Conference vmszoo::rc

    WANTED..... RC RACE CAR...USED
    
    GRASSHOPPER, HORNET, OR FOX
    
    ANYONE OUT THERE WHO WANTS TO SELL A USED CAR PLEASE LET ME KNOW
    I'M IN THE MARKET FOR MY SON'S BIRTHDAY.
    

I have a Mugen Bulldog II.  It's a 4WD so it's more complicated than I want 
to mess with.  I was never able to get the differentials to work just right.
As a result, the main differential has a cracked/broke/? nut on it (too much
tightening I guess).  The rest of the is car fine.  I'd be willing to sell 
it for $10 + shipping.  I don't think it would be appropriate for your 
son, but it should be a good deal for someone with the time and inclination 
to tweak it. 

Monte 
(Raleigh, NC)

p.s. I think I'll stick with gliders.

    
    	A friends son has a "Rockbuster" which is from World Engines
    and is an exact copy of a Grasshopper that he wants to get rid of.
    If you want I'll check into what he wants for it.
    
    						tom

re: .2  

Wow, response is good.  I've sold the Bulldog.

Thanks everyone.

Monte

    
      An RC store has just opened in the center of Derry, N.H. and there
    was a used Fox in the window. 
    
      Have you considered mailorder/new?
    
      /Brian	

    Yes I have looked mail order. It looks like about $156.00 complete
    with car, controller, batttery, and charger from mail order. The
    problem is I would hate to spend that much money on something my
    son may loose interest in a month later. $156.00 dust collector.
    If anyone else has a dust collector that want to get rid of let
    me know.

                <<< COGMK::VTX$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RC.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< Welcome to the Radio Control conference >-
================================================================================
Note 179.6              WANTED GRASSHOPPER,FOX, OR HORNET                 6 of 6
WFOVX0::KROSTOSKI                                     8 lines   1-JUN-1987 23:16
                                -< GO for it   >-
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    May I suggest spending another $20.00 and get a hornet instead.
    I feel it will be a better buy in the long run.  As for loosing
    interest I feel if you try the car after building it WITH YOUR SON
    there will be no loss of interest for either of you.  I have a 10
    year old daughter and a 12 year old son who love their cars.  Racing
    the r/c cars at our local track is a great family hobby.  The money 
    spent on our cars is well spent WITH MY CHILDREN. Get out there
    with your kids and have a ball!
    			Dennis Krostoski
    

    The 'hopper is a decent car to learn on, but it isn't competitive
    in any sense of the word.  Reasons:
    	
    	1) Frame - it's not as abuse-proof as most other off-road 
    		cars.  OK if you don't abuse it.
    	2) Front susp - is not particularly good.  Can be upgraded somewhat
    		with aftermarket hop-up parts
    	3) Rear susp - there AINT ANY!  The rear axle, diff, reduction
    		gearing, and motor all are a rigid unit, unsprung
    		as far as the ground is concerned.  Result is that the
    		grasshopper behaves as it's namesake - it HOPS given
    		the slightest provocation.  This is poor in straightaways
    		and Death Incarnate on a curve.  This isn't fixable
    		even with hop-up parts.
    	
    	
    Conclusion:  You'll quickly get bored with it, and it'll end up
    costing you MORE to keep the 'hopper running than it would to buy
    a decent (more amenable) car (I'm counting cost of aftermarket parts
    as "needed").
    
    Recommendations: Frog (for 2WD) or Hot/Supershot for 4WD.  I've had
    both of these vehicles and can vouch for their durability and handling.
    If anything, the frog is slightly less forgiving but slightly more
    durable. (The Frog has 4 wheel independent suspension, and a very
    strong rear end that is easy to maintain.) Either can be highly
    competitive with some aftermarket parts.
    
    Whatever you buy, get the ball bearings for it, from day 1.  The
    bushing bearings last OK in clean conditions, but they wear quickly
    once exposed to dust and dirt.  BB cars also run faster and longer
    on a battery charge.         
               
    4WD (like xShots and Bulldogs, etc) don't always run faster; just
    usually do.  They also tend to get stuck less often, and handle
    slightly better on the curves (less spinout tendency).  The 4WDs
    do have more parts and hence are slightly more delicate than the
    2WD units (my Frog was once RUN OVER by a 110lb bicyclist- no damage!)
    
    
    Possible plan: Get a 'hopper with the INTENT to sell it if/when
    you get the urge for something more capable.  Figure you will be
    able to get $.40 on the dollar, maybe less.  Buying used is also
    a good plan.   
    
    Is the $150 a ceiling for you, or is it OVER your ceiling?  Does
    it include radio, servos, BEC, electronic speed control (replaces
    the standard resistor/switch/servo setup) and charger?  
    

    BEC == Battery Eliminator Circuit.  A $9 gizmo that uses the propulsion
    battery power to run the radio.  A good idea on a car with electronic
    speed control, otherwise it's big saving is in not having to hassle
    with 4 AA cells.
    	
    There's an entire note on electronic versus switched-resistor speed
    controls.  I have burned out switched-resistor systems, but have
    never had a problem with my electronic controller.  
    
