Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    
    	I know what you mean... That is depressing... My father found
    a NICE 8-point buck on Wednesday of the Shotgun season that "somone"
    had shot probably Monday and didn't follow up... Since the weather
    had been warm Tuesday the buck was badly bloated and when he opened
    it up it stunk to high-heaven.
    
    	I guess you could attribute it to "Slob hunter" techniques...

    
    	Getting to the question: I was told by a game warden that it
    is illegal to shoot dogs running deer, as only EPO's, MDC police
    and Dog Officer's are allowed to do so, however I was told in the
    same breath; It's nearly impossible to trace buckshot ;-)
    
    
    
    	Disclaimer:  I'm just relaying what I was told, I'm not stating
    			my opinion, just the facts....
    
    
    
    					~Mike~

    
    
    See 24.32 through 24.93.
    
    Doug

    ....I'll think you'll find that almost everyone out there would
    of shot the bastards!!!! If anyone has respect for hunting they
     would take control of the situation and get rid of the dogs.
    
        I had a situation one day this year, I was hunting close to
    state game land when i heard a beagle. I stared at the area
     that the dog was barking in and saw a nice fork horn buck running
    about 200yds away. I tried to hit the buck but missed.
           At that point i figured " well i missed the buck so i'll
    shoot the dog " Well my luck went sour for both animals. I MISSED...
    
    
       ....My point is this........
    
    
                 Why should we have to live with laws saying we can
    not shoot a dog unless we own it, or the game warden shoots it????
    
              To hell with certain laws.... especially this one.. (-:
    
    
           jeff
    

      I agrre totally with reply 320.3, up here in Maine the wardens
    told me if you see a dog chasing deer and you know this for sur
    shoot it and call the warden and they will take care of it, How
    can we manage a healthy deer herd when dogs are running them to
    death, the worst case on crusty snow where the dogs stay on top
    of the crust, back probably 5 years ago we were rabbit hunting
    in Unity maine, A big swamp, we found seven deer dead. Hard to 
    believe huh, at first we thought it was coyotes, we called the 
    warden and helped him follow the tracks to a dog owners house who
    owned 2 big sheperds. the warden took over from there and later
    i was told the dogs were put away. It was definitely a sad sight
    for a hunters eyes. Theres not much too look forward to for the
    following deer season when dogs have cleaned out your spot.
    
                                               Rick
                                         maine guide

    This topic was discussed already in this file at great length.
    Do we really have to start it again.  All as I can say is if you
    shoot my dog and the law is on my side I would do everything I
    could to bust you.  But then I am a responsible dog owner and do
    not let my dog run loose except when she is hunting/training.  If 
    she were lost in the woods, I would be out there looking for her.
    
    I do think it is disgusting what dogs can do to a deer, and if a
    warden shot my dog while in the act, I would accept it.
    
    	Linda

    I wasn't aware that the topic was discussed earlier. 
    In response to .5 
    Linda, if you had seen this, I think you would feel differently
    about shooting dogs. Yes it's against the law, however we must all
    do what we think is right. In this case, had I seen the dogs blood
    soaked one of them would have received a .50 cal ball for Christmas!

    .5 says it all; responsible dog owners don't let them run loose.
    If my dogs escape and are caught running game or livestock, shoot
    them with my blessing,regardless of the law.
    
    	George
    

    The earlier discussion took place in the Ethics note #24,
    replies .32-.93 when the moderator requested that we finish
    with the topic.
    	Linda

    Well, I agree with Linda. For one, were these dog's or coyote ?
    Phillipston has a good number of coyote now. Don't take the law
    into your own hands. If hunters start shooting dog's that may
    or may not be running deer, it won't be long before we start reading
    about good hunting dog's being shot. Right now I can hunt grouse
    and rabit with my dog, I don't want some nut taking a shot at my
    dog because in his mind any dog in the woods must be running deer.
    
    
    Jim

    
    I second Linda's suggestion of stopping this note from further replies
    about the ethics of shooting a dog running a deer or whatever.
    I went and re-read an awful lot of the replies in note #24, and
    a lot of good points were brought up on both sides, we don't need to 
    rehash this.  Go and read the replies Linda referenced and I don't
    think anyone can find room for further discussion.
                 
