Conference vmszoo::rc

    Tom,
    
    Should we (or is there a way to) move all glass related replies
    here from topic 288??
    
    I haven't tried the method you've described but I have heard of
    it, though not in any detail.  It do indeed sound like an easier
    way to go...I may give 'er a shot on my next bird (if I ever get
    off my dead A** and build one).
    
    I just acquired a 75" Mark's Models Masterscale P-51B with Malcom
    hood which I may get excited enough about to get busy in the shop.  
    Sometimes it's almost a curse to have one or more reliable birds going
    (I have three) as you can get complacent and lose incentive to keep
    building...but, when I do, I'll try yer' method, starting with the
    tail-feathers to see how I like it.  I'm quite satisfied with the
    method I've been using but if yer's saves time/effort and still
    produces the desired quality result, I'll switch in a heartbeat!
    
    Adios,	Al

    Hey Tom, would you mind on expanding on the sentence...
    
    		" A fuse can be done in one piece. "
    
    Even with the tail section already completed, I can't imagine
    using one piece for the whole fuse (unless I cut that 1 piece into
    3 or 4 smaller pieces...)
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    	Jeff, I'm not sure if you have every covered with cloth but,
    the fiberglass cloth that is used is extremely flexable. The
    best way to cover a ship is to first cover the vertical and horizontal
    stabs then cover the fuse when this is done and dry then install
    the stabs into the fuse.  The fuse can be covered is one piece of
    finerglass by setting the fuse on a table turtle deck up. Drape
    the cloth over the fuse. Using the clear epoxy paint or thinner
    epoxy brush the adhesive over the covering. The adhesive will
    penitrate the weave of the cloth and adhere the cloth to the balsa.
    Procees with brushing the adhesive into the cloth and work your
    way down one side of the fuse. When you reach the bottom corner
    lay the fuse on it's side and continue the application of adhesive
    to cloth until one half of the bottom is covered. At this point
    you will trim off the excess. Now go back to the side that has
    yet to be adhered to the balsa and repeat the brushing process.
    When you get to the bottom overlap the cloth at the center seem.
    Let it all dry and then add a second coat.
    
    					Ton
     of the fuse start brushing the other side. When this is finished
    
    

    I finally spent a few minutes working on the SS40-Bipe last nite.
    I'm about ready to join the bottom wing halves. I love my palm
    sander, I got the leading edges into shape in 10 minutes.

    I've got a question for those of you who have built SS40s: 

    Are you supposed to put the fiberglass tape on the top and bottom
    of the wing, or just the top? My plans don't say anywhere, but
    seems to indicate the top only. The bottom of the wing has a 1/16"
    ply sheet at the trailing edge to take the wing bolt. Is that
    supposed to be recessed in, or sit on the surface (if on the
    surface, then the glass will bump over the edges). I at least have
    to flatten the center section a bit since the ply goes over the
    dihedral. Is this similar to or different from other Sportster
    designs? 

    Dave 

    
    	Glass both the top and bottom with tape, Dave.  After you get that
    in, worry about the bottom fairings and protection for the bolts.
    Please don't built it without the glass tape on both sides of the
    wing!
    

    Dave,
    	If you plan to try Bill's full speed landing manuver so nicely
    demonstrated at lunch today, I'd build that wing strong.  Seriously,
    the glass should be top and bottom with the bolt plate and fairings
    going on afterward.  I recessed the bolts through the fairings by
    cutting holes with a brass tube.  This makes nice clean cuts in
    the soft balsa where as a drill will tear it.  Lesson learned from
    the SS20.  I glassed my wings past the fuse sides and then faired
    in the height difference with light filler and a large putty knife.
    Do the bottom wing the same way you did your SS20 wing.  By the
    way, how does the gear go on on the bipe?  Is it on the fuse like
    the Aeromaster?

    
> the edge frays horribly
    
    Yep, I've had that trouble too.  I draw a thin line of CA where
    I want to cut the glass tape and then cut along that line.  Presto!
    No more frayed edges.

    Dave,
    	I use Fred Z's method to prevent fraying.  I use thick CA and
    put down a very small amount and immediately follow by wiping it
    with a paper towel.  THen I cut down the middle of the line and
    no fraying!  Before doing this, I had all sorts of problems that
    required lots of sanding to correct.  I tried the CA attachment
    method that Great Planes recommends on my Electrostreak.  It worked
    great and saved having to wait for epoxy to dry.  It didn't take
    much CA and it was easier than the Epoxy method I have used in the
    past.  The only problem is the vapors and you have that one licked
    with your fans.  I need some ventillation in my shop.
    
