Conference wahoo::fishing

    RayJ:
    So far I have no experience with Penn Rods. I have looked them over,
    however, and was impressed. Seems they use all quality hardware
    (Fuji, Aftco, etc) and all are at least double wrapped, many are
    triple wrapped. I would guess that they are trying real hard to
    uphold their quality image...especially after talking to their reps
    about problems with the GR2XX series. It isn't often these sales
    types get embarassed :-).
    
    As to your other question of a rod suitable for boat and surf. 
    What you have seen in use on the head boats may look like an 8 foot
    surf stick, but look again.  There are probably significant
    differences. The most notable being the butt. The typical surf butt
    is just too long for use on a (party)boat. BTW, I have read up on
    these "cod specials" and, so far, they appear to be all custom rods.
    
    Bagel

    RayJ,
    
      Lets talk cod for a moment...The best "meat" sticks for cod are
    8 foot custom made jigging rods. These rods are light and stiff
    and made for jigging a 17 oz jig. This is what you will NEED if
    you want to party boat fish or private boat fish for cod in the
    10lb or better catagory. If you just intend to fish for small
    schrody type cod then a 7 foot convenional boat rod (30-50lb rating)
    will work, but you will have trouble with a big jig. I can toss a 17oz
    jig about 100ft with my rod and PENN 113H. These jigging rods
    are really for bottom fishing only, they are over kill for Blue's,
    flats etc. A good quality jigging stick will cost around $120, it
    cost me around $80 in components to build mine. If you are interested
    I could build one for you to your specs etc.
    
    For spinning tackle 7 foot on a boat is just right. Enough length
    to get a good cast but not to clumsy. I use spinning rods for blues
    and flats, you could also use a foot conventional rod like I described
    above. But I like to match my tackle to the species that I am fishing
    for.
    
    The PENN jig masters are good reels but are a little light for Cod,
    I would use them for flats. Any reel that is around 3:1 is fast
    for a salt water boat reel. Most of the Big Game reels are between
    2 and 3:1 ratio's.                
    
    Decide what you want to fish for and base your tackle on that. If
    can't be species specific you will have to make compromises.
    
    Bruce

    For my boat rods I use Dawia 50lb class with gimble butts,roller
    stripper guide and roller tip guide with 3 ceramic guides between
    these are 5ft rods and have Dawia 600H reels with 50lb test dacron
    on them. They function well for COD and Sharks I have yet to pul
    in a Tuna on them; But I will this summer!!!
    
    For off the surf or jetty I prefer a 10 ft medium action rod with
    3 metal guides and a Penn Senetor 4/0 reel with 30 lb dacron. This
    rod has a very long Butt section 2 ft. and is excellent for long
    casting of smaller 4oz to 10oz rigs.  I use it for live bait as
    well as lures (wood & Metal)
    
    Both types of rods are good for Bluefish,Cod,pollock ect but I would
    try to go with a balance between the two if I could only have one
    rod. Something about 8ft long with as short a butt as possible,ceramic
    guides (no more than 4) and a Penn Squidder reel or Dawia Sealine
    4/0 and 20 to 30 lb dacron with 50 lb mono leader for shock coupled
    with a Barrel swivel.
    
    This would be a good all around rig.  Most good rods are made from
    a LAMIGLASS ,EXCELON,or fenwick Blank. Be sure to check a handful
    of different rods to be sure that they bend naturlly in the same
    plane as the EYEs on the rod. To do this GENTLY!! rool the rod tip
    back and forth on the floor and watch the curve in the rod, Some
    are better than others but this is a personal preferance.
    
                                            Hope this helps 
                                                 Walt
    

    Walt's right on! Never take rod right from the rack without a close
    visual inspection and checking the natural bend of it. I was looking
    for a pair trolling rods last year and put the rods through the
    bending test. Out of ten or so rod in the rack I found three that
    would hold true when flexed. The others would twist badly to one
    side or the other. 
    
    The clerk was about to say something about my "treatment" of his
    merchandise, when I showed him the worst of the rods. He removed
    several from the rack.
    
    If you're paying big bucks, then check it out and don't be shy about
    it!
    
    Jerry
     

    Has anyone used a long line for COD or Flats?? I'm going to rig
    one up and would like any comments. ie; length depth floats ect....
    
    Whats a good bait? how long between checking the run.
    
    Some of the trot line catfishers might have a comment or two??
    
