Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Re: Note 382.0 by LEDDEV::CAMUSO
    
>   (Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset)
    
    Is it?  Jewish or Gregorian calendars?
    
    James

RE:    <<< Note 382.1 by AUSSIE::CAMERON "and God sent him FORTH (Gen 3:23)" >>>

>>    Is it?  Jewish or Gregorian calendars?
    
	Dunno.  I would suppose Jewish calendar, as the Decalog was given
	into the care of the Jews.

        What say ye?  How do we intelligently answer questions concerning
        the Sabbath? I don't believe that I have heard what I consider a
        convincing apologetic one way or another on this.  I will be
        consulting Scripture, the Holy Spirit, my pastor, and brothers and
        sisters in our church concerning this, but I'd like to poll my
        spiritual siblings here in this conference, as well.

	Regards,
	Tony
	

The sabbath (=="day of rest") of the Ten Commandments is from sundown Friday
to sundown Saturday in the Jewish, Julian, and Gregorian calendars.

The Christian tradition of celebrating the Holy Eucharist on the first day
of the week is documented in Acts 20:7.  Early Jewish Christians worshipped
in the synagogue on the Sabbath and celebrated the Resurrection every week
on the first day of the week.

Paul speaks against the importance of the observation of Jewish days, months,
seasons and years in Galatians 4:10 -- days like the sabbath and Yom Kippur,
months like the "new moon", seasons like Passover and Pentecost, and years
like the sabbatical years (Lev 25:5).  Such observances would be the "weak
and beggarly elements" Paul speaks of in Gal 4:9; he can see no reason for
a Gentile Christian to observe these.

/john

Jesus said:

Matthew 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days
the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
   7  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do
well on the sabbath days.

And also from Chapter 12:

20  A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench,
till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21  And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark 2:23  And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the
sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
 24  And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day
that which is not lawful?
 25  And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had
need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
 26  How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high
priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the
priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
 27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the
sabbath:
 28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scripture upon Scripture.  What John Covert says is right.  I also
want to point out that this does not nullify the fourth commandment.

How so?  Remember to put the horse before the cart, folks.  The code
in the Ten Commandments is AN EXPRESSION of the spirit of the law, or 
the law of love.  Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill
it.  Remember this verse?

It means that the codification of the law does not address everything in
the spirit of the law.  Jesus illustrated this by picking heads of wheat
on the Sabbath, healing on the Sabbath, and saying that is is right and
proper to do well on the sabbath.

Further, he points to David who "broke the [codified] law" but was blameless, 
and also told the priests that they "broke the [codified] law" because the
sabbath was their big work day; it was their job; and they were held
blameless.  What Jesus was saying is that the codified law did not 
express all there is to the spirit of the law, and Jesus seemed to
go out of his way to show the spirit of the law - fulfilling it, 
even if it appeared to the code-huggers to be breaking it (which it wasn't).

Mark

   re: 382.3 <COVERT::COVERT>

       To add to John's reply:

       - Jesus defended the disciples breaking of the Sabbath (Matt 12)
       - Jesus himself broke the Sabbath (Lk 13, Jn 9)
       - Jesus commanded the healed cripple to break the Sabbath; carry his
         mat on the Sabbath (Jn 5)

       - See Hebrews 4 for the explanation of the spiritual fulfillment of the
         Sabbath under the New Covenant.

   Hope this helps,
   Tony

The Jews took the principle of the Sabbath - a day of rest, both for us to
rest from our labor and for a day to be sanctified to the Lord - and codified
it and legalized it.  What Jesus broke was that legalism, and only that
legalism.  In every other way He upheld the sanctity of the Sabbath, and
indeed prolaimed Himself as Lord of the Sabbath.

We have - thankfully - disposed of the legalism that attended the Sabbath. 
But I do wonder sometimes if we have disposed of too much.  We've gotten rid 
of the legalism, but for many (most?) of us, Sunday has lost at least some of
the sanctification it once had, and I think it should have.  Speaking for my
own family, we generally make Sunday a family day, but that's not a rule with
us.  There are Sundays where we spend the better part of the afternoon on
some form of work project.  I'm not completely comfortable that we should do
that.  Should we go shopping on Sundays, which isn't really work for us but
requires that someone else work that day?  I really don't know.

And BTW, I don't think the actual day makes any difference.  The Lord
originally said "Work six days, and then take a day of rest" (From memory).
He didn't say "Work Sunday-Friday, and take Saturday as a day of rest."  To
insist that Saturday is the only valid Sabbath is to move back into the
legalism that Christ specifically broke.

Paul

    This question bothered me when I was a child, so I did as most children 
    would and ask my mother why we didn't keep the sabbath. My mother replied
    that as Christian we weren't bound to the law as the Jews were but instead
    went to church on Sunday the day Christ rose to celebrate his
    resurrection.
    
    Being raised in the bible belt (middle Georgia), we as well as most folks,
    rested on the Lord's day. No stores were opened and if you needed anything
    that you didn't have at home, you waited until Monday to get it. My dad,
    a lay Southern Baptist Minister, quoted the following if he need to do
    some work on Sunday "when you ox is in the ditch". In other words if 
    something absolutely had to be done on Sunday, God would understand. 
    
    Yours in Christ
    
    Mike

RE: <<< Note 382.6 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for His security-GAIN both" >>>

	Thank you, Paul.  Your reply most closely reflects some of the
	concerns that have been nudging me.

        Convocational worship, family altar, personal worship, prayer,
        study of God's Word, witness, Christian fellowship.  Does any
	unnecessary activity outside of these profane the Sabbath?

	How do you, reader, believe the Sabbath should be observed?
	Do you believe that the Sabbath is fixed (Saturday) or floating
	(work and play any 6 days, rest the 7th)?  How would you coordinate
	floating Sabbaths in a family whose members have different work and
	play schedules?
	
	Support your posits with Scripture references, please.  

	Prayerfully,
		Tony
		

I have a different perspective on this.  

God Himself created and established the sabbath.  In Genesis 2:3 we read, 
"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it He rested 
from all the work of creating that He had done".  In Exodus 20 we find it 
in the center of the 10 commandments: "Remember the sabbath day by keeping 
it holy.  Six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the seventh day 
is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.  On it, you shall not do any work, neither 
you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your 
animals, nor the alien within your gates.  For in six days the Lord made the 
heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the 
seventh day.  Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
And in Deuteronomy 5 we see it again as part of the ten commandments, with a
slightly different twist: "And you shall remember that you were a servant in 
the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a 
mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded
you to keep the sabbath holy.

The Bible tells us Moses brought down from the mountain top two tablets with 
the commandments.  I've seen paintings where 1-5 are depicted on one tablet, 
and 6-10 are on the other, but most likely all 10 were on each stone tablet.  
In ancient times, two copies of a treaty would be made, one would be kept in 
the king's records, and the other with the nation with whom he established 
the treaty.  In this case, both copies were kept in the Ark of the Covenant 
because that was the center of the nation, but God promised His presence there
also.  The ten commandments were a part of the treaty covenant that God 
established between Himself and Israel.  In ancient times covenant documents 
would have the mark, symbol, or picture of the king in the center of the 
document to make it official.  Often there would be a symbol of a pagan
god the king associated himself with.  But this is the one, true, Living God,
whose document the 10 commandments were.  Since no image could be made of Him,
he set a unique cycle of life as His seal and symbol by setting the sabbath at
the center of the commandments.  

The rest that the sabbath celebrates is not the kind of rest we often think of -
you know, lying down, putting our feet up and doing nothing.  Its an active 
rest - a remembering and renewing.  It is a celebration of God's creative work
in forming and shaping the world and bringing us into it.  It's a celebration 
of the rest or release that God brought for Israel when He brought them out of
Egyptian bondage, its remembering the release from sin that Yeshua (Jesus) 
bought for us by the giving of His life, and its looking forward to the rest
and release from death and corruption that will be our permanent delight when 
we are resurrected to new life, and the new heaven and earth that God has 
promised.  It is a breaking in of the eternal we will experience in full when
Yeshua returns to the temporal experience we currently have.  The Sabbath 
reinforces our relationship to God, looking to Him for our being and our 
continuation.

The prophet Isaiah tells of a coming day when all the peoples will come to
celebrate the Sabbath by worshiping God.  (Isaiah 66:23)

When Paul and Jesus spoke about the Law and the Sabbath they weren't villifying
them and saying that these were no value - weak and miserable principles.
They were not negating the teachings of Torah and the Prophets and the Writings
of the Tanahk.  Here is what they were speaking against:

During the intervening years between the last writings of the Tanakh and the
New Testament writings, Rabbinic Judaism had been developing.  Rabbinic
Judaism attempted to replace the revelation of Scripture with the reasoning of
men.  They added to the Laws God had established, codifying them into minute
details of how to observe this or that.  They made the Sabbath a burden to the
people instead of the delight it was supposed to be.  They began to rely on
the keeping of their rules as a form of righteousness, becoming prideful and
arrogant because they followed all these rules.  This is what Paul and Jesus
spoke against.  Man was not made to be a slave to the Sabbath, the Sabbath
was made to be a delight to man, to bring the eternal to our temporal 
experience, *** to remind us of God's grace and love. ***  It was the man-made
yoke of burdensome observances and prideful arrogance in self-righteously 
keeping these man-made laws that were the weak miserable principles against 
which Paul so rightly argued.  Also, non Jews did not have the same obligation
to Jewish laws that the Jews did.  It wasn't wrong for a gentile believer to 
choose to follow the Law established by God for Israel, but the Jewish 
believers were not to require it of them.

Leslie

        Incidentally, Scripture is clear that "by the works of the Law is
        no flesh justified."  However, I believe that obedience to God's
        law provides a closer walk with the Lord.  The more we obey and are
        willing to obey, the closer we are drawn to Him.  Prayer, witness,
        devotions, study, good works, tithes, Sabbath-keeping, are all acts
        of obedience. Unfortunately, I gladly obey some things, grudgingly
        obey some others, and neglect or minimize obedience to still
        others.

        God's commandments are there to fulfill and protect our lives. My
        tendency is to take the aforementioned cafeteria approach to
        obedience.  My 4-year-old daughter would love to have ice cream for
        supper every night.  After all, it's got calories, vitamins,
        nutrition.  But she needs a balanced diet, that is, an adequate
        provision from each of the 4 food groups, for healthy development. 
        My prayer is to do all that God commands and do it gladly.  
	
	Tanti saluti,
		Tony
		

                               SABBATH DAY OBSERVANCE

          ...tape begins (I think after some paragraphs have been spoken).

          Personally, I'm thankful for the kind of Sabbath I was taught to
          observe because it seems to me that God gave me a special day.
          And it still means a great deal to me (although its my hardest
          day). Let's look then, basically, at these passages from the
          Scripture.

          First of all, we see that Jesus said that he did not come to
          destroy the law but he came to fulfill it. As we read Matthew
          5, 6, and 7, again and again these words ring out: "But I say
          unto you... Ye have heard that it was said of old time, But I
          say unto you..."

          And I believe that he was referring there, of course, to the
          heart of the Law which is the Ten Commandments. If you want to
          turn back in your song book to number 514, (as long as you've
          got them open, there), just for comfort, you'll notice the Ten
          Commandments in their entirety from the twentieth chapter of
          Exodus are here.

          "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make
          unto thee any graven image. Thou shalt not take the name of the
          Lord thy God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
          Honor thy father and thy mother. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt
          not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear
          false witness against thy neighbor. Thou shalt not covet."

          All ten of these commandments, clearly stated, We don't have
          any trouble with nine of them. In fact, we understand that
          what Jesus was doing when he said that he related killing,
          for example, with anger; he related illicit or wrongful sex
          with lust; he equated having to have our statements oath-bound
          with just plain honesty as a way of life. We see that in every
          case, Christ's application of the nine commandments, at least,
          made them not something to be taken more lightly, but a deeper
          application.

          Jesus would have the Law written within us and internalize it.
          And yet, the Sermon on the Mount is strangely silent regarding
          the Sabbath. It doesn't say there, "Ye have heard how it was
          said of old, 'Thou shalt keep the Lord's day', but I say unto
          you, 'You shall really keep the Lord's day'."

          As a matter of fact, Jesus seemed to, by his practice and by
          his permitting his disciples, he seemed to want to break some
          molds when it came to keeping the Sabbath. Jesus did permit his
          disciples to break men's rules about keeping the Sabbath.

          You'll notice, one day, on a Sunday, - no, on a Saturday; on
          a Sabbath - he and his disciples were walking through a grain
          field. I have it pictured as a field of wheat because I've done
          the same thing myself. When wheat is really ripe, pick a few
          heads if your hungry and rub them out, blow away the chaff, and
          it gives you a nice something to chew, and its nourishing (I
          suppose). (I wouldn't want to make a diet of it.) But in rubbing
          out that grain, the disciples were harvesting, in the eyes of
          the people that would look on. Blowing the chaff away, they were
          threshing. And so they were breaking the literal law; they were
          doing what was wrong.

          And yet, when Jesus was rebuked for it by those who said,
          "You're not keeping the Sabbath the way that you should,"
          his reply was, "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for
          the Sabbath. And don't you know how David, our father, did..."
          thus and thus and so? (Remember how David, when he was running
          away from Saul, broke into a holy place and - well, he didn't
          break in; he burst in - and got the priest to give him the show
          bread from off the altar which was sanctified and separate; not
          supposed to be eaten by a lay person.)

          And Jesus, it seemed to me, almost made a point of healing on
          the Sabbath day. He commanded men to pick up their beds and
          walk. Of course, this was breaking the code; certainly doing the
          wrong thing as far as man was concerned.

          And so, while the Sermon on the Mount and pronouncements were
          pretty silent concerning the way the Sabbath should be observed,
          we've set up our own codes. We've set up our own ways of keeping
          the Sabbath. But Jesus did make some pronouncements about the
          Sabbath, and we've already read them.

          I like for us to lift up these pronouncements and look at them
          briefly, this morning. First of all, "The Sabbath was made for
          man and not man for the Sabbath." What can we get out of that
          pronouncement of Jesus?

          I infer from this that I need a day of rest and that this need
          is built in. it was found during World War II, when production
          was tremendously necessary, (we had to catch up), that a man who
          worked seven days a week, would produce less, in the long run,
          than a person who worked six days a week and rested one day.

          And, - I think I read just about every verse of Scripture about
          Sabbath observance and Sabbath from the Old and New Testaments
          in preparing this message - in one Old Testament passage it
          says, "keep the Sabbath so that your ox and your ass, and your
          manservant and your maidservant can have a day off, too." Even
          beasts appreciate rest. I don't know about machinery. But it
          seems to me that when Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man,
          there is a sense there in which we need - our bodies, our minds,
          our souls - need a day that's set aside; that's separate. And in
          a sense this is God's gift to us.

          We don't have to work six days a week. And that reminds me too,
          by the way, if you read that fourth commandment just right,
          it blesses work too. See that second verse there on page 524?
          "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou
          labor." So it doesn't say that we need two Sabbaths. I remember
          Prof. Naylor making a chapel speech, well over 25 years ago,
          and emphasizing the fourth commandment, part of it was "six
          days shalt thou labor. And if we really work six days, and give
          six honest days work, we'll need the seventh day." And I think
          that's a valid comment.

          But the Sabbath, in one sense then, is God's gift to man. And so
          we need to observe the Sabbath in the sense of need; from what
          we need.

          Then the second pronouncement: Matthew 12:12: "It is lawful to
          do well on the Sabbath day." Jesus healed. Jesus seemed like
          he made a point to be controversial on the Sabbath by doing
          that which wasn't generally done. "Don't you have six days to
          do those Miracles?" "Yes." But he made a point to say that it's
          good, it's well on the Lord's day, on the Sabbath day to do that
          which is good.

          I have a personal reference here. I think about how when I was
          first saved - well, after I came back to the Lord as a teenager
          - and had all that energy to burn on Sabbath days. I couldn't
          feature why it was the old people (meaning anybody over 25
          or 30), why they always seemed to get horizontal on Sunday
          afternoon and either listen to music or do something until they
          all went to sleep. I just didn't - I thought that was terrible!

