| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 386.2 | Report on demo of F3E and solar powered planes | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Mon Jan 08 1990 15:56 | 86 |
| Here finally comes a report of the electric models Franz Weissgerber
brought with him to the demo of GRAUPNER/JR in Kempten (for RC report,
look at #737).
I really don't know where to start. Don't hesitate to ask further
questions if you're interested.
1.) The first model displayed was the ARIANE 5. Ariane is the name
of the line of Franz Weissgerbers F3E models, it's the 5th iteration.
It's controlled with aileron, flaps, elevator and motor controller,
all of which are mixed by the TX's software. Flaps and motor controller
are controlled by three-point switches with positions for distance,
speed and landing (flaps) and motor off/half speed/full speed (this
one only to save the motor and the folding prop.
Motor is a Plettenberg cobalt or GRAUPNER ULTRA 2000 (about DM 500,-
$ 280.- in Germany), driven by 27 SANYO 900 SCR cells. Notice that
they push the voltage up to keep the current limited.
The plane is built from glass and carbon reinforced epoxy, and I
did not see any foam! The wing (2 m span) has a bar made of glass
and carbon, no foam. It is incredibly light and strong. The control
surfaces don't have conventional hinges, but their upper surface is
laminated into the wing! No gap, no step. On the bottom, you see that
the leading edge of the control surfaces has a radius to keep the gap
between rudder and wing as small as possible.
Building technique is similar to that of full size airplanes in
negative molds, and I assume the finish is put into the mold first
(2 K epoxy color, decals), then the glass and the epoxy. The surface
is incredibly smooth. I try to imagine the hours of polishing...
The speed records he set with the ARIANE 5 are ~255 km/h for 200 m
and ~244 km/h for a square pattern. That's about 156 mph!
These planes are not built "crash proof". The wing is attached with
two steel bolts!
He had with him an elevator of an ARIANE recently crashed (experts
still have to fight bad RX batteries!). This showed the excellent
building technique and strength. It was equipped with some solar cells
to help the receiver battery (no BEC in this range of power!). They
were pressed into the mold during construction. This way they bend a
bit, but they have exactly the required profile and no additional
cover that might lower their output.
How did the crash occur? Well, we were told to be careful with high
speed ships and the required high preformance servos. After a success-
full flight, the pilot deflected the flaps and ailerons during the
landing approach (crow landing). This means that 4 servos pulled
against the hinge (glass surface) and the airflow. With the bad
battery, the voltage dropped below 3 V, and that's too low. GRAUPNER/JR
systems should work down to 3 V (failure of one cell is not fatal),
but in this cae, the load was too high. If the solar cells had anything
to do with this, I'm not sure.
2.) The second plane he broght along was the SOLARIANE. As far as I
know, it's the best pure solar plane today. He flew several records
with this one, too. It is powered only by the solar cells in the wing,
for the receiver there are cells in the elevator. There is no buffer
battery for the motor, but I think a small one for the flight pack.
The plane is controlled with rudder, elevator, motor controller and
an (I think automatically) adjustable propeller. This automatic control
assures the best efficiency of the solar generator/motor/prop system
under all conditions.
The wing is plyhedral and comes in three parts with solar cells only
in the straight part. The cells make the upper surface of the special
profile (upper side as straight as possible) as described on the
elevator above. It's again incredibly light, even with all the cells.
The fuse is simply (?) a stick wound of carbon fibres. It has the
diameter of the biggest component it has to host, the electric motor.
Electronics seem to be custom made or at least modified to fit. Note
that the antenna was hanging out of the fuse because a carbon fiber
fuse acts as a good HF shield.
This is what came to mind a couple of weeks after the event. If you're
interested, feel free to ask further questions. Right now, I'm sorry
for not being able to include exact technical data for the SOLARIANE.
Maybe I can dig something up if you're interested.
Regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.3 | German F3E report interesting | ELMAGO::TTOMBAUGH | High Plains Drifter | Mon Jan 08 1990 16:54 | 38 |
| re: .305
Hartmut,
Thanks very much for the F3E info. At least a few of us are interested
in hearing of the latest developements.
I have a few questions:
1. What sort of material and finishing methods allows the upper
surface of the wing to remain flexible enough to be used as a hinge
while still retaining (I assume) a smooth, low drag surface?
2. The 3 position motor control is the only speed control available?
No continuously variable current control?
3. I assume the variable pitch prop is Dr. Weissgerbers' custom
design and not a commercially available unit. Correct?
4. What is the flying weight (without motor batteries) and the
approximate wing loading. Metric units ok.
Some observations:
The Graupner motor is only $10 cheaper than here in the States.
Interesting. The Plettenberg unit is unknown here.
Solariane appeared in a recent American model publication. You confirm
my suspiscions of the carbon fuselage.
My attempt at a solar powered sailplane with battery backup is still
under consideration. 28 cells, 2A, .5v, would cost $175 here. About
the same as a medium size 4-stroke engine.
Keep the reports coming.
Terry
|
| 386.4 | Tell us more!! | ROCK::MINER | Electric = No more glow-glop | Mon Jan 08 1990 20:13 | 42 |
| RE: Note 387.305 by KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG
Harmut,
Thank you very much for the reports. They are very informative. In
the world of electric flight, I now understand that the best in
Germany is far ahead of what's available here in the U.S.!!
