie

               -< Shavuot: Everlasting Weeks (R. Riskin, 1991) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
Shabbat Shalom: Shavuot  (Bamidbar) 

by Shlomo Riskin

Efrat, Israel -- In  attempting  to  understand the  deeper  sig-
nificance  of  the festival of Shavuot, let's begin with the name
itself,  most unusual because  Shavuot  --literally  'Weeks'-- is
a  term fundamentally different from the descriptive appellations
of  the  other  Biblical  Festivals  .  Passover  refers to G-d's
"skipping"  over  of  the  Hebrew houses when He smate the  Egyp-
tian  first-born.  Sukkot  to  the booths  in  their  desert  so-
journ, Rosh Hashana the first day of the New Year, Yom Kippur the
Day of forgiveness. Shavuot is in a class by itself, a name which
seems  only  peripherally connected to a festival that celebrates
both the bringing of the First Fruits (Bikkurim) and  the  giving
of the Torah (Matan Torah).

"Weeks" as a  name  reverberates  in  time  suggests  an  interim
period,  and  what we must logically  conclude is  that  what  is
being stressed is  the  festival's   connection   to    Passover.
After   all, seven   weeks  before  Shavuot  a  count  began, en-
joining  us  to number, seven weeks - forty nine  days,  and  re-
plete   with   specific   laws on how to count, what to do if one
forgets,  the proper blessings, and  even  a   kabbalistic   grid
based   on  the   seven Emanations of the Divine in His relation-
ship to  world (S'firot).

Besides the matter of counting each passing day between  Passover
and  Shavuot,  there  is also a  textual  connection  which binds
the  two  festivals.  On the night of the Seder, a  central  pas-
sage  in  the  Haggadah recounts the  beginnings  of  the  Jewish
people  by  quoting  a  passage from the twenty-sixth chapter  of
Deuteronomy: "An Aramean sought to destroy my father; and he went
down  to  Egypt  and  he dwelled there, a handful, few in number.
There he became a nation, great, mighty and numerous."   The  fa-
ther  referred  to  is  Jacob, and it is this experience, Jacob's
first exile from Israel, foreshadowing his  eventual  descent  to
Egypt,  which is as far back as the Haggadah reaches in depicting
the history of Hebrew enslavement and  freedom.

Speculating  why the Haggadah goes back to  this  point  in  time
choosing  to site a passage from Deuteronomy rather then the ini-
tial story  of  Egypt in  the  Book of  Exodus   is  a  homiletic
goldmine,  but  for  us  this  passage  illuminates the Passover-
Shavuot  connection. The  quote about   the  Aramean   destroying
bringing  his  Bikkurim,  the  First Fruits  to  the  temple   in
Jerusalem.   The   Torah commands that "...you must place it in a
basket, and go to the  site  that  G-d will  choose...The  priest
shall   then  take  the basket from your hand and place it before
the altar of G-d your  Lord.  You  shall then  make  the  follow-
ing declaration:... My ancestor was a homeless Aramean.  He  went
to Egypt with a small  number  of  men  and lived  there  as   an
immigrant,  but it was there that he became a great, powerful and
populous nation...'" [Deut. 26:5-10].

Thus the words  recited  upon  bringing  the  First  Fruits  --an
essential part of Shavuot-- is already present in the actual text
of  the  Haggadah.  This means  it is impossible  to  go  through
the Seder without first tasting on one's lips what will unfold 50
days  hence.  Not only  is  Shavuot intimately bound  with  Pass-
over, but linking the two tells me that without Shavuot, Passover
is  incomplete.  And indeed,  Passover  was  only  the  tentative
first steps of Jewish freedom, both from a physical and spiritual
perspective!  Yes, Passover  signals  Jewish  freedom from  Egyp-
tian  servitude,  Israeli  exodus.  But in reality the just-freed
Israelites   must   confront  the   emptiness  of  a  frightening
desert.   The generation that left Egypt with Moses never made it
to the promised land, dying  in  a landscape  which  the  ancient
world  believed imbued with the spirit of pre-civilization, stark
and dangerous. An end  to  slavery  is only  a   beginning;   but
what  lies  ahead for the Israelites, what shall they discover in
this  new  terrain? For many,  the  desert experience  must  have
seemed like "out of the frying pan, into the fire."

