Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I agree that she needs to tell her husband.  Its very hard to fess up
    to something like that, but it sounds like she just wants people to
    bail her out and never take any responsibility for her actions.  I
    agree that it sounds like if everyone keeps getting her out of the same
    mess over and over again, she'll never stop getting into the
    situations.  She actually left that church?  She may be afraid to tell
    her husband what she's done, but take it from me that telling the truth
    is better in the long run.   Also sounds like she just wants to hear
    that its ok, so that she'll feel better about doing it.  I wouldn't
    give her the money, but might tell her that if she was so afraid of
    confronting her husband that I would go along with her if she wanted,
    and help them plan a budget.
    
    Just my opinion.  
    

    Pam,
    
    Your thinking on this is correct.   Don't bail her out.  
    
    Love,
    Nancy

 What Nancy said..sounds like something serious going on, IMO.





Jim

    My girlfriend has a daughter who, after leaving home at 17, decided she
    really did need mom after all...to bail her out!  Mom and dad have both
    decided to "teach the kid to fish" instead of throwing her the fish. 
    However, now their well-meaning Christian friends are giving the girl
    handouts in the name of Christ. How does one stop it?  My suggestion to
    the SIL is if she can afford the $$ tell her she can have it, but she
    has to be honest with her husband or by taking that $$ it gives the SIL
    the right to tell the husband she took it.  If your SIL can't afford to
    give it then there is no issue here - just tell her NO.  Sometimes we
    have to treat adults like adults and expect them to act like adults. 
    This may be too harsh, but I really get peeved when people keep giving
    /taking without learning what comes along with it.
    
    -sandy
    

    To bail folks out of their self-created problems such as this where
    they have sinned in the process = "enabling".
    
    

    I've been through a similar situation (not directly, but a family
    member).  There is no simple solution, nor any good way out.  All you
    can do is base your decision on the facts of the situation, and what
    you believe to be right in the big picture.
    
    If you find yourself continually bailing this person out, then giving
    more money will not likely help the situation.  Be warned that failure
    to help (after helping in the past) may bring about bitterness towards
    you, regardless of how much help given in the past.
    
    Just a few thoughts, and not really much help I know.
    
    -steve

	My parents always made us bail ourselves out, as they wanted us to
learn from our mistakes. Unless it was an extreme emergency (like when my
sister seperated from her husband, but lived in Georgia, my parents flew her
and her kid up here, which in the end it worked out great as my sister did get
back with her husband) they say handle it yourself. In the long run it has
worked out better, as we think about going into something much more now than we
would if there was someone to bail us out. I think the suggestion of only
giving her the money if she confesses to her husband is the only way it should
be handled.


Glen

 I would go along with giving her the money if she confesses to her husband,
 but NO WAY should it come from the Pastor.




 (or did I misunderstand?)



JIm

    Thanks for all of the replies.  I have decided not to lend any
    money and to suggest that my SIL do the same unless she does
    confess to her husband.  I want to be supportive but do not,
    as Nancy says, enable the problem she has budgeting her money.
    
    the Pastor would not be involved in this.  The lady was
    asking that the church give her the money that she would
    later pay back.  The Pastor said, "No, you have to live 
    with the decisions you have made and face the music." Or
    something of that sort and yes she has decided to leave
    that church.
    
    Please pray for her that she would "come clean" and her 
    husband understand and that the Lord would lead them\
    in the right direction together and help them handle
    their money situation in a manner that is acceptable toHim.
    
    Thanks everyone,
    Pam

I am going to throw in my thoughts for considerations.

My wife has the problem of "manic-depressive psychosis", a kind of chemical
imbalance.  Whe she gets high, spending money without control is one of the
major sympton.  Before we got married when she was staying in my now SIL's
house, my SIL has to take away all her money, credit cards etc. so that she does
not have anything in hand to spend.

What I am saying is she may have much deeper and uncontrollable problem than a
good budget plan. I am wondering why she is not going for counselling with her
husband.  She seems to ask people to bail her out everything other than just 
money and she has the habbit of lying.

Stop bailing her out and set boundary may be the way to push her back to deal
with her real problem.  But I think at the same time she really needs help to
identify and deal with the real problem.  Christian counselling or small support
group for her may be more important.  And last but the foremost of course is 
to pray for her.

Wally

Re: .10  (Wally)

>My wife has the problem of "manic-depressive psychosis", a kind of chemical
>imbalance.  Whe she gets high, spending money without control is one of the
>major sympton

This is the kind of thinking that originates with humanists who believe that
everything can be explained by the characteristics of the material universe,
that consequently humankind evolved from non-living matter (chemicals), and so
therefore all problems in humans can be reduced to chemical explanations (in
this case, "chemical imbalance"). 

For the humanist, all behavior is attributed to the flesh, so there is no 
such thing as sin -- just chemicals that can be treated with anti-chemicals
to produce the desired effect.

I know of no chemical reaction that has the coded property "spending money
without control", and I seriously doubt that any psychiatrist could come up
with one, either.

To be sure, chemicals affect our moods and emotional temperament, and it is
quite possible that our moods and emotional temperament affect our chemicals,
too.  But regardless of the weaknesses of our corrupt flesh, there is no excuse
for sin. 

>What I am saying is she may have much deeper and uncontrollable problem than a
>good budget plan. 