                                                       Walt
    

    Trot line bait??
    
    Only tree, bludbait, cat guts, or Ivory Soap...
    
    Coonass

    You might want to look into a Shakespeare rod. They make one
    specifically for jigging codfish. It's 8 feet long, very light and
    would go well with the new Penn 40GLS graphite 4/0 or a Newell 4/0
    equivalent. The Newell is hard to get, but very light. The 40GLS
    is also very light. The light rod and reel will help casting the
    heavy jig. I usually use 40 or 50 lb Dacron or 50+ mono for cod.
    The best jig fisherman I ever saw was using the Newell reel and
    a light custom rod and the lightest jig he could that would still
    get to the bottom. He cleaned up when everyone else was struggling.
    
    Hope this info helps.
    
    Art

    	Re:7
    		Sounds interesting. Do you have any "ballpark" idea
    of what the rod would cost ? I checked my most recent Bass-pro catalog
    and they have Power-Stiks which are made for Bass-pro by Shakespere.
    The only 8'er they list though is a surf rod rated for 10-25 lb.
    line.
    
    RAYJ

    I have seen the shakespear cod rod at hermans and surfland in the
    past, try calling them for a price.
    
    Bruce

    Ray High it me Bear.
    
    Have you checked out Zyla's They are supose to be be the biggest
    wholesaler of Shakesspear equipment this side of t he Mississippi.
    
    At any rate also consider. Brian once bought a a grafite ( sp )
    blank there and wraped his own rod.
    
    If you ever thought of wrapping your own rods I think the cod
    rod is a good one to start with because there is less fine work
    and all the eyes and wraps are pretty large.
    
    He bought that at Zyla's also.
    
    I'll send you mail off line with some personal information
    that is not applicable to the notes file.
    
    bear

    Building your own is a good idea. Usually it costs a little more
    than buying one, but you get exactly what you want. I'd suggest
    a graphite surf rod blank and then cut a section off the top and
    the butt to get exactly the action you want. Jigging rods usually
    go about 8 feet long. I'd also suggest a Fuji graphite reel seat
    and carboloy guides. Hypalon used to be the best grip material,
    but Fuji makes some better grip stuff, but I don't know what it's
    called. 
    
    I think you can specail order the Shakespeare jigging rod at Roach's
    Sporting Goods in Cambridge (on Mass Avenue, Porter Square). They
    don't have it in stock, but they'll order it. I think it's about
    $70-80.
    
    Have fun.
    

    Does anyone have a catalog handy with Penn reels? Spags has a sale
    on the Penn 113H for $59.97. I was wondering if that was a reasonable/
    good price? Any input on the reel would also be welcomed. I will be
    mostly using it for Cod and occasional blues/bass.

    Thanks in advance
    Rich

At last count I think I had six 113H Penns. A great reel for cod, maybe just a
bit heavy for blues, but okay for occasional use as you mention. That is a 
good price.

You'll have them for life. I have the first Penn saltwater reel I ever got,
back in 1952. It gets new line like the rest of my reels, and is still in use.

For spinning, after going through Olympics, Daiwas, Shakespeare Sigmas, and who
knows what else, I finally just broke down and picked up two Penn 750SS reels.
I expect them to last like my Penn conventionals.

Art

       Yup, me too! Nothing but Penns, 113H for Cod, 704Z for surf Spinning
    rod, and 720Z's for fresh water spinning. I won't buy anything else.
                                            Denny

    I'll throw in my 2 cents on the 113H. Best cod reel around (except
    for my my 114H which will also handle a yellowfin :^) ) Fill
    it with 50lb test. MAC's catalogue has them for 59.99 also.
    
    Capt. Codfish

    Can't resist.  The Penn 209 is the ultimate Salmon reel.  I've
    had a 209 since I can't remember.  However, I lost it to an unfortunate 
    incident in which we discovered that Penn reels do *not* float.
    
    sigh
    
    However, i am now testing the Penn 320 GTi.  So far, it has performed
    very well, but we won't know if it is a reel worthy of the Penn name
    for at least 20 years.
    
    /brett
    

 I have a Penn 112H (Cod bait reel) and a 114H (Cod, yellerfin, shark). Both
have worked very well. The price you quote on the 113H seems reasonable.
I really like Penn equipment.

 The Doctah

  Overton's, Outerbanks, and another marine equipment catalog has the
113H at $67 - $71 plus shipping & handling.  $60  sounds pretty good.

