Conference yukon::christian_v7

    First off, only God can work miracles such as healing. A prayer cloth, 
    is usually one that has been blessed with Holy Oil or was worn by a Saint. 
    Christ robe was thought to heal, but even there, it was Christ Jesus, not 
    the robe that did the healing.

    As far as healing a marriage, this is not the same as a physical
    illness, because in a marriage there are two people who both have
    a free  will. God may inspire them in order to change their ways
    of thinking, but they will always have the freedom to chose or 
    reject the love they have for each other and for God.


     Jim

>    First off, only God can work miracles such as healing. A prayer cloth, 
>    is usually one that has been blessed with Holy Oil or was worn by a Saint. 
>    Christ robe was thought to heal, but even there, it was Christ Jesus, not 
>    the robe that did the healing.
>

Is it a common Gift(or even a rare Gift) that God give to a person that
through him God's healing power goes to the cloth?  If I know someone is
sick, should I look for such gifted person for a anointed cloth for curing?
If I know someone who is daemon possessed, I would look for a person(and I
know one) who is Gifted with daemon casting ability to help.  Is this the
same type of thing?  I do understand in all cases are God's Grace and power
and I also believe God also use those Gifted persons to minister His Work.

>
>    As far as healing a marriage, this is not the same as a physical
>    illness, because in a marriage there are two people who both have
>    a free  will. God may inspire them in order to change their ways
>    of thinking, but they will always have the freedom to chose or 
>    reject the love they have for each other and for God.
>
Thanks and agree.

Wally

Hi Wally,

According to Acts 19:11-12 God worked "special" miracles via what we now call
"prayer cloths".  Actually, I don't think that the concept of prayer cloths,
at least not in the form that we use them today, is mentioned in the Bible at
all.  Although I'm sure that all sorts of different traditions (as the one
mentioned  in .1 of annointing the cloth with oil) have developed over the
years, and God has continually used such vehicles for His glory.

If memory serves, there are only two instances in the Bible where something
remotely related to "prayer cloths" is mentioned.  The most remote being when
the woman with the "issue of blood" touched Jesus' robe and was healed.   I
would like to add to what Jim said regarding that healing.  It was Jesus that
did the healing; and it was the woman's faith in Jesus' power that opened 
the door.  She was convinced that any contact with Jesus would work the heal-
ing, and his robe was the closest she could get.

In Acts, it's made clear that these were "special" miracles.  The cloths were
taken to those who were sick, or demon possessed, and God healed them.  Again,
I think that the prime agents are faith and God's workings.  So, to answer 
your question, I would not consider the use of prayer cloths a "common" gift.
Actually, I don't consider it a gift at all, but an out-of-the-ordinary way
for God to touch people and heal them.

It's a quirk of mine, but I see it as biblical, that we need to get away from
the idea of "gifts".  ie Gifts are special things, given to special people.
Unfortunately, I rarely consider myself *special*, and I believe that there are
many saints like me.  We often limit God's workings through our lives because 
we concentrate too much on our own inabilities.  Plus, certain people like to
make a name for themselves, claiming that the giftings of God are their person-
al ministry (an unbiblical concept), which helps contribute to the glorifica-
tion of the "gifted".

Mark 16 says that healing and casting out demons are *signs* that follow *all*
christians.  Which means, you and I have an authority to use Jesus' Name 
to heal and cast out demons which is independant of "gifting".  So, if you
know someone that is sick, prayer for them yourself.  If you really don't feel
like you can do that, then, yes, find someone who has used this authority be-
fore.  If that person can't come with you to the sick person, then the use
of a "prayer cloth" is the "next best thing to being there". :-)

When talking about marriage, as Jim said in .1, we're talking about two in-
dividuals.  We use the term "healing", but what we really mean is reconcil-
iation.  Prayer is important, but helping two people who have grown (not blown)
apart to be reconciled may require more than a special miracle.  It may take
weeks of counsel, and years of continued growth, to make the marriage work.

Rob

    RE: -1
    
    	Rob, Amen I agree with your reply.  The use of a prayer cloth
    should not focus on the cloth... for it in itself is nothing.  The 
    use of a prayer cloth is used in a way as a substitution for someone 
    or more than one persons as a point of contact for those peoples faith.
    Never, Never, should the focus be on a cloth.  It's God, and only God
    that does the healing.  It is based on the Acts 19:11-12 scripture that
    Rob mentioned.
    
    	God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even
    hankerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick,
    and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
    			Acts 19:11-12  Amplified
    
    	These hankerchiefs were substituted as a direct means of contact
    for Paul.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard 
                                                                       
    

    >It's a quirk of mine, but I see it as biblical, that we need to get
    >away from the idea of "gifts".  ie Gifts are special things, given to 
    >special people.
    
    >Unfortunately, I rarely consider myself *special*, and I believe that
    >there are many saints like me.  We often limit God's workings through 
    >our lives because we concentrate too much on our own inabilities. 
    
    I believe that you have just pinned down something very important about
    our humanity, it's called discouragement.  The gifts are not to be
    overlooked, but we are not supposed to be looking for them either.
    
    I Corinthians 13
    
    

    re: .7
    
    Nothing; it's still there...as is the notion that if one were able to
    move mountains, or speak in the language of angels, or prophesy & know
    all the mysteries there are, etc. etc. without love, it would be
    useless.
    
    Love is patient & kind, never envious or boastful, never proud, rude or
    self-seeking.  It's not easily angered; it keeps no record of wrongs;
    it doesn't delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.  Love always
    protects, always trusts, and always hopes...love never fails.
    
    And what is true love?  Do we have an example?
    
    "The Son of Man didn't come to be served but to serve...."
    "....who being in very nature G-d....humbled Himself and took the form
    of a slave...."
    etc...
    
    Steve

    There is an interesting link between love and the manifestations of the 
    gift of the Spirit.  First, I believe it is no accident that Paul 
    placed the text we see in 1 Corinthians 13 between the text of 12 and 
    14.  Whereas the 'gifts' are ineffective and self-serving without love, 
    love finds expression (though not exclusively) in the 'gifts'.  God 
    intends for the two to be joined tandemly to build up, exhort, and lift 
    up believers and non alike.  Faith works by love.
    
    Let me ask a question.  Can a man truly love, in a selfless giving way, 
    unless God places that love within Him?  I think the answer is no.  I 
    think that Peter expresses that very clearly in his actions.  Though 
    his words said, "Even if others forsake you, I will not," his actions 
    betrayed his words.  Even after Jesus was resurrected they were having 
    a conversation on the beach and Jesus asked Peter three times if he 
    loved Him.  Peters reply was, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."  
    But in the Greek what Jesus asked and what Peter was offering were two 
    different things.  Jesus asked if Peter loved (agape-selfless love) Him 
    but Peter replied that he loved (phileo-brotherly affection) Him.  
    After Pentecost we see a completely different Peter (I won't get into 
    the argument "at what point were the disciples saved" in this reply).  
    In Acts 3 and 4 we see Peter taken by the same men who only a few 
    months before had crucified our Lord only this time He wasn't cowering 
    in the shadows he was standing boldly, proclaiming the gospel.  What 
    was different?  God was in him and not just with him.
    
    An interesting word study is the phrase "moved with compassion" found 
    several times in the gospels.  Steve is correct in his statement that 
    Christ came to be a servant and not to be served.  We should certainly 
    follow His example.  I believe that this study will provide some 
    insight into just how Jesus served while here on earth.
    
    I know that Jesus was fully God and fully man (a point which I have 
    argued in this conference in the past) but in His ministry on earth 
    Jesus functioned within the confines of His humanity.  In other words, 
    He did not invoke special privilege as God to perform works of healing 
    or deliverance.  He moved in faith as he was "moved with compassion".  
    Jesus said that he did not say or do anything that he did not see or 
    hear from the Father.  Because of that, He said, His judgments (words) 
    were true.  The phrase "moved with compassion" means to be moved in the 
    inner man (the spirit man) with a yearning that compels one to action.  
    I believe that that which moved Jesus in His inner man was the love of 
    the Father directing Jesus in service.  I believe that this yearning or
    motivation is completely independent of whether one is a
    charismatic/Pentecostal or not.  I know that, just from this
    conference, we could compose a list of testimonies of how God had moved
    you to pray for someone or do something for someone.  It is a
    fundamental characteristic of being in Christ.  As you make a list of the 
    verses which contain this phrase you will note that they are always 
    accompanied with an action.  Jesus was moved with compassion AND... he 
    did something about it.  Love is useless unless there is action 
    associated with it.  In my opinion, the hollow pity that we sometimes 
    pass off as love without action is no love at all but lip service that 
    angers a loving and just God.  So, if God is the motivator and love is 
    the motivation then what is the response?  Here is a brief list of what 
    Jesus did:
    
       -    He taught the multitudes (met their spiritual needs)
       -    He fed the multitudes (met their physical needs)
       -    He healed
       -    He delivered from demonic oppression
       -    He raised the dead
       -    He forgave (contained in the parable)
    
    The 'gifts' are tools in the hands of a servant to meet the needs of 
    and bless God's people.  If we use them for anything else then we 
    dishonor God and endanger our soul.  However, if we truly love as God 
    would have us to love, how can we reject them?
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
                
    

      Hi Greg,
    
        I'll jump in only because I think much of what you are saying
        applies to me.  I do not seek the 'charisms' in the sense that
        _you_ believe the charisms to be.  For example, I believe in the
        gift of tongues, I just happen to believe it is something different
        than what you happen to believe it is.  I do believe and have
        heard cases of people who have come upon people of different 
        tongues suddenly preach some of the gospel to these people (in
        their tongue).
    
        All I'm saying is that I think we're all struggling.  We're
        all far short of the glory of God.  Perhaps many of us discern 
        God's ways in some aspects better than in some others.  There may
        be some people who have incredibly meek and humble spirits who
        don't have the discernment to know just how to seek the gifts
        or just what exactly are the true gifts which God calls us to
        seek.  But, perhaps one who is strongly convicted that he does
        have some discernment as to the true gifts and what it means to
        seek them...perhaps that person might be able to learn a thing or
        two about how this person is 'strong in the Spirit' in terms of
        his meekness and humility!  And maybe some such church is strong
        in the Spirit in that way!!!
    
        I guess the only other thing I can add is a scripture that is
        incredibly challenging for me.  And that is the Isaiah one where
        the Lord says (paraphrase):
    
        the Lord has given me the tongue of the learned that I may learn
        how to speak a word in season to he who is weary.  He awakens me 
        morning by morning, he awakens my ear to hear as the learned.
    