    Where are you located?  Maybe someone here has something used to
    sell you.
    

    It seems that a lot of the electronic speed controllers have the
    Battery Eliminator Circuitry built into them, so you may save a
    few bucks there.  I can't see spending $9 on what amounts to a 3
    terminal regulator and a switch....
    
    Willie
    

    Aren't the Frog, Hornet, Foxes and Ultima's all 2wd cars? If the
    majority of your club has 2WD would you really want a 4WD car?
    
    I have a Turbo Optima (my only car) and am very happy with it. 
    I don't get much chance to race anyone so I can't tell you how
    competitive it is with some of the other cars.  However, my brother
    in-law also has a Turbo Optima and has raced it frequently.  He
    only looses to one other Turbo Optima.  Beware that a 4-WD car like
    the Optima requires alot of maintainance to keep it running well.
    I have only broken one part (front hub) by slamming into a parked
    car (real smart on my part).
    
    I have used a few Kyosho after market products such as swing shafts
    and the belt drive kit.  I have not put in modified motors as the
    car is faster than I can really handle until my driving skill improves.
    Although I have seen other notes complaining about Kyosho kit
    instructions I found them to be excellent and had no trouble putting
    it together.
    
    By the way where are you located?
    
    Todd
    

    
    
    	If you're really in for a 4wd car as mentioned in .1, I would
    go instead for the Optima Mid.  It's really tricked-up, from the
    belt drive to the 48 pitch gears It's a sure winner in good driver
    hands.  It's based on the same car that conquered 5 of the ten top
    places in the 1987 IFMAR world champs.  To race this car against
    a Frog, Hornet or Fox would be really unfair...
    
    If you're for a 2wd car either go to the Ultima or the RC10, these
    are currently the best in 2wd, the Ultima being a more recent design.
    
    

    If you want 4WD I totally agree with the recommendation to go to
    the Optima-Mid.  The chain drive in the Optima is not worth putting
    in because it breaks and is ineffecient.  I have replaced my chain
    drive with a belt drive and would recommend that anyone building
    a new Optima do the same.
    
    However the cost of the chain drive kit is probably around $35 and
    the cost delt between the Turbo Optima and the Optima-Mid is $100.
    For the extra $65 you get all the benifits of the Optima-Mids improved
    drive train (48 pitch gears).
    
    I forgot about the Optima-Mid when I wrote my earlier reply.
    
    Todd
    

    Thanks for the quick response.  I'm located in southern California,
    L.A. area.  The reason I was going to the Optima line is because
    it seems like every carries parts.  I live 4 miles from Hobby Shack
    and I wanted to be able to get parts with out waiting on mail. 
    I am concerned about getting too fast of a car, my driving skill
    is not of the pro status yet (I wish).  I also thought the 4wd might
    help when running on sand.  The Turbo Optima comes with some better
    components.  Will the oil filled shocks add better handling?
    

    You really should consider a Fox or a Falcon.Both these
    cars are competitive right out of the box and Hobby shack
    has the spare parts if you need them.
    
    
    						Good Luck
    
    						Kevin

    Maybe I'm partial because I own one but my suggestion is to go with
    the rc 10. I won't look at a kyosho, seen to many break to easy.Of
    course the rc10 is'nt bullet proof, Ive replaced the stock servo
    saver with a hot tricks kit (the stock set up was far to weak).
    Ask around, go to some races and see what everyone else runs.
                                                          Jim

    
    
    (re .3)
    
    	The price of the Mid-optima is $199 vs $209 for the Turbo Optima
    in the latest Tower Hobbies catalog.  The Mid is $10 cheaper than
    the Turbo, not $100 more expensive as you say.
    
    
    (re .5) 
    
    	I've had an Ultima for a year now.  It has never broke a part,
    all I've replaced are parts worn out under normal use.  I race heavily
    every weekend and this car has been an RC10 killer since day one.
    The only times I have lost has been due to a defective part behind
    the steering wheel (ME!).  However I must agree that the factory speed 
    control isn't worth a .... (replace it with a tekin or novak ESC).
    
    I have raced against all sort of RC10's from stock form to highly
    modified graphite-chasis versions and I must admit its the only
    other car I would take a serious look at... 
                                                                      
    
    

    According to the back cover of RC Action Magazine (May) the new
    Tamiya Thunder Shot 4wd buggy recently "creamed" both the Optima's
    and RC10's!  I just happen to own one (picked it up in Hong Kong)
    and it's pretty impressive.  Needs 16 bearings -- buy them before
    you build it, I had to dissasemble mine 2 weeks later and put them
    in.  

