Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Independent and Fundamental = ME :-)
    
    The rest are run by church government outside the local church body.
    

RE: <<< Note 617.0 by TOLKIN::JBROWN >>>
	
        Don't forget 7th Day Baptists, ";^) Bapticostals, National
        Baptists, and the GARB (General Assembly of Regular Baptists).  

        Independent Baptist churches do not adhere to an heirarchy that
        decides doctrinal and other issues from the top down.  They are
        likely to be controlled by the local assembly (congregational
        model), their deacon board (presbyterian model), or their pastor.
	They might join a loose "fellowship" of like-minded congregations
	for singspirations, holiday festivities, and outings.

        Fundamental Baptist churches claim the Bible to be the only rule of
        faith and practice.  They often regard translations other than KJV
        as inferior, though this has been changing recently.  It is
	unlikely that you will find a Fundamental Baptist church that is
	not premillenial.

	GARB churches are Fundamental but more closely associated than
	their independent brethren, though they do not consider themselves
	a denomination. 

        Don't know much about Southern Baptists, ABC, or CBA.  I'm told
        that they tend to be more liberal than the Fundamental-Indepen-
        dents, and I know that the ABC ordains female pastors.  I know of
        one CBA church where the pastor said that he believes Jesus sinned.  

	Regards,
		Tony	

    I attend a Southern Baptist church.  Remember the conservative-liberal
    split within the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) several years ago. 
    There are both those who are conservative in doctrine and those who are
    liberal in doctrine within the SBC.  Its been my experience that each
    church is a little bit different.  There are churchs that use only SBC
    literature and bible study materials, and there are churchs that use
    very little SBC material.  
    
    An example of a conservative SB church would be 1st Baptist of Atlanta.
    Charles Stanley is pastor of First Baptist Atlanta, which is a Southern 
    Baptist Church (he was president of the convention several years back). 
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that you would probably get a lot of
    disagreement of what Southern Baptist doctrine is, even from members of
    a SBC.  
    
    Bing  

    
    SBC is the largest with 14 million affiliates.  SBC churches are
    generally independent of the SBC in every regard though sharing
    doctrinal statements/beliefs with the SBC heirarchy.  but the strictest
    and most accurate definition of a SBC congregation is that it
    affiliates with the SBC through giving a certain percentage of its
    budget to the SBC for missions and other such things.
    
    The SBC came as a direct result of tension over the issue of slavery. 
    the northern baptist is the other result.  american baptists are very
    liberal.
    
    independent baptists are just that.  they are often, in the south,
    anti-intellectual and biblical literalists.  lay pastors often lead
    them.
    
    jeff

    .4
    
    I beg your pardon - what do you mean by unintellectual???
    
    

    You know Nancy, like you and I.  Unintellectual Baptists :-)

    .6
    
    :-)  Dave, shame on you!  I won't tell anyone about our cerebral
    conversations if you don't!
    
    Nancy

 I think Jeff said "antiintellectual"....




 Jim another independant Baptist..I've always belonged to one independant
 church or another, but having settled in a Baptist church, I'm quite
 happy..




 

Different again in the UK...

Baptist churches were generally under the Baptist Union until it moved to a
liberal stance, not formally accepting the innerrancy and authority of the
Bible.  Since then, a lot of Baptist churches have come out of the union
(though it has proved difficult or impossible to rationalise their
trustees, so the Baptist Union remains as trustees of the buildings...). 
So Baptist Union churches can be anything from liberal to
reformed-but-still-under-the-Union, but there's also independent baptist
churches which can be part of a similar spectrum, and you have to know each
one individually to make your choice.

Then there's Strict Baptist churches, of which there are 'Gospel Standard',
and others (forgotten their name...).  They tend to be reformed, Calvinist,
and strictly adhere to the Authorised Version only. 

In the UK, Union and independent Baptist churches tend to be amillenial and
acharismatic, Strict Baptist churches tend to be premillenial and
acharismatic. 

Sorry to deviate from the topic, but thought I would add it to show 
something of the situation over here...

							Andrew

      Hi,
    
        A question on baptists.  Did they 'descend' from the 
        anabaptists?
    
