Conference vmszoo::rc

         I'll start it off.  
    
         I've been flying on and off over the winter months and it is
    definetly an experience.  I even tried flying in a snow storm. 
    
                 DO                                  DON'T
    -------------------------------       --------------------------------
    
    wear warm clothes			  wear heavy gloves
    wear sun glasses                      fly in snow storms
    plow off a good size runway           fly into snow banks
    check batteries frequently            let batteries run down in flight
    have a chaser (little brother)        crash plane on ice near edge 
    
    -------------------------------       -------------------------------
                   
    The reason I list these things is because they all affected me!
    Especially the part about the batteries.  Mine died in flight and
    I ended up smacken my plane into the ice.
    
    But I enjoy flying over the snow.  Its neat!

In Sydney we rarely get what you guys would call winter, however I must confess 
I had to wash the frost of the car on two mornings last winter.

In the "Beat This" column try this for size.

My flying buddy is in the RAAF as flight crew on a C130. A few years back he 
went to Antarctica and took a .40 powered RCM Expert along for a flight
off the Ice. He noted several things during his flight in -20c temperatures.

	o The engine was difficult to start, more priming than usual was 
	  required.
	o The engine would not idle.
	o The dense air greatly effected the control surface response.
	o The nose wheel steering is useless off ice. (hmmm) The model
	  damaged the wing when it hit a snow drift on landing.
	o The experience of flying a model in the clear clean air of 
	  Antarctica he claims is unequaled in Australia. 

It is thought that this exploit was the first time a Radio Controlled model has 
been flown off the ice on Antarctica, also it is the furthest south any Radio 
Controlled model has been flown. You may have seen a full report of this flight 
in RCM along with several photos.

Where he flew from was actually the US Air Base, he got an array of 
disbelieving comments from the ATC operators when he asked for permission 
to fly. 

John.

    
    	By plowing a runway your missing half the fun and creating
    a potential problem for your ship.  A group of guys and I haven't
    missed a weekend (except for one when I was sick) since October.
    We fly off the snow rather than try and keep a runway clean. It's
    great fun. For the novice to snow flying I would say that floats
    work best. They are the simplest and slickest set up going. Once
    you have flown for a while off of snow they you can go the skiis.
    They tend to be a little more tricky. You really have to watch out
    for ruts with skiis as they ten not to ride over them as well as
    floats. We think this is primarily do to the fact that most floats
    are longer that skiis. The floats seem to have no problems with
    ruts. If you look back in this file you shall find a note of Fun
    FLY's. This was our funfly that was held in Jan. on the snow. It
    was great. Two observation I have made about flying in the winter
    months are that the planes float longer in the thick air and that
    after the snow has been down for a while the skiis/floats slide
    quite a long distance. If your going to use floats I recommend the
    GEE BEE plastic type. You bolt them on and that's it. With skiis
    remember to wax them.
    
    
    						Tom

Do you run a higher nitro fuel in the cold weather?  Would it help
start the engines better?  I imagine that the cold affects the
battery quite a bit, any comment?

    
      I've flown 2 times this winter off the snow using skies and floats
    and I think it's alot easier to land and take off.The only problem
    I had was a battery malfunction and crashed both times.I think it
    was because my batteries are 3 years old and the cold zapped them.
    Since then I've replace the batteriers in the trans.and the rec.
    I haven't tried flying since I've done this.
      So a good point to make is make sure your batteries are in
    excelent condition.
    
    
    
                                           KEEP'EM FLYING
                                             JERRY

		My ABC engine's been a real pain in the A in
	this cold weather..........ok once it's warmed up a bit.

    
    	Yes it is better to run a little higher Nitro in the winter
    months. However it isn't manditory.  For a starter fluid we use
    a combo of glow fuel with a little lighter fluid. Most times this
    isn't necessary but it's handy to have if you ever do need it.
    The weather doesn't seem to be a problem. I wasn't kidding when
    I said we had flown every sunday. That is the truth. Two sundays
    it was snowing but that didn't stop us. Flying sessions are shorter.
    We usually get there about noon and finish about 3:30. Batteries
    are a good point. I lost a scat cat in a bad crash(through trees)
    and when we checked the radio everything looked good. I'll have
    to charge that battery and then check it out.  The plane do glide
    a lot longer in the cold air. The engines seem to love it. When
    you go don't forget to wear warm boots. Even if the temp is supposed
    to be in the 30's or 40's. Also bring along a hat and gloves.
    When your standing around wear the hat at least. Most of your heat
    loss will be from the head so a hat really helps. Along with the
    clothing bring along an extra pair of sox. You never know. Bring
    something along to kneel on when your working on the plane.
    
    Don't plan on using that jem of an airplane that you have saved
    in the corner. Use the ratty one's from last summer. 
    
    
    					Good Luck, Keep us informed
    
    
    						Tom

    
    When you talk about floats, exactly what are you saying...?  Are
    they made of foam?  Are they very long?  Is there a certain length
    for different size planes?  I just saw some floats in the Tower
    Hobbies magazine and they recommend a 32" float for a .40 size plane.
    My largest plane has a .25 in it.  So what do I get?
    
