Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    My daughter, Rebecca is now 6.  For years she has been coming outside 
    with me to help me "peel" (her words) the birds I get and play with the
    feathers.  A few weeks ago her school was closed for the holiday.
    Since my wife also works, it meant each of us splitting the day between
    work and watching her.  I figured "here's my chance".  I took the
    morning off and told her I would finally take her hunting with me.
    
    I took her to a spot that is pretty and easy walking (no swamps to
    slosh thru, etc).  We hunted with my lab for about an hour without
    putting up any birds.  I thought she might be getting bored, so I
    suggested we sit in the apple orchard and have a snack (her favorite
    part of any outing).  We picked a couple of apples and sat down.  No
    sooner had we sat down when this truck comes riding up into the
    orchard.  What the heck is he doing up here, I thought.  Well, it
    turned out to be the STOCKING truck with pheasants!  That's the only
    time that has EVER happened to me.
    
    We finished our snack and watch a cock pheasant walk across the
    orchard.  My lab was not happy we were sitting and eating when she
    could SEE a bird, but we made her wait.  We left that one alone and
    hunted a different way.  My Lab put up 3 pheasants, 2 of which I got.
    Rebecca was thrilled to see her dog finding and flushing the birds and
    even more thrilled to see her trotting back out of the woods with the
    bird in her mouth.
    
    We went home for Mom's turn to stay with her for the afternoon. 
    Rebecca said she had fun, but didn't talk too much about it, so I
    wasn't too sure what kind of impression it had made.  Then about
    her bedtime, she discovered that I planned to hunt again the next
    day without her.  She threw a FIT!!!  She expected to go every trip
    now.  We finally calmed her down and got her to bed.  She cried when
    she woke up the next morning and I was out hunting.
    
    Mark,
      

    
    Sounds like your daughter is off to a good start.  Can't really 
    contribute except to say I brought home a duck on Friday. My 1
    year old sone had a great time checking it out. Every time he
    got into the kitchen he wanted to climb into the sink and see 
    it again. He kept touching it and playing with it. If this keeps up
    I will have a great partner in several years.
    
    Congrats Mark, sounds like you have a great daughter, keep her
    interested and she (and you) will be all set.
    
    --Bob
    

    	My son is 12 and loves to shoot (pellet rifle in the cellar and
    my 10/22 outdoors).  I know he wants to hunt and that time will come.
    The message I'm trying to get across to him now, is the reason for 
    killing.  That we don't kill for the sake of it.  Game is the be utilized.
    (Of course I'd never cook a 'chuck, and I don't eat crow!?!)
    
    Andy

    
    	I took my 9-yr. old with me for the first time Saturday, looking
    for grouse with a buddy from work.  We walked at least 5 miles miles,in
    medium to heavy cover in the 4 hrs. we were out , and he kept up well.
    
    
    	He did ask why we were hearing occaisional shots all around us
    while we didn't even see a bird, but....
    
    	He came home tired, and saying he had a good time.
    
    
    		CHuck
    

    great note...
    
    took my middle daughter out bowhunting one afternoon a couple of years
    ago in mass, not far from the house... didn't see any deer, but we did
    see alot of squirrles, jays, and the highlight was a hawk...  At the
    time she was only 6 but has been hooked ever since.  It was a gas
    seeing the look on her face when seeing and hearing all the woodland
    creatures.  Last year they accompanied me into the woods to setup my
    treestand...
    
    Needless to say my two oldest (10-8) are both heavy into archery, and 
    my youngest will be getting her bow come christmas.
    
    did i mention their all girls...(10,8,6)  no problem, they all enjoy 
    it... makes me proud to just have them with me for few short moments.
    
    Fra                                                                  

    
    Fra,
    
    In years to come, will their husbands be considered, a 
    Deer season widower?
    
    I have a soon to be 4year old boy and 2 year old daughter.....I'm
    looking foward to teaching them....if they want too...I won't pressure
    them into it.
    
    Rick
    
    THEY BETTER HUNT!
    

    who said I was gonna let them get married...  hell they'll be lucky if
    i let them date! ;^)
    
    Fra

      I have three kids, Eric is 7, Kate is 3, and Mike is 4 mos.  The two
    oldest seem real interested in hunting.  Eric went with us goose
    hunting once last year.  He loved it.  We bought him a treebark
    coverall for Xmass.  This year he "helped" me build a couple of blinds in 
    the corn fields.  He can't wait till he gets to go again.  Kate is also
    getting to the point where she wants to go wherever her brother goes. 
    Had a funny incident with her last year after deer season.  She and
    Eric had watched me cut up a deer I stuck in NY.  The next day my wife   
    called to me to come see what Kate was doing.  She was in the playroom
    by herself.  She had her stuffed animal deer hung up by its back legs 
    by a shoelace from the banister.  When I asked what she was doing to
    "Tawny" (the deer) she showed me a Leggo, and said "Im skinnin him,
    were gonna eatem up!"  Thats my girl.
    
