Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    My thoughts on this subject would have to agree with you. If the club
    is private then state regulations would not apply (IMHO). To give an
    example, if you went to one of these bird hunting preserves you don't
    need a license and your paying for the birds which you already doing as
    part of your club dues. The only catch would be the technicality of a
    possesion limit in your freezer. If your home was ever searched (which
    in 99.9% of our cases wouldn't happen) you may be written up for more
    birds than what the law reads. This happened to a couple of poachers
    caught in N.H. for taking a deer/moose (can't remember which) illegally
    and when they searched the house they had a huge amount of trout. A
    call to your State Fish & Game Dept. would really clear things up.
    
    
                                                       Guy
    

    Does your club tag your birds?  Any preserve that I have shot at
    insists on tagging the birds before you leave.  This covers you for
    the situation you described.  The tags are metal bands.  If there
    not tagged I don't know how you could prove that they were shot on
    club property vs public land.
    
    Jeff 

    re.1 as far as someone coming in and searching my freezer that wouldn't
    help them much, I love the taste of game so much not to many birds
    make it to the freezer.
     
    Re.2  no my club doesn't tag the birds, one way I have made sure that 
    I dont have 3 birds on me is a quick stop home, I live 5 min from my club
    which is great for those hunts early in the AM after they stock the
    night before and before work.
        
    Duff

    Duff,
    
    Just to C.Y.A; See if the club can give you a reciept of sorts; So
    that if you are ever checked, you have proof that the birds are legal.
    
    
    Jeff

    but then again, if everyone ran home and dropped off a few birds and
    went back out hunting...
    
    think about it...

    
    	Unless your club is tagging the birds for you, I believe
    a warden questioning the possesion of the birds would count 
    them towards your daily bag limit. 
    
    	Ethically, its your call. Legally, I think you'd be in the
    wrong if you got caught doing what you're doing.
    
    dave 
    
    Just as an aside, and this has been discussed in other notes; It 
    is up to us to regulate and govern ourseleves especially when the
    issue of SEASON limits come to light. I can't begin to count the 
    number of times I've heard guys boasting of getting 15-20 birds
    a season off the WMAs. Is this wrong ??? Should we stop hunting
    when we've shot our six bird season limit ??

    
>    Just as an aside, and this has been discussed in other notes; It 
>    is up to us to regulate and govern ourseleves especially when the
>    issue of SEASON limits come to light. I can't begin to count the 
>    number of times I've heard guys boasting of getting 15-20 birds
>    a season off the WMAs. Is this wrong ??? Should we stop hunting
>    when we've shot our six bird season limit ??

	Dave, in my mind: absolutely! I think everybody would agree
	that it would be dead wrong (apart from the legal aspects of 
	poaching etc) to take more big game than what was on your
	license (e.g. 2 der when only one was allowed). Why bird season
	limits should be treated differently, I don't see.

	All season limits (big game, small game ...) have been put
	into effect because statistically a limit has been established
	that it is safe to harvest of a particular species. Disregarding
	the possibility of political influence, the system of limits
	has been a central part in the regeneration of US wild game
	populations since early 20'th century - one of the biggest success
	stories in conservation in the world. Why fool around with something
	that works?

							- Mike

    I don't want to make this reply to strong. I mean my flame is not
    on and I will type in a unemotional low voice.
    
    What we are discussing is against the law as a few noter pointed out
    and IMO find it difficult that we can rationalize this.
    
    first off, when your club releases the birds they become
    property of the state. They are the state property even when
    they are on club property.. Also there are no Garantees that
    birds you shot that morning were club stocked birds, wild birds
    or state stocked birds.
    
    If the birds were taged before releasing with a metal band it would
    still make no difference.
    
    The club would need to petition the state some how to become a 
    "License" hunting preserve then and only then would the state
    regulation change.
    
    Those birds fall under all state Game Laws...
    
    That is some of the legal aspect of it.
    
    Here comes the opinion on the ethics.
    
    It is my opinion that this is unethical because it is against the LAW.
    
    It's pretty straight forward if you ask me.
    
    If I were teaching my son or daughter or anyone else for that matter
    this is exactly the position I would take so I can't see compromizing
    it .
    
    Beleive me I am not pure. I have made mistakes. ( were're talking
    Game laws here ) I would agree that temtation and rationzation
    often take place and when I was younger may have rationalized the
    situation and shrugged it off..
    
    As I get older I perceive things differently...I do not expect
    any one to live by my ethics I hope to only to have a few of you
    stop and ponder your position.
    
    That's all.
    
    Sincerely,
    Bear

    Bear,  very well said...
    
    Fra

    Man, I feel sorry for you folks in the East.  I guess this topic really
    gives me more appreciation for what I have in the Midwest.  I do all
    of my pheasant hunting in Iowa.  They have a three bird daily limit
    with a Possession limit of 6.  I have never heard of a season limit
    when it comes to upland birds.  
    