And even from a spiritual vantage point, Passover  is   when  G-d
wrought   great miracles for the Jewish people, demonstrating His
love and concern. But even though  we   could   apprehend   G-d's
nearness  as  never before, we still did not know what G-d wanted
from us. How may we serve Him, what are His expectations, and  to
what  religious   aspiration  ought  we  dedicate  our lives? The
responses to these understandable questions have not yet been re-
vealed   to   the   wandering   Hebrew by the advent of Passover.
Enter Shavuot. Its  two  dimensions,  First  Fruits  and   Torah,
speak directly   to   completing   the   redemptive  process  be-
gun  on Passover.

The first fruits, the  Bikkurim,  express  the  physical   in   a
profound  way.  Here  we  are,  in  our own land, farming our own
earth, proudly presenting the crops produced with our  own  sweat
and  toil,  being  brought to our Holy Temple. But in addition to
providing an experience of true home-coming in   a    total   en-
vironment  of material  and physical sanctity,  this day also un-
veils the essence of spirituality: it  is   on  Shavuot  that  we
learn  what  G-d  wants  from  us as a people when He reveals the
Torah  through Moses, a gift that enables us to begin  to  fathom
the  mystery  between  G-d  and His universe, and to traverse the
chasm between heaven and earth.

Passover may be the beginning  of  redemption,  and  Shavuot  may
complete  it, but what we see from the name "Weeks" is how criti-
cal  are  the  days  in  between,  the essense  of   the   Jewish
experience.

    Oh, and perhaps needless to say, I don't agree with John.  I see
    the whole of God's dealing with humanity as a continuum.  God is 
    faithful, steadfast, changeless, and sure.  He had a plan in the
    begining that is unfolding all the way from pre-Genesis to today and
    beyond in a way that fits together and will make sense when we 
    too can finally see the whole thing.  His promises to Adam and 
    Chava (Eve), to Noah, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to Moses &
    the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, are not undone or changed,
    yet we too are heirs according to the promise.  None of it is 
    wiped away, swept away, or done away with.  God is awesome, loving, 
    and eternal.  Layer upon layer build upon each other, adding depth,
    meaning, and understanding.

    'Night all.

    Leslie

While I don't think you are conciously being what St. Paul called a
Judaizer, you do seem to be stuck in the Old Testament paradigms which
the Epistle to the Hebrews tells us have passed away and been replaced
by that which was instituted by Christ.

You are correct that God's promises are timeless and unchanging.  But
the way in which he calls us to respond to those promises do change and
did change radically when Our Lord and Saviour rose from the dead.

/john

    Hi guys,

	whilst essentially being a 'chicken', and not really wishing to
	wade in where I am *really* out of my depth - may I suggest that we
        accept that we have the freedom in Christ/Messiah to observe, or
        not, as we feel led by God, the various traditions - be they less
        than 2000 years old, or greater than 3000 or so?

	I Love each of you as my Brother and my Sister,

							Harry

	John, the Jewish feasts haven't been swept aside, *especially* for
the Jewish people.  They have each been *fulfilled* in Christ.  Today, their
institution under the Old Covenant, and their fulfillment under the New
Covenant, both stand side by side as two witnesses establishing the truth
and power of God's redemptive plan.

	They are beautifully intertwined and related.  They cannot be
separated and forced into separate, antagonistic traditions.  Passover
*became* the Crucifixion, etc.

	The New Covenant does supersede the Old Covenant, within the hearts
of those who put their trust in Jesus (Yeshua) as their personal Christ
(Messiah).  This is not supposed to be a battle between competing traditions,
for heaven's sake!