I am very interested on reading more about the methods that were
used to build the glass and carbon fiber wing. I'm also interested
to read more about the type of solar cells used and how much they
cost.
Are the planes mentioned available in kit form? If they are not
available as a kit, do you have any guesses as to how much they
would cost if there was a kit?
I noticed that the ARIANE 5 does not have a rudder. Is this correct?
I am also interested in more detail about the ailerons and how they
are attached to the wing. You said: "The control surfaces don't
have conventional hinges, but their upper surface is laminated into
the wing! No gap, no step. " Please explain further!!!
It would also be interesting if you can supply details of the planes
such as wing area, weight, typical current for the motor, airfoil
used, and any other similar data. I assume both planes have a 2m
wingspan. Metric units are OK.
It's great to hear about this leading edge technology. Keep up the
good work!!
_____
| \
| \ Silent POWER!
_ ___________ _________ | Happy Landings!
| \ | | | | |
|--------|- SANYO + ]-| ASTRO |--| - Dan Miner
|_/ |___________| |_________| |
| / | " The Earth needs more OZONE,
| / not Caster Oil!! "
|_____/
|
| 386.5 | Its a slick idea... | CSC32::M_ANTRY | | Tue Jan 09 1990 16:12 | 19 |
| regarding the hingless wing, This is what Rich Spicer and crew used on
their SYNERGY III that they took to the F3b Champs in France. A fellow
flyer has one of the planes.
The wing is laid up in two female molds and when that is cured the top
and bottom wing panels are joined together, hence you have a hollow
wing. They also on the bottom of the wing panel mold in a 1/4 inch
recess where the joint would go.
____
_________| |_________________ (exagerated of course)
Then they take the wing and at the front of this recess they cut it.
then in the recess they take a piece of mylar and attached it in the
recess. this mylar piece then extends into the hollow wing portion.
So the only thing you have is where the wing was cut and the mylar goes
into the wing. The upper surface of the wing will bend (its only thin
epoxy and glass).
|
| 386.6 | Please try again | ROCK::MINER | Electric = No more glow-glop | Tue Jan 09 1990 16:46 | 41 |
| Thank you for the explaination, but I'm afraid it's not a good
enough explaination (at least for me). Please attempt to draw the
entire cross section of the wing and try the explaination again.
Here's what I *think* you said, but I am not sure:
/----Top surface bends here
__------------________ /
- --------__________
/ ------_____
| (main wing) _____ (flap) ----______
\_____________________________________| |____________________=-
Assuming this ugly airfoil would fly, you mold the top and bottom
halves separately and then join them after they've cured. A blown
up detail of the notch in the bottom looks like this:
__________
(mylar) ----> ================|
| |
(main wing) | | (flap)
_________________________| |_______________
For a typical chord of (let's say) 10 inches, how tall and wide is
this gap?
It's too bad we can't draw better pictures then these darned
character terminals allow...
_____
| \
| \ Silent POWER!
_ ___________ _________ | Happy Landings!
| \ | | | | |
|--------|- SANYO + ]-| ASTRO |--| - Dan Miner
|_/ |___________| |_________| |
| / | " The Earth needs more OZONE,
| / not Caster Oil!! "
|_____/
|
| 386.7 | Some more data... | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Wed Jan 10 1990 06:35 | 25 |
| Re. 378.308:
This explanation is very good! I'm not really sure how it is done, I
only know what it looks like when it is done. If you have experience
with iron-on films, you probably tried to iron on the aileron with the
film on the top of the profile. Now imagine your cover is thin glass,
and you have it. Yes, it can make a cracking noise when you deflect it.
Yes, you need pretty strong servos. Yes, don't forget to make sure
you're battery can deliver and your receiver and cables can handle the
required current. But I assume with this kind of ship, the aerodynamic
load on the servos is A LOT bigger than the spring force of the
aileron.
Sorry, I don't have time to enter more today. And I'll be off from this
afternoon until probably Friday (business trip). I will get back with
technical data of the SOLARIANE. Al Ryder, can you jump in before me?
Not sure yet if I will find anything about ARIANEs. What I can
remember:
Profile: Giersberger don't know which (RG?)
Accu: 27 cells 900 SCR (weighs ~1.1 kg)
Span: ~2 m
Total weight: estimated 2.5 kg
Regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.8 | The recess is not that thick | CSC32::M_ANTRY | | Wed Jan 10 1990 13:59 | 6 |
| re: the picture. Everything is correct but, The recess where the
mylar goes is only as thick as the mylar, so when you put the mylar in
the recess it brings the surface back up to flush.
Does that clear everthing up?
|
| 386.9 | On SOLARIANE and ARIANE 5 (F3E) | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Mon Jan 15 1990 11:12 | 119 |
|
Sorry, guys, didn't find the time for a reply until now. And the technical
data are still missing. I don't have them myself, and a friend who brought
them along today forgot to give them to me and is now off for a business
trip. Anyway, I will try to answer at least some more of your questions:
Terry:
> 2. The 3 position motor control is the only speed control available?
> No continuously variable current control?
Correct. He indeed uses the most famous and expensive (proportional)
controller available in Europe and probably in the world. A swiss
made controller from Sommerauer. But he only uses it to "soft switch"
his high power motor. He says that during a contest (that's what the
planes are made for), he needs both hands on the sticks. And the back/
forth stick channels are used for elevator and (crow) brake. It is
easy to switch with a finger, but too complicated (for contest
situations, again) to use another prop channel. He only needs full
power anyway (speed and climb), the half-power position is only
to take care of motor and prop. ARIANE ONLY!!!
