Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    I'VE HEARD MIXED MESSAGES ON CALLING DEER,  I'VE TALKED WITH PEOPLE
    THAT HAVE CALLED BUCKS UP TO WITHIN YARDS AND SWEAR THATS THE ONLY WAY
    TO GET 'EM CLOSE.  I BROUGHT A GRUNT DEER CALL WITH ME LAST YEAR TO TRY
    AND I HAD A DOE AND A COUPLE FAWN'S WALK BY SO I USED IT.  THEY DIDN'T
    EVEN LIFT THEIR HEADS AND THEY WALKED WITHIN 20 YARDS.  I USED THE
    THING FOR SEVERAL HOURS AND DECIDED TO GET OFF MY STAND AND PUSH THIS
    SMALL SWAMP THAT WASN'T MORE THAN 200 YARDS AWAY AND JUMPED A BUCK.  HE
    HAD TO OF HEARD MY GRUNT CALLS BUT COULD CARE LESS. I'VE ALSO TRIED
    CALLING FOR MOOSE IN ALASKA AND HAD NO SUCCESS.  BUT IT MAY ALL BE FROM
    LACK OF EXPIERENCE ALSO.  ALL OF THE DEER I HAVE SHOT HAVE BEEN FROM
    PLACING MY SELF IN THE BEST LOCATION AND WAITING.  I'M THINKING ABOUT
    TRYING RATTLING SOMETIME.  BUT I THINK THE BEST STRATAGY IS TO FIND
    OUT WHAT TRAILS THEIR USING THEN SIT AND WAIT AND WAIT AND WAIT.
    

    
    
    RE :-1
    
      Please use Mixed case when writing notes as it is easier to read and
    all capitol letters is considered SHOUTING! 
    
    
    
    Thanks
    Moderator

    Well I can verify the bugling/coe calling for Elk works, but during
    Colorado rifle season there is not much of a chance. Unless there is
    a late rut and you go first season. With all the rain in the high
    country this year, it won't be a late rut.
    
    Cow elk calls are good any season. Don't necessarily bring them in
    during rifle seasons, but your less apt to scare them off.
    
    If you want to talk with the elk - go bow or muzzle loading.
    
    I've heard tell that using preditor calls for deer work, you know
    the dieing rabbit calls. I can not verify this, but some people I
    know swear by it.
    
    >>>--------> (this year it's back to the bow for me)
    
    Mark

    LAst year my brother and I started rattling for deer and he had greater
    success than I did. I don't think it will work all the time but
    conditions have to be right, meaning coinciding with the height of the
    rut and so forth. In 1988 when I was last out west my buddy was bugling
    for elk and he had them bugling back to him. It was exciting. He had
    them within 200 yards of our camp but it was at night, full moon and
    they were heavy into their rut. This year I plan on doing more rattling
    and hopefully it will pay off. 
    							bret

    I've had good results rattling, but last year I combined rattling and
    grunt calls and seemed to get no results.  It could have been poor
    usage of the grunt call or the deer just didn't believe that I was a 
    doe/buck or combination of the two...
    
    Ray
    

 American hunter had a great article on cow talk sometime ago
(89 or 90 ?). It said it will often interest a bull that already
has a few cows and won't leave them with conventional calling.
This doesn't help much during rifle season though. But... one
hunter friend of mine says he settled down a spooked bull 3 or
4 times last year (noise in wood spooked, did call, would stop,
spook again...etc.). AH said that cows call all year round.
Who knows you might get a cow or bull loner that is looking to 
be a little more socialable. I took a cow talk with me last year
and will continue to. Who knows, it may stop a slightly spooked bull
or cow (that hasn't determined what creature made some noise) long
enought to get a clean shot.


chuck

    	I have done a lot of calling of all kinds.  In my opinion, the
    difference between calling working and calling not working is all
    dependent upon how good the caller is and how well the caller knows the
    game.  It's kind of like trying to communicate with someone in a
    foreign language,  you need to know what each word means, in what order
    to place the words, what facial expressions to make and when, etc.  
    
    	There are sometimes very subtle changes in the sounds that may mean
    the difference between saying "Hi" and "Alert, get out of here, there
    is one of those funny things on two legs that smell funny and make loud
    noises".  It's like hearing a new language, at first it all sounds the
    same to you, but after a while you can notice differences in sounds and
    eventually tell the difference between words.  Well all of that come
    from experience.  The point being, you need to get out and really study
    the animals and explore new ways of calling.  
    
    	I first started calling for coyotes.  Well it took me 3-4 months of
    calling before I called in my first coyote.  All the while I thought I
    was calling just like my experienced friend, but I wasn't.  He would
    make a quivery sound, well when I tried to figure out how he did it I
    discovered that if I moved the open reed call in and out of my mouth
    slightly I could make a sound "like" his.  Guess what, he made his
    quivery sound by regulating the pulses of breath using his diaphragm.
    So what is the difference if they both quivered you ask...His sound hit 
    the same note as he quivered, but my quivery played a range of notes. 
    A subtle difference in sound, but the animals could tell the difference 
    all too well.  
    	
