Conference vmszoo::rc

       

>    ....is it difficult to LAND on water?
    
       
       Don't you water on water?

   

    Ken,
    
    I'd highly recommend the molded plastic variety of float, like tose
    sold by Gee-Bee.  They've got a cracker-jack hull/step design which
    works like magic and they're tougher'n a boot!  The first pair of
    floats I ever had were made from foam, sheeted with 1/64" ply and,
    being copied from the Gee-Bee's, they worked fine, but waht a pain!
    
    Any little stick you ran over in the water or pebble you encountered
    taxying onto the bank wreaked havoc with them.  I was constantly
    patching/repairing them.  The plastic GeeBee's are now over 15 yr's
    old and have required NO maintenance whatever, yet they are readily
    repairable, should you ding them.
    
    Is it hard to takeoff/land on water??  No, not particularly but,
    like anything else, different techniques are required and must be
    learned.  The most important thing with floats is getting them setup
    properly; the step should de directly beneath or just slightly to
    the rear of the plane's CG, "with" the floats installed, and the
    planes thrustline should be parallel, or just slightly negative
    (nose-down), to the centerline or deckline of the floats.  If you're
    not setup as described, I can assure you a lot of "fun" (pronounced:
    grief).
    
    The main point of concern, whether taking off, landing or taxying,
    is to keep the float-tips up, for obvious reasons, but this is not
    difficult to do and you'll get an "instant reminder" should you
    forget.  To taxi, simply hold up-elevator and advance the throttle
    `til the plane settles into a tail-low taxi attitude (~ 1/4 - 1/3 
    throttle), at which point you can neutralize the elevator and the
    plane will remain in this "taxi-attitude."  When lined-up for takeoff,
    advance the throttle to full, holding just a little up elevator
    for the first few seconds, then relax the elevator to neutral to
    allow the plane to get on the step.  You'll have no difficulty
    recognizing "on the step" as the plane will suddenly surge out of
    the water and accelerate rapidly with the steps the only portion
    of the floats actually contacting the water.  From here, simply
    wait/watch `til max spped has been attained and gently rotate with
    a touch of up, CAREFUL, too much and you'll come out of the water
    stalled...do everything gently/smoothly.  For landing, setup yer'
    approach as you normally would, flatten the descent and let the
    plane slow up about 1' high.  Then simply hold it off with elevator,
    trying to maintain that 1' altitude `til it pays off and settles
    to the water.  The plane will decelerate rapidly and you'll want
    to hold full up as soon as the plane is firmly on the water.
    
    That's pretty much it, easy wasn't it...and it's an absolute kick
    in the pants; a whole new experience/challenge.  You'll love it.
    
    Adios,	Al  

    How about any advice for snow take-off/landings-  I just might like
    to give it a try!

    Ahh, my second favorite kind of flying (behind WWI birds)....
    
    Solid foam = must sheet with veneer and cover with plastic/paint
    		 before use.  I think they look better and are easier
    		 to maintain.  A hole in a foam core float will not
    		 take on as much water.  You can also get flat bottomed
    		 floats that apparently work very well on the snow..
    
    Molded =	 2 minutes and you are in the air.  Easy mounting, and
    		 in most cases less weight.  A hole will cause more
    		 problems though.
    
    It is a tradeoff.  If you have the time, I would suggest foam core.
    I ran my plane into a rocky shore (a NEW hazzard!) and put a sizable
    dent into one float.  Skin was badly broken.  But it did not keep
    me from flying.
    
    Other considerations...
    
    	1) Waterproof EVERYTHING.  I used balsaright on the inside of
    	   the whole fuse.  Also wrap everything you can in plastic.
    
    	2) Think about how you are going to mount your floats.  On my
    	   GP trainer 40 I added a landing gear block in the forward
    	   compartment.  Thus, to add my floats, I pull the wheels and
    	   use the regular gear for the back brace and I have a second
    	   gear for the front.
    
    	3) Don't bother with water rudders. They aren't really needed.
    
    	4) Increase your vert. stab area.  If the floats have a high
    	   enough profile, they become the vert stab.  Thus you lose
    	   the stability of having the stab all the way out there on
    	   the tail.  Any aerodynamics people want to explaing this
    	   one???
    
    If you are comfortable with a taildragger (one without a steerable
    tail wheel), then flying off of water is easy.  It actually looks
    much more realistic than flying a model off of land.  As you accelerate
    the plane gets onto the "step" and you skim accros the water until
    you pull up.
    
    Landing is really different.  You land on the "step" and you seem
    to be going pretty fast.  One mistake and you had better hurry out
    before the plane sinks.  I guess it is not that much "harder" there
    is just more pressure to keep it on its floats.
    
    I wish I had a place around here where I could fly off water
    regularly...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Re: -.3,
    
    I know this'll come as a shock, but I know "nothing" of flying from
    snow..."snow?"  But, it just happens that Tom Tenerowicz was telling
    about snow flying in a phone conversation just this week so he should
    have some input/answers to this one.
    
    Re: -.4,
    
    If you'd had the plastic Gee-Bee floats, you might not have had
    "any" float damage when you ran onto shore.  Those things are REALLY
    tough!  I've seen them survive crashes, even on shore, where the
    plane was totalled but the floats came through with no damage. 
    I don't know what type of plastic they're made of but it's teflon-
    like in feel and resilience and is "extremely' resistant to damage
    or puncture.  I can only speak to the Gee-Bee brand but I recommend
    them without reservation.
    
    Re: -.0,
    
    I forgot to mention that Gee-Bee floats come with some rudimentary
    dural aluminum gear-mounts and spreader-bars which can be made to
    work just fine, though we always used a pair of stock Ugly-Stik
    landing gear with a length of 10-24 all-thread rod running through
    airfoiled aluminum tubing for the spreaders.  The floats were simply
    attached to the all-thread with 10-24 washers/lockwashers/nuts,
    not unlike mounting a pair of wheels.  One more important note about
    float setup:  the floats must be as rigidly mounted as possible.
    If they start "dancing" around due to too flexible an installation,
    it becomes very difficult, if not impossible, to ever break the
    water's surface adhesion and get up on the step...no step, no takeoff.
    
    Adios,	Al

Snow:
	I spent a lot of spectator time last winter watching folks
flying off of snow.  Since I had several planes about to go under
construction (Christmas presents) I ordered floats and skis.
My observations were that skis were easier to install cause
they just take the place of wheels plus you have to file a flat
spot on the axle, but floats gave the best takeoffs and landings
on snow.  The first problem with skis is all the holes in the
snow from foot prints from flyers retrieving their planes
from the runway.  Speaking of runways.  That is the nice thing
about show - the whole field becomes a runway - just take off
into the wind.

Anyway skis hinge and are spring loaded so they tend to drop
into the footprints but the parallel floats stay rigid and go
right over the tops of the steps.  At faster speeds the skis
can hop over this stuff - landing but not taxiing and not the
slow start of a take off.  

Soooooooo
I put skis on my Sureflight Cessna 182 and floats on my Black Baron
Special.  

The Cessna couldn't get off the snow.  Since it was a new plane and since
I have never hand launched before I tried and tried and tried.  Finally
I gave up and Kevin threw it and I flew it.  This worked fine so after
a couple of more times I threw it and he flew it.  Thus I learned both halves
of the hand launch.  So after a couple of those I threw it and flew it both.
Soooooooo the Cessna never took off from skis but landings were pretty normal
and uneventful except that I could never taxi it back to the pits - it
would always fall into one of the foot print holes in the snow.

The only interesting landing was in the spring I showed up at the field to 
fly and all the snow had melted (it was there a day before) but there
was these large shallow water puddles from the melted snow.  Sooooo
I was hand launching and landing on the water puddles (they were maybe
a hundred feet long).  I gotta say that the best landing I have ever
had (it's easy to remember cause I have so few) was on water with
the skis.  Just greased it in and the skis looked like a ducks feet
for 30 feet or so and after the plane stopped it sunk about 1 inch
in the puddle.

I didn't finish the Black Baron Special until just after the snow melted so
I took the floats back off and flew it this summer.  It has crashed hard
in the 495th corn field twice (before any corn was up).  Once I was doing
snap roll induced spins and I didn't have enough up elevator adjusted in.
After I straightened it out and gave it full up I knew I was in trouble.
Full throttle all up and it made a nice graceful arch and hit the corn
field at approximately a 10 degree down angle.  The wing split in two
pieces and busted it's way thru the fuse which ended up being buried.
The mid and aft sections were undamaged.  

I fixed it in a couple of weeks but I guess I didn't do a good enough job
of fixing the broken former that holds the front of the wing.

I flew it all one day with no problems then a week later on a very
windy day I took it up and was only up long enough to climb out when POW.
The wing flew off.  I throttled back and pulled up on elevator and the
fuse managed to hit the corn field in almost exactly the same spot
as before.  Again at about 10 degrees down, right side up, and although
I was throttled back without the wing it was really cooking.  This time
I really did in the fuse and I even had an angle worm on the engine
when I pulled it out of the dirt.  I added plywood to both sides of the
cowl and lots of epoxy and flew it again.  It is getting heavy.  A few
weeks ago I retired it for the summer and put the floats back on for
snow flying and bought an OS .60 FS to replace the Saito .45.

I figured it ways too much to get up off the snow with only the Saito
which I had to steal anyway to put that in my Das Bipe Stick.

Well I've been rambling too much.
My original point was Floats are great for snow and
Skis can land in water.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Can't resist jumping in here with my own story about this
summer's adventures on floats.

I've only been in the hobby a couple years, and have been flying my Sig
Kavalier since this spring. I had been thinking about putting floats
on it because my folks have a cottage in New Hampshire on Lake
Winnepesaukee (supposedly, the largest fresh water lake that is
totally with the borders of one state - looks like a lobster on your
maps). Anyway, I knew I'd be spending a couple weeks up there this
summer. Last year I met Jeff Friedrichs and we flew off the field at
the high school, but I really wanted to try flying off the water, even
though a couple summers ago I saw a guy two cottages down the line
who had tried a float plane and he never got it off the water (he's a
commercial airline pilot, so that may explain it).  I decided to put
the floats on my Kavalier. It had survived a mid-air earlier this
year so I figured it was a blessed plane anyway, a good one for
experimenting on the water.

So, I went down to our local hobby shop, where the proprietor (named
Ray, but some of us have more descriptive names for him) sold me a set
of BJ foam float cores, and gave me some good advice on how to install
them. I covered them with 1/16 sheet balsa and red & white Ultracote to
match the colors on my Kavalier. I mounted them using the existing
landing gear setup without any modifications to the plane. The
main gear bolts right onto some plywood brackets I glued right into the
floats, and I bent up some 5/32 wire into a triangular mount for the
front of the floats, and stuck it right into the nose wheel mounting
bracket. Later on I added a water rudder to see how it would work (works
some, but not worth it I decided) and rigged up the nose wheel steering
mechanism to steer the water rudder, again without any modification to
the plane. 

