Conference vmszoo::rc

    The CMRCM club now has a waiting list policy since it is at the
    175 member limit imposed this summer.  This limit will probably
    be made permanent at the November Meeting since the extension passed
    with a large majority.  The planned policy is to start a waiting
    list and require members to renew their membership by Jan 31.
    At that time, if less than 175 members have renewed, people from
    the waiting list will be allowed to join.  If anyone is interested
    in joining for next year, they should get on the list now!  I would
    bet that quite a few openings will exist in February.
    
    Charlie
    

    That means you can't join the club. However, since the property
    that the CMRCM uses is state land if you haul you stuff in by hand
    truck no one can stop you from flying anyhow.
    
    Mike
    

    re: .-1 
    
    I think it's a common but incorrect assumption that "state" land is
    available for anybody to do whatever they want. That's not true. The
    CMRCM field is now owned by the Mass. Dept. of Fish and Game, which is
    a state agency. They can and do control that land, including leasing
    part of it out to be farmed (oh, if you can get your tractor in, go
    ahead and plant corn, it's state land!!) and permitting the CMRCM club
    to maintain a flying field. 
    
    The CMRCM club to date has a good relationship with the Fish and Game.
    If non-members stop respecting that relationship and feel they can go
    ahead and fly (and since they're not club members, they're not bound by
    club rules), it could get all of us thrown out of there. It's happened
    many times to many clubs. 
        
    Mike, I know you're a member of the club and I know that you're not
    really advocating "outlaw" type attitudes. We've all read the horror
    stories in this file about the 495th field in Acton - problems caused
    by people doing exactly what you seem to be recommending. We shouldn't
    encourage this type of behavior. 
    
    Dave 

    re: .-2
    
    I am really getting tired of the attitude that 'noone can tell me
    what to do on state land' so I don't have to follow club rules.
    This goes on all around us on the public highways as well.  Dave
    is right that Fish and Game owns and controls the land that the
    CMRCM club flies on.  Mike is right that the club has no real
    enforcement horsepower other than peer pressure.  Fortunately, we
    have one thing going for us and that is limited access to the site.
    The number of active fliers has drastically increased this flying
    season making it much more important for everyone to follow club
    rules and pay more attention to what they're doing.  Mike's suggestion
    that anyone who shows up can fly there will eventually result in
    all of us losing the use of our field.  
    
    CHarlie
    

  I attended the 495th meeting on Tuesday night with Dan Snow. One announcement
that was made was the fact that they are considering raising their initiation
fee from $15.00 to $50.00!  They gave this spiel about having so much to offer
as a club...etc...etc...etc...
  Since I am not a member of the 495th, but have been considering joining for
a while, (especially since CMRCM is basically closed for the next 2 months) I
am a bit worried about this.  I am having a hard enough time finding the
money to get my planes flying, never mind spending $50.00 + membership fee
to join this club.  If I am going to join I am going to have to make sure it
is before the price goes up (assuming the membership approves the increase).

  Are there any other clubs that charge initiation fees?  What are the annual
dues that other clubs charge?  CMRCM costs $15.00 a year with no initiation.



		Jim

    Jim, My club in Western ma. the PVRCC has an initiation fee and
    a membership fee. We also have a late fee.
    
    
    REASONS...
    
    Back 20 years ago when the club started it was a group of 5-10 guys.
    They footed the costs for the initial years. They instituted an
    initiation fee to try and recoup some of the costs. They didn't
    put the money into their pockets. Rather they put it into the
    general funds of the club. The fee has stayed since. It's 50.00
    with dues being 20.00. Once your a member your responsible to renew
    your membership by the December club meeting. If you fail to renew
    your assessed a late fee of 10.00 . This is more of an incentive
    to renew than a penalty. It allows the club to have some money to
    start the year. This coming year will be interesting because we
    have a cap on membership that has been reached and a few applications
    pending. If a current member does not renew by the february meeting
    we will act on new membership applications. One for one. Our
    cap is 120 members.
    
    I used to dislike the initiation fee. I felt it was only an assesment
    on the new members to validate their commitment. I however no like
    the initiation fee. I also like the cap. We've found that those
    members who are given the priviledge to join are active members.
    They participate in club functions. They work, They contribute to
    the good of the club.
    
