Conference wahoo::fishing

    I watched a guy trying to use a Z6000P on the ice a few  weeks  ago.
    He  tried to use it through a hole, which didn't work.  The unit did
    look impressive though.

    The Eagle Z6000 looks like a good bet  for  trout/salmon  fishermen.
    It  has  a  deeper  capability than the Hummingbird 2000 & 4000.  It
    also has  more  display  segments,  which  should  give  you  better
    separation.

    If someone out their would like to  buy  my  Hummingbird  Silent  60
    Birdtrap portable I'll buy an Eagle.

    As for ordering one, Zylas in Merrimack has the Z6000P in stock, for
    $259.


    Keith

    Well, here I go again............I have the Hummingbird 2000 and
    use it all the time. I think that the LCR is one of the best things
    to come down the pike since the invention of the depth finder. It
    is easy to use and gives you a fairly good look at what is down
    there. The picture is  not quite as "clear" as a chart recorder,
    but much better than a flasher, where you can miss things to easy.
    The new models promiss even better resolution, if I can believe
    the ads and pictures they are showing. Price is not "real" bad either.
    
    Good investment Ed........The low current drain lets you run it
    all day and the alarm feature can tip you off to things you might
    have missed by being to busy fishing (or driving).
    
    I mounted mine on the console where it can be swung around and be
    seen from the front seat or from the drivers seat. One little thing
    I find that doesn't work to well is the night light.
    
    The only think that I think of to warn new buyers about, is mounting
    the transducer. There is quite a write up on making sure it is done
    right, because if not it will not work right (false echos and such).
    
    Tight lines and enjoy, Ron (will_spring_ever_come?)

    
    
     One of the guys I know who has a Z6000 also tryed to run it for
    ice fishing, the key, from what I gather, is to mount your transducer
    on a stick and to get it completely below the ice, not just aim
    it down the hole. If your hanging it in the hole you get all sorts
    of weird sh_t from reflections off the sides of the hole, mucho
    clutter, etc. Once he got it down on the stick it apparently worked
    good, shoing 1.5" to 2" bait hanging at 20 ft...thats good resolution.
    
    Cabela's has Z6000P on sale right now (spring catalogue) for $249.99,
    I heard a rumoor Gander Mountain beats this price by about ten bucks
    but who's to quibble.
    
    I intend to use mine for trout and salmon from a 16 FT canoe, rigging
    some sort of sidemount which can be raised in the shallow and when
    scraping rocks is my plan........more input to this note appreciated!
    Specially form any similar users.........Ed
    
    

    I presently own a Lowrance portable flasher (up for sale) and am
    intending to buy the Eagle 6000 for my 14' canoe.  Instead of buying
    the portable unit which takes up too much floor space, I'm planning
    on mounting it on the thwart and on a swivel mount so that either
    I or my fishing partner can see it.  
    
    I've given some thought to mounting the transducer on my elec. trolling
    motor (as recommended by many manufacturers), but I personally don't
    care for that idea as it exposes the transducer to the first rock
    you hit (see diagram below).  Instead, I'm going to continue using the 
    suction cup mount as it works just fine and can be mounted anywhere on 
    the hull.
    
   		  		| |
      		 		| |
   	   			| |
  		  		| |
    			   -----  ---  /\
       		          |          \_\/
        	 	  |__________/ /\
          		   |_|  \  \   \/
                	    ^	 \__\
  exposed transducer -------|      ^
                                   |----- keel or skeg
    
    -Joe-
    
         

    Many years ago, I used a depth finder for salmon fishing.  The
    transducer mounted on the hull with a suction cup.  The only real
    problem I had with it was that I would forget that it was down there
    and take off at 60MPH.  It would come loose and slap violently on
    the side of the boat.  I think I broke it, eventually.  Just for
    info, if you have a fast boat, keep it in mind.
    
    Spence

    Until I mount a 50hp Merc on my canoe, I don't think it will be
    a problem....

    Samething happened to me last year except the coaxial cable 
    got into the prop and boy what a mess that was.
    
                                           Heed The Warning

                                               Jack

    If I were to buy a LCR or LCG right now, my choice would be the
    Eagle Z6000.  For the price and the features you can't go wrong,
    and I agree with Ron about these being the best thing since the
    depth finder.  Who wants to mess with rolls of expensive graph 
    chart recorder paper?  The one advantage of these is a permanent
    record of a location or a bottom contour, and that's not too important
    for me since I remember where I catch or don't catch any fish.
    
    I have a Humminbird 4000 which I acquired before the Lowrance put
    out theirs.  I knew it was coming out with more features and to
    compete with Humminbirds, but I couldn't wait.  That's the way the
    new technology goes.  Since then, Humminbird has upgraded theirs
    and also came out with a new one.  Anyway, I chose mine for trolling
    in moderately deep water (< 120') on inland ponds and lakes and
    am quite satisfied with it's performance.  The Z6000 with 2600 pixels
    should have better screen definition then the LCR4000 which has
    1800.  The features such as fish alarm and bottom alarm will let
    you concentrate more on fishing than on watching the screen.  The
    Z6000 has a 20 degree transducer which is fine for most fishing.
    The Humminbird has a 16 degree transducer which is more to my liking
    for deeper water.  This is the angle of the cone shot from the "eye".
    The shallower the water the wider the angle you want to see more
    around you.  If in deep water, you want to see what's under you
    and not something that might be in a 50' radius in any direction
    around you.  A protractor and some graph paper can give you a reference
    of the area your looking at for any particular depth.
    
    As for some suggestions, read the owner's manual thoroughly.  Where
    ever you mount the transducer make sure it's away from any turbulence.
    It will not work properly shooting through air bubbles, also a small
    change in the tilt and depth of the transducer can make large
    improvements.   I have mine mounted on a trolling motor with the
    cable tied to the shaft at appropriate spots and have no complaints.
    If I'm in real shallow water I have the trolling motor raised out
    of danger.  The "eye" must be kept clean from oil, dirt, etc. to
    operate properly.  A mild liquid detergent is fine if it really
    gets that dirty.  Also, if out of the water for an extended amount
    of time, the "eye" may be reluctant to becoming thoroughly "wetted".
    Rubbing with your fingers in the water will help remove any surface
    trapped air bubbles or film.
    
    Having  manual sensitivity control allows more information to be
    detected such as a hard rock bottom or a soft muddy one.  Don't
    be fooled by a double echo of the bottom if the sensitivity is too
    high, but increasing the sensitivity can pick up more in the water
    to the point of schools of very small bait fish or suspended matter.
    I think I have been able to detect the thermocline even but won't
    be able to confirm this till I get my temperature probe.  When I'm
    just cruising along or lazy, I'll have the sensitivity on AUTO.
    
    I'll start a new response on some of the new products and features
    that I think are interesting.
    
    Good luck and good fishing...
    
    Steve
    

    Here is a tip for using fish finder durring ice fishing season,
    
    As was said in an earlier note, if you use a fish finder for ice
    fishing there is always the problem of false echos and such. in
    one of the replys it was suggested that you tie the transducer to
    a stick and lower it into the water this will work but I have found
    a way to check for fish before you drill your hole. I was talking
    with my dad and he told me that he and his buddys did this for years
    with great success, by now you are saying get to the point Jack
    so I will. next time you go ice fishing bring along a small amount
    of water, wet the transducer and the ice next place the transducer
    on the wetted spot on the ice it will soon freeze to the ice thus
    the transducer will treat the ice as water alowwing you to see what
    is down there before you take the time to drill your hole. I have
    never tried this personnally but if you can't trust your own dad
    who can you trust, why don't some of you guys that still have ice
    on try this and let me know if I really can trust my him.
    
    
                         Jack   Waiting_to_here_from_you_on_this_one!!

    Jack,
    
    I've tried what you suggested....putting water on top of the ice
    and placing the transducer in the water.  It still never worked.
    From what I can gather, if the ice is white in color, it means that
    there is a lot of air in the ice and the signal from the transducer
    can't penetrate.  The best condition for scanning thru the ice is
    when you have "black ice," i.e. no air in the ice.  I've seen pictures
    of this before but have never personally seen it.  Apparently it
    is quite rare and I don't know what causes this condition.  Anyone
    care to elaborate on what causes "black ice"?
    
    -Joe- 
    

    When prices are this high, I like to look and wait till they drop
    which they usually do.  Looking at Humminbird's new LCR 8000, we
    should be seeing some strides in performance, functionality, and
    practicality in the way of sonar.  This has it all to date.  A new
    6"x4" viewing screen with 16 half-screen memory should satisfy just
    about anyone.  A big difference that goes along with this is the
    split screen operation.  This is like having two in one.  One to
    look at the big picture (full depth) and another to be kept in ZOOM
    to monitor in detail the bottom for structure or a particular depth
    range in search of suspended fish.  It has all the other alarms
    and digital depth readout and also an optional surface temperature
    input.  Now we're getting somewhere.  When the other manufacturers
    come out with theirs we'll have a regular hi-tech sonar wars going
    on.  All the while the prices will surely drop.  I'd rather have
    one piece of gear that can do it all then to have to be concerned
    with several at once.
    
    Now the one that has really caught my eye and I believe is going
    to change people's way of looking at things is the Micronar M-810
    Side-Scanning  LCD from Si-Tex.  This truly seems to be the correct
    method of using sonar to me.  Previously, a 3 dimentional cone is
    shot below, compressed and displayed as a 2 dimentional vertical
    line.  As this scrolls to the left, the majority of the screen
    just becomes history.  There is no way of telling what you see is
    directly below you or to the right or left.  It's sort of a flat
    picture of what you pass over parallel to the boats direction of
    travel.  With this side scanning technique, you have a very narrow
    beam being scanned side to side an displaying a 2 dimentional picture
    perpendicular to the boats travel.  This accurately shows you what
    is under and to the sides of you at all times.  As the boat moves
    forward the 3rd dimention comes into play by the screen constantly
    updating and giving the impression of the data scrolling to the
    viewer.  The history is in the viewer's mind to speak of sort of.
    If I were trolling a pond that had a old river channel on the bottom,
    I could stay right on top of that channel at all times.  When the
    channel moves left I would steer left.  If there was a drop off
    next to the shore I was fishing along.  It would be no problem to
    keep right next to it at all times.  You cannot do this with the
    other method without a lot of manuevering and some quesswork. With
    the side scanning, if you are stationary what you see is what is
    there at the moment.  With the other, if there was a fish stationary
    below you it would display as a line scrolling right across the
    screen.  This would happen even if you were moving and the fish
    was moving along with you.  I've seen this happen and at first I
    thought either there are some long eels around or a new world record.
    Anyone have any thoughts on this?
    
    Steve       

    
    
    
    Technology marches on, the LCR 8000 IS a super machine, at the present
    the price is also "super"...in a year or so it will come down a
    bit but it'll be a while before we see major decreases on the upper
    end of the scale....on the lower end...there are several LCD units
    pirced at $150 or less....admitted they do not have the massive
    bells and whistles of the top line units..but for the low end user
    who is not demanding stringent performance they would do the job.
    