    Also, I notice the picture that they had, it has two connecting
    brackets.  My plane only uses one, so how is it connected.  It seems
    pretty funny when I think about my plane having floats almost the
    same size!
    
    Ken

    
    	Kay, it was a good buy. As far as floats go, SURE!!!
    
    Floats or skiis go no everything.  If your going to set up the ship
    for snow move the floats forward until the step of the float is
    at the leading edge of the wing. In your case make sure that the step
    is at the the leading edge of the forward most wing. This set up
    will allow the tail to sag down when the plane is just sitting there.
    As you add power the tail will rise slightly and your off and running.
    This set up cannot be used in the water. In the snow as you ride
    over ruts etc. the plane will not rock back and forth. If you put
    the step at the CG as is correct for water the plane would rock
    back and forth as it went over ruts and the prop would at time skim
    the surface of the snow. Be inventive as to the attachment but KISS
    Keep It Simple Stupid.::!!)
    
    
    I've asked for systems help in another note. If I get it I try and
    write a note of a few attachment methods.
    
    
    						Tom
    	
    
    		

    the airplane was on floats.  Sometimes the crust was hard enough
    for wheels but in the afternoon it would get soft which makes for
    real QUICK stops with wheels.
    
    One of the hardest things about flying off hard snow, especially
    when it is a nice shiny ice crust, is taxiing.  The First Step is
    a tail dragger and I left the tail wheel on and touching the ground
    for more control.  When the plane is in a looooooooooong slide from
    landing and not slowing down quick enough to avoide the fence at
    the side of the field it takes real nerve to apply power to get
    rudder control!
    
    Another hint, WD-40 makes a great starter fluid when it gets down
    to the teens.  We spray it straight into the carb to get the two
    strokes running on the cold days.  Works down to about 15 degrees.
    
    Happy flying,
    
    Charlie

    Well, winter's upon us here in the north again. How about continuing
    this topic with more info on cold weather flying. I have floats
    from the summer; they worked good on the water. Do I mount them
    the same way for snow flying, or should they be more forward or
    backward from the c.g.? Any other comments/suggestions/hints?

    Hello, I had a sharp pain yesterday. I figured someone was using
    my name in vain.
    
    By up Dan and I mean "Forward". The float or ski should be mounted
    parallel to the wing and forward so that the tips are either at
    or in front of the prop arc. The plane will sit backwards on the
    tails of the skiis. Much like a taildragger. This way you can plow
    through snow taxiing yet with a little speed the tail comes up to
    give you good takeoffs. With the skiis/floats mounted parallel to
    the wing you will see a little added lift and when you flare to
    land the tips of the skiis/floats will be angled up to prevent the
    tips catching.
    
    One caution is if yoour flying out of a flied with corn stakes
    be careful. Then can be nasty of landing gear.
    
    again I'll mention that I have a article on ski design that I'll
    send anyone over the tube who requests it! Al, interested??
    
    
    
    						Tom

    Tom,
    
    Sure...if ya' can figger' a way for the skis to work on asphalt
    or dirt, send the article right along. ;-) Seriously, I've always
    kinda' wanted to try flying from snow and would've by now, but for
    one vital missing ingredient...3-guesses what that is. :-}
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    They don't make Skiis that work on retracts??
    
    						Tom

>    p.s. I guess we should all ignore Casey - he wouldn't know what
>    snow is, and probably doesn't have much in the way of water down
>    there in the sand pit so he wouldn't know much about floats either.
>    Careful about choking on all that dust, Al, and keep your canteen
>    filled. Don't forget to water the camels...

Au contraire, monsieur pusscat! The only time I ever remember being in a drought
was on a trip to Acton one year when the entire eastern seaboard was experien-
cing one. Thanks to a well planned, century-old reclamation system, we desert
rats enjoy an abundance of water in the form of many reservoirs, man-made lakes,
and the like. As I stated in an earlier note, Arizona, at one time if not still,
had/has the highest per-capita boat population in the U.S.

Water flying was/is one of my greater joys within modeling.  I still have my 
float setup and lack only the motivation to get another waterbird going to be 
back on good ol' H2O.  Nowadays, one of the most popular summer fun-flys is the
water bash held near Sedona every year.

I can't dispute yer' first statement about not knowing what snow is, however.  I
would wonder, though, pity me or pity y'all????????????? :-} :-}

Adios, amigo,	Al

P.S.  I don't think Tom intended for you to get the impression that you should 
raise the nose, relative to the floats.  As in water application, the floats' 
deck-line should be parallel to the model's thrust line...just move the step 
forward to the leading edge of the wing.

    I'm confused!  I just purchased a pair of floats and have not yet
    recieved them, but when I do they will be for water flying to start
    with, so where in relation to the CG do I locate them.
    
    
    Soon to be all wet....Ken
    
    PS.  Any precautions I should be aware of?