Well, I had heard all kinds of stories about how difficult it was to
actually fly off of water, besides seeing the neighbor's failure, so I
was a little apprehensive about it. After mounting the floats I put it
into the water and taxied around. I had to adjust the toe-in/out of
the floats some (easy to do with my 5/32 wire set up, just move the
wheel collars around) to get it to taxi straight. Then came the acid
test. I pointed it into the wind and gunned it. The plane quickly came
up on step, and I pulled up elevator a little and it came right out of
the water like a champ. That OS .45FSR may have helped things out,
I had been told that it was advisable to have extra power for float 
flying.

So, I was flying! And so was my airplane! The neighbor happened to be
watching me from his dock and I heard a round of applause from that
direction. The plane acted a little sluggish when I tried a few stunts
- not nearly as smooth as without the floats (of course, I'm not all
that smooth without floats anyway). 

Now, I had to land (water?) the sucker. Of course, I had been having nightmares
for the few previous nites, envisioning my plane hitting nose first and
heading for the bottom, but I was committed so I gave it a shot. I had a
large area to work in, unlike the postage stamp field I'm used to flying
off of, so it was luxurious to just let it glide down to the water in
its own sweet time. I flared it just before it hit and it was glorious!
Taxied it back to the dock, and lifted it out of the water. Never had to 
go after it in the boat in all the flights I made that week.

A couple days later another neighbor stopped by in his boat after I'd
had a flight. Turns out he has flown full-scale float planes, and had
also tried his hand unsuccessfully with R/C float flying (didn't have an
instructor and gave up - heard that one before?). He had been watching
me with his high-power binoculars. He said that the day before he had
been coming up the lake in his boat and saw my plane from a distance. At
first he thought it was a full-scale plane, and he saw me do a stunt
turn (I think it's called a split-S, anyway, it's a half roll, then half
loop out). When he saw the plane headed straight for the water he was
sure it was going in. Then he saw it pull up and realized it was a
model! Guess that helps keep the old adrenaline flowing. 

One more anecdote and I'm done. The state of New Hampshire is working
hard to increase the population of loons. They are a protected species,
and have several nesting areas on the lake that are restricted. We
frequently have loons swimming around in front of the cottage. If you've
never seen/heard a loon, it's like a big black and white duck, with a
ring around the neck, and has a crazy warbling call from which we get
the word loony. Anyway, when I was flying one day a loon was out front
watching the show. He didn't think much of my plane, and was making his
feelings known by making lots of noise. After one flight I landed it
pretty far out, actually not too far from where the loon was sitting.
He dove under, and I started getting worried he was going to nail
my plane (loons dive and can swim extended distances underwater).
Nobody's mentioned it yet, but you can't taxi at half-speed on the
water, it splashes lots of water up into the prop and sprays all over. I
headed away as fast as I could, but fortunately he had decided to
retreat, not attack, and came up further away. Would have been a good
story though - "Airplane Sunk by Loon". 

Dave

    
    	As far as float preference goes I like the molded plastic ones.
    KISS and light.  I have a neat design for a water rudder for tail
    draggers that requires the removal of only the wheel on a taildragger.
    Anyone interested send me mail and I'll send you a diagram.
    
    	Per Al water set up of floats should be done so that the step
    is at on just behind the CG. For snow this is not the case.
    
    	For snow you want to set up the floats so that the step is at
    the leading edge of the wing. This will force the weight of the
    plane on the rear half of the floats and keep the tip up. Rotation
    is no problem with a little speed. Makes the plane act as a
    taildragger.   However the plane tracks better in the snow. After
    one winter in the snow I now prefer skiis, but would suggest that
    a beginner in snow use floats. They are easier. Once you get the
    hang of things then transition to skiis if you wish.  I also have
    what I consider is one of the best skiis designs I've seen. If
    you want a copy send me mail. As to installation of skiis there
    are two proven methods. One for trike gear and one for taildraggers.
    	To show that anything can be flown off of skiis I plan to fly
    my .51 sized pattern bird all winter off of skiis. It's normally
    a trike geared ship. Set up in the snow it will act like a taildragger.
    
    	ONE LAST THINK. DON'T PUT YOUR PLANES AWAY THIS WINTER. FLY.
    IT'S A BALL AND WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER FLYER. YOU WILL FIND THAT
    IF YOU SCHEDULE YOUR FLYING FOR FROM NOON TO THREE THE CONDITIONS
    WON'T BE SO BAD.
    
    
    						TOM

    I guess I'm still confused!  What is the "step" you guys talk about?
    
    
    Ken  (whom yesterday had a great day of flying two different planes)
    

    Ken the step is a difference in height between the bottom front
    and the bottom rear of the float.
    
    ie,
    
    		----------------------------------------------------
    		\                                                  |
    		 \                        |------------------------
    		  \_______________________|
    
    
    
    			Got the picture??
    
    						Tom

    Thanks Tom, I get the picture.  
    
    Do the proper set up instuctions come with the floats?  You were
    mentioning earlier about moving them forward or backward of CG
    depending on whether you were flying on water or snow.  I'd hate
    to nose dive (catch a tip) on take off.
    
    

>    Do the proper set up instuctions come with the floats?  You were
>    mentioning earlier about moving them forward or backward of CG
>    depending on whether you were flying on water or snow.  I'd hate
>    to nose dive (catch a tip) on take off.
 
The directions supplied are for water only and they are just what Tom
said.  The Float manufactures don't seem to realize that floats
are good for snow.  Also the preferred float for snow wouldn't have
a step.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    I'm a novice to floats, but I think I understand the design of the
    floats because it relates to boat hulls. To take off from land or
    water, airplanes need to "rotate" the nose up/tail down to change
    their angle of incidence to take off. Some planes are built with
    a positive angle, but they would tend to take off just as they reached
    flying speed, and it's better to keep them on the ground/water until
    they have a little more speed before taking off. On the ground,
    the plane can rotate around the main landing gear, but on water
    you have a large hull that's in the water and would prevent rotation.
    
    The "step" is the solution to this problem. When sitting in the water
    or moving at low speed, the entire float provides flotation for
    the plane and acts like a "displacement hull". On the takeoff run, 
    the float begins to "plane" (meaning hydroplane, not airplane), 
    and the front part of the float becomes the planing hull. 
    The rear of the float isn't needed for flotation anymore because 
    you're planing on the front part. The placement of the step with 
    relation to the c.g. is important because the rotation
    of the plane most naturally occurs at the c.g. If the step is ahead
    of the c.g., the plane will automatically rotate when you reach
    the float's planing speed, which is slower than the takeoff speed,
    leading to an unstable situation. Keeping the step at or just 
    behind the c.g. will keep the nose down until you pull it up 
    with a little up elevator for takeoff.
    
    Well, guys, is that a reasonable explanation, or am I "all wet?"
    
    Dave

It occurs to me that a little further explanation of the "whys" of the correct 
float setup might be in order.  Re: _.13, Dave has reasoned correctly why/how
the float works and why the "step" is necessary.  Without a step [or with the 
floats incorrectly mounted] you'll find a water takeoff something akin to trying
to takeoff from a sea of glue!

As Dave mentions in _.13, when the plane is "on the step" or "planing," the step
is essentially the only thing actually contacting the water.  The step needs
to be [at least] under the CG so that the plane can rotate around this fulcrum
when up elevator is applied for takeoff.  The reason for locating the step "just
slightly" aft of the CG is to keep the plane "stuck" to the water *UNTIL* up
elevator is applied.  This prevents premature lift-off, stall, snap, SPLAAAASH!
Not much aft displacement of the step is required [or desireable]...about 1/4-
1/2" [max] behind the CG should work fine.  Too far aft and the elevator won't 
have the beans to raise the nose...too far forward will make it difficult to get
on the step and/or cause premature rotation with insuffucuent airspeed.

Regarding fuse-to-float alignment, the fuse longitudinal centerline must be [at
least] parallel [or just slightly nose-down] with respect to the floats' longi-
tudinal centerline or deckline.  I know the "nose-down" attitude sounds odd but
here's the why of it: if the nose were "up."  application of power would pull 
the nose [and the float tips] down which is verrry undesireable.  Also, consider
that if the nose were up respective with the floats, you'd have to raise the 
nose just that much "higher" when flaring for landing [to keep the float tips 
up], thereby increasing the risk of a stall.  By rigging the nose just 2-3 de-
grees nose-down respective to the floats' centerline/deckline, you now don't 
have to raise the nose as much as the float tips are "already up" 2-3 degrees 
when the plane is in level flight.  Hence, you can make, essentially, a no-flare
landing with minimum risk of digging the float tips in [with predictable re-
sults].

While we're at it, let's talk about water-proofing.  I never did anything exotic
in this department.  As common practice, I'd already sealed receiver and battery
pack in a plastic bag [which is highly recommended] but did nothing to water-
proof the servos...how would you do that anyhow?  I sealed all pushrod exits in 
the fuse as well as possible by applying a little grease to the wire pushrods,
then filling the exit cutouts with RTV silicone rubber. After the RTV had cured,
the rods could be freed easily due to the coating of grease and the exits were 
sealed against all but the most persistant moisture.  Just a note here, if yer' 
building a new model that you even "might" someday put on the water, water-proof
the entire interior structure with a coat of Balsa-Rite by Coverite...this will
prevent warpage and/or twisting of the airframe due to moisture and is all but
weightless.

For the wing saddle, I covered the wing center-section with a layer of Saran-
Wrap. applied a liberal bead of RTV all around the saddle and bolted the wing 
in place.  NOTE:  Don't get over-anxious to pull the wing...LEAVE IT ALONE for
at least 48-hr.'s or you'll make one helluva mess!  Once the RTV has cured,
remove the wing and, using a *WET*, new single edged razor blade, trim off the 
excess RTV.  This provides an oil-proof/water-proof wing-to-fuse seal and I use 
this procedure on all my birds, regardless of whether they'll ever be flown from
the water.  During the first few water flights, pull the wing occasionally and 
check for leakage...seal these as necessary but realize a "little" dampness is 
almost inevitable; you may never get it 100% sealed.  The important thing is not
to have water leaking directly on the servos or puddling up around servo connec-
tors, etc.

