Conference vmszoo::rc

    Brian,
    
    If you don't mind my asking, what's yer' skill level.  I only ask
    since these "sexy racers" can be quite a handful for the fledgling
    R/Cer.  The stiff, narrow-track, taildragger landing gear setup
    will be especially challenging.trying for a less experienced pilot
    but, if you have 3 or 4 sport-type birds under yer' belt, you should
    overcome this and enjoy the snappy performance available from the
    Gee-Bee's.
    
    Unless yer' "quite" experienced, I'd recommend you stick to the
    model-Y Sportster as the short coupled R-1 type is fully capable 
    of eating even the expert pilot's lunch!
    
    The Coverite kit produces a nice model but I'm not sure that anyone
    else kits the Sportster.  Henry (Mr. Gee-Bee) Haffke has plans
    available for several larger sizes, check Model Aviation's plans
    service, but you may wish to start with the kit to find out whether
    you like the bird or not (and whether it likes you). 
    
    Adios,	Al

    Brian,
    
    I goofed on the model designations in my reply (-.1).  It is the
    "E" (not the "Y") and Sportster models that are of the friendlier 
    persuasion.  The "Y" ("Spirit of Springfield, Mass.") and "R-1"
    models were the short-coupled little demons that had the (undeserved
    according to some) reputations as man-killers and are "verrry" dif-
    ficult models to handle.
    
    Except for slightly "dicey" ground handling, the Coverite kits make
    fine sport models for the modeler with some low-wing and taildragger
    experience.  Be aware, however, that they "are not" trainers and
    should be "worked up to" if yer' still in the preliminary stages
    of learning to fly R/C.
    
    Adios again,	Al

	Al,

	I certainly respect your words of caution regarding the handling of 
	Geebee.  I've now been as model for four years, and have built and 
	flown several trainers and motorized gliders, a sportster 40
	w/ a O.S. SP 45 w/tp(flies very nice by the way), a top flight 
	contender 60, a balsa USA citabria pro, ad a pits bi-plane.

	I AM interested in building a nice sport plan that is "HOT" but still
	not the type of bird that you are ALWAYS having to fly in front of.
	Perhaps the GeeBee isn't the bird fer me... I just really liked the 
	lines, and thought I'd inquire.  Have you any personal experience with 
	the model???  Do ya think it might be more than I'm ready for??  What 
	Model is the E-Model??  The only ones I've seen are the E model, and
	the sportster, but not sure of the difference other than cosmetic.
	Hadn't heard of the R1.
	
	Thanks for the input Al... It's greatly appreciated.  Ya sure seem 
	to have quite a few answers.

	
	Brian  "keep um out of the trees"

	I was intending to build the Gee Bee R1, but I drifted into
	Helicopters.... I shall build one sometime tho... The R1 is
	THE Gee Bee, tha one that looks like a backwards Coke bottle..
	Model Aviation do some 1/4 scale plans that come out at 72"..
	they also do the Gee Bee Z which is pretty much like thr R1
	but a bit thinner... Same size....

	The model E is a completely different plane, there are some
	1/4 scale plans in the UK for that one..... I don't think
	that ones very attractive tho...

	The Sportster that Coverite do is different again, I've only
	seen odd pictures of it.. Doesn't look like a real Gee Bee
	to me.....

        I haven't seen a model R or Z in the UK, which is one reason
	why I wanted to build one, let alone flown one... However the
	things I've read about both the R, Z, and Es is that despite
	their wierd shapes they are relatively easy to fly.... Check
	out the Haffke articles..... Got my interest up again now,
	maybe when I've finished the Hellcat, Pitts, and Jungmann...

	cheers

	bob	
	

    Brian,
    
    From the description of yer' past projects, I'd speculate the Coverite
    Gee-Bee would fit ya' just fine.  I only advanced caution for yer'
    consideration if you had "not" built/flown much more than beginner-
    types.  With the skill level you described you should get just what
    you want; a mildy hot but relatively friendly sport model.
    
    As to the various Gee-Bee production models, I'm getting a little
    confused, myself.  I KNOW the Sportster is a nicely proportioned/
    coupled ship with generous wing area as a friend in Texas has one
    he's campaigned for the past 6-yr.'s or so.  I, too, thought the
    model-E was similar to the Sportster with only cosmetic and, maybe,
    engine changes, i.e. the Sportster had a radial engine and the "E"
    had an inverted in-line engine....I still think that's correct.
    
