Conference vmszoo::rc

    TOM,
    I DON'T HAVE THE RULES WITH ME AT WORK NOW. I WILL TRY TO COVER
    THEM IN GENERAL FROM MEMORY... DISTRICT 8.....
    
    WE ARE GOING TO ABIDE BY THE NEW RULES THAT THE NMPRA CAME UP WITH
    THIS YEAR. THEY WERE PUBLISHED IN THE JAN NMPRA MAGAZINE. THESE
    RULES HAVE BEEN ADOPTED BY THE AMA WHICH IS INCLUDING Q500 AT THE
    LINCOLN NATS THIS YEAR. THE RULES WERE PUBLISHED IN THE JAN ISSUE
    OF THE AMA MAGAZINE. (THE ONE I RECIEVED IN JAN).
    
    BASICALLY A SCAT CAT TYPE DESIGN. 500 SQ IN WING.
                                      BOX TYPE FUS.
                                      4 CONTROLS
                                       ENGINE
                                       RUDDER
                                       ELEVATOR
                                       ALER
    ENGINE                            .40 STOCK 100%
                                      FRONT INTAKE
                                      SIDE EXAUST
                                      STOCK MUFFLER
    PROP                              9X(YOUR CHOICE)
    WEIGHT                            MIN 3.5 LBS.
    FUEL PRESSURE                     MUFFLER ONLY
    
    THE INTENT OF THE NEW RULES (STOCK MUFF AND 9 INCH PROP) IS INTENDED
    TO MAKE THINGS MORE EQUAL AND KEEP THE EXPENSE DOWN. LAST YEAR WE
    HAD PIPES ETC.
    
    THERE IS A LAGGING DISPUTE OVER THE RULES. THE PRESIDENT OF THE
    NMPRA SAID NO ROSSI'S. THEY COME STOCK WITH A MINI PIPE. SOME EXEC
    VP OF THE AMA SAID ROSSI'S WERE OK BECAUSE THE PIPE IS STOCK AND
    ST IS GOING TO COME OUT WITH THE SAME ITEM SOON. MOST OF US DOWN
    HERE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO BUY A NEW ENGINE JUST FOR THE 4 OR 5
    RACES WE WILL HAVE THIS YEAR. ALSO IF WE BUY ONE AND THIER NOT
    LEGAL AT THE NATS???????? 
    
    1986 WE RAN ST ABC'S WITH PIPES AND GLO BEE PLUGS. CRANK PRESSURE.
         NO RUDDER CONTROL.
    1985 WE RAN RINGED COMO'S WITH NO MUFFLER. CRANK PRESSURE. NO
         RUDDER CONTROL.
    
    AS YOU CAN SEE WE HAVE NO STANDARD YEAR TO YEAR. I HOPE KNOW THAT
    THE AMA HAS RECOGNIZED Q500 THE CHANGES WILL BE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.
    
    I MIGHT ADD THAT ON THE WEST COAST THEY HAVE TWO CLASSES. ONE FOR
    THE NEW RULES AND ONE CALLED EXPERT (PIPES, ETC.)
    
    YOU'LL REALLY ENJOY Q500.
    
    BOB
    
    
    AS YOU CAN SEE

    Our rules in NE are similar yet different. They are(from memory)
    
    The AMA sport racing class III rules with these additions.
    
    	1, only stock K&B .40 engines. 
    	2, Master Airscrew 10/6, You can clean off the mold flashing
    and balance. That's all the mods the prop can see.
    	3, Stock K&B muffler or Flow thru muffler(Stock) No home mad
    mufflers.
    	4, Fuse corners max. radious of 1/4 inch. We used a router table
    and a 1/4"R. bit for this.
    	5, Min 3.5 lbs. 
    	6, Rudder is optional.
    	
    	With the 1/4 "fuse corner rule you can't cowl in an engine.
    The engine mount that is designed to reduce drag is also a NO NO.
    
    						Tom
    
    If you could copy your rules I'd appreciate it MS. SPO Bld 104-1
    Tom Tenerowicz.
    
    

    Five of us here in Western Mass. are toying with the idea of racing.
    We have built Q500 planes for that event. The rules are simple.
    
    Min. frontal area of fuse is 2"x2"
    Stock K&B .40, Stock muffler or stock flow thru muffler. 9 x 6 prop.
    10% fuel(supplied at contest).Prop can have smooth off molding flashing
    and be balanced.
    Max fuse radius of 1/4"
    Four channels throttle,elevator,rudder and ailerons
    Two fixed main wheels
    Rounded Prop nut
    Min 500 sq,in, wing constant cord      
    Min. weight of 3.5 lbs.             
    