    Jeff  

    Re:.-1 Jeff, that story of Kate and the stuffed deer is priceless.  I
    love it!
    
    Mark,
    

    
    I am not a father yet (as far as I know), but am a proud uncle. When my
    two nephews (Rick's son and my younger brothers) were 2 1/2 & 1 1/2 in
    the same order I purchased for each of them as Easter presents Red
    Ryder 50th Anniversary BB guns. You should have seen the look on all
    our relatives faces when they opened the presents at the same time.
    The only thing my wife said to me when I bought them was don't forget
    our kids when they come along. As Rick has mentioned Eric will be
    turning 4 very soon, and as his Godfather also I've asked him on
    occasion if he is ready for a .22 rifle. His reply so far has been,
    "Not yet". So when he does tell me that he is ready a Winchester or
    Browning may be waiting for him. As for my niece she is playing with
    her brothers toy guns so we will have to see how much interest she 
    keeps before we get her anything.
    
    
                                                         Guy
    

      Was telling my wife about this topic last night and she reminded me
    about the following.
      My son Eric started first grade this year.  For "Show & Tell" he has
    brought in the following. deer shed, turkey feather, and a goose band.
    Anyway around 6 weeks ago, he had a friend over to play.  My wife
    overheard the following conversation.  Eric's friend, "Whats that?" while
    pointing at the deer mount on the wall.  Eric "Thats a deer head".  
    Friend, "Does your Dad KILL them?"  Eric, "Yep, it's neat, we
    eat them, we only save the heads."  This was the same week that they
    discovered Jeffrey Dahmer in Milwaukee.  Can only imagine what the kids
    parents thought when he told them that night.
    
    Jeff

     Although I think my 11 year old son is undecided when it comes to
    hunting, I found that a good introduction has been to bring him to 
    the running deer competition at our fish & game club.
     We've been working on the safety issues as much as the marksmanship,
    and I was happily surprised when he was able to hit the deer silouette
    jumping across the track out at 90 yards one or two times out of a max
    of three shots. General body shots, but hits nonetheless.
     I almost busted a gut when he waded into the crowd of old hunting
    bucks to sign up for the next round and proclaimed: "well boys, get
    ready to lose your money".
     After some degree of success at the running deer, and some of the 
    members & friends letting him shoot comfortable firearms, like an M1 
    carbine, I think he's got the bug but good. Now the problem seems to
    be holding him back. He's already calculating allowance income vs. 
    cost of firearm/scope/mounts/ammo. It was another chuckle when he
    put on his best horse trader face and tried to strike up a deal with
    the owner of the carbine for his "mint condition, most updated version
    of a British Mk4 No.1 star .303  with a perfect bore and all matching
    serial numbers!"
     
    Bob

                                                        
    My wife and I are expecting our first child this coming March. I've
    already started on his/her grandpa about buying the child a gun. I
    informed him that if he waited until the kid was 15-16 years old the
    shotgun I know he would want will be alot more expensive than it is
    now. I even offered to care for the gun until the child was old enough
    to handle it. Unfortunetly grandpa didn't fall for this so my, I mean  
    the baby's new shotgun will have to wait. 8')
    
    
    Actually, I can't wait till he's old enough to start hunting/fishing
    with me. I still have the 410/.22 over and under that I started with
    and that's what he'll be using once he's old enough. 
    
                               Walt
    

    
    re .13
    
    Walt,
    
    You gave away your wish for a son in your last paragraph.  If your are
    blessed with a daughter however, don't let that take away from your
    enthusiasm for teaching her to hunt.  I plan on inolving my daughter,
    I will not push, but slowly try to develop her interests.  I said at
    her birth, or shortly thereafter, how I wished she would be the first
    female I know to take a deer with a bow.  I hope she shares my interest
    with nature, only time will tell.
    
    So Fra, if one of your daughters takes a deer with a bow, don't tell
    me, so my wish will still be able to come true....  ;^)
    
    Kevin

    Kevin,
    
    You got my word, not a peep! ;^)  ya right, I might be able to keep my
    mouth shut should my daughter shoot one...  I'll be the happiest dad 
    you'll ever meet.  It's terrific having kids isn't it!
    
    Now if I could only get my wife out there...
    
    Fra

    
    Kevin,
          Did I say boy? oops. It was an honest mistake, honest. 8')
    Actually, boy or girl it doesn't matter, if he/she wants to hunt
    that's fine with me. If they choose not to, well that's o.k. too.
    But either way they will have the opprotunity to learn, ask questions
    and hopefully share the same experiences with me that I did with my
    dad.
                            Walt
      

    
    re .16
    
    Yeah Walt...I know what you meant...
    