    Ken,
    
    The correct float setup for "water" is as follows:  The step on
    the floats must be directly beneath (or just slightly behind) the
    model's CG "with" floats installed.  The model's longitudinal center-
    line must be parallel (or just slightly nose down)  in relationship
    with the deck-line (or longitudinal center-line) of the floats.
    If this slight nose-down attitude sounds odd, think of the plane
    as a teeter-totter balanced on the floats' step, this being the pivot 
    point (or fulcrum);  if the nose is "up," relative to the floats'
    deck-line, application of power will tend to pull the nose (therefore 
    the float tips) down, a situation to be avoided at all costs.  Exactly 
    parallel or slightly nose down works best.                       
    
    I refer you to topic 328 for more discussion on water flying and,
    buried somewhere in the RAMBLINGS topic (239), is a yarn about flying
    from what we called "The Officers' Swimming Pool" several years
    back.
    
    Adios,	Al
    

Mornin' Guys,

Well another clear, cold, Arizona-winter(?) morning dawned with a temperature 
on the patio of 32-degrees.  Yup, the infamous freezing temp. visited mi casa
during the night but no hint of it could be observed outside.  No frost, ice,
etc. to be seen anywhere.  With a little difficulty, I "did" manage to find the
pair of gloves my daughter gave me for Christmas 5-years or so ago [which get
used at least 2-or-3 times yearly] and forged on in to the plant, certain to be
greeted by another barrage of snide remarks from the "Snow-man" and others.  I
have to admit to being almost disappointed at finding none.  Oh, well......I'll
just have to wait for another opportunity to use the super-fancy ice-scraper
Art Newbery gave me; hope I get a chance "sometime" this winter.  :-}

I happened to remember a little trick we've used for years for warming engines
enough to start easily in the cold [we used it last Sunday] and thought it might
be worth mentioning.  I can't guarantee it'll work in the temperatures many of
you might be flying in but it works like a charm for us and might be worth a try
back there.

All you need is yer' car/wagon/truck/micro-bus/or whatever you drive to the fly-
ing field and a length of old radiator hose cut such that it hangs vertical to 
the ground when slipped over the car's exhaust pipe, and at a distance from the 
ground roughly matching the height of the engine on yer' model sitting at rest.

By now, you've probably already figgered' out the procedure; just slip one end
of the length of radiator hose over the car's exhaust pipe and the other end 
over the cylinder head of the model's engine...start the car's engine and wait
a few minutes.  Then, simply remove the hose from the model engine, grab yer' 
electric starter and fire-up [it's assumed you've already fueled the plane and 
are ready to go].  The only minor precaution here is to keep an eye on closely
adjacent painted/mono-koted surfaces as the exhaust temperature might be warm
enough to loosen film/scorch paint though we've had no real problem in this 
area.  Try it and let me know how ya' like it....this method gets the cylinder
head nicely warmed to a temperature that even makes hand starting in the cold a
snap.  The radiator hose shape can be easily adapted to side-mounted and invert-
ed engines and it even works for cowled-in engines by directing the warm exhaust
into the engine compartment, as much directly toward the cylinder head as possi-
ble [though this takes a little longer to achieve the same warming effect.

I haven't seen one [except for the pix in the magazine ads] but a good solution
to the cold-hands/awkward gloves problem while flying in the cold would appear
to be the Transmitter-mitten [I'm not sure that's the actual trade-name] I've
seen advertised lately.  It's a large, fully lined bag, large enough to accept
the transmitter [antenna exits out a small hole in the top of the bag] and both
of the pilot's hands.  This would seem to solve the problem of maintaining the
finger sensitivity necessary to maintaining a "feel" of the aircraft.  The only
slight drawback I see is that the pilot "must" be intimately familiar with the
Tx as he isn't gonna' be able to "look" to find trim levers, etc.  Has anyone 
tried one of these or something similar??  I believe the ads for this item have 
been appearing in Model Aviation [the AMA magazine] of late.

Enough "RAMBLING" for now; adios amigos,	Al

        Re:< Note 239.370 by GHANI::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >

                You were  not  the  only  one  to  have  excellent flying
        weather.  Friday we got about 8 inches of snow, so I strapped the
        1/4 scale skis on  the  Robinhood  and  floats  on  the  PT20 and
        charged the radios.
        
                Saturday was almost windless and high sunshine with temps
        just under freezing.  Snow was  light  and fluffy.  The Robinhood
        had a little bit of trouble sinking  too  deep  in  the  snow  to
        styart with, so we fired up the PT20 and tried it.  Unfortunately
        the floats generated too much drag for the O.S.    FS  20 and the
        poor thing flopped back into the snow.  The floats pulled out the
        bottom, so that was it for the day (for the PT 20).
        
                The  Robinhood  had now cooled off so much that the skis,
        aluminum, would skid on the snow.  I took a load of  pictures  of
        it  sitting,  taking  off,  landing  and  dug in.  The skis are a
        breeze to  take off with.  Landings are even more fun - the thing
        goes on forever - and just beautiful.  I learned that you have to
        be careful turning too  quickly.    The skis dig in and the plane
        puts the nose into the snow if you do that.
        
