Conference yukon::christian_v7

 Ray, I don't have time to reply to all of the points in your note..however,
 I believe you'd be hardpressed to find many Christians who support Mr. Phelps'
 antics. Yes, there are a few, but they are a small minority, which unfortunate-
 ly get a lot of publicity.  I understand that many of Mr. Phelps' family have
 "disowned" him because of his stand.  As a conservative/fundamentalist Baptist
  I abhor what this man has done.




Jim

    I have never heard of Rev. Phelps.  Having Aids or any other disease is
    not a sin.  It MAY have been aquired through a sinful act, maybe not. 
    The bible says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's standard
    (Rom 3:23) it further states that the penalty for that sin is death or
    spiritual separation from God (Rom 6:23).  Fortunately Christ paid the
    price, in full, for that sin that we might be free to walk in His
    righteousness.  Its by His grace that we are anything.  I believe that 
    Christ would have shown compassion and love for those with aids, as He did 
    with all people.  I believe He would have reacted to those who sinned
    in aquiring the disease in the same way that he did the woman caught in
    adultery.  He would NOT condemn them, but He would have compassion for
    them and tell them to "go and sin no more" to abide in the vine, which
    is Jesus.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 

    Hi Ray!
    
    It doesn't sound right to me that a Christian would be led by the Holy
    Spirit to do and say the things you reported of Phelps.  This is not to
    say that biblically firm admonishment of unrepentant sinners is not
    still the norm for us Christians.
    
    Good to "hear" from you Ray!
    
    jeff

    
     Is this Phelps character the one the 20/20 did a story on a few months
    ago ? Sure sounds like the same one. I think he was in Kansas City or 
    something like that. He is definitely on the fringe if he's the one I 
    saw and even if he isn't this person whom Ray speaks of is in the same
    league.
    
     Ryan

 Same guy....





Jim

    I haven't heard of the guy either, except in here and CP.
    
    AIDS is a terrible thing, but there is victory over it.  There's
    victory in Jesus and in honoring His covenant of marriage.  Regardless
    of lifestyle or orientation, 82% of all AIDS cases were a result of a
    relations outside the Holy covenant of marriage.  If people honored the
    institutions of God, you'd practically eliminate any further
    transmissions.
    
    Mike

    I'm pretty sure that if Jesus were walking around on earth today, He
    would touch and hug all of the victims of AIDS, just as He did whenever
    He met a leper.  That's my Lord!!!!
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

 >   Would you say it is a Christian act to barge in during
 >   a service and make statements like, gas'em all, place all hiv infected
 >   individuals in concentration camps and God's righteous wrath is upon
 >   them.

No.

	Phelps (I won't demean the title "Reverend" by applying it to him)
	runs (I won't call him a pastor) the Westboro Baptist Church in
	Topeka, Kansas.

	The congregation consists almost entirely of those of his children
	who have not disowned him (he has a very large family), plus a few
	(very few) other close associates.

	He goes all over the country picketing events; if you've seen a
	"God hates ____" sign at an event (such as the East Boston St.
	Patrick's Day parade), it was probably held up by Phelps or one
	of his family members.

	I had a long talk on the phone 3-4 months ago with one of his
	sons, to tell him that I think they are going about their campaign
	in a totally un-Christian manner, and that they needed to work on
	preaching the truth in love, and not in hate.

/john

    
    I saw him on TV this past weekend. The man has a perverted outlook as
    to what Christians are to be doing as Gospel Workers. His ministry
    (if you want to call it that) would be more affective if he spoke
    of Christ's Love and how much He want everyone in His Kingdom. Jesus
    wants so much to pour out His Holy Spirit on repentant sinners.
    This type of ministry give religion a bad name, and boy doesn't the
    media pick up on things like that!!
    
    Bruce
    

 Yes, the media loves to use this guy as the representatives of Christian
 thought on the subject.





Jim

	Jim, I didn't think the media uses Phelps as "the" tell all for
Christians. I have always seen them show the guy as what he is, someone who
perceives himself as being driven by God, but his actions state otherwise. I
have always seen them state that he does not represent mainstream christianity.
But I have only seen interviews, and not news reports. It might be different
there.


