Conference vmszoo::rc

    Attn: Kay Fisher,
    
    Got the copy of the Berliner-Joyce plans in todays mail.  It looks
    real nice to me and would be a real different, "non" run-of-the-mill
    model on just about any flying field.  The fuse, particularly the
    engine cowling and the fin/rudder looks a whole lot like the Curtiss
    "Hawk" series of pursuit ships and the gull/inverted-gull wing
    junctions of wings to fuse look real slick, though it's hard to
    tell from the plans how much trouble the fairings might be to build.
    They [the fairings] appear to be permanently attached to the fuse
    which seems to indicate plug-in wing panels but, again, it's hard
    to tell on the plan-copy as all the print is reduced too small to
    read.  No, on second look, it looks like the bottom wing attaches
    somewhat conventionally [bolts into threaded hardwood blocks] and
    the top wing is part of a removeable hatch.
    
    Ailerons [top-wing only] should be rather straight forward except
    I don't see how the linkage negotiates the gulled portion of the
    center-section unless nyrod or equivalent is used.  Do you have
    the construction article to go along with the plans??  This would
    make things a bit easier on you when questions arise.  I believe
    the designer, Jack DeVries is the Col. DeVries that John Tavaries
    refers to occasionally so he might be accessible for help, should
    you require it.
    
    What size is the ship?  Only reference I could find was the .40-.60
    engine requirement which, I'd guess'd make it about Aeromaster size
    or a bit larger.  All-in-all, I like it!  It has a unique appearance
    with those gulled wings and a pleasing overall look about it.  And,
    you know what they say; "If it looks right, it'll fly right!"  The
    only part that might be a little "dicey" for a newcomer to scratch-
    building appears to be the cowling but this is all shaped from balsa
    blocks so it won't be as difficult as a glass cowl might be. (I'd
    rather work from blocks anyday.)   I'd say, "Go fer' it!
                                                            
    Attn: John Tavares,
    
    Got the article on Cook's ride in the F-4 Phantom today but haven't
    had a chance to read it as yet...Gracias, amigo!  Looks interesting
    ...what mag did you say the article came from??
    
    Adios,	Al

OK - First to stop the typing contest I will stop calling the plane
a Berliner-Joyce and start calling it just BJ.

I have a convenient 8.5 x 11 copy of the plans that I keep on my desk at work
so if anybody wants a copy just to satisfy their curiosity just send me mail.

Santa (my daughter) gave me the RCM scale plans and the back issue
of RCM with the construction project in it.  I gotta say that you get
a copy of the english part of the magazine article (without the pictures
and drawings) with the plan set.  In this case it would be much more difficult
to build without the matching pictures.

I brought the plans into work and on our cheap copier made
several copies of small pieces of it.  For instance where there
was a RIB that I needed 2 each of I made 4 copies of that RIB.

Tentatively I plan to build 2 at once.  I'm planing to stop at
the hobby shop tonight to get some misc aircraft plywood.

I also want to copy the large plans if I can find a copier capable of it.

I just read the notes from Al Casey and John Tavares about the author
today so I replied to John and he already sent me Col. DeVries address
and phone number.  Attached is the mail I sent to John Tavares fyi:

===========================================================================
------------Mail item #1-----------------------------30-DEC-1987 09:22--------

From:	TALLIS::FISHER       "Battery, Mags, & Gas Off!"
To:	CLOSUS::TAVARES,FISHER
Subj:	Berliner-Joyce and Jack DeVries

Wow - what a surprise to be able to get to the author of the
plans.

Yes - please send his address/number.

I do not intend to actually call him at the moment but do have
a couple of questions/requests that I would like you to pass on to
him.

First please understand that this is my first scratch kit and I am
not very experienced at building and flying RC as this is only my
second year at it and I just don't have much stick time yet.

1.  I would like a copy of any documentation that he has on the 
    plane.  This would save me chasing down some library books just
    to copy out the 4 or 5 pages in each one that reference the plane.

2.  In the construction article he mentioned that the plan does not
    have the same number of ribs that the real plane did so that Monokote
    would cover better.  I would hope that the documentation above
    would be enough to build the wing with the right number of ribs but
    the ribs on the top wing are kinda complex and I'm not sure I could
    just remove a couple and re-space the remainders without messing up
    the airfoil.  Wonder what Jack thinks.

Thanks in advance to John and Jack.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Kay,

You've probably already figgered' it out for yer'self but, if not, I thought you
might be interested to know that the Berliner-Joyce was definitely not a train-
er.  It was, most certainly, a 2-seat pursuit ship based on the following obser-
vations:

# The designation, P-16/P8-1, is a pursuit designation.  Trainers were designa-
ted PT and T (except in the Navy, whose lettering system I've never entirely
figured out).

# The trainee [or instructor] in the back seat would've had a problem learning
much, facing backward as he was.  The swivel-mounted .30 cal. machine gun mount-
ed aft of the rear cockpit reinforces the conclusion that this wasn't a trainer.

# At least one, possibly two, MG's were mounted in the nose; note the gun-trough
just above the exhaust stacks on the plans...again, not S.O.P. for trainers.

# Olive-drab fuse with yellow wing(s) was the standard paint scheme for pursuits
[fighters] from the `30's, on into the early `40's.  "Blue" fuse with yellow 
wing(s) was the standard trainer scheme.  Both utilized the colorful "meatball"
national insignia until early into WW-II when it was changed to avoid confusing
the red ball in the middle of the star with the Japanese national insignia.

In any event, amigo, the proof seems conclusive; you don't have a "school teach-
er" there, you gotcher'self a "bird of prey," a by-Gawd fighter!  I've looked 
the plans over in more depth and some questions have arisen:

* What's the wing-span and what do you plan to use for power?

* What's the little isometric detail drawing [just to the left of the nose in 
the top/bottom-view] trying to show?  

* Is that the CG location just forward of the lead-edge of the bottom-wing?  
(The print's blurry and hard to read on the reduced plan copy you sent me.)
With a little imagination, it appears to be an arrow, pointing to the fuse bot-
tom with the letters "CG" beneath it and the location looks about right to me
for CG.

* I see the former/crutch pieces for the gulled center-section of the top-wing 
[formers "A, B & C"] but find none for the bottom-wing.  Is the center-section 
done differently on the bottom wing?  It almost appears that the bottom-wing's
gulled centersection is carved from balsa block; right/wrong??  If so, I'm not
sure I like this...think I'd use the same technique as the top-wing.

* I notice that the force arrangement is set with the bottom wing zero and the 
top-wing +1-degree.  I'll not argue the designers reason for this but I might
suggest you keep yer' options open to adjust the incidence of either or both
wings should the model turn out to be "snappy/tip-stally."  No stab incidence or
engine offset is shown but I'd assume the stab to be set at zero and would sug-
gest a degree or two of down and right thrust (unless the construction article
recommends something different).

* Did I understand correctly..., that you intend to build "two" of these at 
once?  If so, can I have one??  ;-)  [Only kidding]  Actually, not a bad idea;
you can build two for just a little more that it'd cost for one and you can 
leave the second ship at the final assy. stage while you work the bugs out of 
the first one and establish the ideal force arrangement.  I'd intended to "kit" 
a second MiG-3 as I was building it but didn't do it and I wish, at times, that
I had.

Just one comment after studying the plans further: this bird "could" be a little
squirrely/ground-loopy, especially on hard/paved surfaces.  The landing gear is 
placed "way" farther forward than is usual for good ground-handling.  Rule-of-
thumb would put the axle no more than 1-2" or so ahead of the CG where this
ship has it perhaps as much as 5" forward, judging from the scale in the legend-
block of the plan.  This may prove little problem on grass but, on hard-surface,
watch out.  The tail-skid will be vital to ground-handling in either case so 
build it sturdy and functional.  For this ship, I wouldn't recommend converting
to a tail-"wheel" as the drag from the skid is going to be very important for
keeping the plane rolling straight ahead.  On the good side, nose-overs should 
be almost non-existant!

Again, I like this ship.  While the lines are basically very simple, they're 
also very pleasing, aesthetically, those gulled wing/fuse junctures capping off
the whole impression very nicely.  I don't feel this ship is overly ambitious
for the first-time scratchbuilder...just take yer' time, plan every step, work 
carefully/accurately and try not to paint yer'self into too many corners. (The 
construction article and access to the designer should help a lot in this area.)

Adios and keep us posted as you progress..., good luck,	   Al

>* What's the wing-span and what do you plan to use for power?

I forget exactly - but in the 50-55" range.  I plan to use a 60 two cycle
either a K&B or the OS Black Head Helo I talked about in a previous note.
What ever one goes in the Aeromaster the other one goes in the BJ.

>* What's the little isometric detail drawing [just to the left of the nose in 
>the top/bottom-view] trying to show?  

That is the inside view of the way the sides of the gull wing center section 
meet with the fuzz and the wing mount bolts (which in the case of the top
wing are on the side of the plane.  It looks a tad week to me tho.

>* Is that the CG location just forward of the lead-edge of the bottom-wing?  

Yes

>* I see the former/crutch pieces for the gulled center-section of the top-wing 
>[formers "A, B & C"] but find none for the bottom-wing.  Is the center-section 
>done differently on the bottom wing?  It almost appears that the bottom-wing's
>gulled centersection is carved from balsa block; right/wrong??  If so, I'm not
>sure I like this...think I'd use the same technique as the top-wing.

I haven't figured that out yet.

>* I notice that the force arrangement is set with the bottom wing zero and the 
>top-wing +1-degree.  I'll not argue the designers reason for this but I might
>suggest you keep yer' options open to adjust the incidence of either or both
>wings should the model turn out to be "snappy/tip-stally."  No stab incidence or

I just mailed you a picture that came in the 495th news latter about Bipe wings
and incidence settings and stalls.  In essence it says that you and Tom are
both right and it depends on wither the top wing is forward of the bottom
wing or not.  If the top wing is aft (as in the Beech staggerwing) then top
wing should be negative.  If the top wing is forward then top wing should
be positive.   If top and bottom are not staggered then zero degrees.  The 
pictures are good but of course the real equation would involve several other
factors about the aircraft. So - I plan to built as per plans at +1 degree
for the top wing - BUT - I sure would like to be able to change it later some
how.  Any idea what I could do to make it easy to change?

>engine offset is shown but I'd assume the stab to be set at zero and would sug-
>gest a degree or two of down and right thrust (unless the construction article
>recommends something different).

I plan to mount the engine on a standard mount so I can easily change the
thrust by adding thrust plates.  I have gotten myself into trouble before
tho with this cause 2 degrees on a long engine/mount can raise hell with
the looks of the prop spinner on the cowl.

>* Did I understand correctly..., that you intend to build "two" of these at 
>once?  If so, can I have one??  ;-)  [Only kidding]  Actually, not a bad idea;
>you can build two for just a little more that it'd cost for one and you can 
>leave the second ship at the final assy. stage while you work the bugs out of 
>the first one and establish the ideal force arrangement.  I'd intended to "kit" 
>a second MiG-3 as I was building it but didn't do it and I wish, at times, that
>I had.

That's the plan - but only time will tell.

>Just one comment after studying the plans further: this bird "could" be a little
>squirrely/ground-loopy, especially on hard/paved surfaces.  The landing gear is 

We were watching a P47 training film at work the other day and they showed
an intentional ground loop used to abort a take off - WOW.

I got Don Berliner's address from Dan Snow - so I'll be dropping him a line
soon about documentation.

I stopped by the hobby shop last night to get some plywood and they were 
out of most sizes - next thing you know I was leaving with a Craft-Air
Drifter II Glider under my arm.

When I got home with the Glider the UPS man had just delivered the
Aeromaster Bipe.

It's airplane city in my workshop!  It'll be a real challenge to finish
all my projects before spring.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

>* What's the wing-span and what do you plan to use for power?

55.5 Top, 39.875 Bottom.

>* I see the former/crutch pieces for the gulled center-section of the top-wing 
>[formers "A, B & C"] but find none for the bottom-wing.  Is the center-section 
>done differently on the bottom wing?  It almost appears that the bottom-wing's
>gulled centersection is carved from balsa block; right/wrong??  If so, I'm not
>sure I like this...think I'd use the same technique as the top-wing.

You were right - it is carved from balsa block.

>engine offset is shown but I'd assume the stab to be set at zero and would sug-
>gest a degree or two of down and right thrust (unless the construction article
>recommends something different).

Construction article specifies 2 degrees down and 2 degrees right thrust.

About the designation P-16.  I will quote from the article.

It's 1932 again, and the Army Air Corps has just purchased 26 new airplanes.
But the Big Brass is in a quandry - what to call the new birds?  It it an
observation plane? Or, is it something else?  In typical military fashion they 
called it something else.

Officially, it was the P-16 for a while and then it became the PB-1 (for 
Pursuit-Biplane).  Berliner-Joyce was the manufacturer of the double-gulled
wing craft.  Powered by a 600 H.P., V-1570 C engine, the prototype had a top
speed of from 170 to 185 mph.  Three machine guns (two .30 caliber, synchronized
and firing forward, a .30 caliber on a flexible mount, firing aft), two 122 
pound bombs or five 25 pound bombs make up its armament.  The flying weight
with two crewmen aboard, was a heavy (for the era) 4209 pounds.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    If it were me, I think I'd construct the bottom wing center-section
    similar to the top, that is, make a coupla' 1/8" ply formers/crutches
    to the gull shape, then balsa block fill and carve/sand to shape.
    Plain balsa block seems a little fragile to me, particularly consider-
    ing that the bottom wing will take the most abuse in the event of
    ground-looping, tip-dragging, etc. 
    
    BTW, the method of attaching the wing-panels to the gulled center
    sections could probably be readily adapted to adjustable incidence
    if they were made such that the panels were bolted [rather than
    permanently glued] to the center-section.  That way, yer' bases'd
    be covered if the force arrangement needed some fine-tuning.  
    
    Adios,	Al

>    If it were me, I think I'd construct the bottom wing center-section
>    similar to the top, that is, make a coupla' 1/8" ply formers/crutches
>    to the gull shape, then balsa block fill and carve/sand to shape.
>    Plain balsa block seems a little fragile to me, particularly consider-
>    ing that the bottom wing will take the most abuse in the event of
>    ground-looping, tip-dragging, etc. 

Actually I'm not convinced that the top wing is more secure than the bottom
wing.  I want to actually get to that step before I have a firm opinion.
    
