Conference vmszoo::rc

    anker,
    
    excellent.  i'm sincerely delighted at the prospects of another
    giant scale warbird in the neighborhood!  (wheres that hurri anyways?)
    there just aint enough of us around these parts.
    
    for documentation, eric has a good suggestion.  get a book or 2 just on
    spitfires.  you may find a particular variant/camo scheme that you dont
    even know about yet.  also you never know which picture will someday
    supply that missing tidbit of info.  for my thunderbolt, i bought a
    photopak from scale model research which contained 13 3x5 color pic's.
    despite this, there was much detail which i got from other books
    (eg cockpit interior detail).  plus its just fun to read.  zenith and
    historic aviation are good places to start.
    
    at home i've got a scale model research catalog.  i'll bring it to
    work and send you a photocopy of the spitfire section.  without
    looking, i'll bet they have 10 different spits to choose from.  if
    theres a spit within driving distance of mass, he may well have it.
    
    retracts are tough.  i say that mostly cause they are expensive and the
    first thing to get dinged on a poor landing.  i like the units gene
    barton sold me for my p47 but they probably arent quite right for a
    spit (his zero retracts may be closer).  a better bet is dave platt
    who sells a zero kit, also at 88" wingspan i believe, and retracts for
    same.  these might be just the ticket.  if you call dave, you might do
    better to not tell him the kit is not his own.  i called him once about
    buying his scale droptanks for my "baker jug" and he went into a tirade
    about, well, never mind.  just as an educated guess, dave's retracts
    are probably as scale as anything else you can buy, but maybe dont have
    the best robustness-to-cost ratio.  robart also has "generic" giant
    scale gears which you can order right out of tower.
  
    have you picked an engine yet.  what weight does the kit think it
    will come out at?
    
    kevin

    You might try Innovative Model Products! They sell a plan set for
    an 80+ inch spit. 
    
    Boy, I give ya a lot of credit!! That's a lot a work.
    
    
    Tom
    
    P.S. I thought I was the only one is today. I didn't expect anyone
    else.
    
    

>        Where is there a real Spit mark 9 within travelling distance?
>        
>        What is a good source of ducumentation for this ship?
>        
>        What  retracts  are best for this bird.  88 inches wing span,  so
>        its a  biggie.  I absolutely want scale retraction speed.  I hate
>        the SMACK of air retracts.

I found 6 Spitfires MkIX's documented by Scale Model Research.

Call Bob Banka at (714)979-8058.  He also has 3 views for Mark IX's.

I found 2 in Museums.  Harligen Texas in the Confederate Air Force Flying 
Museum, and Ottawa Ontario in the National Aviation Museum, Rockcliffe Airport.
The Ontario Spit is a MkIX L.F.

I'm sure after you read a few Spitfire books you will be able to tell us
what L.F. means.

Air retracts are only fast if you allow them to be.  Just restrict the flow
like the directions say and they will run at scale speeds.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
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        Re:          <<< Note 1159.4 by K::FISHER "Stop and Smell the Balsa!" >>>

        Thanks guys!
        
                I am  getting the ST engine that Tower advertises it with
        in a combo  deal.    I don't remember the number, but its the 1.5
        cu.  in.   version.    Should be more than adequate.  They had an
        earlier combo with the O.S.    .91  FSR,  which  seemed  much too
        little power.
        
                The Ottawa spit is the closest  to  here, drving to Texas
        is a bit far.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Pica spit is
        desiged from the Ottawa spit.  A clue  is  that  there  are maple
        leaves in the decal set, and also a set  of Canadian roundels.  I
        have never been in Ottawa, so it seems like a  good excursion for
        a long weekend.
        
                Thanks for the book hints and the phone number.
        
                I had forgotten that Eric was building a Hurricane.  This
        is going  to  be  fun!  Next year promises to be busy.  I plan to
        campaign on the  ESL  glider circuit and also try to get a couple
        of scale meets in.
        
        
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             Anker           

        Re:    <<< Note 1159.7 by CSTEAM::HENDERSON "Compete fairly, and still win." >>>

                New development.  I called Scale Model Research and had a
        chat with Bob.    As  far as he knows the Ottawa Spit has clipped
        wings, cut off squarely  ---- barf!  Instead, I am getting a huge
        picture  pack  on  a  South    African  Spit.    Bob  was  really
        enthusiastic about this particular bird, and  I just happen to be
        South African by birth.  (So you  guys  thought  I  was  Danish -
        that too!) I am also getting two different  sets  of three views.
        The check went off in the mail today and strating a week from now
        I'll be ready to burst every time I get home.    I  plan to bring
        the whole kit to the next CRRC and DECRCM meetings.
        
                The trip to Ottawa is not off, I still want to  get close
        and see a lot of details.
        