                Sunday was almost as good.  Bill Clark was out first with
        his SE-5, but had a ton  of  trouble with his floats.  I flew the
        Robinhood again - had waxed the skis,  so it worked even better -
        and had a load of fun.
        
                We   had  just  finished  helping  another  friend,  Carl
        Crockford, build a PT 40, and he just had  to  fly  it.   Without
        floats,  so  we  hand  launched  it.  Carl is real  anxious,  and
        wouldn't  let  us  help  him, so he soloed on the second  flight.
        Beats my record - darn.  After about 4 flights - mostly coming in
        in on dead stick beacuse the new engine wouldn't keep running, he
        had put so much wear and tear on it (no more than an hour's work)
        because of his rough landings that we suspended for the day.
        
                Jack Buckley came half  way  through  the day and started
        snow blowing the runways, but  I  was  able  to  use  the area he
        hadn't touched.
        
                By the way, the Malloney clocked  6700  with  the 16 by 8
        prop. Maybe it will run 7000 when the weather is warmer.
        
                Sunday  evening  I   worked  on  my  new  60  size  Super
        Sportster.
        
        What a weekend.

    Well, I finally did it!  As mentioned earlier, the weather up here
    in NW Vermont was absolutely gorgeous.  Sooooo I got my Eaglet 50
    with my OS.25 and Gee-Bee floats and went down to the lake.  Just
    so happens my folks own some lake front property.  
    
    Well, she fired up nicely so I set her in the snow (about 2 inches),
    and commenced to throttle up.  To my surprise, it just sat there.
    The nose dipped alittle, but that was it!  Seemed like it was glued
    in place.  So I pushed it around a bit and again gave it some throttle.
    All of a sudden it goes.......in a complete 4' circle. 
    
    This time I'm ready.....   I throttle up and give it full right
    rudder.....it starts moving off to the left then starts to the right.
    As it straightens out I let up on the rudder just a tad and the
    darned thing is tearing up the snow! (All this time I'm holding
    full up elevator) I let up on the elvator and she continues screaming
    across the lake.  (Now picture this...I'm wearing a ski-jacket,
    a hat pulled down over my ears, sun glasses, and......bulky gloves!)
    So I figure its now or never..... I hit the elevator and up she
    goes.   Suddenly it starts dipping to the left....I counter (remember
    the gloves), it goes to much to the right, again I counter.  This
    went on for about ten seconds (seemed like hours) until I was able
    to gain enough altitude.  Then I quickly ripped one glove off with
    my mouth, (the right one of course) and got the bird under control.
    The other glove came off within seconds of the first!  
    
    I got it all trimmed out and what a blast I had!  It took a few
    minutes to get the  nerves calmed down, but after that, it was great.
    
    The landings were even better.  I was actually doing 360s and 180s
    in the snow.  I even did them as soon as the plane touched down.
    You can't tip the thing over....it just slides....totally awesome!
    And as for loops, rolls and inverted flights....no problem.  The
    floats seem to stabilize it better.  Well enough of my excitement
    from this past weekend.
    
    I'd like to thank all the noters for their input, because I applied
    all the suggestions, and it payed off.  So even if your just a beginner
    like me, and you might know something that you've expierenced, by
    all means, put in the the notes.
    

    Winter is almost over, and this file hasn't been touched since NOV 87!
    
    Actually, I've been doing alot of flying this winter using GEE BEE
    floats.  They're great!
    
    This past week I got two days of flying in down on Lake Champlain.
    It's still ice covered in the bay where I fly and only has a few
    patches of snow.  Last Wednesday I flew with floats, Saturday I
    took the floats of and went with wheels.  However on Saturday, a
    strange thing happened....there was a gap of water 5' wide running
    across my runway, so I couldn't get out in the middle of the bay.
    I got brave and decided to use my shortened runway anticipating
    no problems..... that is if I didn't land on the other side of the
    gap!
    
    It really wasn't that bad, I'd come in real low, just above the
    gap and touch down on the ice.  The plane would continue onward
    until it hit the snow on the beach about 40 feet away and stop as
    if it landed on a carrier....real neat.
    
    Of course this couldn't continue forever....I had two landings which
    I mis-judged and ended up touching down on the other side of the
    gap!  The first one got caught up on a little chunk of ice and just
    teetered with one wheel in the water.  [ NO BATH ]  The second one
    wasn't so fortunate.  A beautiful landing on the wrong side and a
    perfect stop.....smack dab in the water...the plane slowly settled
    down to the wings and sat there.  Both time I used a boat (the water
    flowed by the end of a dock left in the water all year) launched
    from the dock to retrieve my boat....Plane!  I drained the water
    out, got the engine started, but the controls went funky on me.
    The throttle was very sluggish and the rudder would hardly move.
    So I called it quits and commenced to remove the wing.  To my suprise,
    the receiver was moist (apparently not wrapped up enough in the
    plastic) and my foam was extremely soaked.  Anyways, it's all back
    together and ready to go again.
    
    I tell you, there is nothing like flying on ice and snow, especially
    when you have an obstacle like ducks and open water on the flight
    line.
    