    Here's to wishing you a healthy child.
    
    Kevin

    
    	I found that just taking the kids for a walk in the woods is
    	a great way to ease them into the hunting scene.  Last year there 
    	was a group of deer that we kicked up once, and plenty of tracks to
    show them.  They heard the pheasants, spooked a couple of grouse, and 
    this year my two daughters kicked up(almost stepped on/got the heck
    scared out of them by) a woodcock.  After the 'cock disapeared, my
    7 yr old asked."Can you eat those Dad?"
    
    	I don't have the smarts to figure out how to tell her that first,
    Dad has to be able to shoot the thing.

Kevin hit the nail on the head a few back when he mentioned going slow.
I started my son hunting with me when he was 10, but the mistake I made
was trying to make a hunter out of him BEFORE I let him enjoy jsut
being in the woods. I would take him out squirrel/rabbit hunting push
him to be quiet, be very stealthful, answer his questions abrubtly and
OH SO QUIETLY, so we would'nt scare the prey. I was so good at it that 
after a while he decided that doing homework would probably be more fun.
Fortunatley, I relealized what I had done and just kinda let him be for 
a few years and two years ago I gave him my old bow to use and he enjoys
that. This year he took a bow hunter saftey course (he's now 15) and is 
planning on taking his Hunter safety next year. He also asked about
getting his FID card in case "he wanted to go hunting again", so 
hopefully next year I will have a new partner and he will have someone
to hunt with that is a little wiser in how to teach hunting.

I also have a daughter who is 19. She loved to shoot, especially pistol
when she was younger, but now that she is in a raving liberal college
she is not so interested and is becoming one of THOSE (I think). Oh
well I will love her anyway.. :<))

Jack

    
    re .19
    
    Jack,
    
    A quote my Father-in-law told me at the birth of my daughter, 
    "You're going to have to understand that you only rent your children,
    you never can own them."  I think he hit the nail on the head.  As
    much as we want them to share our beliefs, they are their own persons,
    and will develop their own attitudes, would we really want it any other
    way?  Not me.  If presented properly I believe our children will share
    our interests, but cramming anything down another human beings throat
    will only drive them to the opposite extreme.
    
    I'm speaking generally here, not implying anything.
    
    Kevin

    
    
    Great topic!
    
        My two children are absolutly nuts about hunting and fishing. My
    three year old son is just so funny, I can't beleive the things he learns
    so quickly. His plastic gun is his favorite toy. I ask him what he is
    shooting at and he says- "me shooting big deer just like you daddy!"
    The other day I took him scouting with me, of course he had his little
    gun, and he was hopeing we would see a wild turkey. My wife even got
    a kick out of that. I really want to take him out with me to do some
    bird hunting with my brother, but my wife says he just to young. She's
    right! 
    
        Of course he loves playing with his gun and blowing a duck call-
    drives my wife nuts. Oh well- I think its great!
    
        I can't wait until I can spend the time teaching him the rules,
    regulations and morales behind hunting. So that someday we can spend
    that quailty time together in the woods enjoying one of Gods greatest
    gifts!
    
        Of course I hope that my daughter, who is only 1, is right there
    beside me also!
    
        Fra- I think you summed it up- If I could only get my wife to give
             it a try! 
    
    
    Take care,
    
    Wildman
              

	Jack, apart from agreeing with Kevin in .-1, then
	perhaps it is also worthwhile remembering how you
	felt about the world when you were 19/in college.

	At that age, young people are all set to change the
	world for something better, NOW! It used to be your
	generation thinking that your parents were some 
	conservative old "farts". Now its your children 
	thinking the same thing about you... In time their
	turn will come as well. Normally, people tend to modify 
	their views once they grow out of the college environment -
	maybe because they start earning a salary? :-)


						- Mike

    
    For those of you thinking about bringing your wives out hunting.
    I did just that 2 years ago. It was during bow season and it was
    a little chilly out. I had her dress warm and we walked into the woods.
    I knew right off it was not going to be a productive day. She was
    fullof questions about cover scents, why did we sit here and not over
    there. When will the deer come by, etc. She had a hard time sitting
    still and keeping quite. Just as I was giving up the thought of seeing
    any deer she points and yells out, "Look, there's one there, quick
    shoot, shoot!". I nearly bust a gut laughing, that deer was gone before
    she even finished her sentence. Even though I didn't get him it was
    still a great day, and I mention it to her every now and then just to
    keep her in line. No she doesn't hunt with me much anymore, she decided
    she liked sleeping late in a warm bed rather than getting up at
    3:30a.m. to go hunting. Come to think of it I like that too. 8')
    
                            Walt

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt want to change her (even if i could) or
have her change, she's a great kid. It might be a little difficult
getting out to hunt with her and friends surrounding the truck (only kidding)

Jack

    
    
      My wife decided she wanted to hunt, cant beatem joinem she said...
    took her hunter ed course, bought her own guns, and the first trip out
    hunting I sat her down and I said the deer will come from there ----->
    well 20 minutes later she tapps me on the shoulder and wispers here
    comes 3 _______ deer, neadless to say I got a laugh out of that, I told
    her to get ready to shoot, she did I watched the deer walk into the
    swamp out of sight, after they were gone I said what happened?
    