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             Anker           

    Anker: 
    Several years ago I was in England and got to see a Lancaster, Spitfire
    and a Hurricane flying in formation at Beacon Hill. I beleave it was the
    only flying lancaster in exsistance.  I also got fly in a Dehavilland
    (sp?)Repead the same day. I now this won't help you with your Sitfire
    project but you notes reminded me of this. The Spit was by far the
    prettier of the bunch.  

    Another possible source of info on spits is the RAF Battle of Britain
    museum at Hendon, near London. I have been there and there is a large
    bookstore which had tons of information on all sorts of RAF planes. The
    spit is the sentimental favorite in England. There are several which
    fly regularly at the numerous air shows which are held all summer in
    England. I have seen 3 spits, 2 hurricanes and a Lancaster in formation
    at the Biggleswade airdrome 2 years ago.  With 1990 being the 50th
    anniversary of the battle of Britain, I would expect that plenty of
    material would be available. The Spitfire seems to be the popular
    favorite in England, like the p-51 in the US. Perhaps the UK noters can
    help you out.  
    RE previous note...."BEACON HILL"   is probably meant to be BIGGIN
    HILL, a major fighter base during the Battle of Britain. Easy to
    confuse since both are sites of hot exhaust, noise and propwash :)

        Re:                     <<< Note 1159.10 by MEMIT::BKENNEDY >>>

                I'll have  to  stop there on my next trip back to Europe.
        I also just learned that the Air and Space museum has a spitfire.
        Unfortunately  most  of their  planes  are  suspended  under  the
        ceiling so its hard to  get  close.    I cakked Zenith books last
        night  and  ordered about $50 worth  of  books  and  will  get  a
        catalogue. They have lots and lotf of books on spits.
        
                I  bought  Lucasfilm's  game,  "Battle of Britain,  Their
        Finest Hour".  That game is absolutely fantastic.   The  airplane
        simulation is the best I have ever seen.  It  runs  best on a VGA
        display and on a fast system. Boy is it impressive!
        
        Anker

    Anker,
    
    Unless they've moved it (as I guess they're prone to do sometimes), the
    Spit at the NASM/Smithsonian is displayed sitting on the floor in front
    of the enormous B-17 mural by Keith Ferris.  Howsomever, unless they've
    changed the aircraft displayed, the one they had when I was there in
    ~ '76 was a high-altitude mark with stretched, pointy wingtips...not
    one I'd care to model.  But, many other common details might be of help
    to you.  I have a framed pic of the C.A.F.'s Mk-IX signed by and given
    to me by my C.A.F. buddy, Gerald Martin, who used to fly the Spit for
    C.A.F. Airsho's (sic)...bet you'd kill for it, eh?  :B^)  The Spit is
    in legless ace Douglas Bader's colors.
    
    BTW, I meant to tell you not to be daunted by the camo paint scheme;
    it's, without question, the easiest type paint scheme I've ever
    applied!  Think about it, NO MASKING!  Some schemes did have a hard
    (masked) line between the light under-surface color and the camo's
    upper-surfaces but, from there it's a breeze!  Oh, I should mention
    that it's a breeze _provided_ you have a good airbrush.  Simply spray
    on the lighter of the two camo colors and "draw" on the camo with the
    other color using yer' color documentation as a guide...what could be 
    simpler?!    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

        Re:         <<< Note 1159.12 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >>>

        Al,
        
                I just  want  to get close to a real spit and look at how
        the panels are  designed,  what  the surface looks like, how much
        detaili the is on the real ship that the pictures and three-views
        don't show.  I am  very  interested in looking at how the retract
        system works.
        
                I hope that I have found  the  actual  ship  I'll  model,
        namely a South African one, but I'm afraid that ship may be a bit
        far away to go look at directly.
        
                I would kill for your picture.  Just hope I don't come to
        Phoenix! How the heck did you get it?
        
                Interesting    what  you  had  to  say  about  camouflage
        painting.   I  WAS  under  the  impression  it would be tough and
        require all kinds  of  curved masking.  What do scale judges have
        to say if the  shapes  and sizes of the patches aren't exactly as
        on the original?
        
        
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             Anker           

        Re:         <<< Note 1159.14 
         
        Anker,
    
        >        I would kill for your picture.  Just hope I don't come to
        >Phoenix! How the heck did you get it?
        
        ** As I said, my close friend of more than 20-years, Gerald Martin,
        an early (if not founding) member of the C.A.F. used to fly the
        Spit for the C.A.F.'s Airsho's and, as a thank you for something or
        other, Gerald gave me a framed, full color picture of the Spitfire
        (with him at the controls, of course) which now hangs on my workshop
        wall.  Gerald's also an excellent R/C pilot (totally rapt with
        oldtimers the past 5-6 years)...that's how I met him many moons ago.
    
        >       Interesting    what  you  had  to  say  about  camouflage
        >painting.   I  WAS  under  the  impression  it would be tough and
        >require all kinds  of  curved masking.  What do scale judges have
        >to say if the  shapes  and sizes of the patches aren't exactly as
        >on the original?
    
