Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

   I've hunted several seasons in Northwestern New Jersey where the rut
   started around the 1st week in Nov and lasted for a few weeks.  You
   can bow hunt the full months of Oct and Nov with special permits.

   In PA I bow hunted two seasons (in Oct only) and didn't notice any
   rut activity.  But I don't think the rifle hunters get to hunt the
   rut.  The rut shares approx the same time span as New Jersey.  The
   peak of the rut is during fall turkey season (mid Nov).

   In Mass (where I currently live and hunt), the rut last year seemed 
   to fall also in November.  The first week there were no scrapes at
   all in my area - but the second week produced several almost over-
   night.

   I've read that that the rut is started by the does.  A hormone is
   triggered primarily by lack of sunlight (shorter days).  Some people
   say that cold weather also triggers it - but I'm not completely sold
   on that one.

   One other thing to consider is a second "rut" in Dec.  This is caused
   by the unbred does?  I'm not too familiar with this secondary rut.

   My 2 cents  /marc

      I hunt in Vermont, and I was also wondering about the rut. Two
    weeks ago (while bow hunting) I got out of my stand around mid-day
    and walked around for a while. I was on a logging road and I started
    seeing a few small scrapes (2-3' across). I followed the logging
    road for about 1/2 mile and I'd estimate that I saw 10-12 of these
    "scrapes". From the tracks in and around the scrape I figured it to
    be a small buck that was just kind of following the road. This road
    was thru hardwoods (maples to be more specific). I thought it was
    kinda strange, but just wrote it off as being a small prematurely 
    "excited" buck. Anyways, I went back there this weekend and the
    scrapes had been re-visited be the buck. In fact, the last scrape
    that I found along this road the previous weekend had been made much
    larger (now 6-8' across) and there were several saplings that had 
    been rubbed all to hell. A couple of them had been busted right off
    from the rubbing. To me these are all signs of a buck in rut. The
    weather has been in the 60s and 70s during the day, not exactly 
    prime hunting weather, and certainly not the type of weather I would
    expect to trigger the rut. Of course the past two days (after the 
    hunting season ended) it has been in the 20-30 range at night and 
    40-50 during the day. Figures. ;-(
    
    -Ron-

    scouted this past weekend in my hot spot in Mass, scrapes everywhere...
    Rut's starting and should probably hit hard about a week into the bow
    season (which starts Nov 4th)...
    
    Good Luck to all...
    
    Fra

    
    Fra, that should put the peak of the Rut somewhere around the second
    week of November.... Which is right on with all that I've read about
    the peak of the Northeastern whitetail rut!  

I,too have found much evidence that the rut is on.  Three weeks ago I missed a 
doe with my bow, near a few small scrapes. I just returned there with the
muzzleloader, and the whole woods is torn up  -  saplings uprooted, licking 
branches hanging down over 8 foot scrapes, etc.  I even found a dead 10-pointer
with a 15" spread. Looks like he had been dead for several weeks (picked clean).
I cut off the beautiful rack and plan to hang it in camp or use it for
rattling.

Anyway, all this rutting activity occurred during the warm spell that we had,
which really surprised me, because temperatures were in the 70's and mosquitos
were swarming all around me while I sat overlooking those scrapes. I personally
think that the full moon that we had brought on a lot of nocturnal deer
activity in the area. ??



                                                   Dave  H.

    
    RE:0
    
    Why do the Pa. Bow hunters want to hunt the rut?????  I understand that
    hunting during the rut a buck is more apt to walk about more during daylight
    than the rest of the year. However, a trophy class buck will most
    likely stay nocturnal of which he will travel quite a distance to a
    feeding area or area where most doe hang out, then he'll head back
    to the core area long before daylight. You might see lots of sign
    in your hunting area but he's probably deeper than the average hunter
    will go and he'll most likely be un-approachable as well, or yeah you
    could unintentioanly bump into him anywhere, but not hardly.
    
    A DeerSlayer (ha,ha) hunter...is someone who can hunt a specific buck
    each season and be successful each and every year, not by luck or
    chance, but by doing ones homework and understanding that specific
    animal. When I become 80% or better maybe I'll quit DEC, get a sponsor
    and consult, but I do know that before the rut one should be able to
    pattern a buck and successfully take that specific deer during the 
    pre-rut period. Once the rut begins, all bets are off, as the mature
    Whitetail buck becomes so un-predictable it's almost impossible to
    intercept him by matter of choice.
      