       I figured she didnt want to shoot, but she looked me right in the
    eyes and said "you always told me if I didnt think I could kill the
    animal with a clean killing shot not to shoot and I didnt have a very
    good shot.
    
        I told her she was welcomed to hunt with me anytime she wanted and
    if the other guys in camp didnt feel right about her being there that
    we would stay somewhere else.
    
         She still hunts with me, I am trying to get her into archery but
    she has a hard time drawing a bow back., but if she can shoot a bow as
    well as she shoots a gun she will be a threat to the deer.
    
          She did the tracking job on the deer in Pa this year, with some
    help from me, the next time I will let her do it on her own.
    
     
                                                           Lee
    

    
    
    re.21 three yrs. old is not too young to go out, if you take him to an
    area that is easy for him to walk and no other hunting pressure, thats
    a good time to train him to understand some of the safety rules of 
    a potential hunter..
    
    my son at 3yrs. of age was bugging the hell out of me to take him, so
    i did, a place where i figured we would'nt see any hunters let alone
    any pheasants,  but to our surprize we put one up, i shot at it and
    missed however he's been hooked on hunting ever since..
    
    i hunt with a couple of guys at work and i bring him along, (he's 7.5
    yrs old now)  and he walks along either beside me or behind us.
    we sometimes forget he's with us, 
    
    about a month ago, i heard of a bow hunter safety course and i wanted
    to go, the day of the course my wife was sick with the flu.
    i was going to stay home because we have two kids (daughter 6 yrs.old)
    also but she suggested maybe i could take my son and my daughter is
    easy to entertain reading whatever...so she would stay home with mom.
    
    my son had no idea where we were going that morning all he knew was
    i had packed his bow and arrow set and my own..
    
    so i explained to him that this course is really for grown ups and
    i expect him to be good and listen and not act up or i was going to 
    take him home early..
    
    well to my surprize and delight he fully participated in the class
    asked questions, answered instructors questions, participated in the
    blood trail demonstration, shot his bow at the 3d deer target, and 
    took the final exam ( verbally)..
    
    the instructors actually certified him as sucessfully completed the
    bow hunter course and he has his own certification card he proudly
    shows company and relatives...
    
    i still quiz him about safety rules and situations about guns etc..
    
    i plan to take the bow hunter safety course with him again when he is
    about 14 or so .....
    
    i could go on and on about all the great hunting/fishing times we've 
    had in the last 4 yrs.. 
    
    he's my best pheasant hunting partner.
    
    just a side note last year i bought the wife a 20 ga. and now usually
    on saterday afternoon when all the yahoos go home we all go out as 
    family hoping to pop a bird..
    
    start 'em young and and show them the right way....
    
    mike
    

 Gee, Ken. I sure hope my daughter and I share that sort of relationship. :-)

 She's already used to the idea that daddy shoots deer. And she comes fishing
with me. (She's 2.5 years old.)

 She loves the woods and the outdoors in general. I'm trying to get her
started on the right track. :-)

 The Doctah

    On the topic of at what age kids should come taging along, I thought I
    would mention what one of my regualar hunting partners does.  He has a
    very good quality (LL Bean) backpack for carrying kids on your back.
    Since his son was about a year old, he started carrying him hunting
    with him.  
    
    I think this started because his wife is a nurse and often works
    the late shift.  It gave him a chance to get out and easily keep
    the house quite so his wife could sleep in after working late.
    
    His son is 5 now (I think) and they are still doing it, but now the
    boy has to walk half the time to give his dad a rest.  Of course, they
    are careful about the type of terrain they hunt, but the both seem
    to enjoy it.
    
    Glad to see this note has been so popular!
    
    Mark,
    

         I have a daughter 15 and 2 boys ages 11 & 12. My daughter has
    expressed in all ways just how much she wants no part of hunting. My
    boys on the other hand love it. They have been going Deer hunting with
    me since they were 5 and the both of them have been with me when I have
    shot one. Next year they are both going to PA. bow hunting and both of
    them are going in N.H. during gun this year. They both have their own
    shotguns and pratice shooting at least once a week. I take them out of
    school on opening day if their grades are up to par.(gives them
    something to work for) This will be the first time they will have their
    own guns and be able to maybe get their own Deer. Both of them asked if
    it would bother me if either one of them got one and I didn't! Needless
    to say I told them nothing would make me happier than seeing the both
    of them get one. They also go out bird hunting(grouse)with me, usually
    twice a week. They haven't managed to down one yet, they cannot belive
    how fast they are but they still have fun being there. This is what my
    wife was dreading, if the boys liked it, it gave me more reason to
    spend more time in the woods and thinking of gifts at Christmas is
    never a problem any more.
    