          I remember in our youth group there at Akron First Church, and
          we had a live group, - I guess six or eight ministers came out
          of that group - but on Sunday afternoon, we used to get together
          and go to old folks homes and nursing homes - Joe Duncan can
          testify to that because he used to cart us before we all had
          driver's licenses. And we used to go around as much because we
          had so much energy we didn't know what to do with as that we
          wanted to do good but nobody ever criticized us. We lived in
          a Bible belt, in a legalistic place, in a sense. But you know,
          they never said that what we were doing was wrong. And we were
          burning up a lot of energy.

          I believe Sunday is a good time to think about and to do minis-
          tering to others on the Lord's day. It's a good time to think
          about others and to write a letter, perhaps; a letter that
          should have been written maybe a long time ago. Or make a phone
          call. Or go visit somebody that really would be lifted by your
          visit.

          Then the third thing Jesus says here: "The Son of Man is Lord
          also of the Sabbath." And in his own way, Jesus was saying,
          "this is where it all stops. You're criticizing me by the way
          I keep the Sabbath? I'm the Lord of all truth. All truth stops
          with me. And I'm the reason for the Ten Commandments and I'm
          the reason for the fourth commandment, too. I'm Lord also of the
          Sabbath."

          And I would just ask the question, "Is Jesus really the Lord of
          your Sabbath? Is your Sabbath open for inspection to the Lord of
          the Sabbath?"

          I know it's Old Testament but Isaiah 58:13 indicts the people
          for doing "thy pleasure on my holy day." And making the Sabbath
          merely a holiday. And if Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then
          at least as Christians we ought to open our Sabbath to him and
          say, "Now, what would you have me to do? How would you have me
          observe the Lord's day?"

          And so my conclusion, this morning - it may be a lengthy con-
          clusion - but the last third of my message is "What shall our
          response be to the fourth commandment?"

          When we begin to make a response to this fourth commandment, we
          immediately say, "Now what did the early church do? What are our
          precedence? What does the New Testament say about how to keep a
          Christian Sabbath?" And you know there's not a whole lot, when
          you come right down to it.

          Most of our Sabbath laws, (if we can call them that), or a great
          many of them, come right out of own tradition; especially right
          here, in Boston. And some of you historians know a lot more
          about that than I do, but people could really be punished for
          doing things on Sunday.

          But I submit that the early church may have worshiped on the
          first day of the week as much because it was the end of the
          Jewish Sabbath as because Jesus rose on the first day.

          (... Tape flip ...)

          ...end of the seventh day. Now, you don't have to take that as
          gospel but the way I read the acts in the New Testament, the
          Christians largely kept both days. Most of them were Jews any-
          way. And it was the modus operandi of Saint Paul, for example,
          always to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, not necessar-
          ily because he felt bound to keep a Sabbath, but because that's
          when his congregation was there. And he was a learned Jew. And
          so he would go on the Sabbath day and they would say, "Here is
          a student of Gamaliel, a former member of the Sanhedren. We'll
          have him speak." And so he would reason with them and pretty
          soon he kind of had an M.O. like John Wesley. He would speak for
          a little while and then they would say, "Please don't ever come
          back here again. We don't want you anymore," because he would
          speak about Jesus being the Savior and the Lord.

          But, still they would keep the Sabbath day, in the sense that
          they would attend the Jewish worship on Saturday, and then the
          Christians would get together at the end of the Sabbath day.
          And, I don't know how it came about, but after a while they
          would keep the next day too. I'm certain that in the pagan
          world in which they lived neither Saturday nor Sunday were
          particularly sacred to the Romans or the other pagans. You can
          speak to that better than I can.

          When it comes to precedent, what the early church did is kind of
          hard for us to get our Blue Laws out of the New Testament. But
          what should the church in 1978 do? That's why I asked you at the
          beginning of the message, this morning, "Are you willing to be
          lead by the Spirit?" even though it cuts across convenience in
          your life; or it cuts across tradition; cuts across the way that
          you're doing now? Are you willing to do what the Holy Spirit
          would have you to do?

          If I had my way, I'd go back to a more legalistic Sabbath. I
          think it gives us, after we get used to it, it gives us more
          freedom; gives us a sense of rest. I have a member of my home
          that graduated valedictorian from this Eastern Nazarene College
          and never studied once on Sunday. I guess that's unheard of
          anymore, that you don't study on Sunday, but she figured that
          was her work and "six day shalt thou labor." She was super-
          organized.

          (H.B. London just crept into my speaking this morning. I said
          "super." I was going to try not to say "super" or "crumby." He
          said one of my words crept into his vocabulary, too. That was
          "understatement." I don't believe it.)

          I say she was super-organized in that she never studied after 11
          o'clock at night, as far as I know, either. She was just able to
          do that. And I'm not here to castigate anybody that studies on
          the Lord's day. I just said this is what I would like to see but
          what I would like to see isn't really important. What does the
          Holy Spirit want in my life, and in your life?

          I believe we do need to recognize our need for a Sabbath. And
          since God made the Sabbath for me, I will endeavor to keep one
          day special to Him. Will you go that far with me? Since God made
          a Sabbath built right into my system, built it into me, I will
          endeavor to make him Lord of my Sabbath. Will you do that?

          And then I would suggest that there are at least four things
          I can do on my Sabbath day or as I prepare for my Sabbath day.
          I will prepare my heart for worship. On my Lord's day, I will
          look forward to meeting God in a special way. And I believe we
          ought to pray every day, seven days a week; just like I believe
          we ought to eat every day. You know, you just can't go six days
          and then eat a great big meal and expect to go all week. But the
          Lord's day is something special. And I will seek to prepare my
          heart to meet Him.

          I believe many Christians can break the Sabbath or desecrate the
          Sabbath or break the fourth commandment on Saturday night, if
          they're not careful. For, I think, the Lord's day, we need to
          give our best to it. So I will prepare my heart for worship.

          And then on the Sabbath day, in a special way, I will seek to
          enter into God's word. What better day is there for in depth
          giving myself to the word of God? And I'm not just doing this
          selfishly but I want to give Sunday School a good plug right
          here.

          It seems to me that the church has got an hour set aside just
          for going into God's word. And if you find a class where there
          not digging into God's word, change classes. But Sunday is a day
          when I can enter into God's word in a special way.

          Now, once again, you ought to read God's word every day. But
          here's one day that's set aside. And as I say, "Sunday School is
          a natural, here." That's a good reason for Sunday School, too;
          not just to get a number up on the board, but to get God's word
          into my heart in a special way.

          Then on Sunday I will attend God's house and be a part of God's
          family. I will celebrate the church. I don't need to tell you
          that, here this morning. You're here. But that's one purpose,
          I believe, that God has given us a Lord's day so that we can
          get together and be part of the family and love each other, and
          celebrate worship.

          And then, lastly, the Lord's day is a time when I can assess
          my assignment to people. "It's lawful to do good on the Sab-
          bath day." And every one of us has to seek to be a minister in
          some way to other people. And the Lord's day, after we go home
          from being together, and worshiping and praying together, and
          listening to God's word together, it's a good time (instead of
          just settling back or roasting the preacher or doing something
          else) to say, "Lord, now, How'd I do this last week in serving
          You? How did I do this last week in being a blessing to other
          people? And is there anybody that you can think of to lay upon
          my heart today for this coming week - or today, even?" I believe
          the Lord's day is a good day to assess my assignment to people.

          I haven't totally succeeded, but I, at great cost to myself,
          have refrained from giving my personal convictions this morning.
          But I invite you to seek the Sabbath rest that God has for you.

          This closing hymn, (one of my favorites), number 283, I think
          applies in a very precious way to the Lord's day. And John
          Greenleaf Whittier said it so well. And as we think about the
          fourth commandment, and sing these four stanzas, let's ask
          the Lord to give us a new appreciation, raise our level of
          consciousness about all ten commandments, but especially this
          morning, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

          Closing hymn: Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

          Dear Lord and Father of mankind, forgive our foolish ways!
          Reclothe us in our rightful mind; in purer lives Thy service
             find; in deeper reveernce praise.

          Drop thy stilldews of quietness Till all our strivings cease.
          Take from our souls the strain and stress, And let our ordered
             lives confess the beauty of Thy peace.

          Breathe through the heats of our desire Thy coolness and Thy balm.
          Let sense be dumb, let flesh retire; Speak through the earthquake,
             wind, and fire, O still small voice of calm!
          --------------------------------
          Rev. Russell F. Metcalfe
          Wollaston Church of the Nazarene
          1978

From:	TOKNOW::METCALFE "Adults are the biggest children.  25-Jan-1994 1923" 25-JAN-1994 19:47:35.62
To:	WRKSYS::CAMUSO
CC:	METCALFE
Subj:	RE: Wow!

Russell Metcalfe is my Dad.  I showed him my transcription of his sermon
and he commented that he would have punctuated it differently.  ;-)
The spoken Word is not always transcribed well to the written Word,
but still the sermon had impact on me to take the time to enter it
in word for word.

I see many people seeking deeper expression of devotion to God in many
areas.  One of these areas is in adopting some of the customs of the
Israelites, both OT and NT.  Because the Israelites are the chosen people,
we mistakenly think we might get closer to God through adopting and
performing some of these customs.  I know a heretofore member of the 
conference who adopted the G_d convention.  Wasn't it Timothy who 
was circumcised by Paul?  And yet Paul vigorously defended the 
Gentiles; that they should NOT be required to follow Jewish law.

Deeper devotion is something we SHOULD seek (diligently, according to 
Hebrews 11:6).  Seeing the Ten Commandments, we have no trouble understanding
9 of them because they transcend Jewishness.  Not stealing isn't
connected with the nation of Israel, is it?  So why is number 4
supposedly the only Jewish law, containing the Sabbath?

You know I am going to say that it is not.  The Ten Commandments apply 
to everyone at all time.  And when we understand what Jesus means when
he says he fulfills the law, we understand that the fourth commandment 
was not restricted to the Jews only (as circumcision was, by contrast).
What many Christians err in thinking is that Jesus broke the law.
And when we read the technicalities of the Jewish law, we think "well,
yes, he broke the Jewish law; but he is God and can make and break
laws."  This is not God's character, is it?  God is not suspect here,
which leaves only one other culprit: the Jews took the fourth commandment
and codified things that cannot encompass the spirit of the law.  But
Jesus COULD and DID encompass the spirit of the Law (and remember that 
God is Spirit).  

Now, we must be careful what we do with out "freedom from the law."
That freedom enables you or anyone else to adopt a Jewish custom.  In fact,
doing so may even actually draw you closer to God because of the attitude
and not by any adherence to a formula.

The Ten Commandments are so basic, aren't they, but you would be surprised
how many Christians could not list them, and how far fewer meditate on 
them to understand the spirit in which they are given; indeed the Spirit
by Whom they are given.  Jesus illustrated this by equating hatred with 
murder, and lust with adultery; not just the acts but the attitudes.

So the Sabbath day observance is a principle to live by, and this
includes Jews, Gentiles, and all humanity.  For some, it means sundown
on Friday to sundown Saturday; taking notice of the newspaper sunrise
and sunset schedules.  (See my point?)   For others, it means keeping
Sunday special.  Let the law of love, the spirit of the law, rule.

Mark

 When Jesus Christ fulfilled the shadow types of the Earthly temple it
 ceased to exist being replaced by the Heavenly Sanctuary.

 "We have a High Priest...A minister of the Sanctuary and of the True
 Tabernacle..."

 "For the law having a shadow of the good things to come and not the very
  image of the things... "
 
 "He is also a mediator of a better Covenant, which was established on better
  promises, for if the first covenant had been flawless then no place would 
  have  been sought for a second.. He TAKES AWAY  the first  that He may 
  establish the second"   Hebrews 8:1-7; 10:1-9 (Please read the context)

  Likewise He took away/replaced the Earthly Sabbath :

  Hebrews 4: 9,11.

  ara    apoleipetai    sabbatismos  to       lao    tou      theou
  there  remains    (a) sabbatatism  for the  people of (the) God

   Let us be diligent to enter that rest (people of God Sabbath).
  
  "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and Truth came through
  Jesus Christ" John 1:17.

  Jesus Christ is THE SABBATH OF GOD of the New Covenant.

  "Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy ladened and I will
  give you REST for your souls..."
 
  Why would you want to keep the earthly sabbath if you have entered into
  the Heavenly Sabbath?
 
  Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy (separate)...

  Those who keep the Heavenly Sabbath Rest (New Covenant Sabbath) separate
  it from the Earthly Sabbath rest (Old Covenant Sabbath).
  
   "Let us be diligent to enter that rest lest anyone fall according to the 
   same example of disobedience'
  

      Hi,
    
        I am a Sabbathkeeper and I would like to add my 2 cents.
        I read as far as 0.5 which says that Jesus _broke_ the
        Sabbath.
    
        I believe Jesus broke the Sabbath as the Pharisees understood
        it to be kept.  I believe He _kept_ the Sabbath as He had
        always understood it to be kept.  I do not believe Jesus was
        a lawbreaker.  In fact, He even obeyed the ceremonial laws as
        God meant them to be obeyed.  On what basis would He break the
        4th commandment as God intended (and intends) it to be obeyed???
    
        The truth of the Sabbath will reveal more and more about the
        gospel as the second coming gets nearer and nearer and a 
        people begin to understand the gospel more deeply.
    
        Hebrews speaks of a covenant that has yet to find complete
        fulfillment.  This is the writing of God's law in the hearts of
        God's followers.  The book speaks of looking forward to a people
        who enter into that rest, of looking forward to a people who
        are able to withstand inhabiting Mount Zion (where everything
        that can be shaken will be shaken), and of a people who are
        able to reach behind the veil (see God without a Mediator).
        It speaks of the High Priestly work of completely (perfectly)
        purging the conscience.
    
        The following are examples of how the Sabbath commandment sheds
        light on justification by faith...
    
        The Sabbath points to who performs the work - it is God who 
        justifies.
    
        The Sabbath points to how this work is performed - it is accomplished
        by the word of God.  The power is in the Word just as in creation.
    
        The Sabbath points to when it is accomplished - I believe God 
        created in 6 days followed by a seventh day Sabbath because He
        knew BY FOREKNOWLEDGE that He would not have a group ready to go
        all the way with Him until 6 thousand years.  God patterned the
        7 day week as a symbol of 6 thousand years of the sin problem
        which ends in a symbolic Preparation Day during which God's people
        come to the fulness of the truth and allow God's word to perfectly
        cleanse their hearts, usher in the closing scenes and thus usher
        in the seventh millenium of rest.
    
        The Sabbath points to the work being "very good."  That is...before
        Christ comes, His work of cleansing His followers will be complete -
        perfect.  There won't be anything to add to it.
    
        The seventh day Sabbath, a day sanctified and made holy by God
        before sin even entered this planet, a day given as a sign of 
        creation as well as redemption (see Deut. 5), a day given as a 
        sign of sanctification, and a day nestled within what is considered
        by most of Christianity to be perpetual moral law - the ten
        commandments will finds its perpetuity to be more and more apparent
        as the truth of justification by faith is understood more and more
        deeply.
                                                                          
                                                    God Bless,
    
                                                    Tony
    

      Hi Tony,
    
        I happen to believe that God calls us to rest from sundown 
        Friday to sundown Saturday - that this is the time sanctified
        and made holy by God.
    
        During the miracle of the manna for example, it was not possible
        for anyone to 'decide' which day to rest; the double supply
        always came on the sixth day and there was no manna on the
        seventh.  Nobody could choose to rest say on the 5th day and 
        thus gather a double supply on the fourth.  Scripture says that
        any manna saved would go bad save for that manna saved for the
        seventh day.
    
        In addition, if one supposed that the seventh day Sabbath was not
        kept by the early Christians, history doesn't support this AND
        scripture doesn't either.  Most scholars feel that the greatest
        indication that the early Christians were Sabbath keepers was the
        complete silence by the false Judaizing element of the churches.
        In other words...those same people that complained loudly about
        people not getting circumcised would have complained just as loudly
        were Christians not keeping the seventh day Sabbath.  But, while
        scripture speaks of complaints about people not getting circumcized,
        there are no complaints about anyone not resting on the Sabbath.
    