>    BTW, the method of attaching the wing-panels to the gulled center
>    sections could probably be readily adapted to adjustable incidence
>    if they were made such that the panels were bolted [rather than
>    permanently glued] to the center-section.  That way, yer' bases'd
>    be covered if the force arrangement needed some fine-tuning.  

Anxious to here your reply on this matter after you receive the club
news letter that I recently sent you.  Probably in the trimming note.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Got all the plywood this weekend.
Stopped in the local library and tried to find some documentation.
Nothing yet - but I stumbled accross Al Caseys next plane.
Since Al likes challenging Russian planes how about a Biplane fighter
that the bottom wings retract up into the top wing.  Don't worry
Al I sent you a copy of the documentation.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Kay,

I don't recall the name of the bird but I've seen the Ruskie bipe that retracts
the lower wing  after takeoff.  Yeah! It'd be interesting and would, no doubt, 
be quite impressive [if the wing retraction was functional] and score well in 
competition.  But, "No Thanx!"  Too much gadgetry for "this" cowboy!

BTW, did you [or other noters] know there was an experimental biplane version of
the Hawker Hurricane?  I expect the motivation was similar to the Russians', 
that of having extra lift to takeoff at heavily loaded combat weights, then, 
once safely in flight, being able to convert to the much more efficient mono-
plane configuration.  While the Russian scheme was to retract the lower wing,
the bipe-Hurricane was designed to jettison the top wing in flight using explo-
sive squibs.  Of course, this meant losing the top wing every time this was done
which was rather impractical and the idea was scrapped after initial flight tes-
ting.

Adios,	Al

I had copied the plans in several little pieces on the local copier so I had
several 8.5 x 11 size copies of ribs etc.  Last night I played paper dolls
for a couple of hours and cut them all out and rubber cemented them to the
plywood.  I know the copier doesn't reproduce exactly 100% but I'm sure it
is close enough for government work.

Well - it wasn't much - but it was progress.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    re -2
    
    This would really be a great point getter!   Imagine the judges'
    faces when you jetison the top wing and keep flying.  You might
    get tired of building replacements if they were not recoverable,
    though.  I bet the company that designed that plane saw a good profit
    in supplying a bunch of extra wing sets for each copy they sold.
    Sort of like the razor companies giving away free razors so that
    they can sell you a bunch of replaceable blades.
    
    

    Kay,
    
    The drawings and blurb on the Russian IS-1 and IS-2 retractable
    wing biplane arrived today and it was, indeed, the one I remembered.
    Whatta' show stopper "that one" could be if it were feasible to
    rig the complicated wing retraction feature.  To further somplicate
    things, as if engineering the wing to retract and fold into the
    fuse sides and the bottom of the upper wing weren't enough, the
    main gear retracts into the bottom wing as well...whatta' hellacious
    nightmare it'd be!!!
    
    I'll pass, thanx, but I hope "someone" models it one day.  Adios,	Al

I cut the ribs out of plywood.  I haven't put the spar notches in them yet.
and some (most) of the ribs are to be balsa to I have to use the plywood
one for a pattern for the real rib.  I found that I was able to get the
cut so close on the scroll saw that there is little need for sanding.
I'm waiting for a trip to the hardware store for bolts for my radial arm
table before I sand on it.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Re: _.9..., Kay,
    
    Were you aware that you don't have to "play paper dolls" and cut
    out all yer' Xeroxed patterns?  A commonly used technique for scratch-
    building is to Xerox all the former/rib/etc. patterns [as you did]
    but, from there, the technique differs entirely.
    
    Borrow Momma's iron and try this: align the pattern, print side
    down, on the balsa/ply/whatever and "iron" the image directly onto
    the material.  The toner on a Xerox [or other dry-process copier]
    copy is a balck thermo-plastic, i.e. the toner image is fused onto
    the paper by virtue of heat melting the plastic toner.  By ironing
    the backside of the Xeroxed pattern, the image is melted and trans-
    ferred directly onto the wood, just like the old Comet kits where
    the parts were printed on the wood and the cutting-out was left
    for the builder.  This saves all that time consuming cutting and
    tracing yer' going through.       
    
    The copy should be as dark [more toner] as possible for best results
    and if several parts must be made from the same pattern, run several
    copies of the part as the image will only transfer a coupla' times
    before there isn't enough toner left on the paper for the process
    to work.  Try this thecnique and let us know how slick you think
    it works.
    
    On distortion, a Xerox-type copier, typically, increases the size
    of the copy by 2-to-4%, i.e the copy will be 102-to-104% of the
    original.  Also, this intentional magnification is not necessarily
    linear; the percent of error may be slightly more lengthwise than
    it is widthwise.  We're talking very minimal amounts of distortion
    here, probably no more than was realized when the plan was printed,
    and I guarantee it cannot be seen in the finished model.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al                      
    
    P.S.  If yer' wondering where I got my information, I was a Field
    Service Engineer with Xerox for nearly 13-years so you can take this
    info as gospel.      

>    Were you aware that you don't have to "play paper dolls" and cut
>    out all yer' Xeroxed patterns?  A commonly used technique for scratch-
>    building is to Xerox all the former/rib/etc. patterns [as you did]
>    but, from there, the technique differs entirely.
>    
>    Borrow Momma's iron and try this: align the pattern, print side
...
Rats - I had forgot all about that technique.  Next winter.
Busy now building the Drifter, Big Stick 20, Aeromaster Bipe and BJ.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

I received my first requested documentation source from the DEC library
thru the inter library loan system.  It was a very nice book about old
aircraft but the section on the BJ was small and disappointing.  

I was at least hoping that it would contain references to other material
but it didn't.  I still have another book coming and Tom Tenerowicz called
the other day with several references.

I'd planned to learn to paint on other models before the BJ so this weekend
I sprayed K&B Poxy primer on my Drifter II glider.  Wow - good thing as I 
discovered I have a lot to learn about spraying...

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Hey, Kay!  

Where's the "Fisher-man" been lately?  Haven't heard much from ya' recently.
You must be sequestered in the shop stackin'-and-gluin' on the BJ project, 
right?  On yer' quest for documentation, let me steer you to the local book-
store...they frequently have books covering various periods/eras of aviation
history like the many "Janes" books.  Look for anything covering U.S. military 
aircraft of the 20's-30's and check the indexes for anything on the BJ.  Fail-
ing that, about the next best course is to look through catalogs for the various
aviation book publishing houses like Zenith Aviation Books or any of the varied
houses frequently advertised in the model mags.  This is a little risky as the
book(s) you buy covering the desired period may, or may not, contain material
on the BJ but, on the other hand, the books make great additions to yer, doc-
umentation library and make for interesting reading in any case.

> I'd planned to learn to paint on other models before the BJ so this weekend
> I sprayed K&B Poxy primer on my Drifter II glider.  Wow - good thing as I 
> discovered I have a lot to learn about spraying...

Spraying primer with an airbrush is a slightly different animal, alright.  It
must be thinned considerably, owing to the high filler content, and this, of 
course, obviates the need for additional sprayed coats.  Actually, I prefer to 
brush the first coat of primer to get maximum filling of grain, weave, etc. and,
after sanding it virtually all off, spraying the subsequent coat(s).  On a lar-
ger airframe, the airbrush is almost inadequate to the task, a touch-up gun
[which I use] or a full size gun being preferrable to the task.  It "can" be
done with the airbrush [I did it for years] but the larger gun is really the
way to go, reserving the airbrush for the easier task of applying color(s).
Various makes of touch-up guns can be had for as little as $35-40 through most
of the mail-order houses.

Adios,	Al

>Hey, Kay!  
>
>Where's the "Fisher-man" been lately?  Haven't heard much from ya' recently.
>You must be sequestered in the shop stackin'-and-gluin' on the BJ project, 
>right?  On yer' quest for documentation, let me steer you to the local book-

Well - I have been working on a Drifter II - only need to add the clear coat
now.  Saturday Kevin and I went flying (should have went Sunday).  It was cold
and very windy.  Got the engine (OS FS .61) running right finally.  Did a dead
stick into a tree (the wind helped).  Sitting in the top of the tree with no
visible damage.  Just prior to my tree landing I was telling Kevin that I have
to auction this lead sled off cause it's so grossly over weight from all the
repairs.  I had to go home and get some ropes to throw up into the tree.
After a couple of hours of fiddling around we managed to shake the tree enough
to free the Black Baron Special.  Kevin dived to catch it amongst all the 
falling branches and noise.  It beat him to the snow and broke in half.
It was repairable but only after another several ounces of epoxy.  So I spent
Sunday stripping out the radio, engine and salvageable parts.

Saturday morning I finish searching our local library for BJ material.  Just 
asked our librarian to do a bibliographical search for me.  Probably won't
accomplished a lot this month - there are 3 RC auctions (one tomorrow in
Chelmsford), two family birthdays, tax forms to fill out, basement to carpet,
etc.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Tom Tenerowicz advised me about several documentation sources.

1.  American Aircraft Modeler had a 3 view in 1968 (What month)?
    If anybody has that issue I would sure appreciate getting a copy
    of that article.  Tom did you have the month or issue number
    I may have missed it in our phone conversation?

2.  RCM 12/74 - I already obtained that back issue from RCM directly.

3.  Flying Aces 35/37.  Gee now that it has been a week since we talked
    I don't know what 35/37 means - any translators?

========================================================================
Then he pointed out several other sources of documentation available
commercially:

1.  Hirsch Plans (Really Drawings) at (714) 828-7369

	I called and a lady with a German accent answered.
	When I asked if they had documentation for a Berliner-Joyce
	she explained that she was from Germany and couldn't understand
	what I was asking for.  But she told me in very good English?
	Eventually somebodies son (Mr. Hirsch maybe) got on the phone and
	said that he works and I should call after 7:00 PM.  So I attempted
	to tell him that I was on the East Coast and it would be easier If
	I could catch him before he left for work in the morning.  Then the
	kid started trying to figure out what time that would be on the East
	Coast.  Eventually he said that he (Mr. Hirsch I think) would probably
	be available from 7:00 to 7:15 tomorrow morning.

2.  Scale Plans and Photo Service at (919)292-5239
    3209 Madison
    Greensboro, N.C. 27403

	They have only 20 or so plans and an enlarging service.
        They only had rubber plans for the BJ and no pictures but had
	three views available for $2.00
   	The lady that answered the phone know what a Berliner-Joyce was
	right away tho.  If they have pictures they vary in price at approx
	$1.50 per picture.  Some packs are of 18 pictures some of only 4 or 5.
	A catalog is available for $3.00

3.  Repla-Tech International at (503)822-3280
    48500 McKenzie Hwy.
    Vida, Oregon 97488

	I called several times and just get ringing.
	I called information and they didn't have a listing for Repla-Tech.
	I have their add in front of me - but it doesn't include the phone
	number which I got over the phone from Tom T.

4.  Scale Model Research (Bob Banka) at (714)979-8058
    2334 Ticonderoga Way
    Costa Mesa, CA 92626

	I called and got a recording.  The guys voice on the recording
	sounded so much like Tom T. - that I thought at first I was
	being put on.

====================================================================
I also am trying to get the 1931 edition of Aircraft Yearbook and Jane's
All the World's Aircraft thru the inter-library loan system.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

>1.  Hirsch Plans (Really Drawings) at (714) 828-7369
>
>	I called and a lady with a German accent answered.
>	When I asked if they had documentation for a Berliner-Joyce
>	she explained that she was from Germany and couldn't understand
>	what I was asking for.  But she told me in very good English?
>	Eventually somebodies son (Mr. Hirsch maybe) got on the phone and
>	said that he works and I should call after 7:00 PM.  So I attempted
>	to tell him that I was on the East Coast and it would be easier If
>	I could catch him before he left for work in the morning.  Then the
>	kid started trying to figure out what time that would be on the East
>	Coast.  Eventually he said that he (Mr. Hirsch I think) would probably
>	be available from 7:00 to 7:15 tomorrow morning.

I finally got Mr. Hirsch (Bruce I think) on the phone.  I called him one
morning at 9:00 (6:00 AM his time).  He explained that he specialized
in Racing planes but he checked a couple of sources he had while I was
on the phone and found that there are definitely no BJs in museums.
He talked me into sending $1.00 for a catalog - he spent a long time
trying to convince me I would be interested.  Well it arrived the other
day and the guy managed to find several pictures and a short article
about the BJ P-16 and some other model BJ models that I'm not presently
interested in.  Plus his catalog was well worth $1.00.  Especially if I
ever attempt the Jeep again.

On one BJ (Proto 1 I think) there is an Arrow Head with an Indian head on it.
This rings a bell.  Al - didn't you do some nose art like that?  Wasn't
that from some specific squadron that one of you guys knows about?  There
is a huge (Maybe the size of a 55 gallon drum) bubble under the plane just
forward of the bottom wing and just aft of the landing gear struts.  I
understand that Proto #1 was the only one with a Turbo Charger.  Could 
this be it?  I'm confused because I wouldn't expect squadron insignias
on the proto.

>2.  Scale Plans and Photo Service at (919)292-5239
>    3209 Madison
>    Greensboro, N.C. 27403
>
>	They have only 20 or so plans and an enlarging service.
>        They only had rubber plans for the BJ and no pictures but had
>	three views available for $2.00
>   	The lady that answered the phone know what a Berliner-Joyce was
>	right away tho.  If they have pictures they vary in price at approx
>	$1.50 per picture.  Some packs are of 18 pictures some of only 4 or 5.
>	A catalog is available for $3.00

Got the three views from this service - cheap copies of an existing 
8.5 x 11 copy.

I also am trying to get the 1931 edition of Aircraft Yearbook and Jane's
All the World's Aircraft thru the inter-library loan system.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    The Indianhead nose art I did was the personal insignia of [then]
    Lt Frank Klibbe who used it on the nose of his P-47 razorback named
    "Little Chief."  BTW, I've met retired Col. Kilbbe and he's one
    helluva guy...lives in Denver nowadays.
    
    I've seen pictureos of the insignia you describe, probably in the
    newsletter I used to receive as a member of the Air Force Museum
    at Dayton, Ohio [another excellent source of documentation].  The
    insignia was that of the thus-and-such pursuit squadron and you
    correctly assume that a prototype wouldn't have been assigned to
    squadron duty.  Without seeing the pic, I couldn't guess what the
    "bubble" you refer to was.  Almost sounds like a fairing to house
    something or other but superchargers of the period were usually
    mounted in the open on the side of the nose so I doubt that's what
    it was.
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    	Could it be a radiator? Quite a few plane of that period
    used water cooler power plants.
    