        Bob

    
     It's good to see so many hunters introducing their daughters to
    hunting. I too have a daughter who enjoys the hunt. 
     Her interest sparked back in 1980. During the deer season that year
    I bagged a 10 point buck. The morning I shot him we loaded him onto 
    the truck and drove to my in-laws house to show my wife the deer. My
    daughter, who was 2 at the time, was fascinated. Everyone looked at the 
    deer, oooo'd and aahh'd and went back in the house, but Kellie wanted
    to keep going back out to the truck and touching his antlers.
     From that point on all she talked about was the day when she'd be old 
    enough to hunt with daddy. 
     Well, I had her take a hunter safety course in '89 and took her out
    for the first time last year. I took her out Saturday mornings, we'd
    stay in the woods for about 2-3 hours, then go back to the house (we
    hunted within walking distance). We didn't see deer, but it was kind of
    my way of gently introducing her to going into the woods, staying
    quiet, watching and waiting. She loved it and wants to go again this 
    year. Yesterday afternoon she and I went out and fired the deer rifles
    to verify that they were sighted in. Fortunately, she's also a good
    shot.
     My younger daughter isn't interested in going, but that's ok. She
    *does* enjoy eating what I bring home.
    
     Good luck to all !! Keep getting the youngsters interested....it's the
    future of hunting !
    
    

    HI GUY'S
    		I HAVE A 5 1/2 MONTH OLD SON THAT I CAN'T WAIT TO TAKE 
    WITH ME IN THE WOODS. ALL I WANT TO DO IS BE HALF AS GOOD A TEACHER
    TO HIM THAT MY FATHER IS TO ME.  HE ALWAY'S HAD TIME TO TAKE ME OUT
    HUNTING. HIS MOTHER SAY'S MY SON CAN FISH BUT NO HUNTING. ALL I DO
    IS LAUGH.  MY FATHER LAUGHS TOO. HE CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WE CAN GET 3
    GENERATIONS OUT IN THE FIELD TOGETHER.  PATIENCE.
    				
    						BUTCH

    i took my daugther out hunting for the first time this past sunday.
    this is the first year that she has shown any interest in hunting she
    is 12 years old. we took a 22 with us so she could get use to the noise
    and i had my shotgun. she also had a friend with her. myself and my
    buddy taught the kids on the safety of the guns and the do's and
    don't's with a gun. after showing them everything we could off to the
    woods we go to find squirels(sp) we go. i think we were in the woods
    maybe 1/2 hour when my buddy daughter stepped on a bee hive and got
    stung about 100 times. so i thought after that accident that would
    change my daughter and her friends minds but it didn't they want to go
    back out again this weekend and also spend some time looking for deer
    signs. it just made me feel so proud of my daughter in showing an
    intrest in my type of enjoyment. she has always been a mamma girl. now
    she is coming towards dads kind of thing. i just hope that she will
    stick with it and learn more about the wild and the way the animals
    survive and the relaxation and pleasure of hunting the right way.

    
    
    At present i have a 2 year old daughter and a 1month old son. Hopefully
    by next year I'll have my daughter out scouting with me, and maybe
    tagging along for birds (easier walking on her). 
    
    I've had to teach myself to hunt because my parents were not hunters.
    My grandfather was, but his asthma kept him from getting me into the
    woods. I hope to be able to give my kids the opportunity to learn about
    hunting and firearms from a responsible adult. Having to teach myself I
    ended up taking alot of stupid chances because I didn't know better. I
    don't intend for my children to have to go through that.....it's not
    necessary.
    
    	Besides, I don't have a dog to flush birds, so the kids'll do...!:)
    
    
    						jim s.

      Took Eric (7 yr old) out on Saturday goose hunting.  We had a ball.
    At one point he was out in the decoys fixing a flipped over shell when
    a flock started coming in.  Told him to lay down and not to move.  It was
    great.  The birds worked beutifull.  At one point we had at least
    twenty birds all set to land all around him.  He never moved.  He said
    later all he could see were big feet ready to "jump on him"!  We had to
    wait for the birds to fly over the blid so that we could shoot.  Eric 
    is hooked.
    
    Jeff

    How cold was the water?

    wise a$$
    
    8*)

    I am interested in any suggestions you might have regarding a first
    deer gun (rifle or shotgun with slugs) for an 11 year old considering
    cost, recoil, etc.
    