        There can be only one reason - they were resting on the Sabbath.
        Even Mary would not break the Sabbath commandment to annoint the
        Lord's body - this after the cross.
    
        When one studies history and finds things like early Christians 
        keeping the Sabbath and if one peels away the chords of tradition,
        the perpetuity of the ten commandment law of God appears more 
        evident.
    
        Finally...God's law is His righteoussness (Isaiah 51:4-7/esp. verse
        7).  God has not done away with His righteoussness.
    
        Give psalm 119 a good read some time.  God's law is "holy, just, 
        and good!"  (Rom 7:12).
    
                                                       Tony

In Genesis 1, we're told God created the heavens and the earth.  In each
creation day you not only see a record of how the world came to be, but also the
re-creation of the believer's life as God brings someone to Christ.  When God
brings someone to Christ, first of all, he says, "let there be light."  Then
the next day the Lord separates the waters and you distinguish between what
God wants and doesn't want.  The next phase (Genesis 1:11), the fruit begins
to appear.  The fourth day, God gives light to guide you found in his precious
Holy Spirit.  On the fifth day, he blesses the life and tells it to be fruitful
and multiply.  Finally, his crowning act is a man made in the image of God,
that you may reflect the Father.  Not in terms of perfection, but in terms of
our desires and our character because our salvation doesn't hinge on being good.

In Genesis 1:31, God saw all that he had made and saw that it was good and
rested on the 7th day.  He blessed that day, sanctified it and set it apart.
Looking back, the other 6 days each say there was evening and morning for each
one.  Evening and morning is conspicuously absent from the 7th day because God
had blessed it.  Here God is allowing Adam to enter His rest.  When Adam woke
up, Adam saw everything was finished and perfect and he didn't have to do a
thing.  There was no post-creation cleanup.  He woke up into perfect creation
and God said all he had to do was live in it.  

Adam was still lonely though and wondered why God created a female for each
animal and not for him.  We all know the story here, God put Adam in a deep
sleep, and created a beautiful companion for Adam out of his side.  It made
Adam's life complete.

There was someone lurking in the shadows that did not want you to have this
rest.  He disguised himself as a serpent and deceived Adam and Eve.  He took
away their rest, and no longer was there no evening and morning.  When giving
the curse, God said he would send a Savior because the rest was lost.  God
cannot live with us outside of His rest.  He provided a covenant with man
through the sacrifice of a Lamb to cover the sin and establish rest.  You are
never good enough or high enough to obtain God's perfection.  He had to provide
the way to obtain rest.

Genesis 2:1 is the first time we're introduced to the Sabbath.  You don't hear
more about it until you get to Exodus when the 10 Commandments are given.
There you get the first giving of the law.  To keep us from forgetting about
the rest to come, God gave us a signpost to point to the rest.  In Exodus 20
on Mt. Sinai, God gave us an expression of His will.  In verse 8, He tells us
to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.  It was the hope to hold on to
knowing that rest will someday come again.  You couldn't work, buy, or sell on
this day, because you couldn't work for, buy, or sell to gain this rest.

In Deuteronomy 5, God re-states the Law 40 years later.  Starting with verse 12,
the Sabbath is once again addressed.  In verse 15 God reminds them that He
brought them out of Egypt and commands them to observe the Sabbath.  This is a
little different from the first giving of the Law in Exodus 20.  Instead of
having a taste of what Adam and Eve had once a week per the first giving of the
Law, God says to observe the Sabbath to reflect on Him saving the Israelites out
of Egypt.  God is saying here to the careful observer that the Sabbath is a
weekly memorial day.  It was to reflect on the finished work of creation,
looking forward to the finished work of redemption, and to also remember the
exodus out of Egypt.

By the time Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabbath, the whole meaning
behind the day had been lost.  In Mark 2, Jesus states something very critical:
He is Lord of the Sabbath day and that the day was made for man.  The Sabbath
was made for us from the beginning.  As for Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath,
read Colossians 2:16-17 and you'll see that Paul confirms that Jesus Christ is
the Lord of the Sabbath.  When you see the shadow of something, you know the
real thing is near.  If the shadow is from a loved one, you don't long to
fellowship with the shadow, but with the loved one.  The Word of God tells us
here that the Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus Christ.  All the Jewish holy days
(Yom Kippur, Passover, Monthly New Moon) and festivals were shadows and
pictures pointing to Jesus Christ.  All Jesus Christ knows is that He wants
you to realize that He's the rest you've been searching for.  After thousands
of years, the promise of God's rest has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

The last week of Jesus' life here on earth, was the re-creation week.  On the
Friday of that week, the real rest arrived just as it did on the Friday of
Genesis 1.  When Jesus was recreating rest in the spiritual realm, hanging on
the cross, declared "It is Finished!"  He chose that phrase so that we may know
the Sabbath rest had arrived.  Darkness came upon the earth right after that,
just as creation week had evening and morning, and then we entered in the rest
provided by Jesus' atonement.  Man was lost by the taking of the tree in the
garden, and was saved on another tree.  As Adam fell to sleep and his side
opened on creation week so that his life would be made complete, Jesus also
fell into the sleep of death and his side opened so that the church could be
born.  In both situations, God did all the work for us to enter His rest and
capped off both events with the same phrase.  You violate the Sabbath by not
trusting the work of Christ and by offering a different gospel.

The "magnum opus" of the Sabbath in the New Testament is in Hebrews 4, and it
may be of some benefit to start in Hebrews 3.  In this book, God is obviously
talking to the Jewish people.  Starting with Hebrews 4:1, God keeps affixing a
certain day to entering His rest and that day is Today.  We are again told
that we who believe enter into that rest.  The Israelites died in the desert
for not believing and didn't enter the rest of Canaan.  Those same Israelites
were keeping the Sabbath day, yet God told them they would not enter his rest.
God is saying that Sabbath day does not equal His rest!  The spiritual
significance here is that the Israelite generation that couldn't enter his rest
was an unbelieving generation.  God's rest for us is not Sunday or Saturday,
but today!  Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith and not
of works.  When you realize that, you also realize that Jesus Christ is with
you everyday and not just on the day you celebrate the Sabbath.  He floods
your soul everyday!  Sabbath rest points towards salvation and Jesus Christ
took care of it all on the cross.  The atonement is complete and there is
nothing you can do to add to it.  All you have to do is receive Jesus Christ
as your Savior and live in that rest everyday.

In Jeremiah 50 you see that today there is a Satanic plot out to rob you of your
rest.  The problem with the people here is that they don't know the way to go
back home.  In verse 5-6, it says the shepherds have led the sheep astray and
that they have forgotten their resting place.  Beware of false teachers that
will get you involved in a system of works and have your forget your rest.  In
Isaiah 26:12, we are reminded that God has performed all the works necessary for
us to enter His rest.  

Look at Nehemiah 13:15-22 and you'll see what happens when you break the
Sabbath.  The whole destruction and captivity of Jerusalem came about not
because of immorality or idolatry but because the Israelites were breaking the
Sabbath.  God is saying here that whenever you fail to enter His rest, you bring
yourself into captivity.  When you lose your rest in Christ, you become captive
to works, doubt, sin, legalism, insecurity, fear, and false gospels.

In Exodus 16 you'll see that God provided manna for his children while in the
desert.  If they tried to be greedy and grab extra, it would turn wormy.
However, on Fridays God provided a double portion to carry them through the
Sabbath.  There's nothing they had to do on their own.  God also gave us a
double portion when He gave us His son.  Christ did it all and there's nothing
we could do to earn it or to help God out.

So what do we do about a physical say of rest?  Labor camp studies have shown
that the human body best functions on a 7-day cycle with a day of rest.  Arguing
which day is best is irrelevant.  In Romans 14:5-6 we are told that this isn't
critical and we are not to impose our day upon another.  The significance of
Sabbath is spiritual not physical.

God has always been one to use visual aids to teach truth.  Hearing, saying,
seeing, and doing are proven methods on how we learn best.  It is also the best
method to teach children.  God often used it in his parables and teachings
("look at the sparrow", "look at the vine", etc.).  He even had His people act
out truth during the holidays as a learning process.  Passover is a prime
example where the blood was put on the doorposts in the sign of a cross.  The
same applies to Sabbath.  His people were acting out truth on a day of rest to
show them that it wasn't by their work that they can obtain salvation.  They
have been doing it for thousands of years.  At the beginning of Sabbath, the
woman of the house will say a prayer and light 2 Sabbath candles.  The
significance of the woman doing this is that the first candle is the candle of
creation, and the candle of redemption.  The woman was the closest creation to
the first Sabbath, she brought the Messiah into the world that would pay the
price of redemption, and she was the first to bring the news of the
resurrection.  Therefore, the woman of the house is considered to be the Queen
of the Sabbath.  This is important because the Church is the bride of Christ and
is the lady of the Lord's house.  She is responsible for lighting the candle of
the gospel for the Lord to the rest of the world.  The Father of the house
places his hands on the children and blesses each one individually.  Then he'll
bring the children under his prayer shawl (talid?) to represent the covering
under the righteousness of Christ.  Then he gets his wife and pronounces a
blessing upon her under the commendation of Proverbs 31 in front of the
children.  When you are resting under Christ as a family, great blessings are
bestowed upon your family.  The next thing that happens is the handwashing.
The significance of this is that we are not saved by getting our hands dirty
or by our works according to Titus 3:5.  The next thing is the Kadusch(sp?)
where the father recites the prayer of sanctification over the wine: "Blessed
are thou, Lord God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine."
Then the cup is passed around and everyone in the family takes a sip of the
wine.  The next thing is the Hala (sp?) is blessed and covered, representing the
manna that was covered with dew.  It is braided bread, looking much like someone
on a cross with braided arms.  There are always 2 loaves, representing the
double portion of manna and John 6 where Jesus says He is the Bread of Life.
They bless it saying, "Blessed are thou, Lord God, King of the Universe, who
brings forth bread from the earth."  It is passed around and everyone covers
their knife because cutting it would be through works and no human works can be
added to it.  Everyone tears off a piece and holds it, then the rock salt is
passed around, each one taking a piece, and they eat them together.  The salt
represents sweat, which is needed to produce the bread.  The second loaf is then
passed and is eaten without sweat, because our sweat has nothing to do with the
atonement paid by the Bread of Life.  At the close of Sabbath on Saturday
evening, there is a ceremony called Habdalluh(sp?).  Here they take the wine cup
(khadish?) and fill it to overflowing and it speaks of the joy spilling over in
our lives because we are resting in Jesus Christ the Messiah.  Then there are 2
candles braided together, representing creation and redemption, and they are lit
by a blue candle representing the Messiah.  As it burns, they pass around sweet
smelling spices (Myrrh - which was brought to Jesus at his birth) to remind
them of the sweetness of God's rest.  A tear bottle is passed around since the
Sabbath is over and tears were kept, especially by the women.  The way this all
ends is you take the Habdalluh(sp?) candle and extinguish it in the Khadish?
cup.  This symbolizes that the fullness and completion of the Sabbath is in the
blood of Jesus Christ.  The funny thing about all this is the thousands of
Jews doing this under the Messianic picture, not realizing it all points to
Jesus Christ.

Keep resting in Christ as your Sabbath rest.  When someone asks you now, "Do
you keep the Sabbath?", your proper response as a Christian should be, "The
Sabbath keeps me!"  

      Hi Mike,
    
        I thought those were EXCELLENT replies!  I think I agree with
        virtually everything you said with the exception of whether
        or not we are called to rest in a certain way on the seventh 
        day.
    
        Clearly, the seventh-day Sabbath is very much symbolic.  However,
        God does call His followers to perform other things that are
        symbolic in nature such as partaking of communion or baptism.
    
        I agree with every spiritual connection you made between the 
        Sabbath and the rest it points to, I just happen to believe it
        is an enduring thing God calls for just as communion is something
        God calls for even though it is symbol.
    
        We could go back and forth a lot on this, but just a couple
        quickies.  The early Christians were Sabbathkeepers and there is
        no doubt that if not resting on the Sabbath was 'ok', at least
        some Gentile believers would not have rested on the Sabbath and 
        thus the Judaizing element that complained about circumcision (as
        recorded in Acts and Galatians) would most certainly have
        complained about the Sabbath.
    
        There can be only one reason the Judaizers did not complain - the 
        early Christians were keeping the Sabbath.  Evidently, those that
        received the benefits of the Pentecostal outpouring kept the
        Sabbath and I doubt they did so partly on the basis of indiscern-
        ment.
    
        Exegesis includes historical context.  Romans 14 has to be
        considered within the framework of historical context.  That is,
        Paul was addressing some problems - but, one of the problems he
        was not addressing was seventh-day Sabbathbreaking.
    
        If you read about the miracle of the manna (before giving of the
        10 commandments), you'll see that there was Sabbathkeeping and
        the 4th commandment indicates it might have gotten forgotten, i.e.
        "Remember..."
    
        After the cross, the women did not want to annoint Jesus because
        they kept the Sabbath "according to the commandment."  This was
        also written many years after the cross.  So here is someone 
        writing something many years after the cross about an event that
        took place after the cross and the writer (through inspiration)
        says "according to the commandment."
    
        You mentioned resting a day in 7.  On what basis?  By doing so, 
        you confirm that there is _another_ rest.  That we are designed
        for resting one day in seven and that this rest is somewhat
        different than our rest in Christ.
    
        My point is that you've just acknowledged another rest and you
        have also acknowledged the 1 in 7 principle.  I would just suggest
        that the seventh-day Sabbath continues to be a day given by God 
        for the purpose of resting (in that way you refer to) while more
        actively contemplating God's redemption and creation.
    
        Finally, I do not believe the work of redemption has finished.  I
        believe that if all there was was the cross, not a single person
        could be saved.  We still need a High Priest to woo us into 
        receiving the inexpressible gift.  We could not partake of the
        benefits of the cross without the work of our High Priest.  The
        work Christ is doing right now is a work of redemption and it is
        His High Priestly work.
    
        Thanks Mike for your inputs.             
    
                                                    God Bless,
    
                                                    Tony
    
    

      Hi Mike,
    
        I reread the first paragraph of your first reply on the
        Sabbath (.17) and I see something else much differently.
    
        You mention something to the effect "not in terms of perfection
        but in terms of desires and character" and state that it is
        not in terms of perfection because we're not saved by works.
    
        The author of Hebrews links the Sabbath to the continual rest
        in Christ.  It is also linked to the new covenant.  In fact, the
        author speaks of that rest in Christ (a different Greek word)
        and then says, "There remains therefore a rest [sabbatismos - 
        _sabbath rest_] to the people of God" (Heb 4:9).  The author has
        just linked the seventh-day Sabbath ("there REMAINS") rest as
        an enduring symbol (that remains for us) of the rest in Christ.
    
        It would follow that we could probably learn something about the
        covenant yet unfulfilled through the seventh-day Sabbath.  Among
        which is, it is a sign of sanctification, it is accomplished by
        the word of Christ and after six days when God looks at His work
        of sanctifying, He will say "It is VERY good" (perfect).
    
        No, we are not saved by our works, we are saved by Jesus Christ
        who's redemptive work includes saving us from our sins.  But, this
        salvation work produces perfection.
    
        Acts 3:25,26
        Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God
        made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall
        all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
        Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent him to
        bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
    
        Galatians 3:8
        And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen
        through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,
        In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    
        Note well this passage.  God's message to Abraham as quoted in
        Acts 3:25 we find (from Galatians 3:8) to be that message which
        justifies the heathen through faith and is the gospel.  It is the
        BLESSING of the gospel.
    
        Turning back to Acts 3:26, we find just what the blessing of the
        gospel, _just what justification by faith is_:
    
        "in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
    
        When a person first comes to Christ, there is a cleansing...some
        sin has been turned away from, some rebellion has been removed.
        And God honors our first steps.  We are accounted righteouss when
        faith, however imperfect, is there.
    