    Charlie
    

re:     < Note 813.68 by LEDS::WATT >
                              -< CA all the Way >-

    Please elaborate on the "CA attachment method" or point me to
    the note that explains it. The instructions with the SS40-Bipe
    recommend using polyester resin to attach the glass cloth.

    Dave

    When I fiberglass the center section of a wing it's somewhat different
    that what you guy's have been talking about. To start I put a piecs
    of masking tape onto the glass cloth. This stops the fraying. I
    begin the glueing by attaching the cloth using CA to the entire
    rear of the wing. Next I mix up some epoxy and spread a thin coat
    on the bottom of the center joint. The cloth is wrapped over this
    epoxy. The epoxy is then squeeged(sp) into the cloth and the excess
    pushed towards the leading edge of the wing. I do this all the way
    around the winguntil I reach the top. Usually a second mixing of
    epoxy is needed to cover the top of the wing. Now I trim off the
    cloth at the trailing edge that had been CAed. The epoxy on the
    top is spread and the cloth (still one solid piece) is layed down
    on the top. The squeege(sp) of the epoxy is done and all excess
    is scraped off on the wing at the trailing edge. I then let the
    epoxy cure and then trim and sand the trailing edge of the wing.
    
    
    
    
    Tom

    The CYA method is the same as Tom descirbes except you tack the
    trailing edge and let it set, then pull the cloth dry over the wing
    and around the bottom.  THen spread THIN CA over the cloth, starting
    with the center.  It spreads out by itself and you just add enough
    to saturate the cloth.  The stuff makes a prolific amount of vapor,
    much more than normal since you are spreading it out over a large
    area.  Don't breath it or let it get into your eyes.  Continue the
    CA treatment all around the wing, pulling the cloth tight as you
    go.  The great thing about this is you are done and ready to sand
    as soon as you get around to the trailing edge.  No waiting for
    the epoxy to dry to do the other side.  I did my last plane this
    way and I like it better than epoxy.  You don't even use very much
    CA on a normal size job.  Probably 1/4 oz or so.  The last couple
    of Great Planes kits I have built have suggested this method with
    a slight variation.  They have you spray a light coat of 3M contact
    adhesive on first to hold the cloth in place.  I found this unnecessary
    and I didn't have any of that stuff handy.  The final results were
    better than I get with epoxy unless I do two coats which blows another
    day waiting for it to cure.
    
    Charlie
    

    I want to use polyester resin over the cloth to get a smooth
    finish. Will that go on over the CA if I use CA to glue the
    entire cloth down?

    Well Guy's I have a little clue for ya,  I use 5 minute epoxy
    for the job. Also if one uses a straight edge of wood for the
    squeege you get a very smooth finish.
    
    
    Tom
    
    P.S. I'm glad someone could understand my description. I almost
    couldn't after I wrote it.....

re:    < Note 813.73 by HEFTY::TENEROWICZT >

>   Well Guy's I have a little clue for ya,  I use 5 minute epoxy
>   for the job. Also if one uses a straight edge of wood for the
>   squeege you get a very smooth finish.

    Here we have the fastest hands in the east. I'm sure you can
    do it that way, but if you take a moment too long, or the wife walks
    in or the phone rings, you'll have a royal mess of epoxy glop! Once
    that stuff STARTS to set up, you're dead!

    I wish a good 30 minute epoxy was readily available, I know some
    of the mail order houses have it, but Tower doesn't and I don't
    order much from anybody else.

    Dave

    Yep, and as Charlie said you can use CA only with no epoxy or resin.
    When done simply use microballoons filler for a smooth and neat
    surface over all of the CA'd glass and the small joint where the
    glass ends on the wing. It makes for a nice lightweight strong
    joint.
    
    
    						Dave
     

        Re:< Note 813.72 by LEDS::HUGHES "Dave Hughes (LEDS::HUGHES) NKS1-1/E3 291-7214" >

        Dave,
        
                If you  are  going to use polyester resin you may as well
        use it to fill the glass cloth! That's what I always do.
        