        One thing I heard is that baptists are Calvinists.  Do
        all baptists believe that God foreordained who would be
        lost and who would be saved?  In other words, person 'A'
        is saved because God decided this and Person 'B' is lost
        because God decided that.  Is that a true statement that
        all baptist churches believe this?
    
        One other question...
    
        Very early in my Christian experience, I Bible studied
        with some southern baptists.  I started becoming convicted
        on the seventh-day Sabbath and I asked a couple of them
        what their position was.  I was handed a tract on southern
        baptists and it said that the day was changed.  Is that
        a fair representation of what baptists believe?  (Not a
        'Romans 14 position', but rather the position that God wills
        that all His people rest on the first day as a switch of
        days from 7th to 1st took place.)
    
                                               Thanks,
    
                                               Tony

    There really is not a "Baptist" denomination, but rather several
    different denominations that share "Baptist" as part of there title. 
    So, when asking what Baptist believe about a certain issue, its
    necessary to specify which Baptist denomination is being referred to. 
    The same goes for the Presbyterian Churchs (as Jeff Benson can expound
    on) who hold vastly different beliefs from one another.
    
    I would concur with Jeff's earlier comments when referring to SBC
    beliefs (each church is affiliated with the denomination, but is pretty
    much autonomous in how it chooses to interpret scripture - there are
    churchs they don't take the bible literally and there are those who
    believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God.  FWIW, I have
    never been in a SBC that did not have a Sunday morning service, so that
    probably says something about the Sabbath issue.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    
    re: anabaptists and baptists.   anabaptists were a group that broke
    away from the reformers over the issue of child baptism.  i have the
    historical info concerning them and will attempt to enter it as i can.
    
    if you split all evangelical churches into calvinist or arminian, for
    example, baptists are calvinists and methodists are arminian.
    considering baptists more in depth most would not be consciously
    calvinist or maybe better said could not articulate what calvinism is
    accurately.  in fact, you will find a general absence of theological
    understanding in the baptist camps of the south.  this is, in my opinion, 
    partly related to their congregationalism where culture and
    democratic ideaology combine to overpower explicit biblical authority
    in the church.  all congregational forms of government will struggle
    with this, in my opinion, and most will lose the battle.
    
    btw, i did say anti-intellectual Nancy.  i also said "in the south". 
    though hard to believe, there is a kind of pride to be found in
    ignorance.
    
    jeff 

    .15
    
    I came from the south Jeff, and I don't know of this ignorance that you
    refer to.  I find that in the south or any poorer state there are those
    who are called ignorant just because of their lack of education.
    
    Lack of education doesn't = ignorant.  Lack of wisdom = ignorant. 
    Wisdom pertaining to things of God.  There is also something called
    "common sense" that has nothing to do with lack of education as well.
    
    I know many a person who's language skills suffer greatly, but their
    ability to do the right thing and their common sense approach to life
    and God makes them more wise then any college graduate I've ever met.
    
    Nancy
    

    Baptist came from anaBaptists.  Jimbo you still have that pamphlet the
    trail of blood that I gave you?

Um... so if I said I wanted to become a Baptist, would I get a dozen or more
pamphlets in the mail?  ;-)

Rats.  I had hoped for some statement of commonality.
However, even though the Church of the Nazarene has a defined
hierarchy, each church is unique in flavor and constituency,
as with all churches.  The common foundational doctrine, though,
means that you'll know what you get when you walk in: like MacDonald's eh?
(Ouch.  Sorry Nazarenes. [which is me, too])

So far, we haven't had to contend with too many other churches with
the same name in it.  Adopting a "Baptist" title or "Presbyterian" or 
"Church of Christ" in your title, for example, means you may get steak 
and potatoes, or you may get rump roast.  And to me Catholic and Episcopal
are like MacDonalds and Burger King (so maybe we're Wendy's).

Wait wait, the analogy is coming better:  Baptist churches are like Pizzarias!
SDAs are KFC and Lutherans: Taco Bell.