    	There is a lot to calling.  How long do you call, what tempo
    (pace), low or high notes, when do you pause and how often, etc.
    Let me tell you this, every animal is different.  You need to do a
    complete study on each type of animal that you try to call in.  
    
    	As to the question that is being asked here, can you call in Elk
    and Deer?  I would have to give a very strong YES.  I have call in both 
    sexes of many types of animals.  By the way, the sex of the animal that
    you are trying to call for may make another difference in that way you
    call (mostly for Deer, Elk, Antelope and Moose...and may be others).
    I have also called in many Owls, Hawks, Ravens, Valtures, Ducks, Geese, etc.
    I have called in Elk, Deer, Antelope, Bear, Coyote, Mountain Lion, Fox,
    Turkey, and other hunters (they thought I was an Elk until I played a
    song on my call).  Needless to say, like anything else with hunting you
    just need to be patient, know the game and buy one of everything before
    you go.  I have a call box that needs a pack horse to transport it
    through the woods.  
    
    	Another way to help you to get started is to go to a seminar on
    calling or rent a video tape.  Just remember like anything else,
    everyone has their own way to do it.  So, keep open minded, listen to
    everyone's instructions, try them all, combine them and when you find
    out what works...use that, but keep trying new things -- that's how you
    get better or find ways of calling a different animal into your stand
    (that's how I called in my first Lion, I was calling for Bear and
    changed my pace and tone).  
    
    	If you every get a chance to go see Wayne Carlton give a talk on
    calling, go listen to him!  I've known Wayne for about five years now.
    He is a very nice person and a great speaker.  You can learn a lot from 
    his talks and at the same time you will be very entertained (he is very 
    funny).  He also makes many good calls.  He sells them in hunting
    stores all across the country and Canada.  You can also find his adds
    in the magazines.  Or get in touch with me and I'll give you his phone
    number and address.  He has a few tapes on calling and hunting, also. 
    Last year he started selling a tape of his Archery British Columbia
    Moose hunt, he took a new world record.  Wayne also puts a lot back
    into the sport and the resource.  He, with 16 others, started the
    Turkey Federation.  He also does stuff (donations, talks, etc.) for the
    other groups.  He gives many talks for the Rocky Mountain Elk
    Foundation, a group that I have strong ties to.  
    
    	Any way, if you would like to talk more about calling, just give me
    a call (DTN 551-5797) or send me a message (DESERT::HORN)
    
    Good Luck and Have Fun! 

    Will;
    
    Like Mark Waters stated;  Calling does work, I've seen it.  But,
    sense your hunting the rifles seasons, it would have to be a real
    late rut for calling to have any effects.  And with all this rain,
    I doubt it'll anything but late.
    
    
    Jeff

I haven't tried it myself, but all the so-called experts claim that the
cow call is the way to go for elk.  As I understand it, the bull call
only works during the rut, but the cow call is supposed to work all the
time.

I might try it myself, this year.

Jerry

	Will, ask Jim Pedersen to show you the tape he made last year.
	He called several bulls and a cow in at the same time and has
	about 20 minutes of footage.  

	It was 5 Bulls(4 5pt. and 1 6pt.) and 1 cow. ;^)
I will bring the tape in tomorrow.  2 weeks 'till archery season open and I'm
already losing sleep.

	Jim (who saw 24 bulls in 1 herd last weekend, including a 7X7)

    Thanks for all the information on Elk calling.
    
    Thanks,
    Will

    
    	Fur-Fish-Game has a monthly column devoted to game calling.

    Jim,  have you called bulls in with the cow call in the later season?
    And after who borrows your tape, may please borrow it?  
    
    Jeff

	I have never hunted ELK after archery seacon, but cow talk should calm 
them down when you surprise a herd in the timber.  I have called cows, spikes 
and mature bulls with cow talk after spooking them from walking noise.  If 
they see of smell you, it's a different story.
	I should have the tape back tomorrow - so come by and pick it up.
cx03-2j2.

	Jim

    When elk are in a herd, the one in charge is a cow.  She usually is the
    oldest, and some of the bulls in that herd may be hers.  These are the
    immature bulls that have not got heavy into rutting yet.  The cow call
    will get the attention of the whole herd.  I've had a herd stop while
    at a full run to check out the noise.  I think it confuses them for a
    short time, but at this time I was able to get a spike out of the
    bunch.  I have never used the call to try to bring an animal in.
    
    Note:  This is during rifle season and the bulls are not in the rut.
    During the rut, all bets are off.
    