        There are a lot of people here who believe the charisms are some-
        thing different than you believe they are.  Given this discern-
        ment, they really may not be knowingly disobeying the Spirit of
        God.  Might I suggest that as some might be ignorant of 'shunning'
        or of disobedience, that Isaiah may be relevent?
    
        To give an analogy, I believe the Spirit of God would have that
        we all rest on the seventh day - on God's Sabbath according to the
        commandment and reiterated in Hebrews where it says, there remains
        a rest [sabbatismos - sabbath rest] to the people of God.  (This
        Greek word CLEARLY pointing to a Sabbath rest and not the
        continuous rest in Christ [whole different Greek word] that Hebrews is 
        talking about and comparing the Sabbath rest to.)
    
        What's my point Greg?  I'm not comfortable with telling people they
        are shunning the Spirit or disobeying Him.  I don't think that is 
        in line with that Isaiah verse (words in season).  I think perhaps
        God can convict a whole lot better than I can and to attack how
        other's believe too vehemently might be injurious to the body
        of Christ.
    
        Actually, I have come to believe that showing the Crucified One is
        usually the way to go.  Let people see your portrayels of the
        cross.  Let your descriptions of that melt the heart.  And as the
        heart is melted, all things else being the same, they will better
        discern the charisms and what it truly means to seek them.
    
        The greatest gift is the righteoussness of Christ.  Are we not in
        agreement on that?  The gospel is the preaching of the cross.
        Maybe if we all labored to rest in Christ and better learned to
        preach the cross, hearts would be melted, eyes and ears would be
        opened, and we could all better discern God's will in particular
        matters.
    
                                                     Tony
                                                         

    In regards to Spiritual Gifts, I heard some (what I considered) good
    advice.  That is "Major on the Majors and Minor on the Minors".  The
    thought being that we should look to discover our spiritual gifts, but that
    shouldn't be the central thrust of our Christianity.  Christianity is a
    relationship with our Heavenly Father.  Our major should be to know Him
    and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings.
    We should seek Him, just because of who He is.  I believe this also
    falls into line with what Jesus said when questioned about the two
    greatest commandments 1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart,
    and soul, and mind and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    >I do believe that one of the fears that some people have is the fear of
    >having their own religion/denomination/spiritual experiences
    >questioned; and unconsciously, they respond to that by trying
    >to beat upon the denomination/spiritual experiences of others.
    
    Greg, I agree with you that *fear* is one of the motivations behind my
    questioning much of what you write about.
    
    But, the fear is not of spiritual invalidation, but one of "Seeking to
    be a workman that needeth not to be ashamed".  

re: Note 538.9                        
    
>    		But, isn't love also obedient?  

Yes, of course...*He* was obedient to death, even death upon a tree...He is 
our example of love "G-d is love; and all who live in love live in G-d...".

>	And, if the Lord says,
>    	'earnestly covet the best gifts', ( 1 Cor. 12:31 );  and if
>    	the Lord says, 'pursue love, AND desire spiritual gifts'; 
>    	then wouldn't it be disobedient to shun the gifts of God's
>    	very own Holy Spirit?!  

(Did you interpret what I wrote to advodcate "shunning" G-d's gifts?
I neither contemplated, wrote nor implied such.)

To answer your question, I should think it horribly disobedient to shun 
*G-d*; the Giver of gifts for His own good pleasure and purpose - gifts 
which are given for the express purpose of building up the body (not one's 
self).  You know - seek *first* His Kingdom and His Reign in your life, and 
all other things will fall into place properly - also, signs & wonders will 
*follow* them that believe (as opposed to believers following after signs & 
wonders).

I don't necessarily like answering questions with questions; but to 
illustrate my point:

  - Which is superior, a desireable gift or the One who gives?

  - Which will pass away, tongues, prophecies, discernment, etc., or G-d?

Earnestly seek G-d *first*, then earnestly seek His Life to be manifest in 
and through you such that the needs of others are met and the body is built 
up (the purpose of the gifts).  Let Him use you to tell the Good News to 
someone who doesn't speak your language!  Let Him use you to discern the 
root of a problem that a brother has been struggling to discover for 
years!  Let Him use you as a vessel for His awesome power to heal; be it 
physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually....*all* to the praise and 
glory of *His Name*.

>	And, doesn't the Bible say that if
>    	you LOVE me, you will _keep_ _my_ _commandments_?  

Yes of course - loving G-d (and others, for that matter) isn't some mushy 
feeling; it should manifest itself in performance; e.g., obeying His 
commands.

>	Hmmmm....now here is a strange thing...   What are you telling me?

Specifically, I'm telling you that (in response to your prior question) 
nothing "happened" to the notion of earnestly seeking G-d's gifts.  
This exhortation (to earnestly desire the greater gifts) is as valid today 
as is the related Biblical admonition that gifts without true love are vain 
and useless (someone here spoke of 1Cor. chapters 12-14 being seen as a 
whole - I think that's sound).

I'm telling you just as G-d had Moshe fashion a bronze serpent upon a pole for 
healing, so too He may use any one of us as an instrument of His Work - but 
in either case, man's focus on the *instrument* as opposed to the *Healer* is 
vain and deadly.

I'm telling you that seeking G-d and *knowing* Him is not only far more 
important than seeking gifts, but is also the only proper way (and order)
in which to understand and apply His gifting in your life.  

I'm telling you this _because_ Yeshua said that many will say to Him "L-rd - 
didn't we perform many miraculous things in Your Name?" - and He will say to 
them, "Get out of my sight, you evildoers....I never *knew* you."

Perhaps I should have outlined this earlier.  Now that I have, does any of 
this really sound strange to you?

>	Hmmmm....now here is a strange thing...   What are you telling me?
>    	That you show love for God by shunning the gifts, or by 
>    	arguing with them that are obediently desire them?  

...neither of those options; rather, that one shows love for G-d (in part) 
by exercising those gifts He has given him from a place of Biblical love 
for others.

>	I don't
>    	understand how that can be called love.  Please, explain it
>    	to me?

Did that help?

Steve

    Greg,
    
    You did a good job summarizing some of what I said into 4 points!  To
    complete it (from my perspective), I would add the following before
    your summary:
    
    	G-d knows us intimately and wishes us to know Him in the same way.
    	Let each believer be dedicated to *knowing* the L-rd.  Now
    	consider: there is much work to be done among those who are dying
    	without Him.  If we *know* the One who said He had come to 
    	give sight to the blind, to heal the sick, to free those in 
    	bondage; and if we know the One who said that it was to our
    	advantage that He go to His Father that He might send the
    	Counsellor; and if we know the One who said that we would do
    	even greater things in His Name....then we would seek His
    	compassionate touch upon those who are in need and seek His
    	gifting to accomplish His plan and purpose *through* us.
    	Once we've established a relationship with Him and have begun
    	to *know* Him, we should, as the Bible says, "earnestly seek"
    	G-d's gifts.   Some things to understand about the gifts are:
    
    		(then your 4-point summary)
    
    I hope that communicates the point.
    
    Steve
    

    re: .19
    
    I don't know what you're apologizing for....if I'm responding to things
    you didn't say...just consider it as "bonus" pontificating....
    
    I wasn't offended - just seeking clarity...
    
    Steve

    Let's not confuse fear meaning reverence and fear meaning afraid.
    
    The fear I am speaking of is in reverence to the word of God, testing
    everything.   
    
    For God hath not given us the spirit of fear [afraid], but of love and of 
    power and of a sound mind.. [from memory Timothy 1:7 I think]
    
    This fear is ungodly...
    
    Proverbs 1:7  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but
    fools despise wisdom and instruction.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    This goes along with 2Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto
    God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, 
                    rightly dividing the word of truth.
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Nancy

    Greg,
    
    There is no sign in my cubicle with word Gifts in the middle of red 
    circle with a line drawn through it.
    
    I believe in the gifts of God, as much as I do in salvation.  But I
    also believe that what Steve wrote is paramount in understanding why
    Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.  
    
    If you don't, we can agree to disagree, can't we???
    
    Nancy

    RE:0

    Wally, 
          as you can see, your question probably isn't being answered. ;)

    In short just let me say that if you go to Jesus in prayer with your
    heart, he'll send you whatever you need. I wouldn't necessarily seek 
    out a person who does healing, or look for a prayer cloth, although 
    that might be where God may send you. God chooses the means to which 
    he will come to you. The bottom line is that you MUST pray, pray, pray.

    Jim

 ....and pray again!




 Jim

    Greg,
    
    We all choose authorities in our life.  For me, rightfully dividing the
    word of truth can also mean choosing an authority on Biblical exegesis
    and then listening to him when I need the help.
    
    I thank God that he has given me such a Shephard in my Pastor, Dr. Jack
    A. Trieber of North Valley Baptist Church, right in my own
    neighborhood. :-)
    
    Praise God!!!
    
    

    Re: fear 
    
    Greg, as a brother in Christ that has personally experienced all of 
    charismania that you probably have, fear is the furthest reaction in my
    mind.  
    
    Obviously not everyone in here has personally experienced the "gifts"
    from 1 Corinthians 12 like we have.  The Bible tells us that the Father
    gives good gifts to His children.  Why have we experienced this and not
    them?  I maintain that it's because 1 Corinthians 12 talks of
    manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  The word "gifts" isn't even in the
    original Greek.  Romans 12 contains the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.  
    
    I'd really like to see your explanation on why so many of God's
    children don't experience the "gifts" (as you call them) in 
    1 Corinthians 12.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Charismania encompasses what separates the Pentecoastal type churches
    from the Baptists/Methodists/Lutherans/etc. of the world and are pretty
    much in 1 Corinthians 12.

    /Greg,
    
    Why do you think that by adhering to God's commandment regarding a
    "Shephard/Pastor" isn't part of "yourself"?
    
    

 Please take personal debates to mail.





 Jim Co-mod

 Several notes containing personal debates between noters have been
 hidden. 




 Jim

	This topic has become anything but edifying. Could we try and bring it
back into line?


Glen

    >    	Do you now understand why I regard what you wrote as 'bigoted'?
    
    Ok I understand, but it wasn't meant that way.  Now answer the question ;-)

    >                              -< What question? >-
    
    Why don't all of God's children receive the "gifts" in 1 Corinthians 12
    when the Bible clearly says that the Father gives good gifts to His
    children?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
     how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to
     them that ask him?" Matthew 7:11  
    
    Greg, your basic reasons can be nailed down to these areas:
    
    1. Fear of God/Holy Spirit because of their fleshly problems.
    2. Distrust of God's vessel.
    3. Fear of exposed sin (pretty much the same as #1)
    4. Fear of Spiritual realm.
    5. They don't ask.
    6. They don't accept it by faith.
    