Glen

 I've noticed that they show him rather prominently when they show
 demonstrations/parades etc..20/20 when they did a piece on him didn't
 go to a great deal of trouble to explain that he was an extremist and
 not generally accepted by Christians.




Jim

    The Media never hesitates to show off some wierdo, making sure everyone
    knows they are a "Christian," so that they can attach to stereotype to
    all of us.  They've been doing it for years.
    
    Like Steve Taylor said in his song "Meat The Press" (spelling
    intentional):
    
    "A Christian can't get equal time
     Unless he's a looney committing a crime"
    
    Mike

    
     When I saw the piece 20/20 did, they did point out that many churches
    in the area where Phelps' "church" was located were coming out against 
    him and his tactics, reaching out with compassion to the afflicted in 
    the community as well.
     I was pleased to see that 20/20 was not making a sweeping indictment
    of Christians in general. 
    
     RG 

re .15

Phelps has picketed other churches in Topeka as well, if their national
bodies are wrestling with his issue, as Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian,
and Methodist national organizations all are.

/john

      Hi Ray,
    
        It is VERY good to hear from you!!
    
        You know...I am pretty sure you already knew the answer
        to your question!
    
                                                Tony

    
    	
    	Sounds like his version of Christianity is;
    
    		Hate the sin, hate the sinner !
    
    	When I read the base note, I thought of Jesus standing over the 
    	coffins mourning with the family, and being taunted by this man.
    	
    	Whoever does this to the least of my children, does this to me !
    	Are those afflicted by this disease by however they were infected,
    	the least of God's children ? Like all God's children in this world
    	suffering now. 
    
    	Peace,
    
    		Tom

    	
>    	Whoever does this to the least of my children, does this to me !
>    	Are those afflicted by this disease by however they were infected,
>    	the least of God's children ? Like all God's children in this world
>    	suffering now. 
    
    The context of Jesus's comments concerning children was made about
    children, not adults.
    
    All people suffering now are not God's children in a spiritual sense,
    only in a physical sense.  Don't get that point confused.  Though
    suffering is used by God in many people's lives, much suffering is the
    result of sinful actions.
    
    jeff 
    

    Yesterday I read John's version of the woman caught in the act of
    committing adultery.
    
    The pharasees wanted Jesus to condemn the woman to stoning.  
    
    When he asked that the person without sin cast the first stone, they
    all left.
    
    "Who has condemned you", he asks the women.  "No one, she replies"
    
    "Then I will not condemn you either", Jesus replies.  "Go and sin no
    more"  
    
    Who is it here who will determine, who is a child of  God, and who is
    not?  Let's be careful that we do not condemn ourselves by our very
    questions!
    
                                            Patricia

    While I am in agreement that no-one knows the heart of an individual
    but God, the Bible states emphatically that there are "signs" or
    "evidences" of one's Christianity.  There are character traits and
    definite tenets of faith that are requirements of God.  
    
    I can only ascertain for "my own discernment" whether I believe one
    walks the path of Christianity or one that runs parallel.  And if the
    Spirit prompts to speak to someone whom I believe may be in spiritual
    peril.
    
    If someone is convinced they are Christian outside of the Bible's way,
    and after having spoken to them, they continue to insist, all I can do
    is pray.
    
    Nancy

    
>    Who is it here who will determine, who is a child of  God, and who is
>    not?  Let's be careful that we do not condemn ourselves by our very
>    questions!
    
    What does this mean?
    
    jeff

    It's the Holiday season.  Everybody is out purchasing those gifts, the
    spirit in general is one of generosity and good will towards men.  One
    year my oldest son Matthew wanted a "remote control car", the one
    without the "wire".   I searched and searched for an affordable remote
    control car, when I stumbled into a well-known electronics store in the
    mall.  They had two cars left and both were at a price lower then
    anyplace I'd been.  So I bought it.
    
    Christmas morning Matthew opened that gift and immediately asked for
    batteries [which I'd bought].  He installed them,  went to the garage,
    pushed the remote control button and the car did not move.  Needless to
    say I tried the batteries every which way I could - even without them!!
    
    I ended up at the EXCHANGE line the day after Christmas in order to get
    another car for him.  To EXCHANGE the BROKEN car for a NEW car.
    