        Anker

    RE .72,

    Dave,

    I use EXACTLY the same method as Charlie, when I'm done, I spread a real
    thin coat of somehting like the white filler stuff (I forget its name,
    model magic filler, or something like that) over the cloth and then
    sand.  You have to do it this way, since the dried CYA is REAL hard to
    sand, and you don't want to wear away the cloth, anyway.  Use a piece of
    wax paper, or saranwrap (my new favorite) to smooth the cloth down as
    you apply the CYA, this way you insure good balsa-to-cloth contact.

    On the subject of SaranWrap, I'm building my newest plane using this,
    instead of wax paper, to cover my plans. You can see through it much
    better (although transparancy was never really a problem), but the big
    win is in separating the glued components from the SaranWrap.  It works
    much better than wax paper, as it never shreds or tears like wax paper
    can.   Anyone else ever used it ?


    Randy (Trapped in H*LL, thanks a lot, (8^D) )

>    I wish a good 30 minute epoxy was readily available, I know some
>    of the mail order houses have it, but Tower doesn't and I don't
>    order much from anybody else.

Dave - I just place an order this week from Tower and I said I wanted slow
epoxy and couldn't find the part number - no problem she ordered some
Loctite brand for me - 30 minute 2 part epoxy.  I expect it any day now.

Just cause it ain't in the catalogue doesn't mean they don't have it!

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    
    Dave, I don't know if it was stressed enough - I'm pretty sure
    polyester WILL NOT cure over CA.  Make sure you check the
    compatibility beforehand.  Also - I avoid using CA on any surfaces
    I will have to sand _or_ paint, because of all the adhesives
    (epoxy, ambroid, polyester, etc) I think CA is the toughest to sand.
    To each his own, eh?
    
    - Another tip -
    I used heavy cloth last time I glassed a center section (seems like
    about 20 years ago).  I was worried about having a "step" where the
    edge of the cloth was, and having to fill and feather out to hide it.
    So I first sanded the area where the cloth would be laying.  Just a
    little, about the thickness of the cloth itself.  In fact, I think
    it's best to have the cloth slightly below the balsa surface so you
    can have a little filler on top of the glass.  The filler sands at
    about the same rate as the balsa and the sanding job was very simple.
    
    I liked using polyester resin to glass the center section, I used less
    hardener than usual to give a little extra time.  But the job was
    done in no time.  Can't afford that phone call at the wrong moment
    though!
    
    How come it seems that every time I write a reply I realize it's in
    the wrong topic when I'm done?  Oh well, you guys are doing it too.
    
    Bill

    Dave,
    
    	You should try some epoxy from Tom's in Chelmsford. It's
    called Northeast Hobby Products. Great stuff. I've used just about
    every brand of epoxy on the market and still go back to this brand.
    if time is a problem you can do the application in two steps. The
    bottom first and then the top. Use two pieces of cloth and just
    overlay the leading edge. Once you do it a couple of times it's
    really easy.
    	I used to have a buddy in NH who swore that the 30 minute epoxy
    soaked into the wood better than the five minute stuff. What I've
    found is that this is not the case. The Viscosity of the epoxy 
    determines how it soaks into the wood not the working time. 
    	I don't like using the CA method because of the fumes and the
    filling coat needed. For me the epoxy method is a one step application.
    If feathered correctly no ridge is evident. A slight sanding and
    your all set for covering.
    
    
    
    
    Tom

    Gee, we have a mini-topic within a topic. It's related to
    Super Sportsters because I asked a question about building
    my SS, but it's turned out to be general interest.

    I think I'll start a new base note about application of
    glass cloth to wings, and put in pointers to the last few
    replies. Some good stuff here.

    After all this advice, I think I'm going to do what the
    plans recommend - polyester resin. I'm not too concerned
    about weight, and it's easy to apply and sand.

    Bill's idea about recessing the glass cloth is a good one,
    except in this case it's being applied over 1/16 sheeting
    so there's not much room to indent without sanding right
    through it. I may try it just a bit, though.

    Thanks for the good ideas!

