Conference yukon::christian_v7

                                ON FASTING
                                ----------
             Holy Transfiguration Russian Orthodox Monastery

The Holy Apostle commands us saying, "Let us put on the armor of light.
Let us walk becomingly as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not
in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.  But put ye on the
Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts
thereof."  From the time of the Apostles, Prophets and Fathers till our own
day, it is evident from the life of the Church that fasting is part of our
"armor of light"; it is a mighty weapon against the enemy given into our
hands by the Saviour Himself, Who is a type and example for us in all things
and Who fasted in the flesh in order to teach us to fast.  To those weak and
ill, it is a medicine and antidote -- a bath in which to be washed and
cleansed.  Armored with holy fasting, St. Elias the Tishbite withstood Ahab
and his army singlehandedly and called down fire from the heavens.  By
fasting, St. Moses, the seer of God and the elders of Israel prepared to
ascend the mountain in the desert and behold the Glory of God.  By fasting
the Three Children were shown forth to be fairer than the other children
in Babylon in the house of the king, and Daniel was shown forth to be a
shepherd of lions.

Fasting, therefore, should always be understood as a thing most necessary
in our battle with the evil one.  Only a man who has lost his mind would put
down his weapons, strip himself naked of his armor, and then jump into the
line of fire to do battle with the enemy.  Such a one would be committing
suicide.  A man who calls himself a Christian and does not fast, is such a
man.  In the final analysis he who does not fast does not believe in God,
for he does not really believe in the existence of the enemy and the great
victory gifted to us over him by our Saviour.  He who does not fast does not
believe in Him Who said to the enemy, "Man shall not live by bread alone."
This is why Apostolic and Patristic canons proclaim that all who do not keep
the fasts have fallen away from the Faith (i.e. have become excommunicated),
and our Holy Father St. Seraphim of Sarov instructs us not even to speak
with such persons.

St. Abba Isaac the Syrian says, "The Saviour began the work of our salvation
with fasting.  In the same way, all those who follow in the footsteps of the
Saviour build on this foundation the beginning of their endeavour, since
fasting is a weapon established by God.  Who will escape blame if he neglects
this?  If the Lawgiver Himself fasts, how can any of those who have to obey
the law be exempt from fasting?  This is why the human race knew no victory
before fasting, and the devil was never defeated by our nature as it is:
but this weapon has indeed deprived the devil of strength from the outset.
Our Lord was the Leader and the first exmaple of this victory, in order to
place the first crown of victory on the head of our nature.  As soon as the
devil sees some one possessed of this weapon, fear straightway falls on
this adversary and tormentor of ours, who remembers and thinks of his defeat
by the Saviour in the wilderness; his strength is at once destroyed and the
sight of the weapon given us by our Supreme Leader burns him up.  A man
armed with the weapon of fasting is always afire with zeal.  He who remains
therein, keeps his mind steadfast and ready to meet and repel all violent
passions."

Those who do not fast -- especially those of the clergy -- teach that fasting
consists in not thinking and doing evil and quote from our Saviour, the
Apostles, and Fathers to support their views.  They usually forget that our
Saviour, the Apostles, and Fathers all fasted the physical fast as well as
the spiritual fast.  When man partakes of the Glory of God, he does not
partake of it in the spirit only, but physically also -- in a complete sense.
When one praises God, he does not praise Him only in the Spirit, but with
physical voice also in chant and prayer.  When one worships God, he does not
worship him noetically only but physically also -- the body participating by
standing in prayer, by making prostrations and using the fingers and hand to
seal itself with the sign of the Cross.  When one communicates God, he does
not communicate in spirit only but eats the Very Body and drinks the Very
Blood of the Lord unto healing of soul and body.  Thus one praises God and
is united with God not in part, but completely as one whole -- soul and body.
When one labors in virtue, one labors not only noetically but physically
also, even unto blood, in order not to deny our Saviour.  Our Holy Martyrs
did not witness just by words and thought, resisting evil in their hearts
and minds, but gave their bodies up to torments and their heads to be cut
off, that they might remain with our Saviour.  Thus, since we are not just
spirits, but "wear flesh and live in the world," we cannot possibly fast
spiritually only and not fast physically also.  There is a unity and
interaction between the body and the soul.  They cannot be separated while
we are still in the body.