    Isaiah 64:6  But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
    righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; 
    and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    
    It is because of our sinfulness that Christ came.  Have you ever seen a
    building that has been destroyed by fire?  Walk with me for a moment in
    to that building.  It's black with soot and ashes.  If you touch the
    ash it leaves a film on your skin.  The smell is unpleasing and there
    is nothing, I mean nothing left.  Not one shred of anyone's life in
    that building.
    
    In Isaiah 61:3, God says that Christ came to EXCHANGE beauty for ashes,
    the oil of joy for mourning and the garment of praise for the spirit of
    heaviness.  
    
    God takes our SINFULNESS and EXCHANGES it for RIGHTEOUSNESS!  Amen!!
    
    In the parable of the woman caught in adultery, it was Jesus' way of
    once again re-emphasizing the "sinful" state of man/woman [kind].
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    

 ....and all God's people said...

    >Are we not all safer in assuming that everyone is a child of God?
    
    No,  we are not safe in assuming this.  However, that doesn't mean I'm
    for actions such as describe in the basenote.  Being a witness or light
    of Christ is a command, not an offering.
    
    >THe message of the story of the woman commiting adultery is that it
    >is not the women who sins that is not a child of God, but it is
    >perhaps the pharisees that are quick to condemn her who may in fact be
    >condemning themselves by their condemnation.
    
    If you take the scripture as a whole in this chapter your theory or
    interpretation is easily dissuaded.
    
    For Christ told the woman to "Go and SIN no more."  Her sinfulness was
    an issue with the son of God.
    
    Nancy

    
    I'm sorry Ray but i really can't answer your questions.  How could I?
    
    jeff

    There is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ
    Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
    
    The Bible says to be careful in judging because the meter by which you
    judge others will be used in judgement of you.  In this we agree.
    
    However, that is not how I read your note.  I read your note to
    indicate that the woman was NOT sinful.  
    
    There is ONE interpretation for scripture, but MANY applications.
    
    Nancy

    Patricia,
    
    We do not agree that salvation is for everyone.  Salvation is for those
    who recognize their sin and receive Christ only are SPIRITUAL children
    of God, as Jeff mentioned in his note.
    
    Please re-read .24 of this note for a more complete response to the
    "sinfulness" of man and its reward. 
    
    Also look at Romans 6:23... and Romans 10:9-10
    
    
    

      Hi Ray,
    
        Hang in there brother.  Somewhere in the midst of all of
        the myriad representations of who Christ is, is the real
        and I am sure that One is one that you wouldn't have a
        hard time with.  You can rest in Him and not have to anguish
        about what kind of heart He has.  It really is 100% love.
    
                                                Tony

    Interesting typing of my name there, Patricia! :-) :-)
    Is Nancy, xANCY??? :-)
    
    I know we don't agree on what is salvation... :-(
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    Patricia,
    
    What if the Pharisees had done the same thing that Jesus had told --
    told the woman that they didn't condemn her and to go and sin no more?
    Would they have then been judging the woman, or would they have been
    showing love to her by wanting the best for her?
    
    Scripture says that God is love and He loves everyone (not just
    Christians).  As a child of God, I am to have an attitude of love and
    compassion.  If I my next door neighbor was asleep inside his/her
    burning house, I would do everything in my power to help them get out. 
    I would not have come to know the Lord if someone had not taken the
    time and energy to love me right where I was and at the same time to
    share with me how I might come to know Christ in a personal way.   In
    the same way I will seek to share Christ's love and the gospel message
    with others.
    
    Ray,
    
    You made several good points regarding people saying God caused AIDS as
    judgement on the sinful.  That brings about another question of why
    does God allow bad things to happen to good people, and allow the
    unjust to prosper?  There is a psalm which covers this very question
    (although I can't remember which one off the top of my head).  I have
    to keep reminding myself that I only have a very temporal perspective
    on circumstances, where God has an eternal perspective -- He sees
    eternally into the past and future.  There are some questions that I
    will never have answered (at least until I get to heaven).  In the mean
    time I have to trust Him to be God.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    

      Hi Patricia and Others,
    
        I just want to differentiate my belief system from Patricia's
        on the point of universal salvation.  
    
        I do not believe God condemns anyone (including the unsaved),
        but that sin condemns and God's love simply makes sin manifest.
        But, I do believe there are some who will be unsaved.
    