    The side scanner is likely the best innovation yet if it works as
    advertised......however for the present the cost of it and the 8000
    remains more than I could swing under the "just some more fishin
    stuff, honey" line of reasoning. Also, there's the question of
    portability. I beleive that for side scanning to be effective one
    would need a permanent thru the hull mount to preserve accuracy..
    Because of the amount of POWER needed to pull off side scan techniques
    I rather doubt that a portable unit will be along in the near future.
      
    Like everthing else one must make tradeoffs.
    
                                                 Tight Lines
    
                                                      Ed
    
    

    Side scan is great, but present one problem that I haven't seen
    the answer for yet (anyone else?). All the ones I'm familar with
    rely on the "probe" being at some depth and not just on the surface.
    The one they used to find the Titanic was pulled along at 1000'+.
    Seems to me that to be affective the probe would have to be
    submerisible to various depths. (????)
    
    The idea of being down with the fish and looking across the water
    for them and struture would be neat. I just don't know how you do
    it from the bottom of a boat.
    
    Tight lines, Ron
   

    
    Side scanning sonar as used for the titanic search is a considerable
    different type of beast than what we are talking here...it uses
    highly sophisticated "windows" which project the sonar "beams" out
    to the sides at considerable power....thus needed to be towed deep.
    
    I beleive the Micronar must either a multiple transducer array or
    some means of electrically rotating the transducer axis to do the
    side scanning...also a lot of it is not in how you scan but how
    process the timing data coming back from the receiver. Must use
    a lot of mirrors?:^)
    
    
    
    

    Thanks Ed,
    
    I figured it had to something like that. The processing must be
    a ball. Multiple angle data and making sense out of it.......ugh!
    
    If anyone happens to see one in action, I'd be interested in the
    results. I somehow like the idea of being able to look more toward
    where I'm going to cast.
    
    Tight lines, Ron

    Side scanning seems great, but I question its relative merits when
    the majority of bass fishing is done is waters less than 15'. I'm
    sure that the unit doesn't reach out that far in shallow waters. Second,
    does the unit actually tell you the distance to the side relative
    to your position and the actual water depth?  If not and it only
    indicates the direction, how does one know how far out to cast and
    how deep to go??
                                                                     
    -Joe-

    I don't claim to have all the answers for this piece of gear, but
    in reply to Joe's question in -.1 there appears to be a lot of merit
    to this.  A few more of the features that I've read are selectable
    ranges of the scan.  The choice of 30, 45, or 60 degrees to the
    right, the left, or directly under the boat.  Under normal operation,
    it scans 45 degrees to the left and to the right.  That is a 90
    degree angle of view!  Now I'm more interested in deeper water;
    however, it really doesn't matter.  In 15' of water scanning 45
    degrees to the left and to the right, we're talking covering 15'
    out to the left and 15' out to the right.
                |->               /|\  <--45 degrees right and left
                |                / | \
                |              /   |   \
                15'          /     |     \
                |          /    90 |90     \
                |->      /45_______|______45 \                   
                         ^         ^
                         |__15'____| 
    
    I hope this kind of shows what I mean.  Now you can never cover
    this ground with a 16 or 20 degree type cone.  With those in 15'
    of water we're looking at maybe a 5' circle on the bottom and less
    the shallower you go.  The other important feature is the cursor
    which can be moved vertically and horizontally anyway on the screen
    like to a fish.  The read out tells you the depth, distance and
    direction.  This could be done after freezing the display to prevent
    losing your target if moving.  As Ed has said, I certainly expect
    the scanning is electronic within the transducer.  It comes with
    a gimbal mount to be easily installed on a trolling motor.  I'm
    am going to try and get the rundown from the manufacturer and post
    what I find.
    
    Steve
    
    

AHHHH...I have received and tested by Z6000-P......what fun....these
    things are the answer if one needs to know the bottom contour of
    a pond or lake......VERY effective......all I have used is the auto
    matic functions as there are a lot of buttons and I like to fish
    and not fiddle this time of year......it will track no problem into
    water as shallow as three or four feet before losing bottom lock...
    for what its worth as our ponds and lakes are clear enuf to see
    bottom as those depths no problem.  In water less than ten feet deep
    it does take a few seconds to find bottom, but once locked on it
    tracks quite well...I am completely satified with this unit....
    
    No help from the finder but as a "aside" I did get out fishing recently
    and "exercised" a "few" brook trout......fifty two in fact....ranging
    from 8 to about 13 inches.....ouch  ...my arm hurts....can type
    any longer...
    
                                                         Tight Lines
    
                                                         Ed
            
    
    
    
    

    
    Info on LCR's and LCD's for '87'
    
    Humminbird has a new unit called the LCR4-ID.
    This displays fish (hmmm! targets, in red). That's right, 2 color!
    They've up'd the vertical pixel count from 60 to 75 which means
         better resolution and separation. They say 1.25" resolution
         when zooming.
    Sounds like it haz variable zoom windows.
    Doesn't seem to have memory  and doesn't have split screen
    Depth scale is displayed along the edge of the LCR readout
    Displays temperature if you have the optional probe kit
    definitely worth looking at. The rest of the lins is about the 
       same. These birds seem to have nice user features but they've
       not done a great deal to improve the electronics performance
       this year.
    
    EAGLE has the new Z7000
    It's in the Pro shop catalogue fro about $450
    Big change is the have 192 vertical pixels and grey scale. The graphics
       look nice and has 1.5" resolution.
    Very high power (312 watts rms) going and goes down to about 1000'
    has 9 deph ranges
    has 8 zoom window sizeswhich can be positioned in 1' increments
    with the speed sensor option (at about $30) you get 
       temperature from 0.0 to 99.9 degrees. 
       digital speedometer
       trip log (miles traveled)
    Grayline for hard/soft bottom determination
    has on-line menus for "more advanced" features
    Does not have memory
    Has full automatic mode with bottom lock
    manual mode looks like a straight forward user interface
    
    LOWRANCE has the X-5 as its top of the line
    This unit has everything the Z-7000 has plus more ...
    Has memory for saving screens (doesn't say how many)
    Display temp in F or C
    Display depth in Ft, Fa, Meters
    total variable depth ranges (you give upper/lower)
    total variable zoom (you specify window, min window is 10')
    Keypad entry for data. Kepad set up like a calculator with the 2nd
       function button.  Gives you more control than the Z-7000 but
       is a little more difficult to learn to operate.
    The unit will sell for around $450 but that does not include a
       transducer. To give more functionalitat about the same price
       they take away the transducer. A transducer for these is about
       $25 if you shop.  The speed sensor is also an additional $30.
    
    
    The other lowarance/eagle products are the
    Z6100, Z5000 eagles and the lowrance X4 which all have 82 vertical
    pixcels and 50-75 watts of power.  They are in the $200-$300 range
    and functionality varies with price.
    
    One question !! With all the bells an whistles in these things,
    how come nobodys units have a clock?
    
     

    Thanks for the info. I already have the Z6000 and think it's great!
    I use it up front next to my electric trolling motor. Back at my
    console I have a Lowrance Flasher unit for navigational purposes.
    I've been reluctant to buy a gragh (like other "well rigged" boats)
    because I'm not interested in keeping paper, so I've been waiting
    for a "gragh like" LCR to come along. Well from what you've said
    and what I've read the X5 is the answer. 
    Having a LCR already I find that the best thing about it is that
    I can keep it on allllll the time.... I think, no I'm sure, it's
    improved my fishin. I can see and interpret things much more accurately
    and can see FISH!!!!!!! I normally don't use it in the automatic
    mode but add more sensitivity and keep it off "auto ranging". This
    allows me to see more fish and to have the widest gap displayed
    between the surface and bottom. Oh, by the way, I usually put 
    2 or 3 feet for my upper limit to eliminate the junk at the top
    of the screen.
    
    
    			anybody interested in buying a good flasher??
                     		0-30' and 0-60' scales, 400 watts
    
    						Jim

    I also have a lowrance flasher a model 2330 tri-range and for a
    flasher I can't think of any 'd rather have.  I'm goint to upgrade
    to an X5 or Z7000 because flashers have 2 inherrent problems
       a) if your not looking you don't see and id rather fish
       b) they don't work well trying to find fish on the bottom (at
           least I've not had much success).
    I'm really looking forward to the new units because they seem almost
    as powerful chart recorders.
    

    Anyone know if the transducer connections on an Eagle flasher and an 
    Eagle LCR are the same?  How about the connections for a Hummingbird 
    flasher and an Eagle LCR?	Why do I ask, you might ask?
    
    I've decided that I'm gonna pick up a flasher sometime over the
    winter.  Yes, I'd much rather get an LCR but at 3 times the cost, it'll
    have to wait.  Anyway, my partner has an Eagle Z6000 on his (non-bass) 
    boat thatI'd like to be able to use on mine.  (last year the
    trasnducer wasn't mounted permanently so we could swap it between
    boats, next year he's gonna mount it right)  So, I figure if I can get
    a flasher with a compatible transducer, then I should be able to
    unplug the flasher and plug in the LCR.  Possible?
    
    Don Mac

    All Eagle and Lowrance transducers are interchangeable between flashers
    LCD's and charts. Even the connectors are identical with one exception,
    some of the older model transducers use a phone jack which can be
    replaced.  In fact the're more than interchangeable, their identical
    units with different part numbers and the Eagle transducers are
    less expensive due to the Lowrance marketing strategy.
    
    I've been trying to find out if a Humminbird transducer is 
    interchangeable for a long time. I've asked all the companies if
    they were interchangeable and they all say no, but won't give a
    reason.  They all say the unit won't perform correctly.  I'd
    be willing to bet they are interchangeable but can't prove it.
    It wouldn't surprse me if the'y were both made by the same vendor.
    
    If your shopping you may be interrested to know that I have the
    owners manual for the Eagle Z7000 and the Lowrance X5 and could
    send you a copy.  In my opinion these 2 units are in a class
    by themselves.
    
    Frank
    

    Re: .23
    
    There are differences in the "cone angle" of the transducers made,
    but more importantly there are different frequencies on which the
    units operate on.  This would account for some transducers not
    correctly operating on other units of a different frequency.  This
    frequency determines how often the signal is sent and received by
    the transducer.  This specification is not always shown in the ad
    but the manufacturer or manual will be able to tell you.
    
    Steve_who's_been_busy_and trying_to_catch_up
    
    p.s. Nice going Dave B. on your Atlantic Salmon catch (and release)!
    Congratulations!

    Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear!
    
    Thanks anyway, but I don't think I need the LCR manuals. 
    
    Don Mac

    Don,
    
    I interchanged my Humingbird flasher with my LCR and had no problems.
    