In the "Ladder of Divine Ascent", St. John Climacus writes "Satiety of food
is the father of fornication; an empty stomach is the mother of purity."
He who always keeps his stomach full and he who fasts know the strength of
this saying.

I just had a funny idea.  How about a Christian who starts a "Fast Food"
restaurant where no food is served but the fasting can come to meet
and give the money they would have spent on a meal for a ministry?

I again encourage you to consider possibly denying yourself of something
for a time (not permanent) for the sake of learning to resist other 
temptations.

Mark

	Mark,

	I didn't want to boast, so I didn't put this in earlier,
	but I've been going without something for the better part
	of a year.

	SLEEP !!!

	(I especially resist the temptation while driving, when it's
	the strongest!)

If you do this to the glory of God and with the intent to deny self, as
opposed to having to get up to tend to your kiddo, then hip hip hurray, 
Karen.    :-)

On a more serious note, I am not asking people to disclose their fast
as a boasting, but as encouragement to those who may need encouragement.

I know my church once had a stronger emphasis on fasting than it seems
to these days - maybe its me.  Do we see a need for it?  Why or why not?
Yes, this has been discussed before, but not much.  What do we want to
be in Christ?  How does fasting affect who we are in Christ?  How does
not fasting affect who we are in Christ?  

Why did Jesus fast?

I started asking these questions a few years ago.  I'm different now,
and I do not attribute it all to fasting, but I can say that fasting
*has* affected who I am in Christ.  Lent is 4 weeks away.  And if you 
think that Lent is legalistic, fine; but consider fasting as the Lord
would ask you.  (And remember, fast doesn't always mean food.)

Mark

>>On a more serious note, I am not asking people to disclose their fast
>>as a boasting, but as encouragement to those who may need encouragement.

	I knew that!

>>If you do this to the glory of God and with the intent to deny self, as
>>opposed to having to get up to tend to your kiddo, then hip hip hurray, 
>>Karen.    :-)

	Actually, I do it for the crowns I shall receive in Heaven ;-)
	
	(and as I told Jamie last week, that's the precise reason I
	married him ;-) )

	I do have my fiesty moments!

>I know my church once had a stronger emphasis on fasting than it seems
>to these days - maybe its me.  Do we see a need for it?  Why or why not?
           
           Our church used to have a corporate 3-day fast once a quarter
           for a couple years (one 7-day thrown in there, too), then
           nothing.  Now we've started again twice a year.  I don't look
           forward to them, but I do "get into them", once they've
           started.
           
>Yes, this has been discussed before, but not much.  What do we want to
>be in Christ?  How does fasting affect who we are in Christ?  How does
>not fasting affect who we are in Christ?  
>Why did Jesus fast?

           I think it's a disciplining thing, a time when prayer seems
           more meaningful, a time of clearing the mind, as well as
           something physically good for us.
           
>(And remember, fast doesn't always mean food.)

           I think of it as abstaining from food/drink... isn't that what
           the word fast means?

           Steve

Re: Steve Scardino

>>(And remember, fast doesn't always mean food.)
>
>           I think of it as abstaining from food/drink... isn't that what
>           the word fast means?

Hmmm....  actually you may be right and I may be mistaken.  I was applying
it more broadly to things, such as denying yourself something else.  There
is a place in the Bible where a husband and wife can abstain from sexual
relations (but only for a short time, according to Scripture).  Ain't food,
but isn't it a fast?  Certainly, fast is most often used in reference to
abstinence from food or drink.

Tell me about your three-day fasts.  What are the particulars?  No food at
all for the whole three days?  Or is this a daylight endeavor?  What
about liquids and what kinds?

Mark

>I don't look forward to them, but I do "get into them", once they've
>started.