I am not trying to create antagonism; it is Mark Heiser who challenged
the Christian Church's setting of the date of Pentecost based on the
date of Easter.  It was Mark Heiser who said the Christian Church was wrong.

We are not talking about what's right for Jews.  We are talking about the
Christian celebration of the anniversary of the founding of the Church,
about the Christian celebration of Pentecost.  See .0.

/john

    John,

    there _is_ the possibility (all be it slight in many minds) that for
    1800 years or so, the church *has* got it wrong?

    I don't really think whether 'we' celebrate Jesus of Nazareth's death
    on 'The Day of Preparation [for Passover]' or whether we celebrate it
    on Good (God's) Friday; whether we celebrate His Resurrection on the
    'Festival of First-Fruits' or whether we chose 'Easter Sunday'
    shouldn't *really* matter either. Let's face it, the Orthodox celebrate
    'Easter' at a different time from the 'Roman' tradition - should we
    'rip into them' as well?

    This horse has been thrashed to a bloodied pulp previously, with many
    postings and cross-postings and counter-postings about should the
    church have retained the Jewish Holy-Days, or should it have adopted
    the holy-days of the pagans? The past is, let's face it, the past.

    We *have* the FREEDOM in Christ, our Risen and ascended Lord and
    Saviour, to celebrate these times _as_we_see_fit_as_we_stand_before_God_.

    "I am of Paul!" "I am of Apollos!" "I am of Peter!" "I am of [insert
    name here]!"

    Believe it or not, we are *ALL* "of Christ". We have a common enemy to
    deal with, and that enemy is dangerous, subtle, and ever present.

    I know that my Redeemer lives!

    In Him who has the Name above *all* Names,

						Harry

Western Christian dates for Pentecost for the rest of the millenium:

1995	June 4th
1996	May 26th
1997	May 18th
1998	May 31st
1999	May 23rd
2000	June 11th

Hail thee, festival day! blest day that art hallowed for ever,
Day when the Holy Ghost shone in the world with God's grace.

	Lo, in the likeness of fire, on those who await his appearing,
	He whom the Lord foretold suddenly swiftly descends:

Hail thee, festival day! blest day that art hallowed for ever,
Day when the Holy Ghost shone in the world with God's grace.

	Forth from the Father he comes with seven fold mystical offering,
	Pouring on all human souls infinite riches of God:

Hail thee, festival day! blest day that art hallowed for ever,
Day when the Holy Ghost shone in the world with God's grace.

	Hark! for in myriad tongues Christ's own, his chosen apostles,
	Preach to the ends of the earth Christ and his wonderful works:

Hail thee, festival day! blest day that art hallowed for ever,
Day when the Holy Ghost shone in the world with God's grace.

	Praise to the Spirit of Life, all praise to the fount of our being,
	Light that dost lighten all, life that in all dost abide:

Hail thee, festival day! blest day that art hallowed for ever,
Day when the Holy Ghost shone in the world with God's grace.

	Well, I don't want to thrash a dead horse.  I don't think Mike
got anything "wrong" by contributing info on Jewish roots, or tried to
antagonize anyone, or needed to be "corrected" by Church tradition.

re .21

Nor do I.  But that's not all he did.

/john

>While I don't think you are conciously being what St. Paul called a
>Judaizer, you do seem to be stuck in the Old Testament paradigms which
>the Epistle to the Hebrews tells us have passed away and been replaced
>by that which was instituted by Christ.
    
    Hebrews says only the Old Covenant was replaced.  The feasts and
    holidays prescribed by God and how He says to celebrate them have not
    changed.
    
    The Holy Spirit was given to the church on Pentecost, but that doesn't
    mean we are to forget our roots.  The object lessons within Pentecost,
    divinely inspired by God, are still valid today for teaching ourselves
    as well as our children.
    
