Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    What's wrong with this picture?  A murder mystery put on by Christians
    to raise money for missionaries?
    
    jeff

 To be honest, I was wondering about that myself.  Perhaps the author could
 shed some more light?





 Jim

    Wet blanket #3... :-)  I don't know either...but it sure seems to be
    contradictory to what I'd identify with a church function.
    
    

    	Oh, really.  Murder mysteries that I've been to have been light
    	enough to take kids to!  Our chrurch put one on for a new
    	years eve party.  Party-attenders were placed at tables with
    	people/couples they didn't know (expect their respective spouses
    	if appropriate.)  This was to encourage parishoners to meet others
    	from the parish that they don't know.  A brief play is presented
    	to help with some character development.  Off-scene one of the
    	characters is murdered.  We get some clues from the play, but
    	not enough to solve the mystery.  The play sets the stage for
    	all the other characters to have a motive.  Once the murder
    	occurs, the play ends, and all the characters are stationed 
    	around the dinner hall, and we are supposed to ask them any
    	questions we can to gather clues.  After about 30  minutes the
    	questioning stops, and we gather back at our assigned tables
    	and work together with the clues we've gathered to solve the
    	mystery.  The table that collects the most key clues wins a
    	prize.  The table that does the worst wins a booby prize.
    
    	It's lots of fun, and you get to meet people from your church
    	that you've never met before.

    Thou shalt not murder... and a murder mystery?
    
    Sorry but this does not compute to me.

Does this mean detective ficton is a no-no?

Time to go home....
I could murder a curry!

Chele

    
    The world says "the end justifies the means".  The Christian should say,
    "only good means justify a good end".
    
    jeff

Hi All,

I do events and I often look for unique experiences for the attendees.

I did a murder mystery a couple of years ago "WHO KILLED THE BOSS?"

It was so much fun. There was nothing done in bad taste. It was always comical
and the fun part was trying to find out who dunnit. It is a fun way to get a
group of people together to break the ice. 

If it is a church group - I would tend to be alot more sensitive in choosing 
the group of actors/actresses. I would make sure that 
the scenes and conversation are as pure as can be. Do your homework on what 
company is hired. 

I had a great experience and everyone had a great night.

Steve

 Well, its certainly not up to me to judge, but I don't believe that a church
 should offer such entertainment.  We like to have activities for fellowship,
 but also to welcome visitors who might not otherwise attend church.  Somehow,
 I can't see us offering to introduce them to the love of Jesus Christ by
 putting on a "murder mystery".  And I'm not so sure that we need to provide
 "entertainment" to obtain funds in support of missions.




Jim

    
    I'm with Jim.  It matters not how fun it is, it is probably
    inappropriate.  And this example lends further creedance to my concern
    about our churches today.
    
    jeff 

      Hi,
    
        The following is an analogy of what I believe will happen to
        the last generation of God's faithful.
    
        An astronomer has an awesome telescope.  At night he looks into
        the heavens and he comes upon something.  He can't tell what it
        is, but he knows something is there.  The image simply looks 'less
        dark' than the rest of the pitch blackness around.  The image
        attracts.
    
        The focusing mechanism on the telescope is kind of weird because
        its not easy getting the image clearly while it is way out. 
        Anyway, most nights, the astronomer keeps trying to focus in on
        the image and the change in quality of the image is taking place,
        but its not real discernable.  The astronomer's zeal in focusing
        in is not that great; it is dependant in part on how well focused
        the image is.
    
        One night the astronomer goes into his 'observatory' to hone in 
        on the image.  Suddenly something happens.  The image really comes
        in.  And it is GLORIOUS!!!  He is so enamored by the image that 
        all He does is continue to focus it in.  And the more He focuses,
        the better the image.  IT IS GLORIOUS!!  
    
        No one has to urge the astronomer to continue obtaining better
        focus.  The sight itself is all the motivation he needs.  His life
        is simply one of a path of continuing in on a better image.
    
        Everything else is strange and dim.  The IMAGE beckons him.  It
        calls him to another life and ANYTHING contrary to that image is
        strange and dim.
    
        The astronomer is me.  The image is Christ hung for me.  The focus 
        mechanism is my faith.  Better focus implies a more mature faith 
        and implies a deeper sight of the crucified one.  The beginning
        stages of the experience relates to lukewarmness for we barely 
        see the cross AS IT REALLY IS.
    