    Rick
    
     

    
    Oh yeah one more thing. The Rut is kicked off by the number of hours
    of daylight not the temp. of the air.
    
    Also, I hunted in So. N.H. this past weekend and seen 8 deer while on
    stand. 7 on Saturday all differnt times of the day. And 1 on Sunday.
    FWIW: I believe their getting a little itchy, but not in their Rut
          stage yet.
    
    Rick
    

    
    	re.6
    
    	I have no idea as to why the comment was made-did anyone else see
    that segment of Fred Troust on Sunday??
    
    

      Where I hunt in Ny, the bow season starts around the third week in
    October and goes to the last week in November.  Over the past couple of
    years, I've hunted most every week of the season during one year or the 
    other.  Consistantly, I've seen more action during the later two weeks 
    of the season.  The deer seem to be moving alot more during the last
    two weeks in Nov. then other times.  It may be that the weather is
    cooler, or that the rut has progressed more.  I tend tothink it is 
    combination of both.  This year I'll be in camp from Nov 11 thru Nov
    23.  One week of bow and one of rifle.  Also got a management permit.
    So if every thing goes as planned, I can shoot two with the bow and
    two with the rifle. Dreaming is fun.
    
    Jeff

    
    Jeff,
    
    I believe that the colder it gets the more fuel (food) deer need to
    keep warm.
    
    This is probably why there seems to be more activity feeding later 
    into the daytime. However, in colder weather deer don't like to 
    move about as movement eats up a lot of energy that they're trying
    to conserve. 
    
    IMO...
    
    Rick
    

 I saw alot of indications that the rut is starting at a place in Litchfield
a week ago. Many, many scrapes. Yet in Wilton, I saw but a single scrape
(but many tracks) and no rubs. Funny how two places that are so close together
can have differing stages of the rut...

    Rick,
    
      I agree with you.  I _know_ that geese feed alot more, and on higher
    protein food when the weather gets colder.  They need athe extra energy
    just to stay warm.
      It would make sense for deer to do the same thing.  
    
    Jeff

    
    	RE: .6 Rick,  very well said.  In Kathy Etling's "Hunting
    Superbucks" it is written those excact words.  Only during the Pre-rut
    period is a Mature whitetail buck predictable enough to figure him out.
    after that.... all (most) bets are off...  I've witnessed this myself.
    
    	I can handle hunting a feeding whitetail buck during October, but 
    I'm not doing so well at crazy rutted ones.. every time I think I have 
    them figured out, they're in the next town three miles away getting shot 
    while following a hot doe.
    
    		It's still fun trying - Rob

    
       Well today during lunch I took a little drive from Corning NY to
    look for a place to hunt down this way since I work here 2 days a week.
    
      I went into a place and walked down along a gas line rightaway I
    walked down to the old creek bottom then headed up the rocky creek
    bottom after I got about 200 yrds I cut up a long hill.
    
       shortly after cutting up the hill I found a well worn cow path I
    mean deer path it looked like a highway through the woods, as I looked
    up the  hill there was nothing but oak trees, and a look on the ground
    was just what  I wanted to see acorns everywhere!!!
    
       As I  walked out along this hill I caught a wiff of what I have
    always smelled around a fresh scrape, and not 20 yrds away was a fresh
    scrape and as I walked closer the smell was stronger. as I looked the
    scrape over there was an exposed root from the tree that was still wet.
    
     I looked over the area and found it to contain a good scrape line and
    the shape of the deer trail has me pumped for my first trip in there.
    This place is gonna be hard to hunt I am only down here 2 days a week
    and I live 130 miles away, and with the time change I will have to
    leave home around 3:30 am to get to my stand by daylight and then in
    the evening I will get a couple hours then I face the long trip home.
    
       I will have to say that most of the bucks are rutting around now but
    I dont expect the peak of the rut to start for a couple weeks when the
    days really start getting shorter which doesnt give the sun as long to
    warm it up which causes generally cooler weather, which IMO is where
    most people get the idea that cold weather gets the  bucks to rut.
    
       I hope this place works out if not for archery I will be there for
    the first day of gun season since I will be in Corning the whole first
    week of gun season.
    
                                                    Lee
    

    
    Rob,
    
    Here's a tip............
    
    The next time you get a chance I'd like you or anyone here to try something.
    
    You know those "Grass Swamps" you find inside the woods????? You know
    the kind...tall grass maybe 6 acres or more with mucky ground,
    sometimes you sink and the mud sucks your boots off???
    