You know, this is actually an encouragement.  Me, too.  I've felt guilty
about not looking forward to denying myself what I would want.  Joy and I
went out to lunch today (very nice, thank you).  She pointed out that
eating becomes recreational and a self-reward rather than a sustaining
substance.  It's a pleasure we don't deny ourselves usually, if ever.  I 
think a balance can be acheived (I'll bet Jesus *enjoyed*  eating as much 
as anyone).  I want to examine my attitude towards food as an entity 
provided to sustain life, and the benefits of enjoying (savoring) the good 
things without having too much of a good thing that stunts my spiritual growth.
STUNT MY SPIRITUAL GROWTH!?  I think so.  Jesus' example was to show us
that the self must be brought under the spirit's submission.  John said, 
He must increase; I must decrease.  The greatest shall be servant of all.
Selflessness; the antithesis of self, self-centered thinking.

(Now for a mind bender: isn;t denial of self the ultimate power trip of
controlling self?  Yet, self-control is actually listed as the fruit of 
the spirit.  And by the way, we know that fruit must be used when it is 
ripe or we lose it until the tree bears more fruit.  Don't waste fruit
of the Spirit and let is spoil.)

MM

    Although no one has gone the whole way on this, I see some danger
    in a leaning towards some gnostic type thinking - ie.  enjoying
    life and the wonders of creation is bad, self-denial is good.  I
    don't think anybody means to be saying that, but did think it merited
    mentioning.

    Fasting always has a purpose other than self-denial.  It should be
    connected with repentance and petitioning before God.  Its purpose
    is to show we're aware that we do not live by "bread alone", but 
    depend on God for our existence.

    Yet God made creation, and placed us in it to tend it, and enjoy its
    fruits within the constraints of moral and ethical limits.  Jesus 
    enjoyed life with gusto, and eating was often a social occasion for 
    him as it is for us.

    Leslie

Mark, I wrote my reply before I read *all* of your last note, I discovered
you mention some of the same things when I went back ready it more thoroughly.

Leslie

I'm all for balance, Leslie, and don't mind people helping us find it 
when it is necessary.

>[Fasting] "should be connected with repentance and petitioning before God."
>
>Jesus enjoyed life with gusto, and eating was often a social occasion for 
>him as it is for us.

You are right to point both of these out - they are NOT mutually exclusive
in the whole life of a Christian, but they are mutually exclusive events
in a Christian's life.  There is a time for feasting and a time for fasting - 
and Jesus said that the children of the bridegroom don't fast while he's 
around, but when he's gone from them, then they will fast (Matt 9:15, 
paraphrase).

I'm not talking about whipping the flesh, as some cultures do, to purify 
themself.  However, I am talking about discipline and purification in addition 
to repentance (Israel, King David), and Petition (King David, Jesus).  
I'm not talking about never having any fun!  Anyone who knows me knows 
that I'm serious about my fun and feasting!  But I think we, as Christians, 
have lost the balance between feasting and fasting these days.

My Pastor fasted a day last week.  He hadn't done so in a while and
afterward ate more than he usually does.  *I did the same thing* for 
a while.  (a) Fasting doesn't have to start all at once.  Start with one
meal a week.  One meal.  You (generic, not Leslie) probably have skipped
a meal before.  Skip it intentionally this time saying "with God's help
I won't eat anything until we've said the 'amen' at the next meal's prayer."
(b) fasting doesn't have to be regular - though it helps.  Fasting should
be done "unto the Lord."  (for the purpose of pleasing God; a sacrifice you
can give at any time no matter how rich or poor you are).

I am the last one to tell you that the byproducts of fasting are a good reason
to fast.  I wanted to be sure that I was doing it unto the Lord and not for
myself.  And you know, I wasn't sure some days that there was any meaning at
all to it - I didn't *feel* that it pleased anyone - yet, I gave that boring
discipline over to God anyway.  Fasting does have byproducts - good ones - 
but just as you don't give to get, you don't fast to get something either.
And just as the more you give, the more you get, when you fast, some 
spiritual benefit will come; perhaps not at once, like those first few
days of jogging or the first 20 situps.

Repentance, petition, purification, and discipline can all be wrapped together
in this one act.

Mark

World Vision is sponsoring a 30-hour fast (in America; in Europe I think it
is 40-hours; we're soft).  The teenagers in my other church are participating
as is my own two older daughters.  It begins on the 24th of February and
continues until 7pm on Saturday the 25th.

Miranda is excited about this and has got the sponsorship of her school's
(something) organization for $300 already.  World Vision helps to feed
starving people around the globe.