    						Tom

Tom and Al - Aha - I have peeked your interest.

I just mailed each of you a picture.

This is the only picture of the P-16 that I've seen with the 
Indian in the arrow head and the lump in the belly.

Since I know that only the proto had a supercharger I thought 
that is what is was but as Al agrees protos usually don't have
squadron markings.  However in those days they frequently would
bring the proto(s) up to rev and sell them to the service.  In
the case where it has the only supercharger - I would guess that
they would leave it on.  In that case it is possible that the 
proto saw active service (although no combat).

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Re: .-1, Kay,
    
    The 3-view arrived today and it's still a little difficult to come
    up with much more than a S.W.A.G. as to what the bulbous pod on
    the belly of the fuse is.
    
    However, it can't be a turbo-supercharger as there is no connection
    from the engine exhaust to the pod.  Indeed, the exhaust stacks
    are plainly visible as standars stub-stacks exhausting directly
    into open atmosphere.
    
    My guess si that it's an auxilliary fuel tank.  It appears to be
    attached by a pair of straps and something that "could" be a filler
    cap appears on the lower front of the pod/tank.
    
    This style/shape aux tank was in common use in the 30's so that's
    what I'm surmising this is.
    
    Adios,	Al

>< Note 417.25 by MAUDIB::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
...
>    My guess si that it's an auxilliary fuel tank.  It appears to be
>    attached by a pair of straps and something that "could" be a filler
>    cap appears on the lower front of the pod/tank.
>    
>    This style/shape aux tank was in common use in the 30's so that's
>    what I'm surmising this is.
...
Great - gee - I wonder if that scale aux fuel tank is large enough to double
as a camera pod?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Bet you think I forget about the P16.

I wrote to Jack DeVries and Don Berliner for pointers to documentation.
Don Berliner replied within a week and had no help but pointed to the
Smithsonian.

Jack has yet to answer - perhaps he is busy or on vacation.

I called World War I Aeroplanes, Inc
         15 Crescent Road
	 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 (914)473-3679

They are producing two new magazines:
	WW-1 Aero (The Journal of the early aeroplane)
	Skyways (The journal of the airplane 1920-1940)

The guy said they had a flight report on the Berliner-Joyce P16 in their
first issue.  So I ordered one.

They used to be $4.00 for reprints but they are out now (as if a few
weeks ago) so it cost $12 - sigh.

Well I got the magazine last night.  The BJ coverage was only 2 pages
but the information booklet that they sent along about old planes
was something else.

I don't exactly know how to describe it but I would say it is a bonanza
for someone looking for scale documentation.  But I'll take the easy
way out here.  A copy is in the DECmail to Al Casey and he will describe it.

Anyway - the only thing I have done on the BJ so far is cut out rib templates
and it looks like I will have to redo that.  My documentation doesn't match
the plans as regards the ailerons.  Also according to the flight report
I just received the airfoil in the plans is also wrong.  I'm about ready
to start building - BUT - I have to do some emergency glider repair - 
it seems that most of the front of the Drifter II's fuselage is missing.

P.S.  Al - I also sent you a copy of the BJ doc.  I don't understand the areas
that I highlighted - perhaps you can help.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay, 
    
    Gracias fer' sending the Rat a copy of the documentation booklet
    and, yes, I'll be tickled to try to answer yer' documentation questions
    on the BJ as soon as the material arrives.  The differences yer'
    running into may well be concessions to scale made by the designer
    to enhance flyability/performance as a model.  Unless you want a
    museum-class model and/or the deviations are gross/obvious, you
    might be well advised to build the BJ per the plans.
    
    Just a thought:  I can't make any commitments for him, of course,
    but maybe John Tavares can help you make contact with Col. DeVries
    as [I believe] they're members of the same culb in Colo. Spgs.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    on the BJ as soon as the material arrives.  The differences yer'
>    running into may well be concessions to scale made by the designer
>    to enhance flyability/performance as a model.  Unless you want a
>    museum-class model and/or the deviations are gross/obvious, you
>    might be well advised to build the BJ per the plans.

The airfoil is documented as a Clark Y.  The plans have an undercamber
for increased lift at high altitudes so I should be able to just make
it flat with no consequence.  The number of ribs were wrong - supposedly
to make it easier to MonoKote.  The Ailerons were straight instead
of wedge shaped - I assume that was just to make it easier to build.
Those look like I could change with no harmful side effects.

The top wing incidence is +1 degree on the plans and +2 degrees in the
documentation - Hmmmmmmmm.  Judges will never see that.

I asked Jack about the Ailerons - could be there was a variant that had
the Ailerons straight - as you are about to read the proto had a problem
with aileron flutter.  I don't know if my 3 views are of the Proto or not.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    The B-J material arrived today.  As to the highlighted areas you
    said you needeD help understanding:
    
    1.) "Stagger 41 in.  Gap--56 3/4 in."   This means the distance from
    a perpendicular dropped from the leading-edge of the upper wing 
    to the leading-edge of the lower wing is 41".  In other words, the
    upper wing is 'staggered' 41" ahead of the lower wing.  The distance  
    measured between the under-surface of the top-wing and the upper-
    surface of the bottom-wing is 56 3/4", the "gap" between the two
    wings.
    
    2.) Re: the horizontal stabilizer specs; "Range, Deg.--2 - -4."
    I believe this indicates that the horizontal stab is trimmable
    from  positive 2-to-negative 4-degrees.  Since the wing-incidence
    is shown as +2 degrees for both wings, the resulting decolage could
    be adjusted (by means of altering stab-incidence) from zero to -6
    degrees.  Zero decolage would indicate neutral-trim while any amount
    of negative decolage (in this instance) would indicate a proportionate
    amount of "up-elevator" trim.
    
    The fairing on the bottom of the fuse, while not directly spoken to,
    could be the 9.7 gal. Prestone (coolant) tank or [more likely] the 
    13.5 gal oil tank/cooler.
    
    I'm not sure what the funny apurtenance attached to the left-upper
    wingtip is.  I don't believe it's a flaw in the photo.  It almost
    appears that it projets above, as well as below the tip in an
    elongated-diamond shape.  It's possible this could've been some
    kinda' attitudinal reference/indicator device, something on the 
    order of the diamond-shaped attitude-matrix/grid device attached
    to the wingtip or scribed/layed-out with drafting tape on the in-
    side of the canopy of most full-scale aerobatic ships. Just a S.W.A.G.  
                                                                          
    Lemme; know if you turn up more questions.  I can't promise I'll
    have the answer(s) but I'll sure give 'er a whirl.
    
      |                                              
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Kay, I talked briefly with John DeVries last night at the club
meeting.  He said that the Berliner was in his opinion the best
flying of all his designs.  He also said that he knew of a good
source of scale documentation.  If you want to talk to him, and
he said that he'd be glad to hear from you, contact me offline.
He is home all day, so he should be easy to reach.

    Kay,
    
    BTW, you never commented on the documentation questions I attempted
    to answer for you...did the answers make sense to you??  Any other
    questions???    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    BTW, you never commented on the documentation questions I attempted
>    to answer for you...did the answers make sense to you??  Any other
>    questions???    

All answers were understood.  Sorry for the lack of feedback.
I appreciate you taking the time to look them over for me.

As per John Tavares's response I just called John DeVries at home.
Nice guy and he talked about the BJ with great fondness.  Said it flew
just like an Aeromaster.  He didn't have any good documentation to add
but gave me a couple of pointers to check out further.

Seems there was a plan published in Model Builder magazine by Pete
Westburg that was very nice.  Also he said that Whilean(sp) Books has
a book about 1920s and 1030s bombs.  Anybody know where this place is
and/or how to spell or find it?

Here's one for you Al - John says that the fuel tank is the same one
used on the Curtis P6E Hawk.

Also there is a Bob Morris kit available and he suggested I contact 
Bob for any documentation.

John also has never seen a picture of the BJ with bombs on board
so we have no idea where the hard points are.

All and all for a second scale kit and my first scratch build I think
I have enough documentation and can't wait to start building.  Just have
to fix two gliders first and stop crashing the "Pale Peril".

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Glad you had a chance to talk with him.  I guess I misunderstood
him when I heard him say that he had some documentation -- He
must've been talking about those two books.  Do you know the
issue of MB that has the article?  We may be able to dig it up
out here in computer land. 

Keep the news coming

Well I finally got started.  Got the plans for Christmas.
Went to start the fuselage sides and they wanted 2 each 1/8 x 6 x 48
balsa or 6 each 1/8 X 3 X 36 balsa for the sides.  Couldn't find
6 inch wide stuff and I only got 2 each 3 inch wide with my box of balsa
so I stopped in D&O Hobbies (That is the new hobby shop in Chelmsford).

The hobby shop is close to useless for airplane stuff but they have a
brand new box of Midwest brand balsa and because it is new it is fully
stocked.  Got some nice 1/8 x 4 x 36 pieces.  They were probably
miss-marked cause the 4 inch wide pieces were $1.50 and the 3 inch wide
were $1.50 also so I got 12 of the 4 inch wide ones.  After zapping
the pieces together last night I ended up with 5 extra pieces.

Anyway - it is a start.  Oh yeah - I am doing two of everything.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished the fuselage sides last night.  Epoxied 1/16 plywood doublers
on each and then cut thru them in order to bend the nose.  Left fuse
halves curing at 90 degree angles to the bottom ply and balsa blocks.

I called Model Builder Magazine and they published a plan for a BJ in
1978 that covered two issues.  6 Sheets and the plan cost $20.00.

I ordered the two back issues and their price list of plans.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I finished the fire walls and motor mounts and put most of the fuselage
cross braces in. This is a very strange construction of a fuselage.  It
has balsa sides with ply doublers but only 1/4 x 1/4 cross braces in
the aft section. Since the original plane had a cloth aft section in
the plans you glue 1/4 x 1/8 stringers on the top of the balsa sides
and cover them with cloth.  Looks like an area that I could drill lots
of lightening holes and not lose any strength.

Anyway - it's (the're) starting to look like an airplane.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    RE: .23-.25
    
    Hi Kay,
    Thought I'd confirm the guess that the bump on the bottom is and
    auxillary fuel tank. I stopped by my friend Cam's for lunch today
    and he showed me the NASM video disk one he finally recieved. Among
    the multi-page listing for whats on the disk was this:
    
    SUBJECT	   			SEARCH #
    Berliner Joyce			9397-9447
    Berliner Joyce Helicopter 1920	9448-9456
    Berliner Joyce Helicopter 1922-25   9457-9479
    Berliner Joyce BJ Cabin Monoplane	9480-9485
    Berliner Joyce CM4 1928//OX-5 eng	9486-9495
    Berliner Joyce FJ1/FJ2 Fighter	9496-9508
    Berliner Joyce OJ-1/-2/-3		9509-9523
    Berliner Joyce P16/P81 Pursuit	9524-9582
    Berliner Joyce XF20-1		9583-9589
    Berliner Joyce XF30-1		9590-9595
    
    We took a look and found all sorts of neat pictures of the P16.
    One notable one was of the instrument panel. There were another
    two that showed this funny bump under the bottom wing. The writing
    on the photos identifies it as an auxillary fuel tank. Another photo
    shows just the tank sitting on the ground. If your interested you
    can order copies of the video frames from the NASM. The guy to get
    a hold of is:
    Larry Wilson - Info. Management Division.
    202-357-3133
    
    Dan Eaton

re -.1 Thanks for the pointer.

Interestingly enough I just received two back issues of Model Builder
Magazine from 1978.  Wow what great detailed drawings and several
good pictures. 

Also I have been working on the BJ - still working on the balsa filler
blocks on the top gull wing section.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

>    Hi Kay,
>    Thought I'd confirm the guess that the bump on the bottom is and
>    auxillary fuel tank. I stopped by my friend Cam's for lunch today
>    and he showed me the NASM video disk one he finally recieved. Among
>    the multi-page listing for whats on the disk was this:
...    
    Berliner Joyce P16/P81 Pursuit	9524-9582
>    Larry Wilson - Info. Management Division.
>    202-357-3133
>    
>    Dan Eaton

Just called Larry Wilson - nice guy.
They have 60 photos on volume 1, 45 photos on volume II, and some on
volume 3.

They want $10.00 each for 8x10 black and white ($1,100.00) if I wanted
them all!

They will print up Zerox quality 3x5 pictures for approx $0.25 each.

I think I may try to get there for thanksgiving?

Does your friend Cam have any method of making hard copies of any pictures?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Re:417.41
    
    Hi Kay,
    The best we could come up with for making hard copies off of the
    disk would be to take a picture of the monitor screen. We did think
    of an alternative to that though. We could take a blank VCR tape
    and record a half minute or so of each picture along with the frame
    number. That would let you take a look at what's available on the
    disk. From that you could try the picture route, or order an 8x10
    for something important, or the 3x5 for less important details.
    The only rub is that I can't get this done between now and when
    I leave for Boston Sunday. If you're interested and patient, I can
    do it after I get back and either send the tape by goat mail or
    else bring the tape with me when I return to Boston in late November.
    
    Dan Eaton

Well - I send a video tape to Dan Eaton and I might get to DC over
Thanksgiving but I'm rapidly approaching the point of having too much
documentation.  Not a good documentation package mind you but just
enough variants to drive you nuts.

Since Halloween is a big deal at our house I may as well document any
progress as I will not be allowed to touch airplanes over the weekend.

I sheeted the nose and cockpit areas.  Added stringers and doublers to
the sides and sanded like mad.  Cut loose the top gull wing section 
(for those who were at the DECRCM meeting that means the tentacles are
now free).  Still need to carve a nose block and lots of carving and
sanding will be required on the top gull wing sections.  But all in all
it looks like a real fuselage now.  

Sure am glad I decided to build two in parallel - its a great feeling
leaving the two fuselages setting on the work bench side by side.

John DeVries does design the fuselage strong.  Depending on balance
I will be able to drill several holes in the aft section without loosing
any strength.


Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Not much left to do as far as construction the fuselage.  Finished the
first pass at the nose blocks and put the main landing gear on yesterday.

Unfortunately I want to pull them off and redo it with less radius bends
in the gear (gotta get one of those Harry Higley wire bending jigs) and
change the diameter of the piano wire.  1/8" mains are OK but the 3/32"
supports are too flimsy and 1/8" is too big.  I cut and bent as per the
picture on the plans and when I went to install my wheel the axle wasn't
long enough.  Looking again at the plans it clearly states to cut the
length required to fit "Your Wheels" - sigh.