Oh forget it.  And if anyone takes offense at being a fast food restaurant,
then pick a nice swank eatery and re-identify yourself; it is intended for 
fun.

Do all baptists "dunk" or do some sprinkle or pour?

    
    you miss the point nancy.  it is not accidental ignorance rather
    purposeful ignorance concerning theology and doctrine and full
    understanding of scripture.  educated pastors are eschewed in cases. 
    
    even "common sense" is often at odds with scripture  as you are aware, I'm
    sure.  but you do make a good point.  our emphasis, in the south and
    other parts of the country, on common sense actually comes from a 
    formal "philosophy of common sense" developed by scottish theologians. 
    most folks don't know this and common sense itself has now become
    authoritarian, even at the expense of biblical values.
    
    i am a southerner in any way in which you would like to define it. 
    therefore, i am qualified to criticise and praise southern culture,
    including various Christian practices unique to the south.  i love the
    south but as far as i am concerned most baptists, methodists, pentecostals
    and others in the south are too proud of their independence and too
    influenced by cultural tradition rather than the broader Christian
    traditions and biblical knowledge/practice.  
    
    jeff  

    
    mark,  i would be surprised if any other baptist group aside from the
    Reformed Baptists would sprinkle or do anything else but dunk.
    
    jeff

    >SDAs are KFC ?????
    
    Thanks but no thanks.  I'll take Boston Chicken any day.  ;-)
    
    In Christ,
    Janet
    :-)

As I was about to enter, the only identifying factors in 'baptist church' 
is 'baptist' and 'church'.

'Church' implies that it is - at least nominally - a Christian congregation.

'Baptist' implies that it has a significant stance on baptism.  All baptist
churches I know of take this as 'dunk', as per the original baptist 
denomination.  However, there's always room for me to learn more... ;-)

I think that if we've seen anything in this string, it's that churches can 
take the name 'baptist', and adhere to a wide scope of doctrine beyond this...

								Andrew

 RE .17




 Yep.

    The information on where the Baptist church emerged is in there.
    
    :-)
    
    Mark - there are definitely doctrinal commonalities amongst all
    Baptists.  The differences are not doctrinal, they are as you stated
    flavor.
    
    We believe in salvation throught Christ.  That one must believe in
    their heart and confess with their mouth.  That it is more then a head
    knowledge, but a life application of receiving and walking in Christ
    via faith.
    
    We believe in the blood of Christ having paid for sins.
    
    We believe in the Resurrection and Return of the Lord again.
    
    We believe in FULL IMMERSION Baptism [but baptism isn't what saves].
    
    We believe the Bible to be the literal word of God and we belive the
    Word of God to be Jesus. :-)
    
    We believe in the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being One.
    
    Oh yeah, we believe in eternal security.
    
    
    I'm sure I'll think of more, but these are the biggies that come to
    mind.
    
    
    I don't think there's a Baptist in here that would argue with these.
    

    .26
    
    To add something else, while we have what is considered a foundation of
    Biblical truth - we realize that God works individually and each person
    is accountable to God himself for their walk and talk each day.
    
    In other words, in my church, as in your church, there is a list of
    standards for separation, but if my convictions are that dancing isn't
    harmful, then it's between me and God. :-)
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    What do Baptists believe with respect to predestination of the elect?
    
    >    We believe in FULL IMMERSION Baptism [but baptism isn't what saves].
    
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not
shall be damned.

    how do Baptists interpret this verse?
    
    >    Oh yeah, we believe in eternal security.
    
    This is the "P" in the TULIP of Calvinism.  What do Baptists think
    about these verses?
    
    Matthew 7:21-23: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter 
    into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who 
    is in heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not 
    prophesied in Thy name?  And in Thy name have cast out devils?  And in Thy 
    name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I 
    never knew you; depart from Me, yet that work iniquity."  

    Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, 
    is fit for the kingdom of God."  
    
Ephesians 5:3-5
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named
among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient:
but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man,
who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

II Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny
us:

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in
departing from the living God.

I Timothy 4:1
NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

II Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there
come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
perdition;

II Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered
unto them.

I Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who
prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    Mike, these things have been gone over extensively before.  I'd rather
    just find the pointer. [Sorry but weary of old debates]
    

	I guess my church is the "Blue Plate Diner", being a non-denominational
	go-where-the-Spirit-leads-you sort of church (sort of like the
	daily special ;-) ).

	(Actually, we follow a structure, but the body does seem to
	be evolving over time - Yikes, can we do that ?? ;-)  )

Boston Chicken if you prefer Janet.  I should have been a bit more sympathetic
to Tony, though, who prefers to remain at the salad bar.  ;-)

You know what would be helpful is a table of sorts like this:


                                        Baptists*
                          ABC      SBC      IB      RB      ??B

Dunking only               Y        Y        Y      N?        Y
OSAS                       Y        Y        Y      Y         Y
Trinity                    Y        Y        Y      Y         Y
Saved by grace only        Y        Y        Y      Y         Y
Hierarchy                  ?        Y        N      ?         ?
 whatever

   (* not valid data; example only)

    
    yes, Mike, i don't believe you want to get into this...really.  you
    simply don't stand a chance theologically...the reformers and
    subsequent theologians of reformed faith are awesome and spectacularly
    intelligent men of God.  they have no contemporaries except the likes
    of Sproul and Packer.
    
    jeff

      re: .31
    
      Thanks Mark!  Chicken tastes good, but I'll pass!
    
      re: .32
    
      "awesome and spectacularly intelligent men of God..."  Hmmmmm.
      God can be made perfect in weakness.  Mike, I'm not sure I'd care to
      debate this, but I wouldn't let Jeff's quote stop you!
    
                                                       Tony 

    RE:  .24 & .31
    
    Hi Mark & Tony,
    
    My dog and I think Boston Chicken is just terrific. And we both enjoy 
    a big salad every day.  We are equally at ease on either side of this
    fence.  ;^)
    
    >Janet,  Would you limit Mark 16:18 to liquid intake?
    
    Nope.  I have learned lately that we should never limit the Word in 
    any way!
    
    In Christ,
    Janet
    :-)
    

>    Mike, these things have been gone over extensively before.  I'd rather
>    just find the pointer. [Sorry but weary of old debates]
    
    so in other words, Calvin missed the boat by ignoring those verses!
    
    thanks,
    Mike

>    yes, Mike, i don't believe you want to get into this...really.  you
>    simply don't stand a chance theologically...the reformers and
>    subsequent theologians of reformed faith are awesome and spectacularly
>    intelligent men of God.  they have no contemporaries except the likes
>    of Sproul and Packer.
    
    Dearest Jeff, if they were/are so intelligent, why didn't they use the
    *ENTIRE* Bible for context in formulating their doctrines?
    
    Mike ;-)

    
    they did.  you don't understand calvinism.  i'd be careful to not put
    too much stock in Calvary as a source of theology, Mike.
    
    jeff

    Mike - yer just being a pinball game right now!
    
    :-)

    ...but Calvary is where it all begins and ends, folks.

    Cardinal Hosius (Catholic 1524), President of the Council of Trent:
    
    "Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut
    off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would
    swarm in greater numbers than all the reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud
    Opera, pages 112, 113).
    
    The "twelve hundred years" were the years preceding the Reformation in
    which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution
    thinkable.
    
    Sir Isaac Newton:
    
    "The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never
    symbolized with Rome."
    
    Mosheim (Lutheran):
    
    "Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, ther lay secreted in almost all
    the countries of Europe who adhered tenaciously to the principles of
    modern Dutch Baptists."
    
    Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian)
    
    "It must have already occurred to our readers that the Bapstist are the
    same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. 
    Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of
    Tertullian to the present time."
    
    Tertulian was born just fifty years after the death of the Apostle
    John.
    
    Baptists do not believe in Apostolic Succession.  The Apostolic office
    ceased with the death of the Apostles.  It is to His churches that He
    promised a continual existence from the time He organzied the firone
    during His earthly ministry.  He promised -
    
    Matthew 16:18 KJV
    I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
    it.
    
    Then, when He gave the great Commission, which tells what His chruches
    are to do, He promised -
    
    Matthew 28:20
    I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the age.
    