    According to the verse above, if 1 Corinthians 12 contain the gifts of
    the Holy Spirit, all they have to do is ask (as you state in #5). 
    Greg, do you remember Charlie Johnson?  He noted in here about 5+ years
    ago.  He met all your conditions: didn't have any fear, was totally
    open to it, asked for it, yet still never received it.  There are
    thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ just like him who desire
    and accept the gifts of the Spirit, but never receive them.  Why does
    this happen, Greg?  The verse above says God will provide these
    gifts/tools to help us in our Christian walk if we only ask.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

>    	for you???  If you are the one who says He is not Jehovah-Rapha,
>    	who heals all my disease, then as a gentleman, He is not going
>    	to force you to accept healing - even though He suffered 39
>    	stripes to _pay_ for it.
    
    small nit:  only the Jewish floggers were bound to the rule of 39
    lashes.  Jesus was flogged by the Romans and they weren't bound to that
    law.  Jesus most likely received more than that.
    
    As for the healing, Joni has asked for healing, had the faith for it, and 
    wasn't healed.  Thousands more like her have experienced this.  Paul
    and Job experienced it.  Does Isaiah 53:5 refer to physical or
    spiritual healing?  I say spiritual.  Jesus Christ didn't promise our
    lives of Christians would be a perfect, healthy bowl of cherries.  
    
    Mike

    Re .48
    
    I have some differing beliefs on some of the ideas expressed.  It comes
    down to Biblical interpretation.  There have been many discussions
    about "Rightly dividing the word".  There were some good ideas
    expressed this morning in note 460.18 by Barry Dysert.
    In his book "Lifetime Guarantee" Bill Gilham has a chapter entitled
    "Leftly dividing the word".  He uses an analogy of walking down a road.  
    Grace is on the left and law is on the right.  In interpreting a
    particular scripture a person can either turn to the left, interpreting
    the scripture in light of God's grace.  The other option is to turn to
    the right interpreting the scripture in light of the law.  Since its
    very clear that we are no longer under the law, I choose to interpret
    the scripture in light of God's grace.
    
    I wanted to make a couple of additional comments and highlight some of the 
    differences I have in order to present another view.
    
    >who, as we know, eschews sin.  Some people, I think, are
    >concerned that their life is not an accurate reflection
    >of Jesus, and feel that they need to work on those things
    >which God has given them to do, and work on cleaning up
    >their lives, ( with God's help ), before approaching the
    >throne of grace for the Gifts.  To approach God is an
    >awesome thing because He is so incomprehensibly powerful.
    
    I agree that, unfortunately there are times when children of God don't feel
    worthy to come before the throne of God.  The bible makes it very clear 
    that we come before the throne in Christ's righteous, not our own
    however.  In fact the times when we feel most unworthy to come before
    Him are often the times when we need Him the most.  
    
    Heb  4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace,
    that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    
    Eph  3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by
    the faith of him.
    
    >If the person is mighty in the Holy SPirit, and has extremely strong power 
    >gifts, or faith, 
    >Faith is sort of like a very strong arm which grabs things and won't let 
    >go.
    
    I don't believe the AMOUNT of our faith has anything to do with what
    God does or doesn't do.  Scripture says that if you have the "faith of
    a mustard seed".  We don't need much faith.  It's not our faith but the
    OBJECT of our faith.  It would take much more faith to take a cross
    country trip in an old beat up car than it would to take the same trip
    in a brand new luxury car.  God is awesome!  All we need to do is to
    trust God by listening to His voice within and responding to His voice.
    
    >with in stepping into the spiritual.  We know about how
    >to eat, and sleep, and hug people, and smile, and share,
    >and do things for other people, and how to share good 
    >times and feelings, and things like that.  But there is
    >something _eternal_ about the spiritual realm. Something
    >which transcends time.
    
    We tend to categorize our lives into separate compartments.  When I'm
    at church singing praise songs- I'm being spiritual, when I'm pushing
    the kids on the swing set - I'm into the secular.  I'm coming to believe
    that God doesn't see things this way.  He lives with us!  Everything we
    do is spiritual.  I'm being just as spiritual playing softball or
    visiting my grandmother at the nursing home as when God is doing some
    great miracle through my life.  The thing is - allowing Christ to live
    through me.  I agree that the spiritual realm is eternal.  I think that
    Jesus hugging my kids through me is part of that spiritual realm.
    
    Let me pose a retorical question.  Remember the story of when Jesus and His
    disciples were out on the sea.  The sea became rough and the disciples
    became afraid.  They woke Jesus up and pleaded with Him to save them. 
    Jesus calmed the storm.  My question is:  Did it take more faith for
    Jesus to sleep (aware that His Father loved Jesus deeply and was in control
    of the situation) or to calm the sea?  I believe it took just as much 
    faith to sleep through the storm as it did to calm the sea.  I believe 
    Jesus calmed the sea for the disciples benefit.  Does it take more faith 
    to walk with Christ when Christ performs a great miracle or to trust
    Him as we are going through a storm?
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
                     

    Mike,
    
    Please read Matthew 8:16-17 and tell me where in the book of Isaiah
    Matthew was quoting.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kent
    

    Kent, thanks for pointing that out.  Obviously it points to Isaiah
    53:4-5.  So the healing provided through Jesus is physical and
    spiritual.  Now we just need to know why Paul and Job weren't healed.
    
    Mike

    
    	Hi Mike,
    			The thorn in Paul's flesh was also called a 
    	messenger (angel) of Satan.  There is a complete treatise on 
    	why it was an angelic enemy rather than an actual physical 
    	infirmity in the book "Christ, The Healer", by Bosworth.
    	The book also dedicates a complete chapter to the Jehovah
    	names, including 'Jehovah-Rapha'.  Incidentally, Jehovah is
    	"Redemptive God" - in other words, He is Jesus.
    
    			In the case of Job, God did not cause the 
    	affliction, but rather permitted it as a test.  It must also
    	be pointed out that Job was not under any specific covenant
    	protection regarding healing.  There are Old Covenant 
    	protections listed in Deuteronomy 28, Exodus 15:26.  There
    	are New Covenant protections such as Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter 2:24, 
    	Matt. 8:17.  Now, Psalm 103, Proverbs 4:20-22, Psalm 107:20 
    	are nicely juxtapositioned to assist in a gracious transistion
    	from the old to a newer and better covenant.
    
    								/Greg

    Greg,
    
    Just a minor nit.  In the Hebrew, God is NOT called Jehovah Rapha.  He
    is called Jehovah Rapheka.  The first is 'The One who is our health'
    and the second is 'The One who is our healer'.  Same word, different
    form.
    
    Kent
    

    
    	Also, Mike-
    				Regarding alleged exceptions....
    		You need to beware of a common problem that I have
    		seen among men, and that is to try to inductively
    		conclude that God does not honor his word based 
    		upon a fragmentary, partial, incomplete and perhaps
    		biased perspective of fact.  God does not judge by
    		appearances.  He is very thorough.  Very circum-
    		spect.  And He is flawless in His ways.  Therefore,
    		when He does something, or does not do something,
    		then there are reasons.  Those reasons are always
    		in perfect compliance with His Word.  Also, even
    		were we to try to judge these people/incidences,
    		issues that you bring up, we would probably end 
    		up looking like Job's three friends who could not
    		effectively analyze Job's situation, and ended up
    		having to repent.   To say that God will not honor
    		His Word is penultimate to calling Him a liar, and
    		that is a no-no.  Paw spanks for that!!!!!
    
    								/Greg

    
    
    re: .49 .50
    
    >Think about it.  If you do not expect it,  if you do not ask for it,
    >if you don't thank Him for it, then you should not expect it.
    
    This sounds real close to New Age to me!  
    
    "then you should not expect it."  Greg I think an understanding of the
    grace of God would circumvent this statement.
    
    > a principle at work there; a law of contagion.
    
     Interesting concept, but founded upon what?!?!?! I have never heard of
    such a law.  Do you make this up as you go? 
    
    >a 'body prayer' can help to move the hand of God, whereas an individual 
    >prayer might not make it.
            
      Oh so God needs our help to move his hand? And a "body prayer" is the
    answer here in this scenario.  The 'ol body prayer trick eh?
    
     I've really heard enough of this dribble.  A caution to new-Christians
    that read here is to seek God, and not look towards man.
    
    Dan
     
    

    	Dan, 
    			'You lust and you do not have.  You murder and
    		covet and cannot obtain.  You fight and war.  Yet you
    		do not have because you do not ask.
    
    			You ask and do not receive because you ask
    		amiss that you may spend it on your pleasures.'
    
    							James 4:2,3
    
    		So, Brother James agrees with me.  Do you think that
    	he is a New Ager?!
    						:-)
    								/Greg

      Hi,
    
        The main gift I want to receive is Christ my Righteoussness.
        As I said a few times before, I am unwilling to receive some
        of what is discussed here simply because I do not believe they
        are gifts of God in the first place.  That's my reason and I
        expounded on the basis for this in a previous topic.
    
        But, anyway, the gift I want more than anything else, is His
        love manifested in my own heart.
    
        I want the gift of loving like Jesus loves all the time.
    
        And I would prefer that this gift was given more emphasis.
    
                                        God Bless You All,
    
                                        Tony

    
    Context Greg, context.

RE .46 by Greg

Greg, my questions have been answered in the first few notes in this topic and
I thank you and others for answering my questions.  .46 also makes perfect
sense to me.

While you have heard very little about cult power, including healing, I
constantly hear it in  my daily life and it is happening to the people around
me, immediately  outside my Christian circle.   I did not learn any of these
things from any book, nor I have any cult-book in my house.   For example, there
is a buddhist temple (not the main stream buddhism, but very powerful) very
close to where I live(Redmond, WA) has great influence, with this kind of power,
on thousands(or more) of people  around the world.  Because of this, a Christian
brother from LA and another brother from a church in the neighboring city have
been called by God to establish a church in this area.  It took them half a
year, experenced a lot of adversities, they say  sourced from this temple,
finally established it with attendance now  approximately 50.  Our church is
quite aware all of these cult forces and is extremely careful about sources from
any spiritual power.  Verification all power against Bible is the primary way to
deal with it. I also think to know enemy is also very important. Someone
recommended "The Latent power of soul" by Watchman Nee that I think is a booklet
well worth reading. 

Wally

    Tony, I used to think as Greg, but I no longer believe 1 Corinthians 12
    speaks of "gifts" of the Holy Spirit.  Romans 12 describes the Gifts of
    the Holy Spirit.  The word "gifts" is not even in the Greek for 
    1 Corinthians 12, these are manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  The
    Holy Spirit manifests them as He deems appropriate to empower each believer
    in their Romans 12 Gift.  This is why not every believer, those full of
    faith, having no fear, continually asking, do not receive the "gifts"
    of 1 Corinthians 12.  
    