    Ken (ready for a low-winger now)
    

                I feel  sorry for ALL of you.  Bill Clark and I are up on
        our farm in  Maine  and  we have about 5 inches of crusty snow on
        the ground, so we  hooked  up  the skis and stepped out the front
        door.    The  temperature was  only  15  degrees,  so  the  Super
        Sportster had trouble running on the  four stroke fuel, but I did
        manage to get one flight in.   Bill also had a flight on his flat
        PT-40 and ended up messing up one of  his  skis  coming  in.  The
        bracket has been replaced by a piece of wood that broke.
        
                Tonight we will get some 15% fuel and have  a dawn patrol
        session in the morning.
        
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/
Eat your hearts out!

    As an update to Anker's note yesterday:
    I got my ski's re-installed last night, we got to bed early, and
    were ready to go at 7:45 this morning. There is no wind, the sun
    is out, about 5" of snow on the ground and a balmy 0 degrees out.
    We assembled the planes in the kitchen, started my PT40/Gypsy Moth
    in the garage, and walked out the back door for one of the best
    flights of my life! Everything was perfect, wqith crisp, clean,
    still air, bright sun, blue sky and white snow! What a rush! Anker
    and I each flew the Moth for a bit then brought it in to give his
    Super-sportster a try. He got up ok but the engine quit right away,
    so he's in the diningroom adjusting his valves right now. I got
    another good flight on the Moth, then we broke for hot chocolate,
    apple pie and pumpkin bread. 
    
    It's warmed up to about 15 now, still no wind. Guess I'll go out
    for another flight. It doesn't get better than this!
    
    Bill, we're about 25 miles east of Sunday River. We got about 5"
    on Wednesday with a little rain on top. Since then its been cold.
    Skiing should be perfect!
    
    Bill

        Re:< Note 811.16 by EDUHCI::CLARK >

                I kept  struggling with the SS60 engine all morning.  The
        symptoms are really  wierd:   The problem exists at full throttle
        and the problem us  that  the  engine is excessively sensitive to
        needle valve position and nose  up/down.    I am stumped and will
        pack up for the day.  I have tried to guess what the problem is -
        dirt in the carb, a pinched fuel  line  was  ruled out by blowing
        through the vent.  I HATE CRANKY ENGINES!   And this one has been
        such a beauty. PLEASE HELP ME!
              
                Why did I have to get caught with this  problem 200 miles
        away from my three other planes?
        
                As  Bill  wrote, the weather is picture perfect, there is
        still no breath of air and the sun is beating down on us.
        
        BUMMER
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

>                            -< The D^%$^%$ engine >-
...
>                I kept  struggling with the SS60 engine all morning.  The

As Al has often said and I agree with.
The fiddle to fun ratio on the 4 strokes is not worth it.
I have to consider Anker an expert on 4 strokes and if he is having
headaches with his this should be a warning to the rest of us - especially
beginners - AVOID complexity.  2 strokes are simpler than 4 strokes and they
will still give you fits at times.

Flying off snow can be great fun - but there is nothing fun about
fiddling with an engine out in the cold.

Aside from the engine problem - I'm envious.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    It is fall in New England now, and before you know it, Winter will be
    here. I know that some die-hards here have been rc flying through the
    winter months, and would like to hear tips from them on do's and
    don'ts, any special gear they used, and tricks to combat the cold. Then
    there is skiis...
    
    I have bicycled through the winter, but feel my experience in dealing
    with the cold/wind invalid since I generate a lot of heat biking,
    compared to rc flying where you just standing most of the time.
    
    Soooo, experts, tell your tales.
    
    ajai
    
    PS. Yeah, I want to give winter flying a shot. After all, isn't it
    similar in the tropics? :-)
    
    

    
    For starters, get an old pair of gloves and cut the fingertips out of
    the fingers you use on the sticks.  I haven't done it because the
    only winter flying I have done was last January when it was in the
    50's and there was no snow on the ground.  But if I do it I will
    definitely make a pair of RC gloves!
    
    Bill  
    

    The keyword, SKI, points to 71 with its 6 replies and 811 with 26
    replies.  Floats seem to be used more often than skis.
    
    I have mixed feelings about my DACA skis, but I think I would
    recommend them.  Flying off the ice with metal skis (that have
    no edge biting into the ice) is very, very different.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    Batteries have less capability in the cold.  Use an ESV.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    Bring a small rug to kneel upon.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    Use wooden props, not plastic.  (They can get brittle.)
    Use a wooden chicken stick, not plastic.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    Winter flying is less crowded.  And fewer mosquitoes.
    
    
    Alton, who grew up in the Northeast Kingdom and flew with Jeff 
    every month last winter.

    p.s., Ajai.  Your planes will be easier to find.

