Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    Boy you really like to cause trouble don't you (smiley face here).
    
    I am by no means a ballistics expert, but I did read the famous
    note in the firearms file that you refer to, and all the replies,
    (I had nothing to do one week).
    
    I personally use a .30-06, this was chosen because it is what is
    recommended by the people I hunt with and it can be loaded up/down
    to handle a wide variety of game.  Though personally I have never
    shot a deer with it, I have seen the tail end of the action it 
    produces and it does a very good job for whitetails.
    
    From the limited knowledge I have about the 243 and similar 
    cartridges I would say, yes they are fine for deer, in the hands
    of an experienced shot, buck fever or other conditions may make
    the less experienced hunter miss the exact target area, hence the
    need for a little extra power.
    
    I would guess that one of the attractions that Grits Gresham had
    in mind for the beginner and the .243 was recoil.  If a beginner
    starts with a "boomer" cartridge, like a .30-06 he may get the flinches
    because of the fear of recoil. In this case I would say yes maybe
    he should shoot a .243, but move up to a heavier cartridge before
    deer season.
    
    I do not know ballistically the comparison between any gun and a
    .30-30 but I have talked with a number of people who swear by them
    and a few who have been using them from the start of their hunting.
    They love them.
    
    As a quick answer, No a .30-06 is not to much for a deer, but a
    .243 is not to little, in the hands of a good shot.
    
    --Bob
    

    Heck, this debate (what rifle to use for deer) will never die!
    
    Read Jim Carmichel's book "The Modern Rifle". There is definitely
    two trains of thought when talking about what to start a beginner
    off on. On one side we have the "Use something more powerful so
    that if the shot is less than perfect it'll still drop the deer
    dead". Then on the other side is the "Use a more HITTABLE cartridge,
    one that you don't grit your teeth, turn your head, and flinch with".
    
    Now, I'll state right off that recoil isn't a factor with myself
    when I choose a deer rifle. In fact, the rifles I use combine all
    the things I consider important. Ease of carry, *adequate* power,
    and a little nostalgia thrown in for good luck! For me that means
    that a scoped bolt gun in 30-06 or bigger for whitetails is out.
    BUT, I did see a video last night that would change my choice of
    deer gun should I ever get the chance to hunt in this particular
    spot. It's Alberta Canada. Wide open spaces and BIGGGG whitetails.
    Here, YES a 30-06/300mag with a scope is a nessesity! BUT this is
    also a "highly specialized/only open to the very lucky or very well-
    to-do crowd" type of hunting situation. The deer here that are taken
    are AS A RULE well over 200 lbs, and a fair number of them exceed
    300 lbs! To take long shots at these deer with a 243 is unacceptable
    in my opinion.
    
    Which brings me to my argument. Use what hits best for you. If it's
    a 243 that you hit best with, then use that! You DON'T in my opinion
    have to be an expert to use a 243, 25-06, 6mm Remington. All you
    have to do is shoot it comfortably and with good accuracy. If you
    can't do that with a 30-06 then go to a less punishing caliber.
    
    I wouldn't go any lower than the 243 though...
    
    
    Joe

    Fra,
    
    I haven't read the article yet, but is there any mention of what
    kind of country he suggests the use of these guns?
    
    I think that .30-30 is plenty for Maine type hunting.  I carry mine
    a lot of the time.  I don't have a .243, but I have friends that
    just think they are the greatest.
    
    I probably wouldn't carry my .30-30 someplace where I expected to
    get a long shot (read that greater than 100-150 yards).
    
    After reflecting on the .30-06 question for a year, I would say
    that .30-06 may not be too much for deer, but it is not necessary.
    I will be carrying a .308 a lot this year, however, and that is
    approaching .30-06.   I guess that makes me a bit of a hypocrit,
    but I like the gun and feel like carrying it through the woods.
    I think that's really how 85% of the people decide what they want
    to hunt with if the selection of guns to choose from is adequate
    for the type of hunting intended.
    
    Brett.

    The article never mentioned anything about the type of terrain,
    but it did say these particular calibers would allow for longer
    shots, no mention of what he thought these ranges should be except
    the 30-30 (under 150 yds).  As someone mentioned previously, recoil
    probably had alot to do with his choices for a beginner, and presumably
    with enough preseason practice, a beginner could become proficient
    enough to hunt with it. But you see alot of times where people will
    buy a box of shells, fire half of them to "sight in the gun" and
    save the remainder for the season... If this is the case, there
    is no way a beginner should be hunting deer with these type of
    calibers.
    
    I happen to love the 243/6mm rounds and have seen alot of deer taken
    with both, alot of deer!!! However these rifles were in the hands
    of very experienced hunters, with lots of time spent practicing and 
    shooting at crows/chucks, in the hands of greenhorns... not so sure!!!
    
    Now while I personally don't believe 30-06 is too much for deer,
    I wouldn't use one cause I think there are alot of other calibers
    out there which can also do the job just as proficiently providing
    your using the correct bullet designed for deer sized game. There
    are plenty of excellent "deer" calibers out there, (243, 6mm, 25-06,
    270, 280, 7mm mag, 308, 30-06 just to name a few) (and alot of others 
    in between). Hell, I'd love to drop one using a 300 H&H, but I can't 
    find a manufacturer which offers one. 
    