    God has blessed each believer with one (Paul always describes them in
    the singular - i.e., a teacher is not also a prophet) of the gifts in 
    Romans 12.  When a believer has the gift of giving, the Holy Spirit may
    manifest upon them discernment so that they are wise stewards of God's
    money.  A prophet may receive a word of knowledge from the Holy Spirit
    so God may speak to His people through them.  Likewise, a person with
    the gift of service may speak in tongues and give the interpretation so
    that the body of Christ may be edified.  Any manifestation can come
    upon any believer as the Holy Spirit wishes.
    
    This is not only Biblical, it can also be seen in action in churches
    all over the world.  It also explains why some of the best Christians
    around don't speak in tongues.
    
    Mike

	Mike,
	At our woman's retreat this year, we covered the gifts of
	Romans 12.

	We were given a list that described the different gifts, and
	asked to rank them as they pertained to us.  Then, the names
	of the gifts were provided (matching to the definitions).  I
	had a particularly hard time with the ranking, as three definitions
	vied for #1 on my list.  I kept crossing out 1,2 and 3 and re-ordering
	them.  Finally, I raised my hand and told the leader that I
	could not complete it, and explained my dilemna.

	She told me that discussed the same thing with her husband
	(who is a pastor), and he said that often the gifts come in
	groups of three, and that it can be difficult to separate which
	one is the dominant gift in an individual, though over time it
	may become more apparent.

	Of course, I can't support this with scripture, but I thought
	it was interesting.

	Karen

    Karen, we studied this all last winter and I've seen some of the same
    things.  Some can easily determine their gift by examining their
    actions and what they enjoy most; others have a little difficulty.  
    
    What's even more interesting is how it affects relationships.  For
    example, a gift of prophecy person shouldn't marry a gift of mercy
    person ;-)  Prophets tend to be outspoken, bold, brutally honest (even
    when they shouldn't be).  The Merciful wouldn't say anything to offend
    someone, whether it's truth or not.
    
    An analogy is where a youngster breaks a window while playing ball.  
    
    - a Prophet would probably demand to know the truth on who caused the
      broken window and scold the youngster for breaking the window.
    - the Servant will repair/replace the window.
    - the Teacher will show the youngster how to properly bat and throw so
      it doesn't happen again.
    - the Exhorter will encourage the youngster to try harder next time.
    - the Giver will probably pay for the new window and maybe buy a new ball.
    - the Leader will lead the youngster to play ball in another area away
      from the houses.
    - the Merciful will help the youngster re-focus after being scolded by
      the prophet, and probably offer to help pack up his gear and move them
      to the field away from the homes.
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

    Uh oh
    
    J. sounds like Mr. Prophet and I sound a lot like Mrs. Mercy.
    
    But, it works for us.  8*)
    
    Pam

    re .66
    
    > What's even more interesting is how it affects relationships.  For
    > example, a gift of prophecy person shouldn't marry a gift of mercy
    > person ;-) 
    
    I don't know if I agree with this one.  It goes back to the old
    "opposites attract" saying.  I believe that many times God puts people
    together who have different gifts, personalities, etc. in order to build 
    each other up and to strengthen each other (iron sharpens iron).  People
    with the gift of Prophesy in many cases need to learn to be more
    merciful and vice versa.
    
    I also believe we can have more than one gift, some are just more
    prominant that others.
    
    Just my .02 worth
    
    Bing

>    I also believe we can have more than one gift, some are just more
>    prominant that others.
    
    Try a word study on NT's use of the word "gift" and you'll see he
    uses it in the singular.  Here are some examples:
    
    1 Corinthians 7:7  "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But 
    every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another 
    after that."
    
    1 Peter 4:10  "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the 
    same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."
    
    1 Timothy 4:14  "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given 
    thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
    
    2 Corinthians 1:11  "Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for 
    the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be 
    given by many on our behalf."
    
    2 Corinthians 8:4  "Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive 
    the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the
    saints."
    
    2 Corinthians 9:15  "Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift."
    
    2 Timothy 1:6  "Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up 
    the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands."
    
    Ephesians 3:7  "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of 
    the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."
                                                       
    Philippians 4:17  "Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that 
    may abound to your account."  
    
    Romans 1:11  "For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some 
    spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;"

You are correct; the gift of the Holy Spirit is singular; it is known as
the seven-fold gift of the Holy Ghost; it is not seven separate gifts but
one gift with seven parts: Reverence, Adoration, Wisdom, Understanding,
Knowledge, Counsel, and Divine Strength.

This gift brings forth the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.  See
Galatians 5:22-23.

/john

>You are correct; the gift of the Holy Spirit is singular; it is known as
>the seven-fold gift of the Holy Ghost; it is not seven separate gifts but
>one gift with seven parts: Reverence, Adoration, Wisdom, Understanding,
>Knowledge, Counsel, and Divine Strength.
    
    this is new to me.  Where in the Bible is this?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

(we recite this Scripture every week)


very very interesting ---- a linking of the seven-fold Spirit of God from Isaiah
and the gifts of the Spirit -- 

why wouldn't the Spirit give to us the very same qualities and essence
that He is?


something to think about


Bob

Hi,

personal quirk time, again :-)  I believe that there is a significant differ-
ence between the gift of prophecy, and the ministry of Prophet.  

The gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 are meant for all, and are distributed by
the Holy Spirit as *He* sees fit.  If He wants to give you all nine of them at
one time, then so be it.  But, don't be too disappointed when He gives them to
someone else next week, and you have to "sit one out".  The Holy Spirit uses
them at specific gatherings to edify those present, ie they are limited in 
scope to that gathering.

The 1 Corinthians 12 gifts belong to the Holy Spirit.  It's incorrect for us
to claim to "have" one of them, since that would imply ownership.  But, it is
a great privilege to be used by the Holy Spirit to manifest one of *His* gifts.

Also, since they belong to the Holy Spirit and not the saint, they will not
have any affect on the personality of the vessel used, nor is the Holy Spirit
limited to particular personality types when distributing them.  Any saint at
a gathering can be used, and many times the most edifying prophecies at a
gathering come from the gentlest, most merciful, people.  (as a side note,
corrective, or condemning, prophecies do not fit into the category of the 
gifts of the Holy Spirit, see 1 Cor. 14:3)

The Prophet, however, is one of the persons mentioned in Eph. 4.  Jesus gave
these people to the church in order to equip the saints.  These people (or
ministries) will continue to function until the saints reach the unity of the
Faith and the measure of the stature (maturity) of Christ.  ie Until they are 
no longer children being tossed to and fro.  (see also 1 Cor. 13:8-13 where 
Paul teaches that the gifts in 1 Cor. 12, like those in Ephesians, are only
going to be in effect until we, the saints, become men, or adults.  When that
happens, we will put away childish things [like seeing through a glass dark-
ly, and only knowing/prophesying in part] and put on maturity, ie "but then 
shall I know even as also I am known")

A person who has a permanently attached dark cloud hanging over his head, who
is tenacious when it comes to "truth", and who tends to offend just about
everybody he/she talks to, is *not*, by definition, a Prophet.  Nor is it 
correct to assume that a Prophet has to be that way.  The ministries in Eph-
esians are all different expressions of Christ, and those who minister in one
(or more) of them must seek to express Christ (His love, compassion, zeal,
character, etc) as they minister.  ie. They shouldn't blame their gift for 
their lack of character.

Rob

      re: .66
    
      Hi Mike,
    
        Just to offer a different idea...
    
        Jesus wants to make us like Him.  He calls us to walk even 
        as He walked.  We are exhorted to understand the dimensions
        of agape that we can be filled with all the fulness of God.
        Collossians says the mystery of God is Christ in you, the
        hope of glory.  Revelations looks forward to a time when the
        mystery of God is finished; that means then a certain finishing
        of the manifestation of Christ in His believers has taken
        place.
    
        My point?
    
        Jesus knew exactly what to say because He was so open to His
        Father.  His heart was so clear and open to the wooings of the
        Spirit that He handled every situation/circumstance perfectly.
    
        I can only take your reply one way.  That is that there is a
        perfect response to make for EVERY situation and the degree to
        which we fall short of that perfect response is proportional to
        the degree to which our exercizing of faith falls short of the
        ideal (perfect).
    
        Whatever is not of faith is sin and all have sinned and fallen
        short of the glory of God.
    
        The only reason people responded in any way less than perfect
        is because our faith is less than perfect, not because of the
        particular gift a person may have.  For if one's faith was perfect,
        it must follow that such a person would say just the right thing
        in just the right way in every circumstance.
    
        One nit I see in this is that this would seem to imply that we
        will all be clones of each other.  Oh I'm sure we will all have
        our own individuality and thus how we respond will bear out
        our own individualities.  But, in recognition of this, I still 
        do not see it as possible that if faith is perfect, one will
        not respond perfectly to a situation and that the gifts one might
        have does not imply needing to respond in a less than perfect
        way.   For example, the tendencies of a prophet (if out of place)
        and yet exercized is nothing but sin.  Sometimes it is just plain
        wrong to be bold or outspoken or brutally honest.  Prophets, by
        virtue of being prophets or of having characteristics which you
        suggets are exemplary of prophets need not exercize those charac-
        teristics, but can through Christ crucify the flesh with its lusts.
    
                                                         Tony
                                                                           

 Colossians (one "L")

 Revelation (no "s")




Jim

    I may have exaggerated a little on the prophet description, but
    boldness of character isn't always a flaw.  Anyway, I think what Rob
    entered was well put.
    
    As for relationships, I'm pretty sure I put a smiley face about my
    comments about some people not being well "matched."  If not, I should
    have.  I can see how the opposites work in my own marriage.  My wife
    has a real gentle, calming spirit.  She keeps me in line all the time
    ;-)

    Cracks that whip too I might add! :-) :-)  Shape up or ship out Heiser!
    :-) :-)

    Now now, Morales, that wouldn't be very gentle would it?

    >As for relationships, I'm pretty sure I put a smiley face about my
    >comments about some people not being well "matched."  If not, I should
    >have.  I can see how the opposites work in my own marriage.  My wife
    >has a real gentle, calming spirit.  She keeps me in line all the time
    
    As Gilda Radner use to say- "Never Mind". 8^)
    
    Bing
    

    Well it is my personal name... :-)
    

>	Have you ever seen or heard of anyone actually getting all nine gifts 
>	of the Spirit at one time? 
    
    I know of 1 person who the Holy Spirit has manifested Himself upon the
    believer in all 9 manifestations, but not all at once.

    I thought he said the person received them at different times.

