Conference yukon::christian_v7

	Greg, I'll say one thing, amazing.


Glen

    
    Yes Greg, amazing. You should stop reading so many books and write one
    of your own.

    Wow Greg!  You have powers just like Jesus!

I don't think anything is gained by poking fun at Greg.  I'll go on record right
up front as believing that what Greg described is perfectly possible for the
believer in Christ.  Since I believe it is possible, and since I have no reason
to believe that Greg would deliberately make up such a story, I have no reason
not to accept Greg's testimony.

Christ did tell us that we would do greater things than He did.  In Mt 10:8, He
commanded His disciples to go out, and "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse
those who have leprosy, drive out demons."  I have no reason not to take Jesus
at His word that all these things are not just possible, but expected of
believers.  That we not only no longer expect these things, but no longer
believe that they are possible, is a reflection of how far the Western church
has drifted from the faith of the disciples.

I think in the "Defense of the Faith Movement" note, Greg presented a lot of
truth.  Greg's style is quite antagonistic and condescending, so it makes it
extremely difficult to hear any truth through him, and I wouldn't try to say
that what he said was all truth.   It appeared that some of what he was saying
was as formularized and rigid as that which he is speaking against, yet still
truth was there.

Take Greg and his testimony out of the picture for a moment.  What would be your
answer to these questions:

 - Do you believe that demons really exist, and really do harass us?
 - Do you believe that we as believers in Christ have authority over demons?
 - Do you believe that Christ can heal and work through us?
 - Do you believe that it is possible for Christ to use us to raise someone
   from the dead?

Paul

	Greg, are you saying that is you were to die that you would come back
to life as Jesus did?


Glen

    re: .7
    
    a) what does that mean to you?
    
    b) how do you know the L-rd "dropped them in your spirit"?

>        	The two words that the Lord dropped in my spirit was 'false
>    	brethren'.

Let me take a cut at it:  Those who mocked you, perhaps even those who have
challenged what you have had to say, who claim to be children of God, as
you do, are actually not children of God and not your brethren.

Now, if I have interpreted this correctly, where does this place me?

Mark

    re: .9
    
    Greg - I'm asking what the statement (in .7) means to *you*, not Jesus;
    and I'm asking how you know it was the L-rd who dumped those words in
    your spirit.
    
    Not to sort of "lump you in" with Hinkle (re: June 9 'prophecy'), but I
    found what he said to be "of the L-rd" untested.  Now if, for example,
    the Bereans wouldn't even give Paul/Sha'ul "instant credit" but instead
    searched the Scriptures to see if what he was saying was true, then
    certainly, I think the pattern is established for all of us - that
    teaching, revelation, etc., should be tested and not simply accepted on
    the basis of the claim that "G-d said so".  Untested "G-d said so"
    claims lead, in their extreme, to Jonestowns, Koresh compounds, the PTL
    fiasco, etc. etc.
    
    So I'm simply asking you how you determined that it was the L-rd (and
    not the devil, your own flesh, etc.) that gave you the message of .7,
    and also, what does that message mean to you?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

      Hi Greg,
    
        I am sure you read my .29 and .30 in the topic #501.
    
        I am just not going to be that riveted by the physical
        healings.  The thing that is going to grip me is: "To
        what extent do I see in the lives of others the righteouss-
        ness of Christ?"
    
        Ultimately, it is Christ lifted up that draws to Him.  I see
        here a lack of balance.  I don't see the cross.
    
        After I wrote the replies I did, I was looking for _character_
        as THE MAIN barometer of ANY movement.  The tack to discuss
        a healing rather than to discuss righteoussness just didn't
        do a whole lot for me.
    
        I have read accounts of Satan providing a sickness and then
        removing it in order to deceive.  I have also read that there
        will be cases of miraculous healings and they will be more and
        more frequent as the time nears the end, but they will be for the
        purpose of deception.  In fact, the same writer (it was Ellen
        White) stated that it be very important for most healings to take
        place in inconspicuous environments such as hospitals for this
        very reason - and that miracles of healing would surely occur.
    