    My suggestion is to go with everything stock,off the shelf items.
    Choose two of three legal kits.Use a stock out of the box with no
    modifications engine. Stock prop.
    Be severe with cheaters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    						Tom

    P.S. to note 154.1,   The prop is a stock Master Airscrew
    
    							Tom

    In car F1 racing, one has a choice of two engines sizes:
    
    	3 liter normally aspirated and
       1.5 liter turbo.
    
    So what about the idea of using .20 engines with pipes as an
    alternativeto the .40.?? No mods allowed to engine. 

    	Our group are all running Scat Cat's.  With the rules as they
    have been defined and all of us using stock Scat Cats,K&B .40
    engines and the same gallon of fuel the plane are as identical as
    they can be. I think that is what you want from a novice or beginners
    class. The winner is always the one that flies the best. Their isn't
    any technilogical advantages. The whole set up minus radio is no
    more than 100.00. That's cheap to get into racing.  What your trying
    to do is set up a class that is cheap,Fair and employes the KISS
    point of view. Q500 using a stock K&B .40 and one or two designated
    designs is the way to go. It promotes flying skills rather than
    technoligy.  The flying skills is what will allow you to continue.
    
    	Your idea of using a .20 with a pipe is viable but it defeats
    the KISS portion of the formula.
    
    						Tom

    JOHN,
    WE HAVE CREATED A REAL MESS IN THIS COUNTRY THIS YEAR OVER Q500
    RULES. THE NMPRA CAME UP WITH A NEW SET OF RULES THIS YEAR THAT
    THE AMA HAS ADOPTED. Q500 WILL BE INCLUDED AT THE NATS IN LINCOLN
    FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS YEAR. THE RULES WERE PUBLISHED IN THE JAN
    OR FEB ISSUE OF AMA MAGAZINE. IN TRYING TO MAKE THE RULES TO MEET
    THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVES; CHEAP, KISS, ENTRY LEVEL RACING WE DIDN'T
    MAKE THEM STRICT ENOUGH. THE NE DISTRICT RULES HAVE TWO ITEMS THAT
    WOULD SOLVE MANY OF THE PROBLEMS; 9X6 PROP AND A DESIGNATED ENGINE.
    
    THE NEW AMA RULES STATE THAT ANY FRONT INTAKE SIDE EXAUST .40 ENGINE
    WITH A STOCK MUFFLER IS LEGAL. IT ALSO STATES THAT THERE WILL BE
    NO MINI PIPES, PIPES ETC. AFTER MANY MONTHS OF DISCUSSION IT LOOKS
    LIKE THEY ARE GOING TO ALLOW ROSSI'S TO RUN. WITH IT'S MINI TYPE
    PIPE DESIGN IT RUNS 2000 RPM FASTER THAN A S/T OR COMO OR ETC. SO
    NEW ENGINES (EXPENSIVE) NEW PLANES SINCE THE ROSSI IS SO HEAVY,
    ETC. NOW PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO CHANGE THE RULES TO INCLUDE CHANGING
    THE CARB ON THE ROSSI SINCE IT HAS KNOWN PROBLEMS. AND SOOOOOOOO
    IT GOES.
    
    IN CALIF. THEY HAVE TWO CLASSES. ONE SIMILAR TO THE NE AND AN EXPERT
    CLESS. 40'S WITH PIPES ETC. YOU CAN'T RUN IN BOTH CLASSES.
    
    MAKE YOUR RULES ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. STATE THE OBJECTIVE OF THE RULES
    AS PART OF THE RULES.....
    
    BOB
    

    re .4
    
    A .20 with pipe would be sort of inline with the KISS idea.
    
    Say I already own the engine, all I need is the pipe (cheaper than
    a new engine). 
    
    re .5 : There is an easy way to fix the guy with the faster revving
    engine: you have a rule that sez you can't rev the engine over a
    given RPM. (+ or - a certain range say 300 rpm). If everybody has
    an identical prop & plane, then you should have everybody on a pretty
    even keel
    
    md

Thanks Guy's for the ideas, its obvious that the desired result can be
achieved in a number of ways. I guess I did not make it clear but we want to
leave the choice of engine and model pretty much open. I like the idea of a
limited top RPM, and particularly the your idea Bob of a statement of intention
of the rules then giving the CD discretion to disqualify or handicap a
contestant blatantly violating the intention of those rules. 