    Thought so.

Re. .81 Greg,

You totally missed my point.  Which was: should the Holy Spirit decide to give
all nine gifts to anyone one person, at any one time, then that's totally up
to the Holy Spirit.  No, I have never seen anyone manifest all of the gifts of
the Spirit, but since that wasn't what I was trying to say, then it's totally
irrelevant if the Holy Spirit has, or hasn't.

The whole section of scripture in 1 Corinthians 11:1-14:40 is dealing with the
church gathering in Corinth.  This is not my private interpretation, but simply
reading scripture.  Perhaps you could show me scripture proving that the gifts
from 1 Corinthians 12 are used outside of the gathering of the saints.  I don't
know of any teaching on those gifts besides 1 Corinthians 12, and that is, as I
said, dealing with the gathering of the saints.

You quoted:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That section of scripture is dealing with the election of the nation of Israel
and has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in Corinthians.
Pulling this verse out of context to support the idea that a saint can "own"
one of the 1 Corinthian 12 gifts, is what I call "private interpretation".

You also quoted:

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above
all heavens, that he might fill all things,) 4:11 And he gave some, apostles;
and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;...

Again, this is dealing with the so-called five-fold ministry, and has no bearing
on the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12.  However, I would agree with you, that
since Jesus gave these men/ministries, one could assume that the ministry is a
part of who that person is.  But, it still has nothing to do with the gifts of
the Spirit, and is *your* private interpretation.

You asked: You've never received correction through any of the prophetic gifts?

While it may seem strange to you that someone would not be corrected via a
prophesy, I see that as perfect agreement with:

     1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edifica-
     tion, and exhortation, and comfort.

According to Paul, the prophetic gift in the gathering of the saints is not to
be abused for rebuke, or correction.  The closest that would come would be ex-
hortation, which is a "pulling alongside".  But, I think that the problem may
be arising from a couple of misconceptions.

Misconception #1:  The gift of prophecy listed in Corinthians is equal to the
	ministry of Prophet from Ephesians 4.

I attempted in my reply to show that there is a clear distinction between these
two things.  However, I did not get into any great detail on either.  I would
agree with you that I expect a Prophet, in his ministry to the Body of Christ,
to speak correction, and even condemnation.  I would also expect him to do it
first to the Presbytery, or Elders.  After having done that, and it is clear 
to the ruling "body" of the local church, then I would expect the prophet to 
speak before the congregation.

Which brings up the point: should a prophet speak condemnation/correction to
the body without having confered with the Elders, he is out of line.  This is
my interpretation, but I believe that the principle is supported throughout
scripture, ie to whom much is given, from him much will be required.  The Elders
have the responsibility to govern/rule the body, it is not the Prophets job to
circumvent their authority.  Although a Prophet does have a responsibility be-
fore God that, if the Elders refuse to listen (see several Kings in the O.T.),
the Prophet, if directed so by God, should take the matter directly to the 
people.

Misconception #2:  you are talking about the area of "personal" prophesy, and
	I am dealing only with *corporate* expressions.

But, here too, I would expect nothing more than exhortation from the one giving
the prophesy.  Whether personally, (where *you* might give the person prophesy-
ing more leeway than I might), or corporately, 1 Corinthians 14:3 is the guid-
ing principle.  I would not tolerate someone abusing the gift of prophecy to
condemn, or correct, personally, or corporately.  This is an area where the
Elders *must* be involved.

The whole area of "personal" prophesy is a "pandora's box".  The manipulative
potential in the words: "the Lord would speak to you..." is tremendous.  This
area cannot be taken lightly.  Since such prophesies tend to contain direction
and correction, they *must* be screened.  I know that you won't agree with me
on this one, but we may just have to agree to disagree.  Especially since I
see a potential for someone, claiming to speak prophetically, usurping or
undermining the authority in the church, whether this be on an individual, or
corporate level.

More in the next reply....

Greg, I think that you need to re-read 1 Corinthians 13.  In case you don't 
have a Bible handy, here is the King James version for verses 8-13 with my
comments:

     13:8 Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies,
     they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
     whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Love will never fail, but these things (and Paul is in the middle of a discourse
on the gifts of the Spirit) will fail/cease/vanish.

     13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
     13:10 But when that which is  perfect  is  come,  then  that
     which is in part shall be done away.

The reason they will is: a time is coming when these things, as wonderful as
the gifts may be, will no longer be necessary.  The gifts are, at best, only
a temporary, imperfect, solution.  Perfection is coming (I don't want to get
into a discussion of the perfection of the saint in this topic, but would be
glad to share my views on it elsewhere), and when it comes, all the imperfec-
tions, including the gifts, will no longer be necessary.

     13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child,  I  understood
     as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I
     put away childish things.
     13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then  face
     to  face;  now I know in part; but then shall I know even as
     also I am known.
     13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but
     the greatest of these is charity.

To better illustrate, perhaps a table:

	Childish				Adult
	--------				-----

	speaking as child			speaking as adult (implied)
	understanding as child			understanding as adult (implied)
	thought as child			think as adult (implied)

	see through glass darkly		see face to face (clearly, no
							glass)

	know in part				know as I am known (perfectly,
							implication: we will
							know God as perfectly
							as He knows us)

Now to Ephesians (also KJV):

     4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far
     above all heavens, that he might fill all things,)
     4:11 And he gave some, apostles;  and  some,  prophets;  and
     some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
     4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work  of  the
     ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
     4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of  the
     knowledge  of  the  Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the
     measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
     4:14 That we henceforth be no more children  tossed  to  and
     fro,  and  carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the
     sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie  in
     wait to deceive;
     4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in
     all things, which is the head, even Christ;
     4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and com-
     pacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the
     effectual working in the measure of every part,  maketh  in-
     crease of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I put in the whole section for continuity.  Paul says that Apostles, etc. were
given for:

	1)  Perfecting of the saints that they might do the work of the ministry
	    (an equipping function, each minister sharing specific aspects of
	     Christ's person with the body, in order to equip the body fully)

	2)  The edifying of the Body of Christ.  Here the main difference in
	    design to the 1 Corinthians 12 gifts, these are designed to edify
	    the Church, ie the Body of Christ world-wide.

These ministries will be there, or Christ will continue to give Apostles, etc.,
until (Eph 4:13,14):

	1)  We, the whole Body of Christ, reach the unity of the faith

	2)  We have the knowledge *of* the Son of God, ie perfect knowledge
	    (we know as we are known)

	3)  We are perfected, and reach the maturity of Christ

	4)  We are no longer children who, because of their immaturity, get
	    tossed about by winds of doctrine from deceitful men

So, you may say that I am wrong, but I believe that the gifts of the Spirit 
were given for the gathering of saints.  They serve to meet the needs of 
the gathering, to edify and comfort those gathered.  The ministries in Ephe-
sians were given by Christ for ministry to the Body of Christ world wide.  
All of these gifts and ministries will cease to have a function when the 
Church of Christ, the world-wide Body of believers, reaches perfection.  At 
which time all of these things will cease to have a useful function.

The only thing remaining to argue about is: when do we reach perfection, and
how?  But, that's another topic.

Rob

      re: -1
    
      EXCELLENT REPLY ROB!!!
    
      Who needs the gifts at the time people are able to see God
      "without a veil" and live and thus not need any human mediators!
      Absolutely, the gifts will cease when people are finally able
      to go _straight to God_ and hear what they need to hear straight
      from him!
    
      At that time, there will be two groups.  Those sealed with the
      name (character) of Christ and those sealed with the mark of the
      beast.  At that time, there will be many miracles, but they will
      be from that 'other' group.  One group's testimony will be the
      testimony of Jesus.  They'll follow the Lamb anywhere.  And people
      will see that they would.
    
                                                    Thanks!,
    
                                                    Tony

Re .89 Tony,

I'm not so sure we would agree on all of the "surrounding" events.  For ex-
ample, I believe that there will be more than two groups, and that the then
glorified church will also be a "powerful" (showing forth the power and glory
of God) church.  Which does not detract from the fact that the anti-christ 
will also be "doing his thing".

Rob

    the perfect coming in 1 Corinthians 10:13 would seem to be Jesus Christ
    to me.  What else is the perfect?  Only Jesus.  As Greg said in a
    roundabout way, we'll see God face-to-face then.
    
    "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

>	and defense of God, I quite understand what he means.  He points
>	out that some ministers preach totally upon emotion, bravado, 
>	and working up the crowd, and their work is not Spirit-directed
>	but psychic.  They can make people cry, and draw a great altar
>	call, - but they are not really submitted to the Holy SPirit of
>	God.  On this point, we quite agree.
    
    Sounds like the Faith Movement trendsetters  ;-)
    
>			His premise is that Adam was > 1,000,000 more
>	powerful than people today, because he had to be fully empowered
>	by God to 'keep the Garden', to subdue, replenish, etc., and 
    
    Interesting view.  Benny Hinn also states something similar to this
    based on the verse that says Adam had dominion over all the earth. 
    Hinn claims Adam could fly to the moon and swim with the fish like some
    supernatural superman.
    
    Mike

     Reply -1    Reminds me of a song...
    
    
    	Think about His love
    	Think about His goodness
    	Think about His Grace that brought us through
    	For as high as the heaven above, so great is the measure of our
    	Fathers love
    	Great is the measure of our Fathers love
    
    					Fonz

    
    
    First of all
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Snarf !!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    
      Greg 
      the title of your note in .97 reminded me of that song , that's all
    i wanted to say......But the answer to your question is ::
    							the evil report
    
    					Fonz
    

    HEY !!!!!
    
      Like what happen to notes .96,.97 ??????
    
    				Fonz
    

    Again, I was replying to the title of note .97= Think about it
    
    It reminded me of a worship song we sing at church......shesh.........
    
    
    
    					Fonz

    
    
    Time out dude !!! I think you have me confused with someone else who is
    noting.........Again I came in to comment of how the title of your note
    in .97 = Think about it, reminded me of a song we sing at church, and
    of course for the Snarf !! Please reread my notes, the only reason I 
    responded to your question was because I thought it to be a very simple
    answer ......
    
    
    					
    Fonz_who_will_not_come_in_for_a_Snarf_again...........maybe :*)

    There is more than one way to look at your analogy.  Just because you
    are in the Faith movement doesn't mean the 2 spies that were doing
    God's Will apply to you.  Some of those in that movement could be part
    of the 10, just as easily as those outside of the movement could be
    part of the 2.
    
    The moral of this lesson is to follow God's Word - ALWAYS!  Compare the
    spies' reports with the will of God according to His Word (i.e., be
    like the Bereans and check every one of their words against His Word). 
    The Israelites didn't and were deceived.
    