Also, realize that if you should flip the plane in the water, it's GOING to get 
wet!  In this event, pull the wing and inspect for water.  If you find the Rx
has gotten wet, simply remove it from the plane, remove the case/cover, lay it 
out on a rock or some other surface which radiates warmth from the sun and let 
it dry out for an hour or so.  This is usually suffucient to dry things out and,
provided yer' not flying from salt water, no damage will occur and no further 
cleanup will be required.  If you can't get it adequately dried out on site, 
take it home and carefully dry it out with a hair dryer...*DON'T* put it in the
oven or use a commercial-type heat gun unless you don't mind springing for the
bucks to buy a new receiver!  The same procedure [and caution] applies to servos
and battery packs.

Enough for now. [I've got myself almost hyped enough to put other projects on 
the back burner and get another Ugly-Stik going on floats!]  We flew from the 
water "rabidly" for over 5-years [though we haven't been that active of late]
so feel free to ask if you have further questions...I'm sure I can handle most 
of `em and, if not, I'll certainly try to find the answer for ya's.

Adios amigos,	Al  (WATER FLYERS DO IT ALL WET!)

    Thanks Al for the input.  
    
    As a matter of fact, I just finished putting on my new floats this
    weekend and yesterday made my first attempt on the water.  Man what
    a difference!  Just in idle mode she wants to move right out!
    
    Anyways, I never did get it off the water.  For some reason I was
    having problems steering.... couldn't keep'er straight!   When I
    finally got clear of the surrounding docks, I went to full throttle
    and watched it bounce, start to lift off the surface, the left wing
    dipped, it came back down flat and caught the float at such an angle
    that it would nose over.  Twice I had to fish it out with the engine
    6" under.  I felt I was using the proper elevator control...full at
    first then start letting up.  It was hard to tell if it was up on
    step, because it was about 40 yards out....I was flying away from
    me.  Just a note.....the wind was hitting the plane from the right
    wing to the left, thats right, broadside!  Maybe that was one critical
    factor to the left wing dip!  
    
    Anyways, it was quite a different approach to flying....I love it!
    
    What do you think of attaching a water rudder......now listen
    carefully, directly to the nose wheel attachment?  Thats right,
    remove the wheel from the axle and attach a rudder!  I keep getting
    the feeling that this might cause the nose to dig, but I only intend
    to use it a low speeds (this is where I seem to have problems
    steering).
    
    Ken "CRASH" now becomes.......
    
    Ken "SPLASH"

>    ........ Just a note.....the wind was hitting the plane from the right
>    wing to the left, thats right, broadside!  Maybe that was one critical
>    factor to the left wing dip!  

* Ken,  One of the real beauties of water-flying is that you can takeoff in any
direction as may be necessitated by the wind.  By all means, use this "plus" to 
maximum advantage and "always" takeoff and land "into" the wind.  This may well
resolve many [maybe all] of the problems you experienced.  Double-check yer' 
installation for step location and parallelism against the parameters outlined 
in _.14 and assure that the installation is as rigid as you can make it...other-
wise, the floats tend to "dance," making it difficult [if not impossible] to get
on the step.
    
>    What do you think of attaching a water rudder......now listen
>    carefully, directly to the nose wheel attachment?  Thats right,
>    remove the wheel from the axle and attach a rudder!  I keep getting
>    the feeling that this might cause the nose to dig,........

* I think yer' "feeling" is correct...activating a rudder located that far for-
ward of the C/G would cause "drag" ahead of the C/G, pulling the nose down and
[perhaps] digging in the float-tips.  You may "intend" to only use rudder at low
speeds but don't forget you may need the rudder at other times, at higher speeds
when the forward-located rudder just might make the plane try to emulate a sub-
marine!!  Besides, I'm not so sure that some adverse airborne behavior might not
be induced by such a setup.

I, personally, prefer to use water rudders simply for the extra convenience of
being able to control steering at low speeds, even in the wind, though many wa-
ter-fliers feel they're unnecessary.    With no water rudders, the only method 
that works for steering at low speeds is to use short bursts of full throttle 
against full left or right rudder but this process can be all but totally thwar-
ted by even a light wind.

A simple, effective water rudder is easily constructed by soldering a length of
suitable-sized music-wire to a brass rudder in the configuration of a flag. 
Mount this assembly to the stern of only one float [it doesn't matter which one]
after the fashion of a tailwheel.  (Tom Tenerowicz described a good method else-
where in the conference last week.)  The easiest way to connect the steering
linkage is to simply run a piece of wire directly from the "air" rudder control 
horn forward to the water-rudder tiller arm, using Du-Bro/Goldberg ball-sockets
to make the connection at each end.  A cleaner appearing method is to use throt-
tle cable within its nylon tubing to run the linkage forward to connect to the 
nosewheel axle via a piece of brass tubing slipped over the axle and secured by 
a wheel-collar soldered to the brass tube.  The cable is simply soldered at 90-
degrees into one end of the brass tubing.  Simple standoffs will have to be fab-
ricated to support the cable/tubing every few inches as it angles toward the 
nosewheel strut.  Try it, I think you'll like it!

>    Anyways, it was quite a different approach to flying....I love it!

* Let us know how much "more" you love it once you've got it all worked out and
have successfully flown from and landed on water.

Adios, and good luck,	Al

    A water rudder in the nose would be like an air rudder in the nose:
    UNSTABLE in yaw.  The plane would want to reverse ends on you if
    the rudder was effective at all.  The rudder should be behind the
    point that the plane would rotate around in a turn to insure
    stability.
    
    Charlie
    

    I figured as much, I just wanted to hear it from someone else! 
    I'll try the normal set up, and see if I can control the beast
    in the water.  Who knows, maybe it will even get out of the water
    this time!
    
    Thanks guys.
    
    Ken

    I tried a water rudder on mine and found it marginally helpful.
    With any kind of breeze at all, the plane wanted to weather-vane
    right into the wind, even with full water rudder. I could have
    put on a bigger rudder, but then I've got more drag. I had no
    real problem with using the air rudder to steer - short bursts
    of throttle provide prop wash to push the tail around. It was the
    only way I could steer out of the wind.
    
    You might check the floats for alignment. They should slightly toe-in,
    just like your car's front end alignment. This provides stability,
    with both floats pushing a little toward the center. Toe-out will
    be unstable. When you're on step, the water rudder is mostly out
    of the water anyway, and you should have enough airspeed for the
    air rudder to work, so if you're having problems at high speed in
    the water I'd bet it's float alignment.
    
    Dave

    p.s. - reply to .15
    
    You can tell if you're on step because the nose comes down.
    As you accelerate, the water will push the nose high and tail
    down.  As you come up on the step, the nose will drop back down
    (because your step is slightly behind the c.g.).
    
    Dave

I only ever tried a float plane once and drowned the engine with spray. I
assumed it was because the prop was too close to the water (about 2"). 

What can be considered the minimum clearance or is it very dependent on the
model. 

John.

    re. 19
    
    Dave, I think you might have hit it on the nose!  Eye-balling the
    top seemed to show one float slightly angled outward...but not very
    much.
    
    Even with quick bursts of throttle the plane would start to turn
    in the right direction, but then continued in the same direction!
    It's response time to the counter-steering was very slow.  And in
    slow speed, it would just zig-zag, no matter which way I was turning!
    
    I'll try to toe-in the floats and see what that does.  Maybe some
    night this week I can get back down to the lake and try it again.
    
    Just out of curiosity, when the plane is sitting on a flat surface,
    is it supposed to lean forward or sit on the back of the floats.
    Mine will do both.  Does this mean that I have my step directly
    at CG?  Is this good or bad?
    
    Ken "SPLASH"

    Re: _.21..., John,
    
    I don't think I've ever seen any commentary on optimum/minimum prop-
    to-water clearance.  Logic, of course, suggests the higher the better
    but some spray into the prop is inevitable.  For that reason, wood
    props are unsuitable for water work as the spray eats the wooden
    prop blades as though it (the spray) consisted of broken glass.
    I've seen wood props rendered useless in one flight and, in cases
    where a guy was having trouble taking off, I've seen the thrust
    diminish to the point where he could barely taxi back due to the
    prop wear.
    
    We used to use nylon props exclusively but today's glass filled
    composite props would be far superior and safer.  Incidentally,
    if spray is a constant problem, splash-rails can be mounted to the
    floats to direct the spray out and away from the prop arc.
    
    Re: _.22..., Ken,
    
    Sounds like yer' step is directly under the C/G which is fine, provided
    the bird doesn't pop outa' the water prematurely.  If such is the
    case, move the step aft just a tad to keep the bird "stuck" while
    on the step until "you" rotate with a touch of up elevator.  Also,
    see the reply [above] regarding use of composite props on water...
    wood props don't hack it on the water.
    
    Adios amigos,	Al

    Ken [and all you other "Water Bugs" out there],
    
    Model Airplane News has an excellent monthly column ("Floating
    Around") all about water flying.  This months column, coinciden-
    tally, [are you listening, Ken?] has some "good" info about water
    rudders, i.e. rudder sizes [area] for various size ships, and some
    discussion around how to taxi, given various wind conditions...good
    stuff!                                               
    
    I found it interesting that the matrix on rudder areas calls for
    3.25 sq." for the average .60 size bird.  I must've simply "fell
    into it" on this one as the combined area of my twin water rudders
    is about 3.5 sq.".  I'd never given it a whole lot of thought, but
    this might account for why some guys've had little success with
    water rudders...they may simply be using too small a rudder.  My
    Ugly-Stik on Gee-Bee floats with twin water-rudders was never a
    problem taxying in virtually any wind condition.
    
    I highly recommend the "Floating Around" column as required reading
    for all modelers interested in water flying.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Yo..... Big Al........ I got ma ears on!!!
    
    I'll check out the mag and see what it says about them ther' water
    rudders!
    
    And remember, ' when fly'n on water, keep the float side down and
    the wing side up! '
    
    Ken   'Who would rather SPLASH'em than CRASH'em!'

    RE -.??
    
    Someone mentioned that at slow speeds the plane zig-zaged around..
    I presume that this is without a water rudder.(?)
    
    I think that you missed a key statement in one of Dave's replied.
    You need to give it a shot of throttle to get some air moving over
    the rudder.  At slow (ie taxiing speeds) there is not enough airflow
    to make the rudder work.
    
    Flying off of water made flying a tail dragger (no tail wheel) a
    breeze.  It taught me how to combine rudder and throttle to steer.
    A must for a WWI buff like me..
    
    As a result of this, I don't bother with water rudders.  They just
    get in the way.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff, it was I who mentioned the zig-zag problem.  I did try the
    throttle trick but it wouldn't respond quick enough.  I still think
    I had a mixture of problems ie. wind, floats not aligned properly,
    and inexperience.  I'll let everyone know what happens this week-
    end when I attempt it again (with my new found knowledge).
    