    Dave

    Dave, The idea you talked of about spraying the cloth with a
    contact cement type adhesive and then adhereing the cloth to 
    the wing with CA (or epoxy,resin) sounds funny to me. I say
    that demonstrated on a Satillite City tape a few years back and
    wondered about it. Aren't you really incasing the contact cement
    inside the glue joint your prodicing with the CA? Is this
    as secure as without. Or does it really matter?
    One of the guys I knew in CXO back in 85 didn't fiberglass his
    center sections on his gliders. Rather he glued carbon fibers
    across the joint in a few locations and then just glassed the
    entire wing with .06 oz. cloth. Randy Renolds was the guy. He
    was known for his Zoommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm launches. Makes you think?
    Myself, I'd still rather fiberglass.
    About the way I do it as you squeege the epoxy and it flows out
    of the sides I get a fillet of epoxy that smooths out the transition
    from the wood sheeting to the glass cloth. very little sanding
    or filling is ever required.
    
    Tom

    Don't forget, you can thin  epoxy with 91% rubbing alcohol.  Just
    a few drops after you make the primary mixture.  Thinned epoxy soaks
    into glass and wood better and I believe it is just as strong when
    it cures....sure is just as tough to sand!!
    
    This was the method I used before I found polyester resin.
    
    cheers,
    jeff

    I've been using some of the Locktite Epoxy Finishing Resin. This is
    a two part epoxy of some sort that you mix similaryly to regular epoxy
    (50/50 resin - hardener). It's much thinner than regular epoxy and 
    squeejes (sp?) into the cloth nice and easy. It also seems to get 
    pretty hard. The biggest thing that I like about this over polyester is
    that there is no where near as much oder.

                     !
                   --+--
G. Schrader     o___<0>___o    CSS::SCHRADER
                  *  *  *

    I concur with .3, the Loctite resin is great stuff.  A bit expensive,
    but definitely worth it.  It is much easier to apply than polyester
    resin and I believe it is stronger.  Try it - you'll like it!
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim
    

I have used the PIC Laminating Epoxy and that is also good. The PIC Glass is
very good, tight structure and smooth finish. 

Remember there is no strength in  the resin, it is all in the glass/carbon
etc.. The resin bonds the cloth to the surface but adds weight, so the less
resin used the better.

John.

    I'm gonna continue the discussion even though it belongs elsewhere.
    Dave, I don't use Polyester because it doesn't like CA, Epoxy or
    almost anything.  It does sand easier than CA or Epoxy but if you
    do the CA or Epoxy properly, you don't need to sand it much at all.
    If you don't want to use CA, I would recommend Envirotex epoxy which
    is available at Summerville Lumber.  You can thin it a little to
    lower the viscocity and let it flow.  You get a very smooth result.
    My only gripe is the time it takes to set and the requirement for
    a second coat to really get it smooth.  THat's what I have used
    on most of my planes.  I have only used the CYA method once with
    good results.  I spent 10 minutes applying it, 10 minutes with my
    eyes watering, 5 minutes sanding it, 10 minutes filling it with
    microfill and I was done.  It's as smooth as any of my epoxy jobs.
    
    Charlie
    

    Well, I decided to use the polyester resin approach. I had it
    on hand, and it's easy to mix and use. It's thin enough to soak
    into the wood a bit and soak through the cloth easily. I applied
    a coat to the bare wood, then applied the cloth, rubbed it on with
    a piece of waxed paper, and applied another coat of resin over it
    to fill in the weave and leave a smooth surface. It sands easily.
    I used the full 6" width of the cloth instead of cutting it to 4"
    as the instructions said. By the way,I used the method of running
    a bead of hot CA along the cut line to avoid fraying when cutting
    the cloth - works like a champ!

    I glassed the top and bottom surface of both wings, although
    it was not called for on the top wing.

    I applied a layer of Goldberg Model Magic filler over it to blend
    in the edges and fill any small irregularities. (I just decided
    to start another note about wood fillers, so don't tell me your
    favorite filler here, go there.) I haven't sanded that yet, we'll
    see how it comes out.

    Dave Hughes

I have a few questions on the K&B polyester covering epoxy. I have read Al's
procedure on using the materials and I know that later in this topic that a
question of the number of drops that should be put in the resin came up. SOooo -

I mixed my first couple of ounces out and added 8 drops per ounce. I found that
it was a bit tacky even a couple of days after putting on the glass cloth (K&B
.6oz). Last night I ventured to completing the top of the wing - I decided to go
above the 8-10 drops per ounce average and put in about 14 drops. I had no
problems in getting all the work done before the resin started to go off. A
couple of hours later it was dry to touch. This morning I took a bit of
sandpaper to it to feather the edges. It is still rubbery - I was using about
150 grade sandpaper - I know that it was suggested that the high quality Alum
Oxide paper be used but I have found it difficult to get it. Anyway as I try to
sand the edges down the resin becomes tacky and the sandpaper startes loading up
and I get some horrible black marks (from the, guess what, black colored
sandpaper) on the glass surface. Am I starting to sand too soon (7-9+ hours) ?
Does the resin need a lot more of the hardner than specified ? And does it sand
as easily when completly dry with the extra hardner added ?