        Perverted though it be, some can (and do) choose to eternally 
        reject God.
    
                                                   Tony

	Granted, the words and actions of this Topeka preacher and his
children definitely have the *appearance* of being hateful.

	However, let's not be hasty to condemn here.  Who shows more love
and compassion as a Christian?  Those of us who show complete "tolerance"
of any behavior, no matter how destructive it may be?  Or is it, perhaps,
those few who raise their voices in warning, no matter how unwelcome their
message, in hopes of rescuing a few people from destruction (both temporal
and possibly eternal)?

	I personally would not picket a funeral, since it is too late to do
anything for the person who has died, and God is well able to speak to the
mourners through the tragedy of the death.

	Then again, I would not be courageous or compassionate enough to
directly and personally confront overwhelming numbers of people with a very
unwelcome message, as I have seen this preacher's daughter do in Boulder.

If this preacher were standing at events (not funerals) with signs
that said

		God loves you and wants you to stop ____

it would be Christian compassion.

But he isn't.  He and his followers stand there with signs that say

		God hates [certain people].

Christian compassion would be for the rest of us to surround him and
make sure no one sees those hateful signs.

/john

	Aw, there y'all go condemning the man and saying hateful things
about him again.  It's not my kind of approach, it's not your kind of
approach, it's Ben Phelps' kind of approach.

	Take another look at the Scriptures.  Try a word search for "hate".
See for yourself whether God has expressed hatred toward any person or not.

	I'm sorry, John, but this time you haven't made a strong case for
your position.  Did God tell Jonah to tell the Ninevites that God loved them?
Nope.  He was to tell them that God was about to judge their city by
destroying it.  Don't call it "Christian compassion" to try to suppress
a dire warning when it is called for.  Did God love the Ninevites? 
Apparently so, since He sent Jonah to them, then spared their lives after
they repented of their wickedness.  Did Jesus love the moneychangers that
he drove out of the temple?  Apparently so, even though all they heard and
felt from Him that day was "Get Out!" and the possibly the sting of a lash
if they were too slow to move!  Did He love the Pharisees, even though He
spoke *harshly* and *condemningly* to them, calling them a brood of vipers
and sons of Satan?  Apparently so, since He took the time to explain to
Nicodemus (a Pharisee who came to Him under cover of darkness) how he could
enter the Kingdom of God.

	Patricia,

>    Carrying a sign that says God hates anyone is HERESY and  BLASPEMY. 
>    Christian's that don't address this very serious sin while addressing
>    other issues, are remiss.  

Okay, let's assume I'm remiss here.  Please explain how from the Scriptures.
Kindly start by explaining Psalm 5:5 for me.

    .44
    
    Amen Andrew!  Well said... and convicting of my own need to continually
    witness.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    re .43
    
    but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make
    a defense to every one who asks you to give an account for the hope
    that is in you, yet with *gentleness* and *reverence*.
    
    				1 Peter 3:15

    >If God created everyone of us in his image.
        
    >   And God is omnipotent and God is Love,
        
    >    How could he ever fail at winning the hearts, mind, and soul of
    >    everyone?
    
    What does it mean that we are created in God's image?  Would God be
    more loving if He simply made us robots with no free will?  Is it
    possible that there are other forces at work to win our hearts, mind,
    and soul?
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    
    

>    But which force is the Most Powerful?

God will not force Himself upon us.  That is the ultimate love, to allow
the free choice, even of rejection.

I have alluded to the marriage relationship being a picture, or reflection 
of the relationship that God wants to have with us.  Indeed, the Bible is
full of this imagery with Christ and the Church and God and Israel.

A husband who forces himself on his wife is little better than a rapist.
Yet a wife who yields in submission, invites her husband into her and
the relationship takes on a transcendental nature.  (I have said before
that we are all female to God in the sense that masculinity and feminity
transcend the physical and chemical attributes of people.)  When we understand
how God wants to enter into a perfect relationship with us, we know that
He will never force Himself to enjoin ourselves to Him if we do not want
to.

Mark

      Hi Patricia,
    
        The only answer to your question that does not embrace 
        universalism is that somehow people can be so darkened
        in their hearts that they can reject perfect, infinite
        love.  In other words, somehow free will, in some cases,
        can push back perfect infinite love and choose in favor
        of something else.
    