    If you would like to talk "flasher" I may have one for you. Send
    mail if interested............
    
    Tight lines, Ron
  

    If interested , I have a Lowrance flasher (1 year old )that is for
    sale at a right price . It is a model 2460B , operates at 192 KHZ,
    will sell with or without the transducer . Have all of the books
    etc. which came with it . 250 watt .
    If interested send mail or call DTN 271-6975
     

    
    RE; Aboot the last 5
    
        Ye've loast masel here,..bit yese ken yer stuff!!
    
    				Trapper
    

    Hey Frank,
    
    I read over the owner's manuals you sent me and I must say, very
    impressive!! The X5 from Lowrance is head and shoulders ahead of
    the competition. It looks like you made a good decision and I'll
    probably follow in your footsteps when I order my X5. The only 
    thing I may do differently is get my unit locally. When I bought
    my Z6000, I bought it from Northern Bass, formally in Exeter NH
    now they have a whse. in Brentwood on Rt125. I had a problem with
    it's functions and was able to get a replacement immediately. I
    know the owner (Barry Hunt, former salesman at Driscoll's Marine
    of Seabrook) and he's  very easy to deal with. Their prices are
    very competitive and if not there's always Zylas Auction in Merrimack. 
    In any case, I hopefully I won't have to deal with a catalog, their
    either back ordered my stuff, sending me things I didn't order, or worse
    yet the stuff doesn't WORK! (nothing like buying things off a shelf).
    
    
    					Thanks again for the info.
    
    							Jim

I recently picked up an lcr and could use some suggestions on installation.
Aha, you exepected questions on mounting the transducer, but alas, I'm talking
about the display unit.  Since Ol' Stump Jumpa's driven from the transom, I'd
like to be able to move the display from here   to   here, without much trouble.
The boat is aluminum	                  |            |   (what graphics!)
so I'm kinda concerned			  v	       v
about the vibrations		----------------------------
the unit would absorb	  motor	|   |  |	|  |      ||  troll. motor
if I attached it 		|   |  |  	|  |	  ||  
directly to the gunnel,		----------------------------
but the gunnel would be the the most convenient place for it.  For those 
unfortunate souls who did not partake in either of the DEC Bass'n tournaments, 
SJ is a narrow 14ft john boat, that is trucktopped, not trailored.  That means 
the unit, along with motors, battery, seats, etc., will be installed and 
removed each trip ( = pain in the a**).  However the transducer and cable will 
be permanent. 

I've considered c clamps, velcro, magnets...

Any pros/cons/suggestions out there?			Don Mac

    DON,
    I saw on one of Roland Martin's shows that he had his graph recorder
    mounted on a carpeted piece of 2X10 which was very portable. The
    wood is heavy enough to keep the unit from tipping and the carpet
    shock absorbed the unit in heavy water. With long wires the unit
    can be moved anywhere in the boat for easy viewing.
    
    
    					Jim

    Geez, Don, I dunno?  How's an LCR gonna tell you where the bottom
    is?  I mean, with all the stuff you carry in Stump Jumpa, adding
    one more thing like the LCR is gonna make the LCR say bottom is
    ZERO feet....'cause you're gonna be sitting on the bottom!
    
    ...then you'll have to turn the transducer around to see how far
    UP the surface is!  (maybe we'll have a first-hand report on how
    water-proff they really are!)
    
    -HoleShot-(wonderin_how_long_Don_can_tread_water!)
    

    Buy a swivel mount and put it on the middle set.  Then you can see
    from the front and the back!!!
    
    Might what to get two transducers.  If the SJ does the same thing
    the one I own, the sturn comes too far out of the water when I am
    fishing by my self and standing in the front.
    
    If you buy 2 put the other one on your trolling motor!
    
    bb

    
    I have a similar situation.  I take my electronics in a small boat
    and like to move it around.   I attached my gimbal mount to a piec
    of 4x4 that's about 9 inches long.  The 4x4 has plenty of weight
    so it never tips.  I left the cables long enough to move it around
    the floor or put it up on a seat.  Works well for me!
    
    Frank

    
    
    Take off your polaroids..it helps....E
    

RE.31,34	Hmmm, sounds possible, although SJ's kinda narrow and I 
don't much floor room....  But if it's good enough for Roland, I guess it should
be good enough for me!

RE.32	Poor Holeshot... He's still upset about his embarrassing moment at 
the NH tourney.  He had heard all the talk about LCR's, but showed up ith a 
VCR instead of an LCR. Better get your hearing aid checked Joe...
Poor ol' guy...

RE.33 	I considered mounting it on the seat Bob, but I have a pair of swivel 
clamp-on seats that take up must of the room on each bench.  Also, the 
distance between the 2 seats is about 6', that's a little far.  And yea, I've 
thought about the dual transducers also, that's a definite future enhancement.

No comments on gunnel mounting?

Don Mac

Going to mount the lcr on the new boat tomorrow. Couple questions:

The Hummingbird manual states to mount the transducer a bit below the bottom
of the boat(A) - I'm pretty sure that at the expo, Hugh Wilbur stated that
they should be mounted flush with the bottom (B)...???

A) T-----	B) T______

On the new boat, there's a lip around the bottom of the transom(C).  I'm probably 
going to mount a wooden block to the transom and then mount the transducer 
bracket onto that - knowing that I'll probably have to replace the wooden
block eventually (year or two).

	 	  |
C)	  lip -> _|_______		Comments or suggestions?

    
Re:.37 Don Mac

If possible, mounting flush with the bottom is preferred.  This would
create less chance of snagging weeds and hitting objects causing damage.
One reason to mount lower then the bottom is to avoid hull turbulence
and air bubbles rolling under the boat and across the face of the transducer.
Before permanently attaching, I would want to try it out flush with the
bottom and moving it horizontally along the back until I was sure of a 
clean signal at all usable boat speeds.  If there was any interference 
then I would lower it till the interference was gone.  This is time 
consuming and easier said then done, but once completed there will be 
less headaches.

Are you using some kind of kick-up mount or able to raise and lower the
transducer?   If not, you have to be very careful when putting the boat
in the water and taking it out or beaching to prevent the transducer from
getting damaged.
                                                        
Those are my thoughts.... Steve
              

    Not being much better about this than you Don, here's my 2 cents
    worth...
    Keith Dillsworth said that his transducer (portable,stuck on transom)
    would get "blacked out" by bubbles when he was going any faster
    than trolling speed but he did continue to get the bottom reading...
    (right Keith?).
    Well, Gander has this neato kickup transducer bracket that gets
    the transducer below the "noise" (they say)...looks like it drops
    the transducer about 3-4" below the hull...mounts on the transom.
    I've ordered one hoping I can avoid the "noise". 
    Maybe you could set something up like that...

    Don, Steve has got it right..........mount it flush if you can and
    remember to keep it level...don't be fooled by the transom edge.
    I've had two different types of mounts from Hummingbird. One is
    mounted flush against the transom and the other slightly off the
    transom. In either case it is important to keep it level and at
    the right height. Your boat isn't going to be going 60mph, so it
    is not as critical, but make sure that it is more than six inches from
    the motor or you "might" pick up ignition noise. And fasten the
    cable with tie downs or it might get caught on something.
    
    Have fun...tight lines, Ron

    Don, If your boat is alum. with rivets you may have a problem mounting
    the transducer flush with the hull, the rivets will cause air bubbles
    when moving at a fairly good clip. If and when you do try to mount
    it flush, You will have a small gap between the transducer and transom.
    This gap must be filled with one of those silicone sealers so you
    have a flat surface with no voids. Again this is because of the
    air bubbles that would be created by the gap.
    
    Rich
    

Hmmmm...

The bracket that I have is the kick-up type, and offset so the transducer may 
exetend below the transom.  In the manual there are 2 sets of installation 
directions, alum and glass.  My previous boat was alum also so I installed it
accordingly. I'm curious if they suggest mounting the unit flush with the 
bottom on glass boats.  My new transom has more rivets than my last boat, 
they are all along the seam, about 1/4" apart.  So, there will definitely be 
alot of turbulence back there - this may be why they suggest mounting it below
on aluminum transoms.  Makes sense, the idea is to have the miniimal amount of
turbulence/air passing by the transducer - on glass everything is nice and 
smooth so you can keep it flush, sealing the gap and all.  But with
the aluminum boats, there's no way of getting around all the mess that the 
rivets will be sending back - so therefore you have to go lower....
                                
If anyone else has a comment, let's hear it...		Don Mac

    I am currently in the market for a new Trolling motor. I'v been
    looking at a unit with a built in Maximizer. I have heard that
    the Maximizer can fry the sending unit on LCR's And Chart Recorders.
    Any truth to this???
    
    Rich Neal

    I called Lowrance and found out that there is some type of High
    Frequency signal in Maximizers that can damage the LCR or Chart 
    Recorder. I then asked "what do you mean it can, will it or wont 
    it?" The person then said "some people have gotten around it by 
    using differant batteries". I then asked " Oh so if I use a differant
    battery i'll be ok?" The person then said " Well no but that may
    be better". Well that was enough for me, I figure that it must be
    some type of taboo and no one knows for sure. I think I will just
    play it safe and stay away from the Maximizer's. :-(

    When I got my x-5 and x-16 from lowrance it came with a one page
    letter.  This letter contained a warning and some advice about using
    the maxinizer.  Damage to a unit becasue of the use of a maximizer
    may invalidate you lowrance warrenty.  
    
    The distance from the randucer and trolling motor has something
    to do with the eletronic field which will  do the damage to the
    lowrance unit.
    
    Bob
    

    
    For those of you who may have been interested in 'real fish SONAR';
    I'm the owner of an INTERPHASE 2000 fish sonar unit, and have the
    following to report:
    
    Fishing assistance performance is excellent; with a 5x5" amber screen
    which clearly shows a wide-scan image of the area directly behind
    the boat.  Fish/debris are clearly distinguishable, and bottom contours
    are very easily observed.
    
    The unit draws 500 watts, has multiple alarms, ranges, etc., and
    cost me $350 at Zyla's in Merrimack N.H.
    
    All in all, it's an excellent unit with only one major HACK.....it's
    screen brightness is so low you need to use a screen darkening 'tube'
    array (I fabbed one from cardboard) in direct sunlight.
    
    I'd say it's a ton better than most <$500.00 LCD units I've seen!
    
    Bye the way....just cause you can SEE em, don't mean they'll bite
                   any better for you (old indian saying?) but we keep
                   trying don't we?
    

	Well, since the Christmas weather is here, I guess it's
	time to start thinking about goodies for the new belly-boat.
	In line with this thinking, here goes.