    After many hours with my face buried in the Tower catalogue, and
    several trips to the Hobby store, I bought a Hirobo Alien 4wd Mid.
    This car is comes complete with a bearing kit and the gold shocks.
    This car uses a belt drive setup, with the belt under a cover that
    runs the length of the body.  It uses mostly plastic body parts.
    The design is very clean and the instructions are legible.  I race
    with three other guys.  Two of them have Kyosho Ultima's and one
    has a Pegasus.  We all have 540 motors.  Athough in the top end
    they had a slight edge on me, I blew them away in the corners.  The
    thing sticks to the ground like a tank.  A couple of times the
    Ultima's would try to force me out of the picture but they tended
    to fly into the bushes or such, while I continued on my merry way.
    Tower does not have the Alien so you would have to get it through 
    your local dealer, but parts come in, in about a week.  I know this
    because, I was too impatient to wait until I got bumpers, and I broke
    the section the the swing arm pin goes through.  I recommend the
    Alien, if you can get it.
    
    Jeff McNaney

    I bought a ThunderShot as my first car.  I admit I really didn't
    do very much research; just made an impulse buy. 
    
    I installed a LeMans 360G motor and a taller pinion gear, and a full
    bearing set.  The car was incredibly quick; it is a real featherweight
    design.  My first indoor race took home a 2nd place tropy, and me
    with no skills whatsoever.
    
    What I didn't like was the lack of caster adjustment, and the cheap
    plastic shocks which break in a good impact (I know, don't do that).
    Also, the front shock spring tends to bend the lower control arms.
    
    After much frustration in getting replacement parts and finding
    a good indoor suspension setup, I gave up and bought an Optima Mid.
    The Mid is everything I expected the Thundershot to be.  I have
    very little skill in this sport, but even I can make the Mid handle
    like a dream.  The quality of the Kyosho parts is much better, in
    my opinion.  Replacement parts are reasonably easy to find.  The
    suspension is adjustable umpteen different ways.  The car feels solid
    as a rock compared to the totally plastic Thundershot.
                                
    With a Twister 702 motor and an 18 tooth pinion, the Mid screams.
    However, for beginners, I'd recommend a large front bumper.  The
    stock bumper is the size of a stamp and offers no protection.
    
    
    

    A few more comments on the Optima Mid vs the Tamiya Tundershot...
    
    The Thundershot uses a shaft to transmit power to the front wheels.
    This requires an extra pair of bevel gears at each differential
    to transfer the power.  This is a rather inefficient way to transfer
    power, as compared to the Optima's simple belt drive.  As a consequence
    of these extra gears, the Thunderhot makes quite a racket; it sounds
    like a high speed blender.  The Optima is eerily quiet.
    
    Now that I have gained quite a bit more experience on different
    types of surfaces, I can assess what my problem was with the
    Thundershot.  The stock springs are far too stiff.  The car is so
    light that there is virtually no suspension movement in hard cornering,
    so the car tends to radically understeer with the power on, and
    radically oversteer with the power off.  I believe this could
    be remedied with replacement springs of much lower rate that still
    maintain the stock ride height and hence wheel camber.
    
    I may yet resurrect the Thundershot and try to get it set up properly.
    With it's super lightweight design, the acceleration is truly amazing.
    
    Ed.
    

    Shaft drive is much more reliable than belt drive or
    chain drive.Also the Thundershot's shocks are adjustable
    and can be made very soft,softer still if you use lighter
    oil in the shocks.The Super Shot I used to have was very
    quiet running and when I needed the odd spare part I had
    no problem getting it.In the races I was in last year I never
    once failed to see a breakdown of a Kyosho belt or chain drive
    car while shaft drive car breakdowns were almost nil.
    
    
    						Kevin

    I found that the Tamiya propellor joints (these are slotted joints
    that hold the drive shaft at either end) had become spread open
    after abusive acceleration.  This had the effect of increasing the
    free slop in the gear train.  I'm not sure this had any effect on
    performance.
    
    I can't comment on the Kyosho reliability, since the car is still
    pretty new....
    
    I did use light oil in the Thundershot shocks.  The spring adjustment
    has nothing to do with the spring rate, nor does the damping.  I
    believe the spring rate is far too high.  The spring rate is only
    a function of the wire diameter, body diameter, number of coils,
    and material used.  Trimming coils off of a spring makes it stiffer.
    Adding coils makes it softer.
    
    The best way to soften the spring rate is to use a smaller wire
    diameter.  Like I said in .11, I may still try this and give the
    Tamiya another chance.
    
    
    

    I converted my Optima from a chain drive to a belt drive.  I DID
    have problems with the chain drive but have never had a problem
    with the belt.  The belt changed the personality of my car.  I runs
    quieter and is more efficient.  I can't think of how the belt will
    fail so I'd be interested if you know of specific failure modes
    for the belt drive.  I've put quite a few hours on my belt and it
    shows no sign of wear.
    
    Todd
    

    seems like all the cars that your friends have are 2wd. yuo might
    consider buying the optima which is a very good car but go for the
    new optima mid or get a 2wd like your friends.
    

    I have also had some problems with the front suspension on my
    ThunderShot.The front tires toe in radically if you soften the front
    shock.  I just replaced the front monoshock with dual shocks and
    it seems to have helped a bunch!  The biggest problem seems to be
    that the top suspension arm is not long enough.  A friend and I
    are in the process of making new ones.  This only seems to be a
    problem with pavement racing.  When offroad, with 2-3 spacers in
    the shocks, no problem.
    
    Diane