> 3. I assume the variable pitch prop is Dr. Weissgerbers' custom
> design and not a commercially available unit. Correct?
Variable pitch prop is SOLARIANE ONLY!!!
The prop is designed by Mr Schoeberl, a friend of Weissgerber. It
is not commercially available, but a very important component for
the success of SOLARIANE. I'm not really sure, but I seem to remember
that I read an article about automatic control for SOLARIANEs motor
and propeller to fly with optimum efficiency under all conditions.
If the information I hope to get on Wednesday says anything about this
issue, I'll let you know.
> 4. What is the flying weight (without motor batteries) and the
> approximate wing loading. Metric units ok.
Not sure if I can find more details on this one.
> The Graupner motor is only $10 cheaper than here in the States.
> Interesting. The Plettenberg unit is unknown here.
The January issue of MODELL says that Weissgerber set speed records
even with the ULTRA 2000. But he outperformed them some weeks later
with the PLETTENBERG. There are several brands of high quality motors
available in Germany: Plettenberg (brand name of motors is
Hektoplett), Geist, Keller (now carried by Robbe, probably as
unavailable in the US as they are here) and Graupners Ultra series.
Plettenberg, Geist and formerly Keller are small companies that mostly
sell their products directly to their customers. They don't do much
advertising, produce in small volume and are very flexible to meet
the personal needs of competition participants.
> I am very interested on reading more about the methods that were
> used to build the glass and carbon fiber wing.
Dan, I fear I must disappoint you as I can't explain the method to
build wings like the ones I saw there. I don't have the equipment
and am not very experienced with glass myself. I just tried to
describe the finished planes I saw and remembered what I learned
11 years ago when I was at Akaflieg Braunschweig working on full
scale gliders (only for a few months). Not enough for projects like
these. If you have access to someone who is capable of German, I
might try to dig up a book for you. Let me know.
> I'm also interested to read more about the type of solar cells used and
> how much they cost.
Sorry, the only thing I know is that they are from TELEFUNKEN
(subsidiary of german AEG). I'm not sure if the data I hope to
get says something about it. Weissgerber buys them from a very
small company owned by (you guessed it) his wife. Regarding cost:
The only thing I know is they are still way out of my budget...
> Are the planes mentioned available in kit form? If they are not
> available as a kit, do you have any guesses as to how much they
> would cost if there was a kit?
No, there is no kit available. If it was, the ARIANE would probably
cost at least $400, the SOLARIANE probably at least twice as much.
The SOLARIANE was originally built in professional moulds (to achieve
the required quality) and it is said that it would be easily
reproducable if a small company would want to build them commercially.
I assume noone took the risk yet because I never heard about it any
more. Probably no way to earn money with the price the kit would cost.
> I noticed that the ARIANE 5 does not have a rudder. Is this correct?
Yes. There is a version with rudder, but the ones he brought along
and the one he set the records with don't have a rudder.
> I am also interested in more detail about the ailerons and how they
> are attached to the wing. You said: "The control surfaces don't
> have conventional hinges, but their upper surface is laminated into
> the wing! No gap, no step. " Please explain further!!!
I think this is clearer now from the recent discussion than I could
have ever explained it.
> It would also be interesting if you can supply details of the planes
> such as wing area, weight, typical current for the motor, airfoil
> used, and any other similar data.
Motor current is in the range of 30 to 50 amps (can exceed 60 under
special circumstances). I'll let you know more precise data when I
find them. This is, of course, only for ARIANE!
> I assume both planes have a 2m wingspan. Metric units are OK.
No, 2m is only for the ARIANE 5. The SOLARIANE is designed for solar
power only. This means it flies very slowly, has a low wing loading
etc. Typical motor current is probably less than 5 amps, maybe less
than one. More accurate data on SOLARIANE hopefully on Wednesday.
Regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.10 | Access to Hectoplett motors and Italian props... | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Wed Dec 19 1990 12:35 | 69 |
| Ed,
thanks for the progress update. Very interesting! I enjoyed
reading it (although - or because - your projects are beyond my
capabilities).
> Or Hectoplett 335 (mumble...) motors with ? cells. These are
> the most expensive motors, hence the interest and use by the
> Swiss (who hold the int'l record..). Hartmut, you have any
> access to these...? ;-)
Haven't tried yet. My budget somehow reduces the interest in the
most expensive motors. But Plettenberg (manufacturer of
Hectoplett motors) frequently advertises in the mags, so it
should be possible to get motor data, prices and finally the
motor. Currently, I don't have any of this. If you want to get a
price list/catalog/whatever is available, you may want to
contact Gerhard Plettenberg directly. His address is:
Gerhard Plettenberg
Werner-Hilpert-Strasse 15
D-3500 Kassel
West Germany
Tel.: (from Italy) 0049-561-77 29 55
You may ask for distributors in Italy, too. If you have any
problem (only German info, motors not available in Italy,
whatever) let me know. I will be happy to help if I can.
BTW, the speed record, as far as I know, was set by Franz
Weissgerber (Germany) with his Ariane 5. My entries regarding
this plane have just been placed as preceeding replies by our
great moderator (Thanks, Al!). It was powered by a Plettenberg
motor and reached 250 km/h. Main contributor was the airfoil
DU mumble mumble, look for data in the airfoil file.
