Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Desensitization!

    Kind of like the people of Israel...even after they saw the miracles?!!

         Could be a cultural problem  - after one of the events you mention 
         was in the States, and the other in the UK - need I say more?
         
         Since the beginning of this year there have been several 
         nationwide outreach initiatives, including the intended mailing to 
         every single household in the UK of a superbly and beautifully 
         produced booklet especially written by Reinhart Bhonker (pardon my 
         spelling!). The organisers anticipated a phenomenal response, 
         resulting in a dramatic increase in church attendance all over the 
         country as enquirers were fed into local churches in their area. 
         Apart from being dogged by major distribution problems, it just 
         didn't happen.
         
         Here in Reading, just 40 miles west of London, the latest 
         initiative is about to get underway. Called "Thames Valley Alive", 
         this is a two week intensive mission in the Reading and 
         surrounding locality, involving almost every church of every 
         denomination in a unified push of the Gospel, presented in many 
         different ways to appeal to different tastes. So there will be 
         events (meetings/rallies/etc - whatever you wish to call them!) 
         for Youth; Parents; people with sporting interests; the musically 
         inclined; the mentally disabled; Families; etc etc. It will be 
         interesting to see whether this mission which will be much more 
         intensely focussed, will have a significant impact.
         
         I for one, pray that it will !!
         
         Perhaps you would pray with us too.
         
         Paul

    It has troubled me recently that there seems to be a lack of "sound
    conversions" (as the primitive methodists put it). I have yet to see
    anyone weep into the kingdom of God, I have yet to see anyone so
    disturbed by the reality of hell that they cry out to God without
    holding back any emotion for salvation. The gospel that is preached
    today is a very cosy gospel directed more at "How you can be blessed by
    God" rather than "You are a sinner, destined for hell - but Jesus loves
    you and has paid that price for you". Maybe these words aren't coming
    over right, it's hard to think straight in the middle of the office,
    but lets be honest, when did any of you last see someone weeping under
    the conviction of God or screaming out to God for salvation because of
    the reality of hell. I've read accounts of Wesley, Whitfield and even
    from my pastors younger days in London experiencing the above and I
    believe this is the key to a "sound conversion". 
    
    I think Nancy hit the nail on the head - desensitazation - people are
    more reserved, and have many masks of self-image which are becomming
    more and more inpenetrable. I believe we need to pray more for the
    Spirit of God to break into peoples lives, to really get behind those
    masks. I aalso believe we need to pray more for the Holy Spirit to do
    that in ourselves - to get behind our masks and cause us to stand naked
    before God, then we may seea more effective church.
    
    Here endeth Bens sermon 

"Too many people have been innoculated with a mild case of Christianity,
making them immune to the real thing."

Paul

 There you go..

Probably comes from listening to sermonettes.

(Makes Christianettes.)

Era is also a factor.  

Billy Sunday/USA/early 1900
Billy Graham/UK/1990s

Wesley held great revivals in England in the 1800s
A great revival also swept America not long after.

Paul's paraphase in .5 is correct.  But more than this, there are
also many competing messages.  In America, the three religions aren't
Lutheran, Quaker, and Presbyterian, nor Protestant, Catholic, and Jew;
it is more like Christian, non- (or pseudo-) Christian, and anti-Christian.

These crusades are looking for revival, a term more commonly used to
mean a wave of evangelism causing change in a large number of people
turning to God.  It is also a term for people who have been yearning
for the Holy Spirit to revive their own spirit - renewing their "first
love."

What do you think it takes for revival to be seen in your area?
What do you think it takes?

Mark

	If you think about it, Jack is right when he said it ain't the Spirit's
fault, which only can mean it is the humans, or us. And in all the ways
mentioned in here after .0 make perfect sense. But part of it is also how and
who delivers the message. How many sports hero's of the past, who have come to
the Lord, have had a GREAT impact on others when they speak? I don't think
people see them as the same type of preacher that a Billy Graham is seen as.
This other person was something many could identify with, and for them it gives
a new outlook on it all and also makes them more apt to be open to LISTEN.
Billy Graham is viewed by many as mainstream Christianity, and see nothing in
common with that, and just tune him out. They BOTH could give the identical 
message, but the sports hero could be the one who would get through one group, 
and maybe Billy would get through to another group. To me this tells me that not
just we as Christians, but the world as a whole need to see each other as 
individuals, and not as groupings. In other words, if 2 people can deliver the 
same message, but one person is tuned out because they are associated with 
<insert group>, then people as a whole could and probably will lose very
important messages from God. It also shows me how versitile God can be to
correct this human flaw, by offering many different people, who others can
identify with, as preachers to lead others to the Lord.