        We know that Abraham was accounted righteouss when he first had 
        faith and that that faith was very immature (as an example, he went
        in unto Hagar).  Scripture gives PARTIAL BASIS for why Abraham 
        was justified...
    
        Genesis 22:18
        "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed _because
        you have obeyed My voice_."
    
        In other words, part of the basis of the preaching of the gospel
        is what that gospel can produce and that is perfection of character
        and the ability to survive the cross.  (Genesis 22:18 refers to the
        mount Moriah THREE DAY experience.)  The three day experience is
        symbolic of the cross (cross, Jonah in the whale, Esther in the 
        INNER court of the king - all three day experiences) and this is
        what justification by faith enables.
    
        If you look at Hebrews, it can be looking forward to nothing other
        than character perfection.  Look at 10:2 for example.  The cross
        is able to provide _no more conscioussness of sin_.   Its really 
        all over the place.
    
        1 Thess 5:23
        And the very God of peace sanctify you _wholly_.
    
        So we see 2 rests in Hebrews; the continuous rest in Christ and
        the Sabbath rest which is a symbol of that rest and _which
        remains_.  We also see what justification by faith is and that
        the Sabbath is a last day symbol (given by God) of the covenant
        which is the fulfillment of justification by faith, "I will write
        My laws in your heart" (same thing as Acts 3:26: turning us away 
        from our iniquities.)
    
                                                   Tony
     

>        When a person first comes to Christ, there is a cleansing...some
>        sin has been turned away from, some rebellion has been removed.
    
    did Jesus Christ die for all of our sins or just some of them?  As I
    understand SDA doctrine, I'm assuming you'll say "some."  John 3:16-17,
    Isaiah 53:5, I Peter 2:24, Romans 3:24-25, Colossians 1:20, and 
    Romans 5:8 do not speak of any partial propitiation.  Jesus Christ died 
    for *ALL* our sins.  Our assurance is found in I John 5:11-13, 
    II Corinthians 5:17-20, and Psalm 103:12.
    
>        And God honors our first steps.  We are accounted righteouss when
>        faith, however imperfect, is there.
    
    When is faith "there"?
    
    Romans 10:9-10,
    Mike

      Mike,
    
        What do you mean by paid?
    
        Just what are we delivered from Mike?
    
        Do we need to be saved _from our Saviour_?  (After all, Jesus is
        the express image of the Father.)
    
        Yes, I believe Jesus 'paid' for sin, but Christ must be received.
        And that reception drives out the sin.
    
        I don't understand what you mean by "when is faith there"?  When
        one first has faith.
    
        I believe Christ died for all of us, but that doesn't mean all 
        will be saved.  His death (which was for all sin) must be received
        in order to be effective.
    
        I have a feeling you believe we must be delivered from God and not
        from sin.  That is where your theology seems to be leading.
    
        Just give Acts 3:25 an honest look.  
    
        We are delivered from sin.
    
        Sin is the destroyer.
    
                                                        Tony

>        What do you mean by paid?
>        Just what are we delivered from Mike?
    
    Jesus Christ was the propitiation for our sin.  
    
>        Do we need to be saved _from our Saviour_?  (After all, Jesus is
>        the express image of the Father.)
    
    not sure what you mean here.  Maybe you're reading too much into what I
    said.  
    
>        Yes, I believe Jesus 'paid' for sin, but Christ must be received.
>        And that reception drives out the sin.
    
    We agree then.  Your last quote said "some sin."  Jesus paid for *ALL*
    of it, but we still have to accept Him.
    
>        I don't understand what you mean by "when is faith there"?  When
>        one first has faith.
    
    okay, just trying to clarify what you wrote.
    
>        I believe Christ died for all of us, but that doesn't mean all 
>        will be saved.  His death (which was for all sin) must be received
>        in order to be effective.
    
    Correct.
    
>        I have a feeling you believe we must be delivered from God and not
>        from sin.  That is where your theology seems to be leading.
    
    I have no idea what you're talking about here.
    
    Mike

>>        I have a feeling you believe we must be delivered from God and not
>>        from sin.  That is where your theology seems to be leading.
>    
>    I have no idea what you're talking about here.

The wages of sin is death.  Who pays the wages?  Who exercises Judgment in
righteousness?

MM

      Hi Mark and Mike,
    
        This might spin off into the same type of stuff I have talked
        about before.  Maybe we should have a separate topic.
    
        Mark, at least you know what I mean.  
    
        As an example, you brought up, "The wages of sin is death" and
        I believe this speaks of a spiritual reality that God cannot
        circumvent.  I believe it in the way that one might say "the
        wages of a cold virus is congestion."
    
        We went through this before.  In other words, I believe the
        destructive force is inherent to sin and is activated by God's
        love.
    
        If we are not delivered from sin, but rather by a punishment God
        must 'dole out' because of sin...it then follows that the atone-
        ment is satisfying a requirement God has.
    
        Most people say the law demands death and refer to a judicial
        model.  The law is God's law which is His righteoussness.  And
        if one follows it through, God's love then requires death.  It
        requires an infinite sacrifice before the transgressors of that
        law can be 'acquitted' (should they accept the price).
    
        1 Corin 13 says that God's love "seeks not its own."
    
        How is it that the law can require an infinite price and yet
        it does not seek its own?
    
        I find this to not be possible...this is contradictory. Nothing
        can be more contradictory than this.
    
        I have come to believe that sin is death and righteoussness is
        life.  And I have come to believe that Christianity's understanding
        of
    
        what we are delivered from    (sin and not God)
    
        why the cross is necessary    (I believe it is)
    
        what justification is         and
    
        what the atonement is
    
    
        is something radically different than what today's Christianity
        says it is.
    
        But...maybe we should keep this to the Sabbath although the Sabbath
        is related because it is a symbol of the yet unfulfilled covenant
        and the Sabbath shows us much about these themes.
    
        BTW...does anyone here recognize that the covenant is yet unful-
        filled?  Isn't that what the author in Hebrews is waiting for 
        (this several years after the cross)???
    
                                                   God Bless,
    
                                                   Tony
                                               

    I'm sorry if you've discussed this before, I must've performed many of
    my NEXT UNSEEN's then.  
    
    BTW - that's a nice leap of logic you got going there ;-)
    
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        I miss the 'leap' (really!)
    
        I started a new topic on deliverance.  Maybe we could talk about
        what we are delivered from there.
    
                                                       Tony

Yes, we've been through it... more than once and the "leap" hasn't gotten
any shorter... for anyone I know for that matter.

The judicial model is a Biblical one, by the way, in a big way.

We've been through the fact that God's nature will not abide sin in His
presence, and have agreed.  We've agreed that sin is the cause or reason
for separation.  We apparently have not agreed that ultimately it is God
because of our actions of rebellion that executes final judgment.  We 
committed the sin deserving of punishment.  Our actions have consequences
whether immediate or postponed.  The final consequence will be God's judgment
where he declares a person guilty or pardoned, for none are innocent.
Those who are pardoned shall enter his rest.  Those on whom guilt remains
will be exiled from His presence.

Mark

      You know Mark...
    
      there is one other thing I agree with you about.  And that is
      that God will make a consciouss choice.  He will remove the veil
      and in so doing the unsaved will be destroyed.  The destructive
      force of sin will be activated by that removal of the veil.
    
      The following is where we disagree (I think)...
    
      You seem to believe in sin being a DUAL problem.  1) There is 
      destructive force inherent to sin.  2) God has to punish in some
      way that is above and beyond the destructive force inherent to
      sin (which is activated by God's consuming presence.
    
      I believe sin is a SINGLE problem.  We must be delivered from
      sin and that is all.
    
      I think that's the crux of it.
    
      But, if God indeed has to punish, it follows that we must be
      delivered (in part) from God.
    
      In other words, the cross includes a punishment God had to 'dole 
      out'.  God must be appeased to some degree.
    
      Agape which 'seeks not its own' must be appeased to an infinite
      degree (by the sacrifice of Christ).
    
      I cannot reconcile that Mark.  
    
                                                     Tony

>      I cannot reconcile that Mark.  

Yeah, I know.  Neither have you then understood it (at least, as the orthodox
position is stated).

Sin is rebellion against God.  God is just.  The wages of sin (cause and effect)
is death.  The payer of the wages is the Judge/Jury/Executor of Judgment.
It is not vindictive judgment (perhaps as you suppose) but righteous
judgment constrained by justice when mercy has been spurned for the last
time.  Nevertheless, it is judgment to destruction and hell for the unpenitent
and God will say "depart from me... I never knew you" to those who have
refused His mercy and love.  Love is pure an holy and will not tolerate 
the corruption of sin, and when the last rejection of the overtures of love
is given, God will reject the unrepentant sinner.

...whether you can reconcile it or not.

Mark

      Hi Mark,
    
        As you don't want to rehash (and I don't blame you...I don't have
        the energy or the desire for it either!) just a final reply to
        you.
    
        What if there is a spiritual reality that is a result of God's
        character of love and what befalls the unsaved is a direct 
        result of this spiritual reality (which God Himself is bound to -
        i.e. He cannot circumvent it)?
    
        To use temperature as an analogy and to apply the belief based
        on Romans 7 that sinful flesh makes a person feel he is a rascal.
        And that the combination of God's love and sinful flesh brings to
        view a revelation of the sinfulness of sin...
    
        Let's go behind the veil so to speak...
    
        Let's assume cold stands for feeling sinful and heat stands for
        God's love/character perfection.
    
        Let's also suppose the last generation has been made perfect in
        character.
    
        Ok, they see God's love to a certain fulness - the fire of His
        love.  Through sinful flesh, they are awakened to a fulness of a
        revelation of sinfulness and also via sinful flesh, they feel to
        be that sinner (Job 9:20,21).
    
        To cite the analogy, their hands 'feel' ice cold and they are in the
        presence of the fire of God's love.  Let's say they are in a 
        basin of extremely hot water.  This pain they experience is 
        unarbitrary; it is a result of spiritual reality.  They overcome
        this pain by faith as their Forerunner did.  How do they over-
        come?  Their hands are really hot; they just _feel_ cold.  In other
        words, righteoussness is life and even survives the second death.
    
        The unsaved meanwhile suffer the exact same pain (cold hands in hot
        water).  They do not survive the experience.  Why?  BECAUSE THEIR
        HANDS ARE REALLY AS COLD AS THEY FEEL.
    
        They are destroyed by the same fire that the saved survive.
    
        Look at the story of the fiery furnace.  Nebuchednazzer makes the
        fire "seven times hotter."  This symbolizes reaching behind the
        veil.  God's presence is completely unveiled.  The brothers
        survive.  Why?  Because a fiery presence of Christ is in their
        hearts. 
    
        Meanwhile, the babylonian guards are destroyed BY THE SAME FIRE.
        
        And what is that spiritual reality?  That God desired an intelli-
        gent creation  whose service to Him would be voluntary based on
        being drawn by His love.  That is, they can discern good and evil;
        they are sensitive to it.
    
        And because of this...there is pain in beholding the contrast.
        A pain which is unarbitrary being based on a spiritual reality
        borne out of God's character of love and thus a spiritual reality
        He cannot circumvent.
    
        All God does is remove the veil.  Spiritual reality does the rest.
        Sin in the presence of God's love destroys.  The dynamic is not
        one of an external punishment being applied, it is 100% intrinsic
        to spiritual reality.
    
                                                       Tony

Note 382.31 LUDWIG::BARBIERI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        To use temperature as an analogy and to apply the belief based
>        on Romans 7 that sinful flesh makes a person feel he is a rascal.
>        And that the combination of God's love and sinful flesh brings to
>        view a revelation of the sinfulness of sin...

  Feeling has nothing to do with sinfulness.  I can recognize my guilt
  and sinfulness by the simple declaration of God's Word *even before I
  ever see or experience God's love.*  Being condemned is a condition.
  Paul Weiss said recently that a judge can declare you guilty and you
  can then say, "But I don't feel guilty" without changing the fact that
  you *are* guilty.

>        Let's assume cold stands for feeling sinful and heat stands for
>        God's love/character perfection.
> ...
> ...    How do they over-
>        come?  Their hands are really hot; they just _feel_ cold.  In other
>        words, righteoussness is life and even survives the second death.

   Their condition is really sinless, they just _feel_ sinful?
   You make it sound as if the bad part gets melted away while
   whatever is good remains.  If this is what you mean, it's
   way off.  The whole part is condemned or the whole part is
   pardoned.  We will live in corruptible flesh until we are
   remade with the incorruptible.  This changing is incidental to
   our guilt or pardon and the consequences of each.

        The unsaved meanwhile suffer the exact same pain (cold hands in hot
        water).  They do not survive the experience.  Why?  BECAUSE THEIR
        HANDS ARE REALLY AS COLD AS THEY FEEL.

   Their condition is sinful, and they feel sinful - so they melt, or burn
   up because of heat applied.  Again, feeling has nothing to do with it.
   A state of mind (in faith) has nothing to do with it.  Righteousness
   and mercy is IMPARTED by God, pardoning the guilty.  Judgment and
   destruction is also meted out by God, dooming the guilty who have been
   impenintent.

>        They are destroyed by the same fire that the saved survive.

   My Bible says that the pardoned will go into heaven after judgment,
   and that the unrepentant will go into hell after judgment.  The only
   commonality to this is the Judgment.  You may infer from this that
   the Judgment will set fire to all, dooming the sinner and purifying
   the saved, but it is a long leap.  Matthew is pretty clear.

>        Look at the story of the fiery furnace.  Nebuchednazzer makes the
>        fire "seven times hotter."  This symbolizes reaching behind the
>        veil.  God's presence is completely unveiled.  The brothers
>        survive.  Why?  Because a fiery presence of Christ is in their
>        hearts.

    It fits well into your suppositions, Tony, doesn't it?  My Bible
    says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
    kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both
    soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28  The three Hebrews' faith was
    rewarded by God for *God's* glory.  What is significant about their
    tesimony is there declaration in Daniel:

    "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the
    burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O
    king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not
    serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set
    up."  Daniel 3:17-18

    Please note: "BUT IF NOT..."  If God does not deliver us from the
    seven times hot furnace which you see as symbolizing reaching behind
    the veil, we will not reject God.  For the faith of the Hebrew
    children, there are many whose faith rival these and yet perished
    as martyrs for their faith.

>        All God does is remove the veil.  Spiritual reality does the rest.
>        Sin in the presence of God's love destroys.  The dynamic is not
>        one of an external punishment being applied, it is 100% intrinsic
>        to spiritual reality.

    Sin does NOT destroy any more than gasoline consumes. Soak a log
    with gasoline (read the permeation of sin in one's life) and let it
    sit there.  Apply a flame, and you have another story. You might
    say, "Yes, God removes the veil applying the flame to the log and
    the gasoline ignites."  But make no mistake, God applies the flame
    and because gas (sin) is present, the log (person) is burned.
    The flame *IS* externally applied - at Judgment.

    What is not 100% is how you understand or have modified the facts of
    the judgment to fit a model of symbolism you feel has been revealed
    to you.  The Bible is simple: we all have sinned and are guilty,
    whether we feel it or not.  The penitent will be pardoned from their
    just desserts and rightful judgment by God's promise and grace. The
    impenitent will not be pardoned from their just desserts and
    rightful judgment, which is separation from God in Hell.

    Mark

    Re: feelings
    
    Romans 10:1-13 says nothing about feelings.  We don't always feel
    saved, but the Word of God gives us assurance that we are.
    
    Mike

    Re: feelings again
    
    Some more verses...

    We should not trust our changing hearts (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 14:12),
    but base our spiritual decisions on the secure and established Word of
    God (Isaiah 40:8, Acts 17:11).

      Hi Mark and Mike,
    
        I used feelings as an analogy and I agree we are not to trust
        them.  In fact, as I said Mike, the saved withstand this ultimate
        temptation - they do not give in to their feelings.  After reading
        my reply, I am surprised you saw a need to inform me that we must
        not trust our feelings.  My reply rang out loud and clear in
        agreement with you.
    