With a stock ULTRA 2000 motor (GRAUPNER) the
same plane still made 244 km/h. Not sure what the Hectoplett's
will cost, the ULTRA 2000 is about DM 500,-, but it's readily
available even in Kaufbeuren's hobby shops and also through
Hobby Lobby in the US. But maybe this data is already old
(speed record of 250 km/h, set by Franz Weissgerber).
Regarding number of cells in F3E - as far as I know, the
'big class' (don't know how it is really called) has a
weight limitation for the batteries: 1.1 kg max. This leads
to the 27 cells of 900 mAh, and people seem to prefer higher
voltage (more, but smaller cells) than would be achievable with
1200 mAh cells.
Now I've got a question regarding carbon fibre props:
> Home made. Epoxy/C-F high-speed profile. Folding. Use several
> different sizes. Presently using a 32 x 15 (12.6 x 6) tapered
> for the 12 cell setup. This is another art and the fellow
> making them at the club also make them for the Italian
> champions in electrics. Uses female molds and carbon roving.
> We trade...
Is there any chance to extend the trade to here? 12.6 x 6 might
be exactly the dimension I'm looking for (I'll make sure by
looking up Keller's recommendation for my setup MPX FIESTA SF,
Ke 40/10, 12 cells 1200 SCR). I currently fly it with the
GRAUPNER 11 x 7 folding prop, but I assume a larger diameter and
carbon fibre might help performance. Please let me know if you
see a chance to get a pair of blades for me.
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.11 | Plettenberg and Ultra motors | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Wed Jan 16 1991 08:24 | 17 |
| Ed,
I just received a new mag yesterday (Aufwind, a special magazine for
gliders, electrics and experimentals). They had some additional
reporting on the F3E world championship, and diagrams of the two most
interesting motors: the GRAUPNER ULTRA 2000 and the PLETTENBERG
HP355/40 6 (this means: 355: armature-diameter, 40 armature-length,
6: number of windings). The power of these motors is _VERY_ similar,
and rumors have it that the ULTRA motors are made by Plettenberg, too.
Main difference is that they are machine-wound while the HP are
hand-wound. The ULTRA 2000 is readily available at a hobby shop here in
Kaufbeuren at DM 379,- (I thing the retail price is DM 498,-).
Just let me know when you need me...
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.12 | What F3E is all about | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Wed Jan 16 1991 08:38 | 24 |
| Here are some numbers to get an idea what F3E is all about. If you want
to be among the first ten in Germany, you must have at least 22 times
the distance of 150 meters. Only Franz Weissgerber regularly achieves
24 and sometimes 25 or 26 times...
The flight has to be completed in 180 seconds. Reduce it by 45-50
seconds of climb, 20 seconds for the distant turnarounds and 15 seconds
for the close turnaround, there are only 90-95 seconds for the real
distance. All in all they ruin a height of about 1000 m (with three
climbups) in this time. This means a flying speed of 53 m/s or 190
km/h or 120 mph. This means you have to turn around every 3 seconds.
With every turn the plane sees an acceleration of 20-25 g, this
corresponds to a load of 65 kg (143 lb) on the wing that weighs 400 g
(14 oz). This is really high-tech and $$$.
Equipment for the first twenty in Germany is: GRAUPNER/JR mc-18 radio
system, motors from Plettenberg or GRAUPNER ULTRA, controllers from
Sommerauer or Schulze, batteries Sanyo cut-off. There just seems to be
virtually no other material in this class...
I think I'll better stay with the simple stuff and keep having fun.
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.13 | '92 F3E WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Mon Oct 12 1992 14:14 | 41 |
| FOURTH F3E WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS
******************************
PAPENDAL,ARNHEM,HOLLAND 16-23 AUGUST, 1992.
THE REPORT BELOW CAME FROM THE BEFA NEWSLETTER.
JERRY BRIDGEMAN OF THE USA FLEW AN INCREDIBLE 27 LEGS IN DISTANCE AND A
NEAR PERFECT DURATION TASK TO PUT HIM AT THE TOP IN ROUND ONE, A
POSITION FROM WHICH HE SELDOM SLIPPED. SWISS URS LEODOLTER WAS THE ONE
LEG WORTH OF POINTS BEHIND AND WORLD CHAMPION RUDI FREUDENTHALER WAS IN
THIRD POSITION. FOURTH WAS THE YOUNGEST PILOT(21 YRS) JASON PERRIN
(USA) AND ONLY POINTS SEPARATED THESE THREE. IN FACT, FROM ROUND TWO
ONWARDS THE TRIO PERRIN,BRIDGEMAN,FREUDENTHALER WERE AHEAD OF THE REST
AND THE ONLY ONES TO WIN ROUNDS. SCORING IS AGGREGATING THE BEST SIX
OF SEVEN ROUNDS AND AT THE END OF ROUND SIX BRIDGEMAN WAS 26 POINTS
AHEAD OF FREUDENTHALER WHO WAS JUST 5 AHEAD OF PERRIN. THIS WAS THE
BIGGEST LEAD ALL WEEK, BUT ANY SLIP IN THIS LAST ROUND COULD CHANGE THE
ORDER, FOR EACH'S DISCARD ROUND PUT MOST OTHER COMPETITORS SCORES TO
SHAME. ONLY THESE THREE PILOTS SCORED 27 LEGS IN DISTANCE, AND NOT
EVERYTIME. URS MIGHT HAVE, BUT CROSSED THE SAFETY LINE ON THE 26TH!