    The "R-1" (as Bob Day has described) is the one most people think
    of when they hear "Gee-Bee."  It had a round, fat, stubby fuselage,
    not dissimilar in shapt to a pickle-barrel, with the cockpit placed
    WAY to the rear in the dorsal fin to the vertical stabilizer.  A
    huge radial engine was fitted and the wings were rather shorter
    than you'd think was appropriate.  This is the one in the classic
    paint scheme of white with red scalloped trim, a pair of dice and
    the number 7 or 11 on the side (there were two built).  Jimmy Doo-
    little flew this ship to several air-race victories and was (I believe)
    the only pilot who survived it, all the others being killed. 
    
    I think Bob is correct that it was the model "Z" (not the "Y") that
    was similar in appearance to the "R-1" but was more slender and
    a little more aesthetically pleasing to the eye.  This one (of which
    a flying replica was built a few years back) was yellow with black
    trim and had the legend "Spirit of Springfield, Massachusetts" on
    the radial engine cowl.
    
    This leaves me wondering what the "Y" was but I think it was another
    sport-type ship similar in appearance/application to the "E" and
    the Sportster...come to think of it, I think the "Y" "was" the Sport-
    ster.  If anyone can clarify, I'd (we'd) appreciate it.
    
    I've seen Granger Williams' (of Williams Bros.) models of both the
    "Z" and the "R-1."  Both flew reasonably but were VERRRRY sensitive
    owing to the extremely short coupling of the nose/tail moment arms.
    Both were also absolute man-eaters on the ground!! Granger never
    batted better than 500 for keeping it (them) right-side-up on lan-
    ding.
    
    That's why I proposed sticking to the friendlier "Sportster" types
    `til more experience is gained.  These are not above yer' skill
    level but I think the Z and R-1 probably are...I would hesitate
    a long time flying one myself.
    
    Hope I've helped..., adios,	Al

    Brian,
    
    Man! You really stirred up the ol' "gray-matter" with this Gee-Bee
    thing but I think I finally have it sorted out.
    
    Thr R-1 and Z models were the high performance racers as I described
    in reply -.5...no changes there.
    
    Both the "E" AND the "Y" models were designated "Sportsters;" the
    model-E Sportster having the in-line engine and the model-Y Sportster
    having the radial engine with the NACA cowl-ring. 
    
    There were other Granville Bros. (Gee-Bee) models but I'm gonna'
    quit while I'm ahead (I think).  If I'm not mistaken, a museum dedica-
    ted to the Granvilles and their aircraft exists in their home town
    of Springfield, Mass. which contains pictures, drawings, various
    vintage paraphernalia and (I believe) the full-scale flying replica
    of the "Z" I mentioned.  If yer' anywhere in the vicinity, it might
    be worth yer' while to look into it.  If you (or some other noter)
    should visit this historic museum, be sure to share the experience
    with us via RC_NOTES.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

	Thanks for the clarification Al.  I was also able to research the
	issue after I confused myself.  The models that are for sale by
	Coverite are the GeeBee sportster, model Y and E.  Personally
	I'm a radial fan, so I think my preference is the Y model.  This has 
	me think'n that perhaps a Wankel engine might fit the specifacations,
	since a real radial doesn't fit my budget.  Not that a Wankel is 
	anything like a real radial, but at least it's round! Any personal
	experience Al?

	I feel the R1 and the Z model aren't quite in my ball park... I once
 	made a Marks Models FUN scale pits, that had an unproportionally short 
	tail moment.  The flying characteristics were EXTREMELY touchy,
	in fact any rudder deflection send the bird into a violent spin.  I
	found it troublesome to do even a stall turn(hammer head).  Hence, I
	feel the R1 or Z model might perform likewise to some degree.  My past
	experience has been, that if the full scale bird was "dangerous", 
	then nine times out of ten the model has been a hand full as well.

	I'm still interested in any personal experience with this bird,  that 
	anyone can add. I really think this plane is "winner", and I'm kind
	of itching to get into it, but would also like to avoid any mistakes.