I know that after putting the glass down and taking off the excess resin via the
roll of paper I should put another coat of resin on but I am afraid I need some
support here ! I don't want a layer of sticky resin to cope with. 

Apart from this stick situation - the general covering is great. I can see it in
its final glory. Al, what do 'ye think ? 


Eric();
    

    Eric,
    	I've had the same damn problem with polyester.  I think the main
    problem with my efforts has been temperature.  (Too low)  My shop is in
    my basement and I keep it about 65 degrees year round.  This is not
    warm enough for proper quick cure of polyester.  I have switched to
    using Epoxy and I'm much happier with the results.  For either one, I
    would recommend some sort of heat source if your shop is not above 70
    degrees f.  You might try putting your wing in a warm spot for a day
    and see if it sets up.  It should not badly load the paper if it's
    ready to sand.  It is not unusual to have a waxy coating on the surface
    of polyester.  It is in the resin to keep the air off, I believe while
    it is curing.  You can remove it with Eric's famous Resin Wacker.
    
    Charlie
    

    Charlie,
    
    If it needs a warm environment to cure that may just be it as I think
    the temperature is not nearly warm enough. I thought of putting it near
    a heat source but recalled how some fiberglass cowls I made became
    soft. I will try putting the fuse & wings in a warm room and see how
    things improve over a day or so.
    
    I will be glad to get a surface that I can sand easily - with little or
    no loading of the sandpaper - since the surface I had before the glass
    was good and I am expecting a super finish with the K&B epoxy - and
    won't stop till I get it. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Eric();

Check first to see if you were using finishing resin, or
laminating resin.  If its laminating resin, you are getting the
right thing since its made to remain tacky so you can do
additional lay-up.

If its finishing resin, then the soft surface could be the
aforementioned wax...it needs to be cleaned off as described.  If
that doesn't fix it, your problem is either old catalyst or not
enough heat.

For heat, I generally put my spotlight that's above my bench
up to high and blast the surface for a few hours to get it to
harden.  The surface temperature should be above 70 degrees. In
the summer, I'll just leave it outside for a while and that will
get it.  Smaller parts are left on top the water heater
overnight. 

Actually, 14 drops/ounce sounds suspicious to me; I think you may
have a problem with the catalyst.  The 8 drops that is specified
should be more than enough.  I've kicked off several ounces under
ideal conditions with just a couple of drops.  

    Re: .361, Eric,
    
    I _ALWAYS_ over catalyze polyester resin if only because I'd rather
    have it 'go off' tooo soon than not at all.  If anything, this makes it
    easier to sand simply because it's harder/more fully cured.  I too had
    some cureing problems when doing the MiG-3 repair/restoration last
    December/January and I tend to agree with Charlie that the primary
    contributor to my problem was the temperature, even though I kept the
    shop warm while I was in it.  I'm not sure that humidity might also
    play a part.  I believe that polyester works best the warmer/dryer the
    outside air, understanding that this may be a disadvantage to some of
    us at certain times of the year.  However, Gene Barton sent me some
    polyester he uses when I was having my problem; it is, per Gene, a high
    quality boat resin and his only admonition was to shake/stir it well
    before mixing due to a high wax content.  Since K&B has no such
    instruction on their container, I'm led to believe one of two things:
    1.) that it contains considerably less wax...or  2.) that it _should_
    be shaken/stirred well before mixing.  Both could very likely be the
    case so I suggest you shake/stir the resin well before measuring it
    into your mixing cup then catalyze it at least 12-drops of catalyst per
    ounce.  Hopefully, this will cause a full, hard cure and solve half of
    yer' problem.
    
    The other half of the scenario, i.e. sandability, has _ONLY_ one cure
    and that's the sandpaper itself!  Aluminum (aluminium to you UK'ers) or
    silicon oxide paper, preferably the former, is the ONLY sandpaper that
    will produce the desired results without the loading problem.  I
    patently guarantee that you'll experience that gummy, loading behavior
    with any other type of paper.  The job _can_ be done with other than
    the recommended paper but the aggration level, not to mention quantity
    of sanpaper used,  _WILL_ be quite high.
    