If anybody has there rules on the system I would appreciate it if you could 
Mail them to me on RIPPER::CHADD or hard copy to SNO-C/2.

Thanks for the help.

John.

    try the limited RPM and see what happens: The rules can read something
    like this:
    
    	plane weight: minimum of (whatever you favorite number)
        wing area:      "         "             "
        wing span:      "         "             "
        engine size: FREE  - RPM will not be allow to EXCEED xxxxx
    		     at full throttle  (or whatever scheme you devise)
        prop    : 9X6 (or whatever) by brand x
    
        
    
    let me know how it works out..
    
    md

Thank you all for your inputs, the following is what I have come up with as a 
first pass. Again I would welcome any comments or suggestions.

Thanks again.

John.

1 Aim of the Event

The aim of the event is to encourage new fliers to the sport of pylon racing 
and provide competition to those who wish to race but are not inclined to 
participate in the FAI or Quarter Midget (QM) class.

The Contest Director may apply an additional handicap (up to 10%) if he feels 
that a model or pilot are not in keeping with the spirit of the event.

2 The Aircraft

2.1 Eligible Aircraft

Any Aircraft currently used for Sports Purposes by the average club member. 
They may be of high, shoulder, or low wing configuration.

2.2 Undercarriage

If retracts are fitted the must be locked in the down position for the duration
of the flight. 

2.3 Wing

For models with an engine of 6.5cc (.40cui) or greater only, the wing must have
a minimum leading edge radius of 3/16" and a minimum wing area of 450 sq " 

3 Engine

3.1 Engine Type

Capacity up to 7.5cc (.45cui) front induction side exhaust only. A working 
Carburetor must be fitted that will allow the engine to idle and the model 
remain stationary for a period of 15 seconds.

3.2 Exhaust system

The engine must be fitted with an expansion type muffler as supplied with the 
engine. Tuned exhaust systems including Magic Mufflers are not eligible.

3.3 Airscrews 

Any 2 bladed sport propeller may be used. Glass, Carbon and other performance
resin type props are not eligible. Engines between 6.5cc (.40cui) and 7.5cc
(.45cui) must be fitted with a 10"x6" prop, smaller engines have no
restrictions on the size. All props may be worked on one blade only for the
purpose of balancing. 

4 Fuel

Standard formula (as per FAI F3D rules) fuel must be used and is supplied by 
the organizers.

5 Race Procedure

The race shall be run in accordance with the FAI F3D Pylon procedure's with the 
following exceptions.

5.1 Landing after the Race

Aircraft must land with the engine running or be seen to make a genuine 
attempt to do so. Failure to do so will incur a one cut penalty.

5.2 Number of Rounds

A race will consist of 3 or more rounds, the lowest score being dropped.

5.3  Scoring

A 10% penalty will result for each cut, 3 or more cuts a competitor will zero 
score that round.

5.4 Handicapping

If a competitor is a regular pilot in FAI or Quarter Midget Pylon he will incur 
a 5% penalty (not counted as a cut).

If a competitor scores better than (say 1:50sec) he will incur a 5% penalty on 
the remaining rounds (not counted as a cut).

6 Course

The event will be flown over a standard QM course (145 meter sides and 30 meter 
base).

    John,
    Well I finally gave in and bought a ROSSI. I swore I wouldn't buy
    a new engine as a process of the annual change in rules, but I was
    getting tired of being blown away. Our average number of contestants
    this year is 13 compared to more than 20 last year. We're killing
    quickie by changing the rules every year that result in spend, spend,
    spend. Beware!!!!!!!!!!
    
    By the way the old Top Flight F1 pylon props (9X8) really make the
    Rossi's go. I took seven of seven heats and fast time last Sunday.
    Think I'm going back to my Super Tigre and have more racing instead
    of just blowing everybody away.
    
    Good luck,    Bob
    

Hi Bob,

Rule changes are a problem to all classes of competition flying. When F3A had 
what was in effect their annual rule changes some years back, the event almost 
died, the same occurred with F3D just before the change from the old 600sq" to 
the present F1 style models. Major rule changes have and always will be a 
de-motivating force in our sport.

I take it you have purchased a 40 size Rossi, I am told they are good, My only 
Rossi is a 15 and that screams. If your rules allow it try a glass or carbon 
prop, and if you dont already have one already get a Prather Pitch Gauge and 
start working the props. You will be surprised at what can be achieved by 
changing and correcting  the prop pitch and profile.

See Ya! 

John.