    My son has been shooting and varmit hunting with his .22 for two years
    now and is looking forward to deer season this year.
    

    bolt action .270 ;^)
    
    Fra

    
    single shot 20guage.....can't think of a manufacturer off hand, but I
    know they're reasonably priced and a good dealer should be able to
    point you in the right direction.....
    
    
    		jim s.

RE:                      <<< Note 1065.39 by AUNTB::DBROWN >>>
                             -< First Deer Rifle >-

	You don't tell us whether your son is capable of handling a
	full size gun, i.e. can he handle the standard length of reach
	(13 - 14") and weight? Also, in a lot of cases single shot guns 
	make sense for young shooters, they tend to instil safe gun 
	handling and the importance of good bullet placement. But I don't 
	know if this is what you are looking for?

	One short reach gun is the Winchester Ranger in the Youth/Ladies
	model, it comes in .243 (ideal for recoil) and you can trade up
	to a full size stock later at 50% discount.

	In single shots I've always liked the Thompson offerings, either
	the Center Contender Carbine or the Center TCR. They both come in a
	number of chamberings suitable for deer (with light recoil) and
	for the Contender you can get those lovely switch barrels.

	For a *full* size gun, at a great price though, check out the
	sporterized Swedish Mausers (from Century Arms, I believe). They
	come in 6.5x55 (great for deer, low recoil) and the price is right.
	May well be too large for a kid, though.

	At the top of the price range, a Remington Model 7 in .243 or in
	7mm-08 (if your boy is not recoil shy) would be a gun for life.


	Just some thoughts. Lucky you, to be going hunting with your boy!

								- Mike

 A used Winchester Model 94 or Marlin lever action 30-30. Relatively economical,
not a fortune to shoot, recoil that a boy can handle, you don't have to worry
about junior dropping it in the woods. And it's fairly safe. I don't know what
else you could ask for.

    re.39 You don't say how big the lad is, or whether he has any
    centerfire experience, so, I'll take a 'shot in the dark'.
    
    I'd look at something in a 250 Savage or 257 Roberts (only 'cause
    I'd prefer a 25 caliber over a 24 for deer ;-) ) Both rounds are
    mild-kicking but have plenty of punch for deer at reasonable ranges.
    
    If you'd prefer a single-shot, the Contender carbine in 7-30 Waters
    is a nice gun in a light-kicking deer caliber. (Plus there's the
    multi-barrel versatility.)
    
    Dana

    seriously though... 
    
    what type of terrain are you planning on hunting? any Shotgun only 
    areas? How big is the boy, and how much recoil can he handle... If he's
    small you migh look into the carbines as previously mentioned. The .243
    will have much less recoil than the bigger calibers, but shot placement
    is that much more critical... a young shooter may not have the
    experience of when and when not to shoot, and thus take some chancy
    shots, that being the case the larger calibers (.257, .270) will offer
    a little more wallop without much more recoil...
    
    how bout a little more info and the guys here can offer you better
    answers.
    
    Fra

    RE: .45 and others
    
    Thanks for the suggestions so far.  My son is a light (80 lbs.) 10-year
    old.  His rifle experience so far is .22 only (both bolt action and
    semi-auto).  His centerfire experience is limited to light .38 spl.
    rounds in my SA .357 mag. revolver at the range.
    
    Our hunting is mostly done in an 1800 acre private hunting club.  The 
    terrain is mostly flat wooded areas with light tree cover hunting
    from tree stands.  The are several shotgun only hunts each season, but 
    the majority of the time, rifles or shotguns are acceptable.  We also
    have the somewhat unique benefit of an extremely long deer season here
    (August 1 to mid-January) so the conditions vary widely from summer to
    winter (such as our winters are here).
    
    Thanks again for the suggestions so far and for any more that the above
    information brings out.
    

    Hmm, do you have access to any rifles in 357 or 44 magnum ? At 'close'
    ranges either will kill a deer reliably. 
    
    Alternately, do you reload? I don't know what you shoot, but you could
    work up some light loads in your gun, to see what the boy can handle.
    For instance, if you have a 30-'06, you could try some 110-grain
    bullets at around 2000 fps. Then load some at around 2400. As long
    as you start at a low level of recoil, and let your son get familiar
    with handling the jolt, he should be able to 'grow' into handling
    fairly powerful guns. 
    
    One more thing - invest in a shoulder pad, like the ones available from 
    PAST. The best way to deal with recoil is to _never_ suffer from it.
    Then you learn to shoot the gun instead of fear it. (In the deer
    woods, firing at a live critter, you'll never notice the recoil.
    But on the range, the gun should never be allowed to bite.)
    