	Thanks in advance,

	Brian

P.S.  I live outside of Boston, Al.  So a trip to Sprignfield is
      definitely in the books... time permitting.  I'll be sure to
      fill you in when I go.

	/Brian

    Al,
    
    ugh!!!  Al, I was just flipping through a Towers Hobby cat., and
    they illustrate theE model radial engine and cowl.  
    Now I'm confused again!!!  I think you discribed the Y model 
    as having the radial... think we can get this cleared up 
    sometime. ;-)!!
    
    /Brian

    Yeh Bob, that R-1 is a real sharp looker, but I'm just a bit concerned
    about the flight characteristics.... Have you seen the model fly??
    Are you building from scratch??
    
    /Brian

	re .6   

	I'll go along with the R1 and Z descriptions.... There
	was also an R-2 and a model called the ZETA... The latter
	was the Granville's attempt to enter the world of commercial
	light planes.....

	I thought the model E had a radial (wasp) engine like the 
	R and Z. The sportster had the in line one.....

	love that R-1... Sometime I gonna make one

	cheers

	bob

	re .10


		I've not seen one in the UK, which made it all the
	more attractive.....

		I was going to try and get hold of the Model Aviation
	plan, but as I said my chopper came along, and interset in heavy
	plane building dropped off....

		I realise that I don't wanto give up planes and fly
	choppers exclusively, so am back building fixed wings...
	Trouble is I got several months work already planned so
	a Gee Bee would be well into next year.... I've got to 
	finish the Hellcat, finish the Pitts, then I've got my
	new Jungmann to build.... after that it's a definate 
	possibility, I have a decent .90 to go in it now aswell....

	cheers

	bob

    Brian,
    
    Sounds like, according to the catalog and Bob Day, we can simply
    swap the model-E with the "Y" and probably be no farther off than we
    are already (Hah!).  I'll be seeing my Texan buddy with the Gee-Bee
    at the Masters next weekend (if he attends; he's qualified) so I'll
    ask him to resolve the (self-induced) confusion we're experiencing.
    
    Bob's right about the Zeta, a model of one is pictured (in color)
    in this month's Scale R/C Modeler in the New England Masters Qualifier
    coverage.  I'm not sure what an R-2 was unless it was a development of
    the R-1.  At this point, the confusion factor is high enough regarding
    the 4-models we're already befuddled over so I'm quite willing not
    to care too much just what the R-2 was (Hah!).  If you could put
    yer' hands on it (them), Model Aviation ran a series of articles
    on the Gee-Bees from both historical and model perspectives a few
    years back. These articles were authored by Henry Haffke who is
    quite an authority on the Granville Bros. and their aircraft.  I'm
    sure the plan Bob Day refers to in Model Aviation is a Haffke plan.
    It was in one of Haffke's articles where I "think" I remember seeing
    that a commerative museum was being planned/built/something.  Please
    check to insure it exists before trying to find it.  CAN ANY NOTERS
    PROVIDE ANY INFO AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH A MUSEUM?
    
    By all means go ahead with yer' project...I believe yer' well qualified
    to handle a Sportster.  I test flew one a few years back and found
    it to handle quite nicely.  There "will" be a learning process if
    yer' not experienced with taildraggers but this should not be
    considered a deterent, especially if you fly from grass which takes
    much of the "bite" out of conventional gear. I, too, prefer the
    looks of the radial cowl but be aware that a Wankel is not as powerful
    as the everyday .40...I'm sure it'd work but you'd be wise to concen-
    trate on keeping weight down.  Also, radial cowls can be a pain
    to mount and keep tight with the delightful added habit of acting
    like a scoop shovel if you nose-over.  The in-line model would appear
    the more practical selection but, now yer' facing an inverted engine
    so the advantages/disadvantages seem to balance out...pick whichever
    model flips yer' switch and get started; every journey starts with
    the first step.  You'll do just fine!
    
    Adios,	Al
                 

	Al,
	
	I think we are finally cleared up! ;-)!! I wont
	write anything regarding the model, because it will 
	probably stir some more confusion. 

