Conference vmszoo::rc

    A lot of people in my club use Marvel Mystery oil, a few drops in
    the carb and flip the engine over several times.  It doesn't gum
    up the engine, as it is light and flammable and burns right out next
    time you start the engine.  After the last flight I remove the fuel
    line and run the engine until all raw fuel is burned out, then add
    the oil.  You can buy the stuff just about anywhere.
    							Bill
    
    P.S. Re .10 & .12 - Interesting idea -  that more nitro could let engine
      		  run cooler by allowing richer mixture @same performance!
    

Re: .many

After Run oil is a not just a good idea, it is essential if you run moderate 
amounts of nitro. Nitro is an acidic substance, a good after run oil is 
slightly alkaline. An after run oil has to either displace 
the acid or neutralize the acid.

A word of warning, some oils used as after run oils contain igniters; 
(substances that promote combustion), the drawback is that it can cause a "kick 
back" in 4 stroke engines during the first few minutes after starting each day 
and throw props. In two strokes it can cause a blown plug during the first 
flight or in extreme cases break a rod; (normally only in racing and high 
performance engines)

I would not recommend a rust inhibitor in mixed fuel, it is more effective to 
add the oil after the days flying activities. If you can get it the Glo Glyde 
oil is not only a good oil but also seconds as an excellent after run oil.

Useless bit of information for today:

Nitro is made by mixing Methane gas and Nitric acid under pressure and 
distilling the resulting substance to recover Nitro Methane. 

John.

        Re:< Note 156.17 by BERN01::GYSI >

                I have  two four-strokes, an O.S.FS20 and a Saito 45.  On
        neither of them  is  it  easy  or convenient to get after run oil
        into the engine because  the carb throat turns down.  And there's
        no way to get oil into the crank case. Any suggestions?
        
        Anker

    Re: .18
    
	I have a pair of FS40s.  I get after-run oil into them (Marvel mystery
    oil) by pumping it into the crankcase vent until the prop turns
    over.  That's the unexpected nipple in the back plate of the engine.
    (It is not for pressure, its there just to dump excess oil from
    the crankcase).  Plug the tube when you're done or it will all run
    out again.  You should see it pour out of the front bearings as
    the prop turns.
    
   	By the way, Marvel mystery oil seems to burn a hell of a lot better
    than feul, so when you start the day be damn careful.  I've been
    kicked hard when trying to start one of those little engines when
    there was still some of the oil left.
    
    	Enjoy.

>>  If you put it in the exhaust should you turn the engine over backwards?
>>
>>  Bye
>>  Kay R. Fisher
>   
>		Trick question eh?.....
>
>		bob

Not a trick question - Seems to me that turning the engine over would just
blow the oil out the exhaust?  Should I turn it forwards or backwards or doesn't
it matter.

              _!_
Bye        ----O----
Kay R. Fisher / \
 
==============================================================

    O.K. If you turn your engine backwards, then it will suck the oil
    from the exhaust into the cylinder. That is what you want to do.
    
    But more essential for an after run treatment is to oil the crankase
    (specially four strokes). So, don't forget the crankcase.
    
    Franz

>    But more essential for an after run treatment is to oil the crankase
>    (specially four strokes). So, don't forget the crankcase.
>    
>    Franz

I know there is a little nipple on the crankcase - but it's really hidden
under the carb and over the fuel pump.  Any easy way to get fuel in the 
crankcase?

              _!_
Bye        ----O----
Kay R. Fisher / \
 
==============================================================

Re: -.1
< I know there is a little nipple on the crankcase - but it's really hidden
< under the carb and over the fuel pump.  Any easy way to get fuel in the 
< crankcase?

That nipple is to vent the crank case and to allow surplus oil and other crap
to get out. It is a good idea to have a piece of tube to direct the crap out
of the model. If this is done this could be used to inject after run oil into 
the crank case and ultimately to the bearings. 