The root of the problem must be a spiritual one, then.  Regardless of our
chemicals, self-control is necessary to not allow the flesh free reign over 
our lives.  Chemicals do not decide "I will buy this item", to reduce our
accountability for responsible money management, any more than chemicals in
Eve decided "I will eat this fruit", regardless of how "good...pleasing...
desirable" (Gen 3:6) it looked to her.  Otherwise there would be no sin and
we would be forced to conclude that Christ died in vain.  

The root solution must be a spiritual one, then, too.  Whatever you do, don't
go the superficial route of blaming and treating flesh (chemicals) as the 
root problem, before you have dealt with the spiritual issue.  Such would
not be better than taking the superficial route of satisfying the desires of
the flesh (handing out money). 

Some food for thought:  How many physicians and disaster-relief agencies would
it have taken to relieve Job of his suffering?  And this man was righteous,
whereas the woman as described in the base of this note is not. 

	Garth, I can't believe you wrote that. I know a friend of mine that
went overboard on religion, because of a chemical imbalance. The imbalance
causes one to <insert act>. It can be anything. In the noter who you addressed
case, it was an uncontrolable urge to spend. In my friends case it was
overboard on religion. Others it could be anything. The way my friend explained
it to me until the thirst is quenched, then they need to keep doing whatever it
is to satisfy their thirst. Since he has been on medication, he has really done
well. He now has a well balance of God, who is still very important in his
life, and he has involved his wife in with it as well. A MUCH happier human
being is he, and his wife is much happier as well. Is this humanism? No, it's
reality. Could it be that God helped us find this stuff out and gave us the
means to help people like this? That's my belief. 



Glen

    Garth,
    
    I pray you never have/know a child with ADD!!!
    
    -s
    
    

    This brings up an interesting topic.  The idea that some ailments are
    of the flesh and some are of spiritual matter.  It is obvious that the 
    man at the Gadarenes did not have Attention Deficit Disorder.  He was
    posessed by many demons.  Yet a man with the palsy was cured but was
    not posessed.  Also the lepers and the blind were not posessed but
    the woman with a lifetime of bleeding was posessed (Who touched my
    garment??)  At least I believe she was posessed.
    
    Not to digress but suffice to say that my belief that alcoholics,
    gamblers, and money spenders DO NOT have a physical ailment.  These
    types of things are addictions, pure and simple.  I think there can be
    a place for twelve step programs; but overall, I believe these these 
    types of things have sin as a root cause.  Hey, there are things I need 
    to flee from also.  I cast no judgements on this woman.
    
    If you see her soon; explain to her that these are exhortations made to 
    build her character, not judgements.  She will never be cured from this
    addiction or habit until she admits to herself that her impulses need
    to be dealt with.  Just like a newly saved individual admits their need
    for reconciliation with God through the cross.  Without it, there is no
    hope.
    
    You may also want to suggest she go back to her former church and
    reconcile with her Pastor...that is if that incident was the only thing
    that made her leave.  She may also want to use the pastor as a mediator
    in this whole thing.   It may help both she and the husband to better
    communicate.
    
    Bottom line, if she doesn't admit to herself she is undisciplined in
    this area, she will continue down the slippery slope and her life will
    completely fall apart.
    
    In Christ,
    
    -Jack 

    Actually there is a lot of merit in what Garth wrote.  We've gotten
    into the habit of shifting blame in this country and I believe it boils
    down "childhood".
    
    We now blame our childhood for everything.  And if we aren't blaming
    someone else, then we're taking on someone elses sin and carrying too
    much on our shoulders.
    
    Accountability is paramount in our Christian walk.  If we have a sin
    problem then let's look at the sin and not blame someone else for *our*
    behavior.  If you feel oppression, look for the cause.  It just maybe
    that while you aren't in sin, you are carrying a load that is not your
    own.
    
    Accountability is paramount in the world as well.  Why?  Because while
    we continue to look for chemical imbalances, abusive childhoods, there
    are a whole host of people reeking violence on our nation.
    
    The Menendez brothers come to mind here.  As well as the thousands of
    gangs across the nation.  Their homes are broken, therefore they break
    their hostility out on everyone else.
    
    My Pastor says that adversity reveals who a person is, not makes them
    who they are.  I think I agree.
    
    And I also tell my children, "Good character= When everyone else does
    wrong, you do right."
    
    

    I also think compulsions are of a spiritual nature, especially when
    they lead to things mentioned by the base-noter (lying, avoidance,
    causing trouble in a relationship).  The great deceiver uses these
    things to ruin lives.
    
    Food for thought, anyway.
    
    
    -steve

Re: .15  (Nancy)
    
>    My Pastor says that adversity reveals who a person is, not makes them
>    who they are.  I think I agree.
    
I know I agree.

| <<< Note 541.15 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>



| We now blame our childhood for everything.  And if we aren't blaming someone 
| else, then we're taking on someone elses sin and carrying too much on our 
| shoulders. Accountability is paramount in our Christian walk.  If we have a 
| sin problem then let's look at the sin and not blame someone else for *our*
| behavior.  

	Nancy, what you say makes absolute sense. Let's not blame someone else
for the problems we have caused. But let's not discount something that is the
root of the problem because it is physical. We should be looking for the truth
to everything. If the truth is that a chemical imbalance is causing someone to
do something out of the ordinary (remember, it does not mean they are sinning),
then call it just that. If someone lies because they are afraid of facing the
truth, then call it as that. Take responsibility for things we have done, but
look for the root cause(s). 