    thanks,
    
    Kevin
    

      On Monday afternoon while muzzleloading I came across a deer that
    had been killed, gutted, and hung in a tree sometime during the
    Mass. shotgun season.  My theory: hunter without doe permit kills
    doe, leaves deer in woods while searching for a "friend" with a
    doe permit, can't find a "friend", leaves deer to rot.  What a terrible
    waste! 
      A couple of years back two dogs (golden retriever and a husky)
    were running deer in a swamp.  My partner saw them the day before
    chasing two nice bucks.  So I climbed a small knoll that "sounded"
    good and in a few minutes a red fox ran over my right foot quicker
    than you could blink.  Well a minute or so later the dogs ran right
    up to me.  I "knew" these were the same two dogs that my partner
    saw the day before so I took off the safety and put the sights on
    the first one and they both saw me and put on the brakes.  I didn't
    shoot them (I couldn't).  I was mad enough to blast their owners
    but not the dogs, after all they were just doing what was natural.
    The interesting thing was the way the dogs reacted when they saw
    me.............. they lowered their heads and dropped their tails
    and acted like they knew they were wrong.  This action still puzzles
    me to this day.  If running deer is natural why did they act like
    they "got caught with their fingers in the cookie jar".
      Dogs that run deer all the time are pretty easy to locate in the
    winter months when there is snow cover.  They will establish a run
    from their house to the area where they find deer.  As far as a comment on
    something said in an earlier reply; coyotes won't waste their time
    chasing a healthy deer because they are too busy searching for food.
    Perhaps if someone fed the coyotes on a regular basis they'd find
    good "sport" in running deer to death which is usually caused by
    making a yarded deer work up a sweat. 
    

    How do you "take the safety off" with a muzzleloader?
    
    carl    

    I think this note should stay open... It's a problem and we just
    can't avoid it all together. I realize that allot of people in this
    notes file own dogs but no one is pointing fingers at any one we're
    just repling to a topic of interest. 
    	If I seen a dog running deer I wouldn't shoot the dog but I
    would let the local warden know about the dog and let them decide
    what should be done. I vote to keep it open....
    
    
    mike
    

    re.12
            Move the "Hammer" to the second click/position.

    re: .12
    Carl,
    .11 Second paraghraph is in reference to a shotgun hunt in Londonderry
    N.H.   Hence, "took the safety off".  Sorry for the deception.
    
    But I believe that some of the new modern designed muzzleloaders
    actually have modern safety devices.  I also acknowledge the fact
    that these weapons are not legal in Mass during their muzzleloading
    season. The gun I saw pictured had an in-line bolt similar to the
    old style that single shot .22 rifles had and I believe it had some
    sort of a safety to go along with it.
    
    Dave
                                         
    

    
    
    	I am now a graduate of note 24, having read all the comments
    about dogs and deer.  Most of those comments were awhile back, so
    I hope most everyone has cooled off a bit as it was quite intense
    (and I wasn't in the middle!).  I am not here to beat the subject
    any more other than to add some personal observations that may help
    someone else when dealing with this type of situation.  I am from
    Vermont where this is a problem as we sometimes get heavy snowfall
    and some cold temps.  I have witnessed dogs running deer and noticed
    that several points about the situation were missed from note 24.
    Probably in the heat of battle!
    
    
    	- I saw dogs running deer three times.  On two occasions there
    	  was snow, and the other time was during a bare deer season.
    	  I saw the deer, then the dogs came along within just a few
    	  minutes in every case.  All times they were barking
    
    	- I notified the local game warden in all cases.  In one 
    	  instance, one of the dogs I saw was the SAME dog I had  
    	  seen running deer preiously.  It was a year later, and the
    	  owner must have forgotten that his dog liked to chase.  The
    	  warden had warned the owner, but no fine was issued because
    	  he was not the one to catch the dog in the act.
    
    	- I made a mistake during one of the incidents by shooting 
    	  with my shotgun over the dog to scare him away.  I shot
    	  4 times and ran after him before he left the track.  After
    	  discussing this with the warden I learned that this was the
    	  WRONG thing to do.  The warden said that dogs will later trail
    	  quietly after being shot over like that and are then very
    	  difficult for the wardens to find.  
    
    	- The wardens also told me that deer are often chased in front
    	  of cars by dogs.  Also, if the dogs don't catch the deer,
    	  it still places a severe stress on them during a very difficult
    	  time of year.  When it is cold the deer will die of pneumonia
    	  and exhaustion days later.  During the winter a deer has to
    	  conserve every ounce of energy it has to survive.   
    
    	- I conversed with two different wardens on these matters, and
    	  they both responded differently.  One was "by the book", but
    	  also suggested that the only real penalty for shooting someones
    	  dog was the risk of being sued by the owners.  The other said
    	  "You didn't hear this from me, but".
    
    	- Two of the three dogs I saw running were rather small dogs,
    	  weighing less than 40 lbs!  The other was very large ~ 80lbs+.
  	  They ALL had tags!
      