IN THE LAST ROUND SUPERLATIVES FAIL TO DESCRIBE RUDI'S PERFECTLY
REGULAR 27 LEG FLIGHT, CAREFULLY OBSERVED BY HUSHED SPECTATORS AND
OTHER COMPETITORS. JERRY FLEW SOON AFTER, AND CONCENTRATING, OR
NERVOUS, OR GIVEN A BAD CALL, HE CUT TWO GATES, FLYING 25 LEGS.
CUTTING JUST ONE WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, FOR HE
WAS ONLY ONE SECOND OUT IN DURATION TIME, WITH 4 SECONDS OF MOTOR TIME
AGAINST RUDI'S IDENTICAL DURATION SCORE OF 5 SECONDS MOTOR BUT PERFECT
TIMING. RUDI FREUDENTHALER OF AUSTRIA IS WORLD CHAMPION AGAIN! THERE
STILL HAS BEEN NO OTHER. THE FINAL STANDINGS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
1-RUDI FREUDENTAHLER(AUSTRIA)
2-JERRY BRIDGEMAN(USA)
3-JASON PERRIN(USA)
4-URS LEODOLTER(SWITZERLAND)
5-FRANZ WEISSGERBER(GERMANY)
6-MICHAEL GERINGER(AUSTRIA)
7-STEVE NEU(USA)
THE USA WON THE TEAM GOLD MEDAL.
|
| 386.14 | ............silence | KBOMFG::KNOERLE | | Mon Oct 12 1992 15:08 | 10 |
|
What an exciting report, almost like a psycho thriller. Heads up to the
team US - what a success. Your boys moving well along - World Champ
F3A, team world champ F3B, team world champ F3E (if I recall correct).
Where are our boys, eh ? At least Freudenthaler is speaking a German
language - well, kind of :-)
Bernd
|
| 386.15 | Waco 550-10 update | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Tue Oct 13 1992 16:20 | 23 |
| In fairness to Frank Weston, I must retract some of my earlier
statements about my WACO 550-10 kit. Getting 10 cells in this
bird is actually not that difficult. I learned some "new"
techniques for battery configurations by observing the F3E style
ships at KRC. I now have easily placed 10 cells in the Waco with
Rx battery and discrete on/off switch. I still do not like the
V-tail control arrangement and will be substituting a T-tail
with elevator only control via a fin mounted servo.
The flying weight with Ultra 900 motor and 10 1000 mah Sanyos
should be around 50 oz. This motor in my 64 oz. Arcus raised
some Eyebrows at power funflys, so it should be a good climber
at 14 oz. less weight! Hopefully I'll get the 4-5 climbouts to
around 1000 ft., that I am looking for.
I will report when it flys.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.16 | How??? Can you explain a little detailed? | LEDS::KLINGENBERG | | Wed Oct 14 1992 14:07 | 9 |
| Jim,
NOW you got me curious! What magic do these guys use that we both
didn't think of? Your message seems to indicate (I know it can't be
true:-) that there is plenty of room in the fuse now. But I guess not
plenty for the Ke70/4 yet, or does this even seem to be possible?
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.17 | Here's how | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Wed Oct 14 1992 16:58 | 14 |
| Hartmut,
The biggest difference is I substituted a Graupner Power
Switch 40 and 100 mah Rx battery for the Power Switch 20 on/off/bec.
I also removed the plastic battery templates I was using, which
provided just enough more clearance to get the batteries in. I
believe I could get the Keller 70/4 in now. I will wait to see
how the finished product flys before making any moves. If the
WACO flys well, I will probably experiment with the Keller Motor.
I am firm on the T-tail substitute.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.18 | New products | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Wed Dec 02 1992 14:42 | 21 |
| With the help of this notes file(Thanks Jean-Claude) I was able
to get the address of M.A.P., the French builder of the F3E ship,
the AURA 2.
The specs on this ship look very good and I have read it is of
all molded construction.
It also appears that Hobby Lobby will be carrying a new Czech
built motor which did quite well on 24 cells at the recent
world championships. This motor is currently available from
shops in England at very competitive prices.
If the Aura 2 is available, coupled with this new motor, a
very competitive commercially available f3e combination may
be possible at an affordable price.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.19 | Astro 60 FAI mods | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Wed Dec 02 1992 18:35 | 15 |
| The new Silent Flight Magazine had details of the equipment in use
at this year's F3E world championship.
Of particular interest to me were the "mods" made by the US team to
the Astro 60 FAI motors they used. Since these motors can be had
for $180, I was hopeful they were basically "stock".
According to the article the motors used had titanium shafts, lightened
cases and 7 turn(vs. 6 turn) armatures. The resulting motor weighed
less than 17 oz! They also use older Astro molded brushes, as the
new ones don't handle the 60 amp current as well.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.20 | Astro motors | KAY::FISHER | The higher, the fewer | Thu Dec 03 1992 12:47 | 14 |
|
> According to the article the motors used had titanium shafts, lightened
> cases and 7 turn(vs. 6 turn) armatures. The resulting motor weighed
> less than 17 oz! They also use older Astro molded brushes, as the
> new ones don't handle the 60 amp current as well.
Huh, at the National Sailplane Symposium Steve Neu(sp) told me his motor
was stock except for the lightening of the case.