Al

    Ok, thanks for the info. I'm on my way to the DCU then Spags.
    
    Thanks
    Rich
    
    BTW: I have a 320gti that I use for downrigging, So far I like it, but
    time will tell.

    	Well I finally got around to getting some line for my cod rig.
    I got the 50 lb. test Dacron I wanted (300 yds. for $9) and I got 
    some 54 lb. test squidding line for backing. Now I have a couple
    questions.
    
    	Does Dacron line have any advantage over the squidding (nylon)
    line ? FWIW - I went with the Dacron because I wanted to do some
    jigging and was told Dacron gives a better feel/hook set over mono
    as mono stretches. This made sense to me but what about squidding 
    line ? Someone else told me that if you get a high enough lb. test 
    of mono it doesn't stretch enough to worry about. Any opinions ? Is 
    this really another one of those "personal preference" type of 
    questions ?
    
    	Also, I plan on putting a mono leader on after the Dacron but I'm 
    not really sure why. Can the fish see the Dacron line maybe ?

    	RAYJ
    
    BTW - The 16 oz. lead cod jigs were $5 each at Zyla's in Merrimack.

    re: .20
    
    RayJ....
    Dacron and (nylon) squidding line are similar - but:
    
    	Dacron has less stretch than squidding line which has less stretch
    than mono (even heavy mono stretches)
    
    	Squidding line is 'softer' than Dacron. (I think) this is due
    to the braid (or weave).
    
    	Dacron is more abrasion resistant than nylon.
    
    	Dacron has a bit smaller diameter/# test than nylon.
    
    	When casting (or rapid free-spooling) squidding line will give
    you a shower.
    
    	Squidding line is now available from only a couple of
    Manufacturers,in limited sizes (36# and 54#). [Line trivia: these
    sizes are hold overs from the days of linen and 'Cuttyhunk' lines-
    based on the number of threads braided together. Each strand of
    thread was supposed to be 3# test WHEN WET. # threads per braid,
    hence 3 thread line was 9# test. Your 54# line would be called 18
    thread.]
    
    	Many of the newer Dacron lines are treated with teflon to reduce
    drag.
    
    Suggestion-	When joining the squidding and Dacron, use a SPLICE
    rather than something like a blood or surgeons knot. Good splices
    virtually never fail, and slide right through the guides. Splices
    don't rip your thumb like knots do! If you add a mono leader, this
    too can be spliced to the dacron, unless you use double lines using
    Bimini or Spider hitches.
    
    
    Bagel

    	Bagel,
    
    	Thanks for the quick response. This answers a lot of questions.
    
    I unfortunately already tied the dacron to the squidding line. I
    used (for lack of a better phrase) a double cinch knot. In other
    words, I tied one line to the other using a cinch knot and then tied
    a cinch knot in the other and tighted them up till both were snug.
    Probably not the best knot I could have tied but my knot tying
    knowledge is very limited. I'll see if I can get someone up here
    to show me how to splice line together as I haven't attached the
    mono leader. BTW - Do I really need a mono leader ??????
    
    	I did put about 150 yards of dacron on though so it should
    take a while before I get to it. I also have a roller tip on my
    rod which should minimize the strain on the knot going over the tip.

    	If I had it to do all over again, I probably would have left
    the backing off all together. I have a Penn jigmaster (500M) which
    has the solid stainless spool so there is probably little chance
    that it will warp/explode. It's supposed to hold 300 yds. of 30
    lb. test. I'm hoping I got at least 200 yards of line total using
    what I did.

    	RAYJ

 RAYJ-

 There is a goos reason to have a ten to twenty foot section of mono for a 
leader in addition to any thoughts about line visibility: the mono acts as
a sort of shock absorber. I realize that you want to have a fairly tight line
with very little stretch for jigging, but it makes sense to have a little
bit of stretch. If you should happen to hook up to some rocks while drifting,
having that little bit of shock absorption could mean the difference between
keeping your rig or snapping it off on the bottom. I saw the latter occur on
a party boat once; an old timer standing next to me told me how to avoid the
problem by using a twenty foot section of mono.

 Personally, I like having a mono leader. It gives me more confidence that I
will be able to fool the fish. Sometimes, that little bit extra is all I need.