Glen

    I remember James Dobson talking about his mom having a chemical
    imbalance, after she had gone through menopause.  I don't remember all
    of the details, but I do know that he said that once she started taking
    estrogen, that he condition cleared up.
    
    I agree that too often today, doctors try to find a physical problem,
    where the problem may not be physical at all.  On the other hand, there
    ARE cases where chemical imbalances can cause/contribute to irrational
    thinking/behavior.  I would think that those with first hand knowledge
    of the situation would be able to best determine what the problem is.  
    
    Love in Christ,     
    
    Bing

    I agree with Bing, everything in balance.  Today's society is on a
    perpetual dysfunctional witch hunt, but in the case of menopause (or
    even PMS), the chemical imbalance is real.
    
    Mike

      Hi,
    
        Not to discount the extra 'pull' caused by a chemical imbalance,
        but would not chemicals be part of the flesh and does not the
        word say that the flesh can be crucified, that if we walk in 
        the Spirit we won't obey the lusts of the flesh, and that where
        sin abounds grace does much more abound?
    
        To blame the flesh for the cause of temptation is entirely
        scriptural.  BUT, to then say the temptation to resist is
        impossible because it resides in the flesh is entirely
        unscriptural.  Paul consistently points to the flesh as the main
        source of pull to sin and instead of saying its impossible to
        resist, he points to a greater pull than the flesh, i.e. "the
        love of Christ constraineth [motivates] us."
    
        I do believe in balance though.  After all, with imperfect faith,
        we are not fully connected to the source of grace.
    
                                                        Tony

I have not read this note, so some of this might have already been said...

I think that there are several sources of behavioral problems.

1)  Nature

	We have all been created wonderfully unique.  But, it's still a mystery
	to me just how much of "who I am" is controlled by these inborn tend-
	encies, and how much comes from #2 below.

	The other essential part of our nature is, sin.  We are all born sin-
	ners, and we "go astray" from birth.  We sin because we are sinners.
	It's a curse that has passed on all mankind because of Adam's sin, and
	only Christ can break the curse, freeing us from the penalty and the
	slavery of sin.

2)  Conditioning

	This is simply the fact that all of us, throughout our lives, have 
	practiced certain behaviors, and ways to react to stress, etc., some
	of which being based on our natural tendencies/weaknesses/strengths.
	The biblical answer being: take off the "old man" (also called the 
	flesh) who is corrupt and sinful; and put on the "new man" who has 
	been created by God in true holiness.

	Some would call this process sanctification, but regardless of what
	term you use to describe it; it is the process by which God, via
	the Holy Spirit and His Word being applied to our lives, cleanses us
	from the old man. The end result being perfection, ie being like 
	Jesus (whether you believe perfection comes when Jesus returns, or 
	before that, is irrelevant, since the end result is the same).

	The problem with conditioning is that it is based on habit.  Habits
	are things, good or bad, that have become "second nature".  In other
	words, they are not part of our natural make-up, but they have become
	so practiced that they appear to be totally "natural", even though 
	they are learned behaviors.  They have become so ingrained, that we 
	need no concious thought to react/behave as we do.

	This is where the behaviorists are right.  Unfortunately, they make
	a lot of other mistakes, because their basic presuppositions are de-
	void of God and faith.  They assume that the proper way to change the
	person is re-conditioning, but they go about it by humanistic means,
	and with humanistic goals.

	The believer is convicted by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, then
	empowered by God's grace to take off the old man and to put on the new
	man.  Jay Adams calls this dehabituation/rehabituation.  It is not
	reconditioning, because reconditioning is changing habit patterns in
	the old, unregenerated, man.  What we are doing is learning how to walk
	in the ways of the new man whom God created (past tense).  God sees 
	the work finished, we are still in the process.  The old man, having
	been crucified with Christ and buried in baptism, no longer has dom-
	inion, but his habits must be replaced by those of the new.

3)  Physical

	This would be chemical imbalances that can be healed, or treated.  The
	imbalance will tend to influence our moods.  The behavioral problems
	come because bad moods tend to encourage bad/selfish behavior.  One
	other cause would be a trauma (physical) of some sort, like a head
	injury.

	Extreme cases may produce hallucinations, both auditory and visual.
	Varying degrees of odd behavior would be the result, because the
	person's perception would be distorted.

	Unfortunately, many doctors and psychiatrists use mood-altering drugs
	on their patients.  If the problem is an imbalance of some hormone, or 
	lack of certain vitamins, etc., the way to treat this is by supplemen-
	ting the missing chemicals.  In some cases, a simple change in diet 
	would work "wonders" (eg, some people react to sugar in the same way
	others react to alcohol, and all they would have to do is avoid sugar).

	Mood altering drugs should be avoided.  All too often they are given
	to a patient even though no chemical imbalance is present, and, even
	if there were an imbalance, the drug does not treat, or alleviate it.
	The sole purpose becomes "numbing" the patient, and not healing him.
	The cause is never removed, and the problems will return.  The only 
	situations in which the patient will appear to be helped are: when 
	there was a temporary chemical imbalance, which	righted itself during
	the "treatment" (it could happen, though, that the "cause" disappears,
	but the treatment continued, masking the fact that the patient is no
	longer sick).