    This Commission -this work - was not given to the Apostles as
    individuals, but to them and others prsent intheir church capacity. 
    The Apostles and the others who heard Him give this Commission were
    soon dead - BUT, His Church has lived on through the ages, making
    disciples (gettings folks saved), baptizing them, teaching the truth -
    the doctrines - He committed to the Jerusalem Church.  These faithful
    churches have been blessed with His presence as they have traveled the
    Trail of Blood.
    
    This history shows how the Lord's promise to His churches has been
    fulfilled. Dr. Carroll [see below] shows that churches have been found
    ine very age which have taught the doctrines He committed unto them. 
    Dr. Carroll calls these doctrines the "marks" of the New Testament
    Churches.
    
    *Note:  Dr. Carroll, the author of this book, was born in the state of
    Arkansas, January 8, 1858 and died in Texas, January 1931.  His father
    a Baptist preacher, moved to Texas when he was six years old.  Dr.
    Carroll spent his life in study of Church History, as to which is the
    oldest Church and most like the churches of the New Testament.
    
    
    

>    ...but Calvary is where it all begins and ends, folks.

Hold on there.  Let me play.  Calvary is a place where and event took
place.  The Baptists can have John.  But I belong to the Church of "The
Nazarene."

ha ha ha ha ha

I stand amazed in the presence of Jesus the NAZARENE.

BTW, I was thinking about my restaurant analogy and I think the Pizzaria
Baptists work well.  There are so many different pizzarias dishing out
so many pizzas with different topics, and yet it's all pizza.  Let's see,
it is the food of the common man, a bit binding in the cheese, and despite
some predesitnationalist leanings - they deliver!  8^D

    Years I spent in vanity and pride
    caring not my Lord was crucified
    knowing not it was for me he died
    At Calvary
    
    Mercy there was great and grace was free
    pardon there was multiplied to me
    there my burdened soul found liberty
    At Calvary
    
    

Jordan river, chilly and cold
Chills the body but not the soul.

Its what popped to mind when I tried to think of a Baptist song.

I suppose there are plenty of "water" songs.  Any about dunking?

    Well you have...
    
    There is a River
    
    and
    
    I Got a River of Life

    >Jordan river, chilly and cold
    >Chills the body but not the soul.
    
    >Its what popped to mind when I tried to think of a Baptist song.
    
    What song is this line from (maybe a 3rd verse)?  Maybe it depends
    which Baptist church you go to, but I can't recall ever hearing this.
    However, I must admit that I prefer praise coruses over the hymnal.
    
    Bing

>    >Jordan river, chilly and cold
>    >Chills the body but not the soul.
>    
>    >Its what popped to mind when I tried to think of a Baptist song.
>    
>    What song is this line from (maybe a 3rd verse)?  Maybe it depends
>    which Baptist church you go to, but I can't recall ever hearing this.
>    However, I must admit that I prefer praise coruses over the hymnal.

It's a spiritual, as in "negro spiritual" (can I say that these days?) 
song.    

On the album I have, it sings this verse and then goes into ...
"everytime I feel the Spirit moving in my heart, I will pray!"

    >	Jordan river, chilly and cold
    >	Chills the body but not the soul.
    
    It comes from "Michael row the boat ashore" - even an Anglican Brit
    knows that ;-)
    
    God bless,				Richard.

    >    It comes from "Michael row the boat ashore" - even an Anglican Brit
    >    knows that ;-)
    
    
    ....and a Brit called Michael Roe knows it even more profoundly!
    
    
    Wishing one and all a joyful Christmas and spirit-filled 1995
    
    Mike (write_once-in-a-while_read_many)

    8*)   Oh the joys of being famous!
    
    Pam

    >    It comes from "Michael row the boat ashore" - even an Anglican Brit
    >    knows that ;-)

I take it that the winkie means you're not serious.
Michael row the boat ashore is a relatively slow song.
The other song is upbeat and moves right along.  I think
it is part of the song that refrains, "everytime I feel
the Spirit moving in my heart, I will pray!"

MM