My wife and I had some concerns about 30 hours, but Miranda is spunky
and determined.  Apart from the concerns of parents, we are proud that 
she wants to do her part!  And this was NOT from any prodding
from our arena - this came out of the blue from church and World Vision.
I have encouraged Miranda to try and skip a meal once or twice before
then (starting slowly, again).

Mark

    Is it a sin to make a commitment to God to fast for a period of time
    (say, one day) and to fail at that commitment?
    
    Karen

    re: last
    
    Thanks, Andrew, for your response.  I felt that, obviously this is a
    serious matter before the Lord and should not be taken lightly, but
    didn't know if it could be defined as 'sin', which according to
    Deuteronomy 23:21-23 [which you posted] it is.  
    
    Up till the present, I have refrained from fasting because of doubts
    around the manner in which it should be done, and doubts that I could
    fast for a whole day.  In light of what you and Mark have said about
    taking it slowly (i.e., denying oneself a certain food or drink, one
    meal) I feel more confident that I could pledge a certain thing and
    follow through.
    
    Thanks for your insight and explanation.
    
    Karen

>Fasting can be as much or as little as the individual feels able to commit. 
>I have known someone go without a cup of coffee, as a fast.  That is 
>acceptable to the LORD.  Whatever is on your heart, do it with thankgiving.

Amen, Andrew.  I committed two meals on a specific day of most weeks and
release myself from those at time (which I consider "feast" days - like
when company will be around and holidays).

>    In light of what you and Mark have said about
>    taking it slowly (i.e., denying oneself a certain food or drink, one
>    meal) I feel more confident that I could pledge a certain thing and
>    follow through.

Double Amen, Karen.  

Whatever it is, it is a love offering to the Lord - a sweet fragrance to Him!
It's like your kid picking you some flowers.  Dandelions can mean as much as 
a dozen florally arragned roses, when it comes from your child who you know
picked them JUST FOR YOU JUST TO PLEASE YOU!  

MM

      Hi,
    
        I don't knwo that I've ever fasted an entire day, but its sounds
        like a good thing if (as you said Mark), the right motive is
        there.
    
        One thing I try to do is to eat simply and only at certain times.
        Only so that my mind is as clear as possible so that I can better
        discern the word.
    
        Just for a practical example, eating a fair amount of food late at
        night can make morning devotional less bountiful.  At least for me.

    Just a reminder....

From a sermon of Peter Chrysologus, Bishop of Ravenna [450]

There are three things by which faith stands firm, devotion remains
constant, and virtue endures.  They are prayer, fasting, and mercy.
Prayer knocks at the door, fasting obtains, mercy receives.  Prayer,
mercy, and fasting: these three are one, and they give life to each
other.

Fasting is the soul of prayer; mercy is the lifeblood of fasting.
Let no one try to separate them; they cannot be separated.  If you
have only one of them or not all together, you have nothing.  So
if you pray, fast; if you fast, show mercy; if you want your petition
to be heard, hear the petition of others.  If you do not close your
ear to others, you open God's ear to yourself.

When you fast, see the fasting of others.  If you want God to know
that you are hungry, know that another is hungry.  If you hope for
mercy, show mercy.  If you look for kindness, show kindness.  If you
want to receive, give.  If you ask for yourself what you deny to
others, your asking is a mockery.

Let this be the pattern for all when they practice mercy: show mercy
to others in the same way, with the same generosity, with the same
promptness, as you want others to show mercy to you.

Therefore, let prayer, mercy, and fasting be one single plea to God
on our behalf, one speech in our defence, a threefold united prayer
in our favour.

Let us use fasting to make up for what we have lost by despising
others.  Let us offer our souls in sacrifice by means of fasting.
There is nothing more pleasing that we can offer to God, as the
psalmist said in prophecy:  "A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit;
God does not despise a bruised and humbled heart."

Offer your soul to God, make him an oblation of your fasting, so
that your soul may be a pure offering, a holy sacrifice, a living
victim, remaining your own and at the same time made over to God.
Whoever fails to give this to God will not be excused, for if you
are to give him yourself you are never without the means of giving.