        I am not trying to say that the Daniel vision as a symbol fits
        perfectly, but what I have written is what I believe.  Romans 7
        attributes _death_ to a combination of the commandment coming
        and this causing sin to _revive_.  It goes on to state the cause
        of this reality to sinful flesh, i.e. "sin which is in my members",
        "the law of sin and death which is in my members."  As for deliver-
        ance...as I believe in the spiritual, deliverance is from sin and
        not from a punishing God, I really don't see disharmony there when
        applying this event of the furnace to the spiritual.  (In other
        words, God's deliverance of Daniel's friends is His delivering them
        from sin.)
    
        Job 9:20,21 does indeed state that even if he was perfect, he
        would not know his soul, he would despise his life.  Isaiah 6
        shows the spiritual dynamics I have shared (from Romans 7) as it
        applies to one of faith.  The death of Judas shows the same dynamic
        as applied to one who lacks faith.  Note that God did not hang
        Judas.  Judas, because of his despair (and I believe because he
        could not believe in God's pardoning love for him even though it
        was there) HANGS HIMSELF.  This is what sin does as indicated by
        the Romans 7 dynamic (when one lacks faith).
    
        I acknowledge that God will make a consciouss choice some day.  He
        will remove the veil.  To anyone who cannot inhabit Mount Zion
        (Heb. 12), God will be a consuming fire (same fire and I believe
        the fire in Matthew is the same fire, i.e. the RIGHTEOUSS shine
        as the sun - they are in the fire), but I do not believe His reason
        for doing so is a need to execute punishment.  I see it as a need
        to educate His unfallen creation as to how awful sin is so that
        they will never choose to touch it - the universe will be eternally
        safe from sin due to the combination of seeing the fruits of 
        righteoussness and the fruits of sin.
    
        To summarize my view, I believe that God is bound to this spiritual
        reality; He cannot circumvent the reality of Romans 7.  That
        reality is that God would only have a creation whose service to
        Him is voluntary and based on being _drawn_ by His love.  This
        implies the ability to discern, to be sensitive to, right and
        wrong.
    
        I just happen to believe that packed in this characteristic of
        being able to discern right from wrong is a reality that if one
        has sin residing in his heart and sees 'goodness' in all its full
        glory (sees behind the veil), such a person will be overwhelmed by
        a sense of his unrighteoussness, will despair and will ultimately
        be consumed.  They will hang themselves.
    
        Sinful flesh complicates things, but suffice to say that the same
        TEMPTATION TO DESPAIR will exist in the minds of God's perfected
        last generation as they see behind the veil because their flesh
        will 'tell them' that they are that wretched sinner it reveals to
        them (Job 9:20,21 again).
    
        Yes, Mark, I understand your position and it cannot stray from a
        judicial format.  God condemns, etc.  My application of guilt is
        not the objective "did I do a naughty and am I guilty before God?",
        (we are all guilty of sin), it is the alienation that occurs in 
        the mind as a result of the spiritual reality clearly explained
        in Romans 7.  If you don't like the word guilt as I applied it,
        fine!  Just use any word you want (parhaps I incorrectly use the
        word guilt).  No sense for a terminology disconnect.  As long as
        the meaning behind the words is understood.
    
        Basically, to use an analogy.  If my daughter did something real
        bad and if when she saw me, she saw tears in my eyes and saw my
        love for her and if I just held her and she was warmed by that 
        love.  If in that experience, she underwent a heart-change...if
        she no longer wanted to do that bad thing anymore, I would not
        'wallop' her because I simply had to.
    
        I believe that Christianity as presently understood describes a
        God whose basis for the cross is a spanking He must give.  And
        my understanding is that it is a hug He must give (not that it
        wasn't an exceedingly painful hug).
    
        When the mark of the beast comes, some will profess Christ, but 
        will not have Him in their hearts. They will rise no higher than their
        conceptions of deity.  They will see God's remnant as worthy of
        death and punish in the name of their God and their understanding
        of Him.  The remnant meanwhile could never do that - because they
        know their God.
    
                                                       Tony
                                                   

>        I believe that Christianity as presently understood describes a
>        God whose basis for the cross is a spanking He must give.  And
>        my understanding is that it is a hug He must give (not that it
>        wasn't an exceedingly painful hug).
    
    In brief, the OT sacrifices foreshadowed the Lamb of God, "slain from the 
    foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8), whose shed blood would be the 
    final sacrifice and cleansing for sin (I John 1:7).  Man, whose sinful 
    rebellion has separated him from God, can now have "peace through the 
    blood of his cross" (Colossians 1:20) and be "reconciled" to God 
    (II Corinthians 5:19) because of his vicarious, substitutionary death.  
    More supportive Scriptures can be found in I Peter 2:24, Romans 5:8, 
    Acts 4:12, Hebrews 9:22, I John 1:9.  The "hug" from God you are
    looking for is in the infamous John 3:16-17.
    
    Mike

How did this note get off track?

      re -1
    
      Good point Mark!!!   ;-)
    
      So Mike,
    
        I believe you based your Sabbath position on the seventh-day
        Sabbath being a symbol of rest in Christ and thus (since its
        only a symbol) its no more.  We now have the rest in Christ.
    
        You also admitted to a rest _distinct_ from the rest in Christ
        and admitted to a 1 in 7 principle of resting.
    
        I replied by stating that your assertion of _symbol_ holds no
        substance for it would imply we are not to obey symbol since
        they point to a reality, BUT scripture clearly still calls us
        to obey some symbols (baptism, foot-washing, communion).
    
        I also showed you that Hebrews differentates the continuous
        rest in Christ and the Sabbath rest (the two Greek words being
        totally diiferent) AND that the author of Hebrews utilizes the
        Sabbath as a symbol of something YET TO COME.  This would be
        the covenant of the law being written in the heart.
    
        The whole language of Hebrews is that the covenant is yet 
        unfulfilled.  The author uses several means to discuss the 
        transition of covenant.  It is one wherein God's church rests
        fully in Christ.  It is one wherein Christ is in the Most Holy
        and not the Holy.  It is one wherein God's people are prepared
        to inhabit Mount Zion.  It is one that requires partaking of
        solid food (which food the hearers were not ready to partake
        of yet).
    
        My point is this.  The Sabbath is used in Hebrews as a symbol
        OF SOMETHING FUTURE.  The author also states, there remains
        therefore a sabbath rest [sabbatismos] to the people of God.
    
        So anyway Mike.  Every point you brought up doesn't really provide
        me with any basis for no longer resting on God's Sabbath day.
              
                                                   Tony

-.1 is not a hot button of mine; glad to have you back on track.

MM  ;-)

      Thanks Mark for getting me back on my feet!
    
      (Is that possible???!)  ;-)
    
                                                Tony

>        I believe you based your Sabbath position on the seventh-day
>        Sabbath being a symbol of rest in Christ and thus (since its
>        only a symbol) its no more.  We now have the rest in Christ.
    
    yes, the Sabbath was always a spiritual symbol/memorial.
    
>        You also admitted to a rest _distinct_ from the rest in Christ
>        and admitted to a 1 in 7 principle of resting.
    
    purely physical.  We're human and need to rest our bodies once in a
    while.  Like I said, enforced labor camps tried to mess with a 7-day
    work week but they discovered our bodies function best on that cycle.
    After working all week, you can rest your body on whatever day you wish, 
    but it doesn't have anything to do with your salvation.  
    
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        I sense a disconnect...
    
        I applied the reasoning that the basis of your posture of there
        no longer being a seventh day Sabbath rest called for by God
        is that the Sabbath is a symbol/memorial.  I then demonstrated
        that this is no support whatsoever for its not being kept (on the
        basis that)
    
          1) We are called to 'obey' things which are symbolic _still_.
             Such as baptism, foot washing, and communion.  In other words
             to apply your logic, it cannot be God's will for us to be
             baptized or to partake of foot washing/communion.  After all,
             these are merely symbols just like the Sabbath is.
    
          2) Just as baptism is, I also showed that what the seventh-day
             Sabbath symbolizes is something yet future and which we do
             do not fully understand.  The Sabbath is the symbol or sign
             of the yet unfulfilled covenant.  And I also showed that the
             Sabbath helps us understand justification by faith.  As 
             examples, it is God's work and not ours.  It is performed by
             His word, and after six days, the work will be finished and
             will be very good [perfect].  (For the last part I would
             include Peter where he speaks eschatologically and states that
             a day is like a thousand years unto the Lord and also include
             the truth that earth has labored in sin for ~6000 years and
             we know that a Sabbath millenium is soon to follow.)  In other
             words, the Sabbath is a present schoolmaster for us, assisting
             us with things not yet understood.  It endures as a symbol.
    
          3) I mentioned that from hebrews it is said that there REMAINS
             a sabbath rest to the people of God.  (And the Greek shows us
             it speaks of a remaining of the Sabbath rest [sabbatismos]
             that is, it is not here talking of the continuous rest in
             Christ which is an altogether different Greek word).
    
          So I include all this and let us not forget that the Sabbath is
          included in the heart of the ten commandments and is the only
          day of the seven sanctified and made holy by God.  (This has
          never been rescinded.)
    
          Finally, as to rest.  I beg to differ with your idea of what
          resting means.  I believe Jesus' busiest day was the Sabbath.
          He seemed to perform most of His healings on the Sabbath.  By
          rest, I mean rest from our secular labors so much as possible 
          so that we can more fully contemplate creation and redemption
          and more actively serve our Master.  
    
          With practical examples, it is difficult to take a couple hour
          drive to say the White Mountains and enjoy God's world more
          fully when we have a full days work to do and likewise it is not
          easy to devote an entire day to say preach the gospel or minister
          to the sick when we have our job to go to.
    
          I'm not really sure why Mike, but from my perspective you have
          essentially sidestepped every single reason I have given in 
          support for Sabbath-keeping most notably the question of symbol.
    
          Your stance implies that it cannot possibly be God's will for
          any of His followers to be baptized or to engage in foot
          washing/communion services.  After all...they are entirely 
          symbolic (unless of course you believe in transubstantiation).
    
                                                   Tony
         

    >        I sense a disconnect...

    not sure what you mean...
    
>          1) We are called to 'obey' things which are symbolic _still_.
>             Such as baptism, foot washing, and communion.  In other words

    These are all new covenant celebrations initiated by Jesus Christ.
    
>          2) Just as baptism is, I also showed that what the seventh-day
>             Sabbath symbolizes is something yet future and which we do
>             do not fully understand.  The Sabbath is the symbol or sign

    I understand it fully and thought I spelled it all out already.  It
    always pointed to the eternal rest provided by Jesus Christ's
    atonement.  *He* was the future the OT Sabbath always pointed to.
    
>          3) I mentioned that from hebrews it is said that there REMAINS
>             a sabbath rest to the people of God.  (And the Greek shows us
>             it speaks of a remaining of the Sabbath rest [sabbatismos]
>             that is, it is not here talking of the continuous rest in
>             Christ which is an altogether different Greek word).

    I don't remember the context;  was this a spiritual or physical rest?
    Paul also wrote in Romans 14 that the physical day of rest is
    irrelevant.

    Mike

Note 382.43   STRATA::BARBIERI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                             -< HUGE Disconnects >-
>          1) We are called to 'obey' things which are symbolic _still_.

   The disconnect I see in this is where you want to interpret things by
   a lot of symbolism, but adhere to a literalist "Sabbath."  To me, this
   is more of a disconnect than the particular tenets themselves (some of
   which I have stronger reaction to than others).

   Mark M.
  

>     1 Corin 8:2
>     If any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet
>     as he ought to know.
>
>     You say you understand it fully.  The word says the more one thinks
>     he knows, the more he really DOES NOT. 

Tony,
  You hit this one a lot, too.  Let us not forget that the Bible tells us
to seek after wisdom and to know more.  This does not mean that a person
doesn't know anything when he knows something.  Rather, it means that as
a person understand more, there is more to understand because we then 
begin to realize the immensity of God.  I have said often that no one can
know all there is to know about God, but everyone can always know more about
God because He is infinite.

>     You have about a thimble's
>     worth understanding of what the Sabbath can tell us about the new
>     covenant.  You know NOTHING as you ought to know it.

By the logic above, because you seem to be more enlightened on the subject of
the sabbath, you therefore know less than the rest of us.  See my point?

Mark

      No Mark, I don't.
    
      I'm not talking about what we know...I'm talking about _attitude_.
      I don't think I know much at all...I'm just a child.
    
      I don't know what you mean by 'a literalist' Sabbath?  Do you
      mean to say that God never sanctified a certain day?  Do you mean
      that when He did so...His intention was that that specific time
      He sanctified was not in any way different than the other six days?
    
      I don't get it.
    
      We get baptized.  We have our communion services.  I suppose one
      can call the physical act of baptism 'literalistic'.  I guess....I
      don't know.
    
      All I know is God sanctified the 7th day.  He placed it in the heart
      of His moral law.  He seemed 'literalistic' when the manna double
      supply was only available on the seventh day.  Jesus rested from His
      work as Lamb by 'keeping' the 7th day holy.  Women would not annoint
      Christ's body because they rested on the Sabbath "according to the
      commandment."  Jesus (looking well beyond His resurrection) said,
      "Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath day."  The author of
      Hebrews states "there remains a sabbath rest to the people of God."
    
      You can call it what you want.  But, I chose to be baptized all the
      while it is only a symbol.  I choose foot washing and communion all
      the while they are symbols.  And I choose the Sabbath rest God
      commanded His people ("the people of God") to follow because (as He
      said in His word) it remains.
    
      I don't understand.  I just always believed in the 10 commandments,
      found out they read a little differently than I understood them to
      read, and decided to obey them _as they read_ - literalistic or
      not.
    
                                                      Tony
                              

Note 382.48     STRATA::BARBIERI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              -< I Don't Get It >-

>      We get baptized.  We have our communion services.  I suppose one
>      can call the physical act of baptism 'literalistic'.  I guess....I
>      don't know.

  Not all are dunked.  Some are sprinkled, some are poured on.  They are
  no less baptized by these symbols.

>      All I know is God sanctified the 7th day.  He placed it in the heart
>      of His moral law.  He seemed 'literalistic' when the manna double
>      supply was only available on the seventh day.  Jesus rested from His
<      work as Lamb by 'keeping' the 7th day holy.  Women would not annoint
>      Christ's body because they rested on the Sabbath "according to the
>      commandment."  Jesus (looking well beyond His resurrection) said,
>      "Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath day."  The author of
>      Hebrews states "there remains a sabbath rest to the people of God."

  Jesus was a Jew.  These examples are given about Jews.  Read Acts
  about what the Jewish Christians had to say about the Gentile Christians.

>      I don't understand.  I just always believed in the 10 commandments,
>      found out they read a little differently than I understood them to
>      read, and decided to obey them _as they read_ - literalistic or
>      not.

  And so have I.  I don't have 9 commandments, as you seem to be implying
  here.  But at least I do understand.

Mark

      Hi Mark,
    
        When you said "these examples are given to Jews", you gave your
        interpretation of the passage.
    
        By "I don't get it" I simply mean to say that I don't agree with 
        your view on this.  That's all.
    
        I think personal conviction is a good thought right about now.
        I did not start this topic, but I think I'd be 'hammering' at 
        this point.
    
        Let me just say that I believe the Sabbath is the sign of a yet
        unfulfilled covenant and that it remains (as hebrews says it does).
        Allowing that "I know nothing as I ought to know", I could write a
        lot about what little I do know of the Sabbath in terms of how it
        illuminates on justification by faith and the covenant yet future.
        Pages and pages!   It has such endtime significance.
    
        I will part by stating that just as I personally (personal conviction
        again) wouldn't feel right about not being baptized according to
        how I understand the word (immersion) even should I believe in what
        it symbolizes and just as I would advise Adam that the tree God
        specified does matter, I will be obedient to the Sabbath symbol as
        His word specifies.
    
        Again, I'd have exactly the same feelings about baptism.
    
        We could go on and on, but I discern that enough has taken place
        and any more is just hammering and is beyond personal conviction.
    
        God bless you all Christian brothers and sisters.  There is so
        much more yet not understood by all of us.  But we are united in
        Christ Jesus and His precious blood shed for us all.
    