    Dana

	I have to agree with most of the suggestions made sofar.
	In particular with regards to the caliber suggestions
	(.257 Roberts and 7-30 Waters). I fully agree with the
	.257 being superior to the .243 in terms of deer
	hunting - with little added increase in recoil. The only
	reason I suggested the .243 in the first place is the 
	availability of guns in .243. Guns in .257 Roberts seem
	a bit scarce these days (Ruger, Remingtom Mountain Rifle
	others??).

							- Mike

Another combination that you might consider is the 6mm. Remington in
Remington's model 600 (or is it 660).  The rifle I'm thinking of is
designed to fit small shooters.  My younger brother took his first
buck with one when he was 12.  He was always small for his age, so
he was probably in the 80 to 100 lb. range at the time.

Ballistically, the .243 and 6mm are about the same.  However, when
Remington first introduced the 6mm (as the .244, I believe), they
made it in a rifle with rifle twist that didn't handle the heavier
bullets.  The later rifles made for this caliber have a more appropriate
twist and handle the heavier bullets well.  My brother's rifle shoots
just fine.  Also, I believe that the 6mm is a little more versatile
for reloading purposes.

Jerry

Another caliber that you might consider is the 7mm, or 7x57 Mauser.
I've only shot one of these, and the recoil was surprisingly light.
It was a heavier military rifle, though.  Sporterized versions might
kick too hard for a 10 year old.  Perhaps others can offer an opinion.

The 7x57 is a very highly regarded caliber.  Some gun writers,
Finn Aagard comes to mind, swear by it.  Also, the wife of Jack
O'Connor used it extensively, even in Africa.

It's certainly worth checking out.

Jerry

    I would steer away from a lever action. Its too easy to hit the
    trigger during cycling if your finger(s) is in the wrong place.
    The first year my brother was able to hunt (14 yrs old- CO), he
    sent a bullet over my Dads head while chambering a round, kinda
    put a chill on the fact that he had just got his first deer. This
    was with a borrowed 30-30 lever action. Gave him a strong hard lesson
    in gun safety (watch were you're pointing it). The ease of accidentally
    having your finger in the front section of the lever (to hit trigger
    on/after the chamber cycle) did'nt help either. Youth and lever-actions
    No-sireee
    
    chuck 

    re.46 Earlier I mentioned the the Contender Carbine. I think this
    gun is available in the 357 *Maximum*. This gun would allow starting
    with 38 Specials, moving up to 357 Magnums, and ultimately the
    357 Maximum loads. 
    
    Being a single shot, the carbine would encourage good marksmanship.
    The gun is small and light enough for a youngster, and with extra
    barrels, you have a 22 LR and a 410 shotgun, plus more powerful
    centerfire calibers.
    
    In bolt-actions, take a look at Remington's Model 7. This is a
    top-quality gun, light in weight, and short enough to be easily
    managed in the woods. Your son will not outgrow this gun. (I'm
    a fairly big guy, over 200 pounds, and I love my little 7 - I see
    no reason to carry more weight in the woods.)
    
    One more thing, be sure to make your son an integral part of
    the rifle-choosing process. He'll shoot better and hunt better
    with a rifle that fits him, and that he had a hand in selecting.
    (Let's face it, part of the joy of hunting is selecting one's 
    personal hunting gear.) If he chooses a gun that costs more than
    you figured to spend, work out something where he earns part of
    the purchase price. It will make the gun still more 'his'. And
    you might not have to mow the lawn for quite a while ;-) 
    Also, guns usually last a lifetime. He'll fall in love with a
    different model long before he wears this one out. Heaven knows, 
    thoough I love my rifle, that Featherweight Winchester I had in my 
    hands a couple weeks back was a mighty slick piece... ;-)
    
    dana

    Dana,
    
    while i agree that working up to "hunting" cartridges would be optimal,
    $$ may be an issue... I'm assuming this gun will be purchased with the
    sole intent of hunting deer (or varmints)... I personally don't believe
    .357 mag is enough... and at best is bare bones minimum...
    
    IMHO,  Fra

 Probably the cheapest option is to get a single shot 20 guage and use
slugs. It's very safe, it's inexpensive, and you've gotta be fairly close
to bother shooting. Again, it's on the minimum side for taking deer, but it's
inexpensive, safe, and you can use it for other things besides deer.

	Dana, I have to agree with Fra, I am not all that crazy about
	the .357 cal handgun cartridges for deer. Yup, they will get
	the job done given the right circumstances, but I would be hard
	put to think of a rifle cartridge that would not do the job
	with a lot more authority. Now, your idea of the Contender
	Carbine *is* one I like for kids - especially in 7-30 Waters!
	Now there is a round well suited for deer! Mind you, in the
	Contender nothing would stop you from buying a switch barrel
	in 7-30 Waters and one in .357 Max...

	I'm also in love with the Reminton Model 7's, I've wanted
	one in 7mm-08 for a long time... There is a gun for life
	for a young man!