As far as oil in the head not getting to the bearings, that should not be a
problem if you turn the engine over a few times SLOWLY. On the compression
stroke the oil will be forced passed the ring and find its way to the crank and
bearings. I dont know of an ABC 4 stroke engine and no  ringed engine has a
perfect seal. 

John.

    
>> 80% castor-20% synthetic?
    
    	How does the engine run on 100% oil?  :-) Sorry Dan, couldn't resist.
    
    	I'd also avoid castor as after-run oil, it just gums up the works.
    	If you're using mystery oil or one of the other recommended
    	after-run oils, you shouldn't have any problem - why fool with
    	something that works?
    
    	Bill

    On the subject of after-run oils. What are some good products to use?
    I have heard everything from marvel mystery oil to WD-40 to automatic
    transmission fluid. Also, is there a proper procedure to use to insure
    that the oil used, gets to the proper places.
    
    
    The practice I use is this:
    
     1. Run engine with fuel disconnected till it dies.
     2. Add glow plug driver, and crank engine with electric starter till
        it no longer fires.
     3. Add about 10-15 drops of auto transmission fluid through carb.
     4. Crank engine with electric starter for 5-10 seconds.
    
    
    
    							Dave
     

    Dave the only items I've heard of is cranking the engine over
    while it's pointing down and storing the engine hanging down.
    
    Tom

    At the Scale Masters just past, I observed Bob Violett (who should know
    engines better, eh?) simply remove the glo-plug of his KBV .80, add
    several drops of an after-run oil packaged by Pacer/ZAP (I failed to
    get the product name), then replace the plug loosely and crank the
    engine for a few seconds with his starter.  This completed, he
    tightened the plug and went about his business.  The whole procedure
    probably took no more than a minute.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I've used Marvel Mystery Oil, which may be similar to automatic
    transmission oil (they're both red, anyway). This coats well and
    I think it's very good protection against rust. However, it makes
    a lot of smoke when starting the engine the next time, and I found
    that it produced a pretty heavy black carbon coating on my glow plugs
    after a while. This is available in small cans (like 3-IN-1 oil)
    that don't take up much room in the flight box.

    I now use WD40. It's a good rust inhibitor, coats well, and burns
    off clean when the engine is restarted. My only concern would be that
    it would evaporate or run off if the engine isn't run for a week
    or more, so if storing for longer than that I still use Marvel
    Mystery Oil. WD40 comes in a spray can with a thin straw attachment
    that lets you shoot it right in the carb. You can get it is small
    cans that don't consume much flight box space. I also use a trick
    I learned from somebody: I tape a soda straw to the side of the can
    to hold the thin red straw so I don't lose it. I'm always losing those
    things, but haven't lost one since using the soda straw trick.

    Dave
    

Al's comment in .15 is also what I do to all my engines. It's quick and simple.

I don't like WD40 if the engine is being stored for any length of time. As Dave 
says it has a nice spray and is excellent for washing out and engine.

Transmission oil has the disadvantage that it can also be a good point striper 
with some types of paint. Not the best if the engine is still in the model.

John

        Re:        <<< Note 289.17 by GIDDAY::CHADD "Pylon; the ultimate High." >>>

                Go down  to  your  local truck stop with a one gallon can
        and plunk down  $1 for a gallon of some of the best after-run oil
        money can buy -  diesel  fuel.  Another option is to dip into the
        big tank in the basement  and  get some fuel oil, which is almost
        identical to diesel fuel.
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    The key to preventing rust is to get ALL raw fuel out of the engine and
    to prevent any from getting in during storage.  For this reason, I
    leave my fuel line disconnected after defueling.  I lost a set of
    bearings once because fuel ran in when I pointed the nose down putting
    the plane in the basement.  Now, I connect a short piece of tubing
    between the pressure line and the feed line from the tank to seal up
    the tank system and prevent any left over fuel from getting to the
    engine.  I always run the engine dry by pulling the fuel line and
    letting the engine idle til it stops.  Then I put the Ni-starter back
    on and flip until it doesn't fire.  If I'm planning to fly soon, I use
    WD-40 as afterrun.  Otherwise, I use Marvel oil.  The engine kicks like
    a mule when I first start it if I use Marvel, but it seems to do a good
    job protecting the bearings.
    Charlie
    

As I've said before, I'm looking carefully at my process in an
effort to find out why I've had so much engine trouble.  I'll
believe any engine is junk, but when it happened to the OS .40FP,
I know there's a problem with the way I do things.