    Ken

    One more quick question....
    
    Once the plane is airborne, will the floats cause it to fly
    differently?  In other words, will the floats act as a wing
    and give me extra lift, or just sit there and not bother me.
    
    Also, how do they act while doing stunts?
    
    
    Ken
    
    PS.  Just so everyone is aware....I'm flying an Eaglet 53 with
         a OS. MAX 25 on 28" GEE BEE floats.

    Ken,
    
    If they're properly installed, you won't notice any real difference,
    save for the fact the plane will be a little slower and have reduced
    vertical performance due to the increased weight/drag of the floats.  
    If anything, the plane will tend to be a little more stable owing
    to the additional mass hanging beneath the C/G.
    
    In rolls, you may notice the first half of the roll is a little
    slower [roll rate-wise] and the second half a little faster due
    to the "pendulum-effect" produced by the floats.  In general, the
    plane will be capable of anything it was able to do before, within
    the increased power-loading resulting from the additional weight/
    drag of the floats.  Just be careful/conservative with it `til you've
    had the chance to get comfortable with it and familiar with its
    capabilities.
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    	Al's right ,however I've always noticed an increase in lift
    when floats or ski's were installed. My buddy used to fly a 
    "Next Step" a low wing trainer design and couldn't get the thing
    to do an outside snap until he put ski's or floats on. With them
    installed it would snap as well outside as it normally did inside.
    
    
    						Tom

    Ken,
    
    I've been anxiously awaiting a report on yer' experience with the
    water flying over the past weekend.  Wha' hoppen'?  Didja' make
    it or what??????
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    	Ken told me that he......
    
    
    
    
    			DIDN'T HAVE TIME!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    	Can you believe it?   How rude!, set us up and leave us danglin!
    
    
    	Brian (Ken's co-worker)
    

    BRIAN.....Co-worker?  
    
       I'm the tech, he's the Co-tech!!!!!!!
    
    Sorry Al, but I "DIDN'T" have time.  Maybe next week.
    
    Ken

    Well it's a week later, and I still haven't had time to get down
    to the lake.  My brother informed me that the water was like glass.
    Made me feel real good about not being able to get down there.
    
    Any how, I managed to toe-in the floats, about 1/2 inch on each
    one.  Is that too much?
    
    I also managed to get the fuse angled down while the center line
    of the floats remain level.  The only problem with that is how far
    should the angle be?  It looks like I dropped the nose down about
    1 to 1-1/2 inches.  That seems to be to much..... A little help
    please!
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    WHOA!  Hold `er Newt!  Sounds like you've severly stubbed yer' toe
    [pun intended] on both counts.  I can predict LOTSA' problems if
    you attempt flight with yer' present setup.
    
    The toe-in and nose down attitudes were referring to here should
    be verrrry subtle and barely visible to the eye [if at all].  We're
    only talking a coupla' degrees here [for both measurements]...a
    max of 1/8-to-3/16" total toe-in, i.e. 1/16-to-3/32" per float is
    plenty and 1/8-to-3/16" would also be plenty for nose-down displacement
    relative to float deck/centerline.  Actually, for a smaller bird, 1/16"
    would likely be more than enough for both parameters.
    
    Please go back to the bench and redo the setup/alignment "before"
    attempting a flight.
    
    Adios,	Al

    ROGER YOUR LAST.....WILL RETURN TO BASE.....KEN-SPLASH OUT!
    

    I'm wondering if there is a "rule of thumb" for determining the
    "right" size floats??  Some one once told me 75% of the length of
    the plane from nose to the rudder hinge line.
    
    Does this sound right??
    
    /Brian

    Brian,
    
           I bought mine according to the suggestion in the Tower Hobbies
    catalog.  They recommended 28" floats for (I believe) .40 or less and
    the 33" for .40 and larger.  Apparently this takes the guess work out
    for us.  Mine work okay, and I would say the length is about 75% of
    the planes total length.
    
    Ken

    weight is the important factor, power/length is secondary.  a few months
    ago (or maybe almost 6 months) RCM had an article on designing and
    building floats.   It covered just about every question I had about
    them, including such things as how to set up the plane on the floats
    so it rises onto step properly. I'll see if I can find the issue(s)
    with the articles and I'll put the dates here.
                                          

    Well, once again I took to the water.  This time I went out in a
    boat (used for search and rescue).  The Eaglet fired up nicely
    so I figured I was off to a good start.  The wind was blowing at
    about 10-15 knots and the water was choppy.
    
    I sat the plane in the water and gave it a little gas.  She started
    moving out into the wind so I gunned it.....held full up elevator
    until it came up on the steps (which I couldn't really tell due to
    the choppiness of the water)...eased up on the elevator to get in-
    creased speed, gave more elevator and it started to come off the
    water...as soon as it did it veered to the left and landed on its
    nose.  "MAN THE RESCUE BOATS!"
    
    To make a long story short, I only managed to get the plane out
    of the water (at least 10') only once.  Again it veered left and
    right and DOWN!  No damage, just frustration.  Any other helpful
    hints.  So far its water 2, pilot 0!
    
    PS.  On the last try, I think I was holding full elevator after
         lifting off the water, so I think I was causing a stall...
         still doesn't explain why it always veers off to one side.
    
                  \
    Ken         --/--
           ^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^
         -------/--------
               /
    
    

    Ken,
    
    When you suck it out of the water with full-up elevator, yer' just
    begging for a stall/snap/dunk!  Normally, the stall will always
    break in the direction of torque, or to the left...you try to correct
    with hard right aileron but all you get (if anything) is a snap to the 
    right.  There's yer' left, right, dunk!
    
    Whenever possible, try to takeoff parallel to yer'self rather that
    straight away...as you've already discovered, it's difficult to
    see whether the plane's on the step that way.  Takeoff _directly_
    into the wind and wait 'til maximum speed has been achieved after
    getting on the step before _gently_ applying back-pressure (up)
    on the elevator to rotate.  Once airborne, _immediately_ relax the
    back-pressure and make a shallow climbout, being _gentle_ on the
    controls 'til max airspeed is attained.  
    
    If none of this seems to help, it's just possible you need more
    power to get _safely_ unstuck from the water.  

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Thanks Al, you may have a point about stall and snap!  The only
    reason I hit hard on the elevator was the choppiness of the water
    was making the plane look like it was going to catch a float and
    flip.  Its still ready to go, maybe tomorrow if the winds lighten
    up.
    
    Soon to achieve altitude from torrents of water.....
                   ---+---      
                      |
    =================-X--================
                     / \                        Ken
                    () () 
        ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
             ^^^^^  ^^^^  ^^^^^
    

>< Note 328.41 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
...
>    begging for a stall/snap/dunk!  Normally, the stall will always
>    break in the direction of torque, or to the left...you try to correct
>    with hard right aileron but all you get (if anything) is a snap to the 
>    right.  There's yer' left, right, dunk!

Actually (re-think this Al and correct me if I'm wrong) when you try
to correct with hard right aileron you will cause a snap to the LEFT.

This is because at or near stall speeds ailerons become ineffective
and in some ships actually start working backwards.  This is caused
by the fact that at low speeds the effect of the drag caused by
aileron action is greater than the movement it can cause on the wing.
This makes adverse yawl take over and the DOWN aileron has more drag
than the UP aileron so if you give right aileron the left aileron
will have the increased drag and cause the left wing to slow down and
stall - POW.

Theory is easy - it takes real concentration to react correctly when
the situation arises.  The only safe thing that you can train yourself
for here it to fall into using rudder near stall speed.

P.S.  If you had aileron/rudder coupling turned on it would have helped.
      BUT - I finally go along with Al and I am going to put a collar
      over my Aileron/Rudder coupling switch.  Now if I can just find
      a 7/32" wheel collar!

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Re: .-1, Kay,
    
    Well, lemme' rethink the mechanics of the stall snap syndrome; I
    know that it's virtually S.O.P. that when a stall occurs, you'll almost 
    always see one wing drop (usually, but not always, the left) followed
    by a snap in the opposite direction.
    
    OK, were stalled and let's say the stall breaks left, dropping the
    left wing; this causes the right wing to accelerate, regaining lift
    which, uncorrected, would snap the plane onto its back.  As you've
    said, the proper correction is right _rudder_ (coulped with application
    of down-elevator and power).  But, let's suppose the pilot does the in-
    stinctive (wrong) thing and hangs onto the up-elevator while applying 
    right aileron; as you've correctly stated, the down (left) aileron _does_ 
    produce more drag than lift BUT REMEMBER, it's stalled while the right 
    wing is flying now, meaning it's aileron is more effective than the 
    stalled one.  So, the right wing drops, but at the same time, falls below 
    stall speed and quits flying while the left wing accelerates.  Now, the 
    left wing flies, the down-aileron bites and snaps the plane to the right.
    
    If you're close to the ground, that's a wrap!  You stalled, began
    to snap left but tried to correct, inducing a snap to the right
    and a subsequent dive into the turf.  I've seen cases where this
    condition developed at high enough an altitude that the aircraft
    alternated snaps, left-right-left-right-left-right all the way to
    the ground 'cause the pilot _never_ let go of the up-elevator which
    simply locked the plane into the stall.
    
    Correct stall/snap recovery is _always_ to get the nose down and
    apply rudder opposite to the low wing, then gently release and pull
    out when flying speed has been regained.  Stay OFF the ailerons 'til
    full control has been regained!

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    Not knowing the aerodynamics of it, I can say from experience that
    hard right aileron in a left hand stall can cause a right hand snap.
    I _have_ heard theories similar to Kay's though.
    
    Al beat me to the punch, I was thinking the same thing reading Ken's
    account - this happens to many of us flying off grass when the grass
    gets too long; you tend to feed in too much up to break free and
    all of a sudden you're airborne without enough airspeed...  heroic
    measures or CRASH!
    
    Bill

    Re: .45, Bill,
    
    Thanx fer' the support...I'm pretty confident of the correctness
    of what I proposed as that's the way it was taught to me when I
    was learning to fly (real ones) way back when.  I distinctly recall
    the ol' Aeronca Champ reacting exactly as I described when I was
    learning/practicing stalls/stall recovery.
    
    Actually, though, what Kay proposes is _also_ correct BUT only when
    on the verge of a stall, NOT after the stall has developed.  That's
    why the worst thing you can do when limping along on the brink of
    a stall is to apply aileron.  But AFTER the stall develops/breaks,
    what I said is valid.
    
    Bottom line, the message is abundantly clear: _stay_off_the_ailerons_
    when approaching a stall or after it breaks, especially at very
    low altitudes...the effect(s) might be different but the result
    is the same: C R U N C H !!
                                              
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Guess what?
    