	My first question has to do with current draw from a 12
	volt battery.  If a unit has a peak power of 50 watts,
	what is the current draw from the 12 volt source?  (If you
	haven't figured it out yet, I am looking for a way to put an 
	lcd unit on my belly-boat and am trying to figure out what
	type of battery I could use.)  If this information is not
	given in someone's owners manual, just give me some idea
	of the size of fuse used in the power line.  This will give
	me enough info to figure out the average power consumption.
	(I am thinking about using a rechargeable gel-cell type
	motorcycle battery.  I don't mind fishing an area if I 
	know there are fish there.  What really bothers me is fishing
	all day and not knowing whether any fish are even within
	5 miles of where I'm fishing.

	What size electric trolling motor would anyone recommend
	for a 4 man rubber raft?  When I go with both boys, it is 
	sometimes a pain because I tow the younger boy in a 2 man
	(number of passengers you can get into a raft is question-
	able) raft.  If I could put the trolling motor on the 4 man
	raft, I would fish in it with him and tow my older boy in his
	belly-boat.

	Oh, well, so much for the ramblings.  Back to that dirty
	four letter word "WORK"!
    

    
Good luck, its not hard to rig up!!!     
    
  Dont know about the battery draw, One could just use a couple lantern
batteries, as most portables do, or go fancy with a rechargable
(Motorcycle battery) Hummmm. I called the manufacturer (Lowrance) on
my unit and THEY couldnt tell me what the current draw would be...you
might want to try this avenue with your unit...good luck..:^).
    
  I messed around with mounting my Z6000-P on my tube (Caddis delux) last 
year, but never really used it for fishing.  I mounted the transducer
on the lower rear of the tube by means of some D rings I had the local
shoe repair person install. I put two strapped 6 volt lantern batteries in 
the back pocket with jury rigged wiring to the panel which I mounted on
the right side pocket where I had more D rings placed (Yes, my tube is
covered with D rings, handy things they are). This rig was secretly float
tested early one morning at a obscure dam in the belgrade lakes chain.
There seemed to be WAY too much wiring hanging around, transducer cables
and so forth which would need to be shortened, and I would suggest getting
matching connectors to use for the wiring which should be waterproofed etc,
as well as routing all wiring permanently inside the bag, but basically
the concept of the thing worked. Accurate readings were only possible
when drifting, when "under power" the pushers generated a lot of hash
as the propulion system and resultant swirls are within the cone of the 
transducer. This may work better if force fins are used as the transducer 
would be "Leading" rather than "following" the swirls generated by the fins.  
    
  Because my less than secure/watertight connections developed some
problems and the season was winding down I didnt pursue it any further and
the system was never fully implemented.....:^>.....next season?????
    
                                                  Tight Lines
    
                                                       Ed 

    I'm looking at an Interphase 20/20. Is that what you meant by a
    "2000"? If so, how deep do you use it? I generally fish Lake Ontario
    or the finger lakes of New York and need 300ft. How does it work
    at those depths? The price locally is $375.00 (+7% tax) The single
    unit gives depth, surface temp and trolling speed. I now have
    agraph/flasher combo unit that I'd like to replace. It always runs
    out of paper in rough water. (Then a car never runs out of gas when
    its parked!)
    
    Don

     Any inputs/comments on some of the new CRT jobs out?  I've been
     looking around for a new LCD, and have seen ads for several
     comparably priced CRT versions.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen
     one actually operating, and haven't found much literature on
     them.

     Eagle makes one, the VG-200, which sells discounted around $250.
     It would appear resolution is better than LCD's in this price range.

     Anybody have any experience with them?

     -gary

Just a quick comment on the new CRT units...

I saw the Interphase models for the first time last year and was really 
impressed with the resolution of the display.  However,  like a regular TV, 
when sunlight shines on the screen, it becomes extremely difficult ot view.

An LCR, on the otherhand, becomes EASIER to see when bright light shines on 
it.  If most of your fishing is done at night, then the CRT has the advantage 
over a backlit LCR, but given that most fishing is done in daylight, you may 
find the CRT models a little hard to see, even with the sun shade installed.

-Joe- (still lookin to upgrade my old Lowrance flasher)

    
    
    Paper or LCG is the only way to go!!!!!!
    
    					rb
    

    	The CRT models certainly offer a lot, especially the color ones.
    You can get a lot of information on a CRT that is difficult to show
    with an LCD display. Some of the drawbacks I believe are greater
    power consumption and less ability to withstand abuse. I don't have 
    any specs in front of me but I imagine that a CRT model could drain 
    a battery fairly quickly, even the LGG'S have a healthy power
    appetite. This may not be a problem if you are equipped with dual
    batteries or are willing to start the motor periodically. I use
    duals and switch over to one battery when I am stationary and using
    my electronics. This preserves one battery for starting even if
    the other gets run down.
        It may just be my perception but I think that the vacuum tube
    (valve for our British noters) and wiring of the CRT units render 
    them more succeptable to damage while being trailered or pounding
    around in the water. Of course if you are talking mostly lake travel 
    this wouldn't be much of a problem either. 
    	All in all I think that if your boat and type of fishing are
    compatible with it, a CRT unit should prove to be very satisfactory.
    I have an LCG but I would certainly consider a CRT if I was in the
    market for a new one. I hope we hear from more people with actual
    experiences with these units.
    
    Paul 	Who_is_knee_deep_in_snow_and_already_tired_of_ice_fishing

    The eagle unit is a buyout of another company. Lowrance does not
    currently build its crt units. I saw the high end eagle color machine
    in Worcester and it looked good. However...if I had my choice I
    would stick with a high end paper machine, I still find them the
    easyest to read. The major advantage to some crt units is they have
    surf temp and digital water depth for when you are cruising. The
    glare problem is a real problem from what I have heard, plan on
    having a hood, if you can mount it in cabin this is the best since
    it will keep it out of the elements and reduce the glare.
    
    Bruce

    I am somewhat surprized that a very useful feature of the Humingbird
    LCG's has not been discussed so far. The feature I'm talking about
    is the ability to "store" all the sounding data at a constant and
    maximum resolution and for the entire width of the display.
    
    Most sounders store only enough data to maintain the display and
    this is independant of the selection of vertical scale or zoom
    settings. My Humingbird always stores the entire "water column",
    in this case 120 ft., at a resolution of 3 inches. Now if I change
    scale or zoom-in on a target after I've passed over it, I'll get
    full detail. This is true even if I need to back-up the display
    to a portion which had already scrolled off of the screen.
    
    While this method requires a great deal more image memory, it really
    is a great feature. Now if I could find a good eight level amber
    CRT unit with range to 400-600 ft. and the full resolution storage
    of the Humingbird I'd buy it in a second.
    
    Jerry
    

   FYI, I have a Hummingbird 1000. Mounted the transducer to the floor
    of my fiberglass boat, under the middle seat. I used standard five
    minute epoxy. It worked fine. During the late summer turned it on
    one evening and had there is no bottom on the screen. Just the sync
    line and sensitivity acroos the top. Figured the cable got nicked and 
    figured I would buy a new transducer for this year. I read a few replys
    earlier in this note that mentioned the possible problem if a maximizer
    is used. My 3HP MinnKota has a maximizer. Anybody know for sure
    if the maximizer causes problems and if so what type of problems
    are they. I would hate to buy a transducer and find out the unit
    is defective. Would rather spend the money on a few other things
    for the tackle box.
    
    				Ed
    
    

    Has anyone had problems with engine noise, particularly from an
    I/O, showing up on a graph or flasher? How did you fix it? I have
    a Mercruser 120 that gives me grief with noise. I have shielded
    power cables, direct line from the battery, cabeling in the opposite
    side of the boat from all other electronics, etc. Still get noise
    that increases as a function of engine RPM. Shut the engine off
    and I can get full gain and see pebbles on the bottom at 300 ft!
    Any ideas?
    
    Don

Ideas??

Raise the sails, maybe??



(sorry...couldn't resist)

    Have you tried using a seperate battery? If not give it a shot.
    How about resistor plugs? Add a condenser to the coil? Just thinking
    about how you kill noise on a car radio. 
    
    Rich

    I have a merc 230 i/o and my paper machine becomes a mess as I increase
    speed. At <10 knots the picture is clean then as I increase speed
    the clutter gets real bad until it shows all black. I always attributed
    this to bubles and water tubulence. A good experiment would be to
    increase the RPM's while in nuetral and that would tell you if its
    Noise or tubulence causing your problem (I will try this on my own
    boat as well).
    
    Bruce

One method of determining the source of the noise is to place an AM 
portable radio next to the engine.  Then tune the radio between stations.
Listen for interference on the radio as you increase/decrease engine speed.
If the noise is a grating static-type noise, the source is most likely to be 
ignition (i.e. plugs, wires, distributor, etc.)  Also, at low RPM's, you can 
almost hear each plug firing on the radio. 

If the noise is a high-pitched whine, then it's most likely alternator
or generator noise.  

You might also try putting an RF choke in-line with the positive lead to the 
LCR or graph.  Most any electronics store carries a number of noise 
supressors designed to minimize or eliminate interference from each of the 
above sources.

Good luck!

Joe 

    	Also, put one of the chokes in the power return lead.  Ground
    can often be as noisy as the power lead.  An often overlooked problem.
    You usually don't have ground problems in a car because the whole
    body is a conductor.  In a Fiberglas boat, ground can often be
    a source of problems due to noise being returned to the battery.
    	If you still have the problem and determine that it is associated
    with engine noise, check the distributor cap and rotor as well as
    check the resistance of all spark plug wires.  Also, make sure that
    the engine has a GOOD ground lead back to the battery.  If you have
    a point type ignition, make sure the condenser is NEW or replace
    it.  (above are just a few good P.M. steps for any engine.)  These
    minor things will usually lower ignition noise.  If the problem
    is alternator whine or generator noise, you are probably looking
    at repairs soon anyway.  Just make sure that the ground to the engine
    from the battery is GOOD before you start trying to add power
    conditioning items.  Also, make sure that the battery terminals
    are not glazed or corroded.  Can cause noise due to bad connections.
    Clean battery terminals and connections and check grounds before
    you put a lot of money into the problem.

    Regarding the LCD versus CRT (video).
    
    I had the opportunity to go fishing for striped bass with a guide
    (Lake Texoma, on the Texas/Oklahoma border).  They used video
    fishfinders (and some paper) exclusively -- the extra resolution
    was required to locate fish holding at 3"-4" off of the bottom.
    If you have the display shaded, it is easy to read, even in sunlight.
    
    I had the opportunity to look at LCT and video side by side.  No
    contest -- the video unit has FAR greater resolution.
    
    The video units are  probably considerably more delicate than LCD's,
    and seem to draw more power, but that extra resolution makes up
    for a lot!
    
    I'm planning on getting a finder this year, and it will probably
    be video.
    
    Re: -1
    
    Be careful with finders and Maximiser's -- it seems that the current
    chopping that the Maximiser works on feeds back into finders (LCD
    only?) and makes them unuseable.  A motorcycle battery should provide
    several hours of life for a finder.
    