                                              Tony

    >    How humbling that must be for a man!
        
        
    >    To identify himself as a FEMALE before God.
    
    Why do you say that?  I'm humbled as a man before my wife (and God) all
    the time 8^).  It SEEMS that you have a presumption that all Christian men
    are prejudiced against women.  It has been repeatedly stated by most of
    the folks in this conference that in Christ there is no superiority of one 
    gender over the other-- that we are to submit to one another in love.
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

Patricia, 
  What Bing said.

  It would be a good study for us all to consider what humility 
actually is.

Mark

    >    To identify himself as a FEMALE before God.

I need to make further comment.  Not as *a* female, but feminine.
Again, we must see beyond what makes you and me female and male and
understand the archetypes involved (not the stereotypes).  It is 
difficult to understand only because of the baggage we bring to the
definitions of masculine and feminine, or husband and wife roles.
We are not the essence but the reflection, therefore we cannot use
the reflection to accurately define what is meant by masculinity and
femininity when talking about the love relationship God wants to have
with each of us.  We need to use the essence to define how we (in our
reflection of His relationship) are to behave as man and woman.
Without the baggage and into the pure, we do not see conflict and
contention, but the compliment and harmony of two persons in a 
relationship.  Outside of God, and His purifying Spirit, we set 
ourselves up for conflict and contention of roles.  Even if we cannot
see this able to work in the human sense, we should attempt to see it
from the God-perspective as to how He meant it, and then attempt to 
apply it to our humanity with His help.

Mark

    God must really be wanting to learn about humility... that's 3 times
    it's come up in the last 24 hours... hmmmmmmm
    
    :-)

    I have moved several notes which deal with free-will or predestination
    to note 641.
    
    Bing

    re .73
    
    Jobs friends told Job that his troubles (sickness, death of family,
    etc) were the result of his sin as well.  We know that was not the case
    with Job -- God allowed Satan to test Job.  In the end Job was faithful
    to God and God caused him to prosper.
    
    God's ways are higher than man's ways.  God surely will reveal Himself
    to us as we seek Him through His Word and through conversation with
    Him, but no one here knows all of God's mind or why some things happen. 
    Even the apostle Paul said, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then
    face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I
    also have been fully known." (1 Cor 13:12).
    
    My father-in-law died of cancer.  He was a Christian who loved God and
    other people.  Did he die because of his sinful actions?  Of course
    not!  He was made a pure as the snow by the Jesus who died for him and
    lived inside him.  Why did he die?  I don't know, but I do know that he is 
    with Jesus now, based on God's Word.
    
    We should have compassion on those who have aids, as well as any who
    are suffering.  If those folks haven't by faith accepted the free gift
    of grace which Christ offers us, we need to let them know that God
    loves them and they can still have a personal relationship with Christ
    for eternity (which starts the moment that accept Him).
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

Re .76 I did a word search on the NT on two words "gnashing" and "lake" and
    the following came up.  You may choose not to believe the bible, but I
    don't see how anyone who reads these (the words in Matt & Luke are
    those of Jesus) can interpret that there will not be eternal suffering
    for those who reject the free gift of God's grace.  As Andrew stated
    earlier-- God in His love for us paid the penalty for us, suffering an
    agonizing death for us, becoming sin so we might be made sinless.  All we 
    have to do is receive Him by faith.
     
Mt   8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into
utter darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mt   13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mt   13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mt   22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and
foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into utter darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mt   24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his
portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth. {cut...: or, cut him off}

Mt   25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into utter
darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lu   13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye
shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in
the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] excluded.

Re   19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false
prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived
them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that
worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of
fire burning with brimstone.

Re   20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
[are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re   20:15 And whoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.

Re   21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable,
and murderers, and immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters,
and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth
with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the
fire.

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of
heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy
name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works?

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that
work iniquity.

    
    The idea of Universal Salvation is, well, interesting, but ultimately
    provides little instruction, growth, etc.
    
    If all are saved, despite beliefs (or unbeliefs), actions (or
    inactions) then what's the point?  Nothing is moral or immoral. 
    Nothing is good or bad.  Repentance and atonement become likewise
    meaningless.  After all, we are all going to the same place,
    right?  Since it is salvation, it is a good place, right.  Wait a
    minute, there isn't any good or evil.  Maybe it is just a place, then.
    Hey, I'm some place now!
    