I searched on keywords, and while I know that some discussion has
been made on after-run procedures/oils, I couldn't find anything
specific -- Al, if you know where it is, go ahead and move me
over.

One of the things I do regularly is to flood the engine with WD40
as an after run.  Sometimes I run the WD40 out, but usually I
just pump it in, and put my finger over the carb and turn the
engine over a few times.  

I've done this pretty much every time I run the engine, and I'm
now wondering if the WD40 is gunking up my glowplug over a period
of several occasions.  I know that its commonly used, but maybe
for some reason others get away with it by say, not using as much
as I do, or not pumping it up into the upper cylinder.

I'm going to take a noon junket to Phylin' Phil and buy some of
that commercial after-run oil he has on the shelf, give that a
try and see if it'll change my luck (if you'll pardon the
expression).

Anyway, any thoughts on after-run procedures?  Lets take a poll
of what we do and how we do it, and of course, what we use.  I'll
tabulate the results if we get more than 10 responses.

I use WD40. I squirt it in the carb with throttle wide open,
flip it a couple times, and repeat that procedure 3-4 times. Then
I close the throttle completely. There is no apparent effect
on my glow plugs, and it burns out readily the next time I
start the engine, whether it's 1 day or weeks later.

I used to do the same thing with Marvel Mystery Oil, and that
fouled the glow plugs with black soot after a while. I never
had any problems with WD40. I do this on my OS25FSR and ST61ABC.

Dave

John,

I wouldn't think after-run procedure is you problem. At least not in the OS, and
probably not in the others. I say this for three reasons.

1. There's nothing in the OS to hurt, no bearings to rust. You've been running
    it regularly enough to insure that any castor in it hasn't gummed up so....

2. WD40 is good stuff and doesn't leave enough residue to hurt anything. I've
   used it sporadically with no ill effects.

3. After-run treatment isn't as important here as it is in Mass and elsewhere.
   My after-run consists solely of running the engine dry at the end of the
   day. Not a spot of rust on either of my bearing'd engines. With an average
   relative humidity of 30% and half the air they have at sea level there just
   aint enough moisture to rust anything! More important is to get as much
   castor out as possible so it doesn't get gummy.

Randy

    I have used WD-40, Marvel Air Tool Oil, and ATF for after-run.  The
    only problem with WD-40 is it evaporates so it's protection is
    temporary and is only good if you are flying regularly.  If the oil
    does not burn cleanly, it could foul the glowplug, I guess.  Motor oil
    would surely do this.  Oil for 2-stroke engines like outboard motors
    and chain saws is made to burn cleanly.  This should be good after run
    oil.  I noticed lots of kickback when starting after using Marvel oil.
    The thing detonates like crazy until all of the oil has gotten out of
    there.  This is painful if you hand start.
    	The YS engines use a silocone diaphram in the fuel regulator that
    will be damaged by petrolium based after run oil.  All of the above
    fall into that catagory.  Gasoline ruins silicone in a hurry as well. 
    For you with YS engines, an alternative oil is required.  Dan Snow got
    some from Dave Shadel (Performance Products) in Carlsbad California
    that is recommended for YS engines.  I plan to try this in my YS45.
    
    	By the way, glowplugs do wear out even if they still light.  There
    is a catylist in the wire that reacts with the methanol to help keep
    the plug going.  If it gets coated with carbon, it loses it's
    efficiency and the idle will suffer.  Afterrun oils probably reduce
    glowplug life, but they are easier to change than bearings.
    