 Good luck,

 The Doctah

    RE:.22
    
    RayJ- 
    With the stainless spool, AND Dacron, there was really no need for
    the backing (other than to save $ on Dacron). Even mono doesn't
    present a problem 'popping' the spool if it's steel. 
    
    re: .23
    
    Doctah...I concur completely  [now we can split the fee  ;-) ]
    	     Add the mono leader, not only for the previous reasons,
    	but one spool of mono will give you a season's worth of fresh
    line at the working end! (Remember to change it after each trip)
    Also..... should a school of blues pass by, you'll be all set.
    When I started 'squidding' the surf, I learned the hard way that
    blues are line shy.
    
    
    Bagel

    Doctah and Bagel:
    
    	Thanks again for the responses. I figured their was a common
    sense reason for setting up this way and you guys explained it very
    well. 

        Although I now have enough Dacron left for a complete spool
    of line change, I didn't really save much money. The squidding line
    was $3.50 for 150 yards and the Dacron $9 for 300 yards.
    
    	As an aside, you really notice the high 4:1 speed on the Penn 
    Jigmaster when your putting line on. Hopefully it has the leverage
    at the handle to still have the torque needed to get the fish up
    relative to the 113H and 114H which are 3.25:1 and 2.8:1 respectively.
    Guess it won't matter if I pump the fish up though.
    
    	I assume that the retrieve ratio is that of the empty spool itself
    and that it will increase as you put more line on ???
    
    	RAYJ

    re .25
    
    RayJ...
    
    You pretty much got the ratio figured out. I'm pretty sure that
    on revolving spool reels that the ratio is measured (?) at the axle.
    (On spin reels it's measured by turns of the rotor/cup)
    
    So... yes the fuller the spool, the more line retrieved per crank.
    BTW- Penn sells auxilliary handles for many reels (not sure about
    the Jigmaster). These have three (3) mounting holes so you can adjust
    the leverage.
                
    Bagel

When I'm cranking a cod up from 200', there's a real psychological sigh when
I finally see the leader come out of the water. I know there only about 20'
to go.

Also, I fished one day with a leader on one rod and no leader on the other 
(identical rods otherwise) - I found that I lost more fish on the rod with
no leader. I get sort of boisterous about setting the hook, and I was probably
pulling the hook right out of the fish. The mono leader serves as my shock 
absorber.

Retrieve ratio (like, the 4:1 on your JigMaster) means you turn the crank
once, the spool turns four times. When most of your line is out the spool
diameter is smallest, and you retrieve less line with each turn. Your mechanical
advantage is greatest then. The amount of line that actually comes in per 
each revolution of the spool varies continually from empty spool to full spool.

That's why I sometimes laugh at the reel adds that claim "fastest reel around,
with a X:Y ratio" -- you look at the spool size, and it's tiny. Sure the spool
is moving a lot, but it's not moving much line.

Welcome to bottom-bumping. See you on Stellwagen and Jeffreys?

Art

" When most of your line is out the spool
diameter is smallest, and you retrieve less line with each turn. "

You retrieve less line with each turn than when the spool is full.

Actually, from empty spool to full spool you retrieve MORE line with each
turn as each layer goes on the spindle.

It just didn't look right after I wrote it.

Art

    	I finished off my outfit by getting some 50 lb. test Cortland
    line. This line seems very pliable for 50 lb. test. It also seems
    very stretchy.
    
    	I also spliced mono to darcon for the first time per
    recommendations from people in this file. Although it's a little
    more time consuming than tying a knot, the end result it no knot
    exists to snag on the guides on the way in/out. 
    
    	It was easier than I thought it was going to be too. Just push
    the mono up through the middle of the dacron and work it up into
    the dacron (I got about 2' of it up there). The dacron acts like a 
    chinese finger lock. Really slick.
    
    	There was a slight fray at the end of the dacron so I wrapped
    a little thread around it to stop this. Next time a may just try
    some bee's wax. You could probably just hold a match to the end 
    and melt it to prevent fray but I didn't want to chance weakening
    the mono. A little fray is probably not a big deal anyway.

    	Thanks for the tip...............RAYJ

    RayJ
    
    	I've never needed to make a Dacron/Mono splice but the method
    mentioned sounds real good. My thought concerning fray prevention
    would be to try inserting a solid strand of approx. 12 guage wire
    (or the equivilant) into the Dacron to keep it open while cauter-
    izing the end with a match (lighter) prior to inserting the mono.
                                        
                                 J_W_F_W_T_W_M_T_W_B_T_W_I_H_(MA)
    

    If someone has a Daiwa 400H reel and comes across a parts list for
    it, could you please post the part # for the crome metal ring that
    goes around the outside of the reel. I have two reels that the 
    saltwater has done a number on. 
    