    
    I didn't use ailerons.......I correctly used my rudder!
    
    
    But!
    
    
    As all of you have correctly mentioned....I hung on to the ol' 
    UP elevator all the way back to the water.  Slap ma knuckles....
    
    
    The only thing that confuses me is that everytime I lift off the
    water, the plane drops its left wing...everytime!  It didn't do
    that on the snow?  I checked the balance of the CG and from the
    prop to the tail and its fine, so why the sudden left wing dip?
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    Check the birds lateral balance with the floats installed.  It doesn't
    need to be perfect; just support the plane with the thumb and
    forefinger of your right hand placed on the approximate centerline
    of the fuse bottom and watch to see if a wing drops.  Weight the
    opposite wingtip 'til the plane approximately balances.
    
    If this appears to already be in the ballpark, I'm gonna' guess
    that yer' coming out of the water at a much reduced speed (compared
    to ground operation) and yer' experiencing a little torque-roll
    effect which, of course, would be to the left.  Try to anticipate
    the wing-dip and apply a little right rudder as you lift off.  I'd
    have said right "aileron" but I suspect yer' coming out of the water
    nearly stalled as it is so use rudder only 'til suitable flying
    speed has been attained.
    
    If the second supposition is correct, ultimately, the best fix for
    yer' problem is going to be more power.  Water flying _does_ require
    a better power-to-weight ratio than does land flying.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Thanks Al for the input.  The balance is fine, I think the main
    problem is that I come out of the water before the plane has enough
    air speed.  I guess I just have to relax and let nature take its
    course.
    
    One other problem I am noticing, is water inside the floats!  There
    is a little hole on the top of the floats, should I seal it up or
    what?
    
                   ---+---      
                      |
    =================-X-================
                     / \                        Ken
          ^^^^      () ()     ^^^^
       ^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
             ^^^^^   ^^^   ^^^^
    

>    One other problem I am noticing, is water inside the floats!  There
>    is a little hole on the top of the floats, should I seal it up or
>    what?


If your floats are anything like mine (GEE BEE 33" plastic), then they 
should have come with two sheet metal screws and instructions to put them in 
the holes.

Cheers\
Brian

    Negative on the sheet metal screws.  The instructions said nothing
    about plugging up the holes.  I'll do it tonight!  Thanks Brian.
    
                   ---+---      
                      |
    =================-X-================
                     / \                         Ken
            ^^^^    () ()   ^^^^
        ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
              ^^^^   ^^^  ^^^^
    

    Ken,
    
    I don't recall my Gee-Bees having holes in them (hafta' check) but
    then I bought 'em over 15-years ago so things may've been changed
    since then.  I remember the old, original Gee-Bees having a hole
    in the top deck which, as mentioned, was plugged with a sheet-metal
    screw.  I always assumed this was to provide a way to drain water
    out of the floats...you certainly don't _want_ water in the floats
    for the extra weight and oscillating CG problems this condition
    causes. By all means plug them thar' holes!   
                                      
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Well, last night was calm and beautiful!  Went down to the lake
    to try my luck at it again.  Got everything in the boat and headed
    out to the open water (away from people and property).  The lake
    was like a mirror.  Remembering all the hints from this conference
    I proceeded to break the water barrier that has so plagued me.  A
    few minor adjustments and she was idling in the water.  I brought
    her around so I could watch her come onto the step as power was
    increased.  
    
    Well for some strange reason, all she did was mortor-boat around.
    Again had a tough time keeping her straight for a take-off run.
    Anyways, I never did get it to come off the water!  I was so damn
    frustrated.
    
    Here is what I noticed;
    	o When it is in the water, only 1/4" of the floats can be seen
    	  above water.  Is this normal or too heavy?
    
    	o When speed is increased, water spray from both floats splashes
    	  directly into the prop (you can here the slapping). The plane
    	  was drenched everytime I brought it back in to check the engine.
    	  Would this decrease the power output?
    
    	o The plane seemed under-powered...didn't look like it came up
    	  on the step at all but kinda rested back on the floats. Should
    	  I move the floats back?  I believe the step is almost at CG.
    
    	o As I mentioned earlier, didn't respond quickly to rudder input
    	  at full throttle, so it was hard to keep straight.
    
    Still glued to water,
    
                   ---+---      
                      |
    =================-X-================
                     / \                         Ken
            ^^^^    () ()   ^^^^
        ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
              ^^^^   ^^^  ^^^^
    

    Ken, Soure sounds like you haven'd enough float for the weight of
    the plane
    
    
    					Tom

>   							......The lake
>    was like a mirror.......  

*  Believe it or not, ken, this is just about the _worst_ condition for
water flying.  The surface adhesion from glassy-smooth water is so intense
it's almost like trying to take off from glue!  Ideal water-flying conditions 
are a slight (5-10mph), steady breeze and a moderate "chop" on the water. 
    
>    Here is what I noticed;
>    	o When it is in the water, only 1/4" of the floats can be seen
>    	  above water.  Is this normal or too heavy?

* As Tom has already suggested, it sounds like you might be a little light in 
the bouyancy department.  Does the weight of the plane _and_ floats fall within 
the float mfgr.'s recommended weight range?
    
>    	o When speed is increased, water spray from both floats splashes
>    	  directly into the prop (you can here the slapping). The plane
>    	  was drenched everytime I brought it back in to check the engine.
>    	  Would this decrease the power output?

* Spray in the prop most definitely reduces power output from the engine, and
drastically so.  You might try attaching spray-rails from the toe of the floats
back to behind the prop-arc.  This could also be the result of the floats being
undersized and displacing too much water.
    
>    	o The plane seemed under-powered...didn't look like it came up
>    	  on the step at all but kinda rested back on the floats. Should
>    	  I move the floats back?  I believe the step is almost at CG.

* The floats _should_ be at or slightly behind the CG.  You could try moving the
step back a little but I'm not convonced it'll change things much.  I believe 
the key to the problem is yer' own statement that "The plane seemed underpower-
ed..."  As I mentioned before, float-flying is not very power-efficient, i.e.
more power is needed than for land operation...I believe, as I said yesterday, 
that the ultimate solution is to replace the engine with a more powerful one.
    
>    	o As I mentioned earlier, didn't respond quickly to rudder input
>    	  at full throttle, so it was hard to keep straight.

* Steering on the water, especially without water-rudders, _is_ very sluggish
until the plane's on the step. If it won't come promptly onto the step, steering
is likely to be unsatisfactory.  Again, more power would correct the situation.

It's been long enough now that I fail to recall yer' setup.  To refresh the 
memory chips, why don't you lay it out again?  Plane, engine, floats, weight, 
etc...

    Ken, a few months ago RCM had a series (two or three articles) about
    float flying.  Although I do not remember the particulars, I do
    remember the things they wanted you to consider when preparing a
    plane for float flying.  Weight of aircraft vs. size of float goes
    without saying, but the articles indicated that CG location relative
    to the floats and angle of the wing with respect to the floats was
    important.  I can't recall, sorry, but they either wanted the plane
    slightly nose down or nose up when sitting on the floats, at rest and
    unpowered.  I think it was slightly nose down, since as the plane
    gains enough speed for the tail feathers to work, a little up elevator
    would help the floats up onto step a little sooner (by forcing the
    tips of the floats out of the water in order the get the airplane
    at a postitive anlge of attack)  Don't take my word for it, though,
    and anyone else who reads this should by all means say if I'm wrong,
    since I don't want to be responsible for a lost plane.  I do
    specifically recall that they author of the article was NOT setting
    his plane centerline absolutely parallel to the float centerline,
    but at some angle.  I think that CG was to be located so that when
    the plane was at rest in the water the waterline on the floats was
    parallel with the top of the float.  I really don't know though,
    I just thought writing this might stimulate some though from those
    who might know better than me.

    re-.55  Here is the info on my set-up;
    
    		Plane ...... Eaglet 50 (50" wing)
    		Weight ..... 2-4 lbs (estimate)
    		Engine ..... OS25
    		Floats ..... GEE BEE 28"
    		
    
    The weight problem might have been caused by the submerging it got
    the day before.  Quite a bit of water did get into the wings, so
    I'm sure the balsa soaked up quite a bit.  Plus I still have some
    (not a lot) water in floats that I haven't removed yet.  I know
    the first time I tried it (last November) the floats were sitting
    high on the water, so maybe the plane is a little water logged.
    
    Also, I remember that on the previous attempt, (real choppy water)
    the plane moved alot faster on the water, even though it was getting
    tossed around quite a bit.
    
    How would I go about making splash rails?
    
    re-.56  You are correct in stating the nose down attitude as to
    the floats being parallel to the water.  I have that set up.  Again,
    the float size is right for the plane according to the manufacturer.
    I think that problem lies with the plane being slightly water-logged.
    I'll see what I can do about drying it out....if it needs it!
    
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                     / \                         Ken
            ^^^^    () ()   ^^^^
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    Everything I remember reading about floats says that if the floats
    are parallel to the water, the plane should be set up for a POSITIVE
    angle of attack (nose up) of about 2 or 3 degrees.
    
    Is my memory water logged or is this correct?
    
    (From one who has _no_ float experience...)
    
    				- Dan Miner

    Re: .-1, Dan,
    
    the fuselage centerline should be anywhere from parallel to just
    slightly negative (-2 to -3 degrees as a rule) to the floats' deckline.
    This is to ensure that, under power, the natural tendancy is for
    the float tips to be pulled up, not down.  If this is difficult
    to visualize, imagine it as kind of a teeter-totter effect; when
    power is applied and the fuse, thereby the stab/elevator, is somewhat
    negative, the propwash across the stab pushes the tail-down/nose-up,
    in turn raising the float tips.  Also, on landing, when the nose
    is raised to flair, the float tips are likewise raised a little
    higher helping to prevent them from digging-in.
    
    Re: .-2, Ken,
    
    It certainly sounds as if you ought to be right in there for proper
    floats/floatation, etc.  If, as you indicated, things were pretty
    water-logged, that could certainly explain a lot of things.  A plane
    can almost double its weight due to moisture absorption and still
    having water in the floats isn't helping either.  Dry things out
    good and give 'er another try...if things are still marginal/unac-
    ceptable, the only solution may well be to increase power/install
    a larger engine.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Ken, 
    
    I forgot to comment on yer' question re. splash-rails.  Actually,
    the Gee-Bee floats shouldn't require them if they're properly installed
    and not overloaded.  On an Ugly-Stik, my 33" Gee-Bees _do_ throw
    a considerable spray but well behind the prop-arc so it's of no
    consequence.
    