Glen

    >What does it take?
    
    2 Chronicles 7:14, "and My people who are called by My name humble 
    themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked
    ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal
    their land."
    
    I believe a big part of the problem is because Christians are not
    experiencing the grace of God in their lives.  I think the reason that
    they're not experiencing it, is because they have not come to a place of
    brokeness.  I have heard it said that the only people who will receive
    God's grace, are those who know they need it.  We have come to the
    end of ourselves and realize that there is NOTHING that we can do apart
    from God.  There is Nothing that we can do in our flesh that will
    please God (Rom 8:8).
    
    I was on a men's weekend a little over a week ago, where men truly
    allowed God to break them.  They let go of bitterness and other sin
    that they had been holding on to.  Many of them experienced incredible
    release.  Men were crying because they experienced how much God loves
    them.  They were crying because they realized they didn't have to carry
    a lot of the junk they were carrying with them.  They were able to
    throw away their masks and to know an unconditional love in the midst
    of vulnerability.
    
    I believe that we may be in the first stages of revival in our land. 
    Revival has got to start in each of our hearts.  We need to stop just
    doing good things, and come back to our first love (Rev 2:2-4).  We
    need to abide in Christ (John 15:5) and rest in Him (Matt 11:28-30). 
    We need to experience His love for us and allow Him to love other
    through us.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    

      Hi,
    
        Not to imply that a speech before thousands cannot have
        effect, I wonder if the ratio of speaker to listeners
        can be significant.  Maybe this baseball player was
        speaking to very few people at a time and his ministry
        very often was 1-1.  Maybe there was a personalness to
        it that can be lacking when one person is speaking to
        tens of thousands.
    
        Ben, I feel that the main motivation as Paul would put
        it is, "To them who are perishing, the message of the
        cross is foolishness, but to us who are being saved, it
        is the power of God unto salvation" and also (paraphrase)
        "I don't want to know anything among you save Jesus Christ
        and Him crucified."  I'm not implying that there isn't a
        role in fear as a motivator, but painting a picture of the
        cross ought to be the primary emphasis I believe.
    
        Personally, I have a feeling that when Paul did his Phillipians
        2:3-8 sermon, that he could paint a picture of God's condescending
        love, and could do so for HOURS.  I believe that any heart 
        ready to respond by faith to a revelation of the cross would
        just be a flood of tears after hearing Paul preach the gospel.
    
        In short, people don't paint the picture like Paul did.  Faith
        works by love and faith isn't working that much because the
        love revealed (from which it can work by) is far short of what
        it could be.
    
        Our painting of the cross of Christ is pathetic.
    
        In my own life, I can attest to the most motivated I have been
        to be having listened to a revelation of God's love for me so
        poignant than what I typically hear (and yet so far short of
        what I believe Paul painted) that the my heart was softened
        and the tears came.
    
        I need someone to show me the cross.  
    
                                                     Tony 

      Hi Glen,
    
        Just want to say I appreciated your reply my friend!
    
                                               God Bless,
    
                                               Tony

.10  Bing

Exactly. 

>We need to stop *just* doing good things, and come back to our 
>first love (Rev 2:2-4).

People are not coming to God because they "don't need God."  God,
for many people, is a smorgasborg of make-your-own-deity (when 
they have a God), or unnecessary or unknown (when they don't).
This is especially poignant in a society that has redefined what
sin is, and what Christianity is (or should be).  People have 
filtered the Bible instead of allowing the Bible to filter them.

But... I also agree with you, Bing, that we are at the beginning
of revival.  There are also many who have grown up without God and
simply don't know Him; people who are depraved, but whose conscience
is not seared.  One such man gave his heart to God eight days ago.
He responded to the call of the Holy Spirit - without an altar call.
(There's some discussion about altar calls, but that's another note.)