    
    
    
    Tom

RE:  <<< Note 15.17 by AKOV11::CAVANAGH "So little time, so much to do!" >>>

    Actually, CMRCM does have an initiation fee - $5.00.  I just looked
    on the form I have in my office.

    One of the other clubs I belong to (Quinapoxit Model Flyers) also
    has and initiation fee of $50.00 plus $15.00/year dues.  It seems
    steep at first, but when I thought about it, I'd rather pay $65.00
    the first year and $15.00 every year after that than $40.00 every
    year (like the CRRC club dues are).

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

I guess I can't really sympathize. Here in CS the Pikes Peak RC (PPRC) club
charges $75.00 initiation and $40.00/year dues. The initiation is a little
steep, but well worth it in this case. I think the initiation really helps.
As mentinoed in previous notes, when you shell out this much money you want to
get your money's worth so you participate. Our club maintains a paved runway
and pits and sponsers two or three fun-flys with $300 - $500 worth of prizes
each year. In addition they have a pretty sizable land fund established against
the day we get evicted from our current leased property.

All-in-all a great deal. My advice is this: if the club offers what you want
then pay the fees with a smile and then see to it you get your money's worth
out of it.

Randy

p.s. the cheap in the title refers to the fees you mentioned, not your spending
habits. :-)

        Re:        <<< Note 15.19 by ROCK::MINER "Electric = No more glow-glop" >>>

>    the first year and $15.00 every year after that than $40.00 every
>    year (like the CRRC club dues are).

                Misinformation, Dan.  CRRC dues are not $40 annually, but
        $35 and $30 if you pay before March 1.
        
                Many people join the hobby and decide to leave it after a
        couple of years.   I  believe  it  is fair to allow them into the
        club without imposing a severe penalty and then if they decide to
        stick  with  it  the annual dues  become  a  very  minor  expense
        compared with planes, fuel, etc.
        
                Initiation fees serve one purpose:  to make it harder for
        non-members to join.   I don't believe flying clubs should impose
        barriers without really good reasons.  Clubs with initation fees,
        membership   caps,  etc.    all  are    cliques.        End    of
        overgeneralization!
        
                The total fee structure should be determined  by the cost
        of running the club.
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    Re: last few,
    
    In Phoenix (and, in the west, southwest generally), a $50-75.00,
    one-time initian fee is S.O.P. and few dispute the reasoning behind the
    fee.  The reason is that, out here, virtually _all_ clubs are also hosts
    of improved flying sites, improved being defined as having:  permanent
    ramadas (shade structures, usually attended by a built-in snack-bar, 
    toilet facilities and [on the average] a 75' x 600' paved runway with
    adjacent paved start-up areas, built-in, self-managed frequency-control
    systems, etc., etc.
    
    Naturally, these conveniences didn't come free; the host clubs have as
    much as $50K invested in their flying sites.  These funds were obtained
    by the hard work of club members on the rosters at the time the
    improvements were being made and it hardly seems fair for a new member
    to come along after the fact and bear none of the burden of building
    the field.  Therefore, the initiation-fee serves as the new members'
    contributions to the work/money that went before and is, normally,
    placed into field maintenance/improvement funds.
    
    The fact of the matter is that the initiation-fee is a paltry sum
    compared to the work that preceded their membership and most recognize
    it as an unadulterated BARGAIN.
    
    One of our local clubs had to impose a membership ceiling for a time
    due to the fact that the facility simply couldn't support the over-300
    membership; a day at the field consisted, primarily, of waiting
    frustratedly for a chance to fly.  There was no snobbery intended, just
    an effort to control/maintain the membership at a level where all
    flyers had reasonable access to the field.  Since then, an additional
    facility was added, the problem cured itself and the ceiling was
    lifted.  Honestly, I'm not sure what other viable course might've been
    pursued...suffice it to say that the practice of imposing a ceiling is
    unusual and viewed as an emergency measure only.
    
    Now, in the N.E. where the flying site generally consists of a mowed,
    vacant field, subject to loss at nearly any time, I too would question
    what service/facility a club can provide that justifies an initiation
    fee but, not being there or appreciating all the facts, I cannot, in
    good conscience, criticize it.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al                     
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    IMHO,  
    
    1) Yearly dues should cover the cost of running the club and
    maintaining the club field.  Period.  CMRCM charges $15 per member
    and I believe that's about right given that we have free use of
    a grass field.  We have to pay for mowing, fix the sign and transmitter
    rack once in a while, etc.  Volunteers clean up the field and access
    road every year.
    