							- Mike

    Thanks for the inputs.  We're going shopping next weekend.  I'll let
    you know what he picks.

    re.55 (Rathole alert)
    
    >Rem Model 7...in 7mm-08
    
    That's my baby ;-) 
    

	I just spent 4 very enjoyable evenings with my 11 year old son, Matt,
	going through the hunter safety course.  We studied the book and
	game regs together.  I picked up some tapes from the DOW to review
	and help re-enforce the info from class and we would watch them in the
	afternoon.  He put 6 of 10 .22 shots in the 2 inch bulls-eye on the
	range test and only missed 4 of the 50 questions.  We reviewed the
	ones he missed and he really knew the answers, just felt rushed.  He
	is a very proud young man, as is his old man.  

	Gordon

    
    
       Thats great Gordon, I'm hoping that my son, who's gonna be 4 years
    old next month, is going to enjoy hunting as much as I do! He's already
    telling me, don't worry daddy, when I get bigger I'll shoot the deer
    for you!:') 
    
    Gus

Well, Saturday was the big day.  I packed up my Grandad's old
Winchester Model 67 single shot .22 (my Dad had already cut the
stock down and put peep sights on it), made a lunch, and my
9 year old son and I headed for the mountains.

I had hoped to get into some Blue Grouse, but such was not the case.
However, all was not lost.  In fact, we had a danged good time.

The first place we tried had the road closed, so we had to try
someplace else.  No problem, we would just get a bit later start.
A bit later, we found a place, and started working our way up a trail.
We were in fairly heavy cover, mostly pines with a few aspens.
I was explaining to Morgan how to walk quietly, and stop and listen
every few steps.  Then we heard a squirrel chatter.

It didn't take but a minute to locate it, as it darted across the
ground and ran about 1/3 of the way up a pine tree.  Then, it struck
a picture-perfect pose.  The shot was about 20 yards, and I wasn't very
confident that Morgan could make it.  After all, he's just started
shooting.  I was wrong.  Morgan shot and the squirrel dropped.  A
neck shot.  Boy, were we two proud guys.

So now the world has one more addicted hunter.  We finished the
day with 2 more squirrels, one taken by me and another by Morgan.
He thinks it's great, and is ready to go again.  I guess so me guys
just have all the luck.

Jerry

This Saturday I gave my 9 year old a lesson in 'reading sign' that I
don't think he'll forget.  It did make an impression.

We were deer hunting, and came across a small pile of deer droppings.
I bent down and showed Morgan the sign.  He wasn't too impressed.
Then, I picked up one of the pellets and put it in my mouth, chewed
on it for a minute, and proclaimed that the sign was about 2 hours
old.  Of course, he thought it was gross.  He didn't care if that
WAS the way you were supposed to do it.



A bit later I told him that I had palmed a chocolate M&M and had
eaten that, not the deer pellet.  At least now he doesn't think
I'm crazy.

Jerry

 Even better is to use a pile of raisinettes (hey, come over here!) and offer
some to the kid. :-)

    I know it probably resembled your wifes cooking, however please
    refrain from eating feces in the field.  who knows what kind of disease
    you can pick up.
    
    Just kidding,
    Bob
    

>>        <<< Note 1065.63 by ODIXIE::RHARRIS "Proud to be in the NRA" >>>

>>    I know it probably resembled your wifes cooking, however please
>>    refrain from eating feces in the field.  who knows what kind of disease
>>    you can pick up.
    
    Bob,

	I'm going to do you a BIG favor and not tell my wife about
	your remark.  I hate the thought of her making your wife
	a widow.

    Jerry



Just kidding, too. ;-)
    

    I started this note when I first took my daughter hunting with me. 
    It's not time for me to update it with my son's first trip.  My wife
    and daugther were away camping with the girl scouts this weekend.  That
    left Matt (not yet 6) and I alone for the weekend.  I gave him the
    choice of what he wanted to do, and hunting with dad was his top
    choice.
    
    I wasn't too optimistic, since there is a lot of hunting pressure on 
    Saturday and we wouldn't be getting a super early start.  We stuck to
    the easier places to walk.  Matt was enjoying it, but I could tell he
    was getting tired, and we had only put up one grouse (and I didn't get
    a shot).  I suggested we hunt back towards the truck deeper in the
    woods.  Not long after that I saw a cock running on the ground.  I
    couldn't get it to flush, and my lab eventually ran it down and caught
    it.  I hate it when that happens, but boy, was my kid ever impressed
    that his pet caught a pheasant!  I missed 2 other birds in the
    woods, then the dog got on another one.  This time Matt yelled "Dad
    look out!" because it flushed right at us.  I shot it after it passed
    us in full view of my son.  
    
    What a great morning!