    Starting your engine gets a little more difficult in the cold weather.
    I seldom use a starter but I find it necessary if the temp is below 45
    degrees or so.  Also, you need to prime the heck out of your engine.
    Methanol does not vaporize very well when it's cold so you need to
    generate some heat in your engine before it will run properly.  Once
    running, you will have no problems - and the engine actually makes more
    power due to the denser air.  I flew all winter with a nylon (graupner)
    prop with no problems, but the advice to use wood sounds reasonable to
    me.  Be prepared to replace it if you dork your landing though.  Frozen
    ground is like concrete.  I noticed this doing touch and go's.
    	I tried gloves with the thumbs cut out, but my thumbs really got
    cold on windy cold days.  I think I'll try making a transmitter cover
    that protects my hands while flying.  I'm familiar enough with where
    the switches and trims are to be able to fly without seeing them.
    an old jacket should provide the necessary materials to make this.
    I haven't tried this yet, so I'm just speculating.
    	We did some really enjoyable flying last winter, but I never got to
    try my skiis.  I flew the first day of February in 60 degree weather
    which was really unusual.  This year I plan to fly the Panic all winter
    long.  If I have trouble with too much snow, I'll just throw it
    straight up with the trusty OS91 Surpass firewalled.
    
    Charlie
    

    Last winter [and maybe other recent winters] was also unusual in the
    lack of snow cover.  The norm in my region, not too far north of the
    sunny south region known as Maynard/Marlboro, is for a foot or more to
    have accumulated on the ground by mid January.  You don't want to hear
    what it's like in the Northeast Kingdom where Ken Soutiere flies.
    
    Plan on skis, not wheels, as the norm.
    
    Heed Eric's warning about eye protection [from the snow glare also].
     
    Think twice about a white plane.
    --------------------------------------------------
    
    I use denatured/solvent alcohol for cleaning --- bought by the gallon
    in the hardware stores and transferred to a spray bottle.  I started
    using this last winter and still do so.  [I also use it as a rinse for
    the engine before adding the Marvel Mystery Oil and for carb cleaning
    after a one-point landing.]
    --------------------------------------------------
    
    A warm hat will help preserve body heat.   

        Re:                        <<< Note 48.32 by THOTH::SNOW >>>

                All  the    previous  replies  exagerate  the  amount  of
        preparation needed to go winter flying.
        
                I flew all through the last three winters.  As far as the
        plane goes I did  nothing special other than put skis on a couple
        of  them.  No extra  priming,  not  attention  given  to  shorter
        battery life even though I put  a  lot  more flights on the plane
        (very few others there), but I always  use  an  electric starter.
        The coldest weather I have flown in is about 10 degree farenheit.
        
                The major problem is keeping yourself warm.   I have used
        full  finger  cloth  gloves  with  a  lot of success.    I  don't
        subscribe to cutting the tips off.  Its amazing how  quickly they
        become  numb  if  you do.  When its really cold (20  degrees  and
        below) I wear a  bankrobber  hood  - or whatever they are called.
        Longjohns are also great.
        
                For cleaning,  don't  use  simple green.  It turns into a
        stiff guey mass even above freezing.
        
                I always use  plastic  props  -  Master  Airscrew  -  and
        haven't noticed any tendence to shatter.
        
                My advise - dress yourself warm and go for it!

                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

One thing from my old C/L combat days was to boil props to ease the internal
stresses in the nylon. I mentioned this to a friend after he ruined 3 Master
Airscrews on our gravel runway and the following weekend we had significantly
better luck. No more shattered blade tips. I would think the cold weather would 
simply make this worse.

Maybe this should be moved to the "tips" note?

>    p.s., Ajai.  Your planes will be easier to find.

AJ - just so your scouts don't get complacent - think about
using White MonoKote - just to keep them on their toes!

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Again, I have a note on the construction of skiis. If anyone wants
    a copy let me know via vaxmail.
    
    
    Tom

    re. Note 48.31  ABACUS::RYDER "perpetually the bewildered beginner"  
                -< grass?  what grass?   ahh, under the snow. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [You don't want to hear what it's like in the Northeast Kingdom] 
    [where Ken Soutiere flies.]


	Well, I don't actually fly in the Northeast Kingdom, but we
    do get our share of the snow and COLD here in Burlington.  If you
    were to look on a map of VT. you would look just north of Burlington
    and see an inlet off Lake Champlain called Mallets Bay.  Thats where
    I do my Winter flying.

	I use Gee Bee floats because many people ice fish and they leave
    alot of ruts in the snow.  Skiis would have the tendancy to flip over
    if they hit at a slight angle.  Plus you can do 360's on FIRM SNOW
    with the floats.

	Anyways, I've been using DRIVING GLOVES of the woolen/knitted
    kind when I fly, reverting back to my GORTEX SKI MITTENS when not
    flying.  You must have insulated boots because you are just going
    to be standing there (unless you are going to look for Ajai's plane)
    and you will get cold.  A hat that covers your ears is a must as
    well as SUN GLASSES!  The snow gets mighty bright when the sun is
    shining.  They also help the watering problem due the breeze hitting
    your constantly open eyes.