So even tho I may rework the gear I had one setting on wheels last night.
Next is the tail wheel (actually a tail stick) assembly.  A lot of copper
tubing and bends and soldering.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Oh - I forgot to mention.  I volunteered to drive the family to visit
my wife's sister and family over Thanksgiving.  

Doesn't sound exciting so far right!  Won't be much for me to
do down there so guess I just wonder over to the Smithsonian National
Air and Space Museum where I talked to a guy about going up to the
forth floor library and look at Berliner-Joyce P16 pictures and 
documentation.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Back from Washington D.C.

Spent one day at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum and a couple
of hours at the AMA Museum.  At the Smithsonian I went to the 3rd floor
library and looked at all the Berliner Joyce Pictures they had on file
on video disks and selected one for an 8x10.  Didn't find anything startling
which makes since because it would appear that all previous articles about
the BJ were making use of the same sources.  

A bit of advice however - if you ever go take your camera bag.  They were
willing to set me up with a nice copy stand in a special room so I could
take my own pictures of the masters and save the $10.00 charge and 4-6 week
delay of having they get a picture for you.

Very nice people and very helpful.  They didn't appear to have a whole lot of
books available so you should not expect a whole lot other then the photo
archives and misc documentation that they keep on file.  For instance I looked
thru the photo archive for a Nikitin-Serchenko IS-1 or IS-2 and only found
one picture - which I already had.  I also have a good 3 view from the same
source and they didn't have that.  Also I looked up the staggerwing Beech
and found several pictures - but none great and they have a nice staggerwing
handing in the Museum downstairs.  Would have been interested in a photo pack
of the one they have on display.  I suppose that if I had asked there was
probably a lot more information available on the staggerwing downstairs but
I was just poking around.

BUT - where else in the world can you find a book shelf with ALL the 
Janes Aircraft books lined up in order.

About the AMA Museum.  It was much smaller than you would imagine - about
the size of the LTN1 lobby.  The aircraft are not maintained that well.
Lots are suspended from the ceiling and the air conditioner system blows
them around and wing tips have ripped MonoKote on other planes.  Most folks
visiting were spending most of their time watching videos in a corner.

They had a Commodore 64 with the Bill Brown aircraft and helicopter
simulator setup.  I spent some time with that.  I was able to take off
and land (both aircraft and helicopter) but had a hard time with orientation
after I was up or out a ways.  Also I had lots of crashes and racked up
several hundred dollars of damage.  The video quality was poor but much
of that can be attributed to the CPU.  I doubt if it would be much better
on an IBM however because I don't see it being advertised as supporting
EGA or VGA graphic interfaces.  The nice part is the RC transmitter like
control box with two sticks and trim that comes with the package.

If you have a PC and you don't already fly or haven't flown much then I
guess I would have to agree with there advertising that the money you
spend on the flight simulator (about 115) would save you money on the
damage you would have inflicted on your own aircraft.  

Don't expect great graphics and it isn't great fun - but it is STICK TIME.

Almost finished the fuselage on the BJ - may start work on the top wing tonight.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I started drawing out the rib patterns on the balsa last night.

The problem is the plans I'm following show 14 ribs on each half
of the top wing.  The 3 view shows 25.  Also the shape of the ailerons
is way off on the plans so I will build with 25 ribs and correct ailerons.

Now the plans call for 3/32" thick ribs and I figured I could use thinner
ones but 1/8" ribs felt too wimpy to work with.  I could always cut a
significant section out of the center of each and lighten them so I
plan to buy 12 more sheets of 3/32x3x36 balsa for the ribs (8 wing halves
cause I'm building two planes).  Anybody have any opinions about rib thickness?

Placement of the ribs is not linear so I blew up the 3 view today on the
copier until I got it to full size (taping sections together) so I could
use it as a template for rib placement.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    re rib thickness...
    
    The Nieuport kit uses very thin ribs with cap strips added for strength
    and bonding surface for the covering.
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    I'm certainly no expert in this area, but I'd think that 1/16" ribs
    with capstrips would be stronger than 3/32" ribs and no capstrips.

    No matter which thickness you use for the ribs, I think it's well
    worth the time and bother to add capstrips.  The increased strength
    is amazing.

                                    - Dan Miner

    In my experience I've found that ribs do one think,  They hold the
    top and the bottom sheeting/covering apart from each other. If the
    intent is to add scale rib spacing I'd opt to go with 1/16 inch
    ribs. They'll be strong enough. Remember that your almost doubling
    the number of ribs and adding weight in the process.
    
    
    Tom

Well - I cut out 168 ribs - drilled jig holes - mounted them on the jig
and sanded them till they looked great.  Then I compared the completed
ribs with the master templates and saw that I had sanded them down
way way to much.  So started cutting new ribs again last night - sigh.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished one of the bottom wings (both port and starboard) and started
the other bottom wing last night.  Getting a little side tracked because
of my new flight box.  Can't seem to find straight bass wood or spruce
spars so thinking about laminating a couple of thin balsa sticks together
with Dan Parson's .6 ounce cloth in the middle - any opinions?  This would
be for the top wing.  The plans call for balsa spars but I put spruce 
in the first bottom wing and balsa in the second bottom wing.

I sheeted the bottom tip of the bottom wing completely and will glass it real
thick for wear and tear in ground loops.  Worked great on the Aeromaster.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Forgot to mention.  I received my 8x10 Black and White from the Smithsonian
last night.  It took 4 weeks.  Quality was OK.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Well - I haven't given up yet.
I hope to get it flown and ready to take to the Spring Scale Fun Fly
in Phoenix on 17-Mar-1989.

I had sent a copy of my documentation packet to Al Casey which
he critiqued for me.  Nice job Al - looks like I have a lot of 
paper work.  Only confusing thing was the part about the paint
chips - perhaps you could elaborate on the "everybody does it"
in the "So you wanna build scale note".

I finished all the bottom wings (4 halfs) and started working on
the center bottom gull wing section last night by laminating 1x3x9
balsa blocks to 1/8x3x9.  Tomorrow night I should laminate them
to each other.  Trying to build a 1&1/8 x 5 x 9 block which I will
then epoxy bottom wings to and then carve into a gull wing shape.

Sunday I took by landing gear off and redone them better.
Great English huh?  Then I started forming the tail skid.
I cut a 1/16 piece of music wire and bent one end then slipped
a brass tube over it and bent the other end.  Then I drilled holes
in the tail of each plane to match.  Then I put it aside till last night.

Last night I looked at the Tail skid and figured it wouldn't work out so
I cut the music wire off the ends of them to save the brass tubing for
my next attempt.  I made new music wire brackets and at each end I put
the movable (via wheel collar) aileron brackets.  Seemed like a good
idea at the time but after I finished both brackets it was obvious that
it would not look scale.  So I cut them apart and started over again.
I ended up recreating a bracket exactly like my first attempt.  Then I soldered
two brass tubes to the vertical bracket and put music wire inside them and
soldered them together.  I left springs out and may regret that after the
tar at Orange gets at them.  It was interesting that my Dremel cutting wheel
has cut many music wires and although slow shows no wear.  Last night after
several cuts the cutting wheel was wore out.  Seems that the brass is much
harder on the wheel than the steel even tho it seems to cut thru it like
butter.  At any rate the tail skids are done and I just have to epoxy them
in.

Tonight is the DECRCM meeting - hope to see some of you there.
I'm bringing something for show and tell that you will want to buy so warn
your wife - tonight will cost you approx $100 because tomorrow you will
all be making phone calls to charge your new...

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I received my Dave Browns Carbon Fiber last night and attempted to
put carbon fiber on one side of each of 8 spars.

Well I finished and maybe it added strength but what a mess.

This stuff comes as loose fibers with masking tape at the ends.
As soon as you start fooling with the stuff (it's a bundle about 1 inch
wide) it unravels and starts getting everywhere but on the spar.

I tried to epoxy on the first two spars.  I put a thin coat of 12 minute
epoxy on one side of two spars and tried to lay on a 1/4" of this stuff.

I did but it was tangling up and didn't look wonderful.

For the last 6 spars I zapped one end down and would smooth out (as best
as I could) 4-6 inches of carbon and zapped that down.

This worked but didn't look as good as the epoxy method.

After I flexed the spars - seemed about the same as before I added the
carbon fiber?

Experts feel free to comment.

==============================================================================

I had sent bombs and releases back to Hobby Lobby cause they looked like
cheap junk.  My Vortek bombs and releases arrived from Tower (same order
as carbon fiber).  From 2 feet away they look identical to the cheap
Hobby Lobby junk.  Upon close exam however they are quite nice.  The release
would work without hanging a bomb and the bombs were much softer than the
Hobby Lobby ones leading me to believe they could actually survive hitting
the runway.  They clip together and stay together till hitting the target
(my basement floor).

Ready to cup spar slots in one set of top wings next.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,

    When I CF a spar, I do the following.  First, I preload the spar a
    bit, so that the surface I am going to apply the CF to is bent
    slightly concave.  I peel a bundle of fiber off the tape that is
    about as wide as the spar, and glue, with CA, liberally, starting
    at one end of the spar, and working towards the other.  I work it
    with a plastic bag over my fingers, so I can press the CF flat
    against the spar as I apply the CA.  You only want to bend the
    spar a tiny bit, or when you're done gluing you'll have a
    permanently bent spar, but you want enough of a bend so that the
    CF will be under an expansion load once you allow the spar to
    straigthen.  Rmember that, although the CF won't stretch at all,
    the wooden spar will compress slightly, so the bow you introduce
    into the spar will go away when you release the spar, or at worst,
    when you flip the spar over and bend it a little. Having completed
    one side, flip the spar over and repeate the bending procedure
    with the other side, only this time, bend the spar so that it's
    straight, not concave.  when you're done, you have a wooden spar
    with CF on both sides, and the CF is being pulled taut by the
    wooden spar, which is being compressed.  You should use the side
    of the spar you glued first, the one under the greater exapnsion
    load, as the bottom of the spar. 

    If you hold this up, side by side with a plain wooden spar, you
    will see that the CF-ed spar is much more resistant to bending.
    The only thing you need to be careful of is putting a warp in the
    spar when you glue the CF down.  Don't CF all four sides of the
    spar, only the top and bottom, with respect to the way the spar
    gets mounted in the wing. It does leave the spar kindof messy, so
    what I do is smear some magic model filler over the length of the
    spar, on top of the CF, and then sand it *REAL* lightly, just to
    smooth it out a bit.  One guy I knew glued 1/32 sheet over the CF
    to hide it.  If the edge of the spar that is CF-ed is exposed when
    the wing is completed, any covering you put on the wing is going
    to show the CF tape on the spar unless you do one of those things.
    NEVER sand the CF until its smooth, you'll be cutting half the
    fibers if you do, rendering your efforts useless. 

Re .-1

In the glider that I'm building the CF supplied is only to be applied to the 
bottom surface of the spar, and that makes sense to me. Why bother to apply CF
to both top AND bottom, or is it to strengthen the wings on a ship which will 
pull both positive AND negative gee's?

Dave

Thanks for the CF answers guys.  The Prodigy that Dave is building is famous
as a well made (perhaps the best made) 2-meter glider kit.

I was running on instinct and I covered only one side on the spars but
I will put a spar on the top and one on the bottom.  I am going to put
the CF side out so that as a whole the wing will have one CF strip on the
top and one on the bottom.  Any comments?

Dave - do you have Spars top and bottom also and only CF on the bottom
of the bottom spar?

Now to progress.

Last night I cut all the spar slots in 100 ribs - enough for two top wings
(4 halves).  I started setting up the wing jig for proper SCALE rib spacing.

Good thing Jim Reith loaned his 26 rib holders to me - combined with
my 26 it is exactly the correct amount to do the job.  As soon as I can get
back to it now things should go fast.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    
    Kay. 
    		I have seen push rods made by laminating piece of CF
    (I'll call it ribbon from BoB Violet.It wasn't fibers more like
    strips cut from a sheet) anyways this was laminated between two
    3/16 x 3/8 inch spare to make a 3/8x 3/8 rod. The to one of the
    outer sides perpendicular to the CF a second piece of CF was laminated.
    
    
    		======
    		| || |
    		| || |
    		------
    
    
    
    Boy was that strong.
    
    
    Tom

>bottom surface of the spar, and that makes sense to me. Why bother to apply CF
>to both top AND bottom, or is it to strengthen the wings on a ship which will 
>pull both positive AND negative gee's?

    Yes. and No.

    You have a flexible spar, and you want to make it less flexible.
    When you bend the spar, the bending moment makes the spar
    experience two different stresses.  If you were to view the stress
    in a cross section of the spar at its center, you would see the
    spar experience a compression stress on the concave side of the
    bend, and an expansion stress on the convex side of the bend
    (oversimplification, but reasonably accurate). 

    if this is a bent spar :
    

    -           Concave side           -
        -           "A"           -
             -               -
                   -    -
		    "B"
		Convex side

    The fibers of wood along the concave side are being compressed,
    those on the convex side are being stretched.  If I glue something
    that won't stretch (like CF) to the concave side of the spar, and
    then relax the force I had applied to bend the spar, it will
    pretty much hold its concave shape, right ?  Now I try to bend the
    spar so that it's flat, OK ?  What happens to the spar ?  Since
    the CF tape on side "A" can't be stretched, the only way the spar
    can bend is by compressing side "B" until it's as compressed as
    side "A".  But remember, I had "Preloaded" side "A" with
    compression when I glued the CF to it, so now I have side "A"
    *AND* side "B" both under compression, even though the spar is
    FLAT.  Now I glue somemore CF to side "B", and release the spar.
    It stays flat, but is "preloaded".  This makes the spar stronger,
    since the wood is "denser" in a way, also, the preloaded spar
    (which is already experiencing the internal stresses it would be
    under if it were bent) is more resistant to bending, since the CF
    won't allow expansion, and so the only way the spar can bend more
    is to compress more, and we all know that the force needed to bend
    the spar is the same as that needed to compress a spring (Force =
    Spring Constant * distance bent).  Since the spar thinks it is
    already "bent" even though it's flat, the equations look like
    this :

	Un-CFed spar, force to bend is F = K * X
	CFed spar, force to bend is F = K * (X + Amount of bend)

    so, you see, you need a higher force to bend the CFed spar the
    same amount as the unCFed spar, the CFed spar is more resistant to
    bending.