Joshua said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods 
which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, 
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:"

The gods of your fathers, the gods of tradition, the gods of one's own
making, -- or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell, adopting
the worldliness around you.  Worse than these choices, the Israelites
themselves made a golden calf and then said, "this is YHWH."  And
some people today profane God's name by defining their God as YHWH
yet attribute the name to something very different.

Joshua went on to declare: "but as for me and my house, we will serve 
the LORD."

Mark

 I wonder how much of it (conversions) is emotionalism.  It can be seen
 in services with thousands, and it can be seen when sharing Christ in
 a one-on-one enviorment.  One hears the message and it strikes an emotional
 chord..people respond to their emotions and "go forward".

 Jesus told us to be fishers of men (Matt 4:19).  Sometimes the hook is 
 dropped and no one takes it..sometimes the hook is taken, the fish is
 tossed in the net, but the net has holes in it and it falls out.  Liken
 the church to the net.  The church needs to repair the holes in the net,
 and be sure that those who respond to the message do not fall through the
 net for whatever reason.  Each individual is unique, and requires individual
 follow-up specific to that individual.

 We've seen it many times in our church..we go visit, souls are saved and yet
 somehow they fall through.  Some need weeks of follow-up and they still
 fall through (or swim out of) the net.  Some raise their heads after praying
 for Christ to save them and they are ready to serve.  


 What's the difference between 1900's and today? Not sure, but I'd suspect
 its in the training of the workers, and the follow-up they perform.



Jim

    Most of the problem for this problem as you've described as "falling
    through the net" is due to lack of discipleship.
    
    

>What's the difference between 1900's and today?

We had a clearer picture of right and wrong, righteousness and sin.
Today, these definitions have been challenged, some (perhaps) rightly;
many (lamentably) wrongly.  Without the basis of understanding (terms),
there can be no (useful) communication.  Without an absolute authority
to make definition, there is no definition... and chaos and confusion
reign, leaving people to sift through the din.
MM

    .16
    
    The difference is most churches cannot be distinguished as different
    than the world.

    >problem for this problem
    
    This made me think of a paragraph in Lifetime Guarantee, that was
    attributed to a preacher that Bill Gilham had heard.
    
    "Your problem is that you don't know what your problem is.  You think
    your problem is your problem, but that's not the problem at all.  Your
    problem is not your problem, and that's your main problem".  8^)
    
    BTW, the next paragraph says that, "The problem is that you have yet to 
    discover that the Christian life is not difficult to live--it's IMPOSSIBLE 
    to live!  There it is in a nutshell.  God never intended that you be
    able to live the Christian life at all.  THe harder you try to live
    your life for God, the more frustrated you'll become.  But hold the phone! 
    That is precisely the position of weakness and desperation from which
    the Holy Spirit wants to teach you the reason Jesus came into you. 
    Have you ever questioned why He didn't come under you, over you, behind
    you, alongside you, or in front of you?  Jesus is the only one who ever
    HAS lived the Christian life, and He's the only one who CAN live it
    today--through you!  That's why God can offer a lifetime guarantee of
    abundant living--and why most believers have yet to experience it."
    
    
    Love in Him, 
    
    Bing

Lovely, Bing.  Thanks.

Paul

    What is it about your church that makes it different than the world? 
    Why would I attend your church?  
    

    Bing, very profound.

	Thanks Tony

Ah, Bing.  Touching on one of my favorite themes: paradox.  
Strength in weakness.  

Mark

    1900's
    
    1990's
    
    
    There you go.  I think this is the reason.  The US in 1990's is a
    nation so caught up in individual "freedoms" (without restraint or
    responsibility), as well as the fact that Bible believing Christians
    are a distinct minority these days, sort of dull the message.  Add to
    it a public who has been blasted with Jimmy Swaggart's misdeeds and
    that one guy who said God was going to take him if he didn't come up
    with x-millions of dollars, and the Bakker incidents...etc.  You get a
    much more cautious public, and where there is caution, there is also
    restraint (spiritually....not wanting to go 'all out' in fear that you
    will be later duped by said paster/speaker).
    
    
    -steve

 But that was not the issue (Bakker, Swaggart, et al) the issue was that
 something in the message delivered by Doctor Graham (or anyone for that
 matter) clearly touched them somehow, but something happened that they
 lost it.  And I believe it was in the area of follow up and discipleship.