    Thanks
    Steve

    
    
    	Assume you use no backing, 50 lb Dacron and a mono leader, what
    size (test) mono should you use?
    
    SPD

    As a novice, fishing for the second season, I need some advice I have
    been unable to extract from the "notes file".  I want to buy a Penn
    Jigmaster reel (figured this out from notes and friends) and a rod to
    go with it.  It will be used primarily for blues off party boats off
    the Jersey shore.  In exploring the stores i am unable to choose a rod! 
    One combo was a jigmaster with a heavy Slammer rod, 2771AC I believe. 
    At under $70- price seemed OK, but rod seemed to heavy duty.  Any
    suggestions on rods?  How to pick?  Why some have roller at end?
    
    Thjanks to all the experts inn advance.
    
    Allan (new to the pleasures of life)

    	I saw a rod at P.K. Zyla's that looked like it would do the trick.
    It was fairly heavy duty but light to hold and lighter action than my
    Daiwa Beef Stick. The price was fairly low too (around $40). I just cant 
    remember the brand name. It was white and it was a fiberglass/graphite 
    composite as I remember. For some reason Bruin seems to ring a bell but
    I wouldn't swear to it. I also saw the same rod at at the Kittery Trading 
    post a while back.
    
    	Bruce Sweet can probably answer this better but I think the roller
    eye on top is so that you get less line abrasion/resistance then you would 
    pulling the line through a stationary eye.
    
    	RAYJ
    
    BTW - I have a Penn Jigmaster and I'd recommend getting the larger
    handle. I picked one up at the Massabesic circle for about $4. It makes
    a BIG difference when trying to haul in a big fish and it fits my hand 
    better too.

    Not an expert, but here's some info:
    
    Get a graphite or graphite composite rod. The Penn Slammer
    is a good choice, they're lighter than the others.
    
    Guides:
    
    there are 3 types:
    
    1. chrome steel
    
    2. carballoy
    
    3. roller.
    
    
    chrome will rust in the salt.
    
    Best bet is carballoy guides with an Aftco roller tip. the roller
    is mainly for use with wire line, but it does reduce the
    friction on any aline.
    
    
    
    JIm.

    Guys;
    
    Thanks for all the advice.  I made the purchase of a PENN 505HS reel
    and a Master 7' graphite composite rod (el chippo - made in Korea)
    recommended by Joe the owner of julian's on Rte. 36 in New Jersey. (my
    buddy knows Joe for years).
                                               
    I pulled in several big Blues off the party boat saturday PM, including
    the runner up in the pool.  Too bad second doesn't pay on party boats. 
    I had a great time and can't wait to go next time.
    
    Allan
    It was a good choice, I pulled in sevceral 

    Allen,
    
    How much did the runner up weigh, and the winner?
    
    Don
    

    TO .38:
    
    They used a balance scale on the boat not a wieght scale.  Since it was
    36-40" long I assume in the 15-20 lbs. range.
    
    Allan

     I would like to buy a fishing rod for a young boy who goes
    fishing in the ocean.  I know nothing about fishing nor what
    to look for in a fishing rod.  Does anyone have any advice
    on what to buy for a fishing rod? Appreciate any help on this.
    
    p.s. the "PIKE KING" need not respond!!!
    
    

 It all depends on what kind of fishing the boy does, and how skilled he is.

 If the boy fishes from shore (beach, jetty, dock, bridge) a reasonably priced
but sturdy spinning outfit should suffice. A 7' fiberglass rod with a saltwater 
spinning reel capable of handling 12-17lb test line can cost you anywhere from
$50-100, depending on what you want to spend and should suffice for most
shore applications.

 If the boy fishes from a party boat for bottom fish (cod, haddock, pollock,
and the like) a conventional reel on a boat rod will be in the same ballpark,
except will be capable of handling heavier line and larger weights (30lb to
50 lb line, with 50 lb being preferred.) The rod ought to be in the 8' range
and is usually a one piece rod (the aforementioned spinning rods are often
two piece rods which allows for easier storage and transportation.)

