Conference vmszoo::rc

    ERIC,
    
     The SIG KOMANDER is a got kit. "It can be built in 20 hrs."???
    I,d say that its possibly but probably by a experienced builder.
     I would'nt go back and shoot the salesperson but I do think that
    they should have steered a newcomer in the hobby more towards the
    SIG KADET. It's a bit more stable [high wing] and capable of more
    abuse. Also construction is geared more towards the novice. I'm
    not partial to SIG kits, although they make a fine kit, I am just
    a firm believer in a sturdily built high wing kit for learning on.
     I have flown the KADET and found it to be very forgiving, in that
    it has the stability to get itself back into a wings level attitude
    when you let go of the transmitter sticks. That is if properly
    constructed and properly trimmed for flight. Don't [ I REPEAT DON'T
    ] try flying without instruction, for several reasons. The most
    obvious being able to bring your pride a joy back home from the
    flying field still looking like a model aircraft is supposed to
    look and not back in kit form. Re-kitting your model is not only
    discouraging and expensive, but quite likely will lose another
    supporter of our fine hobby.
    
           So, stick with it, follow the directions, read this notes
    file and welcome to the WONDERFUL WORLD OF R/C.
    
    B.B.

Rick, you have me laughing, not at you, but with you.  Welcome to
the notes file; if you do not get straight advice here, you will
get it nowhere.

I especially direct your attention to note 230, which details the
trials and tribulations of your fellow novices.

    Rick,
    
    Have you "ever" built a balsa model from a kit??  Sounds like maybe
    you haven't.
    
    20-hr. assembly time is probably realistic for a modeler with "some"
    kit-building experience but might just be a little optimistic for
    a 2nd or 3rd kit.
    
    What'll you need to build it?  If you have to ask the question,
    I have to assume you presently have nothing, right/wrong?  If I'm
    correct in this assumption, please SIT DOWN before reading further.
    
    A rudimentary set of bench tools would include, but not be limited
    to the following:
    
     1. Basic X-zcto knike set and blades
     2. Electric drill and bits
     3. Basic hand-tools, e.g. assorted screwdrivers, pliers, wire cutters
        files, etc.
     4. Razor saw 
     5. T-pins, straight pins and or dressmakers pins
     6. C-clamps or equivalent, clothespins
     7. Soldering iron and rosin-core or silver solder
     8. Assorted sandpaper and sanding blocks
     9. Adhesives: CYA (super-glue) and 5 & 30 minute epoxy
    10. Single-edge razor-blades
    11. Monokote heat gun
    12. Monokote sealing iron
    13, Mixing cups
    14. Round toothpicks
    15. Carpenters square, assorted rulers, tape measure
    
    This list does not include the additional items you may need like:
    motor mount, wheels, fuel tank, pushrods balsa fillers, Balsa-rite
    pre-covering preparation, Monokote or similar covering film, bolts,
    blind-nuts, servo-mounting hardware, engine, radio, ad infinitum.
    
    I don't mean to discourage you, quite the contrary, but take a good
    look at whether this is what you want to do `cause it "does" require
    a committment on your part.
    
    The Kadet will do just fine as a trainer though others in yer' area
    may have other preferences for a first airplane.  The VERY FIRST
    thing you want to locate is someone to help and advise you as you
    go.  Don't try to go it alone...you'll just tread over old ground
    making lots of avoidable mistakes and bad decisions. 
    
    Adios,	Al

    Rick,
    I am sure that it is mentioned previously in some of the early notes,
    but I will repeat it just so you will not miss it.  I would highly
    recommend that you join a model club in the area and I feel that
    although it is not required by law, that AMA should be just for
    the insurance purposes.  This is part of the commitment that Al
    mentioned earlier.  (Commitment translates into dollars.)  The 
    advantages of a model club are several.  One is that it will probably
    make finding an instructor easier.  The second is that you can 
    probably get on the scene help (although the notes file does offer
    some very good advice.)  It also gives you a chance to shoot the
    breeze with people interested in the same hobby as you are.
    
    Ken

    I too would suggest that you trade it in for a Kadet..
    
    Where did you buy this??  Royal Ridge Mall??  That's where I was
    suckered into my first plane.  I tried to learn to fly it myself
    and rekitted it very quickly.  The people at that store generally
    are into cars and/or military plastic models...
    
    In any case, please take note of this...
    