    Regards,
    Russ Doty

I don't think there's any disagreement over CRT's having better resolution.
My only concern is screen glare.  Even with a sun shade installed, if I'm 
standing up on the forward deck, the unit must be angled up for me to see.  
If the sun is behind me then it will shine right on the screen, sun shade or 
no sun shade!  And although there's no problem seeing it at night, most of my 
nighttime fishing is done in shallow water (10' or less) which doesn't 
require the use of an LCR/CRT/flasher unit.  I guess I'm still not convinced 
yet that a CRT is worth the extra bucks.  I'd like to see one in action on a 
bright sunny day first. 

I do agree, however, that a CRT is much more susceptable to damage 
from bouncing around, especially while trailering.  Also, most of the CRT 
units I've seen are not completely sealed from moisture.  The Interphase 
units have thumb-wheel controls on the bottom of the unit to control 
intensity and contrast, and those are not sealed.  The new Eagle CRT units, 
however, are using the sealed membrane method, even for varying intensity, 
and appear to be much more water resistant.  Eagle doesn't make them, 
they're a buy out from Japan.  I suspect they're the same basic unit as the 
Interphase but with different housings.

BTW, Interphase has a new, lower-price CRT unit called the "Sportsman" 
model.  If I remember right, it's priced around $250-275.

HSJ

    well i finaly broke down and bought a eagle z5000 last night at
    k-mart for only $179. i was wondering will this unit run off the
    same battery as my mini-kota does or do i have to get another battery
    the other question i have is where is the best place to mount it
    on a 12ft aluminum v bottom i sit in the back of the boat at all
    times.

    Alright Ray, nice move!  
    
    As you know, I have an aluminum V also.  Shooting thru the hull
    doesn't work well on aluminum because of the vibrations at high
    speed.  So, you should probably mount it off the transom.  Because
    of the aluminum lip at the bottom of my transom, I mounted a block
    of wood to the transom, and then mounted the transducer to block
    - this also gave me a little room for trail and error, it's alot
    safer screwing a couple more holes in the wood than it is to drill
    more holes thru the transom.  If you'll be coming to the meeting
    on Saturday, you could check out how I mounted mine.
    
    Oh yea, no problem running off the same battery -- your Minn Kota
    doesn't have a maxmizer, does it??        Don

    I see a lot of people have been talking about the Interphase 20/20.
     The price of this unit has dropped a good bit in the past 6 months.
     The unit can be purchased just a few cents under 300 dollars at
    Consumers marine electronics.  You may have to haggle with the guy
    a bit but that is what I paid for my 20/20.  I think Consumer Marine
    Electronics is in Neptune NJ.  If anyone is interested I will get
    the phone number.  I have yet to try my unit out, as it was let
    to me by Santy Clause.  But in a month or so the unit will be bouncing
    it's signals off the floor of the Atlantic Ocean. I will be happy
    to provide a testimony for and interested parties.  I am also worried
    about the sun shining into my unit and rendering the unit useless,
    but a bit of creativity will probably pay off here. 
    				Good Luck All!   Vince Caruso

    I saw a new Interphase unit the other day (cant remember the model
    name) that has all the features of the 20/20 except boat speed,
    is much smaller, looks waterproof and sells for $249.00. Even a
    runabout with limited dash space shpuld be able to manage a good
    mounting scheme up close to the operator!!!
    

    
    To those in the market for and Eagle fish finder,
    
    Gander Mountian has the Z6100 on sale with a 20 degree transducer.
    
    The cost including shipping and handling was $181.
    
    If you need a number and or info on the feature to this unit just
    drop me a line (no hooks)
    
    barry

===============================================================================
Note 405.2                        Fish Finder?                            2 of 6
AIMHI::TOMAS "Joe"                                   25 lines   9-JUL-1987 13:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've used both flashers and LCRs and, without a doubt, an LCR unit
    provides greater detail to bottom structure than a flasher.  The
    major advantage to an LCR, even the inexpensive ones with low pixel
    resolution, is that they "paint" you a picture of the bottom structure,
    thus making it easier to determine what lies below, i.e., stumps,
    rocks, brush, dropoffs, etc (an occasionally, fish!).  The flasher,
    however, requires that you watch it more frequently plus it takes
    time and experience to be able to determine what, exactly, the darn
    thing is trying to tell you.
    
    Most instruction books for a flasher give you examples of what the
    display looks like with different types of bottom structure.  Believe
    me, it can get confusing.  The LCR, on the other hand, is pretty
    self-explanatory.
    
    Just remember one thing, regardless of which unit you buy...don't
    plan to use it to locate fish (except for deep water trout & salmon),
    use it to locate structure types that should hold fish.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    -HoleShot Joe-
    
    BTW...there are several other notes in this file that have covered
    this topic in detail.

Just a quick question...

I am thinking of mounting my new Hummingbird LCR 4000 up on the bow of my
boat next to my elec. motor.  I know I won't be able to see it very well
from the stern when I'm under way, so I was thinking of using my old
Lowrance flasher as well from the stern.  Is there a problem with having
BOTH units on at the same time?  I don't know what frequency the flasher
operates at, but I would suspect that they would each interfere with the
other if both are at the same or similar frequencies. 

Thanks...

HSJ

BTW...the LCR 4000 was my prize for 1st place in the NH Open.  Just what I 
always wanted.  And this time....I REALLY WON IT!!

    From what I have seen you will have a problem with noise. When
    trolling for trout I have noticed LOTS of noise on the recorder when
    another boat passes that also is using sonar. Nice prize! I believe
    they make a switch so that you can switch from unit to the other. 
    
    Rich

Rich,

I know that they make switches to switch between 2 LCR's and one transducer 
or 2 transducers and one LCR, but my problem is that I have different brand 
units (Hummingbird LCR and Lowrance flasher).  I suppose that as long as 
both units operate on the same frequency that it might be possible to get 
away with one transducer.  I would have to jury-rig a different connector 
or adapter for the flasher.  

If, by chance, both units operate at the same frequency, but have different 
cone angles for the transducers (ex  16 degrees vs 20), will that affect the 
operation of accuracy of the unit?  Any electronics folks got an answer to 
that one?

Thanks,

Joe

    Opps, I missed that they were two differant brands. I have lowrances
    phone # here, try giving them a call to customer service.
    
    (918)437-6881
    
    BTW Lowrance/Eagle do have a narrow angle transducer available.
    
    Rich

    re .72
    
    My guess is that they will definitely interfer with one another.
    Does your manual say anything about suppression and discrimination.
    These are use to eliminate unwanted noise from the boat's engine
    or running two sonar units at the same time.
    
    Mike_L

I'll check my manuals this weekend.  I do know that the Hummingbird transducer
is a 16 degree cone whereas most of the Lowrance units use a 20 degree cone.
I also know the Hummingbird frequency is 200KHz, but I'm not sure about the
Lowrance (I seem to recall 192KHz).  

Questions:

1.  If I were to use just one transducer for both units, would the difference
    in cone angles only affect the area of the bottom being "viewed"?

2.  If I were to use just one transducer for both units, would the difference
    in unit frequencies have an effect on the reading.  Are the transducers
    capable of handling a fairly broad bandwidth or are they narrow-band
    transducers?

3.  If I were to use BOTH transducers, and assuming that the units operated
    at 200KHz and 192Khz, is that a wide enough frequency range such that
    neither would interfere with the other?


Thanks for Lowrance's phone number.  I'll give them a call later.  Maybe 
they can answer some of these questions.

Joe

Joe,
	I've got an Eagle Flasher on my bow with its transducer mounted on the 
trolling motor, and an Eagle Z6000 mounted on my console with its transducer 
glued to the inside of my hull.  I'm not sure if your question was related to 
trying to run both units off the same transducer or not.  I suspect the 
connectors for the transducers are not the same between the Humminbird and
the Lowrance, therefore you need two tranducers anyway.

	I've had no difficulty I'm aware of.  Bear in mind that my transducers
are about 16 ft apart and I'm usually fishing in 12 ft of water or less.

	I chose this particular arrangement because I use the LCR to find a
particular place in the lake (read 'structure') and the memory of the LCR is
a big advantage.  Once I'm in the vicinity of the structure and have the
electric down, I'm more interested in my current depth and fishing than in
locating someplace special.  For this the flasher works fine.  I do not shut
down the LCR when I get MinnKota wet, but I do shut off the flasher when the
trolling motor is out of the water.  I tried it the other way, but found I had
difficulty reading the LCR mounted on the deck while I was standing (not a
problem with the flasher) and while driving around at the console searching for
this channel or that log etc, I had to pay too much attention to the flasher
and not enough to my driving (not a problem with the LCR). 

			Good luck Joe,

					Al

    From what I've seen the flasher up front and LCR at the drivers seat 
    seem to be the more popular setup.  Makes sense to me.  You can use
    the more detailed LCR while `driving' to look around, find structure, 
    dropoffs, or possibly fish, etc...  And you use the flasher while
    up on the deck fishing, to keep track of the depth your fishing...
    
    But, to each his own, I'm sure there's plenty of people who'd prefer
    ot the other way around......... 
                                    
    Don Mac  

    I obviously hadn't read Al's reply when I replied, I could have
    just said, "Yea, do it like Al"

    These devices are based on timing i.e. sending out and timing time
    to return wich translates into distance traveled.
    
    Since unit A would not be syncro timed with the unit B and then
    would be confused if too close together.
    
    For RADAR installations one unit is master and the other is slaved
    to the master.

================================================================================
Note 745.0                   Interphase info needed                   No replies
CASV02::MCNULTY                                       8 lines  27-MAY-1988 08:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would like to know if anyone out there is familiar with the 
    Interphase 20/20? I (we) just purchased one at Zyla's and
    I was hoping we could get some info on this unit, good and bad
    points appreciated (hopefully not many bad). Mounting hints,
    transducer location, etc. Thank you in advance.
    
    
                                                       Mike McNulty

    I fished "Stumpfield" in Hopkinton,NH both on saturday and monday
    and went directly into the back of the stumps where they are really
    THICK. Somewhere I must have bumped my transducer. My guess is the
    wind gets you going and before you recover/realize- BUMP. The only
    problem is the LCR has a speed indicator. And
    the transducer a little paddle wheel kind of thing. (Well it used
    to...) Anyway - its a Ray Jeffereson 500 and my book doesnt show
    a replacement part. (Doesnt even show it in any of the diagrams!!)
    Besides going back to the dealer for $$$ who carries spares for
    that kind of thing??
    The LCR still works. and it still shows water temp.
    
    Suggestions???     (Not hardly as bad as the Worms - BUMP)

    How about salt?  The day after fishing the St. Johns in Florida,
    near the mouth, I noticed the screen of my LCR was stained - and
    is still stained...
    donmac

    re:.83
    
    Too bad, Bob.  Deep Woods Off ruined my watch crystal last summer.
    Maybe there's a safer solution.  I hate to go out at night without
    some repellent.
    