    Just some stats Iowa's harvest.  1990's harvest was in excess of
    1.2 million pheasant.  In the region of the state where I hunt,
    there are no hunting clubs, so I would have to guess that for
    the most part, this number is for wild birds.  Just to compare
    the data to the two other pheasant states, South Dakota and Kansas,
    they harvested about 800 to 900 thousand pheasants.
    

    re.10 That's because you have native birds. Here in Mass. there's a 
    debate over whether there even are any 'native' birds. Virtually all
    pheasant are stocked on a put-and-take basis. This forces us to 
    have tight limits. 
    
    Every state and region has it's blessings. 

    Boy you guys love to get on your high horse and jump on people
    in this conferance at times. I posed the question to ask for your 
    opinion and if it was illegal, not for you to judge anyones ethics.
    When someone has a question I always thought here is a good
    place to to start. I would think that we would want as many people to 
    participate in this conference as possible, but if the "new hunter"
    gets jumped on by you EXPERTS someday you will be talking between
    yourselves..
    
    Everyone I talked to before I was questioned about this thought the way
    I do (including an officer at mt club ). Since I just didn't say to
    them noway the birds at the club are free and I will take as many as
    a want, I looked into it more so my ethics should not be questioned.
    
    By reading the replys so far it seems as though we have 2 different
    interpretation, so I call the Ma. F&G department 3 times today to see
    what they had to say. I got 3 different answers...
    
    1st person says he was not sure and it is not written down, but he thought
    the only problem might come from having more than 2 birds on you at one
    time and he said it would be up to the wardens interpretation ( oh
    thats great) on the law. He also said that most warden don't know all
    the laws that well anyway. I know that for sure, one time out last year
    I was hunting a state stocked area with an orange hat and a red vest,
    she told me I was illegal because I didn't have enough orange on, i
    went back to my car got the abstacts and showed her the law. Now we 
    are suppose to take there word as law??
    
    2nd person didn't know for sure but thought that it might come under
    the same rules as a shooting preserve.
    
    3rd person says it is against the law, but this person must have been 
    having a bad day because he sounded like a recording, he just didn't
    want to talk. Even though he talk in more legal mumble jumble than 
    the other 2. 
    
    Some of the things I brought up to the F&G people was things like..
    
    What if I went out and bought 2 birds to train my dog with in the
    backyard and the ended up in the freezer, would they be part of 
    my yearly bag?? Reason why I asked them that was because ( as one reply
    stated) I released them so now are they part of the states program.
    Good question was 2 of their answers the 3rd guy gave me the recording.
    
    What about the guy who belongs to more than 1 hunting club and both of
    the clubs stock, does that mean if he goes to one club and gets 2 birds
    he can't go after birds he paid for (dues) at the other club?? Same
    answers 2 good question 1 recording
    
    I always thought that if I had more than 3 birds on me and a warden 
    saw this it might be a sticky situation, thats why I said a quick stop
    home to drop off birds, not because I wanted to get away with something
    but to avoid a situation I wouldn't be able to prove to the warden that
    I got the birds at my club.
    
    I'm not sure of this but I believe there is a club in Millis ?? or
    someplace that has a 3 bird a day limit and if I understand this 
    correctly it is a club not a perserve , so why is that. 
    
    So in conclusion to my long winded note is..I'm still not sure what the
    real law is. But I will know for sure before next season.
    
    
    Duff 

    
    Don't know if its any help, but..
    
    I was in NC hunting deer a few years ago. The lodge owner and his son
    never hunted on the lodge land (they had problems in the past when they
    would get a bigger deer than a client adn the client would complain
    they got the good stand and the client got the bad one), so they
    only hunted at there club.
    
    The club was bound be state F&G laws, it was simply private property
    and you had to be a member to hunt it. 
    
    If you extrapolate (big jump possibly) to your club, then if you 
    get 2 birds at the club, then you are done for the day.
    
    --Bob
    

    Duff,
    
    I don't think anyone is jumping down your throat, or that were stepping
    on our high horses...  you asked for opinions and people here are more
    than happy to give em... ;^)
    
    It's a touchy subject and people have at some point have ran into this
    problem with others who regardless of game laws do as they please...
    
    To myself and a lot of others here, daily bag limit is a pretty
    concrete thing... 3 per day, regardless of where you take em...
    
    Fra

    I can see where Duff is coming from, sort of;  I have never had
    the privilage of hunting the East Coast, so, these thoughts are purely
    based on my expierence in Colorado.  I have purchased live birds
    (pheasant) out of season/hunting.  And have used them to train my dog,
    which was also out of season.
    
    I have purchaced "left over" birds, from pheasant clubs;  Again out of
    season.  These birds are raised from incubation in a private 
    facility, fed, shelted...ETC.;  They are in effect "livestock".  
    
    The point that I am trying to make is that "here",  as long as I
    have something that indicates that the birds I'm using are coming
    from a "private" organization for private use, well it is ok.
    
    Whats a real hoot;  I called the Colo. Div. of Wildlife and told them
    I had several grown adult Pheasant, and wanted to release them on state
    land;  In hopes they would reproduce.  I was told not to do it for 
    a multitude of reasons.  So, the dog got a REAL good work out.
    
    I'm not sure I made the point that I started out to;  Oh well..It's
    late and I'm tired.
    