        The image suddenly coming into a much better focus corresponds to
        a future event I hope to partake in.  When Christ is seen much more
        clearly as He is, the picture is so glorious that the process of
        drinking in more and more drafts of the Crucified One is inexorable.
        NO ONE can suppress this experience any more.
    
        Hoover dam has broken loose.  We are drinking in an avalanch of
        good news.
    
        Things strange and dim are anything uncrosslike.  Christ is all in
        all.  All worldly amusements that once seemed completely harmless
        are seen through the perspective of a clearer picture of the cross.
        They are seen as INSANITY.  A world is perishing and nothing makes
        sense, but to convey this same image to others.
    
        And the image will come into sharper and sharper focus for eternity.
        The cross is infinite in depth.  Praise God that it never comes
        into perfect focus.  The study of the cross is an eternal theme
        for our faithful contemplation.
    
        Oh may the day be soon that we see Christ hung for us in such a way
        that to choose sin is simply impossible.  Another sight is far too
        glorious.  Christ is the Chiefest among 10,000 and finally the
        9,999 other things we might be up to are absurd next to Him.
    
        You need not ask me what I think of this murder mystery.
    
        "The path of the just is like a shining light that shines brighter
         and brighter unto the perfect day."
    
    					    		Tony
    
    

    
    Tony,
    
    that is an interesting analogy.  I will go even further with your
    analogy though; it is not the last generation but this generation and
    every generation before and after us.  True Christians grow and mature
    in our earthly lives in a significant fashion.  We see Christ more
    clearly every day thanks to God's sanctification of our lives.  I do
    not believe the last generation will necessarily have any greater
    insight or proximity to Christ than we have or those who have gone
    before us have had.  It might even be argued that those Christians
    further from Christ's death and ressurection will see even more dimly
    due to the influence of the culture.  But then maybe not.
    
    jeff  

    	Jeff --
    
    	It's not like the murder mystery is being acted out from the
    	pulpit!  It's just entertainment after all.  And guess what?
    	The murdered character even appears at the curtain call --
    	ALIVE!

      <<< Note 716.14 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>
    
>            -< What next?  Ban Nancy Drew from the parish library? >-
    
    	After thinking about this, I suppose someone could challenge me
    	with an example to the other extreme.  Would it be appropriate
    	to have a mystery dinner theatre like the one I described back
    	there whereby the audience is asked to determine who the father
    	of the prostitute's baby really is...

    
    

    
    Sorry Joe.  I don't believe the end justifies the means. I don't
    believe something as serious as the evil of murder should be
    acted out by Christians.  Andrew gave some good reasons for this in an
    earlier note.  I understand the appeal but I think it unwise, however
    innocuous it may seem to you and others.
    
    jeff

    	I realize that, Jeff.  After thinking about this more, and as
    	indicated in my reply .15, I may actually be coming around to
    	seeing this as you do.

    Interesting.. wanna laugh I read Joe's note on first glance as saying
    
    Ban Ben, Nancy 'rew from ?????  
    
    Ben Price, me and Andrew from whatever! :-) :-)

Tony,  loved .12 .  Thanks.  Only I too would see it as the experience of
every generation of believer, all culminating with seeing Him face to face 
(1 John 3:2)...

					thanks again...
							Andrew

p.s. - Nancy - I fell into something of the name trap too... ;-)

    I was thinking in the shower this morning...that if its wrong for a
    church [or questionable] to host a murder mystery night, how much less
    wrong is it for a Christian to be captivated by murder by movies?
    
    Especially the bloody graphic ones of today.

    
    good question, Nancy.
    
    jeff

    	Maybe it's a matter of impressions, Nancy.  Being captivated
    	by a gory movie is a personal issue.  If a church were to
    	sponsor the showing of that movie, it would give the impression
    	of the church condoning the contents.  And I think that is really
    	the issue of this topic and a church hosting a murder-mystery
    	theater production.  Does it say that the church condones a
    	lighthearted treatment of murder?

    .23
    
    I disagree with you Joe... I believe that as Christians we are to keep
    our minds pure.. per the verses in rew's note previously.
    
    I was VERY strict and disciplined about this in my not to distant past,
    but have found myself over the last few months relaxing my own
    convictions.. this concerns me for when the Lord comes I don't want to
    be engaging my time in absorbing worldly values.
    