    Steve

    	I don't have a LCD but I was thinking that maybe you could put
    Saran (sp?) wrap on the screen. Then you could just peel it of and put
    some new stuff on once in a while. There is also some spray on stuff
    used to seal drafty windows that also peels off. Both should protect
    the screen and be 100% tranparent.
    
    	RAYJ

    I have only *heard* this, but, supposedly, Avon Skin-So-Soft works
    great as an insect repellent. Just think, no bugs, no ruined watches
    or fish-finders, and... soft hands!!
    
    Put it in another container, though. I wouldn't be caught dead carrying
    that silly-looking bottle around...
    
    Ed

    

    Yes, sports fans, Avon skin so soft works pretty well. I'd call
    it something else, but I don't want to get on Don Mac's bad side
    so soon. We used some while playing volleyball next to what must have
    been the eastern united states mosquito breeding grounds, and it
    kept the little buggers away.
    
     I guess I'm lucky that I took off my watch before I sprayed myself
    with deep woods off last tuesday. I'd be pretty P.O. if I ruined
    the crystal.
    
     The Doctah

.86  .88

Pennyroyal oil works well as an insect repellent. Available from any herb
or healthfood store.

Won't make your skin so soft tho ;')

Jay

I was out last night on Hopkinton Lake (aka Stumpfield) in NH and there
were bazillions of a little white fly around.  They don't bite...and 
therefore insect repellent doesn't work as DET-type repellents are only
for "biting, chewing and gnawing" type insects.  These flies are truely
bothersome, and within minutes you get totally covered by them.  They
really make your skin crawl (literally!).  

I wonder if this Skin-so-soft will help?  BTW...I've never seen these
flies anywhere but on this pond.  DonMac and others can attest to that, 
I'm sure.

hsj

    Hey, I tryed dat Pennzoil de other nite an it wurks pretty good.
    Kept dem muskeeters off, dem ticks off, dem chiggers off, an dem
    horsfiles off, but my wife wudnt let me come in de house!!!
    
    So, me I jes staid an did som nite fishin. Caught som big ones,
    too!!
    
    Coonass

    re .88
    
    I have heard the same story about the Avon Skin-So-Soft. If you
    slow-mo the movie JAWS in the scene where Quint is at the blackboard,
    you will notice a bttle of this stuff sticking out of his back pocket.

    At the recommedation (?) of this file, I bought some skin-so-soft
    on Saturday.  I talked to one person who sprays it around the entrance
    to their camper and swears they never have a mosquito in the camper.
    I used it on our dog and you could see the fleas jumping off.  She
    has not had a flea problem since Saturday.  Also used it on the
    lake Sat. nite and was not bothered by bugs at all.
    
    
    We even caught a couple of 2lber's and a huge chain pickerel.

       I hear you should mix it half-and-half with water.
                                                      Denny

    
    Yes skin-so-soft is great stuff. We live by some wet lands and have
    many many bitting insects. 
    
    We cover the kids as well as the dog. It's the only thing that really
    seems to work well. Also if your not into spreading harmfull chemicals
    all over ya then Avon's stuff has another plus.
    Re:-1 , I've heard of mixing half and half but have not tried it
    yet. It's not costly anyways.
    
    barry

    My wife is a "ding Dong" oops, Avon rep. 
    
    They publish a complete page of uses for SSS, I have it on line
    if any one wants it. (send mail to get a copy) 
    
    I use it as a bug repelant. They even sell it now in nice little
    pump spray bottles.
    
    David.
    
                                                  

I heard an interesting rumor... Lowrance has filed Chapter 11!

ANy heard this?

-HSJ-

    
    
    O.K.  Here goes.  I have my hand on the phone right now and I
    gonna call BASS pro shops and order an EAGLE Z7200 LCR for ~ $234.00
    I have looked at many (if not most) LCRs on the market and personally
    think that the 7200 for the money is the best buy.  It comes with
    a transom mount 20 degree cone transducer.  The graphic seem to
    be superior to all other graphs in that price range (the most
    impressive LCRs I've seen are the Bottom line series, but they
    are serious $$$$).
    
    So being the novice that I am when it comes to LCRs (along with
    many other things )  I'm diplaying this note to get someone to
    talk me into/out of buying this particular unit.  I realize that
    LCRs are subject to personal opinions, but I'm definitely into
    listening to them.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Gus
    
    (Actually, I'm willing to bet that BPS will NOT have this particular
     unit in stock, since no one else seems to)
    
    
    

    I ordered the 7200 for one simple reason -- resolution.  The resolution
    was "comparable" to the video units for much less.
    
    I got it on the boat a few weeks ago, and have used it twice.
    Resolution is good and the display is crisp and readable.  Easy
    to understand (in automatic mode -- it has about 17 pages of menues
    for setting it.  So far, I just turn it on and let it run.)
    
    This is my first finder, so I can't comare it to anything else,
    but I'm happy with it.  (And have already learned several things
    about my usual lake.)
    
    My only regret is that it doesn't support optional speed and
    temperature sensors.  However, for twice the resolution, it still
    seems like the way to go.
    
    Regards,
    Russ

      I'm going thru the exact same situation. Trying to decide on which
    fish finder to buy. I really wanted the trolling speed indicator and
    surface temp gauge capability, but you have to sacrifice resolution
    to get it (and keep it reasonable $$$). I spoke to a local dealer
    (Datillio's for those BTO'ers) and found out pretty much what I sus-
    pected. There are Eagle finders that have the speed and temp gauges
    for the $180-$220 range, but they have less than 80 pixels vertically.
    This is not real good for "spotting" fish. If you get into the high-
    er resolution machines (i.s. Z7200 for $234), which have 192 pixels
    vertically, you can see the fish, but you don't get the speed on temp
    gauges, even as an add-on. Of course you could get into the high $$$
    machines and get the resolution and gauges, but I can't spend that
    kind of money ($400+).
    
      I think I will be going with the $234 on the Z7200. At least I will
    be able to spot the fish. Does anybody know where you can get just the
    speed indicator gauge (not part of a fish finder, just a separate in-
    strument)??? Maybe next year I will purchase one of those. I would like
    it accurate to 1/10 of a mph. I haven't seen any around in any mail-
    order magazines (cabela's or bass pro).
    
    -Ron-

    I bought a Z7000 2 years ago and it had a temp probe with it,
    and a connection for a speed sensor. I picked up the eagle
    speed sensor and it works great. The unit logs the number of
    miles you've traveled and gives the speed readout down to tenths
    of a mph (or knots or km depending on how you set it). It can't
    be beat for setting your trolling speed. I'm surprised they
    discontinued these features on the Z7200. Last year the unit quit
    sensing temp (turned out to be the sensor was bad), and I returned
    it to eagle for repair and they informed me that they would update
    the software in it to match their latest model for free, and that
    for an extra 36$ they would change the display to match the latest
    model...It was a blue screen that showed up better in the sun. I
    had the unit back in less than a week. I'm not sure how many pixels
    are in the display, but it marks fish real well, even on the bottom.
    Maybe I got the best of both worlds...
    
    The only time things are difficult are when you want to chart the
    bottom at depths of 150 ft or so as you have to turn the sensitivity
    way up, and that causes noise to appear, and you start loosing
    confidence as to a mark being a fish, or a glitch...the other problem
    is at high speed the unit tends to loose track of the depth if the
    bottom structure changes rapidly. Your adrenalin can get right up
    there when your doing 50mph and all of a sudden the display starts
    flasing on and off...you don't know if the bottom is coming up fast,
    or dropping off fast, so you grab the throttle fast and pull it
    back, usually pissing off everyone else in the boat as they end
    up wearing drinks, sandwiches or whatever!
    
    Marty

    
    I HAVE A HUMMINGBIRD 4ID MOUNTED ON BASSTRACKER V-16 SPECIAL.
    IT HAS A AUDIBLE ALARM WHICH CAN BE SET FOR DEPTH WARNING,
    A AUDIBLE ALARM ON APPROACHING AND LOCATING FISH OF WHICH
    HAS A SENSITIVITY CONTROL SO IT WILL ONLY ALERT YOU TO THE
    LARGER FISH AND NOT BE TRIGGERED BY SMALL BAIT FISH.
    THE LCR HAS THE STANDARD SIZE SCREEN,ALTHOUGH IT DIFFERS
    FROM THE REST BY IDENTIFYING STRUCTURE IN BLACK;ROCKS,TREES,ETC.
    WATER IS A GREY BACKGROUND AND THE FISH ARE EASILY RECOGNIZED IN
    RED THE LARGER FISH APPEAR AS RED WITH BLACK SPECKS INDICATING
    HOGS.
    THE LCR HAS AMONG ITS FEATURES ZOOM CONTROLS,RECALL TO REPEAT
    VIEW OF AREA JUST PASSED OVER,A LIGHT FOR EARLY SALMON AND TOGUE'S,
    FISHING AT DAWN OR AT NIGHT.
    I HAVE TO CONFESS THE LCR 4-ID DID NOT COME WITH MY TRACKER BUT
    IT WAS A EQUIPMENT UPGRADE FROM THE 2000 MODEL WHICH COMES STANDARD
    PERSONALLY I THINK ITS GREAT ESPECIALLY HAVING THE FISH APPEARING
    IN RED THERE-BY ELIMINATING GUESS WORK AS IS THE CASE OF OTHER LCR'S..
    IT CAN BE ORDERED THRU BASS PRO SHOPS OR CABELLO'S ABOUT THE SAME
    MONEY ITS ABOUT $279. OR $379. I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY BUT IT
    HAS PUT ME ON FISH EVERY TIME AND I HAVE HAD IT THREE YEARS NOW
    WITH NO PROBLEMS!
    
    HOPE THIS HELP'S------------ TIGHT LINES
      
    REMEMBER A BAD FISHING IS STILL BETTER THAN A GOOD DAY WORKING !
    Z                                                                     
    
    
    

    ALL RIGHT WHAT'S THE LATEST IN SONAR? THERE HAVEN'T BEEN A  LOT
    OF NOTES IN THIS TOPIC LATLEY SO I THOUGHT I WOULD KICK IT OFF AGAIN
    SINCE I WILL BE SPENDING SOME MONEY SOON. 
    
    AT THE FISHING SHOW THIS WEEKEND, I TALKED TO THE EAGLE REP AND
    THE HUMMUNGBIRD REP AND AM NOW AS CONFUSED AS I EVER WAS. THESE
    TWO ORGANIZAITONS SEEM TO HAVE THE REASONABLY PRICED STUFF. 
    
    ANY INPUTS ON THE MODELS THAT YOU HAVE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
    
    ONE OTHER QUESTION: THE HUMMUNGBIRD HAS A 455 KHZ VS THE 192 KHZ
    THAT EAGLE PROFESSES TO BE BEST. HWAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES AND
    DISADVANTAGES OF A HIGHER FREQUENCYU UNIT.
    