To make these acceptable, mercy must be added.  Fasting bears no
fruit unless it is watered by mercy.  Fasting dries up when mercy
dries up.  Mercy is to fasting as rain is to the earth.  However
much you may cultivate your heart, clear the soil of your nature,
root out vices, sow virtues, if you do not release the springs of
mercy, your fasting will bear no fruit.

When you fast, if your mercy is thin your harvest will be thin; when
you fast, what you pour out in mercy overflows into your barn.
Therefore, do not lose by saving, but gather in scattering.  Give to
the poor, and you give to yourself.  You will not be allowed to keep
what you have refused to give to others.

Words of Life, John.  Thank you.

My eldest daughter has volunteered to consider some sort of Lenten fast.
Her only influence is our example.  We have encouraged her to do only
what she feels led to do.

Mark

I had an e-mail conversation with a friend in Kansas.  I'd like to share 
it here perhaps to someone's benefit.  It's stream of conscious writing and
that often means typos and the like.  Forgive me.

---------------

To be sure, Ed, we are not bound by any law and to observe Lent for
legalistic purposes would be empty.  However, in my freedom I have 
discovered also the power of yielding to discpline.  (Hey, how about
the triple paradox of that phrase "power of yielding to discipline"?)

I began to ease discipline in.  Weight lifters don't start with 
300 lbs.  Especailly when you're as soft as I am.  Why?  To be 
a legalist?  Not at all!  In fact, I came into it so slowly as to 
ensure that I wasn't being legalistic about it.

I hadn't observed Lent last year (and I think the year before).
I think I did the Coke fast three years ago.  (I found out from my Catholic
friends that the fast was suspended on Sundays but we were most of the
way through Lent.  I thought, "what kind of fast is that!?" and didn't
have Coca Cola until Easter Sunday.)

I have begun to see a few things:  consider my thought pattern this morning:

I thought of someone who was complaining about taxes, which reminded me
of our taxes being done and that we'd worked it out to always get money
back by putting in more and living on less throughout the year.  This
made me think of tithing and how God has provided on less money by giving
over a tenth to Him.  The way that we did this is not particularly 
magical or mystical.  Tithing causes us to rearrange our priorities in
spending.  And that's the nugget of truth for the Christian's relationship
with God: seek ye first... and all these things shall be added... it is
a matter of prioritizing and placing the imprtant things ahead of self-
pleasures.  Seeking after these pleasures gets us into debt because our
priorities are skewed.  Applying this princple to my fast, I have 
learned that although eating is a necessity, we (especially in America)
have elevated it to a sensual pleasure to not be denied especially 
whenever it is available.  Eating is a sensual experience even in its
proper perspective.  Yet people don't and have not understood it to be
something that is sometimes out of the proper priority in the Christian's
life.  (I'm not preaching "body as a temple" stuff like I've seen people
who get on health kicks or exercise kicks.  Maybe if I am convicted in
that respect for my next discipline lesson... but the principle is
what is important --- way beyond practice!!)

If I fasted for Lent according to what dieters say, I'd eat at lunch time
and skip dinner, but its not for diet.  My family meets around the table
at Dinner, and that's more important that eating the "important" meal.
And I'll still be consuming food each day.

Anyway, back to the taxes and living on less money... I'm living on less
food, recently, and for Lent.  Already I have seen the law of God's
economy at work.  The pin money stays in my pocket longer.  It reduces 
the money needed for the grocery store.  It puts more thought into meals
and leftovers.  In other words - living on less gives me MORE!
That's God's economy.

Legalist?  For me, giving up Coke was the ulitmate and precious sacrafice
I could give at that time.  This time around, I considered what the Lord
would have me learn.  I have been fasting for several years on Mondays.
This is an extension of that: a month of Mondays, if you will.  When I
began to fast, I wondered about the benefit and it has taken me three years
to come to the understanding I now have, and I don't think I've peaked
in this revelation, friend.

Good luck in your promise to the Lord, Ed.  May He teach You more about 
His sacrifice through our own little gifts.

Mark

    The book where I found the most useful advice on Christian fasting is
    Richard Forster's "Celebration of Discipline" which was first published
    in the USA.  The chapters on fasting give a balanced approach to both
    spiritual and practical aspects.
    
    And the rest of the book is very valuable too.
    