    Nancy

	Better stop watching Murder She Wrote!!!!  :-)

Hi Joe,

The visual images of a movie can make a big impression on the mind.
Even if it's a poorly acted movie, unconvincing and weak, a shock visual 
can be a significant input which is very difficult to erase, which can 
recur from time to time, and bring unsuitable associations.  It is an 
opening for fear (eg portraying a frightening experience - an unpleasant 
encounter in the dark, a mock-up of a violent scene, maybe with a body 
injured, spilling blood).

Some of these things may happen in real life, when we need to deal with
them and let the LORD purge them out and heal us.  But to choose to allow
them there as an 'amusement' is dangerous.  It can give the enemy rights he
should not have. 

I still think Philippians 4:8 is relevant here.

It hits an interesting problem with the portrayal of Bilblical events.  I'm
not in favour of these myself for various reasons, but there's one I'm
thinking of in particular, which is the third of a trilogy on the
tribulation.  A church I know saw the first one, and assumed that the third
would be similar in impact.  Apparently it was gruesome, and kids were
having to leave, because it interfered with their digestive capabilities. 
There are things we know happen - have happened, will happen - which we
have no need to be graphically precise about.  The measured language and
expression of the Bible is totally adequate. 

								Andrew 

    	Understand, please, that I'm no longer trying to support any
    	one position in this discussion.  I am sufficiently confused
    	about my own position here that I don't want to be forced into
    	defending this or that.  More than anything I'm just thinking
    	out loud at this point, and I really encourage more input for
    	digestion.  Originally I was 100% in support of murder mysteries,
    	seeing them as harmless fun, and I related with fondness an
    	experience I had with one our church sponsored.  But somewhere
    	around entries .14 and .15 I realized some things that I still
    	haven't worked through.  I would still like to think these are
    	benign events, but cannot do that with the same fervor I did
    	just a few days ago.

    I was at a (christian) friend's home last night.  This friend has a
    19-year old girl who recently accepted Christ (December?) living
    in her household.  This girl had it rough growing up (abuse,
    alcohol/drugs), as well as some psychological problems
    (manic-depressive, I think).  We were seated in the kitchen talking; 
    I went into the living room to talk to the 19-year old.  She was 
    watching one of the 'Nightmare on Elm Street' movies.  I came into 
    the kitchen and said to my friend, "are you aware that <n> is watching 
    a horror movie?"  She said no.  I said "This really disturbs me, how
    does this sit with you." She said she would address it with her - I was 
    there ALL evening (7pm - midnight), and she did not speak with <n>
    then, so I presume she continued to watch the rest of the movie.
    
    Firstly, I can't imagine the impact this movie was having on <n>; 
    especially given her personal history.  (This particular series of
    horror movie deals with an evil man killing children - maybe they all
    do for that matter, I don't know.)  I realize the she probably
    grew up watching this stuff and so is therefore somewhat desensitized
    to it.  HOWEVER, it would seem to me, no matter how 'new' you are in
    your faith in Jesus Christ, that the Holy Spirit would quicken you to
    know that 'somethings-not-right-with-this-picture.'
    
    Secondly, I was concerned with the basic fact of that garbage coming
    into my friend's home AT ALL, whether someone sat there and watched it
    or not.  
    
    I know they (my friends) are dealing with alot of stuff with this girl
    right now, and I'm not judging any of them, I'm just concerned, both
    for <n> and my friends, for what they are allowing into their spirits, 
    that the Lord would show them the seriousness of this.
    
    Karen      

    What would you (not anyone in particular) say if we had a benefit
    concert with a popular heavy metal rock group blasting out lyrics about
    the senselessness of life and suicide or how about a famous rap group
    chanting about murdering this or that group?  I think most, if not all
    of us, would shout that suggestion down.
    
    It sounds benign, as Joe put it, but I think ultimately it can have an
    impact on our walk and witness.  The Word says that its not what a man
    eats that defiles him but what comes out of his mouth.  It also says
    that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  So whatever
    is most prominent in your heart will direct and control your walk and
    conversation.  That is determined by what you feed your spirit.  If its
    God's Word then God's character will flow from you.  If its murder or
    lust or greed or whatever then that's what will flow out of you. 
    Bitter and sweet water can not flow from the same fountain.  God's
    Spirit and God's Word is sweetness but the things of this world that
    are contrary to His Word and His Spirit are bitterness.
    