 The best advice I can give you is to ask the boy what he wants to fish for and
then get back to us. :-)

 The Doctah

    Re .40>
    	If the type of fishing is from a boat or pier and you are looking 
    for an entry level rig you can get a solid glass rod for $10 to $15. 
    A low end Penn reel can be had for under $20 also. Add a few bucks for
    line and your in business. Of course this outfit won't be "top shelf"
    but it will be functional. 
    	When I was outfitting my boat and needed equipment for 4 kids and/or 
    guests, as well as the expensive toys, I bought low bucks rigs. I paid 
    $10 - $12 for the rods at Service Merchandise and about $12 - $14 for 
    the reels. I have since upgraded a few of the reels but the rods are 
    still in service.
    	Virtually any one piece boat rod with the glass blank continuous 
    through the whole length of the rod will hold up to normal use/abuse.
    If you stick with Penn reels you'll also find them to be a good buy for
    the money. Penn reels are packed with a small owners manual and I think
    it contains a chart showing the various models and the types of fishing 
    they are suitable for.
    	As the Doctah said, it depends on the type of fishing he'll be
    doing. If more details are available about his needs I sure this
    conference can get right down to model numbers for you. We even have
    a noter that makes custom rods if that's the answer.
    
    Hope this helped
    
    Paul 

    
      I'd watch out for the penn reel with the plastic spool.
    
    
    Bill
    

    re .43, Yes I second that, a friend of mine had one blow up on him
    when he was reeling up a cod. It scared the piss out of both of us.
    Needless to say plastic was flying. 

    Rich

    Not that I'm an expert on saltwater but aren't there stainless steel
    reels in the market? At least Penn should have some models. They 
    might be quite expensive though... (Plastic spools certainly aren't
    for heavy duty fishing.)
    
    Eki

    re -1
    
    	Rick,
    
    	I'd use between 30# and 40# test line.  The higher the poundage,
    	the less stretch you'll encounter - which could amount to a lot
    	when you're trying to jig/hookset at 150-250'.  A heavier line is
    	also great when your stuck on the bottom, or hooked on a lobster
    	line. Depending on the capacity of the reel, you might want to add 
    	3/8" or so of cotton backing (kite string is good).
    
    	Moe

For cod fishing (bottom), I like either Dacron with a mono leader or low-strech
mono like Ande.  50# is my preference as it has low stretch.  Never know when
you may hook a big fish on the bottom.

    Ditto to .48...I'm also a dacron fan for bottom fishing because of its
    very low stretch. The newer low stretch mono lines might also be good but
    I've never tried them because the dacron hasn't worn out yet...another
    reason I like it.
    Regards,
    Paul 

    	I guess I'm looking for something to get me through the next
    weeks/months. I figure a discussion about tackle might help.
    	Does anyone have any experience or opinions about the Pen graphite
    lever drag reels? I just saw an ad for them and figure they would be
    decent for general purpose fishing, a lot lighter than the standard 3/0
    and 4/0. I think the 4/0 size is Model #40GLS and the 3/0 is Model #25GLS.
    	Maybe they would make a nice father's day gift.  :^)
    
    Paul 

re:                   <<< Note 680.50 by DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU >>>

>    	Does anyone have any experience or opinions about the Pen graphite
>    lever drag reels? I just saw an ad for them and figure they would be
>    decent for general purpose fishing, a lot lighter than the standard 3/0

	When I bought my salt water gear a couple years ago, I debated over
	the level-drag graphite and the heavier Senator Special models,
	and I ended up with the heavier brass model.

	The graphite model is lighter like you say, but the decision was 
	made when someone (either a sales rep or a fisherman) told me that 
	the "leveller"  thing that slides back and forth to level the line
	on intake can get bent if you use heavy jigs a lot.  This makes sense...
	jigging a 17 oz jig in 250 feet of water is a lot of stress on that
	little leveller...
	
	If you want to use it just for bait fishing I'd say go for it,
	but I wouldn't get it if you plan on doing a lot of jigging as well.

	I use my saltwater deep sea rig for both jigging and baitfishing
	(because that's the only rig I have).   I do want another setup 
	so I can have the current rig for jigging and another for just bait
	fishing.  In that case, you've got me thinking about going for the
	lighter levelwind model.