                                                      Tony

Cruising some old notes.  Came across this in ,12.  I know how you all
like to skip 339-line notes.


          Then the third thing Jesus says here: "The Son of Man is Lord
          also of the Sabbath." And in his own way, Jesus was saying,
          "this is where it all stops. You're criticizing me by the way
          I keep the Sabbath? I'm the Lord of all truth. All truth stops
          with me. And I'm the reason for the Ten Commandments and I'm
          the reason for the fourth commandment, too. I'm Lord also of the
          Sabbath."

          And I would just ask the question, "Is Jesus really the Lord of
          your Sabbath? Is your Sabbath open for inspection to the Lord of
          the Sabbath?"

    
    
    
    
    
    			YES!!!
    
    			JOYFULLY!!!!
    

   re: 651.0 <POWDML::FLANAGAN>

   >Why do Most Christians worship on Sunday rather than Saturday as demanded
   >in the ten commandments?

       Because the first century church worship on Sunday and not on Saturday
   as the Jewish law demanded.  (SEE Acts 20:7)

   In Christ,
   Tony

The ten commandments were given specifically to Israel.  As the vast
majority of the original Christians were Jews, they would worship in the
temple or tabernacle on the Sabbath.  The next day - resurrection day -
came to be the day on which most would then meet for worship and fellowship
as followers of the LORD Jesus Christ. 

Examples of this are in :

Acts 20:7 :
   "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came
    together to break bread..."

1 Corinthians 16:2 :
   "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by
    him in store, as God hath prospered him...."

Also relevant is the passage in Colossians 2:16..20.  This is in the context 
of Jesus having dealt with all that stands against us, and cancelled the law 
standing against us.  It continues :

   "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with 
    regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.  
    These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however 
    is found in Christ...."
									:16
   ...........
   "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as 
    though you still belonged to it, do you subnmit to its rules "Do not 
    handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are designed to perish with 
    use, because they are based on human commands and teadchings.  Such 
    regulations have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, 
    their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack
    any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
									:20

There are a few laws which apparently did change between the covenants -
specifically the dietary ones (Mark 7:19) and the sabbath.  However the
Colossians passage with others makes it clear that we are not bound, but
should not try to force others into our particular persuasion on such a 
'debatable' matter.  Each should be convinced in his own heart as to the 
way he follows on non-critical issues.

						God bless
								Andrew

The Resurrection of Christ is viewed as an eighth day of creation, on which
God's work of salvation and his victory over death was finally completely
done, and he could truly rest.

Thus Sunday is the new Sabbath, the new Day of Rest.

/john

    -last
    
    Scripture?? Eight day??
    New day of rest??
    
    -.5
    Scripture is what we need to verify truth not feelings. Jesus kept the
    law or obeyed the law to it's fullest. To show us that with a constant
    relationship with the Father we will not commit a sinful act. It does
    not abbolish the law in no way. Roms. 7:7 If we change one law we can
    change anyone of them.
    
    not to argue with anyone but as a Sunday keeper, I looked at all the
    scripture and found no evidence that Jesus changed the Sabbath.
    
    Bruce
     
    
    

    Please continue your discussion here on the Sabbath.  Topic 651 will be
    deleted shortly.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    Co-Mod CHRISTIAN

    
    Sabbath means rest.  As christians Christ is now our rest.  It's
    believed that the early church started keeping the Sabbath on
    Sunday because that's the day Christ reappeared after the 
    resurrection.  At least this is my understanding.
    
    Jill

Been there.  Done that.

Sorry to see the re-re-re-re-re-rehash.

We know for certain that the early Christian Church in the time of the apostles
had already moved the weekly observance from Saturday to Sunday.

From the Universal Catechism: Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath
which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial
observance replaces that of the sabbath.  In Christ's Passover, Sunday
fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's
eternal rest in God.  For worship under the law prepared for the mystery
of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

	Those who lived according to the old order of things have come
	to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day,
	in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.

			-- St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110), see also
			   1st Corinthians 10:11.

    John,
        Not to rehash but show me in scripture where it says Sunday is the
    lord's day and I will keep it as a Sactified day of rest! 
    
    Patricia,
        Jesus should be our example, what He does we should follow. In
    scripture Jesus kept the Sabbath (Saturday) Holy. Please read the
    4th chapter of Hebrews. Please note where it says that Jesus kept the
    Seventh day Sabbath and further on it speaks...(Paraphrased) If Jesus
    was to give us another day he would of told us. But He did not! No where
    in scripture does Jesus even change ONE law. He fullfilled them but 
    that doesn't mean to change. Romans 7:7 say I would not of known sin
    but by the law. 
    
    Please think about it for one minute... If the early church has the
    right to change the law what prevents the Today church from changing
    thou shalt not kill ....Meaning ABORTION???
    Man in no way change God's law. Jesus himself said I come not to change
    but to fullfull!!
    
    Bruce 

>    John,
>        Not to rehash but show me in scripture where it says Sunday is the
>    lord's day and I will keep it as a Sactified day of rest! 

We know that celebrating the Lord's Supper and listening to sermons was
already the common Sunday practice in Paul's time:

Acts 20:7: And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came
together to break bread, Paul preached to them...

We know that the church in Apostolic times had already established this
tradition (we have scriptural and other documentation), and scripture
tells us that it is binding:

2 Thess 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions
which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

/john

382.65> Bruce
>If Jesus was to give us another day he would of told us. But He did not! 

"If man were meant to fly, God would have given us wings."

Ever hear that phrase bandied about?  My grandfather will not fly,
but it is fear rather than a religious prohibition.  Let me offer a 
little food for thought about what Jesus did say about a few things.

(1) Jesus made a point of "supercharging" the law.  For example, he said,
    you've heard that you're not supposed to commit adultery.  I'll say,
    but I'm telling you that if you lust after another person's spouse,
    you've committed adultery in your heart.

    Jesus did this with numerous laws, but no where does Jesus say, you've
    heard that you are to keep the Sabbath.  I'll say, but I'm telling you
    that you should REALLY keep the Sabbath more intently.  Instead, we see
    Jesus going out of his way to do things that *some* people thought were
    not right to do on the sabbath.  Some people thought He profaned the
    Sabbath by healing or picking heads of grain.

    We can clearly see, that while "it was his custom" to be in the 
    synagogues on the Sabbath, he did not operate on the Sabbath in the
    way some people thought it ought to be.

(2) The logic of following Jesus' example is a good one, but you *can* carry 
    to a point of distortion.  In other words, does Jesus ask you to be
    Jewish, as He was?  Have you been called to lay hands on the lame and
    heal them?  Have you been called to preach the gospel as He did?  Later
    in the New Testament, the Bible tells us that some are called for these
    things, but we're part of the body of Christ - different yet cooperative.
    To call out one of Jesus' behavior patterns as an ideal and strip off 
    the rest is incongruous.  To attempt to adhere to them all is impossible.
    That's the point of legalism and freedom from the law.  You have to keep
    them ALL if you keep one (legally).  It DOESN'T mean keeping none of them 
    because you can't keep them all, but what freedom from the law does mean 
    is a focus OFF action and a focus ON attitude.  (See #1).  It is not so 
    much a matter of WHAT you do as it is WHY you do it.  What you do is the 
    legal aspect; why you do it is the spiritual aspect.  Jesus would have our 
    hearts in the right place before we go about putting out actions (in this
    case, Saturday-Sabbath keeping) into practice.

(3) The woman at the well questioned Jesus about proper worship.  Jesus 
    specified no time or form when he identified who the "true worshippers"
    of God were.  "If it was important, He would have told us so," wouldn't
    He?  (Same logic as your statement above, Bruce.)

    What did Jesus say were the marks of true worshippers?

John 4:21-24 

    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye
    shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of
    the Jews.But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall
    worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to
    worship him.  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship 
    him in spirit and
    in truth.

I am glad you find fulfillment in keeping the Sabbath on F-S.

Mark

I thought about ignoring this current discussion on the sabbath, but found
I cannot so I'm reposting my note from the previous discussion in this string
of notes which took place a year ago.

In addition to what I said in the previous posting, I'd like to add a couple 
of comments in response to some of the new notes that have been written.  I'll
include these additional comments at the end.

Leslie

          <<< Note 382.9 by KAHALA::JOHNSON_L "Leslie Ann Johnson" >>>
                     -< A true celebration of the sabbath >-

I have a different perspective on this.  

God Himself created and established the sabbath.  In Genesis 2:3 we read, 
"And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it He rested 
from all the work of creating that He had done".  In Exodus 20 we find it 
in the center of the 10 commandments: "Remember the sabbath day by keeping 
it holy.  Six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the seventh day 
is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.  On it, you shall not do any work, neither 
you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your 
animals, nor the alien within your gates.  For in six days the Lord made the 
heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the 
seventh day.  Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
And in Deuteronomy 5 we see it again as part of the ten commandments, with a
slightly different twist: "And you shall remember that you were a servant in 
the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a 
mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded
you to keep the sabbath holy.

The Bible tells us Moses brought down from the mountain top two tablets with 
the commandments.  I've seen paintings where 1-5 are depicted on one tablet, 
and 6-10 are on the other, but most likely all 10 were on each stone tablet.  
In ancient times, two copies of a treaty would be made, one would be kept in 
the king's records, and the other with the nation with whom he established 
the treaty.  In this case, both copies were kept in the Ark of the Covenant 
because that was the center of the nation, but God promised His presence there
also.  The ten commandments were a part of the treaty covenant that God 
established between Himself and Israel.  In ancient times covenant documents 
would have the mark, symbol, or picture of the king in the center of the 
document to make it official.  Often there would be a symbol of a pagan
god the king associated himself with.  But this is the one, true, Living God,
whose document the 10 commandments were.  Since no image could be made of Him,
he set a unique cycle of life as His seal and symbol by setting the sabbath at
the center of the commandments.  

The rest that the sabbath celebrates is not the kind of rest we often think of -
you know, lying down, putting our feet up and doing nothing.  Its an active 
rest - a remembering and renewing.  It is a celebration of God's creative work
in forming and shaping the world and bringing us into it.  It's a celebration 
of the rest or release that God brought for Israel when He brought them out of
Egyptian bondage, its remembering the release from sin that Yeshua (Jesus) 
bought for us by the giving of His life, and its looking forward to the rest
and release from death and corruption that will be our permanent delight when 
we are resurrected to new life, and the new heaven and earth that God has 
promised.  It is a breaking in of the eternal we will experience in full when
Yeshua returns to the temporal experience we currently have.  The Sabbath 
reinforces our relationship to God, looking to Him for our being and our 
continuation.

The prophet Isaiah tells of a coming day when all the peoples will come to
celebrate the Sabbath by worshiping God.  (Isaiah 66:23)

When Paul and Jesus spoke about the Law and the Sabbath they weren't villifying
them and saying that these were no value - weak and miserable principles.
They were not negating the teachings of Torah and the Prophets and the Writings
of the Tanahk.  Here is what they were speaking against:

During the intervening years between the last writings of the Tanakh and the
New Testament writings, Rabbinic Judaism had been developing.  Rabbinic
Judaism attempted to replace the revelation of Scripture with the reasoning of
men.  They added to the Laws God had established, codifying them into minute
details of how to observe this or that.  They made the Sabbath a burden to the
people instead of the delight it was supposed to be.  They began to rely on
the keeping of their rules as a form of righteousness, becoming prideful and
arrogant because they followed all these rules.  This is what Paul and Jesus
spoke against.  Man was not made to be a slave to the Sabbath, the Sabbath
was made to be a delight to man, to bring the eternal to our temporal 
experience, *** to remind us of God's grace and love. ***  It was the man-made
yoke of burdensome observances and prideful arrogance in self-righteously 
keeping these man-made laws that were the weak miserable principles against 
which Paul so rightly argued.  Also, non Jews did not have the same obligation
to Jewish laws that the Jews did.  It wasn't wrong for a gentile believer to 
choose to follow the Law established by God for Israel, but the Jewish 
believers were not to require it of them.

Leslie

Here are my additional comments:

First, in the Hebrew calendar, a day begins at sunset.  Thus when you see
references to the first day of the week, there is some ambiguity.  It could
be a reference to day time on Sunday, or it could very well be a reference
to what we know as Saturday night.  For example, there is a ceremony known
as havdala which marks the end of Shabbat, the disciples could easily have
met for havdala and followed this with a meal together.  That meal on 
Saturday night would have on the first day of the week.  And in terms
of contributing money or whatever to the community, money was not handled
on Shabbat, so they would have had to have done it on another day of the week,
the first day seems as logical a choice as any.

Secondly, the discussion with regards to new moons and sabbaths could be 
Paul's direction and guidance to believers on the issue that comes up several 
times in the epistles: the difference between Jew and gentile.  The Jews
celebrated their special days such as the new moons (Rosh Chodesh) and 
sabbaths, but the gentiles did not.  Yet it makes no difference in terms of 
salvation through Yeshua, nor does it make a difference in how we ought to 
view one another, we are equal in our inheritance of eternal life and God's
loving kindness.

Finally, Judaism holds that there are things which they are alone are called
to be obedient to, and their are other things wich aply to all humanity.
Those that apply to all humanity are drawn from what God commanded to Noah
(see Genesis 9), who came before Abraham and therefore is not Jewish.  Its 
interesting to compare those things which Judaism holds all people should
observe and those things the Jerusalem council declared to be what the gentiles
should observe when they came to the agreement that gentile believers were not
required to convert to Judaism.  

The following couple of paragraphs go into this in a little more detail.  These
were taken from material for a class that my husband and I taught:

   In addition to recognizing that God is Lord of all creation, and that 
   all peoples belong to Him, Judaism recognizes that there is an ethical 
   obligation on the part of all peoples.  Although the Torah and the 
   obligation to live in a special way - observing the Sabbath and the 
   feasts and dietary laws among other things, were given to the Jewish 
   people, Judaism sets forth seven principles that all people should 
   observe.  These grow out of the commands given by God to humankind when 
   He established his covenant with Noah.  Noah, you remember lived his life 
   before God called out and established the Jewish people.  Genesis 9:4-5 
   specifies two basic commands that were given to Noah and his family - not 
   to eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it, and not to murder another 
   person.  The seven principles which grew out of this, as set down by 
   rabbinic tradition as being binding on all people are:

      To have only one God and not to worship idols;
      To lead a moral life and not to commit adultery or incest;
      To be a useful member of society and not to commit murder;
      To be honest and not to steal;
      To have respect for God and not to blaspheme;
      To have law courts and practice justice;
      To be kind to animals, not to be cruel to them - this last one grows
         out of the command not to eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it,
         or to consume parts of a still living animal.

   Interestingly enough, when the apostles and leaders of the new Christian
   sect met in the council of Jerusalem to determine whether or not Gentiles
   had to convert to Judaism, undergoing circumcision and following the 
   dietary laws, in order to be a follower of Yeshua, the Messiah, they 
   determined that Gentiles did not need to convert, but should observe 
   these principles of living:
 
      Abstain from food polluted by idols;
      Abstain from sexual immorality;
      Abstain from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

So in the end, if a person chooses to follow the Jewish form of observing
shabbat, that's wonderful.  If a person chooses to worship on Sunday, following
the tradition of the gentile church, that' wonderful.  But don't bash the
one who is doing the other.

Leslie

A sweet fragrance, Leslie.
And better said, too.

MM

             <<< Note 382.66 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


>>We know that celebrating the Lord's Supper and listening to sermons was
>>already the common Sunday practice in Paul's time:

>>Acts 20:7: And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came
>>together to break bread, Paul preached to them...

John,

As I mentioned in my last note, there is some ambiguity here.  A scenario
like this could have happened:

    The disciples observed the Jewish shabbat beginning Friday at sunset 
    and ending Saturday night.  Full observance would include not traveling
    beyond a certain distance because anything further than a specificied
    short distance would be considered work.  So Paul, who was planning on
    journeying, would have to wait until after the sabbath passed to begin
    his trip.  The disciples may have gone to the temple or a synagogue 
    for morning and evening worship services, then met for the havdala 
    ceremony as the first stars appeared in the sky on Saturday evening.
    After which they had a meal together, the first meal on the first day
    of the week.  After dinner Paul began preaching, and preached far on 
    into the night because he had much he wanted to tell them before he 
    left the following morning.  