    Kent
    

The Murder Mystery Dinner Party mentioned in events is not sponsored by any church.  The group involved is
doing it in order raise money that they can give towards mission work.  The idea is just to get to know
each other and work together to solve a mystery.  I guess unfortunately when one thinks of mysteries,
murder is usually the theme.  Of course, someone did have a point in such that there goes Murder She Wrote
and shows similar to that.  All the actors/actresses involved are Christians, so there won't be the impure
connotations I have seen with many mystery parties.  If too many people are offended by such an event, I
can delete the entry.


				-Alice Uyeno 

 Why must there be entertainment involved in order to support missionaries,
 who likely don't have a great deal of entertainment out in the field?  Our
 church manages to raise ~$85000/year for missions with a Faith Promise
 program.




 Jim

    	re .29
    
    	On being benign.
    
    	I wouldn't consider a suicide-rock group as being particularly
    	benign.  But some might, which begs the question about where 
    	we should draw the line.  I originally saw murder mysteries
    	as being benign.  But I realize that even something as mild as
    	that would not be sold by Feature Films for Families (I think
    	there is a topic on them in here somewhere).  Likewise, Focus
    	on the Family's "Adventures on Odyssey" wouldn't partake of
    	something like that.  Obviously these groups have drawn a
    	different line from what I would have drawn.
    
    	Someone back there spoke of violent films leaving lasting
    	impressions on us that we probably don't see.  I wanted to
    	argue that there is a difference between graphic violence in
    	movies and a theatrical murdery mystery.  That is probably
    	true, but it is only a matter of degrees, the more I think 
    	about it.  The same can be said of graphic sex vs sexual
    	innuendo on TV and in advertisements.  The clothing ads we
    	see on TV may very well seem "benign", but they really bathe
    	us in a constant low-suggestion lust in a way.  Cosmetics
    	and toiletries ads (shaving creams, soaps, fragrances, etc.)
    	also do.  Car ads wash us in envy.  Investment ads foment
    	personal dissatisfaction which can lead to greed.  On what side
    	of "the line" do these fall?
    
    	So is an Ellery Queen novel on the wrong side of the line?
    	Angela Lansbury?  Alfred Hitchcock?  If so, do we also discard
    	Nancy Drew?  The Hardy Boys?  Alfred Hitchcock's 'The Three
    	Investigators'?
    
    	Is it all-or-nothing?  Or do we draw lines?

      re: .31
      
      Good point Jim!
    
      I believe the giving that God most honors is that giving that
      flows from a nonegocentric motivation...not a "Whats in it for
      me motivation."
    
      No need for raffles, entertainment, just give to help those in
      need!
    
    						Tony

    Joe,
    
    I was using those examples to draw specifically the conclusion you came
    to.  Where do we draw the line?  I don't think that the line should be
    draw at the church doors either.  It's okay as long as we don't do it
    in church.  First, that identifies church as something we attend rather
    than something we are.  It compartmentalizes life into what goes on at
    church versus what goes on in the world.  I think most people have a
    clear concept of sacred and secular and some of the offence I'm hearing
    in here is that we don't want to have a secular event (a play may be
    secular such as a Passion Play) in a sacred setting.  Its not so much a
    matter of appropriateness so much as it is offending the sanctified
    spirit.  Our lives are to be holy (wholly) consecrated to God and 
    therefore if it's offensive in the church building then I think it should 
    also be offensive in my living room.
    
    Kent
    

    	Even more to think about!
    
    	Thanks, Kent.

        RE: last few

        Excellent replies!  Most Menonite and all Remnant fellowships
        eschew TV and drama.  None of them seem to be missing anything or
        hurt by it.  In fact, their family lives are exemplary, to say the
	least.

	Regards,
		TonyC

There doesn't have to be entertainment involved to raise money for missions.  
This is just an individual's effort to raise more money so they can put more 
money in for the effort.  Remember this is just a group of
individuals, not some organized group.

Where any individual draws the line depends on their personal sensitivity 
in this area.  I'd take Romans 14 as being very applicable.  For someone 
who has been used to, say murder mysteries, it seems a very legalistic 
restriction to say they mustn't read them any more.  But if they reach a 
time when the LORD convicts them about a certain case, or parallel 
situation, and they begin to perceive it as grieving their spirit - or the
Holy Spirit within their hearts - then that is the time to be ready to
remove it.  Until then, it is a balance of conscience between those who see
either perspective, for neither to impose their view to the point of
hurting the other. 