    When you only did one side of the spar, the spar couldn't be
    preloaded (or it would stay bent after you glue the CF to it), so
    all that the CF does in this case is eliminate the expansion
    stress the CFed side of the spar would experience when bent
    convex.  This makes the spar less likely to fail at a given stress
    level, since the point of highest expansion stress (which is where
    a failure is most likely to occur) migrates to the CF, which is
    unlikely to break.  The key is that, since the spar isn't
    preloaded, the force equations go like this :

	Un-CFed spar is still F = K * X
	CFed spar is now F = (K+Z) * X
				(Z is a constant like K)
    
    but ONLY in the direction that forces the CFed side of the spar to
    be convex.  In the other direction its the same as an unCFed spar.


    Hope this clears things up.

    Hope I wasn't oversimplifying too much.


    Randy

    Kay,
    
    Any chance you'll have one of the BJ's done in time to bring it
    to Phoenix??  If you need help with initial flight(s)/trimming,
    I'll be happy to assist on the Friday immediately preceeding the
    Fly-In.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    Any chance you'll have one of the BJ's done in time to bring it
>    to Phoenix??  If you need help with initial flight(s)/trimming,
>    I'll be happy to assist on the Friday immediately preceeding the
>    Fly-In.    

That is the goal - but I hope to make an initial flight before I box it up.
And I'm still doing things in parallel so I should have two ready tho
I will only ship one.

Got the 1st set if top wings off the jig this weekend.  And got the second
set of top wing ribs set up on the Jig now.

I'm a little disappointed in the torsional strength of the wing - not much
so I am considering sheeting the bottom since the judges won't look at the
bottom of the wings to count ribs - right?  Haven't put any cap strips 
on these wings yet and I still have to cut the ailerons out.  But I would
like to add some torsional strength to this wing before I cap and cover it.
Any ideas - it is a simple (but large cord) wing with 4 spars - two on top
and two on the bottom and shear webs front and rear.  A hard balsa leading
edge and trailing edge.  Any comments?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    I wouldn't be overly concerned at an apparent lack of torsional
    strength at this stage.  The "bridge-building" construction common to most
    sport-type models tends to spoil one and disilllusion him when handling
    a structure of more scale-like construction.  Fact is, once the
    wing is covered with Super-Coverite, Koverall, or whatever (I recommend
    _against_ a plastic film), I'll defy you to twist the structure. 
    As was/is the case with full scale construction, the covering
    contributes most of the strength, torsional and otherwise..    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Made good progress last night.  Got spars installed and all shear webs and
the leading edge on the second pair of top wings.

Next is the trailing edge and 200 cap strips.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    	I agree with Al that you should not be concerned about torsional
    stiffness of the uncovered wing.  I built one that was really flexible
    and it was fine when covered.  The only thing to be concerned about
    is the possibility of warps when covering.  make sure to get the
    wing straight or hold it that way when shrinking the covering. 
    If it gets warped, twist it and heat it until the warp is out. 
    It'll be plenty strong after the covering is on.
    
    CHarlie
    

    Kay,

    I agree with Al and Charlie.  I too had a flimsey wing until I
    covered it - now it's very torsionally stiff.

                                - Dan

>    I agree with Al and Charlie.  I too had a flimsey wing until I
>    covered it - now it's very torsionally stiff.

Guess I better reply before everybody jumps in - OK guys - I won't add
any more wood to the wing.  But there is a world of difference in the
strength added with MonoKote and Coverite.  I'll be using Super Shrink
Coverite and don't expect to gain nearly as much strength as MonoKote.

Last night I added the last pair of trailing edges to the main wings
and started doing rib caps.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Au contraire!  Super-shrink Coverite is _TONS_ stronger than Monokote
    or any other plastic film!!!  Even the lowly Silkspun Coverite is
    stronger but the woven fabric Super-shrink is fantastically strong
    and will add immeasurably more strength to yer' structure than would
    a plastic film.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Kay,
    	Al beat me to it but you won't find a covering as strong as
    Super-Shrink Coverite.  It is heavier and stronger than monokote.
    I haven't figured out how to prevent the seams from showing with
    this stuff without filling in the fabric.
    
    Charlie
    

I'll grant you all that super Coverite is strong for some things - like
probably punctures.  But as we talked about when I build my Big Stick 20...
I completed the covering of one wing and it had a slight warp.  The damn
Coverite didn't have enough pulling power to hole the warp out and re-shrink
the Coverite to keep it out.  MonoKote pulls much better and you can
make the surface tight as a drum with MonoKote whereas you can't (or at least
I couldn't) with super Coverite.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Aha, but what yer' describing is a function of shrinkability, not
    strength.  I agree that Coverite may not lend itself to the removal
    of warps/twists but, again, this is not a measure of strength.  Built
    straight and covered with super-shrink Coverite, a wing will be
    ultimately stronger than one covered with film.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Saturday and Sunday I capped ribs, and capped ribs, and capped ribs, and...

I finally finished with the wing jig - used all 52 wing jig brackets - exactly.

Monday I sanded the top wings leading edges - and sanded, and sanded, ...

Yesterday I cranked up the radial arm saw with a sanding disk on and
shaped the wing tips.  I made the wing with all ribs the same size cause
the plans were not scale - so I am sanding my way down to scale at the
root and tips - sigh.

I should be mailing my OS in today and if it comes back quick then
the Aeromaster will be my backup ship to take to Phenix - yes I know
Al - I'd be trying to win least fidelity to scale as an F14 Tomcat :-)

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I cut the ailerons out of 4 wings.
Picture this after cutting I have 70 or so ribs that end
where I want to have a trailing edge and hinges.
So I had to cut hundreds of little chunks of balsa and zap them
between the ribs.  Got most of them in now and will get the rest
after I bevel the front of the ailerons.

Went to the local bicycle shop for spokes - they are out of business.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay. Could you have been able to trim an additional 1/4" off of
    the trailing edge of the wing and just added a 1/4"trailing edge
    cap?                                                           
    
    Tom

>    Kay. Could you have been able to trim an additional 1/4" off of
>    the trailing edge of the wing and just added a 1/4"trailing edge
>    cap?                                                           
    
Tom - I considered that but thought that I was less lightly to cut
the line straight and if I took out too much then I would have had a
real problem.  Additionally I was afraid of sanding the trailing edges
of all the ribs to get them right for the new cap.  This way I don't sand
the ribs until they have lots of balsa around them.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished hinging the ailerons and epoxied the lower wings
to the unfinished balsa block which will form the lower
gull wing. Then I cut slots in the wing center sections
out into the 1st 4 rib bays and epoxied in plywood supports.
Boy was that hard.  Last night I drilled holes for the bottom
wing mount bolts and epoxied in plywood support brackets which
I will later install blind nuts into for the lower wing mount.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Got the upper wings mounted in the Gull sections and cut slots
and added the dihedral (sp) braces.  Sat down with the belt sander
for a couple hours and turned the lower center sections of the
bottom wings into Gulls.  Actually mounted all wings on both planes
for the first time - now I'm more excited about building.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Got plywood reinforcements and 14 of 16 Goldberg latches installed
in the wings.  Had to wait on 2 cause I foolishly installed the plywood
rib reinforcements during wing build on one bottom wing and now I have
to screw in the latches after the fact - sigh.

Got a hold of an old bicycle wheel from a friend at work so now I have
lots of spokes to start the interwing struts with.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Installed all the aileron belcranks in the wings and installed
all the dressmaker hooks for the flying and landing wires.  Need to get
some aileron hardware and sheet the wings around the protrusions
for the interwing struts and flying and landing wires.  This requires
a trip to the hobby shop - so I may put it off a few days.  Plan
to call Larry Wolf at Jet Hanger Hobbies and order paint today.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished installing the aileron hardware, micro filled the wings
and fuselage.  Started fiberglassing the wing center sections and
fuel proofed the engine compartments.  Started building tail feathers - 
finished one vertical Stab and rudder layout.

Ordered RAM Navigation lights - got a little carried away with tower
order (actually birthday presents form my wife) and ordered the cheapest
1991 radio (Futaba Conquest (I know only Airtronics is certified - but
the cheapest Airtronics is $100 more than this one)).  Also ordered
a Thermal Charger (Yes - Dan Miner - it's electric) - should be good
for lunch hour flights.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished the built up vertical stabs, horizontal stabs, rudder, and elevators.
Hinged and sanded.  Put the last coat of fiberglass on all 4 wing center
sections.

Next I have to attach the tail feathers to the fuselage.  As it turns out
this tail section would be easy to bolt on.  I haven't checked balance yet
but I'm sure it will already be tail heavy cause I have a brass and music wire
tail skid epoxied in and the entire fuselage all the way back to the tail se
solid balsa and the stringers are zapped on top of that.  In the tail I have
two triangular shaped pieces of 1/4" balsa on the top and bottom.  To mount
the tail feathers I put another 1/4" balsa triangle About 2" wide and 2" long
tapering to a point.  Then goes the horizontal stab.  Then a 1/2" solid balsa
piece goes on each side of the vertical stab.  Of course I could drill lots
of lightening holes in most of this BUT if I decide to bolt on the tail all
I have to do is put 4 blind nuts in the bottom triangle piece and some bolts
and washers.  The directions for the tail said to sand to match the profile
and there was no profile view in the plans so I sanded an ailfoil into the
horizontal stab - should help with the tail weight.  

If I bolt the tail on I have two advantages:

1) I could adjust the angle of incidence later.
2) It will fit in a smaller box.

I have two disadvantages:

1) It will weigh more.
2) I don't know how to hide the bolts

Soooooooooooooooo

Since I plan to do this tonight I would like to here your opinions?
Anybody have a clever way to hide the bolts - they would be on top of the
horizontal Stab and it will be chrome yellow?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay
    
    	You could,
    
    		1, Install blind nuts from the top of the horizontal
    stab downward. A piece od ply would have to be laminated to the
    top of the stab to add support for the blind nuts.
    
    		2, Substitute 1/4"ply for the 1/4"balsa that the stab
    sits on.
    	
    		3, Drill down through the stab into the ply plate. Install
    the blind nuts to the top of the horizontal stab and insert the
    bolts to hold that stab on from the bottom of the fuse. I small
    length of plastic straw will serve and an access hole from the bottom
    of the fuse up to the ply plate.
    
    
    
    
    	Also If you tack glue a scrap balsa piece the thickness of the
    horizontal stab then he two filler blocks it's easy to carve the
    filler blocks to shape and then seperate them from the scrap balsa.
                                    
    
    Tom

Love this notes file - I took Tom's advice and started mounting the tail
feathers last night - hope to finish tonight if I can get the
blind nuts.

>< Note 417.97 by SA1794::TENEROWICZT >
...
>    		1, Install blind nuts from the top of the horizontal
>    stab downward. A piece od ply would have to be laminated to the
>    top of the stab to add support for the blind nuts.

I don't think I'll need the ply cause I have had good luck just making pin
holes and using CA to harden balsa?
    
>    		2, Substitute 1/4"ply for the 1/4"balsa that the stab
>    sits on.

The deck was already 1/4" balsa, on top of that I put another 1/4" balsa
on top of that goes 1/4" balsa horizontal stab, on top of that goes
1/4" balsa pieces that but up against the vertical stab - these I will
put the blind nuts in.  On top of that goes 1/8" balsa that will cover
up the blind nuts and line up flush with the top of the turtle deck
coming aft from the tail gunner.  Yes - I need a 1 inch screw to
reach thru all this wood.
    	
>    		3, Drill down through the stab into the ply plate. Install
>    the blind nuts to the top of the horizontal stab and insert the
>    bolts to hold that stab on from the bottom of the fuse. I small
>    length of plastic straw will serve and an access hole from the bottom
>    of the fuse up to the ply plate.

I asked my wife if we had any straws last night - WOW - she came up with
3 burger king straws that will be perfect tubes to drop screws down.
    
>    	Also If you tack glue a scrap balsa piece the thickness of the
>    horizontal stab then he two filler blocks it's easy to carve the
>    filler blocks to shape and then seperate them from the scrap balsa.

I saw that trick on one of the DECRCM Video Magazines.  Good idea but it
doesn't apply here cause the filler blocks are suppose to end up flat with
square corners - the tail gunner liked to play shuffle board when he wasn't
doing target practice on the vertical stab and rudder.                                    
    
>    Tom

Thanks again Tom for the idea of attaching from the bottom and using straws.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    I'd reconsider yer' decision _not_ to use ply-plates into which
    to mount yer' blind-nuts.  Why, because the little shoulder on a
    blind nut is precious little defense against the nut pulling through
    balsa under stress.  Use of ply-mounting plates spreads the stress
    concentrated at the screw/blind-nut over a wider area and minimizes
    the chance for the nut to pull through.  Balsa hardened with CYA
    is pretty tough but NOT as tough as ply, particularly once exposed
    to fuel residues/OIL.  Id use the ply if it was my bird.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I concure with Al,    The ply is used to spread the load out over
    the surface. What your proposing would concentrate the load in one
    small area. Also the head of the bolt should come to rest on ply
    or again your asking a lot out of a little balsa.
    
    
    Tom
    
    
    I'd hate to see you waist all of your work on these scale birds
    because of a few square inches of missing ply.

OK Al, OK Tom, I put 1/16 ply on both sides of the balsa that holds on
the tail feathers.  Now believe it or not I can see a light at the end
of the tunnel.  I actually have a pseudo schedule.  Install radio, glass,
cover, and spray primer in the next 8 days, take both BJ's to the Orange 
Airport for test flights Sunday after next (5-Mar-1989), bring in to work 
for a coffin fitting next Tuesday.  Paint and detail till I have to pack
it up for the flight to Phoenix.  

RAM Navigation lights arrived last night - I probably won't have time to
put them in before Phoenix as I haven't formed the Plexiglas covers yet.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Got the servos installed, fuel tanks and fuel fill valves, batteries in, 
throttle linkage, put floors in the cockpits (needed to mount power switches 
and charger), and installed control horns on elevator and rudder.

Hope to make and install pushrods to elevator and rudder, power stitch, charging
jacks, and start N-struts tonight.

I gotta tell you Tom - those straws were a real pain to install.                              -< BJ Progress... >-

Revised pseudo schedule:

Install radio, glass, cover, and spray primer in the next 6 days, take both BJ's
to the Orange Airport for test flights Sunday after next (5-Mar-1989), bring in to work 
for a coffin fitting next Tuesday.  Paint and detail till I have to pack
it up for the flight to Phoenix.  

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finished the radio installation and put the Navigation lights 1/2 in.
Soldered a set of spokes together for interwing N struts.