    Charlie
    

    I use Marvel Mystery, but I also use alcohol before and after, so I
    don't try to burn it other than perhaps a trace.  The alcohol wash 
    before is to get out the castor oil and nitro; the wash after is to
    facilitate starting (it tends to spit props if I forget).  Otherwise, 
    my two OS40SF's both start perfectly; one is about 18 months old.

    On the downside, this is more bother than most people would go through.

    My usage pattern is probably not normal.  Like a lot of other people 
    I fly twelve months a year here in New England, but my engines spend a
    lot of time in a box waiting for the plane to be repaired again and
    again.  I don't treat the engines any differently before that storage.

    p.s.  The old keyword, "AFTER_RUN_OIL", points to note 64.  The next 
    time I update 11.*, I'll move this string and change the keyword to
    "ENGINE_AFTER_RUN_OIL" in keeping with the other engine-related keywords.  

    Al,
    	Alcohol is not a good thing to leave in the engine for any length
    of time.  I assume you are burning it off before adding oil and then
    flushing with it right before starting.  Guys that run race cars on
    alcohol purge the fuel system with gasoline before shutting down for
    the day to keep from ruining the fuel injection system.  Also, this is
    the main reason gasohol was a major flop.  Many cars warn you in the
    manual NOT to run gasohol in them.
    
    One important thing - everyone should always run their engine DRY and
    drain the fuel tank after every flying session.  It's also best to
    store your plane in a dry area if possible to prevent moisture from
    getting into the engine. (Northeasterners know what I mean)
    
    Charlie
    

AFTER-RUN PROCEDURES

As promised, here's a tablulation of after-run procedures from
the recent survey:

Who	    What	How
A. Berg-sonne  Kerosene	Put into carb (?) 
J. Chadd    Pacer	Remove plug, squirt in oil, replace plug,
			then crank engine w/starter.
D. Hartwell ATF		Burn fuel out, add 10-15 drops thru carb,
			crank engine w/starter.
D. Hughes   WD40	Squirt into carb, choke and turn engine
			over.
B. Lewis    Marvel	Burn fuel out then add Marvel.
R. Oswald   None.	Burn fuel out.
A. Ryder    Marvel	Alcohol flush, then Marvel, then another
			alcohol flush.
J. Tavares  Marvel	Into carb, choke engine and turn over.
C. Watt	    WD40	Burn fuel out, add WD40.  Uses Marvel for
			long term storage.
F. Zayas    Marvel	Pump into 4-stroke thru crancase vent.

    The UNIC crowd has been experiencing very short bearing life with
    YS45's.  The failures are definately due to corrosion of the rear
    bearing.  To compound the problem, the YS uses a slilcone diaphram in
    the regulator so you can not use any of the usual after run oils
    without damaging this diaphram.  My latest experiments have been with
    MOBIL-1 synthetic oil.  I tried soaking silicone fuel tubing in MOBIL-1
    with no signs of swelling or softening, so I started using it in my
    YS45.  So far, it seems to work great.  Starts after liberal
    application of the stuff seem to be easier than with Marvel which tends
    to cause detonation and backfiring.  Time will tell, but I think that
    this might be an excellent discovery.  By the way, I have to credit
    Harvey Thomasian, one of our local engine experts, for the idea to try
    this.  MOBIL-1 costs about $3 a quart, but a quart will last a long
    time!
    
    Charlie
    

    
    As the YS engines are actually "fuel injected" engine as apposed
    to carbarated I'd always wondered how one adds after run to the
    engine. I got a chance to watch a local FAI flyer lube his engine
    at the pattern meet this past weekend. 
    
    He runs the tank dry and then adds app. 1/4 oz of fuel then starts
    the ship and runs it at a high idle. He has a priming bottle with
    after run oil and as the engine sags running the tank dry he adds
    the oil at the carb. He continies to run the engine until smoke
    (LOTS) is coming out of the exhaust. he keeps his glow driver on
    all of this time. 
    
    
    Tom