        I also know of healings, but that is not what I look to...I am
        looking for character.  I am looking to see the righteoussness of
        Christ.
    
        That is what I have yet to see.  And it is what I insist on seeing.
    
                                                    Tony
                    

    I'd like to remind everyone that while we all may doubt the salvation
    of many who claim to be Christ's, that any such personal remarks should
    be made in mail to the person to whom you are questioning, if you are
    so lead.  This conference and it's participants are hereby requested to
    refrain from such dialogue.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    Greg,
    
    Allow me to add some questions to the outstanding 2 I've asked.
    
    How, "by His Spirit", did He allow you to hear what some folks were
    saying?  Did He say to you, "so-and-so in Anytown, USA said
    'thus-and-such' about this note"?  And again, how did you know it was
    He who spoke and not someone/something else?
    
    Steve

    I wonder why the Spirit didn't tell you what He told me...

    re: .17
    
    And how do you know....etc....(or is that your point?)?
    
    Doesn't anybody see the problem here?
    
    Person A:  G-d told me this.
    
    Person B:  G-d told me that.
    
    Person A:   Well, G-d told me you're a twit and I shouldn't listen to
    		you.
    
    Person B:   Yeah?  Well, G-d thinks you're stupid.
    
    Please - I would seriously like to know how people become convinced
    that G-d says "thus and such" when a large majority of things I've
    personally seen attributed to G-d were not of Him.
    
    It is a very serious thing to claim to speak on His behalf, or claim
    revelation from Him.  He is not to be mocked; nor is His Name to be
    used as a method of intimidating others or for building up one's own 
    "office" or supposed position in the body.
    
    Will someone please answer the questions?  I'm seriously asking.  
    Frankly, this careless use of G-d's Name immediately diminishes
    credibility among many believers - just imagine its impact on
    non-believers!
    
    Please answer the questions.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Steve
    

>	words into my spirit: 'false brethren'.  Then  He gave me
>	an opportunity to hear what some folks were saying about
>	this note by His Spirit.  For instance, one person said:
>	'ok, you win'.  Another person said: 'get a life'.  Still,
>	another person said, 'burnt'.  A woman said something that
>	was quite funny about heroes which I won't repeat.

Anyone care to verify this?  E-Mail would be fine.  And separately 
verify these Greg by telling me who sends me mail.  I imagine that 
people who would say such things would not be close associates of 
yours so I don't have fear of a "fix."  I will keep the names 
confidential, but testify in here as to the veracity of your claim.
How about it?

> Proverbs tells us that the words of an adulteress are smooth as oil, 
>    	and sweet as honey.

Proverbs tells us many things, Greg.  See note 286.*.  I could pick out
a few select ones, but will withhold comment for verification.

Mark

    It's also in the Bible that Peter asked G-d to forbid the death of
    Yeshua; and the L-rd addressed the source of that exlamation
    immediately.
    
    You attributed the words "false brethren" to the L-rd, saying that He
    dumped those words in your spirit.
    
    *HOW* do you know it was *HE* and not someone/thing else that dumped
    those words, and *WHAT* do those words mean to you?
    
    Steve

>    And how do you know....etc....(or is that your point?)?
    
    yes it was my point.
    
>    Doesn't anybody see the problem here?
    
    Definitely, and I agree with you.  I John 4 always comes to mind.  Not
    only that, God will never contradict His Word.
    
    Mike

    Re: this old illustration applies to the "still small voice" too
    
    There were 3 men dying.  Satan appeared to the first man and said, "You
    belong to me."  The man answered and said, "Oh no, I don't.  I have had 
    many wonderful spiritual experiences and a burning in my bosom that I have 
    been following the right path." Satan answers, "I counterfeited all of 
    those experiences and feelings."
    
    Could you prove that it was not Satan who counterfeited the experiences
    and feelings?
    
    Satan appears to the second dying man and says, "You belong to me." 
    The man says, "Oh no, I don't.  An angel of light appeared to me and told me
    that I was saved."  Satan responds and says, "I appeared as the angel of 
    light."
    
    Could you prove that it was not Satan?
    