    My point here is that this philosophy is ultimately self-defeating.
    God can work all things to His glory, but I don't believe that all
    things we do are pleasing to Him.  Some things we do have consequences
    associated with them.  My Bible is a guide in learning how best to 
    serve my Lord Jesus Christ.
    
    Otto

 Amen, Otto..

.58 Patricia

I regret not having the time to engage you in a discussion of this
to perhaps attempt to arrive at some mutual understanding about
male and female.  We do not agree on the context of .58.  My week
has been -um, filled with other matters demanding most of my attention.
Please forgive this uncharacteristic bow-out.  Thanks.

Mark

  Hi,

    In spite of the fact that this is perhaps the most 'rathole'
    of subjects, because of Ray's concerns, I am compelled to
    say a couple of things.  (By subject, I refer to the state
    of the lost, i.e. eternal torment versus temporary followed
    by anihilation.)

    Ray, as far as who is the real Christ?  I can only state that
    the cross could not have finished everything because if it had,
    God would not wait 2000 years and witness all this unutterable
    pain.  I believe that issues are pending in the universe, that
    there is a battle of issues between Christ and Satan - and God
    has yet to win His case.  The winning of His case is very important
    for it will seal in the minds of those that choose to follow Him,
    the finalization of atonement.  A reconciliation of heart to Him
    that is so complete that they will be eternally safeguarded from
    sin and its effects.  It is because of the nonfinalization of the
    atonement (which among other things decides all the issues) that
    sin and its pain must be allowed to endure a bit longer.

    In short, there has got to be some pain for awhile Ray.  But, no 
    one aches over the pain like God does.

    Now to the question of eternal torment.  I know Ray to be one
    sharp guy.  His mind most likely already has leaped from the
    question of pain in the temporal to the possibility of pain in
    the eternal.  The doctrine of eternal torment for the unsaved is
    like a Colossus that dwarfs any questions anyone might have about
    pain in the temporal realm.  For this reason, I reply!!

    Andy, you stated that God does not sustain evil.  Actually, in its
    most overwhelming aspect, your position on the state of the unsaved
    implies that God is the ultimate sustainer of sin and all its 
    accompanying pain and evil.
  
    True, you can state that we all have a choice, BUT God still had a
    choice for those He knew would choose condemnation.  Anyone's life
    is the prerogative of God.  He is the Life-giver.  We all live and
    breath and have our being by the grace of God.  (I know there's a
    scripture out there that says something like this!!)

    Assuming unconditional immortality, it is God who's grace gives the
    unsaved their life, breath, and being and thus which perpetuates
    forever sin and evil and pain.  Ponder this, God is thus consciously
    insisting on the eternal presence of sin and pain.

    As to the doctrine, I just want to point out the greater flexibility
    of meaning of the original Greek word which is rendered as eternal
    or forever or forever and ever in the NT English.  That word is aion,
    aionios, or some other form (of the same) in the Greek.

    I had the powerful blessing of investigating the occurance of this 
    particular word in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX).
    I saw several passages in the OT which described time durations of
    obviously finite time duration with the english "forever".  I reasoned 
    that if the LXX also used aion, aionios or some other forms AS IT
    DOES IN THE NT for the English forever than it must follow that aion
    does not necessarily imply infinite time duration.

    This was an example of digging deeper into the word and expecting the
    word to bless me with a deeper revelation of truth.  Someone got back
    to me with the LXX renderings and lo and behold, they were all aion, 
    aionios etcetera.

    Conclusion: By far the greatest defense of unconditionalism was based
                on an erroneas presupposition; that being that the Greek
                words aion, aionios must mean forever or eternal.

    What a blessing that discovery was for me!!

    Philemon 15 uses aion or aionios and Jude speaks of Sodom as an example 
    of eternal destruction.  It really is a good example in more ways than
    many of us have been led to believe.

    And finally, "only God has immortality" and he who accepts Christ has
    life as a gift from God.