Should they be loose, snug, ?

Now don't yell at me.
Do I really have to spray primer over the Super Shrink Coverite
on the open surfaces?  Won't the Ditsler lacquer stick OK without it?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Not sure if I understand the "loose, snug" question regarding your
    interplane struts.  They should snap snugly into the Goldberg brackets
    and their length should be exactly what's required to provide the
    necessary top-to-bottom wing separation.
    
    On the primer question, I'd say yes, at least a light coat of K&B
    primer is necessary as a sealer and finish base.  Also, you'll probably
    want to brush some primer over all seams/overlaps in the Coverite
    to hide them...but run a bead of thin CYA along these seams/overlaps
    _before_ applying the primer as the solvents can loosen the joint
    and cause the material to sag.  Even then, go easy, a little at
    a time, with the primer-over-seams/overlaps to prevent the
    forementioned from occurring.  I'm afraid the Ditzler (or most other
    paints) will peel off if not applied over primer.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    Not sure if I understand the "loose, snug" question regarding your
>    interplane struts.  They should snap snugly into the Goldberg brackets
>    and their length should be exactly what's required to provide the
>    necessary top-to-bottom wing separation.

The spokes snap in the Goldberg brackets fine, I meant that when you go put
one in a bracket should you have to flex the wing a tad to do it?

If you don't they actually rattle loose - if you do there is obviously
some tension between the wings,  probably academic now - I have
to flex the wings a tad.

I fell behind schedule so took a vacation day Thursday to catch up.
Got further behind so took a vacation day Friday to catch up.
Got further behind.  All toll I worked Thursday from 6:00 AM to 1:00 AM,
Friday from 6:00 AM to 12:30 AM, Saturday from 8:00 AM to midnight, and
Sunday from 12:30 PM to 8:00 PM.  They are now flyable but it rained
Sunday so there will be no flight test till Al Casey in Phoenix.

I soldered the N-Struts but have not covered them with balsa yet.
Planes have had primer sprayed on and sanded off.  Fuselage metal parts
are painted with silvaria (sp) aluminum.  Olive Drab fuselage tonight.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

As per plan I sprayed the Olive Drab last night.

There is something mystically wonderful about Olive Drab paint.
As soon as it starts hitting the plane it no longer looked like
a Bipe but rather a FIGHTER!

As each coat made it darker and more shiny it kinda reminded me
of Al's MiG.  But sigh - I suppose after I make the wings Yellow
it will loose its military like attitude.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

As per plan I sprayed the Chrome Yellow on the wings last night.

Yellow sucks.  My entire workshop looks like a dandelion factory
exploded in it.  The stuff covered awful.  I started spraying at about
8:30 PM and finished at 1:00 AM.  First I thinned 3-1, then after a quart
of that I thinned slightly less then 2.5-1, then after a quart of that 
I thinned less than 2-1 for about 6-10 oz (I used up all my thinner and had
to clean up with acetone.

How's it look - awful.
I masked the Olive Drab with black electricians tape in hopes that it had lower
tack than real masking tape because the Olive Drab was only 24 hours old.

No problem - BUT where the paper was it ripped up Olive Drab - the black tape
didn't hurt the old paint.  When removing some this morning it would pull up
the edge of the yellow tho.

Sigh - done painting before Phoenix - no fancy colors on the tail however
and no stars on the wings.

Hope to install the bomb release and navigation lights tonight.

I was originally planning on packing up Thursday evening to ship on Friday
but now I'm concerned that the packing will ruin the paint?

Anybody have any good ideas on something that I should put on the paint surface
that will not hurt - like rapping the plane in wax paper?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    I have a bit of tension on the interplanes so they hold tight; no
    rattle.  No ideas on the packing material.  Shipping boxes I've
    seen have cradles firmly mounted inside, into/onto which the model's
    components fit snugly, secured with rubberbands..., no packing material
    is used or needed.  Have you considered styrofoam peanuts??  (No,
    not to feed the styrofoam elephants!  ;b^} )  

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>While scrounging through my old Model Builders I came across one
>Wylam drawing on the BJ. They used to publish one sheet of his
>drawings every month.  The one I have is the top and bottom
>views.  Let me know if you can use a copy.

I'm not sure I've seen that one - yes please send me a copy.
Also if it is not reproduced on the page(s) you copy please
indicate the month and year of the magazine.

>Also, I mentioned to John DeVries last night that your plane was
>almost finished, though he may already have known.  He remembered
>you...probably would enjoy a pix. 

Small world - last night at about midnight I was reading John's latest
article in the AMA rag.  He was talking about some nifty K-Mart wheels
that he is using and I was having a fit cause there was no picture.

Also if I keep on schedule I plane to take pictures of the two BJ's 
tonight as this may be the last time that they are both in one piece
cause I plan to pack one up tonight and ship to Phoenix tomorrow.
I had been planing all along to get an extra set of pictures to John
as I'm sure he will get a kick out of seeing two being produced in
parallel.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Well - it's day zero as far as the Berliner-Joyce is concerned.

One is packed up and I'm taking it to UPS at 10:00 AM.

That is not to say I finished - but I had to pull the plug and ship
short.  Got my wife and daughter dressed up in khaki and yellow outfits
last night and took pictures of them modeling the planes.

It is going with the wings from the other BJ cause I managed to cut a
big slice in the top of the correct top wing - sigh.  With the wrong
wing mounted on the fuselage the fit of the wing to the wing saddle 
looks really bad.  I choose this fuselage cause it had Dan Snows old
Circus radio in it and that is plug compatible with Al Casey's radio
for a trainer cord.

So what's not done.

It does not have the bomb release installed.   There are no streamline
tubes around the N-Struts or the Landing gear. There is no wind shield
or plastic formed covers over the navigation lights.  The cockpits are
bear - no instruments or pilot or gunner.

The gun ports have no guns installed.  The paint edge of the yellow and
olive drab is pitiful and I have to redo that when I return. The
Red/White/Blue Stars and Balls and Red/White/Blue tail is not done. My
U.S. ARMY vinyl has not arrived yet.  No exhaust ports, no cooling
louvers.  BUT - from 15 feet away it looks real nice and it is (they
are) ready to fly.

And of course neither one has flown.

These things could take a long time but I can put this on the back burner
and start on a glider soon after I get back.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Last couple of days I cleaned the workshop.  I had yellow paint dust
on everything.

Leaving today at 1300 for Phoenix.  Last night I cut out the aluminum
windshields.  I used the Dremel scroll saw - worked great on aluminum.

Not much progress - but it took amazing restraint to do that and not 
start a glider kit.  Picture this - a perfectly clean workshop and two
glider kits setting in a box - sigh.

As an aside I flew the Drifter II at Orange this last Saturday - when
everyone was raving about what a great day it was - I thought it was
too darn cold!  First I've been out flying since Oct or Nov.

Kevin just called and postponed his airline flight to Phoenix - his
wife has the flu and they are in a holding pattern.

Well while I am gone I sincerely hope that you have nice weather and
no crashes - I still want to see Dan's MiGster and Eric's Monitor
at the meeting after next.  Maybe I can take some pictures of Al
Casey with the BJ and send them to Norm Goyer.  Can you see Norms
article now "Al's emerges from workshop with highly detailed and 
expertly crafted MiG replacement after years of nursing that Russian
hanger queen around the scale masters circuit.  It has been revealed
to this author that the P-16's official name was "Nomad".  

Sorry - got to rambling again - see you all in the notes in two weeks.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Wow - gone 11 days and I'm 240 notes behind.

Well - it flew.  Actually the plane flew pretty well but I had engine
problems and did some workshop class damage on my last dead stick
landing.

What follows is a rambling/how was your weekend/BJ progress/trip report...

Tuesday 14-Mar-1989

	Left for Logan at 1:30PM arrived at motel in Phoenix at 11:00PM
and the Berliner-Joyce was setting in the lobby.

Wednesday 15-Mar-1989

	Visited Pats parents and stopped in a local hobby shop for a trainer cord.  
Purchased a rubber powered foam ARF Zero.  Saw the nicest Curtis Hawk hanging
from the hobby shop ceiling that you're ever going to see.  Think it was
the Royal kit.  Scale bombs and rack - great.  When we returned to the
motel that night Kevin's CAP 21 was waiting in the lobby.

Thursday 16-Mar-1989

	Went to Cave Creek and Carefree shopping for Indian Jewelry.  Stopped
by Turf Soaring School and took a 20 minute Aerobatic ride in an ASK-21.
Pulled +4 and -1 G's.  Did a 140 mph low pass 10 feet over the field - WOW!
I didn't like the negative G's cause with the big plastic bubble canopy
and the way you crawl into these things you have nothing to hang on to so
when you go negative you are hanging from your shoulder straps and there is
nothing over your head except space - if the strap ever let go you would fly
thru that cheap plastic canopy in a split second.  The maneuvers were so close
together that it was just constant G forces in all directions - more like
I was in a tornado than an airplane - looks great from the ground tho.

	Tow tug was a Piper Pawnee and they were also giving rides in an N3N-3
Navy Bipe.

Friday 17-Mar-1989

	Fun Fly pregame show.  1st Test flight of Berliner-Joyce P16.  Needed
lots of trim and Engine had debris in it and ate 3 glow plugs.  Al Casey
flew the entire flight.  Guess who shows up at the field.  Kevin Ladd took
the red eye to Phoenix and was there for the BJ's 2nd flight - Al did the take 
off and dead stick landing and I flew about 5 minutes.  Still needed lots of 
trim and we thought we ran it out of fuel.

Saturday 18-Mar-1989

	Fun Fly.  No BJ flights.  Watched a beautiful P38 crash - Kevin will
give the details.  3 (All) Corsairs crashed.  Attended the banquet starting
at 6:00PM in the evening.  Great fun - thought I was going to die laughing
when the 1/8 Air Force mad crasher came in and smashed 4 plastic models
into a million pieces.  Everyone was so tired from the day in the desert
that the band had to cut the program short.  The star singer was DEC's own
Al Casey backed up by his flying buddies from the 1/8 Air Force.

Sunday 19-Mar-1989

	Fun Fly.  We ate two more glow plugs on the BJ but managed to keep the
engine running long enough for me to take off turn around and dead stick
in.  I couldn't make it back to the runway and ended up dumping it in the
brush (miss judged the distance to the open area) and suffered a little
damage that could not be repaired at the field.  Both days there was this
very nice model C47 that dropped 12 paratroopers over the flight line.
Today it crashed and rekitted itself.  Kevin unpacked his CAP 21 and took
it but never flew.  Each day every pilot was given a random prize ranging
from a catalogue to a radio.  Ironically they also gave away the same Royal
Curtis Hawk kit that I was admiring at the local hobby shop.  I won a free
peanut scale rubber kit the second day - so watch out Glen Davison and
Ed Kaufmann - here comes some future indoor competition.

Monday 20-May-1989

	Kevin and I boxed up our model planes and took them to UPS.

	Went back to the Turf Flying School and Kevin took the Aerobatic glider
ride and I flew in the Navy N3N.  Wow - this plane was great.  I can honestly
say that I have never felt more safe and secure in any airplane (including
commercial flights) than I did in the front of this biplane.  This thing was
great.  I flew it myself for the first 15 minutes then the pilot started
doing some aerobatics.  - Loops, Rolls, Spins, Snap Rolls, Hammerhead turns,
and Wing Overs.  All the time we never pulled any negative G's only approached
0 G's at the top of the loop.  Great fun.

	Kevin went back to Boston.

	Visited Pat's parents, stopped in another local hobby shop.  This one
was neat cause they had a workshop in the back in glass and several models
under construction.  Seems that you can finish your model there if you don't
have the workshop or if you are having any problems and want help. - slick
idea.

Tuesday 21-May-1989

	Went on a tour of the Grand Canyon, with a brief drive thru Sedona, and 
stops at the Montezuma Castle Indian Ruin and shopping on the Navaho Indian
Reservation.  Tried to spend lots of money on jewelry so that I could earn
some airplane credits.

Wednesday 22-May-1989

	Stand down.  Spend the day sitting around the pool reading and had
	a nice supper with Al and Kathy Casey.

Thursday 23-May-1989

	Went to Tucson.  Saw the Pima Air Museum and picked up a Jack Armstrong
Card Kit Zero - these are the kits that were in Wheaties in 1944.  

	Went to Old Tucson which is a movie set where several western movies were 
made.

Friday 24-May-1989

	Tucson Again - like the two hour drive:-)  Saw the Arizona-Sonora Desert
Museum they had a Kestrel and the ground hogs were great.  Went to Colossal 
Cave - as caves go this is not great look at as all rocks are just
covered with hardened dust so everything has a dull brown color - but what
is interesting is that this cave is still largely unexplored.  Where are all the
enthusiastic spelunkers?

Saturday 25-May-1989

	Stopped for one last visit with Pat's parents then at noonish got on a plane
for Boston - at midnight arrive home in Orange.  Still some snow on my driveway
from last Fridays storm.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    What?  No comments on the two Roy Orbison numbers the D&D Band did??

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    What?  No comments on the two Roy Orbison numbers the D&D Band did??

Pat said she thought you did a great job on "California Blue".
So I told he I would tell you that she must not have thought too 
much of your version of "You Got It":-).

Band was great - I'm kinda swamped at work and forgot too much
to make good notes about the bash or the flying.

The two Der Jaggers were great!

During the banquet they interrupted the program to announce that
some turkey had his car parked so that it was blocking the
cateriers - license number was "I RC AV8" - I just about died
laughing!

It is amazing how much of the real scale flying and planes I missed
because I was so self centered around the Berliner-Joyce.

I still think you should not have let the mad crasher smash up
all those plastic models - but talk about funny!

P.S.  Request for next year.
      "Wind Surfer"

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

RE:
    ================================================================================
Note 417.115                     Berliner-Joyce                       115 of 115
K::FISHER "Only -14 Days till Phoenix!"              29 lines  28-MAR-1989 14:39
                           -< Al sings very well... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       ^_____________
                                    |
Kay,                                |
what gives? You going back so soon?--

Dan Eaton

    Re .116, Dan,
    
    Notice Kay's personal name says "- (minus) 14 Days till Phoenix."
    