	I agree with Jay Adams that this is the only situation, ie chemical
	imbalance or injury, where the term "mental illness" has any real
	meaning.  The patient is sick, and needs healing, or treatment.

	There are also temporary mood swings associated with short term im-
	balances.  For example the changes that come from drinking alcohol.
	Or, eating too much sugar which will result in a "high" with subseq-
	uent "low".  Or, hormonal changes like menstruation, pregnancy, meno-
	pause, and for the men: mid-life crisis :-) :-)

4)  Spiritual/Demonic

	This is possession.  ie A demon takes control of the person, *causing*
	them to act in destructive ways, totally influencing the person.  The
	demon needs to be cast out.

	I disagree with the doctrine that christians need deliverance from 
	demons, so this is only dealing with non-believers.

	Unfortunately, many "charismatics" today (btw, I'm charismatic, but
	I don't agree with this doctrine) look at "deliverance" much in the 
	same manner that some doctors/psychiatrists look at mood-altering 
	drugs.  Deliverance becomes *the* answer to just about every problem.
	ie The assumption is made that the problems are demonically caused,  
	therefore the answer is deliverance.

	Many times the explanation for the "strong drive" to sin is based in
	our conditioned "self" (see #2 above).  There is no external force at
	work.  The internal force of habit is strong enough, and requires no
	concious effort.

Rob

    
     To call chemical imbalances "the flesh" is a bit of a stretch. I
    intended this note to be a flame, but the Lord threw water on me ;-)
     Anyway, I know of a situation where a young lady had severe 
    neurochemical imbalances, yet the "church" she was in called it her 
    "flesh", sin in her life, etc to explain her severe depression. She
    was suicidal, or at least had those tendencies, was abusing and 
    neglecting her very young children, and yet all this group could
    do was try to play Christian psychologist with her and chalk it
    up to her "flesh", that is, her sin nature.
     Finally, by God's grace, she sought help from a Christian psychiatrist
    who did prescribe medication for her. She is a changed woman, and I
    mean for the better. This Christian psychiatrist also was involved at
    one time with a group much like the one the young lady was involved
    with so she helped her through that situation as well.
     I wouldn't be too quick to broadly condemn the use of medication in 
    treating such illness. In some cases God has used it for His glory to
    help His children. To simply say "it's the flesh" can invite disaster.
    I know, I've seen it !!
    
     RG

re .24 RG, 

Did they actually test for a chemical imbalance and find one?  Or did they just
prescribe one of the standard anti-depression drugs?  Did the christian psy-
chiatrist also counsel the woman over a period of time?  It might just be that
the woman finally got some good counsel, and the drugs themselves may not have
been the key to her recovery.

None the less, the church was probably only partially wrong.  The problem comes
from people, even if they do have a chemical imbalance, developing certain be-
havioral patterns.  In other words, the chemical imbalance may have been the
initial cause, but now it's practiced behavior, and there will need to be a
change in habits.

When it comes to depression, there are many things a person can do to help
alleviate it without drugs, even if there is some physical factor contributing
to the problem.

Rob

      re: -1
    
      Whoa!!  Wait a minute!  Did you really read my note??  I said
      that because one's faith may not be perfect, I feel 'middle of
      the road' about this.
    
      I'm all for some medical treatments and oftentimes helping a 
      person in total bondage to sin when under some of these more
      terrible circumstances.
    
      To look at this from a different perspective, think of it from 
      the perspective of much more abounding grace.  Yeah, I happen to
      believe chemicals are part of the flesh.  And yes, I do believe 
      that if faith is perfected, the lusts of the flesh are crucified.
    
      I'm not saying you believe this, but your note (for me) is bad
      news because it suggests that abounding grace is no match for
      the flesh which has chemical imbalances.
    
      The intent of my note was to suggest that abounding grace is
      infinitely more motivating than even the pull of chemically
      screwed up flesh.  I suggest that IF (and that is a big if), the
      eye of faith saw a certain fulness of the heart of Christ hung for
      him and appreciated it for what it is, that person's mind would be
      cleansed by the corresponding indwelling of Christ.
    
      I am not here to diminish the awfulness of chemically screwed up
      flesh.  I worked at a mental hospital; I have seen several paranoid
      schizophrenics and manic depressants.  My entire intent was to
      point to an abounding grace that is an ocean's worth of potential
      motivating force while such flesh is perhaps in comparison a cup
      of water.
    
      "But to those who are being saved, the message of the cross is the
      power of God."
    
                                                  Tony
       

    
    >Did they actually test for chemical imbalance and find one?
     Yes.......
    >Did the Christian psychiatrist counsel the woman over a period of
    >time?
     Yes
    
     I believe that both were instrumental in her recovery. I also believe
    that it was God's grace that the young lady got the help she needed. In
    this case our Lord chose to use modern medicine. 
    
     RG
    
     

We've spread into various different related discussions here.  From the
specific case Pam cited in .0, we've moved on to the possible source of the
problem (principally spiritual or physical / chemical), and potentially
effective areas of treatment. 

I believe that we should be aware that, as hinted in Galatians 6:1-2, we are
all prone to fall into sin; all subject to temptation, and it is only God's
hand which protects us from being bowled over every which way by the enemy (as
per 1 Corinthians 10:13 - references not included are quoted at the end). 