    Finally, Satan approaches the third man and says, "You belong to me." 
    The man responds and says, "It is written 'For God so loved the world, 
    that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should 
    not perish, but have everlasting life.'  I am a whosoever."
    
    Which man would you vote for as having assurance of eternal life?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

Greg,
  Steve has asked you simple questions; biblical questions that are
  scripturally sound to test the "still small voices" we hear.  You 
  have avoided answering directly and within the bounds of scripture.
  Further, if it is because you will not subject your revelations to
  scrutiny by the unwashed, find someone who is known to be someone
  who can independently verify your statements.  If you cannot, or
  will not, then you are wasting words and not producing a good witness,
  in my considered opinion.
Mark

    Greg,
    
    There are many voices competing for man's attention.
    
    I'm not going to ask you the question again; you seem set against
    answering it.
    
    Mike, I get it.   Thanks.
    
    I'd like to say that if the L-rd indeed did bring a man back to life
    after he died, then the L-rd should receive tremendous glory while the
    vessels He may have chosen to use to accomplish His purpose should say,
    as did John the baptizer, that "He must increase and I must decrease". 
    Moreover, there are *many* voices seeking man's attention and
    submission.  Knowing how to discern which one belongs to G-d is vital.
    
    For my part - enough said here.
    
    Steve 

    There is no greater Lie than the one that walks closest to the truth!
    
    Greg, which is more easily identified as counterfeit, a monoply dollar
    or a masterful copy only dicerned by chemical analysis. Where you would
    certainly not use one, you may be temtped to use the other, believing
    full well of its value.
    
    Think about what has been asked you. No one has accused you of false
    withness, but your actions (and lack of acknowledgement), have spoken
    in your stead. Do not decieve yourself, (as one who has only been
    observing the play, I would say, "the climax is at hand.")
    
    PDM
    

>    	Mike,
>    			What do you mean 'counterfeit'?  Morris Cerullo
>    	frequently says, "its like warm liquid fire, beloved".  Are you
>    	saying that is a counterfeit from the devil?
    
    	Greg, I prefer to let God's Word answer:

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately 
               wicked: who can know it?
    
Proverbs 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end 
               thereof are the ways of death.
    
Isaiah 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God 
             shall stand for ever.

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they 
            received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the 
            scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

      Hi,
    
        I'll answer the test of a counterfeit.
    
        "Ye shall know them by their fruit."
    
        When the people spoke of all the miracles they did and they
        cried "Lord, Lord", what did the Lord say?  He basically asked
        them what their fruit were.
                                                       
        The thing that SCARES me here is the propensity to validate
        purely on the basis of how supernatural it is COUPLED with the
        complete absence of a propensity to validate on the basis of
        CHARACTER.
    
        The mode of validation basically invalidates it all for me!!
    
                                                   Tony

Hi,

this may not really fit in here, but since it seems that this discussion has
deteriorated into "God said this/that" and "how do you *know* He said this/that"
discussion; I thought that I would go ahead and share my thoughts on the matter.

I've been "abused" (for lack of a better word) by abuses of "God told me, and
only me, that..."  It makes it really hard to work with someone.  So, my advice
would be, if you believe that God has spoken something to you, for whatever
reason you believe it, be humble with that word.  God doesn't have to convince
you that those who reject "the word" are "false brethren", and if that kind of
thing happens, you should begin to question the original word, and not those
who scrutinize it.

It's difficult, if not impossible, to quantify "God told me..."  As far as I'm
concerned it's always a matter of faith.  Certainly, you can submit the revela-
tion to the Word of God (the Bible) to see if it doesn't line up.  But, what if
it happens to cover something that "ain't in the Bible"?  I've heard God's
"small voice" (or at least believed that I had) on many occasions.  Sometimes
I was wrong, and made a fool of myself.  Other times God confirmed the word and
I was able to see His faithfulness.  And there are still other times where all
I can say is: He hasn't fulfilled that one, yet.  All that I've learned from 
it is: hearing God's voice can't be reduced to a science, ie there is no "five 
steps to hearing the voice of the Spirit", no "foolproof" method to knowing 
God's voice.  It's a life-long challenge, and we ALL are seeing through a 
"glass, dimly".  That isn't going to change until we're all perfected, and 
that is something God is doing in His time.