    
    Jeff

    I tried to word my reply purposely so you would not be
    offended. I failed...I am sorry.
    
    I was sincerely tring to give the best advice I could.
    
    What everyone has to be real careful of even though every
    state is similar every state is different.
    
    I presently live in N.H. but have lived 10 years in MASS.
    I still beleive what I wrote is over 90% correct.
    
    Most states have just about cover all the what if's . Please
    find someone who knows the laws well.
    
    I am in a very gentlemanly way trying to dissagree. I am not all
    high an might and do not have a I am better than you attitude.
    
    I would bet you , If you call up 3 co's with more that 12 years
    experience that their answers will not be far apart and will
    not be all that different from my previous reply.
    
    as far the what if's,, I think you will find those are covered
    with special permits or are also against the LAW.
    
    For instance I beleive in MAss it is against the law to be
    in posesion of a wild animal.. I am pretty sure this applies to
    Raccoons, Halks etc. there may be exceptions but I beleive
    permits are needed.. Now does phesants fall under the catagorie
    "wild Bird/ wild animal" ... Not sure....
    
    Perhaps the purchasing of a couple phesants for dog training
    when it comes to shooting the bird is also against the law  when
    not in season or
    also needs a permit.....not sure...
    
    I am no expert.  If i seemed hi and mighty I am sorry. If I
    am disliked because I didn't agree well I guess I shouldn't
    say any more.....
    
    Good Hunting and my your covers be filled with birds.
    
    Bear  
    
    
    
    
    

    In the last reply It occured to be that perhaps I should
    have said.
    
    I beleive it against the law to be posseion of a "live" wild
    animal such as "live" Racoons or "live" halks.
    
    To posess one live halk may require permit... To be in posseion
    of a live phesant may require permit...
    
    bear

    
re: .1
    	A clarification of shooting preserves..... In Mass and Rhode 
        Island, a valid hunting license for that state IS required.    
    	In the case of Rhode Island, they offer a one day permit at
    	a minimal fee.
    
RE: buying a couple pheasant, releasing them for training my dog, ending
    up in the freezer.
    
    	In Mass., you can not LEGALLY possess live game birds, especially
        Ringneck Pheasant without the proper permits. Anyone licensed 
    	to sell game birds places themselves in jeopardy by selling 
    	those game birds to anybody without the proper permits.    
    	
        In Mass., you may LEGALLY possess Quail for the sole purpose of
        training dogs, both out of season and in season, IF you file for
        and are granted a Class 8 Propogator's Permit (?). This permit
        allows you to maintain, release and recapture QUAIL for the sole
        purpose of training dogs. HOWEVER, these or any 'game' bird MAY NOT
        be shot out of season. That is the reason most dog trainers use
    	pigeons in training, which is still a 'gray area' in the
        interpretation of the law in Mass.
    
        I know NH and Maine, do have more leniant regulations governing the
        training of dogs, the posession of and ability to kill game birds while
        training dogs. I know NH requires permit(s), not sure about Maine.

	I think the issue here is semantics.... Are we using Hunting Club/Hunting
	Preserve and Sportsmen's Club similarly ??  This seems as if it's
	the issue....


	IF you are hunting on a "Private" "Hunting Club or Preserve" then your
	limits are not included with season limits because a Hunting Club or
	Preserve has an "extended" season. Here in the East it's usually
	Sept 15 - Apr 15...  They also have much more generous daily limits. ;-)
	However if your Club is a Sportsmen's Club and you are open to the public, 
	your limits are the same as your state limit.... Now I'm talking about 
	"most" New England states here, maybe in other parts of the country 
	it's different, but I believe that possibly the same holds true...

	It would be no different than if you released deer or any other game
	animal. I wouldn't expect to get two deer from my local Sportsman's Club
	property and then get two from a Wildlife Management Area (MA limits).

	
	I hope this straightens out the issue at hand?


					~Mike~

     Most states will not allow the average person to release game birds 
    into the wild.  The reason for this is that they don't want disease 
    introduced to the native population.  This is why th F&G people inspect
    your pens before granting a permit to propogate.  One of the largest 
    contributors to disease in pheasants is overcrowding in the flight
    pens.  The F&G will inspect your facilities and grant a permit for how
    many birds they feel you can legitimately keep in the pen.
     Any legitimate shooting preserve I have shot at tags there birds.  I
    know that some of the sportsmans clubs use to release there own birds
    for there members.  Alot of these clubs got the birds from the state.
    These should count on your daily and seasonal bag.  I just called the 
    Division.  If the place you are shooting these birds is _NOT_ a
    _licensed_ shooting preserve, then the birds count against your daily
    and seasonal limit.  A licensed shooting preserve _must_ tag all birds
    shot on there premises.
    
    Jeff

	I belong to Leicester Rod and Gun Club in Leicester MA.  Last fall we 
received our "Game Preserve" status and license.  There are a number of 
regulations governing posting of the land etc. which have to be followed.  As 
previously mentioned birds killed on the preserve must be tagged.  Also you are
only allowed to "take" 80% of the released birds.  It does extend the season
and  as it was explained to me birds taken on the preserve don't count towards
your limits.

Carl