However, whatever the provocation or source / strength of the temptation, we
never have a watertight excuse for sinning.  The onus on us is to withstand
temptation at all levels - bearing in mind the resources He places at our
disposal (Ephesians 1:19). 

A good example of this is in Proverbs 6:30 :
  "Men do not despise a thief is he steals to satisfy his hunger when he 
   is starving.  Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold, though it 
   costs him all the wealth of his house."

Temptation can seem to be destroying us (though we know that it will not, but
only seems to).  But the spiritual strength built up by resisting, and
maintaining our integrity is of eternal value, while the hardship of
deprivation is only temporal. 

So - even if the cause of a weakness was physical, the responsibility not to
sin remains with the individual.  He entrusts us through such tests - they are
not a punishment, but a training up of spiritual strength in putting our faith
into action, as indicated in 1 Peter 1:6-7. 

In the opposite way, succumbing to temptation leads to the progressive
deterioration indicated in James 1:14-15... 


Meanwhile, quite where this impacts the 'sin' barrier is a matter for 
individual care and consideration - discerning the attitudes of the heart, and
the wilingness or otherwise to accept responsibility for one's actions.
'Unwillingness to be responsible' seeming to me generally to be a more serious
problem than the individual resultant actions, where this does not impact
others morally...  As I understand .0, there is an unwillingness to take
responsibility.  In this sort of case, any temporary reprieve / gift / loan 
removes any residual sense of responsibility, and any sense of it neediong to 
be dealt with, as those who 'helped' are perceived as being potentially 
responsible to deal with future crises - ie, once given a gift or loan, she 
would be liable (on that basis) to plunge deeper into debt...

 - Merely my agreement with the preceding conclusions people have offered, but 
from another slant...

				God bless - praying
								Andrew

References :
============

Galatians 6:1-2 :
  "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should 
   restore him gently.  But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

1 Corinthians 10:13 :
  "And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can 
   bear..."

Ephesians 1:19 :
  "...His incomparably great power for us who believe.  That power is like the 
   working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised 
   Him from the dead..."

1 Peter 1:6-7 :
  "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had 
   to suffer grief in all sorts of trials.  These have come so that your faith 
   - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - 
   may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honour when Jesus 
   Christ is revealed."

James 1:14-15 :
  "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire he is dragged away and 
   enticed.  Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, 
   when it is full-grown, gives birth to death

    Thank you all -
    
    My SIL talked to her friend and explained that she would lend
    the money as long as she tell her husband what had happened and
    that she attempt to remedy the problem.  The lady said she
    would talk to her husband Friday night and call my SIL back.
    
    It is Tuesday and there has been no call.  I fear that she 
    was unable to talk to her husband.
    
    I will be calling her later today and try to discuss the
    problem with her with all the love and understanding I can
    muster.  
    
    Pam

    She may need a mediator, like I mentioned a few replies back.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 541.22 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>



| Not to discount the extra 'pull' caused by a chemical imbalance, but would 
| not chemicals be part of the flesh and does not the word say that the flesh 
| can be crucified, that if we walk in the Spirit we won't obey the lusts of 
| the flesh, and that where sin abounds grace does much more abound?

	Tony, if someone has strep throat, how is it taken care of? Through
medication. Who do you think allowed this medication to be discovered? I
believe it was God that did this. Apply this to the chemical imbalance and you
might be able to see where He comes into play in all this. If one were going
through the turmoils that have been talked about in this notestring did not
know what was causing the problems, have prayed to God to help find the answer.
If God showed them that what was causing, or help causing the problems was a
chemical imbalance, then hasn't He led them to a partial cure? True, praying
and stopping what the flesh wants is a big part of it, but medication may also
be needed. Can you see this?




Glen

      Hi Glen,
    
        Thanks Glen.  That's a really good point.  As I said, I am 
        not against medical solutions save _perhaps_ some types that
        zombie a person out.
    
        One thing that is curious though.  How about all those demon
        possessed people in biblical times?  What about today?  Isn't
        it curious that the Bible never said, "So and so had a physical
        problem which caused mental illness."  They were described as
        demon possessed.
    
        Could it be that today's mentally ill are similar to these people
        mentioned in the Bible?  Might it be possible that the chemical
        imbalance is a byproduct of a previous spiritual dynamic?  What
        came first, the chicken or the egg?  I am definitely open to the
        possibility that we see chemical signs associated with mental 
        illness, but these chemical signs may just be effects of prior
        spiritual problems.
    
        In either case, the only point I was trying to make was to not
        diminish how constraining God's love is.  We just haven't had the
        sight of faith to tap into it.
    
                                                 Tony

Re .32 Tony,

side note: in .26 you said "re: -1" which was my reply.  I'm assuming you were
replying to .24 rather than -1 (.25), since your note doesn't seem to make 
sense to me.  Good ole notes collision.

I used to work in a psychiatric hospital with teen-agers.  I think that a lot
of what modern medicine labels as "mental illness" is demon possession.  But,
I don't think that todays chemical imbalances are byproducts of demonic 
possession.  Plus Matthew says:

     4:24 And his  fame  went  throughout  all  Syria;  and  they
     brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers
     diseases and torments, and those which were  possessed  with
     devils,  and  those  which were lunatick, and those that had
     the palsy; and he healed them.