    Mike

>I am not trying to create antagonism; it is Mark Heiser who challenged
>the Christian Church's setting of the date of Pentecost based on the
>date of Easter.  It was Mark Heiser who said the Christian Church was wrong.
    
    Who's Mark Heiser?  
    
    *Most* Christian and Catholic churches don't celebrate Pentecost the 
    way God commanded it to be celebrated.  Half of Christianity's roots
    come from Judaism.  Are we to ignore the roots set forth by God Himself
    in His word?  Do you cut out the photos of older generations from your
    family album?
    
    As Leslie stated so well, God has been working on a continuum.  There
    isn't anything in the NT that wasn't first introduced in the OT.  The
    OT is the NT concealed.  The NT is the OT revealed.
    
    Mike

    It pretty much boils down to what you place more faith in: tradition or
    God's Word.  I choose the latter.
    
    Mike

God's word says that the disciples were gathered in one place on the
Pentecost, that the Holy Spirit came, and that as a result of this,
they were able to go into all the world and teach the gospel.

That's what God's word says, and focusing on the gift of the Holy
Spirit to the Church is the most important aspect of the Christian
observance of Pentecost.

Examining what Shavuot meant to the Hebrews is all fine and good, but
the gift of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and recorded in God's
word, overshadows anything prior to Our Lord's Death and Resurrection.

/john

Shavuot - Pentecost (June)
--------------------------
The 50-day counting of the Omer culminates in a celebration - Pentecost, or
Shavuot in Hebrew.  Also called Natan Torah, "Giving of the Torah," it was then
God gave the 10 Commandments (Exodus 19).  Tradition teaches that the Lord
offered the 10 Commandments to 70 nations in Deuteronomy 32:8.  His voice was
divided into those 70 languages amidst thunder, lightning, and a trumpet blast.
The giving of the Torah was surrounded by signs and wonders.

The festival of Shavuot arrived, and the believers gathered together in one
place.  Suddenly there came a sound from the sky like the roar of a violent
wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.  They they saw what
looked like tongues of fire, which separated and came to rest on each of them.
Each was filled with the Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different
languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak (Acts 2:1-4).

Every Jewish male was required to be in Jerusalem for Shavuot.  As a result of
the supernatural intervention of God, this small group of Messianic Jews spoke
in tongues, or languages, of the many pilgrims from out of town.

When the Torah was first given, God inscribed it on tablets of stone.  With the
coming of the Spirit, God wrote his Law on human hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
Signs appeared again on the "living stones," the believers (1 Peter 2:5).  They
heard the "blast," felt the rushing wind, and spoke, as tradition says God did,
in languages of the nations.  The message of Messiah was spread as each Jewish
believer returned home from Shavuot.

Leviticus 23:15-21, Deuteronomy 16:9-10, Acts 2

>Examining what Shavuot meant to the Hebrews is all fine and good, but
>the gift of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and recorded in God's
>word, overshadows anything prior to Our Lord's Death and Resurrection.
    
    Even the OT prophecy of the event?  
    
    Mike

Yes.  An actual event overshadows its prophecy.

/john

    Amazing.  

	Oy vey!  John, you have tremendous, wonderful, and extensive
knowledge and understanding of historical Church teaching and tradition,
and all of us always appreciate your sharing it in here.  Mike also has
some wonderful things to share with us about Jewish roots, history,
traditions, and teaching, which are marvellously related to our Christian
faith, and I want to encourage him to keep on sharing these.

	If anyone has a bone to pick, and it concerns the wider readership,
please be more explicit about what exactly are your objections.  If not,
please let's forget it or take it offline.

	I don't think Mike would ever advocate allowing current Rabbinical
Jewish theological teaching (which, by the way, varies wildly from Rabbi
to Rabbi!) to replace or infiltrate Christian teaching.  So, where's the
beef?

    John, please do not react to what we have said on the basis of
    us fault-finding the Catholic/Episcapalian tradition, which I 
    fear some of our more zealous words may have led you to do.