    The Southern NH Radio Control Club meets the second Tuesday of each
    month at the Hudson Memorial School, in Hudson, NH.  The next meeting
    is on November 10 @7:30.  Please come and meet some of the people
    in the club.  The club members will be more than willing to talk
    to you and after you are done with your plane, will be more than
    happy to teach you how to fly..
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Just for the record, you are probably looking at an extra $300
    before you get into the air. $50-60 for engine, $160-190 for radio,
    $40 in misc "shop materials", $40 for AMA membership, $20 for club
    membership, $10 for fuel, $50 for specialized tools(heat gun, covering
    iron, etc) and finnaly $25 for a subscription to some RC mag.  
    
    I will second the suggestion abuot getting a Great Planes Perfect
    Trainer 40. You could consider the Perfect Trainer 20 also. Its
    a smaller version. The instruction in the kit are  very good.
    Also get the biggest engine recommended for the kit. ie is kit sez
    for engine .35 to .50, get a .50. That way, you will have some power
    in reserve should you need it. What brand engine ? That up to you,
    I happen to have a weakens for FOX. They are upgly but they pack
    a real power punch.
    
    
    Oh yes, 20 hrs of construction... Thatdepends on you available time
    at home. If you are married and with young kids, count on at best
    10 hsrt per week available. Then there is the cash flow problem:
    CAn  you fork out $300 now ? ANd then why rush, winter is upon.
    Take your time, buy the rest of the stuff through mail order (that
    where the mag. comes in handy) and go flying on the spring ..
    
    md 

    The first kit my wife bought me when she new I was interested in
    RC is still in the box.  Bad advice from the hobby shop.  I would
    suggest that you take the time to learn a little about what equipment
    is out there by going to a local flying field and talking to the
    flyers there.  See for yourself what equipment the newcomers are
    using and ask alot of questions.  One problem you will encounter
    in this notes file is information overload and much confilcting
    advice.  This is due to the huge number of opinionated noters
    and diverse interests.  This could also confuse you.  I would
    recommend that you back up and start over, maybe saving this
    kit for your second airplane.  You can save money and frustration
    if you have a little more knowledge of what you're getting into
    before taking the financial plunge.
    
    Don't get discouraged! It is a very satisfying hobby!
    
    Charlie
    

    The Komander has a semi-semetrical foam-core shoulder wing.
    Recommended engine is .40 to .50. It is advertised by Sig as 
    "Desined for novice R/C'ers who want to move up from simpler 
    models or prefer to start with an aileron controlled airplane." 
    It has built in washout which will make it forgiving on nose-high 
    low speed landings. The main landing gear is long wires coming down 
    from the shoulder wing, unlike the Kadet and Kavalier, so it will 
    be less forgiving on those inevitable hard landings.
    
    The risk of starting with a plane like this instead of a high,
    flat-bottom winged trainer is that you are more likely to 
    "re-kit" (to borrow Jeff's descriptive phrase), and it will be harder
    to learn to fly, so you're more likely to get frustrated and give
    up after spending your 300 bucks. The advantage of starting with
    a plane like this is that if you have a good instructor and have
    kept it in one piece until you can fly it well, it will last you
    longer as you move into more aerobatic flight.

    I started on a Kadet, and then moved to the Kavalier which is similar
    to the Komander only just a tad smaller and has built-up balsa rib wings.
    If you have a good instructor you could use the Komander as your
    first plane, but I agree with the others that you should seriously
    consider trading it back in for a high wing trainer like the Kadet,
    or PT40.

    Glad to have you with us, and good luck!
    
    Dave

    I cast my vote for the SIG KLIPPER...
    	Went togehter REAL fast !!!!!!!!!
    

    Hi,
    
    Just have to add my 2 cents.  I have enjoyed great success with
    my Great Planes PT40.  Went together easily in 2 weeks of evenings.
    It flies well and is slow enough to SAVE (if you don't panic).
    
    However, a good trainer is not all you need.  Get the best instructor
    you can find. Period!
    
    G'luck,
    Chris Spohr

    
    
    Re: .10
    
         Yes that was me walking past the food court.  Yes I did "crash"
    before the thing was even out of the box.  Some girl banged into
    the front of the box which spun the rear out. I stopped so as not
    to wipe out one of the other girls, meanwhile, ( I didn't have a red
    flag on an oversize package ) the guy behind me put the end of the
    box into his chest.  
    