Which seems to cover just about everything, including "mental illness".  The
problem today is that secular medicine will say that the possessed are mentally
ill, and then commit them to an institution, and turn them into zombies with
drugs so that they don't tear up the hospital.

Rob

	re: .32

	Good note, Tony!

	Karen

      Hi,
    
        Thanks Karen!
    
      re: .33
    
        Boy, you brought up an excellent point.  That is the first time
        I have seen scripture explicitly bring up mental illness AND
        devil possession as separate 'item.'
    
        I LOVE it when I learn something especially along spiritual
        lines!  Thanks for teaching me something, bro!
    
        Given what you shared, my position has changed somewhat.
    
        One thing I'm wondering...can mental illness always still be 
        considered an effect of a previous cause that is basically
        unbelief?
    
        Actually, I tend to doubt it.  I know its a fringe thing, but what
        about autistic people.  How are they reached?  What is the
        spiritual thing that is going on?  I mean...a lot of people seem
        to have mental illness even before accountability sometimes.
    
        Oh well...
    
                                                       God Bless,
    
                                                       Tony

    As usual, I'm way behind, but I have a few thoughts I'd like to add.
    
    Re: .15 The pastor's statement that adversity reveals who a person is,
    not makes them who they are. I can agree with this in part; however,
    if taken at face value, it seems to me that an inherent implication of 
    this statement is that human beings are static, rather than continually
    changing and learning. We are not born developed beings, and adversity
    certainly plays a part in the shaping of the child yet to become the
    man, and we certainly experience adversity throughout our lives. I also 
    believe that God uses adversity to sharpen his saints, as well as to bring 
    some to their knees, so that they can begin to walk as His children. In
    that case adversity would reveal the man, but would also be the
    starting place for that man to begin to change. 
    
    As far as chemical imbalances and accountability, it is often an
    individual's sense of accountability that makes the situation
    unbearable to them (they themselves hate the behavior/symptom which
    they cannot seem to control) and drives them to seek help. I do agree
    that there is an abuse of drugs in the treatment of mental illness, not
    enough consideration of spiritual warfare and that there is far too much 
    of a trend of blaming another and relieving oneself of accountability, but 
    I also think there is a place for the treatment of physical causes of 
    aberrant behaviors, those causes including chemical imbalances.
    
    Lastly, I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but there is
    such a thing as the sins of the fathers being visited upon the
    children.  Generational sin - Catherine Marshall addresses this in one
    of her books (I can't remember which one) using the example of her own
    extreme, irrational fears, which she believed were communicated to her 
    through her grandmother when she was an infant.  She was ultimately 
    accountable for her own fears, and broke the cycle with the help of her 
    son, but it was necessary for her to search for understanding of the root 
    of that particular sin in her life. Sin began with Adam and Eve and has
    continued from generation to generation.  
    
    This does not relieve anyone of accountability for their own sin, but I 
    think it's an important issue for two reasons. One, is that in those cases 
    of a child or an adult plagued with something they themselves do not 
    understand - not caused physically, nor by demon possession, nor mental
    illness, not *originating* in their will, but seemingly there always, may 
    be able to gain an insight that can help them in their struggle to conquer 
    that sin by examining the past, because there may be a "generational" root 
    to that sin.
    
    Two, it is important that we understand our accountability to one
    another, generationally, and as a society.  Every time we fail to teach 
    accountability, every time we fail to yield our wills to God, but instead 
    to pursue sin - the effects are far reaching, much farther reaching than 
    we imagine. Few parents willingly inflict pain upon their child, but
    how many unwittingly do far worse, simply by not battling the sin in
    their own lives.
    
    Hope this makes sense.
    
    Rebecca
    
           

    re .36
    
    >Hope this makes sense.
    
    Males great sense to me.
    
    Good note Rebecca,
    
    Bing

>    Re: .15 The pastor's statement that adversity reveals who a person is,
>    not makes them who they are. I can agree with this in part; however,
>    if taken at face value, it seems to me that an inherent implication of 
>    this statement is that human beings are static, rather than continually
>    changing and learning. We are not born developed beings, and adversity
>    certainly plays a part in the shaping of the child yet to become the
>    man, and we certainly experience adversity throughout our lives. I also 
>    believe that God uses adversity to sharpen his saints, as well as to bring 
>    some to their knees, so that they can begin to walk as His children. In
>    that case adversity would reveal the man, but would also be the
>    starting place for that man to begin to change. 

The difference between the static and changing individual is how they 
approach adversity.  I agree with your statement, btw, but feel it can 
be defined a little further.  If one is unwilling to be sharpened by our 
Lord Jesus Christ, they could fall into the static category.. unwilling 
to be molded.  This reveals a lot about the character of an individual.  
On the other hand, facing adversity and learning from it, also reveals a 
lot about character.  Does this make sense to you?
    
>    As far as chemical imbalances and accountability, it is often an
>    individual's sense of accountability that makes the situation
>    unbearable to them (they themselves hate the behavior/symptom which
>    they cannot seem to control) and drives them to seek help. I do agree

Are we talking about self esteem here?  How do you see accountability to 
someone who has low self esteem?  For instance, if a person has low self 
esteem and they murder someone for name calling [it has happened], do we 
now blame their self esteem and let them go free?  Where does 
accountability begin and end?  I've experienced the hormonal fluctuation 
that we women go through and found myself in the middle of a crying 
episode knowing that crying wasn't necessary, but unable to stop it. :-) 
But I also know that my "behavior" during these episodes can be directly 
related to my "sin condition".  I find that "abiding" in Christ doesn't 
stop the flux, but it certainly changes how I react to them.