    
    THANKS FOR ANY INPUT.  

    re .105>
    	The lower frequency transducers penetrate deeper.

    I don't know about fresh water applications, but most of the folks I
    talk to in the deep, salt water spots I fish tend to be very happy
    with Humminbird Equipment and the Eagle customers have been less
    satisfied in the past.
    
    I think that .105 is speaking about the sampling rate of Humminbird 
    vs. Eagle in deep water (I could be wrong) but I believe that
    Humminbird has the best sampling rate (fast) at any depth, hence
    greater resolution.
    
    Eagles tend to be more price competitive, but IMHO, I don't think that
    you can beat a Humminbird.  I fish in 100-300', so if I were fishing
    in shallower water, I might think otherwise.
    
    If you can't tell, I have a Humminbird and love it.  I also like the
    fact that Humminbird backs up their products with 24 hour turnaround
    service and Federal Express transportation.  With the two units I've
    owned, I've never had the opportunity to test this out.  Come to think
    of it, I don't have any friends that have needed repairs and I'd say
    that between us.....there has been some abuse of their products ;-).
    
    I went to the two sportsmens' shows in ourarea this weekend and I will
    say that I am amazed at the functionality competitiveness between the
    major manufacturers on a year to year basis.  My current Humminbird is
    two years old and it is as outdated as an 11/780 compared to the new
    Humminbird products.  There are other productsd out there that look
    pretty good like Impulse, but I have no information base from which
    to base a recommendation.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    /brett
    
      

    If my physics serve me correctly, the higher frequency will give better
    resolution than the lower one, regardless of the sampling rate. 
    Remember the formula  Freq = 1/lambda.  A higher frequency will have a
    smaller wavelength which will detect smaller objects or better detail
    on larger ones.
    
    Tim
    
    p.s.  I know this to be true of radar detectors, which operate in the
    GHz range, giving wavelengths of 1/1000s inches!
    

I've had my Hummingbird LCR 4000 for a couple of years now and it has always 
performed well.  I did send it back to the factory under warranty as 
condensation was forming on the display.  I got it back within a couple of 
days and they even threw in a cover.  Unfortunately, the same problem has 
occurred again in only one season's use.  Despite this problem, I'm still 
satisfied with the unit although I think I'm ready for something better.

I've been looking at the new Eagle Ultra which has better resolution and 
greyline capabilities.  I was out with a friend last year who owns the Eagle 
Z-9000 and it was super!  The Ultra offers a lot of the same features and 
the same resolution but on a smaller screen.

Since I've started fishing deeper waters (20-40') for smallies, I think the
greyline capabilities will help me to differentiate the composition of the
bottom, i.e. hard vs soft.  My Hummingbird can show structure, but it's
difficult to know whether I'm looking at weeds or rocks...both look very
similar.  I believe that the greyline feature can help to distinguish
between the two once you learn how to read it. 


Of course...there's always a paper chart recorder too!  A few more $$$, 
though!  Decisions....decisions....

-HSJ-

 Frequency, etc

 When you buy a sonar unit, you must be aware of the type of fishing you are
going to be doing. If you are planning on fishing very deep water, say, 300
feet and more, you will want to consider very seriously a unit in the 50KHz
range. When a manufacturer speaks of frequency, they are referring to the
transducer, that piece that is placed in the water through which you send
and receive the signals.

 If you fish shallow to moderately deep water, you will find that a higher
frequency transducer, as Tim stated, will give you better resolution _at the
expense of depth penetration_.

 Another factor to consider is the angle of the "cone." The cone refers to the 
volume of water under the boat which is in the transducer's field of reception.
If you look at the transducer as a point from which the sound emanates, the
water which you can "see" via the transducer is shaped like an upside down
ice-cream cone. The diameter of the cone at any depth is a function of the
cone angle.

 Deepwater units have narrower cones. Shallow water units have wider cones.
Some units have a transducer frequency that is fairly high but has a narrow
enough cone angle to send sufficient energy to increase penetration (depth 
range).

 Commercial boats often have a wide cone unit as well as a narrow cone unit
on the same boat. When you move the boat so that you see fish on the wide cone
unit, you are in the right area. When you see them also on the narrow cone
unit, you are right over them.

 For those of us who can only afford a single unit, make sure the cone is not
too wide nor too narrow. A cone that is too wide (for the depth you normally
fish) will make you think you are "over fish" when in fact they are way off
to the side. A cone that is too narrow will cause you to miss fish only a
few feet off to the side.

 Take an hour or two and go to the library. Take some notes. Or borrow some 
back-issues of Saltwater Sportsman or SportFishing. Both of these magazines have
had good and informative articles on sonar in the past year or two.

 If you are going to be shelling out your hard-earned money, take an hour or two
to ensure your investment will be made wisely. You've already made the right
first step- asking.

 Good luck- happy fishing.

 The Doctah

    	I have to disagree slightly with the description in -.1.  The
    radiation pattern of a TYPICAL depth finder is more like a palm tree
    top on an ice cream cone.  There is a diffraction of the signal near
    the surface that causes lots of side lobes.  This gives the palm tree
    type top in shallow water.  If you are using a very low frequency
    (50kHz) transducer unit in shallow water, you will have to turn the
    sensitivity down to such a degree that the resolution will be almost
    totally lost to keep the diffration pattern from interfering with the
    signal you are trying to receive (DEPTH LESS THAN 5 FEET).  Now, with a
    high frequency unit, the directivity of the signal is such that the
    diffration at the transducer is neglible.  So, if you want good clear
    DEEP water use, go with 50 kHz.  If you are looking for things in 3
    feet of water, use 400 kHz.  
    	The wavelength difference at these frequencies is not the limiting
    factor.  The limiting factor for depth is the slower speed of sound in
    water than radio frequencies in air.  So, a higher repetition rate for
    the sonar unit (400 kHz) causes a MAXIMUM depth for measurement of
    approximately 200 feet before the transducer unit sends a second pulse
    prior to the return of the first pulse.  This gives a false receive
    signal.  A 50 kHz unit has a maximum depth of about 1500 feet.  The
    limiting factor again is the SPEED of the signal in the water, not the
    wavelength of the transmitted signal.  (I KNOW, PICKY, PICKY, PICKY!!!)
    :-)  :-)

Re .107>
Brett,
	I was surprised that the West Coast fishermen prefer Hummingbird 
for salt water applications, particularly the high frequency model. Lower 
frequency transducers penetrate the depths better ...i.e. even the 
Hummingbird deep water models use a lower frequency (200kHz). Eagle I 
believe uses 192kHz as standard. I've also seen some deep water fish 
finders (don't remember which manufacturer) which use a transducer 
frequency below 100kHz. 
	Power is another factor in depth penetration and I believe Eagle
surpasses Hummingbird in that regard also.
	As far as resolution goes I may be wrong but I would think that 
on an LCD unit the display would be the limiting factor, not the transducer 
frequency.Even if frequency was the gate increased resolution would be at 
the expense of depth penetration.
	Both brands advertise totally water proof packaging but Eagle also 
charges their unit with dry Nitrogen to avoid fogging.	
	My last point of disagreement is price. I have found that Eagle and
Hummingbird are similarly prices; actually I believe the Eagle models are 
slightly higher. This may be because the Hummingbirds are sold in chain 
department stores more than Eagle. 
	I don't to imply that Hummingbird is inferior, both brands are of
high quality and have excellent reputations but I always thought of the
Hummingbird line as targeting fresh water applications and Eagle being more 
dual purpose.
	As far as my own experience with my Eagle (6100?...I never pay 
attention to model numbers), I have had no cause to have it repaired in the
four years I've been using it. I have had complaints but mostly in shallow
water applications.
	I use an 8 degree transducer to enhance the depth penetration. I
frequently find myself cruising in 400' or better depths looking for 
bumps which rise up to about 200'. This is pretty difficult duty for a 
fish finder but the Eagle has done its job fairly well.
	Just a different viewpoint I guess.
Paul

 re: "palm tree effect"

 That's lesson 2. Thanks for giving it. :-) :-)

>So, a higher repetition rate for
>    the sonar unit (400 kHz) causes a MAXIMUM depth for measurement of
>    approximately 200 feet before the transducer unit sends a second pulse
>    prior to the return of the first pulse.

 What's to stop a manufacturer from slowing down the repetition rate of the
higher frequency transducers?

 I believe that one of the reasons that the higher frequency transducers 
utilize higher repetition rates is due to the fact that higher frequency signals
lose their energy faster, hence are limited with respect to the maximum
depth acheivable for a given return signal strength. Anyone want to whip out
an old physics book? :-)

>The
>    limiting factor again is the SPEED of the signal in the water, not the
>    wavelength of the transmitted signal.

 The speed of a 50KHz signal and a 400 KHz signal is the same. It seems to me
that if speed were the only factor, there would be no reason to use a 50KHz
transducer, because you could use a 400KHz transducer and match the repetition
rate to that of a 50KHz unit, thus obtaining identical depth penetration with
a higher resolution.

 The Doctah

    Well, there you have it.  It looks like Eagle and Humminbird have
    the biggest following and among them, it's personal favorites.
    
    I have a TCD 400 (?) I'm not real good at model numbers either.
    Plus they change the numbers so fast on reels and depth finders
    etc that they confuse the customers more than DEC.  (Anyone know how
    many model numbers shimano has introduced in the last 5 years????)
    Anyway, I thought mine was around 200 Khz.  I could be wrong.  I'd have
    to check.  It gives a picture of the bottom, but I have no indication
    as to composition from the picture......either that or all the bottom
    that I fish is the same (which is likely).  I'm always deeper than 100'. 
    Maybe in shallower depth, or mud bottom the bottom might look
    different.
    
    I always thought that Eagles were cheaper.  There goes that myth.
    
    It looks like the person that asked hasn't got any better idea whether
    Eagle or Humminbird is better.  Another way to look at it is that they
    are both good :-)
    
    Hey, what can I say?  I like Penn reels and downriggers, Humminbirds
    and American Trucks and outboards.  
    