	As far as shelters to keep warm while you fly, this year I am
    going to attempt to build a chest-high 4mil plastic "flying shanty".
    Nothing elaborate, just a 3x3x4 enclosure with one side hinged so
    I can just walk into and stay out of the wind.  The sun will warm
    the insides through the plastic.  The antennae will be extended
    through a slit in the plastic so there won't be a large hole in my
    little shelter.  I'm not sure what I want to do about a roof.  I
    was also thinking of making the custom fit shelter neck high with
    a hole in the plastic roof large enough for my head to fit through.
    Heck, I could even make it low enough to use sitting on a folding
    campers seat.

	Sounds strange, but it gets real cold, real quick out there and 
    that puts a major bummer on the flying.

	I also use a plastic sled to carry my gear out to my sight on the 
    lake.  My flight box has a cradle for the plane so I just put the box
    in the sled and the plane on the box and voila!  If I have two planes,
    I tie the second plane to the flight box and tow it out behind the 
    sled (its got floats).

    See you on the ice packs!
    Ken (Nanook of the North)
    
         

    We construct a similar shelter of clear plastic. The way our impound
    is made it lends itself to tacking up plastic on three sides with
    the impound being the fourth side. We have a fire barrel we use
    in the middle. It gets quite warm. We haven't melted the plastic,YET.
    
    I like skiis, but floats work as well or better in some installations.
    
    If your flying a trike geared ship that has a flat section on the
    fuse in front of the wing a simple set up is to remove the tank,
    Cut and glue a 1/4"plywood block in place on the balsa bottom,
    reenforce the side joint with 1/2"tri stock. From the outside cut
    a pad of rubber or dense foam the same size at an aluminum gear.
    Install this between the gear and the finished fuse. This will 
    protect the fuse. On the new gear you can install the floats of
    skiis and then remove the trike wire gear.
    
    
    
    Tom

Wouldn't a plastic garbage bag with head and arm holes work
instead of a shelter?  

    There seems to be a little confusion about the shelter.  The shelter
    will only be used when I am flying!  When fueling up or making adjust-
    ments, I will do that out in the open.  I just want something to
    keep the wind/cold off me when I am standing there boring holes
    in the sky.

    After flying an old but new-to-me plane without incident two of the
    last three weekends, today I ran out of luck.  I have flown with skis
    many times, but this was to be my first time on floats, and I crashed
    during my first landing approach.  The plane was destroyed, utterly
    destroyed.  Except for the wing, undamaged until I stripped the
    covering to dry the innards, the plane went into the trash tonight. 
    
    The floats were set up on two sheet aluminum gear struts; the rear
    strut was mounted and dismounted along with the floats.  The floats
    attached to the four axles and were locked on by wheel collars.  This
    set-up facilitated moving between wheels, skis, and the floats without
    affecting the CG.  The floats stuck out well beyond the prop arc.

    The left rear float attachment came off during a final approach turn.
    The tip went up into the prop arc, stopping the engine and kicking the
    float tip even higher; that would have pushed the CG forward and
    increased the drag --- the plane went into a vertical dive and did not
    respond to up-elevator.  The plane was over the power company's cooling
    water lagoon, a pond covered with large, round rafts bearing spray gear
    for cooling the pond water in the summer. The plane went straight down
    into the center of the lagoon, spearing one of those giant rafts.  The
    prop hub stuck into the half inch thick fiberglass deck of the raft;
    the rest of the plane tried to continue, leaving only the engine mounts
    attached to the engine.  The floats, joined together by the front
    struts now separated from the fuselage, came to rest on the deck. The
    fuselage with the wing still perfectly attached and aligned, floated
    inverted over to another raft. 

    I lost only an old battery pack, the rear strut, the fuselage, and
    the ability to fly tomorrow.  And another sliver of ego.

    The radio still worked at home; the engine feels good. 

    Alton, who happened to have done a range check before flying.  The
    diagnosis above was the result of a careful autopsy and two witnesses
    who saw the float go awry.

    I too had a tough weekend.
    
    Saturday I managed to take my brothers Eagle 2 and fly it into a
    dock.  Came apart at the seams, but no major damage.   About 2-3
    hours of repair and it'll be as good as new.
    
    What happened was I dead sticking it into the wind which was at
    my back (coming from the shore).  The wind was blowing pretty good
    so I figured I could float her down.  The wind however, would keep
    popping it up so it took longer than I expected to get it down.
    By the time it touched the ice, it was headed for the dock and 
    there was nothing I could do to avoid it.  Kinda makes you feel
    like #&@^.
    
    Ken

    Well, this weekend wasn't too bad for me. I got out yesterday and
    flew my Cobra for the first time since August. One flight in 45
    degree weather was about it for me.  The Cobra sure responds
    differently than my Concept. Sort of like going from a big ol Caddy
    to a Ferrari.
    
    Why am I flying the Cobra you ask. Simple. Last weekend was my turn
    for bad luck. I lost it from about 50 feet up and that combined
    with cold plastic means I need about $60 worth of parts for the
    Concept now. Last summer the Concept would hav hit the ground and
    then bounced ten feet in the air. Last week it hit and the skids
    broke, the mainframe broke, and the blade realigned there aerodynamic
    profile by a considerable amount. Heck even the fan shroud broke.
    8^( 

I did some "winter" flying 2 Sundays back. 