>    that there is an abuse of drugs in the treatment of mental illness, not
>    enough consideration of spiritual warfare and that there is far too much 
>    of a trend of blaming another and relieving oneself of accountability, but 
>    I also think there is a place for the treatment of physical causes of 
>    aberrant behaviors, those causes including chemical imbalances.

See above.  I still believe that "abiding" is the answer to how we 
behave in this life.  My God who created this body, knows it's 
imbalances.
   
>    Lastly, I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but there is
>    such a thing as the sins of the fathers being visited upon the
>    children.  Generational sin - Catherine Marshall addresses this in one
>    of her books (I can't remember which one) using the example of her own
>    extreme, irrational fears, which she believed were communicated to her 
>    through her grandmother when she was an infant.  She was ultimately 
>    accountable for her own fears, and broke the cycle with the help of her 
>    son, but it was necessary for her to search for understanding of the root 
>    of that particular sin in her life. Sin began with Adam and Eve and has
>    continued from generation to generation.  

This comes down to understanding Grace and how it sets you free.   Since 
Christ paid the price for our sin, we are now accountable to God alone 
at the judgement seat.  If we carry around sin that is not our own,  
we cannot attain forgiveness for that sin.  We can only receive 
forgiveness for that which is not our own.  In psychology today, it's 
called ownership awareness.  
    
>    This does not relieve anyone of accountability for their own sin, but I 
>    think it's an important issue for two reasons. One, is that in those cases 
>    of a child or an adult plagued with something they themselves do not 
>    understand - not caused physically, nor by demon possession, nor mental
>    illness, not *originating* in their will, but seemingly there always, may 
>    be able to gain an insight that can help them in their struggle to conquer 
>    that sin by examining the past, because there may be a "generational" root 
>    to that sin.

Amen to that!  More often than not, I find that generational roots are 
the cause for many of our sin habits.  However, that does not preclude 
as you said accountability before God on judgement day.
    
>    Two, it is important that we understand our accountability to one
>    another, generationally, and as a society.  Every time we fail to teach 
>    accountability, every time we fail to yield our wills to God, but instead 
>    to pursue sin - the effects are far reaching, much farther reaching than 
>    we imagine. Few parents willingly inflict pain upon their child, but
>    how many unwittingly do far worse, simply by not battling the sin in
>    their own lives.
    
A warning to all that is worth listening too. Thanks for sharing this. 
It made perfect sense.  

Nancy
    

Re .35 Tony,

>        One thing I'm wondering...can mental illness always still be 
>        considered an effect of a previous cause that is basically
>        unbelief?

Depending on how you look at it, all disease and infirmity is a result of sin.
But, as you mentioned, there are some things that people are born with, or 
inherit.  Simply because we live in a sick, sinful, degenerating, world.  The
blind man in John 9 would fall into this category.  There was no sin involved,
in spite of the teaching of the day that said someone had to have sinned to
cause the condition.

When it comes to the mentally handicapped, by which I mean those people born
with a condition that makes them, as far as we can tell, totally unreachable;
I think we just have to leave that one to God.  Some people will surely say
that they, just like we, are born with "original sin" (for lack of a better
term) and, unless they make a concious decision *for* Christ, they are con-
demned.  MY belief is, I don't think we can know.  I certainly believe that
it is possible for God to reach them, even if we can't.  What happens, spirit-
ually, in the lives of those people is impossible for us to know.

Rob

Hi,

The verse: "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them that hate me" does not mean that the
sins are passed on.  Rather, the punishment, should the children continue in
the sins of their "fathers", will continue into the succeeding generations.
The babylonian captivity, and various other times when Israel was ruled by
other nations, are examples.

One reason I believe that is the following verses out of Ezekiel:

     18:1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
     18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb  concerning  the
     land  of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
     and the children's teeth are set on edge?
     18:3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have  occa-
     sion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
     18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the  father,
     so  also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sinneth,
     it shall die.
....
     18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of
     the  father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and
     right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he
     shall surely live.
     18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not
     bear  the  iniquity  of the father, neither shall the father
     bear the iniquity of  the  son;  the  righteousness  of  the
     righteous  shall  be  upon  him,  and  the wickedness of the
     wicked shall be upon him.
     18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that  he
     hath  committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which
     is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
     18:22 All his transgressions that he  hath  committed,  they
     shall  not  be mentioned unto him; in his righteousness that
     he hath done he shall live.
     18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?
     saith  the  Lord God; and not that he should return from his
     ways, and live?

I believe that we pass many things on to our children, but most of them
have to do with their nature (sinful), and certain genes.  The problems
come with the things we teach them by example and word throughout their
lives.  The things that drive me craziest about my kids, are those things
that I see (and dislike) in myself.

I believe it would be unjust, and definitely not consistent with God's love
(hi Tony :-), if He would condemn the "children" to *continue in the sins* of
the fathers.  The children continue in the sin because they learn it from
their fathers, but God gives them the opportunity, at any point, to break
the cycle of sin.  The punishment continues as long as they continue to
sin, because God, in His infinite mercy, is trying to incite the children
to repentance.