                                                       God Bless,

                                                       Tony

      Hi Andy,
    
        Just want to say that my deeper digging was not a form of
        'emotionalism', but rather a work of some scholarship - and
        one which lends strong support to my position.  So I do 
        contend that I have depended on the word of God and cite my
        aionios study as one very small example.  I strongly recommend
        to you, 'The Fire That Consumes' by Ed Fudge.  Here is a man
        who always believed as do you and through monumental study came
        to the truth, although doing so was against his wishes and was
        very painful.  The support of the majority is no barometer of
        truth even though you may wish to suggest it is.
    
        Again, this is one very fine work ('The Fire That Consumes' I 
        mean.)
    
        "Whatever is not of faith is sin."  If they have any consciouss-
        ness whatsoever and if faith is not there, sin must be.
    
        Methinks your own human reasoning is placing you on a fairly
        strange perch!!!
    
                                                 God Bless,
    
                                                 Tony
                        

RE:                     <<< Note 637.83 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>
                             -< Mainly for Ray... >-

 
 >   Ray, as far as who is the real Christ?  I can only state that
 >   the cross could not have finished everything because if it had,
  


   So, was Jesus lying when He said "It is FINISHED"?





    Jim

Hi Tony,

I don't want to rehash old ground.  You have entered your study in here
previously, and it was perceived as placing you outside the Word of God. 

One thing you never did respond on was whether annihilationism is the
general SDA stance? 

								Andrew

    .86
    
    Amen Jimbo!!! You hit that one on the head. :-)
    
    

      re: last few
    
      Andy,
    
        It was decided by whom that I went outside the Bible?
        By you perhaps?  
    
      Jim,
    
        So what does "IT" refer to?  I am not denying that something
        wasn't finished!  I am sure I have a different take as to 
        what "IT" is.  But, if you want to prove to me what you think
        "IT" is, go ahead.
    
        I believe the full efficacioussness of the cross is the revelation
        it conveys.  The atonement is not finished when God gives that
        revelation, it is finished when He gets His people to RECEIVE that
        revelation, i.e. the sacrifice goes from the outer court to the
        Most Holy and when the blood cleanses the Most Holy, the atonement
        is finished.
    
        The atonement does not reconcile God to man.  It reconciles man to
        God.  It is a revelation of God's self-sacrificing love that
        'propitiates' man to God.  This takes place NOT when that
        revelation is given, but rather when it is received by faith.
    
                                                    Tony
    

    Jesus is so FINISHED that He is currently seated at the right-hand of
    God.  Obviously, if He still had work to do, He wouldn't be seated.

    This is another one of those subjects that we've been 'round and 'round
    on.  It doesn't seem that anything NEW is being said.  So I won't add
    my previously stated arguments again.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

 what Bing said..





Jim

>        I believe the full efficacioussness of the cross is the revelation
>        it conveys.  The atonement is not finished when God gives that
>        revelation, it is finished when He gets His people to RECEIVE that
>        revelation, i.e. 
    
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    God can't make it any simpler for you, Tony.  This and all the other
    passages like it (i.e., Romans 10:9-13) are all too obvious.
    
    >the sacrifice goes from the outer court to the
>        Most Holy and when the blood cleanses the Most Holy, the atonement
>        is finished.
    
    The veil was ripped in too and after receiving Christ, we can boldly
    enter the Holy of Holies.  
    
Ephesians 2:18-22
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with
the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in
the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the
Spirit

Ephesians 3:12
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

>        The atonement does not reconcile God to man.  It reconciles man to
>        God.  It is a revelation of God's self-sacrificing love that
>        'propitiates' man to God.  This takes place NOT when that
>        revelation is given, but rather when it is received by faith.
    
    Agreed.  I have received this according to God's Word and now have it.
    Tony, it's time for you also to stop living under the Law and enter the
    New Covenant.
    
    Mike

      Hi Bing,
    
        I would like to add one thing for you Bing.  You stated that
        we are clean NOW and listed excellent texts as support.  But,
        another text is very telling.  Check out 2 Corin 6:11-7:1.
    
        If you read through ch. 6, you will see he is writing to
        BELIEVERS.  He tells them not to be unequally yoked (vs. 14)
        and tells them they are the temple of the living God (vs 16)
        and even refers to that temple as that which God dwells in
        in man.
    
        Bing, consider your assertion that we are now clean in the 
        light of 1 Corin 7:1.
    
        Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us *cleanse*
        ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting
        holiness in the fear of God.
    