         I wonder if this is just the calm before the storm!
    
         Last eve I talked to Bob Spear in Shrewsbury.  I'll be going
    over there to meet him Saturday morning.  Said he will let me try
    a trainer.  Not to mention he has a kit that is *complete*!!! This
    means to me; Gas tank, landing gear and things like hinges to hold
    the rudder. 
    
         I don't mind the hard work involved in building. But I'd like
    the first time to establish the ground rules.  The Sig Komander
    may be a good kit for one of you, and the instructions weren't *that*
    bad. But I want total direction for the first. 
     
      Sig K.   Step 585:  Now mount the batteries, servo's and other
                          stuff someplace between the front and the
                          back of the plane.
    
               Step 586:  Paint your plane.
    
          The model Bob will show me is complete, which will let me
    relax some while building.  
    
          I have had wonderful response from the RC notes file, here
    and over the phone.  I will be building and flying. I'm Irish and
    hard headed.  So I'll get my way no matter how many times I re_kit.
    (Which is why I want to build. If I buy through the RC_Swap, I won't
    know how to re_kit once I crash.) 
    
          By the way. The person who sold me the Komander just started
    working at the Hobby shop. I met the manager last night and we talked
    for a bit.  Ya I'll go back a buy there again, but I'll see the
    Mgr only.
    
          Signed; Rick O.  ( Crashed already.)    8^J
    
          
          

    Rick,
    
    Thiswas one of the best notes I saw here, with lots of enthusiastic
    replies. Including mine!
    
    Like you, last May I went to a hobby show and walked out of there
    with a plane and a motor and a radio and wheels and tank and a flight
    box and some monokote and the truth is that I bought at least one
    of everything they had for sale. The name of the plane was Disaster.
    Or was it Kadet? One of the two...
    
    I built the plane. I enjoyed it but it took more than 20 hours. 
    It wasn't really difficult, though. The pieces do go together and I made
    a few mistakes,but those helped me build the following kits.
    
    By the time I had spent about $400 I was ready to fly. And here
    is what I did right. I went to a field where some guys were flying
    and asked for help. As it is, they were members of a club and it
    worked out great. Execpt for Disaster.
    
    Don't get me wrong: it flew and I did learn how to fly with it and
    I did not crash! But I nearly gave up. Because it is still extremely
    fresh in my mind how hard it was,here it goes:
    
    The so called "trainers" all have high wings with flat bottoms and
    dihedro which is supposed to make them stable. Take it from me,
    I went through only a couple a month ago and it is still all too
    fresh in my mind.
    
    1. Somebody always takes off for you first, so leave the take off
    for now.
    
    2. Once it is up there, believe me, you have to fly it! You let
    go the stick and all that story of "it flies by itself" goes down
    the pipe. They (none of them) don't fly by themselves. You let go
    the stick and they come down real quick,especially if they were
    is some funny position (which is why you let go the stick in the
    first place).
    
    3. The most common cause for crashes for novices like us is correcting
    the wrong way when you come out of a turn. Instead of straightening
    the wings, you turn the stick the wrong way and the sun of a gun
    rolls on you. Once upside down or almost (and it happen really really
    fast), the "trainers" do it to you every time:
    
           a. The flat bottom wing simply does not fly upside down!
              You are into the ground way before you can start swearing.
    
           b. I you let go the stick, I gess it would eventually correct
              itself somewhat. But you would be counting on it and you
              almost never have the 4000 feet required.
                                                                   
    And then there is the story of them not going where you want them
    to go. The exagerated dihedro makes them dance instead of turning.
    They fight you when you are trying to turn. The " three channels"
    without ailerons are even worse, but the regular ones aren't much
    better.
    
    4. Finally, the Instructor lets you try a take off. That's when
    you nearly quit. The "trainers" with flat bottom wings and lots
    of dihedro ( the kadet family like ) does not like to take off.
    Imagine a calm day, absolutely no wind. Everything is perfect. From
    the end of the runway, you give it gas. It rolls forward, a little
    erratic, maybe. It keeps going. You pull back a little, it doesn't
    go up...All of a sudden VUP! The nose is straight up , you loose
    speed and lift, it stalls, crash! In my few months at the field
    I saw more novices crash their kadet-like planes that way than any
    other way!
    