    If, however, you feel you want to try them, simply attach some
    1/8-3/32" square stock along the side of each float (both sides)
    where the fold-line is between the side and bottom.  These strips
    should run from the toe of the float, rearward to a point behind
    the prop-arc.  The purpose is to deflect the spray outwards clear
    of the prop, kinda' like the chine-rails on a boat.  You may have
    to experiment with best actual location, length, etc.  Gluing to
    the floats and waterproofing might also be challenging but can be
    done.  I wouldn't go too exotic 'til I was convinced the rails were
    doing some good and were optimally positioned.  Then I'd worry about
    making them permanent and waterproof.  

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Thanks for the info, Al.
    
    Well let me tell you what I found last night when I stripped the
    covering off my wing......a very wet and water logged wing!  All
    the sheeting around the center support was rippled, the trailing
    edge was rubbery and all the webb supports and wing spars looked
    like molded bread!  It was quite the mess...not to mention  that
    the monokote was covered with water droplets (inside the wing).
    I also had some wet foam inside the plane itself.  No wonder the
    poor girl couldn't leave the water!
    
    Looks like I'll have to build a new wing for this plane!  All the
    wood is soggy.....like corn flakes!
    
    Let this be a lesson to you future water-flyers....."Make sure 
    you seal that wing up TIGHT!"
    
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                     / \                         Ken
            ^^^^    () ()   ^^^^
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    Re: .-1, Ken,  
    
    Eau contraire; totally sealing a wing can be just as bad as having
    gaping holes in it, maybe worse.  Why, you ask?  Because moisture 
    doesn't necessarily enter the wing directly through an opening, 
    it also condenses on the _INSIDE_ of the covering.  More moisture 
    probably collects in this manner than directly enters through openings
    in the covering.  If this condensation doesn't have a way to get
    out/dry  out, it's absorbed into the structure, undermining the wing's 
    integrity, even breeding mold, mildew, etc. as you discovered.
    
    Ideally, the wing should be well sealed, covering-wise, but all
    ribs should have a small hole interconnecting all rib-bays to the
    center-section aileron cutout, allowing air to circulate.  A small
    pih-hole in the covering of each rib-bay is also a good idea; little
    water could enter but further ventilation is provided.  A thusly
    prepared wing is much less likely to attract and trap condensation
    and will drain, ventilate and dry the small amount that does form. 
    As you may've already surmised, foam wings are ideal, though not
    mandatory, for water operation.
    
    The fuse-to-wing seal is actually more critical than sealing the
    wing as this keeps water from directly entering the servo cutout
    and/or getting into the radio gear.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    Good point!  Maybe I ought to put my 48" foamy on my Eaglet!  The
    Eaglets' wing was only a 50", so what could it hurt?  Don't answer
    that!  But its a thought.  I guess if I can get enough lift from
    the wing area, I'll be alright.  Only, no ailerons!  Sure would
    lighten up the load on the floats.  Wouldn't have to worry about
    soaking the wings again.  Might look strange though!  But if it
    works.  I wonder....  Uhmmmmm.....  Maybeee........  
    
    	TO BE CONTINUED......
    
    
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                     / \                         Ken
            ^^^^    () ()   ^^^^
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              ^^^^   ^^^  ^^^^                  thinking out loud?)
    

    	Well, I finally put a water rudder on my bird!  Acutally looks
    good too!  I located it on the rear lateral support (centered) which
    sits about 5"- 7" from the end of the floats.  Hopefully it will
    work without too many problems.  It operates from the nose wheel.
    What I did was to take the nose gear off and replace it with a 2-1/2"
    nail.  On the nail I secured a servo horn.  The rudder ( a piece of
    1/8" balsa ply) is mounted under another servo horn and secured to
    the lateral float support.  I then used fish line and using the
    push-pull system, connected the two servos.  IT WORKS!  
    	It will only be effective while taxiing through the water. 
    When it gets on step, the rudder should be out of the water (We'll
    see about that one).
    	I replace the wing with one thats a little shorter and not quite
    as wide as the original, and doesn't have ailerons.  Oh well, I only
    want to get off the water and land again,,,,,no tricks.  In the mean
    time, I'll rebuild the original wing.  Wish me luck!
    
    Here is an idea of what I did;
    
      float ---------------------------------------------------------
          /                                                          |
    	  \                                                          |
    	    ---------------------------------------------------------
    				| |  <--- supports ---> | |
    				| |			| |
    				| |			| |
    		   		| |			| |
    		1               | |                     |2|
      nose gear	x               | |			|x=====
    		2               | |                     |1|   
    				| |			| |
    				| |			| |
    				| |			| |
            ---------------------------------------------------------
          /                                                          |
          \                                                          |
            ---------------------------------------------------------
    
    All I did was connect 1 to 1 and 2 to 2 (because of the steering
    set up inside the plane).
    
    Comments?
    		       
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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Ken,

    
>    Comments?

*  Locating the water-rudder to the rear spreader-bar should work OK but will 
likely be somewhat less effective than one which is mounted to the transom of 
one or both floats.  Give 'er a try.

I'm most anxious for you to finally get all the gremlins worked out and experi-
ence a successful water flight.  Then, perhaps, you'll consider altering your
logo as I've done below.  ;B^}
    		       
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)
    

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KEN'S [SOON TO BE] NEW LOGO:
----------------------------



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                    /___\                         
            	  ()     ()   






	    ^^^^	      ^^^^
        ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
              ^^^^   ^^^  ^^^^

    AL, I LIKE IT!  But as of now don't deserve it.  I'll be working on
    it over the weekend. Can't wait to do some touch and goes on H2O!
    
    
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                    /   \                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    Well, I just think I invented a new type of flying.....Carrier Flying!
    
    Friday, I went down to the lake to try and get my plane off the
    water, well again, no luck.  The floats must be out of line or
    something, because I can't keep it straight.  I got so frustrated
    I told my brother we were going to hand launch!  That's right...
    hand launch it from a moving boat!
    
    I was a little nervous at first, but as we headed into the wind
    I could feel the plane try to lift from my hand.  Now picture this...
    my brother is driving the boat (16' tri-hull)...I'm standing in
    the back holding the plane in my right hand and the radio in my
    left.  The plane is running at full throttle...along with the
    boat.  I was concerned with what the plane was going to do once
    it left my hand.  Would it take off straight into my brother or
    would it pitch out and deep six or........
    
    Well, I got the nerve to let it go....it just kind of rose real
    gentle like and started to move ahead of the boat.  What a trip!
    We stopped the boat and I flew it around for a couple of minutes.
    I then landed and tried to take off again...no luck.  We retrieved
    the plane and commenced to hand launch it 3 more times.... all
    successful.
    
    I then got a idea....lets catch up with the plane!!!  So we headed
    into the wind and I brought the plane around and put it directly
    in front of us.  I eased back on the throttle and it started to
    loose altitude gradually as we closed in on it.  I actually got
    the plane to "hover" right in front of me.  If I didn't have the
    radio in my hand, I could have just reached out and picked it out
    of the air!  It was AWSOME!
    
    Well, even though I couldn't get it off the water, I still had a
    terrific day of flying "from a carrier"!
    
    Later....
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    hey, next time you go out, bring a 3rd body along: That's one body
    to drive boat, another to drive plane and the last but not leat,
    one to lauch/retrieve plane..
    
    should be fun !!
    
    md
    
    ps: watch out for the prop !!

    
    Next time we go out (hopfully this week) there will be a third party,
    he will have a video camera.....
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    Ken,
    
    Well, congratulations on at least 1/2 a water flight.  I'm afraid
    I'm fresh out of ideas concerning yer' takeoff woes.  Wish I could
    be there to witness it first-hand and maybe pinpoint the cause of
    the di-fugelty!  Power could _still_ be yer' problem;  water-flying
    is verrry power absorbant and a plane that flies just fine from
    land may very well be inadequately powered for water use.    
    
    BTW, we used to do almost exactly what you describe from a moving
    boat, except for the hand-launch, that is.  It's really eerie to
    pace the airplane alongside the speeding boat...the plane seems
    to be hovering since there's no speed differential between it and
    the boat.  NOW DO A ROLL...mind boggling!  And it nearly scares
    the pants off ya' to turn away as the plane seems to accelerate
    as if shot from a cannon.  NEAT STUFF!

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    	Well I tried it again....still unsuccessfull!  I moved the floats
    back a little more, and that did make a difference.  I managed to get
    out of the water (which was very turbulent due to many boats) only to
    touch a wing tip and cartwheel.
    	I then went into hand launching mode.  Without any problems, the
    plane just lifted out of my hand (remember, we are in a moving boat).
    I made a few passes which, tickled my passengers and then started a
    turn to the right and climb....the plane starts turning left and
    dives!!!  I realize I have no control so I yell to my brother to
    catch up to the plane.  It was not to happen.  I did manage to get
    one more command into it before it hit the water at about a 30 degree
    angle.  The only damage was bending the support arm on the floats
    and ripping off a small portion of the fuse where the floats were
    attached.  
    	What happened was my fault,,,,,I didn't charge my batteries
    after the last couple of flights and the flight pack went south!
    Fortunately I didn't get wiped out, but did it make a splash when
    it hit!  Just like the old war movies...when a plane went in.
    	Oh well, until next time..........
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                    /___\                          Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    hey, water fyling may have redeeming qualities: Dunking the plane
    may reduce the amount of damage compare to a crash on "terra firma"

            
    	Absolutely!  I didn't even break a prop!
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
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    I had some float fun over the 4th of July weekend. The floats I made
    last year for my Kavalier went back on in about 15 minutes, with no
    adjustments required. I constructed a new, larger water rudder out of a
    piece of lite-ply. The water rudder worked pretty well this time. I
    used the dual rate on my rudder control - hi rate for slow taxi in the
    water and lo rate for takeoff and landing. I tried a takeoff with hi
    rate and it was pretty wild when it got up on the step, did a few zig
    zags before getting it up. 
    
    I felt much more comfortable this year, probably due to another
    year's experience in flying this plane. It flew very well and I had
    excellent audiences for every flight.  Boats that were passing by
    stopped to watch, and since just about every cottage was occupied
    there were a lot of spectators on their docks. After each flight
    there were cheers and applause from docks, boats, etc.
    
    The area where I was flying was about 1/4 mile across and 1/2 mile
    long, a stretch of water between an island (where I was) and the
    mainland. Thru-traffic on the water tends to stay on the other
    side opposite our place. There was one bass boat that came trolling
    along right in front of the dock while I was flying, and one other
    guy came bombing up in his boat to tell me how much he enjoyed it -
    while I was making a landing approach! On a busy lake you definitely
    need a spotter to watch the boats and wakes.
    