Plus, I think we put too much emphasis on "visit the sins...third and fourth
generations" and not enough on:

     Deut. 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the
     faithful God, which  keepeth covenant and mercy with them that
     that love him and keep his commandments to a  thousand genera-
     tions;

Rob

| <<< Note 541.32 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>



| One thing that is curious though.  How about all those demon possessed people 
| in biblical times?  What about today?  Isn't it curious that the Bible never 
| said, "So and so had a physical problem which caused mental illness."  They 
| were described as demon possessed.

	One possibility is that they only spoke of those who were possessed and
never addressed the mental illness subject. Another might be that they don't
know the things we know today. They may have not known what was a chemical
imbalance in some cases back then. Remember, God reveals things to us in bits
and pieces. Did we always know that asprin would help deal with headaches? Did
we always know that the Dead Sea Scrolls were not destroyed or maybe that they
would stay lost forever? Can you see where I am going with this Tony?

| Could it be that today's mentally ill are similar to these people mentioned 
| in the Bible?  Might it be possible that the chemical imbalance is a 
| byproduct of a previous spiritual dynamic?  

	That is an interesting thought Tony. If that were the case, then this
medicine stuff that I believe God allowed us to discover is some pretty strong
stuff. :-)  So between Spiritual and medical healings, things seem pretty well
covered. But not knowing what causes the chemical imbalance to begin with, we
might only find out when we meet our maker. But, He has revealed things to us
before, and maybe this will be one more thing He reveals before we leave the
planet to be with Him.



Glen

| <<< Note 541.35 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>



| Actually, I tend to doubt it.  I know its a fringe thing, but what about 
| autistic people.  How are they reached?  What is the spiritual thing that 
| is going on?  I mean...a lot of people seem to have mental illness even 
| before accountability sometimes.



	Tony, don't count them out. I have a friend who works for the ARC in
Lowell. He works daily with all sorts of people on different levels of
functionality. You'd be surprised at how much they do know about God. They do
express things differently, but I'll tell ya, they never stop surprising him. I
think that is why he has stayed for so long there, despite the very low income
he receives. 



Glen

    | autistic people.  How are they reached?  What is the spiritual thing that 
    | is going on?
    
    I agree with Glen that they understand a lot more that we may think
    they do.  My brother-in-law has an autistic brother.  They never
    thought he was comprehending much of what they were saying.  They found
    out about a new discovery where autistic people can express themselves
    with a special keyboard.  With it he (the autistic boy) was able to
    express his understanding of what he heard.  It was truely eye opening
    of what he was really comprehending.  He had understood about God's
    love for him.  He knew when people were saying, "Hi, how are you
    today?".  It makes you think twice about speaking to autistic folks in
    a loving way.
    
    Bing
    

      Hi Rob, Glen, and Bing!,
    
        Thanks Glen for your inputs.  I'm still learning!  One thing
        though, Glen.  Rob mentioned a verse which explicitly mentioned
        demon possession _and_ lunacy thus (to me) implying a realm of
        mental illness outside the umbrella of demonism.  This was an
        entirely fresh insight for me.
    
        Rob, nothing like finding consistencies with God's love, huh?
        A definite amen to your Exodus interpretation.  God is simply
        stating a cause/effect spiritual reality.  If dad hits ma, it is
        more likely that their son will hit his future wife.
    
        Bing, hope this doesn't burst a bubble too much, but the very thing
        you mentioned was on 60 minutes.  There is some validation that the
        whole keyboard thing is pretty suspect.  But, I don't want to imply
        that autistics cannot be reached.
    
        Oh yeah, Rob...speaking of accountability and all that.  Not
        wanting to get into original sin (since I don't believe in it
        anyway!), but Jesus came to save and not condemn.  God does not
        condemn, sin does.  But, light does make manifest that
        condemnation.  That would seem to shed some positive hope for 
        those cases of people about which scripture is largely silent.
    
                                                       Tony
    

    Rob,
    
    I've heard it said that what is passed on is the "attitude" surrounding
    the sin from generation to generation.
    
    For instance, it is true, that alcoholics beget alcoholics.  There is a
    "predisposition" if you will to sin.
    
    

    >Bing, hope this doesn't burst a bubble too much, but the very thing
    >you mentioned was on 60 minutes.  There is some validation that the
    >whole keyboard thing is pretty suspect.  But, I don't want to imply
    >that autistics cannot be reached.
    
    Yea, that's where they found out about it.  As far as being suspect,
    they asked questions to him, and he answers.  I don't know how I can
    invalidate the personal experience of someone else (These are
    intelligent, highly educated people.  They are also strong believers).
    
    Bing

| <<< Note 541.44 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>




| One thing though, Glen. Rob mentioned a verse which explicitly mentioned demon
| possession _and_ lunacy thus (to me) implying a realm of mental illness 
| outside the umbrella of demonism.  This was an entirely fresh insight for me.

	I think along the same lines as Rob on this. In my note you should have
seen me address the other possibilities, but thanks to Rob we have Scripture
from the Bible.




Glen

      re: -1
    
      Hi Glen,
    
        Yeah, the only reason I brought it up wasn't to instruct you,
        it was to let you know that I learned something and now under-
        stood it much as you do.
    
        And it is very important for me to see it in the word!
    
                                                    Tony