    
    Re .115, Kay
    
    You were amused, I was annoyed at the "move yer' car thing."  Why?
    Because, barely an hour earlier, one of our younger troops came
    to me and said I had to move my car (I was parked right next to
    the sidewalk into the hall) as "someone" had to get "something"
    in there.  Well meaning, the kid volunteered to move the wagon for
    me so I gave him the keys and _he_, not yer's truly, put the car
    in the way of the caterers path of exit.  I'd gone outside a little
    before we ate and wondered what was going on as another _private_
    vehicle was parked where I'd originally parked and I couldn't tell
    that anything'd been accomplished by this Chinese fire-drill.
    
    Anyhoo, I'd been tired, hot, tense and cranky since arriving at
    the banquet hall at 5:00 and this really wasn't a good time to have
    _one_more_ thing to contend with...particularly since my cue to
    take the stage was coming momentarily.  I guess Tom had to ad-lib
    for a few moments while I went grumbling out to move the car _again_.
    Guess it's kinda funny now, but at the time.... ;b^{  
    
    As to the Orbison songs, Pat must be forgiven as California Blue
    is, admittedly, her favorite from the "Mystery Girl" album.  Mine
    is "You Got it" and, I think we did it better that CB.  But that's
    why they sell Fords in more colors than black I guess...everyone
    likes something different.  Boy, if they didn't, we'd all be flying
    the same airplanes, right?  What an incredibly boring thought _that_
    is, eh??

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I've been a little sidetracked since returning from the trip.
Finished one paper "Jack Armstrong" (Wheaties) Zero.
Finished the MCR Foam ARF Peanut Zero.

Started Sagitta 600 and finished the stabilator and rudder.

Berliner-Joyce arrived a couple of days ago and seems to be on.
Stretched out the Coverite on the bottom - probably cause I
packed it too tight and maybe it was in a VERY HOT truck.

Started taking the engine apart.  It was filled with aluminum
debris again.  The bearing just forward of the crank shaft
counter weight had shed it's covering ring and the engine was
using parts of it to scuff up the crankcase because the bottom
of the connecting rod has minimal clearance with the case.

I have a friend who is going to boil it and try to pull off
the front press fit thing that you put the prop against.

The piston is slightly scored on two sides and the sleeve looks
perfect except for one good deep scratch on one side.

Am considering just replacing the bearing(s) and giving it a go.

The glow plug still worked.  I patched up most of the structural
damage and epoxied back in the brackets that hold on the top
wing - then beefed that up some.  I finally started (just) the dreaded
interwing struts and landing gear struts.  Seems like I'm in
a state of needing supplies from every type of store right now
so I had to stop repairing/building till I got to Spags and a paint store.
Next is Tower order, JR Order, local hobby shop, etc.

P.S.  Sorry for the short coverage of the 1/8 Air Force Fun/Fly.
      It seems that you sure miss a lot when your involved.
Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Well - another month has breezed by and I have a Berliner-Joyce P16
in for the DECRCM meeting tonight.  This is not the same one as
last time - it is the twin brother.  Last time I brought in the wings
that went to Phoenix and the fuselage that stayed home.  This one is the
fuselage and tail that went to Phoenix and the wings that stayed home.
I've replaced the rear bearing in the OS .45 FSR.

Not a lot of change.  I've completed the landing gear struts and interwing
struts.  There is a bomb mounted on the bottom wing (but the servo is not
installed yet.   The U.S.  Army decals are on the bottom wing.  And at last
I have completed Phoenix repairs.  I've been painting the national insignia's 
and tail (it just took forever).  Example - mask the yellow wing.  Spray yellow
to prevent bleed under the masking tape.  Wait a few days for the paint
to dry.  Spray silver aluminum in order for the next color to cover well.
Wait a few days for the paint to dry.  Spray white.    Wait a few days 
for the paint to dry.  Mask the star pattern on top of the white.  
Spray white to prevent bleed under the masking tape on the inside of 
the star.    Wait a few days for the paint to dry.  Spray Yellow on the 
outside of the star to prevent masking tape bleed.  Wait a few days for 
the paint to dry.  Spay silver aluminum in order for the next color to
cover well.  Spray blue for the star background.    Wait a few days for 
the paint to dry.  Mask for the ball in the center.  Spray white to prevent
bleed under the masking tape.  Wait a few days for the paint to dry.  
Spray silver aluminum in order for the next color to cover well.  Wait a 
few days for the paint to dry.  Spray red.  

Now I have to sand down all those ruff edges - hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Still need exhaust stacks and guns real bad.  Ready to start the squadron
leader stripes and the squadron insignia - real excited about that.
Boy some people are easy to please huh?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Been working on exhaust stacks for the last 3 workshop evenings.

Wow - there has got to be a better way.

I need 12 exhaust stacks for each side of the fuselage - and two
fuselages - hence 48 stacks - plus I wanted an extra set - for 
screw ups and crashes.  Anyway I cut 6 pieces of 1/32 ply and drilled
12 holes in each.  Then I cut 60 plus pieces of 3/16 brass tubing in
1/2" lengths with my Dremel cutting wheel (wore one out).  Then I made
a little jig with two sizes of brass and inserted each stub into the
jig and ground each down to the correct length with a bevel of about
30 degrees.  Then I held each tiny stub in my fingers and with the
cutting wheel in the Dremel I scuffed off the ruff edges created by the
grinder.  Then with my portable drill I reamed out the melted edges on
the bevel.  Not I am in the process of placing each piece on a drill bit
and spinning it against sandpaper to make them all smooth and looking
alike.  Only got 1/4 thru that before my drill needed charging (again)
and was interrupted by Mother's day weekend.

The hard part will be to align them in the plywood and epoxy or zap
them straight - any suggestions?

What color should the exhaust stacks be?  For all the work I just
as soon clear coat them in their shinny brass - cause they look cool.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

        Re:< Note 417.121 by K::FISHER "Stop and Smell the Balsa!" >

        Kay,
        
                You don't  have a documentation package for you Joyce!  I
        suggest you get one and make your stacks the same color as on the
        pictures in the package.    Step  one  in building scale ships is
        usually to get the documentation and build to that.
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    
    	Hi Kay!  You asked for a suggestion on those many tiny exhaust
    stacks, and I got one...but I have a question first!  How close
    together are they going to be?  
    	My first thought was to take some wood, drill the correct # of
    holes for one side's exhaust, and put screws through the wood and into
    the stacks. (Tight fit necessary.)  Then after they dried, you could
    unscrew the screws and be done.  But....this would only work if you had
    enough clearance between stacks to allow the screw-heads to clear each
    other.
    	Another way would be to make the wood they fit into thick enough to
    contact more surface area of the pipes, and have the fit tight enough
    to retain them the way they are inserted.  Then just hand adjust all to
    the proper angle, and zap or epoxy in place.
    	Clear as mud?  Sorry, I'm not too descriptive today!
    
    	Brian
    

>                You don't  have a documentation package for you Joyce!  I
>        suggest you get one and make your stacks the same color as on the
>        pictures in the package.    Step  one  in building scale ships is
>        usually to get the documentation and build to that.

Can you tell this guy makes scale jets?  
We didn't have color pictures in 1930.
All pictures look black.  With panchromatic film yellow also looks black.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

        Re:< Note 417.124 by K::FISHER "Stop and Smell the Balsa!" >

                Aren't there any still in existence?  Most scale modelers
        will use a  museum specimen as the specific plane to model if the
        plane is WWi or WWII vintage.
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

>                Aren't there any still in existence?  Most scale modelers
>        will use a  museum specimen as the specific plane to model if the
>        plane is WWi or WWII vintage.

No - there are none in existence.  The question stands as a generic
1930's vintage question - What color are the exhaust stacks?  I was
mistaken about the apparent color in the pictures - it looks dirty white/gray
in the photos.

I finished polishing (sanding) the brass exhaust stacks last night and made
5 rows of 12 stacks (one spare).  I then force fit them into 1/32" ply
with a pliers and used thin ZAP to hold them.  Later I put the assembly
on the belt sander and sanded the bottom (the part that mates with the
side of the fuselage) smooth and but a bevel so the stacks would hang
at the correct angle.  Then I epoxied them to the planes.  Now I have Stacks!
Looks great - to me anyway.  Guess I should cover the edge with microfil
and sand smooth?  Hmmmmmmm

Anyway - I hope to attempt cutting slots in my 50 mm cannon's tonight.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

>Anyway - I hope to attempt cutting slots in my 50 mm cannon's tonight.

Well - I manufactured two .30 cal Browning machine guns and two .50 cal
Browning machine guns and installed them last night.  The .30s are simply
small short pieces of brass but the .50s are more interesting with cooling
vent slots and holes and much larger.

Is it a fighter yet?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Re: "Is it a fighter yet?"

I dunno. Do they fire and do you have any ammo? ;^)

Actually now that I'm approaching the end of the build cycle I've
been getting very impatient lately.  But now that I have started detailing
it is so much fun that Frankly I don't care if I miss the first fun/fly
or contest because it ain't ready yet.

Early this week I created Radiator Header tanks.  Then I made Air cleaners.
Last night I cranked out 48 louvers.  Fun stuff and everything you do now
shows!  

Next I want to simulate the wire thru peg connectors that hold
on all the cowl/access panels.  In 1/4 - 1/6 scale they typically create
a real pin and run small wire thru them.  I'm in 1/8th scale so I think
I will find some aluminum thread and run it thru some RC56 then place it
in place on the cowl.  After that has dried (24 hours) then make RC56
blobs (like rivets) over spots on the thread.  Then (24 hours later) put
a dab of aluminum paint on top of each blob.  Any opinions or better ideas?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Finally getting around to doing the things that Al Casey told me
to do way back in Phoenix.  I made thin plywood hole reinforcements
for the control exits and put springs on the tail skid.

Not much progress - but progress.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I would like to report that both BJs made successful flights yesterday
but it was not to be.  I showed up at the field with both BJs ready to
go and in my humble opinion they looked simply marvelous.  Then things 
started going wrong.  First Kevin put in a flight on his big P-47 and 
burned out another exhaust system (perhaps he will catch up his old P-47 
note with all the mail that has been going around the net and bring you 
all up to date).  Then I fueled up both BJs.  Errrrr - well I tried to 
fuel up both BJs.  One wouldn't take any fuel and one took about 1/2 gallon?  
So after we took the wet BJ apart and surgically removed the fuel tank 
and poured out a fuselage full of fuel we made a battlefield repair of the 
fuel connections and fueled one up.  We started taking the 2nd BJ apart to 
find why it wouldn't take fuel and after I removed some foam it worked fine 
so we fueled that one up.

So there we were - both BJs fueled up and ready to fly - right?
Wrong.  The OS .45 FSR wouldn't keep running at idle when ever I removed
the power connector from the glow plug.  This took us forever to figure
out that the idle was way to rich.  It didn't help that the glow connector
was a special long reach thing that you really had to wrestle to remove
once the engine started (remember Al) and finally we managed to break it
so we spend inordinate amounts of time fiddling with the connector for
each engine attempt.  Finally we took off the cowl and got the engine to idle
correct.  Then we put the cowl back on and forgot the fuel pressure line
to the tank.  That took us forever to figure out.  Finally things seemed to
be working and I started taxing and broke off the tail skid.  This is made
of music wire brass and solder - guess I have to try to weld the music wire 
together?  So we zapped a piece of hardwood on the tail and pointed it into
the wind (just then the wind changed to our backs).  After a near ground 
loop it lifted the tail and ballooned into the air then stalled then I cut
power and dropped it into the grass.  

The elevator was way to sensitive and I think I should add more weight to 
the front - it is a little more tail heavy than when it went to Phoenix.

Also it seemed way underpowered.  I had a 10x6 three blade on it and forgot
all my 10x6 2 blades at home.  Well if you can't bring multiple props at
least bring multiple airplanes.  So we start up the 2nd BJ.

This one has a used (Yes Al - I know - cheap engines) K&B 60 in it.
When I was building it I bent the needle valve - so I straightened it.
Well after we started it I attempted to adjust the needle valve and I could
close it all the way and the engine kept running.  Hmmmmmmmm
but it ran pretty good so we taxied out and ground looped then pointed it into
the wind (which just changed again) when we notice that the glow starter
is still hanging from the cowl.  I remove it and the engine dies.  OK.
Clean everything up and go home and start a list of things to repair.

You can't believe how disappointed I am.  Two weeks to go to the scale
qualifier and neither plane has had it's safety flight.  I was hoping
to spend this week painting the Indian head and installing wire fasteners
on the cowl.  

I can't say that any of the problems came without warning.  I knew when
I installed the fuel tanks that it was not wonderful and I should have
ordered a needle valve the day I bent the one on the K&B (months ago).
Fortunately Saturday I put in a couple of nice flights in on the Aeromaster.

Soooooooooo

Anybody have an old K&B 60 that is smashed up?  I need a needle valve.
Perhaps some other old K&B might have the same needle valve?

Where is a good place around that stocks the Sullivan Flex tanks?
What I really need is a tank that is lots shorter than the Sullivan
tanks but lots wider and higher - any suggestions?

If all goes well maybe I will get to fly at least one next Saturday.
Sunday is the glider contest at Westboro and I don't want to miss that.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Well as posted in another note both BJ's are flying.

I painted the Indian Heads on the side of the fuselages last night.
Looks great.

This weekend they both go to the local Masters Qualifier.

Thinking about entering one in sportsman and one in expert
and give the CD a taste of rule problems :-)

I hope to start puting the safety wire fastener system on tonight
with Pins and chrome thread.

I still have one outstanding problem with the K&B .61 Veco with
a perry carb.  I am running on Jeff Friedrichs borrowed needle valve
and I called K&B.  They haven't made them in years and have no more
spares.  If any body has a K&B 40 or 60 with a Perry Carb that is
extra I could sure use the needle valve.  Otherwise I have to purchase
a new carb #8761 for $21.95 list.

Kevin says I'm two engines away from having two great planes.

I think he is right.  The K&B runs too good.  Really - way too
much horse power.  Make high speed low passes at a crack above
idle!  Take off in 10 feet.  Anybody have an old OS .45 FSR they
would like to trade for a K&B .60 or just sell out right.

Seems like everyones advise is to opt for the largest engine possible.
Guess glider flying is getting me use to normal takeoffs.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

Got started putting the safety wire fastener system on last night.
Used stick pins and wrapped chrome thread around them.  Looks great
close up.  Between rows of fasteners I made panel lines with a
laundry marker - looks terrible close up but not bad from 10 feet.