    Since it's a much more open area than where I fly off land (CMRCM
    field has lots of trees around) I felt more comfortable with low
    maneuvers and even tried extended inverted flying for the first
    time - made a couple full circles around with the floats sticking
    up in the air. The spectators loved it.
    
    I only wish there were more opportunities for float flying. So far
    I have been pretty lucky and have had no splash-down type landings,
    and could always taxi it right back to the dock. But I still wouldn't
    do it without a boat readily available.
    
    By the way, you guys who are talking about flying from moving boats,
    that sure sounds dangerous to me. I have trouble enough keeping
    perspective with varying lighting conditions, winds, etc, but to
    be moving as well I think I'd have a real hard time maintaining the
    feel of the plane. But, if you can handle it, that's great.
    
    Dave Hughes

    

        
    	Dave, congratulations on getting off the water!  What size plane
    and engine are you using?
    	I know what you mean about spectators, usually when fly all
    activity stops and focuses in on me and my plane.  Fortunately when
    I had a bad day there was no one around.
    	As far as the water rudder, where do you have it located and
    how long is it?
    	As far as flying from a moving boat, as long as your driver
    keeps his eyes on the lake and not on your plane you'll be alright!
    Perspective is really not a problem while your moving (at least I
    don't have a problem).  I always get this strange feeling in my
    hands almost like I'm inside the plane itself!  All movements of
    the plane are "felt" in my controls.  Sounds weird doesn't it.
    	Anyways, I can't wait till I finally get that dadgum plane off
    the liquid runway.  Another feat I haven't yet accomplished.
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    	I'd be really careful about flying close to people in a moving
    boat.  Even though the relative speed between the plane and the
    boat may be small, you still have a prop spinning at full speed.
    If the plane dives into the boat, someone could be hurt by that
    prop.  Also, some outboards put out a fair amount of RFI interference
    from the ignition system.  Just be very careful if you continue
    to do this.  I don't want to read about any boat - plane mishaps.
    
    Charlie
    

    re .75
    
    Reply .7 in this note is my description of my first attempt with
    floats from last year. But it's kind of long winded so I'll
    answer your specific questions here.
    
    I'm flying a Sig Kavalier, with an OS .45FSR engine. My personal belief
    after reading and hearing a lot about people having problems with float
    flying is that they're under-powered. My engine is bigger than the
    biggest recommended for the plane, and I think it's barely adequate for
    float flying. If you fly off a grass field, I would guess that if you
    have enough power to EASILY take off if the grass hasn't been mowed for
    a week, you probably will have enough power for floats. Floats add a
    whole lot of drag on takeoff, and a lot of drag while flying too. With
    wheels on, I don't have unlimited vertical performance but I can pull
    pretty big, round loops without much problem. With the floats, I can
    only do small loops because the added drag from the floats slows me
    right down on the up part of the loop. 
    
    The water rudder is about 2.5" long and 1.5" high. It's located at
    the back of the right float. I mounted it so the entire rudder is
    below the bottom of the float so it sticks down in the water even
    when I'm on step. I used half a nose-wheel mounting bracket, and a
    5/32 steel rod. The rudder is lite-ply, sealed with polyester resin.
    I then poked holes in the edge with a pin, and tied it around the
    steel rod with fishline, then glued with CA. The whole thing was
    then covered with ultrakote (had to make it red to match the plane).
    
    Dave

         
    	re .76
    
    	I agree with the safety issue you brought up.  Trying to catch
    a flying plane is not all to swift (safety wise).  Sometimes we
    just get carried away with what we can actually do with these toys!
    After this weekend I am reminded of what could of happened if I
    had the plane flying on the side of the boat when the battery pack
    went south....a wild plane near warm bodies.
    	I did take into consideration the fact that I am away from most
    warm bodies and property in case something like that happened.  I'd
    sure hate to drop a speeding plane onto someones sailboat...especially
    while they are sunbathing!  This is the only thing that makes me
    nervous about flying rc....loosing contact with the plane while it's
    flying.
    	I agree....safety first!
    
    re .77
    
    	Wow!  That sure is a large rudder!  Maybe thats why mine didn't
    work so well, it was thin, and I had it centered on the rear lateral
    support.
    	I agree that you need ALOT more engine to take off from the
    water.  As you can see by reading my notes, I still haven't achieved
    a water take-off due to a under powered plane.  Even though the Eaglet
    calls out for a .15 to .20 and I have a .25 on it, I still don't get
    enough speed (or just barely enough, since I did manage to get it off
    a couple of times only to re-enter in cartwheel fashion) to easily
    lift off.  Another reason is steering, but I'm working on that.  I
    believe float alignment is a critical step in water flying!  If they
    aim to one side its going to be hard to steer, and maybe thats one
    of my problems.
    	Oh well, its still a blast watching it blasting around like
    a boat!
    	Thanks for the info Dave.
    
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                    /___\                         Ken
            ^^^^  ()     ()   ^^^^
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    re .78
    Even though you can get it to pop out of the water, that does not
    mean that you have sufficient speed to fly. By pulling up to take
    off you increase the angle of attack of your wing. You need sufficient
    angle of attack to climb out, but increasing the angle of attack
    will increase your stall speed and also lose speed. I've seen
    takeoffs from grass that work the same way - pull up hard, the plane
    takes off and immediately snaps (usually to the left) and cartwheels
    in. Those symptoms very clearly show that you don't have sufficient
    airspeed when you're taking off. It may be possible to take off
    under those conditions if you immediately push the nose down as
    soon as you're out of the water, trying to fly it level just above
    the water for a few moments while you build up a little air speed.
    
    I'd suggest trying a .35 instead of the .25.
    
    Dave

    Well...  To clarify a few points.  First of all, yes, I agree that
    more power is REQUIRED for water flying than land flying.  I have
    planned on putting my K&B .40 on the new Big Stik 20.

    Gee Bee recommends a maximum of 5 pounds for the 28" floats (mine) and
    8 pounds for the 33" floats.  For the first attempt, I was using an
    O.S. .25 (not .20) on the plane I got from Kay and it weighed in at a
    little over 5 pounds with the floats.  It floated pretty low in the
    water and seemed to be dragging when I tried to take off.  It looked
    like the step was maybe a little too far forward and the plane was
    overweight for the floats.  It would "sort-of" come up on the step but
    the rear of the floats never came up (even with full down elevator). 
    I crashed the plane flying from land (with wheels :-) before I had a
    chance to play around with the step vs. C.G. location (see 239.??? for
    details).

    Anyway, I felt I'd have a winning combination with the larger (33")
    floats and/or attempting to build the second Big Stik a little
    lighter.  Kay used Coverite on the wings and fiberglass on the
    fuselage and tail.  I plan to use MonoKote all around.  I'll also
    probably cut some lightening holes in the tail and fuselage.

    Dan Snow, I think the bottom line is not how big the floats "look"
    on the plane - it's how well they float the plane in the water.

    Hey Al (and Dan Snow), quit picking on my Big Stik 20.  :-)  The
    wingspan is almost as big as the Big Stik 40 kits and is exactly the
    same my low wing Ugly Stik 40 (Midwest Sweet Stik?).  The point
    being that it isn't really that small at all - it's just a little
    under powered for water flying...  :-)

    And now, for something completely different, does anybody know a good
    way to attach floats to a low wing plane that's set up for tricycle
    gear?

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

	I did it!!!!  Fourth of July, what a day in northern Michigan...

	I was spending the weekend at my place at Lake Michigan.  I
	woke up to a sunny, nearly windless day, so decided to try
	something different!

	If you remember any of my exploits from last year, you know I
	had a Dura-plane I messed around with.  Well, I spent the
	day putting a set of Gee-Bee floats and a home built (steel
	wire soldered to a piece of tin can) water rudder on her.

	Evening came and we were off to the beach.  We walked quite a
	ways from the crowds and fired 'er up!  I have an O.S. 40 on
	the beast...it actually has a lot more pep than my friends'
	O.S. 40 ?!?

	Anyway, first flight, the wind caught the wing (pilot error) and
	twisted the plane around, stalling the engine...but still
	floating upright!  A short swim later, and I was ready to try again.

	Second flight....beautiful!  I felt like I did when I had my first
	successful land take-off!  Watching her race across the water was
	great.  It sure did look strange....imagine a Dura-plane with
	Floats!!!!

	Anyway, I had a couple flights after that and called it a day.
	Can't wait to try it again....

	cheers,
	brian

    October 89 was a good month for magazine articles on this topic.
    
    "Floats and Fittings", Ed Westwood, Model Aviation, page 93...
    
    "Float Gear and Rudder Systems", John Sullivan, Model Airplane News, 66

    
    See also
    
    "Basics of Float Flying", John Sullivan, page 28... in 1989 MAN Annual

    Dave,
    
    Yer' FIRST mistake (in both instances) was forgetting what the throttle 
    stick is for...never, _never_, _Never_, _N_E_V_E_R_ try to force an
    airplane into the air with the elevator, regardless of the surface yer'
    flying from but especially from water.  That's an open invitation to
    just exactly what'cha got..., a snap on takeoff.  If'n you'd been
    flying from land, you'd have torn things up considerably worse.
    
    From what you describe, I tend to agree that the first instance was
    probably caused by water in one float...it doesn't take much to cause a
    float to sit lower in the water, increasing the drag on that side
    _radically_!  BTW, did anyone bother to tell you that you should plug
    the drain holes in the floats with a metal screw liberally coated with
    RTV?  These holes are intended as drains only but, if not sealed, can
    take water _IN_.  Once sealed, if water appears in a float, you've got
    a leak which must be repaired before you'll have any success again.
    
    After the first snap/prang, you probably took more water in the
    offending float plus, as you surmise, took on a LOT of weight by
    soaking the balsa structure.  Also, it's possible you dorked the
    mounting straps, changing the float incidence which _must_ be
    maintained at least parallel with the fuse centerline...it's ok for the
    nose of the airplane to be just a _little_ (a degree or two) down
    relative to the floats' deckline but the opposite is real trouble.
    