    	In retrospect, possibly the very best you can hope for if you're
    a law-abiding citizen is to not shoot over the dog, but rather get
    to a phone QUICK!  Call a warden and tell him you have found a dog
    running deer and are willing to show him excactly where.  He can
    get there and sort out the tracks and either find the dog and shoot
    him himself or track the dog down to it's owner.  That part will
    be up to him, but you will have done your civic duty and not broken
    any laws.  Also, a little publicity in the press on this subject
    could help matters also, as MOST dog owners don't even know it is
    illegal for their dogs to be chasing deer.   People who don't hunt
    and who don't spend a lot of time outdoors are the WORST offenders.
    They don't know the laws and don't understand the implications (being
    fined and loss of license for a year). 
    
    It's getting closer and closer to the "Hunger Moon"....
    
    - Rob
    
    

    Do any hunting dog owners do preventative training so that the dog
    ignores deer scent?  I have heard of people in the midwest training 
    dogs to avoid snakes.
    	Linda

    To me, my dog is a member of my family, and I'll consider anyone
    taking pot shots at her while she's hunting with me the same as
    if they took shots at me. The bottom line: they better head for
    cover and hope the game warden gets to them before I do. 
    
    Now that I've blown off some dog-lover steam, the real topic of my
    reply concerns snow-mobilers who run deer. Now these are people for
    whom open season should be declared on. 
    
    My Aunt has a fairly large wooded acreage in northern Michigan with a
    couple summer homes on it. The entire area is a deer-hunters haven and
    she tells me the biggest problem they have is not with hunters but with
    snow mobilers.  Everyone up there has one and some with nothing better
    to do will run deer to death with them.  The snow gets very heavy there
    (feet - not inches) and the deer, having trouble in moving through it,
    will run until they drop.  My aunt tells me dear are found every year
    up there dead from heart-attack.  The problem is that nearly everyone
    with land in this area uses it as a summer home; consequently, the
    owners are not there to police it themselves in the winter.  Second,
    with the land being privately owned, and with so much vacented area to
    cover, the game wardens have a real problem in catching the
    perpetrators.  What makes it even more difficult is that most of the
    running occurs at night.  Third, even when they're caught its difficult
    to prove that they were actually running deer to death unless they're
    observed (which at night is near impossible) and a deer dies or drops
    as proof.  
    
    Now this is sick and easily preventable abused, and about as senseless
    and irresponsible as the bird slaughter in a previous note. Personally,
    I'd like to sit up there and some fully-jacketed or armour-piercing
    30-06 rounds take out some snow-mobiles and the leave the owners with a
    long and cold walk home.  (I wonder what the black market will yield
    for snow-mobiles with a few bullet-holes in their engines or drive
    track?)

    I talked to a logger once who told me that the game warden gave
    him permission to shoot any dog he saw chasing deer as it has become
    quite a big problem in N.H. I also talked to a game warden once
    and he told me that his biggest problem was convincing the dog owner
    that the dog(s) were chasing deer. Almost all of the owners he had
    to confront said the game warden was wrong and didn't know what
    he was talking about even after the warden had fined him. This same
    warden said he would turn his back on all shot dogs by hunters who
    had said the dog was chasing deer. I agree that the real problem
    lies with the owners. there are leash laws that nobody cares about
    and too few dog officers to handle the problem. If I had a dog and
    a hunter had shot it because it was chasing a deer I would shake
    the hunters hand and thank him. I have had a few dogs but none of
    them chased deer that I knew of. But if I ever found out one was
    I would have shot him myself. these dogs kill only for the kill
    and not for the meat. I suppose it helps nature but in the wrong
    way. I have seen quite a few dogs chasing deer in my time in the
    woods. Most of the time they were running in packs. And in most
    cases when the game warden was able to talk to the owner, the owner
    got away with murder. Maybe jail sentences for dog owners which
    have chased deer are in order or maybe a bigger fine than that of
    $55 should be put in effect. Coyotes do not kill as many deer as
    domsticated deer do.
    

    	I think you'll find that coyotes don't kill deer, unless they
    can find a fawn, or an old or badly crippled adult. They just aren't
    big enough, and seldom run in packs like wolves. Family groups
    do hunt together, but in a rather loose group, and don't use the
    relay tactics of the wolf. Most coyotes hunt small rodents, and
    insects in the summer. That's not to say they won't take advantage
    of a situation such as easy prey, but they don't usually set out
    to kill deer.
    	As far as dogs go, my dogs are like members of the family, but
    although I'd be very saddened, they should be shot if they chase
    deer of livestock. I'm not advising that anyone break the law, but
    I still feel that this is the correct response to the situation.

    re .19
    
    I think you meant "domesticated dogs"

    
    	re 320.18....
    