 Its one thing to be caught up in the emotion of the invitation..its quite
 another to go back to one's worldly pursuits..family, work, neighbors, etc,
 where you come back and tell them "I've been born again".




Jim

    I disagree with .24  
    If the US was consumed with freedoms, we would probably be 
    better off.  I see it as more the pursuit of rights without 
    responsibilities or of Big Government taking care of me 'cause 
    I can't do it myself.  This actually results in fewer freedoms 
    and, in the end, less rights.  We've given them all away.
    
    Otto

    Probably under the heading of stranger than fiction, I read the 
    following story which I will paraphrase.  A nineteenth-century Sunday 
    school teacher named Kimball led a Boston shoe clerk named Dwight Moody 
    to Christ.  Moody, the leader that he was, had great influence and 
    impact on a young evangelist named Frederick B. Meyer.  Meyer began to 
    preach on college campuses and in the process a man named J. Wilbur 
    Chapman was converted.  Chapman became involved in the YMCA and 
    arranged for a former baseball player, Billy Sunday, to come to 
    Charlotte, North Carolina, for a revival.  As a result of that revival 
    the community leaders planned another revival and brought Mordecai Hamm 
    to preach.  Billy Graham gave his life to the Lord in that crusade.
    
    I have not had the privilege to read any of Billy Sunday's sermons but 
    I have been involved in the Atlanta Billy Graham Crusade for almost the 
    past year.  A lot of the problems pointed out here are exactly what I 
    have heard in the training seminars and conferences.  Some of the 
    following are my observations and some are from the Crusade leadership 
    (marked by *).
    
    1. Christianity, or religion in general for that matter, has become a 
    commodity not a lifestyle.  It is something you have, not something you 
    are.  It is add-on, after-market equipment that can be swapped out and 
    upgraded as the user wishes.  "If I don't like this church, I go down 
    the road.  If this religion makes me uncomfortable, I'll find one that 
    doesn't."
    
    2. *The sermon and invitation are only 10% of the crusade process.  The 
    remaining 90% is made up of the preparation and follow-up.  Both of 
    these are left to the local church.  85% of the unsaved people who 
    attend a Billy Graham Crusade are invited by a friend.  Unless the 
    process was drastically changed or the statistic terribly flawed, 
    approximately 64 of the 75 prospects in .0 were brought by or came as a 
    result of members of his church. The distribution process involves 
    sorting the inquirers names on three categories:
    
       	    1)   Direct affiliation - If the inquirer in filling out the 
       	         card indicates the particular church who brought him then 
       	         his name is passed to that church.  This makes up 85% of 
       	         the distribution.
    
       	    2)   Denominational preference - If the inquirer has not 
       	         indicated a particular church but has indicated a prior 
       	         denominational affiliation then his name is passed to a 
       	         church of that denomination within his geography.
    
       	    3)   Geography - Barring all other qualifiers the inquirers 
       	         name is put in a pot of all other names in their geography 
       	         and distributed among participating churches evenly.
    
    The followup process is quite involved and thorough if it is executed 
    properly.  The paid staff of the Billy Graham Crusade are in place for 
    one year prior to and one year after the crusade to assist and facilitate 
    in the preparation and followup.
    
    3. *Scripture about the enemy stealing the word that is sown is 
    painfully true during a crusade.  There are pseudo-Christian and 
    non-Christian cults who target the crusades.  When the cars begin 
    leaving they wait to see which ones are left, these are most likely to 
    be the inquirer who has come forward.  Seemingly official literature is 
    left on the vehicle by the cults to draw the spiritually sensitive but 
    naive believer away from the truth he has just heard.
    
    4. The gospel has been watered down to make it more palatable.  "God 
    loves everybody and personal holiness is an unattainable dream so just 
    say yes to Jesus and the world will be rosey."  I have a cartoon on
    which one man is obviously witnessing to another on the livingroom
    sofa.  The witnessee is speaking and the caption reads, "Now let me get
    this straight, I get eternal life AND the steak knives?"  Below is the 
    personal witnessing outline of the gospel presentation used by The Billy 
    Graham Association and Evangelism Explosion III International.
    