Bye --+--
Kay R. Fisher |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################
|
| 386.21 | I heard the same | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Thu Dec 03 1992 14:39 | 22 |
| Kay,
Steve Neu also told me that the motor was stock except for
"lightening" of the case(at this year's KRC). It is possible that
Neu's motor is stock and his teamates(Bridgeman and Perrin) had
the more modified motors. This would make sense based on the data
table listed in the new MA which showed the weight of the ships
as follows:
Bridgeman - 2200 grams
Perrin----- 2250 grams
Neu-------- 2305 grams
Probably the author of the Silent Flight article talked with Bridgeman
who eventually finished in 2nd place. The difference in weight between
Bridgeman's ship and Neu's ship is about 3.5 oz. A stock Astro motor
weighs around 20.5 oz. So maybe Bridgeman's motor had the titanium
shaft and Neu's didn't.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.22 | Report of World Championship in Aufwind, too | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Fri Dec 04 1992 08:16 | 29 |
| When I came back home, I found the latest issue of Aufwind with
detailed reports of the world championships. Among others, it showed a
picture of the ASTRO 60 as used by the US team. I wouldn't have
recoginzed it as an ASTRO. Of course, if you take a close look, you see
the 4 brushes, but the housing consists mainly of holes.
They didn't talk about a Ti shaft, but the material the machined off
the housing is amazing! It's got lightening holes in the front right
behind the front plate, between the brush holders and a whole lot
removed where the magnets are held. It's not round there any more, but
has a couple of flat surfaces all around, I assume to use as little
metal in the yoke as possible.
Seems the majority of the leading motors are now - besides the ASTRO
(which is only used by the US team, I think) - Robbe pro and
Hektoplett. Most of them are significantly reworked/lightened.
Freudenthaler has a rule of thumb: 10% less weight = 10% faster climb =
10% longer flight. Clear as mud, I'd say. I guess I'm far from building
models light enough to make it worth fiddling with the motor...
They also wrote about the Tchekeslovakian (sp?) motor which will
soon be available in Germany, probably for a very competitive price.
I will enter a list of equipment used in the chapionships as I find
time.
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.23 | F3E questions galore! | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Fri Dec 04 1992 12:21 | 22 |
| Welcome back home Hartmut!
I recently wrote for information on how to subscribe to Aufwind.
The cost was posted at 62 dm, I am really looking forward getting
it and will ask for occassional help with words not in my German-
American dictionary.
Did the Aufwind article mention anything about the M.A.P. Aura 2
which was supposedly used by the Italian team? The reason I am
interested, is this model is rumored to be commercially available
and of all molded construction. The specifications about it look
real good.
Also did the article mention any of the large electric gliders
which were flown?
Just curious if you took any American RC stuff back for your personal
use?
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.24 | Have to bring the mag in | KBOMFG::KLINGENBERG | | Fri Dec 04 1992 14:11 | 51 |
|
Hi Jim,
> I recently wrote for information on how to subscribe to Aufwind.
> The cost was posted at 62 dm, I am really looking forward getting
> it and will ask for occassional help with words not in my German-
> American dictionary.
sure, I'm looking forward to help you out on this.
> Did the Aufwind article mention anything about the M.A.P. Aura 2
> which was supposedly used by the Italian team? The reason I am
> interested, is this model is rumored to be commercially available
> and of all molded construction. The specifications about it look
> real good.
I'm not yet through the technical part of the article, but it stated
there are not many changes to the last world championships, so it's
not too long. Main changes was a trend to smaller models (wingspans)
with the US team - obviously successfully - having the smallest.
I'll double check on the Aura 2, but think I only read about it in this
notesfile.
> Also did the article mention any of the large electric gliders
> which were flown?
Yes, they said that they try to fly the large ones like F3E and this
doesn't look nice. Way too strong motors and everything. They assume
that they will have some rule changes for the big ones soon.
> Just curious if you took any American RC stuff back for your personal
> use?
Sure. I spent enough money to put the radio purchase off for at least
another year - unless I sell something:-(
I bought 2 Pinnacle Hi-Starts from NSP, one for the Fiesta, one for HLGs.
I also got a Spirit (to be electrified, but probably with a geared motor),
a Spirit 100 (cheap entry into 4-servo-wing, maybe also to become electric)
and a Talon for the slope. So far it was planned. In addition, I found a
Bird of Time on sale for $40 and a Genesis HLG flying wing for $20 and
couldn't resist. Also some minor stuff (iron-on coatings, latch hooks etc.).
For non-personal use (friends) I bought a used ENYA 120, a used Tartan Twin,
another Talon, a Skeeter HLG, another Spirit 100, 1 Gremlin, 1 Gremlin wing
core set and 2 Chuperosa wing core sets. And some minor stuff as well. No
Astro motor or radio equipment (this time).
Best regards,
Hartmut
|
| 386.25 | MAP AURA INFO | MISFIT::BLUM | | Tue Dec 15 1992 14:32 | 29 |
| I received the information from France on the M.A.P. AURA 2 F3E
glider.
It is available in 10 and 27 cell configuration for 1700 and 2108
Francs respectively($426 and $325 @.1913 exchange rate).
It is of all molded construction employing a wing using rohacell
and carbon fiber spar.
Silent FLight reported this ship was used at this year's World
Championship F3E comp. by the Italian team. At least one member of
the Italian team achieved 23 laps in the distance event, so it is
competitive with the best ships in the world. In FAI dress it
weighs 91 oz.