    	How do you feel about someone shooting your dog if it WERE chasing
    deer (game warden or not).  I don't believe that a "Hunter" would
    just shoot your dog for the heck of it.  As for the snowmibiles,
    you have a valid point as they are also a problem here in Vermont.
    Even if the snowmobile is not chasing deer, the paths created by
    snowmobiles allow easy access to the wilderness for dogs to get
    in and run deer.  In Vermont it is illegal to harass any wild animal
    of any kind in any form and that includes snowmobiles.  I suggest
    you get the description and Number of the sled you're seeing that
    are chasing the deer and call the wardens or police.  You are going
    to kill someone with that attitute.  I hope it is your emotions
    that are coming through and not your intentions.  
    	Vermont has considered deer yards "sacred ground" for the most
    part, and snowmobile trails are not normally allowed near or in
    them. 
    
    - Rob
    

    
    re .19
    
    I can understand a lot of what you are saying, but one line in your
    reply I have a hard time with, "these dogs kill only for the kill
    and not for the meat".  So hunters that kill only for the kill and
    not for the meat should be shot as well??? Trophy hunters??? I've never
    been a big fan of trophy hunting myself but your logic doesn't make
    sense to me. 
    
    This past weekend I was grouse hunting with my yellow lab, she is
    a quite aggresive dog, and a real hunter.  She catches mice for
    lunch...etc.  We happened to jump 3 deer, I heard them, didn't see
    them, she heard - maybe saw - definetly smelled them as her nose
    was going crazy.  Her immediate reaction was to take off.  I kept
    my calm and gave her a STOP command, followed by NO.  These were
    in a very stern voice, she obeyed the commands.  She would have
    chased these deer hadn't I been there.  I firmly believe it is in
    the animal's blood (dog) to chase deer, if they have that hunting
    instinct.  In note 24 some noters talk about their dogs coming upon
    deer and not paying any attention...it's probably because the dogs
    don't have the instinct...or are so well trained that they know
    the difference between rabbits, partridge, deer, squirrels etc...
    Some dogs, even though they retrieve well...point well etc, could
    really give a damn about what's around them.  
    
    My point is it all falls back on the owner, he/she has the ultimate
    responsibility.  A bored dog will do just about anything, chase
    cars, cats, deer, kids...etc.  A controlled dog will not do these
    things.  For us to shoot the dogs is not the answer, as soon as
    ole' Fido_the_deer_chaser doesn't come home, Jackass_the_owner is
    going to get another Fido...
    
    So what's the answer.....I don't know.  Maybe a state wide leash
    law for the winter months, maybe more of us getting involved as
    volunteer animal control officers, education, stiffer fines.  I am
    certainly not against the shooting of ole' Fido by the right people, 
    generally I believe we are not the right people.
    
    Kevin who_didn't_really_want_to_get_into_this 
    

ref. 22:
>    are chasing the deer and call the wardens or police.  You are going
>    to kill someone with that attitute.  I hope it is your emotions
>    that are coming through and not your intentions.  

Congratulations and thank you for seeing that this was nothing more than a
healthy release of emotion through a satirical reply on a sensitive issue (so
common in notes). To the skeptic, who failed to recognize it as you did and to
clarify my sanity, I would no more do what I said than I would say "____ you"
to a friend and then procede to do it. Satire often requires a self-defining 
indicator for the philosphically flatulent who tend to take everything too 
seriously.  Perhaps my comment about the market for used snowmobiles with 
bullet-holes was not enough for some to see through it.

..............................................................................

ref. 23:

Thank you for your excellent commentary.  There are too many people with a
myopia equating dog obedience with lack of instinct much as they're equating
hunting with disrespect for life. Fact is, instinct and obedience (as you 
pointed out) are different.  Instinct is hereditary; obedience is environment. 
Fortunately, through obedience, one can manage a dog's response to instinct
but can not suppress the instinct itself. A dog will still want to chase the 
deer but knows it shouldn't.  

I have an Alaskan Malamute, and being one of the few natural breeds, her
instinct level is very high.  She's very aggressive and, given the OK, will
chase anything on four legs.  I don't, however, let her run free and I know what
she'll do and not do. She's also very well trained and although nothing near a
hunting dog, I still take her hunting. She flushes out pheasant for me and helps
me find them. And, as any rabbit hunter knows, any dog in a heal position is
excellent for the job. (Without a dog, one just about has to step on or kick a
rabbit to get a hidding one to move. With a dog, the rabbit with smell it and
be on the move at what always seems to be the perfect shooting distance.) 

So yes, my dog will chase deer - if I let her (although being well fed and not
very fast, will run anything for only a block or two and then quit). She can be
quite wild, and her natural hunting instinct level is very high; but anyone to
tell me she's untrained is all wet.  I have a wall of trophys (she was the
nation's #1 obedience Alaskan Malamute in 1985) to prove it.
    
$ SOAPBOX OFF    

And Kevin, sounds like you have a good dog! Unless well-trained, most
aggressive, high-instinct dogs, hear and respond to nothing after off on
the four-legged chase.

Lou, who's_now_out_of_this_discussion_after_making_enough_enemies