    

    I've used just a cow call to bring a 4x4 bull in 2 years ago. Since then
    I bugle to locate a bull and then cow call from there with very very few
    bugles. It kind of makes the bull think your in his herd.
    
    I was sitting on the edge of a medow and in the woods cows were
    walking past me. I entered the woods about 25 yards and just
    cow called. Before long this 4x4 walked up and by the time 
    he was in a clearing enough to shoot he was 5 yards out and we were
    looking face-to-face. Of course when I drew he was gone.
    
    I've found that just bugling a herd bull will make him pack up the
    cows and walk off. Then you have to stay on them until he gets really
    mad and comes to run you off. Which is about 2-5 miles worth of hard
    trucken in some of the worst crap they can put you through. Doing this
    though you have to watch for cows that stays behind.
    
    If you don't scare off the herd bull or lead cow there is a real good
    chance the herd will still be around. I scared about 10 cows once out
    of a large herd and after a short time the herd regrouped and kept
    going, with the bull still bugling away.
    
    I've been bow/muzzle loading for three years now, this will be the
    forth. You just got to go out at try. After a while you'll be able to 
    somewhat predict where a bull will come in and when he'll keep walking.
    But then again, as soon as you get it down, one will always do the
    unexpected.
    
    Full of Bugle Stories.
    Mark
    
    PS. All you Colorado Bow and Muzzle Loader - I think this cold weather
    is going to start the elk in the rut early this year. What do ya
    think ? I know it will be a bit nip at 10,000 in a month FROM TODAY !

    
    Mark,
    
    	I *heard* that Breckenridge received some snow already.
    	Breckenridge is at about 8500-9000 ft. in elevation.  I
    	think you're gonna get wet! :^)
    
    Clay

I have a question based on an observation which may not be accurate.
No flames, please.

I have never tried calling elk, but have read a great deal about it.
For years, bugling for bulls was the only calling method you ever heard
of.  Then, about 5 years ago ( or so it seems), someone started writing
about using the cow/calf calls and now that seems to be all the rage.
Also, it seems that some writers were claiming that bugling for bulls
was losing some of its effectiveness because it had been done for so
long, and was done poorly by so many hunters, that the big bulls were
not responding.  I really don't know if it's a case of over-bugling,
poor bugling, or just a mis-perception on my part.

Anyway, here's my question.  Based on the assumption that bugling is
not as effective as it used to be because the elk have figured it out,
will cow/calf calling become less effective over the years?  Will the
elk who readily respond to this get "culled out", and leave mostly
those who don't have the particular genetic traits which would
cause them to respond to these calls?

I really don't have an opinion on this, but do wonder.

Jerry

    They say this same thing about calling Turkey's. I don't believe
    a bit of it. I think it more of as the season goes on and bulls
    get called in and encounter a hunter they will be less likely
    to come in, but I still believe you can get them to answer.
    
     If your calling is real-real bad a bull won't bugle back. I've heard
    em bugle back to a flute and wistle before. If you know how to bugle
    somewhat they'll answer, during the right time of year. But, it is best
    to be as real to life as you can.
    
    My $.02
    Mark

	I had an interesting outing this past weekend while scouting for 
Elk.  My hunting partner, Dave, and I were easing thru the timber scouting a
new area, when I saw what appeared to be the body of an elk.  It was feeding
just over a little rise, so all I could see was a few inches of the back. I
wispered to Dave and pointed out the patch of tan.  As we watched, we saw an
antler bobbing up and down as he fed.  Dave pulled out his cow call, pointed
the grunt tube behind us and gave little churp.  The bull almost got whiplash 
as his head flew up.  He took a couple of steps toward us and and
stopped with his head behind a large pine.  Dave and I slowly knelt to our 
knees, then all the way down, so we were laying on the ground with our heads 
up.  One more soft churp on the cow call and the bull began a slow walk 
around the tree.  We were surprised to see he had 5 even points per side, 
plus a fork on one of his right eye guards. From there he angled across in
front of us to our right at about 25 yards.  Without stopping, he turned right
towards us and keep coming.  At 20 feet he stopped and peered over us for the
cows he had heard. Twice he urinated on his belly as he searched for the
ladies. After what seemed like forever (about 40 seconds) he look down at us. 
There we were, not even a branch between us.  He looked at us and we looked at
him.  Finally, he jumped straight back the way he had come, then looked back
to see if anything was moving.  He still wanted to find the cows and starting
walking back toward us again!  The approach of a second bull, a 5x5, got his 
attention and they walked on down the hill away from us.  I may have to go 
see my doctor and get some sleeping pills.  I wasn't able sleep much last week,
but after that and only 4 days to go until archery season opens, I may not get
any sleep this week.

	Wish you all could have been there.  What a rush!

	Jim (in FULL rut) Pedersen

    Jim, great story..I wish I would have been there....Keep em' coming..
    
    Jeff