    Mike

    I'm on God's side, Greg.  I've been down that road and didn't learn
    much, and it wasn't because I wasn't listening to the teaching.  There
    wasn't any, just preaching.  I did learn to speak in tongues though.  
    Now I'm learning boat-loads about God's Word because of some great
    teaching.  Now I can more adequately defend my faith as well as speak
    in tongues.  I also know enough now when people in the ministry, claiming 
    to be inspired, aren't sticking to God's Word.
    
    Mike

Hi Greg,

Yeah, I think we're pretty close.  The only difference probably comes from the
way I understand Mark 16, here for your convenience:

     16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the  world,  and
     preach the gospel to every creature.
     16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;  but
     he that believeth not shall be damned.
     16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In  my
     name  shall  they cast out devils; they shall speak with new
     tongues;
     16:18 They shall take up serpents; and  if  they  drink  any
     deadly  thing,  it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands
     on the sick, and they shall recover.
     16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto  them,  he  was
     received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
     16:20 And they went forth, and  preached  every  where,  the
     Lord  working  with them, and confirming the word with signs
     following. Amen.

Jesus tells us that these signs will follow those who believe (17a).  So,
the list in your note: casting out demons, healing, not being hurt by the
snake, etc., are signs and not gifts.

You might say that I'm splitting hairs, but I believe there is an essential 
difference.  The signs follow *all* believers as they go and preach the Gospel;
the gifts are distributed by the Holy Spirit when the saints gather.  The 
signs prove to unbelievers that the power of the Almighty God rests upon the
saints; the gifts are for the edification of the believers as they gather
together.  The signs have been promised to all spirit-filled believers (my
personal conviction), so you can "claim" them; the gifts belong to the Holy
Spirit, and we praise Him when he uses us, but we can't claim ownership.

Rob

    Greg,
    
    (not speaking for Mike here, just my two shekels...)
    
    Have you read "Christianity in Crisis"?
    
    It is important to be like the Bereans (see Acts) who didn't even take
    Paul at his word; but "searched the Scriptures to see if these things
    were true".
    
    Moreover, I saw (with my own eyes) Benny Hinn "minister" to a huge
    throng, and once the emotional frenzy was peeled back, there was very
    little Scripture; what was presented was out of context, and sadly,
    very little if ANY glorification of G-d.
    
    I also saw (with my own eyes) Benny Hinn apologize for this kind of
    foolishness during an interview with Pat Robertson.  Apparently, even
    Mr. Hinn recognized that he was way off base.  He specifically asked
    people to forgive him for trying to make a show out of the Spirit and
    for getting far afield from the Word.
    
    That's a good start - let's pray for fruit....
    
    Steve

    
    
    reply -1
    
    This reminds me of a song:
    
     Come Holy Spirit......oops....I'd better not...............:^) !!
    
    					Fonz

    Greg,
    
    I know that your reply was directed at Mike and not me but I feel I 
    need to add something here.
    
    I have read both "Good Morning, Holy Spirit" and "The Anointing".  From 
    an experiencial perspective they are both fascinating.  From a 
    theological perspective they are both weakly defensed.  That is not to 
    say that Benny Hinn is completely wrong but that he is not a 
    theologian, which he admits.  I first met Benny Hinn 14 years ago in 
    South Carolina.  He was an upcoming evangelist who God chose to use in 
    a mighty way.  His manner and speech was unassuming and ALL the glory 
    was given to God.  He spoke simply of his experience with the Holy 
    Spirit, much the same as he does in "Good Morning, Holy Spirit", and he 
    didn't presume to know something he didn't know.  Last year I went to 
    see him again at the Omni; to see an 'old friend'.  I admit that I 
    hadn't watched any of his television broadcasts and still haven't.  (As 
    a personal choice my family does not watch TV)  Somehow over the past 
    14 years Benny Hinn has become BENNY HINN (fanfare added in my mind).  
    What I saw in the Omni caused me great pain in my spirit.  I cried as I 
    watched the circus that went on.  I told my wife as we watched 
    thousands of people press the stage trying to get close to Benny Hinn, 
    "If they would press into Jesus as hard as they are to Benny Hinn then 
    they wouldn't need anything else."  Did people get healed and set free?  
    Absolutely.  But that in no way mitigates the disrespect for the 
    presence of God that I observed.  I saw thousands of people looking for 
    an experience, and angry if they didn't get it.  There is a danger, 
    when a man's ego grows in proportion to his ministry and that, at least 
    in part, is what has happened with Benny Hinn.  When the ministry 
    machine moves ahead or askew of God then there is bound to be problems.
    
    Benny's mentor, Kathryn Kuhlman experienced the same thing.  She made 
    the statement that if God was not with her she would never walk up the 
    stairs to the stage.  I believe that she meant it.  When she first 
    began she would walk out on stage and almost instantly the Spirit of 
    God began to move.  (For anyone else's benefit, Kathryn Kuhlman was not 
    a 'healer' and never claimed to be one)  As the years went on and the 
    ministry grew the machine began to take over.  Jamie Buckingham 
    recalled a party thrown by Kathryn Kuhlman to celebrate so many years 
    of ministry (I think it was 25).  To commemorate the event Kathryn had 
    a special coin minted to be presented to each guest.  On the front was 
    a picture of Kathryn Kuhlman and on the back was a picture of Jesus.  
    Jamie asked Kathryn if it wouldn't have been more appropriate if the 
    picture of Jesus had been on the front.  Kathryn had no response.  It 
    was indicative of the ministry.  Christ had decreased and Kathryn had 
    increased.  Toward the end of her ministry, and her life, it would take 
    nearly an hour before the anointing would come.  This is not an 
    indication that one has to "work up" the anointing but and indication 
    that one has to be in a submitted position so as to flow with the 
    direction of the Spirit.
    
    As for bloopers, I've made my share of them.  I taught nearly an entire 
    lesson replacing Timothy's name for Thomas.  Someone finally spoke up 
    and corrected it but up until then the congregation thought I had some 
    new revelation.  In some areas the CRI has given Benny Hinn a bum rap.  
    For example, I heard a tape recording on CRI's "Bible Answer Man" of Benny 
    Hinn making the comment, referring the reality of the presence of the 
    Holy Spirit, that it was *AS IF* he were sitting next to me in that 
    chair.  They mocked Benny Hinn sarcastically (not unlike the opening 
    chapter of "Christianity in Crisis") for allegedly saying that the Holy 
    Spirit was a tangible entity and sitting in the chair next to him.  You 
    had to really stretch to hear Benny say that.  Other comments Benny 
    Hinn has made are worthy of correction.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    

Re .111 Greg,

>	a.) prophesy can only affect the body to which a prophesy is spoken.
>	b.) prophesy can only be used to comfort, edify, exhort, ( ONLY ).

Sorry, but I don't recall ever saying that.  A believe that a Prophet can,
and will, speak prophesies to the Body of Christ, and thought that I made it
clear in an earlier reply that the Ephesians 4 ministries were to the church
world-wide, and Prophet *is* one of those ministries.  His prophesies are not
limited to comfort, edification and exhortation.  When speaking about prophesy,
I would agree with you, it is not limited to the local gathering, and it can
go beyond comfort, etc.  I was talking about the gift of prophesy as described
in 1 Corinthians 12 and not prophesy in and of itself.

>	c.) the gifts of the Spirit are exclusively for believer gatherings

On this one we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Although I believe God is
sovereign, and doubt that my doctrines will restrict Him in any way.

As far as Paul is concerned, I believe that God speaks to all of us in many 
different forms, dreams and visions being among them.  I would tend, in order
to be consistent :-), to put them in the category of personal revelation 
rather than the gift of prophesy.  But, here we may just differ on the termin-
ology used and not the principle involved.

Rob

      re: .115
    
      Hi Kent,
    
        I think I have always appreciated the spirit and the
        thoughtfulness of your replies.  That was a really 
        good reply.
    
                                          Thanks,
    
                                          Tony

    >c.) the gifts of the Spirit are exclusively for believer gatherings
    
    This verse popped up on my electronic daily scripture today:
    
    
    ...Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in
    gifts that build up the church.
    
                                            - 1 Corinthians 14:12
    
    
    Bing

    Re .114
    
    >Robert Tilton, Morris Cerullo, Ken Hagin, Benny Hinn, Norvel
    >Hayes, John Avanzini, Charles Capps, Fred Price
    
    I don't really care to listen to "The Bible Answer Man" just because it
    tends to be more negative than positive.  I do, however, agree with him
    on the prosperity doctrine.
    
    I don't care to listen to people like Robert Tilton and Fred Price
    because of their emphasis on money.  They are driving around in their
    luxury cars and living high on the hog in their beach houses, while
    telling their flocks that if only they had enough faith (notice the
    emphasis on AMOUNT of faith, instead of on God's awesomeness and
    faithfulness) they could be rich too.  The reason these guys are rich
    is because they are fleecing their flocks.  They are putting people in
    bondage by giving them the idea that there is something wrong with
    their faith, since they don't have a lot of richs.
    
    Jesus never had a place to lay his head.  Paul said that he had learned to 
    be content is all circumstances, whether in plenty or in want.  Our
    faith shouldn't be judged by our external circumstances, but rather our
    faith should be judged on whether we continue to seek to know God in the 
    midst of whatever our circumstances may be.
    
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing

 amen, Bing...






Jim

RE:                     <<< Note 538.124 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>

    
   >    	guessing about this ), I am sure that he is also doing alot of
   > 	things to support the body of Christ behind the scenes that we
   > 	just do not know about.  Why?  Because he is probably afraid of
   > 	losing his reward.  So, he is not going to tell you.  It is a
    


       hmmm...is fear of losing one's reward the proper motivation for
       good works?




     Jim

	

    Greg,
    
    Not sure if you read the whole note or not since you only made comment
    on part.  The point of my reply was to show a gradual transformation
    from the Benny Hinn I met 14 years ago the the one I observed last
    year (He will be in Atlanta again next week but I think I'll pass this
    time).  Whether or not he has pursued the money and glitz is
    irrelevent.  It's there now and he has to deal with it in a way that
    glorifies God.
    
    About 50 years ago Billy Graham was out on the "sawdust trail"
    preaching in tent revivals across the country.  During one of his
    earliest meetings the press took a picture of him as he left.  He was
    carrying the bags containing the evenings offering.  When he saw that
    picture the next day in the paper he was extremely grieved over it.  He
    determined at that moment to put himself and his staff on salary and to
    remove himself from the handling of the money.  Since that time his
    books have been open to audit and he publishes an annual financial
    statement.  It was not the money that was the issue it was how it
    *appeared* to the unbelieving public.  He knew that his life, public
    and private, was open to scrutiny by the world and he chose to avoid
    even the appearance of evil so that the name of Christ could be
    preached untarnished.  Paul knew that eating meat sacrificed to idols
    was nothing.  It had no effect on the believer BUT he said that if it
    made a single person stumble then he would never eat meat again.  
    