To my knowledge this is the only competitve F3E ship available on the
commercial market. At $50 more than the Aeronaut Sunfly and probably
hundreds less than the Surprise II, it represents good value.
For the first time it is possible to have a world class F3E ship with
"off the shelf" components. The price is high for these items, but
until now you had to "roll your own".
I hope to be able to purchase one of these. I will need to investigate
shipping cost and duties.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.26 | More Aura 2 info | MISFIT::BLUM | | Thu Jan 07 1993 12:48 | 25 |
| I received another letter from M.A.P. in France with additional
information about shipping the AURA 2 F3E gliders to the USA.
It is estimated that the cost to ship 1-4 sailplanes is about
800 FF = $160(ouch!) + any applicable USA duties.
I will call Ed Slegers and ask him his experiences with buying
the 4 Freudenthaler gliders from Austria.
If USA duties are minimal or non-existent, I may attempt to
find a couple other buyers and go for it.
The letter included 3 35mm color photos, including a 3"x6"
closeup of the Aura 2. If the gliders M.A.P. is shipping
are the same as the one's in these photos, the quality is
fantastic!
Damn the shipping and duties, these are beautiful gliders!!!!!
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.27 | Import update | MISFIT::BLUM | | Tue Jan 12 1993 13:19 | 27 |
| I spoke with Ed Slegers(RCSD columnist) about the fees associated
with importing model airplanes(specifically the M.A.P. AURA 2).
He already has 4 Auras on order!
Ed says the duty fro model airplanes is 6.8% of declared value, and
customs fees are about $150.
He will sell an Aura for $850, which is about $50 more than you could
import one yourself. I think it is worth $50 to let him take the
risk.
Ed also carries the Freudenthaler Surprise III for $850.
So while these ships are pricey, world class performance is available
for this with large wallets.
The ships themselves are about $450-$500, it's the shipping and import
duties which put them out of sight.
Guess I'll continue trying to perfect my composite building skills!
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.28 | Modellhaus offerings | MISFIT::BLUM | | Fri Jan 15 1993 11:55 | 24 |
| I finally received a reply from Modellhaus in England.
A list of the products which can be delivered now or soon was
included.
Of interest to me is the Trabi F3E fuselage, made of Kevlar,
27 cell capable, weight = 130 grams. Price is 33 lbs.
All moulded RG15 wings will be available in the spring.
If there are no shipping problems, I will be ordering a Trabi
fuselage ASAP.
The MEGA F3E motor is available for 124.7 lbs.
The owner of Modellhaus is Dave Jones who is an accomplished
sailplane pilot.
I'll report on my ordering experience.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.29 | TRABI fuz arrives! | MISFIT::BLUM | | Wed Feb 17 1993 11:56 | 19 |
| I received the TRABI fuselage from Modellhaus last night. I am
VERY pleased with it. It is kevlar, with white gelcoat.
Little additional finishing will be necessary, it weighs 130 grams
and can accomodate up to 27 cells! It was manufactured by
Pekris in Czechoslovakia. It cost $65 delivered.
I have just ordered a MEGA R7 motor from Modellhaus to be run on
24 cells with the Trabi fuse and a 2 meter RG15 wing. This will be
my first F3E ship.
Modellhaus is stocking soft competition brushes for the Mega motors
and carbon fiber props in a wide range. F3E equipment is slowly
becoming available at better prices. The TRABI fuselage is a prime
example.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.30 | Mega motor arrives! | MISFIT::BLUM | | Tue Mar 02 1993 14:22 | 10 |
| Last night the Mega R7 motor (Czech built) arrived from Modellhaus
in England. It was waiting along with 3 different sets of carbon
fiber props in my mailbox. I sent an international money order
which I got from my local bank for $15. There were no problems
I encountered. So I now have a great motor, fuselage and prop
selection. I need to build my own wing and stab.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.31 | F3E Update | MISFIT::BLUM | | Thu Jul 01 1993 21:09 | 40 |
| Just got done talking with Bob Sliff at Hobby Horn(714-893-8311).
I ordered a Steve Neu made speed controller($120). This is the same
unit that the USA F3E team used. It is small and robust. I highly
recommend it, as it is $100 cheaper than the Sommerauer unit and
smaller and lighter than the Astro 205.
Other F3E news, Jason Perrin will not be vying for a spot on this
year's F3E team. Bob Sliff(Hobby Horn owner and F3E team manager)
said Jason has graduated from college this year and did not want
to devote the time necessary to build, practice, and prepare for
the world championships. This is a big loss to the team, as Jason
has finished 3rd and 2nd respectively in the last two world champion-
ships. He was truly a world class competitor.
F3E remains in a very sad state in this country. Bob said only 6
people have signed up for the USA team qualifier in San Diego.
He mentioned that there was a group of seven in Texas that was
trying to get it going down there, but had fallen off to only
1 now.
The USA team is completely redesigning the Cad Cat pylon racer
and making changes to the F3E design. Steve Neu has a Robbe Pro
motor and is impressed with the performance. They are also
considering using Hectoplatt motors as the efficiency if better
than the Astro motors(owing to the brush design).
Jerry Bridgeman is the aerodynamics guy behind the USA F3E effort,
and Steve Neu can build both composite planes and does electronics.
They represent this country very well, I only wish we could get
more involvement. Thirteen people in a country of 250 million
is not too impressive. Wishful thinking!