That's for 'debatable' issues.  We have to live with our own consciences in 
this area.  The whole issue merges very smoothly from things that most 
would accept, into aspects which most would consider unacceptable.  For 
each of us, it is a balance according to how God speaks to our own
consciences.  But it is an especially delicate balance for a pastor to 
apply in church activities, where the LORD must be givein preeminence.

							Andrew

      Good point Andrew!!
    
      I would say that Rahab's experience with the Lord might 
      have been injured had someone accused her of lying!!
      No one is ready to see all of their sin and hence it is
      a sacred thing to NOT expose sin sometimes.
    
      Praise God that He has not shown me all of my sin.
    
    						Tony

    
    I'm just trying to get a hanlde on this topic.  So would playing the
    game of Clue at a church-sponsored game night be wrong?
    
    Jill

    	So by that answer, Andrew, should I conclude that a murder mystery
    	(which is really little different from the CLUE board game except
    	the characters are live actors) would be OK for those who attend 
    	and are not offended by it?

Hey, Joe, don't take my word...!

I'm saying that it depends on the individual's consciences.

And that they should be sensitive to the Spirit.

If their witness is that this is ok (whatever 'Clue' is), then I am not
overriding their conscience with law.  However, if someone is aware of a
check in the spirit on this, they should all be ready to go along with that
one.  Also, if their pastor (or an elder - spiritual leader) feels that
their lack of conscience on this particular item is due to a deficiency in
teaching, he can instruct them immediately, so that they will be protected
against a trap. 


							Andrew

p.s.

My perception of the murder mystery is that the murder situation and 
atmosphere is more mind-invasive than a board game.  The board game is 
merely to identify the missing cards, whereas the mystery centres on
precise personalities and circumstances.  It is likely that people would
feel uncomfortable with the latter who do not perceive the former as 
associated with sin.  So it might just be a matter of progression.

								Andrew

    
    Yes - I believe it's probably a similar game to what you are talking
    about.  There are different characters such as Colonel Mustard and
    Miss Scarlett, rooms of the house and weapons.  My brother and I used
    to play this as kids all the time.  There was no focus on the murder,
    just on our sleuthing skills.  I've never done a murder mystery but I
    gather that you're meeting the personalities and then a murder occurs
    offstage so it's not focused on either and then it's still just a
    matter of focusing in on sleuthing skills.  I think we're talking a
    few degrees of difference, but not a wide margin.
    
    A most interesting reply to Joe, Andrew.  So you're saying that
    everyone should be ready to pack it in for one persons sensitivity
    rather than waiting on the Spirit to convict them.  I think that's
    dangerous.  I think that's how legalism starts.  You have people
    delivering edicts and everyone cowering to them whether they are really
    from God or not.  What happened to test the spirits?
    
    Jill

    
    Actually my last note brought a thought to mind.  Shouldn't we be
    sensitive to the Lord's leading in all our brothers and sisters.  God
    is gracious and doesn't show us everything we need to work on at once. 
    If we're trying to push what God has developed as a sensitivity for us,
    could we be interfering in God's timing for that person?  Could we
    acutally harm them by pushing on them.  Also, is there ever a situation
    where God may convict one person of someone that is sin because of his
    circumstances, but not for someone else.  For instance, an alcoholic. 
    God may convict him that drinking is a sin.  Whereas someone may feel
    that there is nothing wrong with an occasional drink.  And then there
    is someone like me who has a sensitivity to this because of friends who
    are recovered alcoholics saved by grace, so even an occasional drink
    doesn't appeal to me.
    
    Jill

    "All things are permitted, but not everything is helpful" Reb. Shaul

>don't actually know 
>anything seriously wrong with drinking coke.  I'm still looking ;-)

	How about the causes they support?  Planned Barrenhood, for one.
	Or is that Banned Parenthood?
	I guess it depends on if it's the US or the UN version.

	Not suggesting a boycott.  Just sensitivity to where the money God
	gives you goes.  ;-)

	Regards,
		TonyC
		

    Re: Note 716.51 by WRKSYS::CAMUSO
    
>	How about the causes they support?  
    
    Ooh ooh... can you list the causes they support?  I would like to
    inform some people in my youth group of this list.
    
    James