        Why should we be called to any cleansing if (in every way), we
        already are clean???  But, holiness in the fear of God has not
        been perfected, i.e. in at least one aspect cleansing is not
        entirely accomplished.
    
        The Bible says we are now clean and other verses call us to be
        cleansed.
    
        It says we are now sanctified and other verses says we are being
        sanctified.
    
        It says we are now perfect and other verses says we are being
        perfected.
    
        One verse says the atonement (reconciliation - interchangeable)
        is finished and other verses say (to Christians) be ye reconciled
        (atoned) to God.
    
        I acknowledge tension.  I just happen to believe that we are not
        entirely cleansed, sanctified, made perfect, and reconciled to
        God in every way that the Bible means it.
    
        But, when the High Priest cleanses the sanctuary (see Leviticus
        16), God's people will be cleansed, sanctified, perfected, and
        reconciled in ways that the verses which speak of presently 
        being cleansed, etc. do not mean.
    
        Anyway, Bing, I just thought it noteworthy that your posture did
        not leave any room for embracing the notion that there is a
        cleansing yet not completely accomplished all the while 2 Corin 7
        refers to one (to people who are already born-again Christians).
        To that effect, 2 Corin 7:1 is the introduction of something NEW.
    
        To summarize...all I can say is that the existence of even a 
        single sinful thought in any one of God's people is proof positive
        that there is something less than complete reconciliation (atone-
        ment).  The source of nonreconciliation is the human heart and the
        perfection (completion) of reconciliation is equivalent to the
        perfect cleansing, sanctifying, perfecting of the human heart.
    
        That's where the nonreconciliation began and that's where the
        finishing of the work of reconciliation will end.
    
        Am I striking a chord with anyone with the concept that sin implies 
        that the human heart is not completely reconciled to God?
    
                                                     Tony
                       

 13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us 
into the kingdom of his dear Son: 


 14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of 
sins: 

 20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to 
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in 
earth, or things in heaven. 

 21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked 
works, yet now hath he reconciled 

 22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and 
unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 

    What Paul talks about in 2 Corin 6:11-7:1 he also touches on in Romans 7.
    If the Bible didn't say Lot was a righteous man, I never would've
    guessed it.  Especially after the way he backslid to a point where he
    was living in Sodom and also what happened in Genesis 19:30-38.  Here
    he was at the low point of his life and didn't even know it.  It was
    because of this that 2 of Israel's biggest enemies were created: the
    pagan cultures of Moabites and Ammonites.
    
    But the Bible says he was righteous and he was saved.  His belief in
    God and God's grace was sufficient for him.  
    
    Tony, you are confusing full atonement with the gradual battle in
    winning out over the flesh.  Struggling with sin is a sure sign of
    someone still living under the old covenant.
    
    Mike

See .0.
See .last numerous
See tangent and repeat of previous tangents.
See Mark run.

      re: -1
    
      "See .0"
    
      You're right Mark.  It was not right for me to engage in a
      tangent such as this while someone may be hurting.
    
      I'm sorry Ray and I'm sorry to the rest of you.
    
      If any of you would like to discuss this some more, I am willing
      to do so in a nice loving way.
    
      I'll not reply in this topic on the digression, but if anyone
      opens up a topic on the digression, I'll participate for a
      spell.
    
                                             God Bless,
    
                                             Tony

    8^)
    
           O
    	  \|\
    	  / \
          \  \ 	 
    
    [above is my WEAK attempt at ascii art]

Is snarfing Christian?

>Is snarfing Christian?

It certainly can be!  Oh, sorry.  *Another* tangent!

>      I'll not reply in this topic on the digression, but if anyone
>      opens up a topic on the digression, I'll participate for a
>      spell.
    
    no need to start another, there's a few already out there created by
    you.

      Nice art Bing!
    
      I'll give it a shot Mike.  My Notes skills are decidedly 
      lacking.  I basically just log in, type in some ridiculously
      large number like '100000000', do a 'dir' and see what people
      are talking about!
    
      Ray...you still there?
    
                                                 Tony

    Tony, try this command to see the new stuff when you open a conference:
    
    Notes> SET PROFILE/AUTOMATIC=UNSEEN
    
    Then hit the comma on your keypad to go through the new entries in each
    topic.
    
    Mike