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.32 | ex | MISFIT::BLUM | | Fri Jul 02 1993 13:58 | 30 |
| As an addendum to the previous note, I will include a few more
excerpts from my conversation with Bob Sliff. Bob is an excellent
source of information because as team manager he has been to several
World Championships and has seen the equipment/techniques used by the
best in the World.
-Hectoplatts remain the hands down favorite motor for F3E competition.
-Brush cooling provision is really needed in the F3E motors.
-A competitve F3E fuselage weighs about 3.5 oz.
-The wings of the best F3E ships weigh about 12 oz. and are unbreakable
due to flight loads. Bob witnessed several ships break up in the air
during practice, including the MAP AURA 2. I persisted that probably
a heavy thumb on pullout was responsible, but he remained adamant that
the best ships simply cannot be broken in flight. The team apparently
has tried to break the ships and has not been successful!
-The construction of a world class F3E ship is very labor intensive,
requiring 4 different vacuum bagging operations. Even the fuselages
are utilizing Rohacell sandwich construction.
-No real good props are available commercially. Custom made props are
the norm and are usually sanded to shape, based on empirical testing.
-The new Robbe Pro motors appear to be quite competitive.
-Hobby Horn is selling a kevlar reinforced glass F3E fuselage for $80.
|
| 386.33 | Surprise II ready | MISFIT::BLUM | | Mon Aug 30 1993 20:51 | 20 |
| The RFM Surprise II is complete and ready for its maiden flight.
I am nervous because I have not flown since the 2nd week in July
and the cost of this ship makes a crash seem unthinkable. This is
my only flyable electric right now and I want to take it to KRC
Sept. 18th. I feel pressure!
Initially the Surprise II will be flown on 10 1000mah cells using
a Keller 70/4 and MH 12.5x6.5 prop. All up weight in this confi-
guration is 62 oz.
Flight results will be posted.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.34 | We await your results | GAUSS::REITH | Jim 3D::Reith MLO1-2/c37 223-2021 | Tue Aug 31 1993 12:06 | 5 |
| Best of luck, Jim. I'm sure it'll fly right out of the box with
all the effort you've put in. Just take it easy initially and
slowly widen the envelope. Looks like it might be a bit breezy
the next few days though. But then maybe that's what you need to
get a slower ground speed on landing.
|
| 386.35 | It flew! | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Tue Sep 07 1993 11:58 | 16 |
| The first flights of the Surprise II happened this weekend. All in all
it went very well. The climb on 10 cells with a Keller 70/4 spinning
a 12.5 x 6.5 MH prop was very good. It flys right out of my hand
and climbs immediately. This prop is certainly more efficient than
the 10 x 6 used in the past.
I am still sorting the trims out and trying to get the
spoilerons/elevator coupling dialed in.
The aerobatic and high speed capabilities will be tested after the
KRC meet(Sept. 18-19).
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.36 | | GAUSS::REITH | Jim 3D::Reith MLO1-2/c37 223-2021 | Tue Sep 07 1993 12:03 | 1 |
| Congrats Jim. Does the performance meet your expectations?
|
| 386.37 | I like it! | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Tue Sep 07 1993 13:39 | 21 |
| re: -1
Jim,
I am satisfied so far, particularly with the climb on 10 cells
owing to an AUW of 62 oz. It is also easy to change 10 cell packs.
I think balancing with 20 cells will be tricky, however.
I only got 4 flights due to run down RX and TX packs and rain.
With over $1000 in hardware in this ship, I was really babying it.
Also, I want to be able to take it to KRC in 2 weeks without damage.
Overall I am very impressed with the ship.
Regards,
Jim
|
| 386.38 | | GAUSS::REITH | Jim 3D::Reith MLO1-2/c37 223-2021 | Tue Sep 07 1993 13:52 | 9 |
| Yeah, things get expensive when you get away from the 7cell ships. How
did you decide on the prop/cell combination? Where'd you get the 1000mah
cells? I'm still figuring on using the Astro 25 cobalt with the Jet
fuselage on 16 cells but haven't decided on an airfoil or prop yet. I
have an SR Batteries gift certificate so I'll probablyu order the
batteries from them. I'd like to go with the 1000mah cells as well but
none of the places at the shows I've been to have had them in stock.
What airfoil is the Surprise using?
|
| 386.39 | | UNYEM::BLUMJ | | Tue Sep 07 1993 17:46 | 31 |
| RE; -1
Jim,
The Keller 70/4 is optimized for use with 10 cells. I was using
it with 14 cells in my Calibra with a 10-6 Aeronaut prop. The 70/4
is designed to spin a large prop on 10 cells and is capable of
handling 80 amps for 30 seconds. Based on information published
in a British magazine by one of their F3E team members, I decided
to use the 12.5-6.5 as a starting point. It appears to be just
about right and is turning 8000+ RPM. Run time is around 1 minute
with the 1000mah cells.
The Surprise uses the RG15 airfoil(who isn't these days?)
I get my batteries from TNR(see RCSD), both the 1000 and the 1400 mah
are $3.50 each(lowest price I have seen). If you buy them don't get
solder tabs which impede soldering the pack.
Actually I am kind of in shock right now that I actually bought the
plane. I am not comfortable flying(or even building for that matter)
a model in this price range. Must have been temporary insanity. Sure
hope I get a lot of good flights!
Regards,
Jim
|