The moral of the story is: it's sometimes pointless to ask someone to prove
that God spoke to them.  Sometimes you just have to take it at face value
(ie you said He did, so I believe that *you* certainly believe He did), but with
a grain of salt.  The reason being that some abuse "revelations from God" in
order to gain power, or influence, over others (again, I've seen/experienced
this type of abuse of God's name).  They use their revelations as a protective
wall that grants them superiority.

The other moral to the story is: when I believe that God has spoken to me, then
I need to be extremely humble, realize that no revelation today is perfect, 
and be prepared to step out in faith based on that revelation.  Which is the
hard part :-)  There are many reasons why "acted upon" revelations go awry,
even when they really were from God (just look at Peter walking on the water).

One clear word of caution, when I speak of revelation, I am talking about those
things that God reveals to me *for* me.  Never, never, never...abuse God's name
to gain control.  God does not grant anyone "superior" revelation, and He does
not rule via revelation to particular people.  Words that we might receive that
would influence others are to be submitted, not commanded.

Rob

Just a quick reply to .15, Greg.

I'm not sure that I would agree with your interpretation of the 10 virgins.  
The way I see it, the lamp is the Word of God, and the oil is the Spirit.  I
would understand that to mean: those who entered into the marriage were those
who, through the "unction" of the Holy Spirit are applying the written Word of
God to their lives.  Those who missed the marriage supper were those who relied
on their own reasoning (too little oil/Holy Spirit).  It certainly speaks of
being prepared, but it also clearly shows the "balance" between being Spirit
led and building on the firm foundation of the written Word.

Rob

Sorry, for the confusion, I deleted and then reentered .32 because it looked 
odd after I entered it.  In the mean time other notes came in.  I hope that I
didn't confuse you all too much :-)

Rob

    
    
    Greg,
    
      My Concern for you is that it seems that your faith in your own faith
    is greater than your faith in God.
    
     Dan

re:.32

Amen, Rob.  The people I have seen with the greatest gift of discerning God's
movements tend to also be the most humble about it, the ones constantly seeking
confirmation from other believers about the direction they believe God is
calling.

I've been concerned in this note, because I generally agree with Greg's content,
but not style.  Greg, brother, you are speaking a lot of truth.  And I, with
you, desire that truth to be heard.  But the humility I have seen in those whose
discernment I have come to trust I do not hear in your notes.  Perhaps it is
there in you, I know that much is lost through electronic communication.  But if
it is there it is not coming through.  And because of that lack, I fear that
rather than drawing people closer to the Spirit you may be driving them away.

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the
reason for the hope that you have.  But do this with gentleness and respect."
							1Pet 3:16

Paul

    Like I've said many times before, I've been down that path that Greg's
    on.  It's all emotion without solid grounding in the Word.  The focus
    is on emotion and your will rather than God's will.  I never knew how
    Biblically illiterate I was until I separated myself from that
    movement.  It's not like I know everything either, (I'm open to new
    things) but I know a heck of a lot more than I did then.
    
    Greg's not only driving people away, but he's not making sense and making
    himself look foolish in the process.  I'm trying not to be offensive,
    but I'm not going to compromise the truth of God's Word either (where's
    Paul Lucier when you need him? ;-)).  To cop a phrase, he seems to type 
    quite a bit, but not say much.  Per 1 Peter 3:16, we're still waiting for 
    that "reason."
    
    God speaks to those who are open, and we should maintain an attitude of
    prayer, but God doesn't go around looking for demons in everything and
    neither should we.  That type of vision is not only tunnelistic, but
    dangerous.  Neither do we live our lives based on feelings or emotions
    that we sense.  The Bible is very clear on that.
    
    Mike

 Several notes discussing the Faith Movement have been moved to topic
 157.