    When building an airplane with the intention of operating from water,
    even occasionally, it's a _great_ idea to apply a coat or two of
    Balsarite (for waterproofing) to the _inside_ of all structure, including 
    the wing, before buttoning everything up.  Weight gain is slight and
    the protection is more than worth it.  Also, planes used on water
    should have all pushrod exits, hatches and wing saddle sealed against
    water for obvious reasons.  A high or shoulder winger takes a terrific
    assault of water sprayed from the floats directly at the wing saddle
    and everyday foam tape is not adequate to the task of sealing against
    water.  Here, you should drape Saran-wrap over the bottom of the wing
    center section...smooth out wrinkles and tauten, then apply RTV
    liberally ALL AROUND the wing saddle.  Install the wing and let the
    excess RTV squish out.  Let this mess dry/cure for several days before
    disturbing, then remove wing and trim away excess RTV using a SHARP
    single-edge razorblade dipped frequently in water.  Hatches can be
    sealed similarly, taped closed with electricians tape or whatever flips
    yer' switch.  Speaking of the switch, the switch should be mounted
    INSIDE the fuse and remotely actuated by a piece of music wire or any
    of the commercial units intended for this purpose.  For pushrod exits,
    this is one of the VERY few applications for which I'd recommend using
    Nyrods as they won't allow water intrusion into the fuselage interior.
    If you already have conventional pushrods, a liberal application of
    silicone grease works OK for a temporary seal though it's a bit messy.
    You can make a slightly more permanent temporary seal by molding
    modeling clay into the exit and around the pushrod such that it moves
    back-and-forth within the clay seal.  If properly sealed, there's no
    need to go to any extremes waterproofing the radio although I always
    place batteries and receivers in a plastic-baggie, even for landplanes,
    and highly recommend this for water operations.  BTW, the reason we
    Balsarited the inside of the wing is because moisture forms inside by
    condensation, especially with plastic-film coverings and high humidity.
    We always made a pinhole "vent" in each rib bay to minimize the
    condensation and provide a drain.
    
    In both instances, you should've taxied back and tried to determine the
    trouble rather than taking the bit in yer' teeth and trying to horse it
    off...you almost NEVER get away with this, especially on water and,
    even if you _do_, yer' forming a VERY bad habit that I guarantee'll GET
    YOU sooner or later, most probably sooner!  Best'a lusck with future
    attempts.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

Wow, that's weird! I knew something was wrong when I entered the note, because
when I SENT it, Dan's note appeared in its place! (I mentioned this to Al Ryder,
so he was forewarned). But what's even stranger is that Al Casey saw the note 
when even I didn't! Which I'm thankful for because Al brought up something which
hadn't occured to me, that more water in one float than the other would cause
the plane to turn because of the increased drag. Also, I did NOT plug the holes
(kind of dumb, huh?). They're very small and I didn't think much water could 
get in. So I was fighting with the alignment of the floats when the more likely
problem was the water IN the floats. Thanks for the suggestion, Al.

I'll reproduce the lost note here. The original is probably still somewhere in
the Enet, maybe in Notesfiles Purgatory.

********************************************************************************

	Just when you think you understand something in this hobby, it gives
	you a royal kick in the butt.
	
	I thought I had the hang of this water flying stuff. Took my Kadet
	with floats up to Lake Wentworth in New Hampshire to a friends place.
	Conditions were great: light breeze, and gentle water. My first two
	flights were fantastic. The takeoffs were easily the best I've done
	yet, mainly because they were straight. Landings were utterly routine.
	
	On the third try, I stoked up the engine, put the plane in the water,
	and watched it turn tight right hand circles. I COULDN'T get it to 
	go straight! I then tried forcing it out of the water, which was a 
	mistake, because it immediately snapped back in (it was an exceptional
	thing it watch: it went COMPLETELY under water, then popped back up
	on its floats, bobbing on the waves contentedly). 
	
	After wringing it out, and blow drying the fuse, we checked the 
	alignment of the floats. They were a little out of kilter, but not to
	a great extent. So we bent it back. I also noticed some water inside
	the floats, but it didn't seem like much, and it's hellishly difficult
	to get the water to drain out those tiny holes on the top of the floats
	(they're Gee Bees, by the way).
	
	So, tried again. Even with the floats lined up properly, it circled to
	the right! Once again I tried a takeoff. I had what I thought was plenty
	of speed, but it refused to lift off the water. Eventually, one float
	caught a wave, flipping the plane over, and severely bending the 
	aluminum struts in the process.
	
	My friend and I just looked at each other and shook our heads. What 
	was so different now from the first two flights???? My best guess so 
	far is that the combination of water in the floats and water soaked 
	into the fuse just made the plane too heavy to get off the water. The
	engine was running fine, so that wasn't the problem. Any other ideas?
	I don't particularly enjoy sponging out the inside of my plane.
	
	Dave

    Well, I'm about to head on my annual pilgrimmage to Lake Winnepesaukee,
    to my folks' place on an island. This time I'm planning to go with
    the Sig Kavalier on floats. This was first flown on floats three (or 4)
    years ago. Last year I put the floats on my new Super Sportster Bipe,
    but I don't like the way it fle - the CG was too messed up vertically
    and the plane wouldn't fly inverted very well at all (or any stunt
    that takes it inverted, which is most anything). I have a 35mm camera
    set up for the Kavalier that I haven't tried yet, but I don't know
    if I can protect it from the spray. I'd love to have some aerial
    photographs of the island.
    
    So far I've succeeded in not dunking an airplane, although I know
    it will happen sometime. I took some precautions during
    construction, although not to the extent that Al recommends
    (nevertheless, I second his recommendations). Al's exactly right,
    the shoulder-wing Kavalier takes a full blast of water right at
    the wing saddle during every takeoff run. I have a  tight seat on
    the saddle, using Sig Epoxolite. I stick tape over the charger
    opening on the side, and take the wing off after every flying
    session to check for any leakage through the saddle.
    
    Lake Wentworth is nearby. Is anybody going to be in the area next week?
    I'll be there from Sunday 7/22 through Wednesday 8/1. Last year I
    did some float flying with Jeff Friedrichs in Winter Harbor. I'd
    love to have a flying partner again this year.

    Dave Hughes
    

    What a fun weekend!!
    
    I got in a bunch of flights of my Cub on floats!  (Goldberg plane and
    floats)  The cub REALLY flies nice with the floats as it slows down
    quite a bit on landing.  Loops, rolls, stalls, etc are just as gentle
    and no problem.  The .50FSR seems to be perfect....  It is still a bit
    faster than scale, but water takeoffs are pretty realistic.
    
    I didn't add the water rudders, but I think I am going to...  I could
    taxi without them, but with the "vee" shaped floats, I had to taxi VERY
    fast.
    
    A friend also had a 40 size Seamaster.  This flew really well, until it
    started to take on some water...  It is so low to the water that the
    radio foam was pretty wet by the end of the day.  It really tracks 
    nicely though once flying and was quite a bit different from the 
    more graceful cub...  But both were a lot of fun..
    
    Avoiding the boat traffic was a bit interesting, but neither one of us
    had a problem...
    
    Hey Dave Hughes, we have changed our plans and will be up in Wolfeboro
    on July 6/7.  Do you want to fly at my place or yours??  If we fly at
    our place, let's start around 9 before the boat traffic picks up.
    
    Anyone else interested in spending the day float flying, let me know
    via mail and I will get you directions!
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    
    > .89
    
    I just purchased a set of CG floats for my Cub, and have a couple of
    questions. Did you use the ventral fin? What did you use to cover them?
    Did you have to do anything different than what the plans said? Was
    it any problem getting the angle of the floats and alignment etc...
    
    
    All I have to do to finnish mine is to put the bottom pieces on and 
    cover, I'm using super shrink coverite. Can you add any wisdom to this?
    
    
    
    

    Yes, I have been using the ventral fin on the plane..  However, I found
    that it was collecting water and throwing my CG off.  At the CAGS float
    fly a few weeks ago, there were several cubs of various makes..  None
    of them used the ventral fin..  So it is likely that next summer I 
    won't put it on.
    
    I set it up exactly as the plans, except I only have 1 water rudder. 
    It is plenty effective...
    
    If you have a C.G. cub, everything sets up very easily..
    
    I used fiberglass/resin/paint on my floats..  I know that they are 
    sealed and strong.  I would be suspect of other coverings getting 
    water inbetween the covering and skin.  Then, if there is a gap in
    the skins, water will get inside...
    
    
    As I said, my biggest problem of the year was the center of gravity...
    It seemed to be right at the beginning of the year but very off towards
    the end of the year..  
    
    Good luck and enjoy!
    jeff
    

    
    
    I think I'll use a good dose of bulsarite to water proof before I
    cover.
    Also what did you do to water proof your plane?        Yes I have a CG
    Cub.
    
    Thanks
    Bruce

    Actually, I did not do a lot to waterproof the airframe..  
    
    However, I did use super coverite and then painted with K&B.  I am
    in general less concerned with the water damage than I am with the 
    changing CG which can make each flight an adventure..
    
    Enjoy!
    jeff
    

    
    
    Speaking about CG how critical is it to having the CG 1/4-3/8 inc.
    ahead of the standard CG. And also has anyone thought of puting wheels
    on the front of the foats,removing the rudders and replacing them with
    stearable wheels?? I would like to do this to my setup if anyone has
    any ideas please comment. I have a CG Anniv. J-3cub with the
    superfloats.
    
    Thanks 
    Bruce

    Well, mine flew pretty well with the CG considerably farther back.  It
    flew, but it was not stable.  You REALLY want to get the CG right.  If 
    anything, start forward and remove weight until it starts to get
    unstable, then add just a bit..  Starting tail heavy can really cause
    problems (right Gremlin pilots?)
    
    As for making it into an amphibion...  I am sure people have done that 
    with some models.  I don't believe the cub was ever set up that way
    (full scale).  In the model you have a few problems:
    
     - need to retract the main gear into the float
     - the attach points from wheels-floats-landing gear must all be able
    	to take the different forces.
     - The floats still need to be watertight
     - The steering linkage in the floats would be "interesting"
    
    
    Why are you thinking of doing this?? It only takes a few minutes to
    swap from floats to wheels...  Or are you going to use the floats
    during the winter and want to be able to steer on the hardpacked snow?
    
    Good luck if you try it!  Let us know how it works!
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    Filled the fuel tank, radio check, primed the engine purrrrrrred like
    a mountain lion. That K+B .61 sounds better every time it runs. Set
    the Cub in the water gave it left/right rudder to see how she turned
    smoother than my wifes.....as I gave it throttle (3/4) I could see the
    floats dancing off the ripples. It was though I could here her say give
    me a touch of elevator and I'm gone,I did as she commanded and what a 
    pritty sight talk about addicted that's an understatement. One slight
    problem standing on the shore line you could not feel the wind that was
    present in the middle of the lake. Well danced in the air and I had a
    tough time bringing her in she hit hard on the water but every thing
    went better than expected. If I could make one wish it would be spring
    time. If anyone has the slightest thought of flying of the water do it.
    There is only one thing I can think of thats better than this. It wes
    great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
    

>                   <<< Note 328.96 by DNEAST::MALCOLM_BRUC >>>
>                            -< weekend excitement >-
...
    There is only one thing I can think of thats better than this. It wes
    great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   


Me too - flying off snow :-)

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
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