    I'm currently hunting with a custom built 270 bolt, love it, and will
    hunt with it forever, but I got a hankering to take my father-in-laws 
    6mm out this year and watch it do its stuff. 
    
    Now all this talk of flat shooting little buggers is fine but in
    some of the real thick cover they just don't cut the mustard and
    the big boomers are definately necessary (your 30-30's, 35 rem's,
    45-70's... etc) in a fast handling carbine where very close shots
    are all your gonna get... these are my opinions, they do not
    necessarily represent the views of this station... ;^)
    
    Fra
    

    
    Two things.
    
    #1  It should be apparent to most of you by now that it doesn't
    necessarily take intelligence, or any real knowledge of the subject to
    write for magazines, papers, TV, etc.  Many of our so-called writing
    experts are no more informed than we are, and do most of their writing
    to try to justify their way of thinking how something will work, react,
    etc., versus actual well thought out conclusions based on many
    experiences and observations.
    
    #2  When are you people going to realize that the ideal close range
    deer rifle is a 458 Winchester, and a 340 Weatherby for long range :-).
    
    Roy...
    
    P.S.  I still contend that the larger diameter bullets with a length of at
    least 2 diameters long, moving at a moderate to high velocity from an
    accurate firearm are always better than their smaller cousins.
    

    re .5
    
    Roy,
    
    After reading the notes file today and noticing that almost all replies
    were from you and paying attention to what you said.... I get the
    impression that you are "stirring the pot" to see what comes to the
    top. I could be wrong however. If I am I appologize. If I am correct
    then please shut the f*** up.
    
    Harvey
    

    RE: .6
    
    still laughing!!!

    re .6
    
      I kinda snickered on that one too.... BUT! ...
    
      Hey!, Leave old Roy alone! I like reading his notes. Sometimes
    they're entertaining, and sometimes I'd like to reach through the
    screen, find his neck in the murk, and strangle him!!! :-) :-)
    
      It's not too often that Roy puts " :-) " smiley faces on his replies,
    so take it easy, alright?!?
    
      Keep on noting there Roy !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I'm serious!!!)
    
    Joe

    Heck I like it when someone stirs the pot.  Beats listening to someone
    whine.
    
    Jeff (who never tried rabbit hunting 8*))

>>         <<< Note 59.6 by MUTT::HAMRICK "The Great White Rabbit ..." >>>

>>    top. I could be wrong however. If I am I appologize. If I am correct
>>    then please shut the f*** up.
    
    Harvey,

	You'd be alright if you would just speak your mind every now
	and then.	;-)

    Jerry

    
    I may be out of place here, but what the heck.
    
    Roy seems to be a very knowledgable person when it comes to
    guns/ballistics/hunting etc. I seem to recall seeing a fulton a couple
    of years ago (pre-hunting notesfile days) in the firearms 
    conference. If I recall right, and it is the same guy, he never was
    afraid to say what he thought even when it went against the popular
    opinion. Seems his knowledge was based on practice and experience
    rather than book knowledge.
    
    I for one am glad to see Roy back, gives a different opinion and he
    isn't afraid to say what he thinks just because it may piss someone
    off.
    
    I think he is just catching up on notes, he seems to be fairly new to
    this conference so he is cruising old notes and adding his opinion.
    
    go for it Roy.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    Yep, I've just been cruising around seeing what others had to say,
    whether it be recent or old notes, and throwing in my two cents.
    
    I don't apologize if I appear to sometimes be "trying to stir things
    up" since in some cases that is exactly what I'm trying to do. 
    However, in most cases I'm just entering my views.  If you find these
    views not worth reading or unacceptable to you, then simply type
    "N N <return>". 
    
    Roy...

    
    Appologies to all,
    
    I forgot the smiley on my reply. Didn't mean to start anything or pi$$
    anyone off. It just happened to be one of THOSE days for me, but my
    reply was intended to be tongue in cheek. I also like some of Roy's
    replies and others just make me want to scream. But that is part of
    what makes me keep coming back to this notes file. I like the diversity
    in here. We will NEVER all agree about everything. But what the hell we
    will all get by anyway. By all means Roy KEEP NOTING. It sounds as if I
    may be able to learn something from you.
    
    Harvey(Redder face then normal)
    

    So what gives, Roy?
    
    I haven't seen any "Roy Fulton originals" since 1987.  In 1988 I
    thought you were mad and had decided not to note in the "good"
    notefiles.  In 1989 I was wondering if you were just really busy.  
    In 1990 I began to wonder if you were ill.  In 1991 I figured you must
    have applied for the package.
    
    Where've you been for 5 years?
    
    /brett
    
    p.s. :-)

    
    Busy, broke, and quietly just waiting for the "let's start over with
    only the original Constitution and Bill of Rights" revolution to commence.
    
    It's hard to be original with so many topics already discussed.
    
    Roy...