    As Charlie mentions, many modelers feel that epoxy resins minimize
    these frustrations at the cost of much longer cure times but yer'
    committed at this time and must (or at least _should_) finish up with
    polyester.  If the prospect of grinding off a second coat is daunting
    to you, try the recommendations above and make up a test panel of some
    sort, applying glass cloth just as you did on the model, following it
    with a second coat, then prove to yer'self whether it's gonna work for
    you or not.  I should mention that the hard, smooth, shiny second coat
    will probably laugh at 150-grit paper; you'll want to start with at
    least 80, yes 80-grit...just be gentle in areas of thin coverage and
    work progressively down to the finer grades bearing in mind the fact
    that yer' objective is to remove ALL the resin you can without cutting
    into the cloth itself.  Excessive weight from a glass/resin finish is
    _*ALWAYS*_ the result of too little sanding...this is why I so strongly
    recommend you make whatever effort is required to obtain some aluminum
    oxide sandpaper.  BTW, though this paper is more expensive, it's really
    cheaper in the long run as a piece of it lasts virtually indefinitely!
    
    Should you still be apprehensive about using a second coat of resin, go
    straight to the K&B epoxy primer.  Brush on a fairly heavy first coat
    and SAND IT ALL OFF!  Then spray on the second and, if required, third
    coats, again sanding it all off except for the little that fills the
    grain and other depressions...when down to the ptoper level of sanding,
    there should only be a thin, milky-white patina of the primer
    remaining.  On the final [sprayed] coat of primer, I spray on a light
    coat and sand gently son the airframe is mostly white but the
    structure, grain, joints, etc. _can_ be seen through the translucent
    coating.  From here, yer' ready to apply color.  Oh, BTW, I've never
    had any curing problems with either the (K&B) primer or paint.  The
    primer dries quickly and the job goes LOTS faster than it may sound.
    Sanding the primer may be done dry with alum-oxide ow wet with
    wet-or-dry as you prefer (I like to wet sand at this stage) but be
    aware that you must dry the surface frequently to keep track of where
    you are.  A big plus to wet sanding is that it keeps the [sanding] dust
    down...on the minus side, you'll go through lots of paper towels or
    whatever wiping off the sanding residue and drying the surface.  I
    still prefer wet sanding but, if you prefer to dry sand it, well and
    good but you should _still_ finish up with a wet sanding with fine
    (600) wet-or-dry to remove the sanding marks as much as possible.
    
    Best of luck and be sure to keep us posted as to yer' progress. 
    I had _NO_ problem whatever
    with this resin
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

    Re: last several,
    
    I forgot to mention that I don't worry about whatever wax might be on
    the surface of the resin after curing as it vanishes after the first
    coupla' stroke of the sandpaper.  I believe the K&B polyester yer'
    using has quite a low wax content anyway to accomodate additional coats
    and function as both a surfacing _and_ a finishing resin.  In any
    event, it's not necessary to locate/obtain any exotic chemical type
    remover since, as I've said, whatever wax residue as might be left
    behind is quickly dealt with by the sanding operation.  However, it
    _IS_ important that you sand between each coat, even a light, careful
    sanding after application of the glass cloth helps ensure that the
    second coat will adhere well.  Allow me to add here that the difference
    between a really good and a mediocre finish is SANDPAPER and the number
    of hours you employ this most important of all finishing tools.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

	Well I went out  and got a small  heater to  warm up the  hobby room.
	I decided to go for it and pour on the final  coat of polyester resin
	onto the fuse and wing. After doing this I put the whole lot into the 
	heated room, watching it every now and then.  A couple of hours later 
	the  resin was  hard  enough to  start sanding -  what a relief. Also 
	invested  in some 60  grade sandpaper  (I managed to get Alum Oxide). 
	So I am back on track to getting that superb finish. 

	'ye have  to be really  careful  with that  grade 60 !! And as stated 
	before it is very hard to see the cloth  during the sanding  - but we 
	are being careful !

	Now its down to lots of sanding & patience.

	Thanks for those replies, guys. You saved my day.