    Billy Graham:
    
       God's Plan. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Peace and Life
    
       Our Problem . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Separation
          (Religion, good works, morality and philosophy fall short)
    
       God's Remedy. . . . . . . . . . . . . .The Cross
    
       Our Response. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Receive Christ
          (This includes repentance and reception by faith)
    
    EE III: (excerpt of gospel portion only)
    
       1. Grace
       	    - Heaven is a free gift
       	    - It can not be earned or deserved
    
       2. Man
       	    - Is a sinner and cannot save himself
    
       3. God
       	    - Is merciful and does not want to punish us
       	    - Is just and therefore must punish sin
    
       4. Jesus Christ
       	    - Is the infinite God-man
       	    - Died on the cross to pay for our sins and to purchase a place
       	    for us in heaven which he offers as a free gift
    
    This gift is received by:
    
       5. Faith
       	    - Saving faith is not intellectual assent
       	    - Saving faith is not temporal faith
       	    - Saving faith is trusting in Jesus Christ and Him alone for
       	    eternal life
    
       6. Clarification of commitment
       	    - Transfer trust from self to Christ
       	    - Receive the resurrected and living Christ
       	    - Receive Jesus as Savior
       	    - Receive Jesus as Lord
       	    - Repent
    
                                          

RE: .27


	Do you think it's wrong for someone to go to a church that best suits
their needs?


Glen

 Depends on how you define "suits their needs".  Lots of folks will go 
 to a church that doesn't talk about sin, hell and salvation.  Suits 
 their earthly needs, makes them feel "good about themselves", but
 will also send them down the trail to a dreadful eternity.




Jim

    Glen,
    
    I would have to echo Jim's response.  When we first moved to Atlanta we
    looked for a new church (shopped, you might say).  Our previous pastor
    had recommended a church and we tried it for a month or so and realized
    that the balance of activities for adults and children were not
    conducive to the spiritual growth of the entire family.  There was a
    great focus on the adult but the children were almost considered a
    nuisance.  We went to an AG church near our home and found that it was
    a new work in development.  Again there was a lack of programs for the
    children.  We kept looking until we found "our church".  However, now
    that we are there we are committed.  There have been some serious riffs
    go through the church.  A lot of people have bolted and headed for
    other pastures.
    
    The kind of attitude I'm talking about is one that says, "I've put my
    money in the plate, now entertain me."  The tithe and offering becomes
    the price of admission and the pastor competes with all the other
    amusements of the world.  And if I don't feel good about myself when I
    leave then I'll go somewhere else.  Sorry Charlie, sometimes sin needs
    to be exposed and sometimes it's a painful process.  Sometimes the
    spiritual lessons that we need to learn are not entirely pleasant.
    
    There are 'needs' that people have, individually and collectively, and
    different churches are established by God to meet different needs. 
    Whether or not the church publishes or even understands it God has
    given them a vision.  The most effective churches have been able to
    articulate that vision and move toward it to the exclusion of all
    distractions.  The local assembly can not be all things to all men and
    do it effectively.
    
    I hope this answers your question without raising ten more but if I
    have then feel free to ask either here or e-mail and I will be happy to
    try and answer.
    
    Kent
    

    re: .26
    
    You actually agreed with me in part, then.  8^)

	Jim, Kent, thanks for the replies. Jim, I'm talking more in line with
what Kent was talking about. I do believe that there are people who will go to
a church that does not talk about sin, but I was not referring to that. And
Kent, you did answer the questions without raising 10 more. Me not ask
questions? Now there is a first! heh heh...



Glen

    Thames Valley Alive initiative in the Reading, England area, is now 
    nearing its climax, following last weeks events held simultaneously in
    various localities. For instance, at Pangbourne College, an exclusive
    private secondary school, where Riding Lights Theatre Company and Canon
    Michael Green took part to a capacity crowd, at least 4 people made a
    comittment.
    
    This week sees 4 main events held at a large sports centre in Reading
    itself. Last night's was aimed at the the younger end of the populace
    with music from The Funky Beehive, acting from Riding Lights, and an
    excellent "preach" from Rev Steve Chalke. Again it was packed out, I'm
    not very good at numbers but at a wild guess I'd say there were about
    1500, maybe more there.
    
    Tonight, and for the next three nights I am involved, as part of the
    orchestra, so I may post more updates as I get time.
    
    Paul

See 6.853, for Paul unable to play as planned.  Prayers appreciated both 
for Paul and for the crusade.

								Andrew