    Greg, you and I are responsible for how we *appear* to the world. 
    Benny Hinn is responsible for how he *appears* to the world.  It may
    mean that we have to measure our words a little more carefully before
    we say them (or type them).  
    
    In Him,
    
    Kent
    

>    			Have you read Benny Hinn's "The Anointing"?
>    	Have you read his book "Good Morning, Holy Spirit"?  Are
    
    I haven't by choice.  After seeing all that was "edited" out from the 
    original editions, I'm glad I haven't.  However, I occaisionally watch
    him on TV and have watched his video on the Tabernacle.  I started
    watching him again on TV after he issued his apologies for some of his
    doctrinal heresies.  He seems to have tone things down a little now. 
    The Tabernacle video was excellent and I only had 1 problem with
    something he said in there (said the goat hairs represented "Jesus
    becoming Sin for us."  I could be wrong, but I don't believe God's Word
    teaches Christ became literally Sin for us - i.e., on Satan's level. 
    Christ bore our sins, but didn't become it).  That Tabernacle is the
    way all men of God *should* *teach*!  He gets into the meat of the Word
    and shows us the Gospel is in the OT as well.  It's the kind of
    teaching I love and why I left a faith-type church for a church that
    teaches that way.  I was starving for God's Word.
    
>    	Why do you spread DOUBT about the man?  If you have a valid
    
    I don't spread doubt about him, I only mentioned that he had a similar
    (and false) view to Watchman Nee's on Adam.
    
>    	gripe against him, then is it not your responsibility to go
>    	to him and explain your problem in a spirit of love?  How
    
    Many have done that.  I don't have personal contact with him.  He has
    chosen to listen to many of those brothers with constructive criticism
    and has changed somewhat for the better.  It takes a big man to admit
    he's wrong, so at least he shows he's trying to do God's will.
    
>    	many preachers do you know that never made a 'blooper'?  Do
>    	you see only the bad in him?  
    
    I've seen pastors make mistakes on occaision.  They always apologize
    for it.  As for preachers, I haven't listened to one in a very long
    time.  The preachers I used to listen to made mistakes all the time and
    I can't recall any apologies.  Being the vessel of God is an awesome
    responsibility that many take too lightly.  You better not be mixing
    your flesh in with God's Word because you're accountable to Him and
    those you lead astray.  
        				
    If you have truly read all of "Christianity in Crisis," you simply
    can't whitewash the truth.  It was one of the most well-researched and
    highly documented books I've ever written.  There is even an audiotape
    available where you can hear these preachers' quotes for yourself.  I
    agree that Hank was a little too harsh at times, but that still doesn't
    change the truth.  These people seemed to think they weren't
    accountable to anyone and they were wrong.  God will not be mocked. 
    Also, Numbers 32:23 says, "But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have
    sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out."  As I
    said before, we have a responsibility to be as the Bereans and make
    sure God's Word is the final authority on all things.
    
>    	more preachers of the gospel.  Now, this woman has suffered a
>    	disservice because of the negative press because now she has
>    	seeds of doubt and fear regarding these ministries, and doesn't
>    	know whether or not she dares watch them. 
    
    She shouldn't fear them, but it's healthy to doubt those that lead the
    brethren astray and don't bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  
    
>    			I borrowed that book, and saw the most vicious,
>    	negative, trash reporting that I ever saw!!  It reminded me of
    
    Did you read with an open mind or did you come to this conclusion
    because it disagrees with you?  Did you check all the sources and
    footnotes?  Did you compare them to what God's Word says?  Like I said,
    Hank was harsh at times, but believers are doing themselves a
    disservice by following and supporting some of these "ministries."
    
>    	lives of others!  It was very evil reporting without any res-
>    	pect for the lives and relations of these people - or the peo-
>    	ple associated with their ministries. 
    
    I thought some of the quotes and doctrinal teachings were downright
    evil.  Especially Price's quote on God not being able to use handicapped
    people.  It was downright disgusting!  I guess when you look to man
    instead of God, this book would most certainly step on your toes.
    
>    			Now, I have read books by all of these
>    	ministers of the gospel.  I've listened to them, and scrupulously
>    	checked them out scripturally.  I have looked, and searched and
>    	compared against the Word of God, ( having read the Bible on an
>    	almost daily basis for many years, and gone through it many times
>    	before ).  And... I have found nothing radically off-track.  
    
    How about the way they humanize God and reduce His powers while
    simultaneously deify man and raise his powers?  What about the altering
    of Jesus' atonement?  What about the way they give more power and
    credit to Satan than they should?  Brother, these are all signs of
    cultic characteristics.  The Mormons humanize God and glorify man.  The
    Mormons and JW's strip Christ of his deity and significance of His
    atonement.  Pagans and witches give Satan more credit than he deserves. 
    While these "ministries" aren't as blatant, the flavor of some awful
    teaching is being subtlely slipped in.
    
>    				Yet... if I had tape recordings of
>    	everything your preacher(s) said on the fly in the middle of a
>    	sermon, and appropriated unto myself the liberty to take every-
>    	thing that they say out of context, without trying to understand
>    	what they really meant, or give them a chance to explain what they
>    	meant by going to them and asking them, or even to say, "Whoops,
>    	I made a slight mistake on that one", it would be very easy to
>    	throw out "negative press", fault-find, backbite, criticize, com-
>    	plain, build up fear and doubt against them, etc.  - And that is
    
    You said you read the book.  Obviously you haven't read the tens of
    pages of footnotes and documentation of sources, with direct quotes. 
    These men didn't "slip."  These are *repeated* and *continual* doctrinal
    teachings in error that were highlighted.  Come clean, Greg.  Did you
    read it or not?
    
>    	exactly what Hank Hannegraff has built his ministry around.  Trying
>    	to beat on other preachers, and create a feeding frenzy on fear,
>    	doubt, and ignorance.  Yet, you would easily excuse the mistakes
    
    does the Watchman of Ezekiel 33 create FUD?  I think you're vastly
    overstating the purpose of this book, probably because it stepped on
    your toes.  
    
>    				Frankly, I think alot of people however
>    	are trying to use this Hank Hannegraff CRI thing as an excuse for
>    	their NOT believing God for what His Word says.  I think it is an
>    	attempt to try to whitewash _doubt_ and give it a _semblance_ of
>    	integrity.  I say it is pretentious and corrupt.  You guys can
>    	buy into it, but I certainly will not.  
    
    Greg, that's not very Berean of you.  Why don't you take your own
    advice and study and contact Hank to show him where he's wrong?  Why
    don't you read the multiple Biblical references Hank provides to show
    where these men have strayed?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

RE:                     <<< Note 538.130 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>


>	I've read three books by Fred Price.  All of them were very good. 
>	Here is a man who built a huge stadium-sized church in the middle
>	of the poorest neighborhood of LA, - has helped countless people


      Who built the church??

>	love Fred Price.  Have you ever seen his video on the opening of
>	his Christian center?  He's a _brother_.  He does not deserve to 
>	be scandalized.   That is bad, Mike.  Bad!!



 *his* Christian center?  btw..why is it that many of these places carry
 the name "Christian center" rather than church?  Probably minor nit, but I've
 always wondered about that.





Jim

    >	Try reading 2 Cor. Chapter 5.
    
    I assume you mean verse 21.  It should be noted that the key phrase "to
    be" is italicized, thus it isn't in the original Greek.  Jesus Christ
    took our place for the judgement of *sin*.  He bore all our *sins*.  He 
    did not become *Sin*.  Notice the emphasis.
    
    >	Thanks a pantload, Mr. Hannegraff.  Any plans for a follow-up novel?
    
    novels are fiction.  This was a well-researched book, which is typical
    of CRI publications.  They don't leave much room for doubt.  When you
    think about it, Hank couldn't write a book like this any other way
    because of so many people that support those ministries.  He *HAD* to
    have down every possible fact to backup what he was writing.
    
>	I did not treat his book as if it were the Bible.  Furthermore,
>	I felt that the book added its own interpretations.
    
    I didn't ask you to treat it as the Bible.  No book deserves that. 
    What I'm saying is for you to checkout the sources.  If Hagin,
    Copeland, or Hinn are quoted as saying something heretical, it is your
    duty as their supporter to locate the source and listen for yourself.
    
>	I've read three books by Fred Price.  All of them were very good. 
    
    He seem to fall back on this a lot.  Greg, anyone can write a book. 
    You and I can even write a book, and we would pray that it will have some
    inspiration.  Like anything else though, you have to be watchful of the
    flesh.
    
>	Here is a man who built a huge stadium-sized church in the middle
>	of the poorest neighborhood of LA, - has helped countless people
    
    Exactly what I mean about humanizing God and deifying man.  Did God
    build this church or did Fred Price?
    
>	love Fred Price.  Have you ever seen his video on the opening of
>	his Christian center?  He's a _brother_.  He does not deserve to 
>	be scandalized.   That is bad, Mike.  Bad!!
    
    It is bad.  Galatians 6:1-8 tells us to gently rebuke our fallen
    brethren.  What's just as bad is telling people you don't allow sickness 
    in your home while your wife is dying of cancer.  This is bad too: 
    
    "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right?
    How can you glorify God?  How can He get glory when your body doesn't even 
    work?...What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside a body 
    where He can't see out through the windows and He can't hear with the 
    ears?  What makes you think the Holy Spirit wants to live inside of a 
    physical body where the limbs and the organs and the cells do not function 
    right?...And what makes you think He wants to live in a temple where He 
    can't see out of the eyes, and He can't walk with the feet, and He can't 
    move with the hand?...The only eyes that He has that are in the earth 
    realm are the eyes that are in the body.  If He can't see out of them then 
    God's gonna be limited... (Frederick K.C. Price, "Is God Glorified Through 
    Sickness?", audiotape #FP605).
                                                                     
    See what I mean?  "God's gonna be limited" by anything?!  The God who
    created the universe is gonna be limited?!  The omniscient,
    omnipresent, omnipotent God needs an itemized list to answer your
    prayers?!  They are limiting/humanizing God just as I said they were.
    
    Mike

    reply .132
    
    I love it !!!!!!!!!
    
       Had me rolling !!!!
    
    				Fonz

Re .119 Greg,

I agree with everything you said in .119, and see it as biblical and of God.
I just would have put a different label on those experiences, ie personal
revelation.  In other words, you are calling them gifts of the Spirit and I
would call them personal revelation.  The main difference being the scope.
The gifts are given to one person for the benefit of all gathered, and, like
Bing mentioned in .120, we should be seeking those gifts that build up the
church.