    Continuing on where you left off in Acts 20:7

    "... and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking
     until midnight.  There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we
     were meeting.  Seated in a window seat was a young man named Eutychus, 
     who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on...."

Also, regarding the 2 Thessalonians passage which you cited:

>>2 Thess 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions
>>which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

I looked up the word translated traditions in that text, it's "pardosis"
translitered from the Greek, and the definition says its an ordinance or
precept, ususally specifically refering to Jewish traditionary law.

Leslie

    In another note, Mike Heiser asked about the reading of Psalm 112 by
    a wife to her husband on shabbat, and wondered if that was something
    started by Messianic Jews - (Jewish people who believe that Yeshua is
    the Messiah, but who choose to retain their Jewish identity, observances,
    and traditions) or was more traditional.  In my response, I think I 
    mentioned providing some book recommendations on Shabbat.  It seems to
    me that those recommendations really belong in this notes string, so I'm
    putting them here.

    Since shabbat is so central to Judaism, there is lots and lots of 
    writing available on it, whole books as well as chapters and references
    in other books, so these references are in no way exhaustive, but happen
    to be three things that I have read and would recommend.

 1. "The Jewish Sabbath: A Renewed Encounter" by Pinchas H. Peli, c. 1988,
    Shocken Books.

    This book looks at Shabbat from many different aspects.  For people
    who want to better understand the meaning, significance, and beauty of
    Shabbat, this is an excellant book.  Its author was professor of Jewish 
    Thought at Ben-Gurion University in Israel until his death in 1989.
    Here's a couple of review comments from the back of the book jacket:

    "An elegant, multi-layered introduction to the Sabbath...[This book],
    like the day itself, is reinvigorating for anyone who wants to reawaken
    the spiritual feelings which give rise to Sabbath observance."
                                    - Indianna Jewish Post and Opinion

    "I'm delighted and moved that Pinchas Peli continues to speak to us
    through this book.  The Shabbat is at the heart of Judaism and this book
    gets to the heart of the Shabbat."
                                    - Rabbi Irving Greenberg

 2. "The Art of Jewish Living: The Shabbat Seder" by Dr. Ron Wolfson, c. 1985,
    The Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs & The University of Judaism.

    This is a very practical book for people who want to experience the
    shabbat seder.  The seder, which includes the meal on Friday evenings,
    is one aspect of what it means to observe or keep Shabbat.  This book 
    not only covers the prayers, songs, blessings, and practices, (includes
    Psalm 112) but it shows you the personal nature Shabbat has by inter-
    viewing a number of different families and singles about how they uniquely 
    celebrate Shabbat.  

    After reading this book, rent the video of Fiddler on the Roof and/or 
    A Stranger Among Us, and pay close attention to the Shabbat Seder 
    portrayals in both films.

 3. "Celebrating the Sabbath the Messianic Jewish Way" by Richard & Michele
    Berkowitz, c.1988 & 1991.  Lederer Publications.

    This is a small booklet by the former leader of the congregation Steve
    & Sue McConnell are a part of.  It covers reasons for people to observe
    Shabbat, and has a traditional Shabbat seder (does not include Psalm 112)
    with some unique elements incorporated for those who believe in Yeshua 
    haMoshiach.  It also covers the havadalah service marking the end of 
    shabbat.

From the bibliographies & comments in stuff I have read, I should mention one 
more book which appears to be a Jewish classic on Shabbat.  I have not read 
this one myself though.  The book is "The Sabbath" by Abraham Joshua Heschel,
c 1963, The Jewish Publication Society of America.

    Thank you very much, Leslie!

    
    
    
    Since a signficant portion of the discussion revolves around this
    issue, I've entered the chapter on the subject of the Sabbath.
    
    
			Of Religious Worship
			and the Sabbath Day

[6.112]
1. The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship
and sovereignty over all; is good, and doeth good unto all; and is
therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and
served with all the hearth, and with all the soul, and with all the
might.  But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is
instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that
he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of
men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation or
any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.

[6.113]
2. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost; and to him alone: not to angels, saints, or any other creature:
and since the Fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of
any other but of Christ alone.

[6.114]
3. Prayer with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious
worship, is by God required of all men; and that it may be accepted,
it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of his Holy
Spirit, according to his will, with understanding, reverence,
humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a
known tongue.

[6.115]
4. Prayer is to be made for things lawful, and for all sorts of men
living, or that shall live hereafter, but not for the dead.

[6.116]
5. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching,
and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with
understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of psalms with grace in
the heart; as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of
the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary
religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn
fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their
several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.

[6.117]
6. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now,
under the gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable to, any
place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed: but
God is to be worshipped everywhere in spirit and in truth; as in
private families daily, and in secret each one by himself, so more
solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or
willfully to be neglected or forsaken, when God, by his Word or
providence, calleth thereunto.

[6.118]
7. As it is of the law of nature that, in general, a due proportion of
time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a
positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men in all
ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath,
to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to
the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from
the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the
week, which in Scripture is called the Lord's Day, and is to be
continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath.

[6.119]
8. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due
preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs
beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their
own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and
recreations; but also are taken up the whole time in the public and
private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and
mercy.

      Hi Jeff,
    
        Is your recent reply part of the Westminster Confession?
        If so, I'm not particularly impressed by some of its 
        'scholarship.'
    
        Using scripture alone as guide, how did they come up with
        the idea that the first day of the week is the Lord's day
        and is the 'Christian Sabbath'?
    
        Or to put another way...
    
        Where does scripture state that the first day of the week
        is the Lord's day?
    
        Where does scripture state that the first day of the week
        is the Christian Sabbath?
    
        I don't want the incorporation of any extrascriptural writings.
        Scripture and scripture alone.
        
        Maybe just use your concordance and look up Sabbath and Lord's.
    
    						Thanks!,
    
    						Tony

    
    Hi Tony,
    
    From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God
    appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath; and
    the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the
    world, which is the Christian Sabbath.
    
    1. Genesis 2:3:" And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
    because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
    and made."
    
    2. Acts 20:7: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples
    came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them." 
    
    2. Rev. 1:10: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day."
    
    
    jeff

Jeff,

I don't think it is wrong for people to worship on Sunday, but I also
don't think that either Acts 20:7 nor Revelations 1:10 move the sabbath
from the 7th day to the 1st day, and I think its inaccurate to portray 
it that way.  I wish I had my my Greek interlinear here to look at Acts
20:7 with you.  Interestingly enough, the REB (Revised English Bible)
reads "On Saturday night when we gathered for the breaking of bread...".
For an explanation on Acts 20, please read note 382.71. As far as Revelation
goes, I am wondering what makes people think "the Lord's day" means Sunday?

Leslie

    Hi all,
    
    I have purposely stayed out of this conversation because after reading
    the subject line: "Frequently Asked OT Questions" I just KNEW it was
    going to turn into a Sabbath/Saturday/Sunday conversation.  As a former
    seventh-day sabbath keeper I have done loads and loads of research on
    this topic.  In fact, my friend who is also a former seventh-day
    sabbath keeper has written a book called "The Sabbath, The Law, and The
    Gospel" and he has sent me a copy of the manuscript with permission to
    share it with anyone.  His sources are impeccable [A Greek-English
    Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,
    2nd.; The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English; The New
    Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, UBS 4th Edition, Nestle-Aland
    26th Edition; Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar; etc.].  If you would
    like a copy just drop me a line at TOLKIN::JBROWN and ask for it.  It
    may take a day or two but I will get one out to you.  I highly
    recommend this document!  Especially after reading some of the replies
    here.  ;-)
    
    God Bless,
    Janet Brown
    

>I don't think it is wrong for people to worship on Sunday, but I also
>don't think that either Acts 20:7 nor Revelations 1:10 move the sabbath
>from the 7th day to the 1st day, and I think its inaccurate to portray 
>it that way.  
    
    I think it is perfectly acceptable to portray it that way.  It is
    strictly biblical.  Here we have Jews, who certainly understood the
    Sabbath intimately, portrayed as meeting for fellowship and prayer (a
    reasonable deduction) on the first day of the week, rather than on the
    seventh.  And they even got a sermon!  This *is* the basis for the
    Lord's day now being the first day rather than the seventh.  John, who
    most certainly understood these things, wrote "the Lord's day".  Who is
    "Lord" if not certainly Jesus?  Who arose on Sunday?  It makes perfect
    sense.
    
    I know that SDA and I assume even the Messianic Jews want to maintain
    the OT Sabbath but it seems quite clear to me what the actual practice
    was.
    
    I too will look further into this and report what I find.
    
    jeff
    
    I wish I had my my Greek interlinear here to look at Acts
20:7 with you.  Interestingly enough, the REB (Revised English Bible)
reads "On Saturday night when we gathered for the breaking of bread...".
For an explanation on Acts 20, please read note 382.71. As far as Revelation
goes, I am wondering what makes people think "the Lord's day" means Sunday?

Leslie

>    
>    I too will look further into this and report what I find.
>    

The book quoted in 389.31-32 provides a huge bibliography of references
to life in the 1st and 2nd century Church.

/john

      Hi Jeff,
    
        Its just not nearly enough basis for me.
    
        To me, the Acts text is a huge stretch and the Revelation
        text is an absolutely stupendous stretch.
    
        If you can honestly look at that Rev text and interpret that
        it clearly refers to the 1st day of the week, I really have
        no further desire to discuss this with you!
    
    							Tony

>I looked up the word translated traditions in that text, it's "pardosis"
>translitered from the Greek, and the definition says its an ordinance or
>precept, ususally specifically refering to Jewish traditionary law.

>Leslie
    
    How does this understanding of the word (and the conclusion which you
    draw) square with Paul's vehement opposition to Judaizers? 
    
    jeff

Jeff, the first day of the week began at sunset on Saturday. There is a
special service to mark the end of the sabbath called havdalah. They met
for dinner & Paul preached late into the night.

Leslie

    
>        Its just not nearly enough basis for me.
 
    It's all we've got in terms of biblical texts which speak to the issue
    directly.
       
>        To me, the Acts text is a huge stretch and the Revelation
>        text is an absolutely stupendous stretch.
 
    You can call the Acts text a huge stretch if you like but I think a
    reasonable approach would come to the same conclusion that the
    Reformers did.
       
>        If you can honestly look at that Rev text and interpret that
>        it clearly refers to the 1st day of the week, I really have
>        no further desire to discuss this with you!
 
       
    I don't intend to debate this subject.  I've had my say and am
    in agreement with the orthodox teaching.
    
    jeff

    
    Hi Leslie,
    
    But the point is that its the first day rather than the seventh.
    
    jeff

But that was what we know today as Saturday night not Sunday morning.
If you want to say the Christian church worships on Sunday, that's fine,
but to say that the sabbath was changed to Sunday is an altogether different
thing. I have no problem with people choosing to worship on Sunday. I do 
have a problem with the claim that God changed the sabbath from the 7th day 
to the 1st day of the week. 

Leslie

In my youth, I thought of the 'sabbath' as 1/7 - a seventh, with 'which
seventh' not being terribly significant.  However this misses the point.

Two points (at least!) are relevant here.  One concerns the appointing of
the day.  The sabbath day was identified and blessed by God, because it was
His day of rest after completing creation.  We can only change which day
the sabbath is by changing when God finished creation.  We cannot change
the reality of what God records for us in Genesis, so we cannot change the
sabbath day. From sun down Friday to sun down Saturday is a special day, as
recorded by God: 

Genesis 1:31 - 2:3
    "And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was
     very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
     Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host
     of them.  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had 
     made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he
     had made.  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; 
     because that in it he had rested from all his work which he had made."

In .59, John reminds us that at the resurrection, the LORD Jesus made a new
'8th day' completion, and takes that as a foundation to remember a new '8th
day in every 7' (rather than the last of a new 8 day week) as a day of
remembrance.  I have no big problem with that - it is, after all, pretty
much what I do myself by meeting for worship on a Sunday, though I
understand different reasons for its origin.  However, I do not see this as
replacing or moving the original sabbath in any way.  Merely as a
convenient way of observing Hebrews 10:25 'let us not give up meeting
together...', as well as following the other directions on church assembly
and worship - while permitting observant Christian Jews to participate 
without interfering with their covenant Sabbath observances!

The other relevant point is what we do with this appointed creation-completion
sabbath.  According to my understanding of Colossians 2, while we might
choose to use it as a remembrance, it is not a legal requirement to be held
over us. 

I've pulled in the preceding verses, to show the context of the argument, 
which is saying that the basisi of our salvation is Jesus' sacrificial work 
on the cross, and that however dear we may hold other observations, we are 
not to let them come between us, as more important than fellowhip.

Colossians 2:13-17

   "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your 
    flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you 
    all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that 
    was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the
    way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities 
    and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of 
    an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a 
    shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

ie - we may use the original sabbath as our day to remember the
resurrection, and for worship and fellowship, but that has to be an
individual (or fellowship) choice, rather than an established foundation of
Christianity. The only things that is wrong, according to Colossians 2:16,
is to be legalistic about it. 

Either way, the original Sabbath remains a special - holy - day because of
God's explicit statement.  There is no command for man to treat this 
particular day differently until the ten commandments (ie it's not
mentioned in the Noahic laws).  The day was holy regardless of man's
behaviour, because it reflected God's appointing, rather than how men chose
to use it.  The sabbath was included in the ten commandments specifically
for the Israelites, to identify them with the Creator, God.  This is
clarified in Ezekiel 20:12 : 
    "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me
     and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them."

Not much new here - we've been over this several times, and without
changing our respective positions (this largely restates what I put in .56,
I see!) - but it's still an interesting part of the foundation that God has
laid for our mortality. 

						God bless
								Andrew

      Hi,
    
        As I said before, I am much more eager to share how it is the
        Sabbath points to the everlasting gospel.
    
        I'll give one example.
    
        Hebrews 10:1-4 says that shadow cannot perfect the conscience
        from sin, but very image can.  I believe that Christ's physical
        death and resurrection are shadows pointing to a "very image"
        death and resurrection that took place.
    
        The very image was that death of Romans 7, a death that Paul
        tasted while very much physically alive.  As I said in Jill2's
        topic, the experience of beholding God's love is bittersweet.
        I believe Jesus tasted it to its fulness when He ventured behind
        the veil and saw the full glory of the commandment.  "The 
        commandment came, sin revived, and I died."  
    
        This is what caused Jesus to see the full exceeding sinfulness
        of sin and to "die."
    
        This was the bitter.  This death, the spiritual death of which
        the physical is a mere shadow, is perhaps best described in 
        Psalm 22.
    
        The sweet was Jesus overcoming the awful feelings and the
        temptation to despair.
    
        This was the very image resurrection of which the physical was
        a type.
    
        The Sabbath is an endtime sign of a transition in covenant; a
        transition of a gospel from shadow to very image.
    
        Before the transition, Sunday might seem a fitting memorial to
        the resurrection.
    
        After one begins to embrace very image rather than shadow, one
        sees that both death and resurrection took place ON THE CROSS
        before Jesus physically died.
    
        One then sees that the Sabbath, once again, commemorates a finished
        work.  This time the earthly ministry including the very image
        death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    
        The transition in covenant will reveal much about _what the Sabbath
        reveals_ about the gospel after its shed of shadow and is seen in
        the unveiled glory of very image.
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony
                                    

    
    Tony,  the shadow is the Mosaic Law.  The very image is Christ.
    
    jeff

      Jeff,
    
        Very trite Jeff.  
    
        What are the meanings behind those words?
    
        Have you seen the very image of the cross?
    
        Hebrews says that very image is so powerful that it provides
        the following:
    
        Worshippers do not even remember sin!
    
        Have you beheld that very image Jeff?  Do you remember sin?
    
        Didn't Jesus say to the apostles that He had many things to
        tell them, but they couldn't bear it?
    