        ** Nope, no masking!  Camouflage was/is applied with spray guns
        feathering one color into the other.  A hard (masked) line would be
        contrary to the purpose.  Thus, we apply camouflage the same way
        except we use a smaller spray gun, namely an airbrush to feather
        one color into another, providing a "soft" transition from one to
        the other.  Most camouflage schemes follow a prescribed pattern;
        the Brits used several basic types and any plane finished to [say]
        type-A camo looked like all others done in type-A.  You see,  camo
        is NOT just a random thing as most folks may suppose.  Thus, you
        must do yer' best to duplicate the camo-pattern but my experience
        has been that judges are not terribly critical of minor deviations,
        realizing, I suppose, the difficulty in exactly replicating
        something that "appears" to be totally random...Orrrrrr (and I
        believe this is closer to the truth) they too fail to realize there
        is more exactness to camouflage than meets the eye.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    If you ever get to the Dayton, Ohio area, I believe the The US Air Force
    Museum located at Wright-Patterson field has a Spitfire. 
    
    Like most of their other displays it is either under roof on the
    resting on its own gear or outside on the hangar aprons. Either
    place, you can get real close, take pictures, make drawing and even
    touch it if you wish.  Whichever location they have it on display
    you will find an aircraft that has been meticulously restored and
    well kept.                                 

    This also goes for a great number of other military planes from
    both the US and other countries (Great Britain, France, China, USSR,
    etc.
    
    Nice place to spend a weekend.
    
    -TomR-

        Re:             <<< Note 1159.0 by CURIE::ANKER "Anker Berg-Sonne" >>>

                The stuff  from Scale Model Research arrived.  Saturday I
        got the two  3-views  and  yesterday the picture pack was waiting
        for me at home.
        
                I ordered 2 three-views,  just to be sure.  Interestingly
        enough they were quite different.   The first was an old one, the
        text on the 3-view covered most of  the specifications, but could
        not cover all because of secrecy, so they must have been from the
        40's.  The other set included both early and late mark IXs.  What
        a  lot  of  differences.    The turbocharger air scoop was  quite
        different, and  the  vertical  stabs were totally different.  The
        early ones had  a  very  rounded stab, while the late ones have a
        pointed one. The PICA kit didn't quite match any of them!
        
                So when the picture  pack arrived I was of course anxious
        to see which of the  three different planes it really was.  Well,
        it was really close to the  late one, but with a few differences.
        Of course, it was as far from the kit as it could be and still be
        the same model.
        
                If I had started the kit before all  of  this  arrived  I
        would  already  have  made  a bunch of mistakes that  had  to  be
        corrected!  The instructions start with the vertical stab and  of
        course  describe  the rounded one, but the plane I'm modeling has
        the pointed one!
        
                Differences from any  of  the  3-views  were the blisters
        above the machine guns and the rear view mirror.
        
                The pictures (76 of them!) showed a ton of detail that is
        hard  to  see from the  3-views  and  which  will  make  all  the
        difference in the world.
        
                Of course I have a bunch of questions:
        
                A)  If  the  3-views  are  slightly  different  from  the
        pictures. Will I be penalized?
        
                B) The colors on the pictures are  all  over the map.  In
        direct  sunlight  they  are all washed out and  in  the  interior
        pictures (I have pictures of the plane parked outside  at  a show
        and  inside the hangar) they are nice and crisp.   I'm  going  to
        have to get more information about the colors.  Do I go  back  to
        Bob at Scale Model Research and ask him how to contact the owner?
        What are my options?
        
        Anker

    Anker,
    
    In answer to yer' questions:
    
    A. If 3-views don't match photographs, even if they're used for color
    documentation, _not_ outline, a sharp judge will pick up on it and,
    yes, yer' static score will suffer.  Obviously, if photos are used to
    augment outline documentation, they'd _better_ agree or, again, yer'
    score will suffer.
    
    B. Yes, colors vary greatly depending on the reproduction method,
    lighting conditions, etc.  That's why the use of color chips has become
    such a big deal the last few years.  Yes, you need to contact the owner
    (through Bob Banka, possibly) and get the Federal Standard (FS) numbers
    for the colors used.  These can be used to obtain color chips and paint
    can then be mixed to match the chips (which will be placed in yer'
    color dicumentation).   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

         In ref to the boundary lines in a camo paint job, if you dont have
    a airbrush, you can cut out the pattern with a light paper and lay it
    on the model with  little spacers applied at strategic locations to
    keep the mask off of the model about 1/8th of an inch.  Then with
    spray cans you will natually get a fuzzy overlap rather than a crisp
    line delineating the two colors.

        Re:                    <<< Note 1159.20 by DPDMAI::GOLDSTEIN >>>

        Neat!
        
        Thanks/Anker