I cut off a pin and mounted it in the Dremel flex attachment to the
scroll saw and drilled pin holes with that.  Then I cut off most of
the pin (leaving about 1/4 inch) with diagonal cutters and dip the end in 
RC56.  Then push the pin into the fuselage with a curved needle nose pliers.
Stopping short of seating it - I install the correct (scale) number of pins 
for each length of safety wire.  Then I wrap the chrome thread around the
end pin and make a loop around each pin in sequence (usually 2 to 4)
then holding both ends tight I push all the pins all the way done.  As the
pin flattens out the RC56 gets into the thread.  Then I cut each end of 
thread off.

Now I'm a little concerned about the ability of the thread to survive
prop wash and my post flight cleaning - so I think I will clear coat
over the whole mess and hope that the clear coat helps hold the thread down.

But I may not just cause I'm running out of time.

I finished 84 fasteners (pins and thread) last night, 384 more to go.

I'm not too concerned about the reliability of the fasteners because the
planes will be static judged before they fly again so cleanup and propwash
may cause me extra work but not points.

I'm concerned about the clear coat.  I'd rather not use it if possible
cause it peals and discolors and the lacquer doesn't seem to have any
problem with glow fuel.  

But - I have a beautiful (my opinion) squadron insignia (Indian Head) on
the side that is brand new and made of Pactra enamel.  Will that resist glow
fuel?  Kevin's little devil has been holding up but the port side of the
BJ is directly in line with my exhaust and it gets soaked with fuel instantly.
Any opinions?

P.S.  Three more evenings before the scale masters qualifier.  I've never
      been in a scale competition, I've only flown BJ "A" twice (once in
	  Phoenix 4 months ago) and BJ "B" twice - all dead stick landings, 
	  I've never went thru the set of maneuvers for competition,  I haven't 
	  even made a maneuver list yet, and I have unreliable engines.

P.S.S.  I'm ready!  Move aside boy - scale pilot coming thru :-)

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Pactra (or any of the other) enamels are *_NOT_* fuel proof, even
    fuel resistant.  Take my word for it, the VERY first time you get
    exhaust on 'em, yer' beautiful Indianhead artwork will be history!!!
    Either clear-coat 'em or lose 'em.  BTW, how 'bout a pic or two
    of the (a) completed B-J?  I'd love to see it, especially a close-up
    of the artwork.  I bet it's (they're) plenty colorful with all the
    markings in place.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Hi Kay,
    
    
    >    I'm concerned about the clear coat.  I'd rather not use it if
    > possible cause it peals and discolors and the lacquer doesn't seem to
    > have any problem with glow fuel. 

    I have just coated a fuse, which has a number of different solarspan
    films on it, with Clearcoat. I found in a test run that it produces a
    nice thin film over the covering and joints - sealing all. I don't like
    the idea of it pealing though. What causes this ? Then the
    discolouring. I ran the engine last night on the plane and I didn't
    have too much of a problem cleaning it up - although it requires more
    effort than without the Clearcoat. Shrinking coverings under the
    Clearcoat appears to be a no no. Anybody got any ideas here ?
    Eventually the covering will need shrinking - and I would hate to have
    to peel off the Clearcoat. I also found that it makes some of the
    colours in those stick on labels (as supplied with some models) run
    so it is best to put them on after the Clearcoat. Probably at the
    end of the day it is best to put the Clearcoat only where it is
    needed.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric();
    

    Kay,
    	I don't know what high speed needle valve you have but...
    
    
    Yesterday I called Perry Automotive and in the conversation I
    asked if they had needle valves for the Veco 61. They said yes
    if it's the one with a spring (whatever that means...). So it
    might be in your interest to call them directly (619)744-0841.
    
    
    Tom
    
    
    	I have a brand new K&B 61 if your interested? Never been run.
    We could meet tonight in belchertown. It has a stock muffler.

Hey Mister - How much did those airplanes cost?

Well son - these are not just airplanes - these are precision
scale models of a 1932 Pursuit Bi-Plane.

But Mister - How much did they cost?

Son - you have to look at the big picture.  There airplanes
took over a year to build, working a minimum of 3 nights a week.
They are not composed of just parts.  They are made of sweat and
love and honor and tradition.  There is nobody else in the whole
world that is keeping alive the memories of Berliner-Joyce P16s.
I have a duty to the history of aviation to prolong the memory
of this once marvelous machine.  You can't measure things like
that with money.  These BJs are part of my life.  I have pictures
of them under construction with my daughter as she is growing up.
They are members of the family.  Several evenings and social events
have been planned around various construction stages of these planes.
Would you put a value on your little brother?

But Mister - How much did those BJs cost?

Well - all right.  They were actually quite cheap.  You see
they are scratch built so I didn't have to purchase a kit.
Additionally they both have radios that I already had in
previous planes.  One has an engine that I had in a previous
plane and the other I purchased used for $50.  So just add to that
the cost of the plans $12 and a box of balsa for $20.

Of course there were a lot of little extra things like props,
navigation lights, glue, paint, nuts and bolts, etc. 
Sooooo - I suppose it all adds up to quite a bit.

MISTER - HOW MUCH DID THOSE BJS COST?

OK kid - you asked for it.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Berliner-Joyce            $6.50 | K & B .60                $50.00
    RCM Back Issue            $2.75 | Plans                    $12.00
    12x6 Zinger Prop          $2.18 | 2 ea Navigation Lights   $20.32
    6 ea 2-56 studs            $.57 | 4 ea Deans Connectors     $6.13
    Box-A-Balsa Assortment   $20.80 | 2 oz Zap-A-Gap            $6.27
    UPS charge               $56.75 | 1/8" Plywood              $3.54
    Black Fuel Tubing          $.84 | .032 x 4 x 10 Aluminum     $.84
    1/4" Plywood              $6.25 | 3/32" Plywood             $6.04
    2 ea 2 oz Zap            $12.54 | Paint                    $55.00
    8 ea Control Horns        $2.06 | Book - Air Force Colors   $8.35
    2 ea 3/32x4x36 Balsa      $3.57 | 1/4x4x36 Balsa            $3.20
    2 ea 1/16x12x24 Plywood  $10.46 | 2 ea 1/8x36 Piano Wire    $1.37
    12 ea 1/8x4x36 Balsa     $17.01 | 8 ea 1/8x1/4 Bass         $2.65
    .60 size motor mount      $3.27 | 4 ea 3/8 x 3/8 x 36 Try   $3.29
    2 ea 1/2 x 1/8 x 36 Bals  $1.79 | 2 ea Zap CA              $12.16
    6x32 Socket Head Screws    $.72 | 2 ea 8 oz K&B Clear      $10.60
    1/8 Round Brass Tube       $.37 | 2 ea 2x4 Balsa Block      $5.54
    1x3 Balsa Block           $1.43 | 1-1/2x2 Balsa Block       $1.26
    2 ea Rx Charge Receptacl  $7.03 | 1x2 Balsa Block           $1.94
    2x3 Balsa Block           $3.41 | 4 ea bellcranks           $1.58
    4 ea landing gear straps   $.84 | 2.5mmx6 Socket Hd Screws  $1.31
    12 minute Epoxy           $8.35 | 8x10 Photo               $10.00
    Recoil Fuel Tubing        $3.66 | 3.25" Smo Contor wheels   $8.74
    8 oz 30 Min Epoxy         $9.64 | 3 ea 1/8 Music Wire       $2.05
    Locking Glow Clip         $5.06 | 2 ea 3 ft. Fuel Line      $4.08
    2 Quick Fill Fuel Valves $17.24 | 1/2x3x36 Balsa            $3.47
    4 ea 4-40 Blind Nuts       $.47 | 8 ea 4-40x3/4 Sck Hd Scr  $1.30
    3 ea 3/32 Music Wire      $1.26 | 8 ea 6-32x3/4 Sck Hd Scr  $1.30
    3 ea 1/8 Music Wire       $2.05 | 14 ea 1/16x3x36 Balsa    $12.05
    #11 Exacto Blades         $1.42 | 16 ea 3/32x3/8x36 Balsa   $3.86
    14 ea 1/16x3x36 Balsa    $12.05 | 4 ea 3/8x1.5 Trlng Edge   $4.12
    4 ea 5/16x1.25 Trlng Edg  $3.23 | 8 ea 3/16x3/8x36 Balsa    $2.52
    4 ea 1/4x3/8x36 Balsa     $3.15 | Zap CA                    $6.08
    Z-Ends                    $3.45 | Wire                     $10.64
    Switches                  $2.71 | Heat Shrink Tubing        $1.88
    Banana Jacks               $.83 | 4-40 Screws               $1.25
    4-40 Nuts                 $1.25 | 2-56 Screws               $1.25
    2-56 Nuts                 $1.25 | 2 ea 8-32 Blind Nuts       $.42
    8 ea 8-32 Blind Nuts      $1.68 | Yard Stick                 $.54
    1 ea 10-32 x 2" Screw      $.08 | Spray Adhesive            $4.40
    8 ea Fender Washers        $.76 | 8 ea 6-32 Blind Nuts      $1.68
    20 ea C.G. Hold Downs     $5.20 | Dress Hooks                $.61
    8 oz Zip-Kicker Refill    $6.05 | 2 oz Slow Zap             $6.27
    2 ea 1/4 x 3 x 36 Balsa   $4.83 | 2 ea 1/8 x 3 x 36 Balsa   $3.15
    4 ea 1 x 3 x 12 Balsa     $7.98 | 8 ea 1/4 x 1/4 x 36 Bass  $4.62
    3 ea 3/16 x 12 Brass Tub  $1.10 | 3 ea 5/32 x 12 Brass Tub   $.95
    2 oz Zap CA               $8.82 | 2 ea 1/8 x 6 x 12 Ply     $3.89
    4 ea 3/4 x 5/8 Leading E  $4.54 | Dress Hooks                $.79
    12 ea 8x32 Nylon Screws   $1.51 | 10 ea 6-32 Blind Nuts     $2.10
    2 ea Vortec Bombs         $9.87 | 2 ea Vortec Releases     $13.73
    4 ea Threaded Rods        $1.87 | 2 ea Quick Links           $.74
    Super Shrink 46x15' Whit $26.80 | 2 ea Carbon Fiber Tape   $10.08
    Vinylwrite Custom Letter $13.25 | 2 ea SPST Switches        $4.81
    Fiberglass Resin          $9.75 | Dress Hooks               $1.58
    Shipping Box             $80.00 | 8 ea 1" brushes           $3.86
    12 ea 6-32x1 bolts, nuts  $1.13 | Marvel Mystery Oil        $1.00
    OS .45 FSR Rear Bearing  $15.10 | Spackle                   $4.40
    Z-7 Debonder              $4.08 | Strapping Tape            $3.02
    Tack Rag                   $.70 | Stainless Steel Solder     $.85
    Silver Solder             $1.74 | Masking Tape              $1.23
    1 Quart K&B Thinner       $7.30 | Futaba Servo Pig Tail     $4.10
    Futaba Servo Screws       $2.32 | K&B Primer Catalyst       $5.71
    Black Baron Thermometer   $5.38 | K&B Primer                $5.71
    8 oz Black Baron Ironex   $3.61 | 16 oz Balsarite           $4.62
    Lock Tite                 $2.75 | 3M 77 Adhesive            $4.96
    15 ft Micafilm           $21.01 | 2 oz Slo ZAP CA           $6.35
    Low Tack Shelf Paper      $1.93 | 2 oz ZAP CA               $6.35
    JR Servo Pigtail          $4.03 | 4 ea JR Servo Gear Sets  $11.45
    .02" Music Wire for Skid   $.13 | Paint Mask               $22.25
    Paint Mask Filters        $2.93 | Fishing Leader            $1.25
    Paint Mask Filters        $9.44 | Paint Brushes             $3.12
    Lacquere Thinner          $8.80 | Flex Masking Tape         $3.71
    Futaba Trainer Cord      $15.85 | 3/16" x 36" Tri Stock      $.63
    Sandpaper                 $8.15 | Tack Cloth                $1.19
    Wet/Dry Sandpaper         $2.49 | Silver Lacquere Paint     $4.20
    2 ea Glow Plugs           $4.20 | 2 ea Glow Plugs           $5.83
    Silver Thread             $1.84 | Needles                    $.89
    Pleating Pins             $1.56 | Silk Pins                 $1.56
    3 packs Heat Shrink Tubi  $2.52 | 2 ea 10x6 3 Blade Props   $5.53
    Safety Hub                $3.76 | 30 ea 2 x 1/4 HO Track S  $2.05
    5/32 Round Brass Tubing    $.42 | 3/16 Round Brass Tubing    $.47
    2-1/4" 3 Bld Spinner      $6.56 | Spinner Adaptor 5/16x24   $2.35
    3 Blade 12.5 x 7 Prop     $7.95 | Heavy Hub-1/4"            $4.71
    8 ea Paint Brushes        $4.20 | 5 ea Cutting Wheels       $5.60
    2 ea 10 x 6 Props         $2.94 | 2 ea 11 x 7 Props         $3.32
    2 ea 1/6 DGA Pilot Kits  $18.80 | 2-1/4" 3 Bld Spinner      $6.56
    2-1/4" 2 Bld Spinner      $6.56 | 2-1/4" 2 Bld Spinner      $6.56
    ------------------------------------------------------------------ $1,096.17

But try and remember - I'm not completely done yet.
I still need 2 more gunners and tail guns and landing gear
struts and...

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    ... and I thought I kept fairly good accounts!
    
    Promise, that some day, you'll tell us how you did it!
    
    ajai
    
    

    Kay, Think of the time you spend keeping track of the costs.
    If you would have spent that time building etc. you would have had
    the BJ's done months ago ;-)
    
    
    Tom

Kay,

I started to itemize the cost of an airplane once (on the scratchbuilt MiG-3)
and, in a short time I tired of the game, in no small part due to the realiza-
tion that I really didn't _want_ to know the extent of the investment I was
casting to the fates with every takeoff.  The pressures of campaigning a scale
aircraft (or _any_ airplane, for that matter) are numerous enough without my 
adding to them in this manner.  :B^)

To each his own but I've learned that, for me, knowing my investment precisely
in terms of money and/or time is something I prefer to forego (and not even 
think about when flying).

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Kay, With that level of investment aren't the plane worth a couple
    of decent engines. I saw your ships Sunday and they looked good
    but to me the observed lack of power hurt your flight presentation.
    
    
    Tom

    Hot damn, we have another celebrity in our midst.

    Today's (7/90) issue of Scale RC Modeler has an article on the
    Berliner/Joyce and this guy named Kay Fisher; more than half the
    article by Norm Goyer is on Kay, less than half on the prototype.

    Even says good words like, "Kay is an excellent builder with a 
    great eye for details".