    My intention in sharing the wonder of how God has been consistently
    faithful in revealing Himself to us is not to nullify the value
    of what happened on the Shavuot after Yeshua's resurrection, but
    rather to share the ever deepening picture of how God interacts
    with us.  You are absolutely right that the event of the Ruach 
    haKodesh coming as a mighty wind and tongues of fire upon Yeshua's
    followers is an outstanding one that deserves a response of awe,
    wonder, joy, praise from us.  But I do not understand how an appreciation
    of the full realm of Shavuot's history and meaning detracts from this 
    event.  It seems to me that it should add to our wonder and awe to
    know that just as God chose Shavuot to reveal His written Torah and
    complete the journey of the Israelites from a slave people to His people,
    so He chose Shavuot to reveal His Word on the disciples hearts and to
    complete their growth from followers to ambassadors and witnesses of
    Yeshua.

    What I did disagree with is your statement that everything in the past 
    was been swept away; I don't see it as swept away, but as added to.  And it
    was while I was writing my first two notes that you put in that note
    about it all being swept away.  My third note was in response to that.
  
    Also, regarding your implication that I am a sub-concious Judaizer, and
    stuck in an "O.T. paradigm":  I hope you said that because you have a 
    different understanding from me as to what it means to be a Judaizer.
    My definition can be found in the topic about Galations, and I hope that
    nothing I have ever written would support the idea that our salvation
    is by anything other than the death and resurrection of the Yeshua,
    Almighty God, Son of the Father!

    However, I do think that the Roman church and those that came out of
    that tradition have lost much in their haste to toss away anything with 
    connection to Judaism because Judaism is the rootstock from which we've 
    come, and for centuries it was the Jewish people alone who carried the 
    treasure of God's revelation for the rest of the world.  I think God has a 
    continuing interest in the Jewish people, and that the rest of the world 
    has much to regret and seek their forgiveness for.  John Cogley, religious
    editor for the N.Y. Times has written that shortly before his death Pope 
    John XXIII wrote this prayer:

        "We are conscious today that many centuries of blindness have
        cloaked our eyes so that we can no longer see the beauty of thy
        chosen people [the Jews] nor recognize in their faces the features
        of our privileged brethren.  We realize the mark of Cain stands 
        upon our foreheads.  Across the centuries our brother Abel [the Jews]
        has lain in blood we drew, or the tears we caused by forgetting
        thy love.  Forgive us for the curse we falsely attached to their
        names as Jews.  Forgive us for crucifying thee a second time in
        their flesh.  For we knew not what we did." 1

Leslie


1 Return of the Remnant, Dr. Michael Schiffman, p. 88
  ---------------------

    Thank you, Leslie!

      Hi,
    
        I just want to suggest that I think the fact that the Holy 
        Spirit was 'given' to the church at Pentecost can suggest
        something that I do not believe is true.
    
        The church already had the Spirit; they were already Christians.
        Its impossible to be a Christian and to lack any presence of
        Jesus Christ in the heart.
    
        Pentecost was a time when they received a substantial amount of
        the Holy Spirit and what prepared the Christians for this reception
        was Christ teaching them for forty days following the cross and
        the Christians praying and repenting (by God's grace of course)
        like they had never done before.  They happened to KNOW Christ hung
        for them in a way they had never known it before and their hearts
        were thus so usable by God and so He could just pour His presence
        in without too much resistance (unbelief).
    
        Again, anyone who is converted already has the Spirit in him. 
        Pentecost was an event wherein the Spirit was in the believers
        in a substantial way.
    
        The Holy Spirit was also in any converted person pre-cross as in
        Psalm 51, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me."
    
    							Tony

    I agree in a sense, Tony.  Filling/Empowerment per Acts 1:8 is
    different from the sealing you get when first saved.
    
    Mike

    re .all
    
    Arguing over a matter of adiaphora, in this case the date and mode of
    celebration of Pentecost, is bad stewardship of one's time and talent.
    
    dp