	
	Eric();

    Al mentioned one important thing that we all usually fail to do:  A
    test panel!  If you're like me, you always screw up the first time you
    do anything.  (At least it doesn't come out as well as after you have
    practice.)  A test panel can save lots of grief since you can toss it
    if you don't get the desired results.  Keep trying until you do and the
    results will be A-1 on your carefully constructed and sanded model.  I
    can't say that I've always followed this advice myself, but I do think
    it makes good sense!  All of these finishing techniques require
    refinement and skill only acquired by practice.
    
    Charlie
    

         Hi Guys, 

         Just a short bit on my fiberglass experiences lately...

         I completed an ACRO WOT there a while ago and decided to go for the
         fiberglass finish. This was my first real attempt at the fiberglass - I
         sort of have my ACROMASTER half covered but have put in on the shelf
         for a while. The instructions with the ACRO WOT suggested that one
         leave the tail feathers off till the fuse is glassed if this is the
         chosen method. This was good advice as it makes those curves easier to
         sand and getting the correct shape easier as well - especially with
         that heavy duty sandpaper. I picked up some of the Alum. Oxide paper,
         80 grit I think, and as you said Al ye' need it. Anyway I covered the
         fuse in two pieces or cloth.  The first coat or resin went on (and most
         came off with the toilet roll) to attach the fiberglass. By the way I
         am using K&B products - .6oz cloth etc. The second coat went on and all
         was beginning to take shape. After a lot of sanding, reducing to 1200
         grit wet sanded, I had a lovely shiny glass surface. During the sanding
         I managed to cut through the fiber in one place but that was easily
         (read lots of work) patched. I am impressed with the finish - what more
         could one ask for (Hhhhmmmm). Anyway the remainder of the plane's surfaces were
         tissue & doped. Finally I put the tail feathers on and primed it all.
         After _more_ sanding the overall finish was looking fantastic. I am now
         ready for the painting. But I think that all in all, despite the smells
         of the resin and all the dust (when dry sanding) it's a very satisfying
         finish. Beats the hell out of any other finish I have seen. I might
         even go that way from now on with any other planes I build. 

         I went out and got a nice small compressor as the one I borrowed had no
         tank on it and although it was satisfactory - it was on all the time
         and made a racket (read _negative_ neighbor points). Whatever about
         wife points lowering with the dust - the neighbors being a bit close
         would object eventually or even sooner. Which reminds me that its time
         for a bar-b-q, yes we do indulge in this pleasant pasttime in good old
         Ireland. Anyway, the compressor has a tank, cut-off switch, regulator
         and all the usual jazz - the shop included some fitting and plumbers
         tape at no extra charge. So I can spray away most of the time in piece
         and quiet except when the pressure drops, when it comes on for a while.
         I will probably be spraying everything in sight !!!! The output can be
         regulated anywhere from 0-100+ psi. Before borrowing the other pump it
         was a case of back and forth to the garage, well a selection of garages
         around town, to get the spare car tire filled with air. As you can well
         image it was a pain in the neck having to get up and replentish the air
         in the tube, especially in the middle of a session. Gladly I can say no
         more. So I am looking forward to painting in the next few days/weeks.

         You may recall that I had a problem with the drying of the K&B resin -
         I did until Al and a few others suggested that I had the incorrect
         temperature in the area where the parts were curing. Well the blow
         heater that I got heats up the room to a good temperature and all dries
         out in the expected couple of hours. Generally temperatures on this
         part of the globe will be a good bit down  on the US average, the
         opposite if you are in Alaska I guess ! 

         Eric();

    

    Well, I am actually on the road to finishing my first real model in a
    long time...  (Sorry, I don't consider building gremlins in this
    category... :-)
    
    Anyways, it is an 80" Junkers CL-I; a WW1 (what else?) fighter.  It is
    stand way off scale, all wood fuse, foam core wings sheeted with
    balsa...  Time to think more about the covering..
    
    I am going to use Parson's fiberglass...  (Anyone have the number
    handy?)  But I am trying to decide how I am going to attach it...
    
    Tom T talks about using epoxy paint...  What he doesn't talk about is
    using colors; he only mentions using clear.  I am wondering if anyone
    has tried using a color to attach the glass, then just shot a clear
    coat over the top of it...  No primer; the weave can show..  How did
    it work out??  How did the seams come out??
    
    I guess I need to do some test pieces as well..
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

I used the paint method and it worked real well. If weave isn't a
problem, then I'd say it would be the perfect method. Filling the weave
is where the weight is.