	You didn't comment on whether you had any personal experience with
	the Rotary engines???  I'm curious as to how much trouble they 
	can cause. ie.  Any starting/running problems.  I checked the
	specs on the O.S. "49" Wankel, and they claim it delivers 
	1.27 hp @17,000 rpm.  That's comparable to any "regular" 
	40 size engine I believe.

	I am used to flying tail-draggers off a grass strip, in fact the first
	bird a flew was a swizzle stick... and if you can prevent those things
	from squirm'n on the ground, you got the tg problem licked, at least
	that was my experience.  Hence I'm not really concerned 'bout that
	aspect of the bird.

	What I am concerned about, is the quality of coverite kits, since it
	seems that they are the only manufacturers of such kit and I'v yet
	to build one of them coverites. I don't think I'm ready for a
	scratch-built yet.

	Many thanks Al,

	Brian
	 
	

>    Bob's right about the Zeta, a model of one is pictured (in color)
>    in this month's Scale R/C Modeler in the New England Masters Qualifier
>    coverage.  I'm not sure what an R-2 was unless it was a development of

Al - I've got the magazine right in front of me.  Is it the Yellow Bipe on
page 41 and 42.  If so is sure fooled me (and a local expert) and I even have 
some incorrect notes on a photo I took of it.

P.S.  The red/deep red/gold Staggerwing Beech on the bottom of page 42 is the 
      one that crashed during a landing approach that I mentioned on my review
      of the competition earlier.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    o, the Zeta is not the bipe you're looking at.  I can't quote 
    you a page number but the Zeta is a low-wing, in-line engined bird
    with greenhouse enclosed canopy in a maroon paint-scheme. The color
    pic appears (I think) in the coverage of the meet you attended/reported
    on and there is a caption identifying it as a Zeta, derivative of
    the Gee-Bee.                                          
    
    Adios,	AL

>    o, the Zeta is not the bipe you're looking at.  I can't quote 
>    you a page number but the Zeta is a low-wing, in-line engined bird
>    with greenhouse enclosed canopy in a maroon paint-scheme. The color
>    pic appears (I think) in the coverage of the meet you attended/reported
>    on and there is a caption identifying it as a Zeta, derivative of
>    the Gee-Bee.                                          

Hah! found it - it's a black and white pic on page 66 with the coverage of
the Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, Scale Qualifier.  Looks like it would be a
great sport plane - I question the wisdom of attaching the top wing struts
to the canopy though with a few clever hinges you could have folding wings and
open the canopy at the same time. :-)

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    I took a trip to thre local aviation library... and found some
    good documentation on the GeeBee airplanes... if anyone would
    like a copy, just send me VAX mail @ ARCANA::JORGENSEN with your
    LOC/MS and I'd be happy to send you a copy.
    
    /Brian

    Gee if anyone can figure out a reason to come to SPO on business
    you could make a quick trip to the Springfield muesum(sp) to see
    the GEE BEE exhibit. You could also see the full sized ZETA hanging
    from the ceiling.
    
    						Tom

re Note 336.23 by SPKALI::THOMAS >

>    Gee if anyone can figure out a reason to come to SPO on business
>    you could make a quick trip to the Springfield muesum(sp) to see
>    the GEE BEE exhibit. You could also see the full sized ZETA hanging
>    from the ceiling.
>    
>    						Tom

Please give directions to the museum.  Don't assume I know my way around
Springfield.  Also near by shopping malls and good restaurants so I can 
justify the trip with my wife.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    YES,YES,YES, sounds like a personal problem to me:-)
    
    Directions.  RT 90 west (assuming you coming from the east) to RT
    291. RT291 south, take the taylor st exit. turn left onto Taylor
    st. Travel app 9 blocks until you reach State st. Cross over State
    st. and then take your first left. This is Maple st. This parallels
    Taylor and your now heading back in the dicection you came from.
    Again cross over State st. and enter the first driveway on your
    right. This is the Quadangle, Museum court yard. the GEEBEE exhibit
    is in the science museum.
    One nice restraunt is Springfield in just down from the Museum.
    Exit the driveway and take a right (right turns are the only legal
    turn). Travel down app 9 blocks. On your left will be a Holiday
    Inn. Excellent food at their restraunt on the top floor. Also this
    is adjacent to RT 291. so getting home should be easy.
    
    						Tom