    God bless,				Richard.

A good book - I've enjoyed it too!

						Andew

Hey!  Was Lent supposed to be 40 days?

Obviously, it isn't this year, and I likely have it confused with 
the 40 days after Resurrection Sunday (Easter) leading up to
His Ascension. 

Never very good with the numbers end of it,
Mark

Yes, Lent is 40 days, this year and every year.

                     1 March,  2 March,  3 March,  4 March	4
 6 March,  7 March,  8 March,  9 March, 10 March, 11 March     10
13 March, 14 March, 15 March, 16 March, 17 March, 18 March     16
20 March, 21 March, 22 March, 23 March, 24 March, 25 March     22
27 March, 28 March, 29 March, 30 March, 31 March,  1 April     28
 3 April,  4 April,  5 April,  6 April,  7 April,  8 April     34
10 April, 11 April, 12 April, 13 April, 14 April, 15 April     40

Sundays don't count.

/john

>Sundays don't count.

8^D  Ah!  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 

(I'll pass it on to my wife, who counted 31 (March) plus 16 (April).

MM

	Mark, Sundays are extra credit ;-)

>	Mark, Sundays are extra credit ;-)

  8^D   8^D

	Wilt thou forgive that sin, where I begun,
	  Which is my sin, though it were done before?
	Wilt thou forgive those sins through which I run,
	  And do run still, though still I do deplore?
	When thou hast done, thou hast not done,
	  For I have more.

	Wilt thou forgive that sin, by which I won
	  Others to sin, and made my sin their door?
	Wilt thou forgive that sin which I did shun
	  A year or two, but wallowed in a score?
	When thou hast done, thou hast not done,
	  For I have more.

	I have a sin of fear that when I've spun
	  My last thread, I shall perish on the shore;
	Swear by thyself, that at my death thy Son
	  Shall shine as he shines now, and heretofore.
	And having done that, thou hast done,
	  I fear no more.

					-- John Donne

	Lord, bless to me this Lent.

	Lord, let me fast most truly and profitably,
	  by feeding in prayer on this Spirit:
	    reveal me to myself
	      in the light of thy holiness.

	Suffer me never to think
	  that I have knowledge enough to need no teaching,
	    wisdom enough to need no correction,
	    talents enough to need no grace,
	    goodness enough to need no progress,
	    humility enough to need no repentance,
	    devotion enough to need no quickening,
	    strength sufficient without thy Spirit;
	  lest, standing still, I fall back for evermore.

	Shew me the desires that should be disciplined,
	    and sloths to be slain.
	Shew me the omissions to be made up
	    and the habits to be mended.
	And behind these, weaken, humble
	  and annihilate in me
	  self-will, self-righteousness, self-satisfaction,
	  self-sufficiency, self-assertion, vainglory.

	May my whole effort be to return to thee;
	  O make it serious and sincere
	  persevering and fruitful in result,
	    by the help of thy Holy Spirit
	      and to thy glory
		my Lord and my God.

							(by Eric Milner-White)

    
    re: .30
    
    I don't generally go in for the Catholic/Anglican form prayers, but the
    one you posted in .30 was lovely, John.
    
    Karen

>    I don't generally go in for the Catholic/Anglican form prayers, but the
>    one you posted in .30 was lovely, John.

The devout Catholic Christian sees as much life in those words as
many of us evangelicals find in the words of a hymn.  A friend of
mine has a plaque on the wall that says, "He who sings, prays twice."

"O for a thousand toungue to sing my great Redeemer's praise
The glories of my God and King; the Triumphs of His Grace"

"Come Thou Fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing Thy grace."

They likely have more meaning to us because of (a) the music and (b) it
is part of our experiences and expressions.

And singing can be just as ROTE as anything.  I sang the Doxology for
many years until something changed and the words had life!

  Praise God from whom all blessing flow!
  Praise Him all creatures here below!
  Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts!
  Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

Let us take the opportunity to see the "form" prayer for what it 
actually is, rather than for what some people may have made it to be,
or rather than how we have perceived in because of our subcultural 
expressions.  I think you did this Karen because you saw its loveliness.
I hope you lead many of us into seeing the beauty in the things of God.

Mark