Personal revelation is just that, personal, and it's a totally different kettle
of fish.  Because it is personal, and has limited effects on the local church,
it also does not have the same limitations that the gifts do.  Whatever God
reveals to you personally, even if prophetic in the strictest sense, effects
you, and you alone.  Therefore, with the exception of our responsibility to
weigh-out even our personal revelations in light of God's written word, there
are no limitations to content.

Once someone stands up in front of the church, though, and says, "thus sayeth
the Lord...", I believe certain limitations take effect.  The limitations are
there for the protection of the body.  Those prophesies need to be edifying in
nature and content.

I sometimes wonder if we're talking about the same thing, but using different
terms.  I think you are taking offense at my choice of words, and missing the
intent of what I have been trying to say.

Rob

   Re 133  > He did not became *Sin*

   See note 80 for a lengthy discussion of this verse.

   The text in the Koine does in fact say that "He was made sin" without the 
   "to be" phrase, however without the "to be" strengthens the phrase rather 
    that weakening it. That is, He was indeed made sin.

   Understandably, many christians recoil from this concept.

   "He was made sin" simply means that he was made mortal human flesh 
    with the sentence of Adam's death in His members (the *result of 
    Adam's sin*).

   There are other views, I prefer this one.

    Hank    

(2 Cor 5:21) "He made him to be sin": obviously St. Paul does not mean
that Christ was guilty of sin; he does not say "to be a sinner" but "to
be sin".

According to the rite of atoning sacrifices (cf. Lev 4:24; 5:9; Num 19:9;
Mic 6:7; Ps 40:7) the word "sin", corresponding to the Hebrew "asam",
refers to the actual act of sacrifice or to the victim being offerred.
Therefore, this phrase means "he made him a victim for sin" or "a
sacrifice for sin".  It should be remembered that in the Old Testament
nothing unclean or blemished could be offered to God; the offering of
an unblemished animal obtained God's pardon for the transgression which
one wanted to expiate.  Since Jesus was the most perfect of victims
offered for us, he made full atonement for all sins.  In the Letter to
the Hebrews, when comparing Christ's sacrifice with that of the priests
of the Old Testament, it is expressly stated that "every priest stands
daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can
never take away sins.  But when Christ had offered for all time a single
sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait
until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.  For by a single
offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb
10:11-14).

						--Navarre Bible Commentary

      re: .137
    
      ***warning: temporary topic tangent***
    
      Right on, Hank!  But, then again, you knew those would be
      my thoughts, didn't you?
    
      To quickly describe how bad our flesh is.  Light makes manifest
      and if anyone who has fallen, sinful flesh beholds enough light,
      what that light manifests via sinful flesh is the revelation to
      the mind of the bearer of that flesh the full knowledge of how
      bad sin is and the conviction that he is that sinner.  What results
      from this is all the spiritual alienation that is possible.
    
      This is what it means to be made sin and to be the sin bearer.
    
      ***back to the topic at hand!***
    
                                                  Tony

  Re .139  Tony

  And how much more intense must have it been for Jesus to bear this burden!

  Hank

      re: .144
    
      Probably that one!
    
      Interesting, if they'd have seen the chariots.  I don't know.
      Also, if not seeing the chariots, might they still have seen
      Elijah going up?
    
                                                 Tony

    John, thanks for entering that commentary.

Re .141 Greg,

I agree with you completely.  Where's the problem?

I, too, have received personal revelation.  In one instance it was a prophetic
type word to another person.  This couple had been trying, unsuccessfully, for
many years to have children.  One evening the Lord reminded me of the verse
(sorry, can't remember exactly where it is, but I believe God was speaking to
Abram or Sarai at the time): "about this time next year, you will have a son"
(although I'm no longer sure whether it was "son" or "child").  So, feeling
it was from the Lord, but still being cautious, I shared it with this brother.

Well, sure enough a couple of months later his wife got pregnant.  Unfortu-
nately, she miscarried.  But, she got pregnant again almost immediately and
bore their first child, a boy, about 13-14 months after I'd shared this with
him.

Was I being prophetic?  Sure, in one sense I was.  Would I have said: thus
sayeth the Lord?  No, never.  It was something the Lord revealed to me as a
comforting word to this brother.  All I basically said was, "the Lord put
this verse on my heart, and I believe it's for you and your wife..."

So, I've had those types of experiences too.  I just don't make a big deal out
of them.  I've seen too many similar "words" be way off base; like: "God told
me that I'm going to marry so-and-so".  But, like I said about this instance,
I *felt* it was from the Lord.  Theoretically, it could have just been my
good wishes for this couple.  Sure it's a nice feeling, there is that certain
"swelling of the breast" and you stand a little bit taller, when you think:
"I prophesied to such-and-such, and it came to pass".  But, that's only be-
cause we're "spiritual" and would never say: "phew!...lucked out on that
one..."

So, call it what you want, but be cautious with the words: Thus sayeth the
Lord...

Rob

re.92 Greg

>	Ultimately however, I do believe that we, as 
>	Christians, should be striving for a FLOW of knowledge, information,
>	power, activity, control which flows in a downward direction from
>	God's Spirit -> the spirit of the man -> soul of man -> body of
>	man.  Also, we should not neglect the rights and responsibilities
>	of social interaction.

	The direction is perhaps the most relevant point. For instance, praying
for someone's healing. Our prayers and petitions should always be directed
toward God. God then sends healing. Our prayer is vertically upward, God's
answer is vertically downward. Unfortunately, many christians direct their
prayers horinzontally toward the object they are praying for. They use "godly
language" but their power is from themselves. This is no different from healing
in various religions only in the christian community, it is merely the same
thing with christian subtitles. We should flee this.

	BTW, your assumptions about Brother Nee are wrong, uninformed, and
without understanding. But he was one never to argue about his person, so I
shall not defend his person either. 

Ace

    I always understood tongues to be praise/worship to God.  Whenever I
    hear an interpretation that speaks of something other than praise to
    God, I believe it's an overzealous prophet (i.e., gift of prophecy in
    action).  I wish I had a dollar for each uninterpreted tongue I've
    heard ;-)
    
    Mike

    The Holy Spirit intercedes for us in groanings...  I still maintain
    that the Bible teaches that tongues are praises to God.
    
>    	zeppelin to ride around in.  Then, I'd ride over your 
>    	house and throw Ken Hagin books in your yard.
    
    And I'd launch my fleet of watermelon carvers your way to see how many
    times you'd bounce when you fell.

    Why do that?  I have the Bible to tell me everything I need to know.

>    		good.  I know that God has appointed a 5-fold ministry,
>    		but if you want to settle for a 2-fold ministry, why
>    		should I try to convince you?  I have read somewhere
>    		however, that a wise man is open to new ideas.    
    
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  What is this 2-fold
    ministry you *think* I've settled for?  What is the 5-fold ministry?
    
    Mike 

 Just what "new ideas" should a wise man be open to?





Jim

 Please post it..





Jim

>    	"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets, and some,
>    	evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the per-
>    	fecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for
>    	the edifying of the body of Christ", ( Eph. 4:11-13 ).
    
    I'm pretty familiar with this, but wasn't sure how you meant it.  
    You're still being vague on me "...settling for a 2-fold ministry." 
    When I said "all you need was the Bible" I didn't mean it in the sense
    that you took it.  I believe in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit
    and the ministries above, but only within the Biblical context.  You
    seem to be forgetting that I have a Pentecostal background.
    
    >    		Its a matter of teachability.
    
    yeah, that's one of the reasons why Jesus told Peter to "Feed my
    sheep" 3 times.
    
    Mike

 Will do, Greg...thanks..





Jim

    What is "LB" Proverbs?

From 286.70

Proverbs 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge
and understanding.

Proverbs 3:19  The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding
hath he established the heavens.

Proverbs 4:6  Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and
she shall keep thee.

Proverbs 4:8  Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to
honour, when thou dost embrace her.
  9  She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory
shall she deliver to thee.

Proverbs 9:12  If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou
scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.

Proverbs 28:26  He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh
wisely, he shall be delivered.

Proverbs 3:16  Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand
riches and honour.
 17  Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
---------------------------------------
From 286.19

Proverbs 1:7  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools
despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 12:15  The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 14:8  The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the
folly of fools is deceit.

Proverbs 14:16  A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool
rageth, and is confident.

Proverbs 18:6  A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for
strokes.
  7  A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his
soul.

Proverbs 29:9  If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage
or laugh, there is no rest.

Proverbs 10:14  Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is
near destruction.

Proverbs 12:23  A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools
proclaimeth foolishness.

Proverbs 12:16  A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth
shame.

Proverbs 14:33  Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding:
but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.

Proverbs 12:11  He that tilleth his land shall be satisfied with bread: but he
that followeth vain persons is void of understanding.

Proverbs 3:35  The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion
of fools.

    Proverbs 18:6  A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth
    calleth for strokes.
      7  A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of
    his soul.
    
    Proverbs 29:9  If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he 
    rage or laugh, there is no rest.
    
    
    Wow, these were worth repeating... Thanks Mark.. I needed this.

Note 286.* are a collection of proverbs by topic.

Type DIR 286.* to see the list of topics (70 of them).

 So which Proverb says a wise man is open to new ideas, or did I miss it?




Jim

    Jim,
    
    I think the drift here, is gaining new wisdom from the Lord.  At the
    same time the bible says that we shouldn't be tossed to and fro by
    every wind of doctrine.  We need to always be open to new revelation
    from the Lord, but the Lord is not going to contradict the scripture. 
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

 *that* I understand...





 JIm

    so do I.  Now if Greg would just elaborate on this 2-fold ministry
    remark...

>    			 The comment, 'I have my Bible.  What more do I 
>    		need?! '   was kind of facetious.  I know you were kind of
>    		joking, - but you were also quite serious.  
    
    Actually I wasn't that serious at all.  Looking to the trek of the
    Israelites through the wilderness, God sustained them with daily bread
    (meat of the Word) and living water (the Holy Spirit).  It's showing us
    you need proper teaching and the Holy Spirit in your daily life to
    successfully live the Christian life.
    
    I still don't see what you were saying about a "2-fold" ministry.  I
    treasure God's Word and all should be accountable to it, but that
    doesn't mean I ignore everything else.
    
>    		from them.  Ken Hagin is a called, chosen and anointed
>    		teacher of Jesus Christ.
    
    I understand what you're saying and I'm trying not to be unkind.  The
    best way I can say this is that I don't share in this opinion.  
    
    Mike