	Ken

    I have s Shimano TLD-20 lever drag reel on a Shimano beastmaster 30-80
    lb 6'6" rod.  I have used it for two seasons in the salt and it still
    looks  and works like new.  I keep it on the boat and wash with fresh
    water once in  a while and always spray with WD-40 after each use.
    
    It is a great trolling and bottom fishing setup will do nicely for tuna
    (if one ever comes my way) up to 100-200 lbs.
    
    However, I prefer my penn 3/0 reel and slammer rod for jigging.  The
    Shimano is too heavy and is awkward to jig with.  read tiring.
    
    I have a fishing buddy who has a penn graphite star drag 3/0 or 4/0 and
    loves it.
    
    Gordon (who_is_waiting_to_get_into_the_salt)
      

I like the 113H for cod fishing/jigging and for bait.  If you get hung up,
you're applying a LOT of pressure to the level wind mechanism trying to get
unhung.  I think the 25GLS would make a good "stand-up" bluefish reel, for
trolling umbrella rigs or squid/smoker chains.  I do like the spinning rods
for trolling rapalas (17# line) for blues, but the heavier lures would do well
on 20 or 25# and the 25GLS.  Either way, both have pretty awesome drag systems.

Tim

Re .51>
    
Ken,
	I agree with your decision regarding the level wind models. The
models I was looking at are lever drag vs level wind. 
	I was thinking the 4/0 size might be a decent shark rig and it might
be light enough to use jigging as well. I've got a couple standard 6/0  
outfits and they are heavy. I don't carry all my outfits with me because of 
space limitations and it would be nice to get double duty out of some of them.
I have used the 6/0 for jigging (even mackerel); they're okay if your into
body building.    :^)
	I also have some basic (cheap) "guest" outfits that I like to upgrade 
periodically. I thought the 3/0 might be a good reel for the "all purpose"
boat outfits.
Regards,
Paul   

    I started looking at the catalogues and there are quite a few reels to
    choose from. My all Penn philosophy is being severely tested. ;^)
    With this in mind maybe we can broaden the subject; like lever drags
    vs star drags...graphite vs conventional materials. 
    
    I don't currently own either a lever drag or a graphite reel but the
    obvious advantage of graphite is weight. Anyone know of any drawbacks?
    
    As far as lever drags are concerned it seems knowing the limits of the 
    drag setting is a great advantage in big game fishing. On a star drag 
    once its moved you don't know what kind of drag you have. That's why I 
    preset it and don't move it. I imagine this advantage is not as important 
    for other types of fishing where you know you can overpower the fish no 
    matter what the drag is set at. Any other comments?
    
    Paul        
    

    Paul,
    
       I use 113H and 114H (No I am not into body building) for cod.
    I think the solid brass spool has its advantages. I noticed the
    PENN HL models with the aluminum spools do not get much attention.
    I have a shimano TLD25 (i think) at home that goes to a cod rod I
    am building for someone. He seems happy with the reel, it has
    the lever drag, graphite body and spool. It is considerably lighter
    than a 113H. I will look at it more closely and let you know what I
    think. I definitly think the lever drag is over kill for cod
    (how many cod have ever striped 100yds of line off your reel in
    a blazing greyhounding run?).
    These reels run about $100-120 right? Thats about 30%-40% more than a
    senator.
    
    Bruce

 Level wind for jigging: unless I miss my guess, Paul is talking about lever
_drag_ and not level _wind_. I wouldn't want to use a level wind reel for
jigging, but I would use a lever drag reel for jigging if I wanted to have a
reel that could double for use as a "cod" reel and a small tuna and shark reel.
There's no need to go to the extra expense for just cod, IMO.

 Another benefit of having a regular old senator is the ease of disassembly and
reassembly. You almost can't screw it up. I don't know how easy/difficult
it is to do that with a lever drag reel.

 One thing about Shimano reels- it is very important not to allow them to get 
a wet drag! The manufacturer's comment is to disassemble the reel and use
a blow dryer to dry the drag washers. Not particularly quick and easy,
particularly in rough seas when the bite is on and it's cold out and you'd
really like to pee. :-) Penn reels do not suffer from this problem.

 If you are really going to use the reel for big game, go ahead and spend the 
money on a lever drag. Otherwise, KISS and go for the senator.