        Can we bear all that Jesus waits to tell us pertaining to the
        very image that is His experience?
    
    						Tony

      Which best describes your present spiritual status?
    
      A) I behold as in a glass dimly.
    
      B) I behold the completely unveiled Christ.  I behold very image
         right now.
    
      "For the path of the just is a shining light that shines brighter
       and brighter unto the perfect day."
    
       Oh...my answer is definitely A.
    
    							Tony

    b AND a.
    
    Christ's role as high priest is completely revealed.  I view it dimly
    from the flesh.
    
    jeff

Tony,

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and yet, the more
I learn, them more I know how awesome is God, and God's love for us!

Leslie

    Hi Jeff,  
    
      I am referring to the revelation of Christ that we have actually
      beheld in our conscious existence.
    
    						Tony

Below is my beginning of a study on the Sabbath with emphasis at this stage of
development on the explanation of why orthodox Christianity worships on the
first day of the week rather than the 7th day, the OT Sabbath.  

Like several issues, the Bible does not speak directly to this topic.  But
careful study can bring the facts to light!  I should say that an important
key to understanding the arguments which might be offered is that they make
no sense unless one accepts the truth that the fourth commandment is still
valid today.  That is, one must accept the authority and binding nature of
the Ten Commandments given by God to His people, both Jew and believing Gentile.
Maybe it's better to say that one must believe that The Decalogue is still the
standard of God for righteous behavior.

I should also say that the key to my argument will be deep within Hebrews'
broad context, chapter 4 particularly and the insight provided by the 
quotation of Psalms 95.  If you are interested in this and want to do some 
study you should concentrate on chapters 3 and 4, and the Psalm.  Also, ensure
you understand the context of Hebrews.

I'll attempt to update this over time.  But even as it is there seems to be
a very reasonable deduction to the first day of the week Sabbath or Lord's Day.
Please feel free to raise questions and concerns which I can incorporate over
time.

jeff

******************************************************************************

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit." Rev 1:10

"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread." Acts 20:7

"On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of
money in keeping with his income...so that when I come no collection will have
to be made."  I Cor 16:2

"There remains then a keeping of a Sabbath for the people of God; for he who
did enter his rest did rest from all his works, even as God did from his."
								Heb 4:9-10


Perhaps the easiest way to address the issue and silence the critics of Sunday
worship is to show that the NT saints did worship on the first day of the
week after the resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.  Jesus's early
appearance to the saints came on the first day.  "On the evening of the first
day, when the disciples were together" (John 20:19), Jesus first met with the
gathered disciples. Thomas was not present on that day.  Jesus didn't disclose
Himself to Thomas until the next first day (John 20:26).  A pattern is being
set.

It became the habit of Christians to meet for worship on the first day of the
week.  This was firmly established in the apostolic era.  When Paul wrote to
the *churches* about a special offering for the needy, which he was overseeing,
he instructed people to give on the first day of the week.  Churches in Galatia
and Corinth were to take their collections on this day because they met on the
first day of the week for worship.  When Paul travelled to Jerusalem the last
time and wished to say a personal farewell to the believers at Troas, he
delayed his journey a whole week so that he could meet with the assembly of 
the believers there.  It was on the first day that they gathered for worship
and Paul wanted to be in their midst. (Acts 20:6,7)

John, on the island of Patmos in exile, had his remarkable Revelation.  He
received the vision "on the Lord's Day".  Who was John's Lord?  Jesus Christ
of course!  By this time all Christians understood that the Lord's Day was
the day of the Lord's resurrection and the day Christians everywhere met for 
worship.

      Well, I suppose my suggestion that there is a death and resurrection
      that took place before Christ's physical death and resurrection is
      not being embraced!
    
      As for me, I candidly acknowledge embracing a 'different' gospel
      and it is one wherein the death and resurrection I contemplate
      when I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory
      died is not the one referred to here when people link the 1st
      day to it.
    
      With that, I can't help but see the Sabbath being commemorative
      of the totality of Christ's redemptive work while on earth including
      the "very image" death and resurrection which took place on the
      cross before physical death.  (Thus the seventh day Sabbath once
      again commemorating a finished work.)
    
      Any discussion of the time of physical resurrection is meaningless
      to me in comparison of the very image I am so much more motivated
      (as in the love of Christ motivates me) by.
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony

    Hi Jeff, 

    I'll read what you write, but I do not think you posted anything
    in your previous note that hasn't already been said before, nor 
    that does not have an equal argument in the opposite direction. 
    I still think you are reading into the text something that is not 
    there in Acts 20:7. The literal translation of the Greek, which I 
    looked up at home this morning, is "on the first of the sabbaton".  
    I'll pull in the comments from the Jewish New Testament Commentary 
    when I get home tonight. Some people may find it to be of interest.

    In addition, we have on order a book called from "Sabbath to Sunday". 
    We've heard it referenced a number of times from different sources 
    and speakers. This book talks about the historical evidences regarding 
    how Christians came to worship on Sunday instead of on the Sabbath.
    Its findings are that it was not an "apostolic" change, but came into
    general acceptance much later. When we get the book, I'll summarize 
    what I can for people regarding the historical evidence.

    As far as the money beging gathered on the first day of the week:
    again, I think you read too much into this. First of all, the money
    may or may not have been collected during a meeting time. For sure money
    would not have been collected on Shabbat if they were observing 
    Shabbat in the Jewish tradition because money is not to be handled 
    on Shabbat. Jewish congregations today do not collect offerings during 
    their shabbat services. Most I think have something like annual dues,
    or the congregants may mail in monthly checks. Some Messianic groups 
    do have an monetary offering incorporated as part of their shabbat 
    services, thinking that gifts to God should be looked at differently 
    than ordinary money transactions for trade & commerce, and wanting to
    impress on people that we honor God with our tithes and offerings as
    a form of worship.

    I suppose this is going to become one of those things where we'll go
    back and forth for awhile, and end up as far apart on the issue as when
    we started, so I am going to say right now that I hope this issue will 
    not polarize us as there are plenty of areas where I can find agreement
    with you and your theology, just not this one :-).
   
    I remember years ago, when these Sunday versus Saturday discussions were 
    also going on in the Christian notes file, I said to Tony B, "I do 
    celebrate the sabbath, only I do it on Sunday."  Since that time, I have 
    come to see that one may legitimately worship God on Sunday and choose 
    that as a time to meet together as a corporate body, but it is not the 
    same thing as observing the sabbath. My ideas on why I am now working 
    towards keeping the Sabbath are different from Tony, but I no longer see 
    the sabbath as a 1 day in 7 principle, but a specific day which is the 
    last day of the week, the 7th day. 

    Leslie

    We have a Bible study group that meets on a weekly basis, every 
    Monday night. During our meetings we praise God, study the Word
    together, encourage one another in our faith, and pray for one
    another needs as well.  But I see this as a seperate thing from
    keeping the sabbath.  Again, anyone can choose to meet together
    any time, any day of the week and that is fine. But I maintain that
    the day of the actual sabbath has not changed.

    Leslie

snarf!

    
    I won't let this polarize you and me, Leslie, nor anyone else.  I'll
    just make a case and let the Lord sort out the rest, okay?
    
    jeff

      Hi Tony B., 

>      Well, I suppose my suggestion that there is a death and resurrection
>      that took place before Christ's physical death and resurrection is
>      not being embraced!
         .
         .
         .
>      Any discussion of the time of physical resurrection is meaningless
>      to me in comparison of the very image I am so much more motivated
>      (as in the love of Christ motivates me) by.
    
    
      I think I may have missed your suggestion earlier, but in any case I
      do think that the physical, historical reality of the execution of
      Yeshua on the stake (or cross) is critically importanct. God created
      us as physical beings, set us in a physical, objective world. Spiritual
      reality is as real as physical reality, but I think that one cannot
      disregard that God has chosen to deal with us on both levels. I think
      the physical should not be ignored, minimized, or disregarded in any
      way. Without the physical reality of Yeshua's sacrifice, I do not think
      the spiritual reality would be.

      Sorry if I didn't say this very well. I can't quite seem to wrap the 
      right words around the thought I am trying to convey.

      Leslie
    

>    I won't let this polarize you and me, Leslie, nor anyone else.  I'll
>    just make a case and let the Lord sort out the rest, okay?

Excellent, Jeff.  Thanks

Paul

      Hi Leslie,
    
        I have come to believe that the death and resurrection that
        are *efficacious* took place before physical death.  I don't
        want to minimize the physical death and resurrection either,
        but I'm just being honest here.
    
        The death described in Romans 7:9 and elsewhere is a 'death'
        one experiences all the while being physically alive and
        (VERY IMPORTANT), if context is considered, it is the death
        of Romans 6:23, i.e. "The wages of sin is death."
    
        There is something Jesus tasted all the while through conscious
        existence that took an awesome toll on His heart.  The sum total
        of the pain involved equates to the death of Romans 6:23/Romans 7.
    
        The culmination of this ordeal was an event of triumph.  The
        full weight of sin pressing to the mind the notion to disbelieve
        God's unconditional pardoning love for someone was overcome as
        Jesus held on and believed that His Father completely accepted
        and loved Him.  The oppressive, deceptive nature of sin, in its
        totality was vanquished by the faith of Jesus.
    
        That (to me) is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that 
        is efficacious for our redemption.  The physical is a school-
        master pointing to this one.
    
        Of course, the shed blood that is efficacious also is not of the
        physical variety.  It is a blood sprinkled in the sanctuary
        (consciousness) of man.
    
    							Tony

RE:         <<< Note 382.74 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


>>I looked up the word translated traditions in that text, it's "pardosis"
>>translitered from the Greek, and the definition says its an ordinance or
>>precept, ususally specifically refering to Jewish traditionary law.
>
>>Leslie
>    
>    How does this understanding of the word (and the conclusion which you
>    draw) square with Paul's vehement opposition to Judaizers? 
>    
>    jeff


     Hi Jeff,

     I hadn't meant to skip over your question, sorry for the lapse of a 
     few days in responding to it. 

     I had a few minutes this afternoon to read through all of 1st & 2nd 
     Thessalonians - which is where the word paradosis, which my January note
     referenced, was from. So I now feel more prepared now to put in a reply.

     From these letters, I gather that Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy had 
     spent some time with the Thessalonians initially, when they first 
     brought them the news/truth/information about Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah,
     their redeemer.  Now Paul writes some reinforcement for them to
     continue faithfully in the path in which they had started after coming 
     to know Yeshua as their Redeemer. This includes holding firm to their 
     faith in God and His Salvation, AND living out this faith by being 
     obedient to God's commands. In chapter 4 of 1st Thessalonians, Paul 
     talks about living obedient, holy lives:

         And now, friends, we have one thing to ask of you, as fellow
         Christians. We passed on to you the tradition of the way we
         must live if we are to please God; you are indeed already fol-
         lowing it, but we beg you to do so yet more thoroughly. You 
         know the rules we gave you in the name of the Lord Jesus. This
         is the will of God, that you should be holy: you must abstain
         from fornication; each one of you must learn to gain mastery
         over his own body, to hallow and honor it, not giving way to 
         lust like the pagans who know nothing of God; no one must do
         his fellow Christian wrong in this matter, or infringe his rights.
         As we impressed on you before, the Lord punishes all such offenses.
         For God called us to holiness, not to impurity.  Anyone who flouts
         these rules is flouting not man but the God who bestows on you 
         His Holy Spirit.                        verses 1-8 REB

      Paul continues his discourse on conduct with further teaching on love
      and respect, but I'll stop with verse 8.  Notice this line: "We passed 
      on to you the tradition of the way we must live if we are to please God". 
      I don't have my Interlinear here, so I'm not sure if 'tradition' in this
      statement is also paradosis. Regardless, it sounds like Paul & company 
      spent some time teaching the Thessalonian believers what it means
      to live holy lives. I would think that appropriate sexual behavior was
      only one area of teaching. Much of the teaching, I am sure, came from
      the Torah because God shows people what it means to be holy through
      His Torah. 

      This is different from Judaizing which held that obedience to halacha 
      made one superior and righteous, and that one could not have salvation 
      and eternal life except through converting to Judaism. I do not see a 
      change in the N.T. regarding how salvation was found; it has always been
      by God's grace through faith in Him and in the promised Messiah. Torah 
      was to teach a redeemed people how to live, it was not for the purpose 
      of redeeming them. The sequence is the same. God redeemed from Egypt, 
      then taught them the Torah. Yeshua paid the price, and the redeemed are 
      shown how to live by the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures
      - O.T. & N.T. both.
  
      In the 2nd letter, I think Paul refers to the same teachings and
      traditions on how to live lives pleasing to God:

         "Stand firm then, my friends, and hold fast to the traditions
         which you have learned from us by word or by letter. And may
         God our Father, who has shown us such love, and in his grace 
         has given us such unfailing encouragement and so sure a hope, 
         still encourage and strengthen you in every good deed and word."

      Paul is encouraging them to hold fast to their faith, and also to 
      hold fast to the holy way of living they have been taught. I think 
      it is interesting that he specifically says "good deed and word". So 
      much concern of Torah is in doing good deeds - being fair, compassionate,
      generous, and honest with one's fellow man, and in guarding one's tongue
      to speak only things that will influence for good rather than bad.
      Remember Jesus own statement about the greatest of the commandments:
      to love God with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

      Somehow, there seems to be a widespread idea in Christianity that to 
      live in accordance to Torah, to see it as a good thing, is to deny
      Yeshua. Yet Yeshua himself taught from the O.T. scriptures.  As an
      example, if you look at what is known as the beatitudes in a Bible with 
      good cross-references you'll find that just about everything in there 
      has an O.T. (Torah) cross-reference. As an example, compare Matthew 5:4 
      with Psalm 37:11.

      So there should be a balance. Because we love God and have experienced 
      his grace we should all desire to obey His moral law. Indeed, a natural
      outgrowth of our rebirth in Messiah is to desire to please God. However,
      this does not mean that we throw away grace and try to earn justification
      through acts of the law. This is what Paul so robustly taught against
      in Galations and other letters he wrote. I see such a clear difference
      between self-righteousness, self-justifying legalism, and desiring, out
      of a response of love and awe to be obedient to the way of living God 
      has revealed through the Torah. Don't be concerned about the tithes of
      mint & rue & garden vegetables, but do not neglect jutice and the 
      love of God. (see Luke 11) - how much this too sounds like something
      straight from the prophets of the O.T.!  - see Micah 6:8.

  I hope this answers your question.

  Leslie

    
    
    Hi Leslie,
    
    Nice response!  There's much in your note of value.  I'm particularly
    in agreement with the idea that Christians are bound by the morality of
    the OT Covenant which is represented in The Decalogue, the Ten
    Commandments written in stone by the finger of God Almighty Himself.
    So many Christians today have been taught (as I was in several
    churches) that we are bound by nothing really!  Of course, all
    Christians sense the error in this idea from the Spirit that is in them
    but don't really have anywhere to go to here the truth! 
    Many of us have become antinomians.  I am learning how integral
    observing the moral law is to a clear conscious before God and a closer
    relationship with Him.  And thankfully, I have a wealth of teachers,
    books and history on which to ponder this reality.
    
    At any rate, I still find there to be an inconsistency in the idea that
    Paul would promote the seventh-day Sabbath in light of the spectacular
    revelation of Jesus Christ, who rested from His works on the first day
    of the week rather than the seventh.
    
    Unfortunately I will not be able to participate much in this or any
    other topic since my workload has increased dramatically.   But I'll do
    my best!
    
    jeff 

      Hi Jeff,
    
        Is it significant to you that Jesus rested on the Sabbath after
        He physically died on the cross?
    
    						Tony

Was he resting, or preaching the Gospel to the dead?

Remember, the Apostles' Creed, which has the same authority as the Bible,
states that he descended to the dead.  While it doesn't state exactly
what he was doing there, the example of his life would suggest that he
was offering salvation to the Old Testament saints and others.

/john

>Remember, the Apostles' Creed, which has the same authority as the Bible

Not according to the standards of this conference.

Paul, with moderator hat on