    2) Initiation fees should cover the cost of adding a new member to
    the club, i.e. another newsletter to send out, another seat at a
    meeting, etc.  CMRCM charges $5, which again I believe is an
    appropriate amount for these things.  Exhorbitant initiation fees
    do NOT force people to be more active in a club, they only serve
    to shut out newcomers who might want to give the hobby a try but
    aren't sure about it (adding over $100 to the initial start-up costs
    including AMA and club dues really does convince people not to pursue
    the hobby).  And there's another problem caused by high initiation fees.
    Inactive members don't leave because they might want to take up the
    hobby again in a year or two.  For clubs with membership caps this
    shuts out a potential active member from joining.
    
    3) Contests should be self-sufficient and should not drain club funds.
    Out of the 100 to 200 members of a club, I'd bet 80% to 90% of them
    just want to have a place to fly and have good company, and could
    care less about the contests.  Why make them pay for contest prizes?
    Entry fees and concessions should be used to pay for prizes and
    materials for contests.  I think CMRCM does a pretty good job there
    too.
    
    As you can see I'm pretty happy with the fee structure and operation
    of CMRCM.  I could understand higher yearly dues if we had to pay
    rent or upkeep on a runway and other structures (such as Al's example),
    but again - only to pay for those things and not to have a large
    contingency fund or good contest prizes.  Just my opinion, FWIW.
    
    Bill

  Well the other thing that makes me wonder about a $50.00 initiation fee
is the fact that the 495th reported that they have over $9K in their treasury!
They are obviously NOT hurting for money.  CMRCM only has about $1,200.00.  
That is enough to cover what expenses there are, but not so much that it 
drains that memberships bank accounts.  


   Jim

    I ditto Bills response. Couldn't have said it better myself. For
    me, there is at least one other club in the area that I would
    join were it not for the initiation fee.
    
    
    Steve

    One item you guys may need to consider is that in my clubs case
    we have spent in excess of 10K on our field within the past three
    years. This includes runways,road,parking lot,impounds etc.
    
    We expect to loose our field within 1.5 yrs. That's the message
    from the company who wons the field. This then starts the cycle
    again and another field will have to be developed. Before you
    find fault you should try developing a field from a weeded overgrown
    field.
    
    If I remember the 495th has had at least five fields within the
    last 8 years. Hey guys this cost money...
    
    
    
    Tom

        Bill,
        
                That was  said  perfectly.    I  believe that's the basic
        philosophy of CRRC.   We presently have about 4K in the treasury,
        but run a deficit budget.  We will raise the dues when it becomes
        necessary, but not before.  Our big expense is the Medfield State
        Hospirtal site, which we have to lease for about $1700 a year and
        then  add  maintenance.  Mowing is very generously  done  by  the
        Millis club, which has flying priviliges at the site.
        
                We have always welcomed new  members and tried to make it
        easy for them.
        
                All clubs should do the same.

>>    One item you guys may need to consider is that in my clubs case
>>    we have spent in excess of 10K on our field within the past three
>>    years. This includes runways,road,parking lot,impounds etc.
    
>>    We expect to loose our field within 1.5 yrs. That's the message
>>    from the company who wons the field. This then starts the cycle
>>    again and another field will have to be developed. Before you
>>    find fault you should try developing a field from a weeded overgrown
>>    field.
    
>>    If I remember the 495th has had at least five fields within the
>>    last 8 years. Hey guys this cost money...
    
    I think we all agree, Tom - nobody is faulting a club for charging  dues
    to cover the cost of operation - and in your case that cost is clearly
    higher than CMRCM at the moment.  Sounds like it is probably true
    of the 495th as well.  The only other comment I have is that this
    higher cost should be reflected in the yearly dues, not the initiation
    fees, if you want a club to grow and stay active.  It almost seems
    that some clubs might be charging a high initiation fee to keep the
    yearly dues down.  If that's true they may end up with the opposite
    result!
    
    Bill