    Well the problem is getting out there so everyone skirts them and
    hunts the woods and I don't blame hunters....but, there's islands
    out there about big as the top of a desk here at work. In a high
    presure area who do you suppose is bedded down out there????
    
    Next time you're bored take a quiet walk along the edge of these grass
    swamps....you're going to be surprised at the sign coming and going
    from them. There's no way you will go in and sneak up on a deer, but
    in some areas with hip boots or waders it's possible to drive the grass
    swamp or possible alone or with a partner jump some big boys out
    of there....
    
    You know what I'm saying??/
    
    Rick
    
    

    The newest issue of 'North American Whitetail' has a good article on
    timing break down. Basically, the time just before the does come into
    estrus is the best time to hunt rubs and scrapes. It's called the
    'pre-rut frenzy' and is when bucks are most active. Once the does start
    coming into heat the bucks will spend more time breeding and less time
    checking scrapes. The other hot time is immediately after the period
    when the does are in estrus and the bucks are still very much 'in
    the mood'.
    
    

    I think there's a misconception about the rut in this file. The rut
    doesn't start when the bucks start making rubs and scraps. It starts
    when the does come into heat and are ready to be bred. Bucks start
    making rubs and scraps in september and increase their activity right
    up until the does are in heat.

    
    	Rick, I guess I'll pay more attention to those places, thanks for 
    the tip.
    
    - Rob

    
    
    re .17, that's what I thought too, here is an additional thought, and
    perhaps its may be my imagination.  It seems that the intensity of
    the scrapes increases as the blessed event draws nearer.  Hunting in South
    Carolina, three weeks ago during opening day for rifle I heard a
    buck scraping a tree.  A week later in almost the same spot I heard it
    again, it was a more agressive scraping, it sounded a lot louder than
    the week before.  There are two points that I have been going over
    about this incident. 1 - It may have been a more dominant buck, not the
    same one perhaps a larger one.  2 - At the rate the leafs are falling
    perhaps the sound itself was just clearer and better able to carry.
    
    Leonard
    

    
    
        I somewhat agree that the actual rut starts when the does come into 
    heat, but the true rut is when the testosterone level rises in a buck,
    after all the bucks are ussualy the agressive ones not the does, I have
    watched bucks try to mount yearling does.
    
       The main reason for the EARLY scrapes is the buck is trying to
    establish HIS own teritory, as the does start to come in heat the
    scrapes become more agressively hit (bigger) and the rubs become more
    agressively done ie; the sapplings are ripped to shreads not just
    rubbed up.
     
        A buck will lay out a circle of scrapes in an area and he will
    usually stay within that area, after awhile he will (mostly) only visit
    the scrapes that does have come to (or a person with doe pee) and left
    their scent. the other scrapes will not even be touched alot of times.
    
      But I do agree that a buck in full rut is one of the most
    unpredictable animals we go after, but that is what makes it the sport
    it is.
    
      BTW  I set a stand in that spot by the pipeline yesterday and I
    returned at 4:00 as I sat along the pipeline (no cammies or bow) it
    was 4:20 I saw a deer walk out about 200 yrds away, he worked his way
    back and forth and came right down the hill towards me I watched him
    make about 15 scrapes along the edges of the pipeline. at 100 yrds I
    could see horns without the use of binocs (didnt even have any) this 
    buck came within 20 yards of me!!! I was in dress clothes to boot!!!
    
       After the buck went into the woods I left the area and he went right 
    towards my stand which isnt far from the pipeline.
    
        Tomorrow will take forever to get here, I probably wont sleep much
    but its worth every single agonizing bit of it!!!!! I truely love
    trying to figure these animals out and playing head games with them!
    
                                                  Lee
    

     Colorado:
    
    Elk: early to mid September (muzzle-loader and end of archery season)
    Deer: early to mid December (no season, except a rare crop damage or
                                 late season)
    
     or so I'm told
    
    chuck

Re:  .17,

Call it what you want, but for me the rut is the period in which I can 
concentrate on hunting around those areaes in which bucks are visibly working
to attract does (whether they're ready to be bred yet or not). This is a totally 
different method than I would use earlier (when I would concertrate on food 
sources, say). 

It sure is nice to know that sometime in the next couple of days a buck will
probably come back and visit a serious scrape line (as opposed to a few
scattered pawings of the ground), and my time is well-spent overlooking the
area. 