 Jim Co Mod

506.19  20-JUN

>>	words into my spirit: 'false brethren'.  Then  He gave me
>>	an opportunity to hear what some folks were saying about
>>	this note by His Spirit.  For instance, one person said:
>>	'ok, you win'.  Another person said: 'get a life'.  Still,
>>	another person said, 'burnt'.  A woman said something that
>>	was quite funny about heroes which I won't repeat.
>
>Anyone care to verify this?  E-Mail would be fine.  And separately 
>verify these Greg by telling me who sends me mail.  I imagine that 
>people who would say such things would not be close associates of 
>yours so I don't have fear of a "fix."  I will keep the names 
>confidential, but testify in here as to the veracity of your claim.
>How about it?

Only one person contacted me in these almost three weeks and guess what,
that person told me that they didn't say it.  No one else verified or
denied these allegations.

Using the argument from silence, one might conclude that Greg was hearing
things.  But since there is silence, and it remains unverifiable, Greg
can still believe what he has heard, because no one admits to having
said these things.  Certainly Greg has not told me who said these things.
Perhaps he only heard them but did not know who said them.

In fact, these claims are actually foolproof because if anyone
admits saying these things, then he's right, and if no one admits it,
he cannot be proven wrong.  I therefore submit that these sorts of
declarations serve no useful purpose, do not contribute to the faith
of believers, and in no way encourage the body.

Mark

	Dear Siblings,

	Our God (who has become our Father through Our Lord Jesus Christ),
has given us *many* good gifts, among which are *each other*.  We can
*share* in His own Life!  As He leads, by His Holy Spirit, in accord with
His holy Scriptures, we can, *together in unity*, live in the same manner as
Jesus Himself did as a man.  This is *not* in order to make us puffed up with
pride, *nor* to estrange us from one another!  This is in order to *build up
one another*, and ultimately to bring all glory to Him, who alone is worthy
to receive it.  Let's all try to remember these things!

						With Love,
						Anudder Brudder, Bob

Greg, 

Does it have to be a human who threatened you?  To me, this sounds more
likely to be the enemy trying to introduce a spirit of fear into your
heart.  And possibly it was still looking for a human vehicle to carry out
the threat.  I have experienced something very similar, in a case where I
could identify the voice, but discounted the individual in whose voice it
was said.  Anyway, the individual identity seems irrelevant, in view of 
passages like Jeremiah 1:17 :
  "Get yourself ready!  Stand up and say to them whatever I command you.  
   Do not be terrified by them or I will terrify you before them."
- We stand in His strength.  Any consideration of the threats of the enemy 
turns our eyes from the LORD. When we give place to considering their 
threats, we are using space that should be given to His promises.

  and 1 John 4:4 & 18, of course....
  "..the One Who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world...."
  "...perfect love casts out fear..."

Remember the witnesses of Revelation 11.  Complete the work He has given 
you; it's all we need to do to get into His presence ;-)

						God bless
							Andrew

.46 Greg
>        Perhaps, the person who
>    	said this would be able to identify himself to Mark.

I'm still waiting for *one* person to identify themself (wrt .43).
I'll also receive this response, if anyone will, to verify Greg's claim.

(Perhaps Andrew has a point about "it" not being human, Greg.)

MM

    Greg,
    
    It is amazing to me that these voices you hear give you such clear
    distinction, but then you waffle over such things as tithing?
    
    The Bible says a man's heart is where his treasure is.
    
    I, for one, don't believe you are a liar.  I think perhaps I believe
    you to be misguided, but then you've blatantly reported that about
    me... so we agree on something differently. :-)
    
    God Bless,
    Nancy

    /greg,
    
    Excuse me... shall I pull out your notes accusing me of being a tool of
    satan???????
    
    How soon we forget.
    
    Let me be very cautious and firm in stating that this conference is not
    your psychic playground.  
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

	Now now.... let's keep it civil in here. Go play nice.


Glen

	Aren't most topics Greg? :-)


Glen

	Frozen or freshly made?

	I'm fully grown, thank you. :-)  

	Greg, the maple syrup, it's fresh from the tree, right? 



Glen

| <<< Note 506.64 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>



| The game has been called for interference.  A bystander just wandered onto 
| the playing field.


	They're gonna throw this person in jail.... :-)  



Glen

                      Couldn't tell ya Greg! Never been.