One word of warning... Since the paint dries slowly, make sure you iron
out any wrinkles. They have enough "spring" to lift. The seams
disappeared!

Jim

    Save yourself the time and effort required to paint.
    
    Use 21st Century Fabric, it is a pre-painted fabric.  Unbelieveable
    results can be had with no more effort that ironing it on (follow their
    recommendations on package) just like any other film.
    
    I was preparing to go the glass and paint method on my new 1/3 scale
    extra.  But when I checked out a plane covered with this stuff I was
    totally amazed.  I swore that the plane had been glassed and painted. 
    These results were achieved by a guy who is an average quality builder.
    
    Check it out... could save you time, effort, and cash.
    
    Chris
    

    Just remember that the iron on fabrics add nearly no stiffness to the
    wing.  They are insufficient for some open frame construction.
    
    Will
    

    I don't wan't to bash a manufacturer, BUT... I used the 21st Century
    painted fabric last year, and found it to be the worst covering I ever
    used.  It wrinkles while you're looking at it!  I'll never use it
    again.
    
    Its also VERY heavy stuff and thick enough that it shows seams
    prominently.
    
    Let the controversey begin!
    
    -Joe

    I don't like the epoxy paint method of glassing.  I use Envirotex epoxy
    thinned with alcohol following Dan Parson's instructions that come with
    his glass cloth.  I'm a plastic film guy because I hate the extra
    effort and weight of a paint job.  I don't care what you do, it will be
    heavier if you glass and paint.  I do like the resulting finish and the
    ding resistance you get with glass, but remember - light planes fly
    best!
    
    Charlie
    

    Re.44
    
    So far we are having good look with it here in the Midwest. The only
    wrinkles I have seen were when I applied it.  Those go away when you
    heat it and rub it down with a mitt or cotton balls.  None came back
    to haunt me.  The other guys whose planes are covered with it aren't
    having any trouble with wrinkles either.
    
    True, it is a bit heavier than film, but most iron-on fabric is as far
    as I can tell.  But, I can say it is lighter than glassing and then
    painting; plus it is a heck of a lot less work and expense.
    
    Anyway, no real contraversy, nothing works the same for everyone...
    
    Some of us just know how to apply it better than others! ;-)
    
    Cheers,

    Controversy!

    I spent a good part of the winter experimenting with alternative
    finishing methods(to film).
    
    I tried waterbased urethane, acrylic, and various enamels, lacquers,
    and epoxy based paints.  Although I did achieve some spectacular
    results with urethane applied over light fiberglass/epoxy, the time
    and effort was much greater than with film and was heavier.
    
    I have had the opportunity to see some *VERY* high quality German
    gliders that have film covered wings.  They are totally acceptable 
    in every respect.
    
    The secret to great film covering is surface prep and knowledge of
    how to apply the stuff.  I always inquire when I see a great covering
    job and can say that I have seen spectacular results with Monokote,
    Oracover and Ultracote over sheeted surfaces.
    
    I have an article in a German magazine showing/explaining how to use
    Oracover with a chemical adhesive activator instead of an iron over
    sheeted surfaces.  The end results shown in the pictures are great.
    Too bad Hartmut/Bernd aren't around to translate.
    
    I also recommend the use of light colors(white) on the top wing
    surface with stripes/trim for visibility.  White seems to handle
    the heat from sunlight the best.
    
    I still hate film, but it is by far the cheapest and easiest method
    I have tried.  If done well the results are very acceptable.

    I read an article recently about a test done to determine the lowest
    drag type of covering for an airfoil.  I think the work was done by
    NASA.  A single airfoil was tested in three conditions: bare metal,
    painted, and covered with plastic film.  It didn't give the make of the
    film, but somehow I got the impression it might have been Monokote or
    similar.  At any rate, the results were not intuitive.  It turned out
    the film covered airfoil had the lowest drag, followed by bare metal,
    with paint bringing up the rear.
    
    So, Paint = Heavy + More Drag
    
    Yuk!!!
    
    Makes me think twice about glassing and painting my Mustang.
    
    -Joe

    One thing I like about film is you can do a little at a time and it's
    clean and odor free.  Painting requires bigger time windows and
    protective equipment is a must!  I like the ding resistance of painted
    glass but I like the light weight of film covered balsa.  It's a
    difficult tradeoff if looks are at the top of the list.
    
    Charlie