                                               Dave

    whether or not the rut is considered when the does go into heat has no
    bearing on the "pre-rut" activity i'm seeing now. I plan on keeping an 
    intense vigil over the scrapes i'm setting up around.  2 years running
    now, i've had big 8+ pointers, 165-200 lb+ class deer come in and tend
    their scrapes on opening morning... course it would have been far more
    successful had I actually killed them... ;^)  And one 5 pointer 3 days
    after the opener came in for a visit...  If the rut means that all bets
    are off, i'll be more than happy to take the pre-rut period where their
    a little more predictable.
    
    Theres nothing like doing your homework and intercepting a buck where
    he's set up shop.  That fleeting minute where you outwit them, is a 
    feeling thats hard to describe. 
    
    So while the Rut may not actually be on yet, like I said in a reply
    earlier, in about 10 days or so, it should be hitting hard, here in 
    central Mass.
    
    
    Fra

    
    RE: Fra,
    	The Pre-Rut period just prior to the does coming in to Estrus
    is THE time to Scrape hunt!!  When the does start coming into heat,
    the deer generally use their scrapes less and less as their spending
    most of their time with does.  A deer may not visit scrape sites for
    several days at that time.  But just prior to the does (or at least the
    majority of the does) coming into heat, the bucks will be working those
    scrapes like mad.  Maybe you were saying that and I just repeated you.
    
    	As far as the "all bets are off" statement I made back earlier,
    that would be the period when the does are in heat.  I'd like to have
    a chance to hunt some of the pre-rut activity, but here in Vt, our 
    season seems to be after all the scrape activity is over....
    
    Good luck - Rob

	For a more accurate answer, call your local game biologist.
	Their phone numbers are sometimes listed in the hunting law
	extracts from the state you intend to hunt.  If not, contact
	the Fish & Game headquarters and they will usually be glad to
	connect you with one, or give you his phone number.

	Last year, I was told that Southwest New Hampshire should peak
	around October 15.  The game biologist from Mass said that it
	usually starts just before or during the first week of bow.
	(November 4'th this year).  I never got around to calling this year
	so it may change.

	Mike

    From a purely layman's outlook... I'd suspect that the rut is
    underway is some way shape or form if you can scout and find
    rubs and scrapes.  It's my understanding that rubs are prompted in mid
    to late august when the velvet of the antlers stops supplying
    blood for he formation of the antlers.  This cause the velvet
    to begin to dry out and then become itchy.  This itching prompts
    the buck to scratch the velvet off of his antlers.  I'd suspect that
    the change in the velvet is caused my a hormonal change in the buck.
    Then comes the bloating of he neck and the shift to claiming territory.
    The beginnings of a scrape line to let other bucks know what is being
    claimed.  I think that at this time the buck will urinate on the scrape
    and if possible rub his antlers and head on a tree branch above the
    scrape to leave a scent mark.  This is then when any disputes are
    settled. Prior to the does coming into season.  The dominant buck wants
    to assert his dominance to keep other bucks from actively searching out
    does.  Then finally as the does come into season they to urinate 
    on an active scrape to let the buck know they are ready. Again it's my
    understanding that once this happens the buck and the doe will not
    eat all that much. The buck will persue the doe until he is successful.
    
    
    Tom

            I've had several conversations with Scott Williamson, he's
    the deer biologist for State of NH.  He has told me that the peak
    of the rut, that is when most breeding takes place, is approx. the
    20th of Nov.  Remember these are approximations.  Buck activity
    really picks up around Oct. 15th and goes on for a couple weeks.
    Then there is a lull, which he said they can't really explain. Then
    around Nov. 10th the buck activity picks up again, which leads into
    the heavy breeding time of the 20th.  The bucks will have started
    to prepare in late September and early October.  I think what some
    people are forgetting here is that all scrapes are not the same.
    Bucks make several types and sometimes even a doe will make one.
    The bucks make boundry scrapes, secondary and primary, some are
    even made out of pure instinct, by immature bucks.  There is much
    more to the rut then meets the eye.  In my opinion, the best time
    to catch a buck off guard is just before the does are ready to breed.
    By then he's half crazy with the desire to find a hot doe and breed
    her.  They are most vulnerable then because they're concentrating on
    one thing.  One thing I found interesting was that Scott said, in
    his opinion, the best time to rattle was in the early part of Oct.
    Because new bucks would be roaming into another's area to try and
    establish dominance, the bucks would be alert and ready to fend off
    all new-comers.
           But, in closing, he would say that; at any given time the
    whitetail will throw all the rules out the window and do basically 
    what ever it wants, when it wants.  In other words, just when you
    think you have them figured out, they change the rules........
    
            Enough rambling.......
    
                     Bob