It was  around  44 F, and there were a few flyers at the field. I decided to
use  some  of  my  winter  bicycling  experience,  though it is not directly
relevant because rc flying does not involve strenuous physical activity, and
also  because  you  need  to  retain  dexterity  in  your  fingers, which is
non-critical to bicycling.

I wore  thermax  long  johns, jeans, a small down jacket (sleeveless), and a
medium  down  jacket (sleeveless) over that, expedition weight polypropylene
full  face mask, and lightweight thermax gloves while flying. Heavy gore-tex
gloves  for  between  flights.  I also carried re-usable hand warmers in the
jacket  pockets,  that  did  not  stay  warm  as long as the pockets weren't
insulated.  I also activated a warmer within my jacket(s) to make up for the
lack  of  physical activity to generate heat. Hey! Ah'm a twopical boid, fer
chrissake!

In the  past, I have attended lectures by a fellow called Murray Hamlet, who
is  one  of 8 experts in the world on cold weather related medical problems.
He  is  the  big  boss  of  the  U.S.  Army  Natick  research  labs,  and an
entertaining speaker, besides being verry knowledgeable in the subject.

From his talks, and from my own experience, I know that it is much harder to
dress  for  X  deg F due to windchill, rather than X deg F ambient. You lose
over  50%  of body heat from your head, and your finger and toe tips are the
first to get cold.

I knew  I  needed  the  radio  glove that I had ordered, but is yet to come.
Nonetheless,  I  decided to see what it felt like to battle with the RC Gods
in  winter.  Also,  I  had  the advantage of the absence of snow, so I could
concentrate on dealing with the cold.

I had  to innaugurate my brand new starter, that has been sitting in the box
for 2 years. I haven't yet got the hang of getting the starter co-axial with
the  prop  shaft,  so  I  couldn't crank for long, as the starter cone would
wobble and slip off.

Swathed in  clothing,  and  given  the  lack  of  foliage  to  cue you in, I
completely  underestimated  the  ferocious  cross-wind that prevailed. While
taxiing  around,  my  plane lifted off!! I didn't open throttle as the plane
was pointed towards the pits. It bounced and the engine quit.

Second attempt  at take-off was fruitfull, but the model was being buffetted
about  by  the wind like a leaf fluttering down. No time for a balky engine!
The  winds were shifting about all the time. I had to make numerous attempts
(6?)  before  I  fought  the  plane  down.  Turned  out  that  I was landing
down-wind! 

My fingers  grew  cold  soon enough, further reinforcing the notion that you
need  to  have your hands and the tx enclosed in a "glove", and in which you
have  a  heat  pack  that is actively keeping out the cold, and keeping your
fingers limber. When I bicycle to work, I am actually sweating by the time I
reach,  even  in the dead of winter. I need to engineer a similar enviroment
if winter flying is going to be fun.

I had  3  flights  and  about  40 minutes of flying in all before calling it
quits,  officially  crossing  the  70  hour  threshold  -  I was short by 13
minutes.  On  numerous occassions, the wings became vertical during take-off
and during landing - always 4 feet off the deck!

I thought  I had forgotten my flying skills, since keeping the a/c up in the
air  was  all  I  did.  No  aerobatics. Just a couple of rolls. No sustained
inverted  flight! Ever since I learnt to fly inverted, I have _always_ flown
inverted at least _once_ anytime I go flying!

Just when  I  was  getting  depressed  at my "lost" flying skills, guru Bill
Lewis  showed up! While he hasn't flown much this year, he picks up where he
left off  the  last  time  rather  quickly.  He  was "cheating" - making his
landings direct into the cross-wind - i.e. across the field - touching down,
and turning so he didn't go towards the pits, as he didn't feel confident.

Heck! If  even  the  Gurus  were  feeling  queasy, I had nothing to complain
about!  I  might go flying tomorrow, if we can pull off a Global Warming Fun
Fly  in  the  70  degree  weather that is predicted for tomorrow, subject to
docile winds.

ajai

    I've been flying every weekend at our club's new field in New Boston
    (NH); it's almost as good as flying off pond ice.  You can land and
    take off anywhere, but if you dork it away from the runway or pits,
    snow shoes are appropriate.

    A club member is flying an ACE High MKII, launching by hand and then
    landing it like a flying boat on its hull.  I'm flying an 0.09 powered
    Gentle Lady with skis of my own design.  Both planes do better on snow
    than on grass.  Another club member was flying a pattern-type ship with
    skis that he manufactures and sells; he was doing land-an-leave's, a
    form of touch-an-go that can be done when the entire field is a runway.

    I accidentally found either ridge lift or a thermal over some down wind
    pines.  With the throttle at idle I got up to 400 or 500 feet before I
    realized that I was dead stick.  The wind had picked up, and I was 
    sufficiently down wind that it was prudent to bring it in.  Now I wish
    I had had the courage to find out what was providing the lift.  The
    skis don't seem to interfere much with the glider guiding.