 The Doctah

	Oh, leveR _drag_, not leveL _wind_... I was wondering why you
	typed lever instead of level... I get it now.   I don't know
	anything about lever drag, but I've never had a problem with
	the star drag.  Then again, I've never gone out for tuna or
	anything more than cod or blues with the 113H.  Someday I sure would
	like to get into some tuna.  Not necessarily the giants, but
	those 100 lb'ers I've heard about out of Gallilee RI.  
	Nuthin' like fresh tuna on the grille.

	/Ken

    	I got the salt water catalog from BPS and they have an Eagle Claw
    boat reel with lever drag. You can also get it with or without the
    level wind. The non-level wind is about $50 and the level wind was $56
    (plus S+H of course). The handles where the same type as those on the
    Senators (i.e. slightly longer and without the counter weight). The
    capacity of the largest reel was 475yd./30lb and the retrieve was 4.2:1.
    The body was graphite with, I believe, titanium gears. I don't remember
    what the spool was made of but there were 4 stainless ball bearings.
    
    	All in all it looked like a nice reel for the money. Since I'm in
    the market for one I may pick up this one.
    
    	RAYJ

    re: .-1
    
    Sounds like a good reel for a good price.  Other reels with comparable
    features would be around $100+.  I think I'll look at them myself since
    I'm also in the market for a new reel for codfishing.
    
    Gordon
    
    If anyone knows anything about these Eagle Claw reels let us know.
    
    

The Eagle Claw reels (I'm looking at Johnny Morris "Offshore Angler 1991") on
page 11, do in fact have the counter balanced handle.  A lever drag is not
really necessary for codfishing, since you most often have the drag almost
locked, although it can't hurt.  The GTL25 or GTL30 looks like a good trolling
reel for bluefish.

Tim

    
    re:-1
    
    	The one shown in the BPS catalog are (I believe) the GT40 and the
    GTL40 (the "L" has the level wind). These are shown with the larger
    handles and are the next size up from the ones your looking at.
    
    	From what I gather, you normally pay extra for the lever drag. Someone 
    else (Bruce, Doctah ?) mentioned that having this may also allow you to 
    have a dual purpose outfit in one rig (i.e. cod/small tuna outfit).
    
    BTW - Tim, what kind of prices are they asking in the Jonny Morris
    mag just for grins.
    
    	RAYJ

I've had a couple of Silstar lever drag reels for a couple of years.
They've proven to be great for trolling for bluefish, but were no good
for codfishing. I stick with Penn Senators for the heavy bottom fishing
(6 to 35-ounce {yup, thirty-five} jigs).

There might be a bunch of reasons. I like dacron for cod, and mono for
blues. I believe I can set the hook better --in 100 to 300 feet of
water-- with the dacron and Senators; on the lever drag reels, a vigorous
hook-set slam tends to result in some drag slippage (plus some mono
"give"), hence a somewhat softened set. With the Senators, I can probably
set hard enough to drive a hook into rock.  (Well, you get the idea.) 

The lever drags work great for trolling, though. 

Art

Prices for Eagle Claw Boat and Trolling reels: "The moderately priced lever
drags"

Model         Line Cap.   $
(lever drag)
GT25          370/17      44.99  \ These look like they'd make good
GT30          450/20      49.99  / bluefish trolling outfits
GT40          450/30      56.99  - Too big for blues, too small for tuna?
(lever drag, level wind)
GTL25         370/17      54.99
GTL30         450/20      59.99
GTL40         450/30      65.99


Other comments:

I find that Ande tournament green 50# does not stretch that much.  I probably
haven't fished much over 200-250 feet.  I'm hoping to make it to Tillies this
year for big cod and (hopefully!) halibut.  Then we'll see how it works in
300+ feet.


Tim

    Where can you buy these Eagle Claw reels.  I have never seen them in
    any shops.  For a lever drag reel at that price, I'd be interested.
    I need to get a new reel for my wife.  Funny how she catches most of
    the cod, while not paying attention and reading a book.  Maybe I should
    take up reading while fishing.
    
    Gordon
    

    re:-2
    	I went back and took another look in the BPS catalog. I had the
    prices wrong (they were as you had listed). I also looked at them a
    little closer and noticed that the crank is not the Penn type (i.e.- w/o
    counter balance weight).

    re last few>
    	At half the cost of a Penn the Eagle Claw looks pretty good. My
    only concern would be what's inside. Penn makes a big deal about their
    stainless steel gears and special drag material. I wonder how the EC
    would hold up and if you would experience drag fade after awhile.
    	Where are Consumer Reports when you need them?  ;^)
    
    Paul