    5. Now, the hobby killer: windy days. The kadet like planes just
    do no take off in the hands of a novice in a windy day.In fact,
    my instructors refused to try because even they had a very hard
    time. The darn things don't even taxi! The wind blows them upside
    down standing still! And I am not talking huricane. I am talking
    15 km per hour winds. 
    Unfortunately, in North America if you don't fly on windy days you
    ain't gonna fly much...
    
    The Eagle was the only "trainer" I saw (flat bottom) which was
    half-decent. Not good, but less frustrating than the rest.It has
    very little dihedro.
    
    Looking back, I would say I would buy a Stick. They are ugly as
    an exposed fracture but they are practical: simetrical wing profile,
    very little dihedro, engine fully exposed ( you can fix the darn
    thing without having to take the spinner,prop,mufler,needle,etc
    out. And the one I saw ( I tried one  ) fly perfect. Much more of
    a trainer than any of the "trainers".
    
    Good luck!
    
    Fern

    Sorry, Fern, but I have to disagree with most of what you said.
    Yes, if you buy a kit it's a lot of work to build it. For some of
    us that's the fun of this hobby: It's two hobbies in one. Building
    a plane takes skill and a reasonable amount of craftsmanship. Flying
    a plane also takes skill. I enjoy increasing my skill in both areas.
    
    It sounds like your building experience wasn't the best, and it
    resulted in your flying experience not being the best. If a plane
    isn't built right, it won't fly right. Trainers such as you mention
    are easy to take off and easy to land. If they're trimmed properly
    (by your instructor, before giving you the transmitter) they won't
    "fly themselves", but they're pretty stable in the air. If you
    mis-correct and get upside down and don't have time/room to straighten
    it out, you were flying too low. My rule was to stay 3 mistakes
    high, one for me and two for the instructor.
    
    The only problem I've seen with a flat-bottom high wing 3 channel
    trainer is in a crosswind. No, you can't taxi around in a high wind
    because when you turn so the wind is coming from the side
    it will get under the wing due to the dihedral and try to flip you.
    Lots of non-trainers won't taxi in much wind either. Landing
    in a cross wind is difficult with a high dihedral high lift trainer
    because they have such a low stall speed that you have to float
    them in real slow to land. This exaggerates the effect of the wind.
    But brand new beginners shouldn't fly on a windy day until they
    have acquired reasonable flying skill. The frustration of waiting
    for a calm day is much less than the frustration of spending a lot
    of great flying days rebuilding your crashed plane.
    
    The benefits of such a trainer far outweigh the negatives. I believe
    the probability of success for a new flyer (ie, doesn't give up
    and quit) is much higher if they start with a high wing flat bottom
    trainer, and get help if necessary to build it straight and true.
    
    Dave

    RICK
      IF I WERE YOU I WOULD TAKE THE SIG KOMANDER BACK TO THE GUY
    WHO SOLD IT TO YOU AND SHOOT HIM.BECAUSE FROM WHAT YOU SAID
    HE IS THERE TO MAKE A BUCK NOT TO HELP THE BEGINER PILOT(THERE
    IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAKING A BUCK).
      ALSO BOB SPEAR IS MY INSTRUCTOR AND I KNOW THE PLANE HE HAS
    IN MIND IT'S CALLED THE HOOLIGAN.I WAS OVER FLYING WITH HIM
    THIS PAST WEEKEND AND HE HAS THE HOOLIGAN ALL BUILT AND HE AND
    I THINK IT IS A GOOD TRAINER BECAUSE WE BOTH FLEW IT AND I MIGHT
    ADD IT WAS GREAT.
      I ALSO STARTED WITH THE SIG KADET MK2 AND MOVED TO THE SIG
    KAVELIER.IF YOU WERE TO PUT A .60 SIZE MOTOR IN THE KOMANDER
    IT WOULD BE LIKE TRYING TO FLY A BULLET.I HOPE YOU TAKE MY ADVISE
    IN THE BEGINING OF THIS ENTRY BECAUSE AS A BEGINNER YOU WON'T
    GET OFF THE GROUND.
    
    
    
                                          KEEP'EM FLYING
                                          JERRY

    My first plane was a bud nosen rookie 40, 3 ch. high wing, flat
    bottom airfoil. It was a real floater and I totaly enjoyed learning
    on this type of plane. Anyone that asks me where to start get's
    this type of plane as an example.
    
    p.s flat bottom wings will fly inverted, I've done it several times
        with this plane.