    /brett
    
    P.S.  Here we have a facitlity called Costco, which I believe is
    similar to BJ Warehouse (???).  Usually, Costco gets a bunch of 
    depthsounders (usually Eagle or Humminbird from what I've seen)
    around this time of the year.  You might keep your eyes open if you're
    a member and are looking for one.  I didn't buy mine there, but I
    sure wish I had. ;-)

Re -1>
Brett,
	We agree on reels, downriggers, outboards and trucks. Actually
the reason I responded was that the original question concerning the 
units referred to the 455kHz model so I thought you were discussing that.
I'd guess that the difference between the 200kHz and 192kHz would be minimal.  
Paul

    	The reason for the greater depth with the 50 kHz vs. the 400 kHz
    rate is that the 400 kHz unit transmits 8 times the amount of pulses
    per period of the 50 kHz unit.  So, with the faster pulse rate, you can
    look only 1/8 as far before you get return interferance
    (intermodulation error) pulses.  You can change the time-out period
    between transmit pulses to increase the depth ability slightly. (Which
    is what your unit does to discriminate between depth ranges like 0-10,
    or 0-60 feet.) However, when you use too low a pulse repetition rate
    with higher frequency, the return signal power is much lower due to
    scatter effect of the signal in the water and doppler problems.  (The
    higher the frequency, the greater the doppler.)  Since a sonar is
    looking ONLY for TIME delta from transmitted signal to received signal,
    any doppler causes a reduction in received signal strength. 
    	As for having a dual frequency transducer, it would cost a MINIMUM
    of twice as much as a single frequency unit since the coil in the
    transducer is a TUNED coil to maximize its power transfer
    characteristics and get the best signal for the least energy.  So, to
    have a dual frequency transducer, you have to design NOT ONLY 2 coils
    into the transducer, BUT must also design the coupling characteristics
    of the coils to minimize interraction and signal loss.  The amount of
    design time would be greatly increased in this case.  In addition, you
    would have to have some type of switching circuitry involved.  It is
    not just a matter of "change the frequency inside the display unit". 
    

>However, when you use too low a pulse repetition rate
>    with higher frequency, the return signal power is much lower due to
>    scatter effect of the signal in the water and doppler problems.

 This is exactly what I've been saying. :-) Good, my faith in physics has
been restored. :-) 

>    	As for having a dual frequency transducer,

 I've heard of a few of those, but what I was talking about wrt commercial
boats was that they have a minimum of two complete and separate units, one
of each flavor.

 The Doctah

    I currently have a Z6000 and at the end of last season was just getting
    used to it (that means I got brave enough to take it out of manual
    mode).
    
    I am interested in the temperature/speed options. Based on the
    conversation a few replies back, I am not sure now which Eagle models
    have these options. I thought both the Z7000 and Z9000 series had them.
    
    Can someone point me a the current set of Eagle LCDs that support these
    features?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Guy

    There's an interesting article in one of the engineering rags (EDN)
    this month that mentions the new hummigbird dimension 3 unit. This
    is the nifty little unit (that we all want!) that shows a 3d image
    of the bottom, fish sizes and a host of other stuff....Well, in
    my normal skepticism I figured it was just more data processing.
    The size fish it displayed was still relative to the boat speed,
    length of time the fish is in the cone etc., and that the bottom
    picture was governed by the same factors, not an accurate picture
    proportionately to what was really down there.
    
    It seems they are detecting RF signals which indicate the presence
    of fish with a signetics FM-IF demodulator. The article wasn't to
    clear on how they are doing this. It means what you see is whats
    really there....
     
    Anyone else see this article ?
    
    Marty 

When I first saw the ads for the Hunningbird 3-D LCR, my first impression
was..."it's about time!"  Then, upon closer examination of the picture, it
was obvious the Hummingbird STILL has not done much to improve overall
pixel resolution.

Then I saw that Eagle was planning to introduce a similar LCR.  Judgeing 
from the photos I saw, the Eagle resolution was superior and I think 
they're being offered for a lower price.

In any event, it will be interesting to see how good they really are.  
Let's see what the vendors have to say when we hit the Centrum this year.

-HSJ-

Anyone have anything to say about the fish finders from Bottom Line?

	mark

    Has anyone seen the Eagle ad thrashing on the Hummingbird
    Dimension 3. They basically said it dont work as advertised.
    According to Eagle what it shows on the screen does not reflect
    what is on the bottom. They did a side by side comparison. 
    through a marked course with various objects put in place including
    a large bass that the Hummingbird missed 9 out of 10 times.

    Rich

    As .121 asked about Bottom line fish finders I was also wonder about
    there SIDEFINDER. Is this a new product this year?  Does anyone know
    anything about this unit?  I heard that they will retail for around
    $230.00 - $250.00.  What do others think about this side view versus
    the usual bottom view?  Could this be the best thing since sliced bread
    for fishing in the shallows?  Any comments?
    
    Russ

This is the year I plan on installing a fishfinder and have investigated 
the wide variety of units available.

My needs:

	1. Most of my fishing done in Nantucket Sound i.e. typical depths
		are less than 100 ft.
	2. Occasional 2-300 foot bottom fishing.
	3. Very infrequently I get the desire to try some big game action
		around the 100 fathom line.

I have pretty much settled on an LCD for two reasons unit size (depth) and 
an LCD's ability not to wash out.  My local marine electronic shop is 
strongly suggesting an amber crt unit (I think largely because they do not 
have a good lcd line!).

The Interphase line seems to have a couple of excellent models.  One 
operates at a 640' max depth with only one frequency available, while the 
other model operates at 1280' with both 50/200 hz capability.  Both have 
loran plotter capability.

Question...is the 1280 ft model worth the cost premium.  Should I infer 
that the ability to operate at 1280 ft will make for a better unit at 600?

Does anyone have any alternative suggestions to Interphase given my needs?

Thanks,

Carl

>I have pretty much settled on an LCD for two reasons unit size (depth) and 
>an LCD's ability not to wash out.  My local marine electronic shop is 
>strongly suggesting an amber crt unit (I think largely because they do not 
>have a good lcd line!).

 There is another strong reason to go with a CRT unit: resolution. LCD 
technology, while improved, has not yet acheived the same pixel density of
CRT units. This translates into less accurate pictures, as roundoff error
creeps into the equation. I personally would not choose an LCD for this reason,
except as a backup.

>Question...is the 1280 ft model worth the cost premium.  Should I infer 
>that the ability to operate at 1280 ft will make for a better unit at 600?

 Part of what you are paying for in the 1280 ft model is a more powerful
transducer, and part of it is the dual nature of the transducer. With a dual
frequency range, you have the ability to both find fish in a general area as
well as pinpoint fish under your boat. The difference is in the way that
the different frequencies are propagated through the water. One frequency
will have wider cone than the other, which allows you to see more of the bottom.
The other has a narrow cone with a higher definition within the cone- allowing
you to pintpoint fish once you've found the general area. It is a pretty nifty
feature. That alone can justify the expense to some anglers. I would pay the 
premium if it is not excessive to get the increased performance.

 Might I suggest that you stop by your local library and look through some
back issues of SPORTFISHING (Can't remember which issues offhand). They explain
comprehensively how to get the most out of your sonar units, and how they
work, etc. Excellent reading.

 the Doctah

Carl,
	I am not familiar with particular models since I'm not actively 
looking right now but I do have some opinions on the virtues of various 
features based on my own salt water experiences.
	I prefer the LCD models. The resolution is getting pretty good
and I feel they are better suited for me because of their small size,
physical robustness, low cost, and low power consumption. 
	These characteristics are important to me because I have a 22' walk 
around cuddy type boat and space for electronics is definitely scarce. I also
trailer the boat and go like a bat out of hell in the water so my electronics 
suffer a lot of physical abuse; I think the LCD's will hold up to this better
than the CRT's. Cost is self explanatory and power consumption is an issue 
for me since I frequently run a live well and occasionally RADAR. 
	As far as features go, I'd like all the bells and whistles. Dual 
freq transducer would be great for the wide range of depth you are dealing
with in the salt. As the Doctah said, the cone angle may also be different,
although I think that's independent of the freq. I use a narrow (8 deg.) cone 
angle and someday plan to hook up the standard 20 deg. version with a switch 
so I can get better shallow water performance.
	I have a separate LORAN, speedometer and surface water temp gauge
but would strongly consider the combinations available today. You can get all 
of the above for less than what I paid for the LORAN alone. I don't know if 
these combos act as well as the separate units but if they do I'd get them.
BTW - If the combos are available in CRT as well, then the space consideration 
would of course be less of a factor.
Good Luck With Your Purchase,
Paul

    I have a Ray Jefferson color crt fishfinder.  It came with the boat so
    its at least 3 years old and probably 5.  I leave it on all the time I
    am running the boat and as with Paul in the previous reply beat the
    Hell out of it running in the chop and pounding in the seas.
    
    I have not had any trouble with it so far.  It is mounted behind the
    windshield but still gets some spray from time to time.  I had trouble
    with glare off the screen but polorized GREY sunglass lenses eliminated 
    this problem.
    
    gordon
    
    problem

I appreciate the inputs.

The rationale regarding having both 50/200 hz transducers certainly make 
sense.  I also agree that LCD resolution has come along way...probably 
quite functional for my application.

I already have a loran and intend to hook up the two for plotting 
capability.  I currently have a Raytheon 570.  

An excellent unit for those who have no loran and are looking for a combo 
device is the Raytheon 730 which has all the features integrated.

Now to find a "deal" on the Interphase 1000DC!  

carl

    Sorry moderator if this is in the wrong place, But I thought I would
    start a new topic on Fish Finders.  
    
    I am going to buy a fish Finder this year and know just about nothing
    about them.  I would like some information and I'm sure there are
    people out there with the experence. 
    
    1.	What functions do I really need
    	What functions would be nice
    	What functions are useless
    
    2.	Brand name info
    		Apelco
    		Egale
    		Impulse
    		Hummingbird
    
    3.	Through haul Transducers (pros + cons if any)
    		Triducer????
    
    Any info would be appreciated
    
    Rick
    
    
    
    
    

Rick,

I suggest the first thing to do is determine what you want to use it for. Then
we can go from there.

ie, Bass fishing on inland lakes, Salmon and Trout trolling on Ontario, Etc.

????

Don

    I ANSWERED WITH THE WRONG COMMAND (WRITE INSTEAD OF REPLY) SO THE
    FOLLOWING RESPONSE WAS MENT FOR HERE.  
    
    SORRY STILL LEARNING
     
                    <<< Note 1572.0 by USRCV1::RECUPAROR >>>
                              -< Still learning >-

    Good question, I should have made that clear.  I've only been fishing
    actively for the past two years so please excuse any stupid questions
    or answers.
    
    Most of my fishing will be done in Onieda Lake which is a shallow lake
    (<60 feet) and most of the time I will be fishing for Walleye and
    Purch.  I do trailler my boat so I do get to the Finger Lakes and
    Ontario but since I don't have down riggers I will not be going in the
    deep water.  All-in-all I will be fishing for what ever I can catch so
    I would like some flexability if thats possible. 
    
    Rick
    

             <<< RANGER::$2$DUA31:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FISHING.NOTE;2 >>>
           -< The Fishing Notes - Home for wayward Terminal Anglers >-
================================================================================
Note 1571.0                Good fishing nearby Onieda                 No replies
WLDWST::GARRISON                                      7 lines  16-APR-1991 18:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You should check out Mad river in Camden. I lived there for a year 10
    years ago. The brown trout fishing is excellent. All I ever used was a 
    1/8 oz black roostertail. Start where the river crosses the road into
    town from Rome (I think its highway 20 but I'm not sure). There's fish
    both upstream and downstream to the junction with Fish Creek.
                                              Good luck,
                                                Scott