Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

                     That would only be FAIR!!!!!
    
                      SORT OF AN EYE FOR A EYE...
    

    
    Perhaps what is needed are armed patrols, like the ones in Africa, who
    watch for elephant(other game as well) poachers.  
    
    This kinda of thing really irrates the devil out of me, killing for
    food is one thing but this, sad thing.
    
    Leonard

    
    Poachers.....
    
    Get this, I was at a wake the other night when I was talking with this
    guy I just met (my girls brotherinlaw). We were talking hunting and I
    was enjoying the conversation, since I didn't know anyone there I was
    happy to find a hunter.
    
    He seemed to know kinda what was going on but I could tell he was a
    story teller (thats ok...I have found some of our hunting stories are
    like fishing stories). I even invited him along to hunt over my lab
    this year.
    
    I couple of people joined into our conversation and it turned to deer
    hunting when this guy announces he and his buddies got 16 deers 2 years
    ago. I thought to myself wow this guy must hunt in 3 states with bow,
    blackpowder, shotgun and gets one every time out.
    
    Well I asked how did you do that and he proudly said...
    
    You have to go out EVERYNIGHT to get them.
    
    At first I thought he was joking then he proceeded to tell us all (with
    his chest out) how they went about it and how good of a hunter he was.
    
    I stood up and told him and everyone there, that he wasn't a hunter
    but a scumbag poacher, told him he shouldn't be allowed to have a
    license, withdrew my invitation to hunt over my dog and walked away.
    
    Needless to say I got some guff from my lady at first because she
    didn't know what he was doing was not just against the law by a low
    life thing to do. And I wasn't going to feel right if I didn't say
    anything to him, or read this note again. 
    
    I wish I knew where he kept his guns...I'd find them, then go practice
    the baseball swing by some trees
    
    Gets me mad just sitting here writing it.
    
    Flame off
    
    Duff
    
    
     

    Re.-1
    If in that conversation you found out where he "hunts" you owe it to
    yourself, decent hunters, and the deer heard to report him.  Call it
    in.  Even just to alert the warden that this sort of activity is going
    on in area X.  If this guy is really out every night, he'll get bagged,
    but not unless he's reported.
    
    Unfortunately I believe poaching is a lot more prevalent than most
    people think.  Where I hunt in the mountains of western Maine it is not
    at all uncommon to hear gunfire at night in the hunting season.  It's
    tough enough being a law-abiding hunter and having to take the grief of
    anti-hunters without having these rotten apples adding to an already
    unjustifed bad image.
    
    Report him if at all possible.  He deserves it.
    

    
    re .4
    
    How is someone going to report a guy for taking "16 deer 2 years ago."
    If he said he did it last week that is one thing, but .3 doesn't owe
    it to anyone to report this, in my opinion.  He did the right thing
    then and there, I wish I had his guts.  How many of us jump on people's
    backs for shooting a little, "camp meat"?????  Heresay means nothing
    to the law, if it's a recent occurance maybe they'll take notice, but
    I doubt they'd even consider this.
    
    Give .3 a break, he stood up for his beliefs and ethics, and that
    probably did a lot more to change the poachers attitudes than anything
    else.
    
    Kevin

    Here's how.  Even though it's a couple years later, by phoning up the
    appropriate F&G people you can alert them to the fact that you were
    talking to someone who was bragging about poaching in area X a couple
    years ago.  You don't know if the activity is still going on, but you
    just want to make the past history known to the right folks.
    
    For the record, I too think that .3 did the right thing then and there
    instead of just saying nothing.  My suggestion was meant to perhaps
    take it one step further.  Even though it's now two years later, a
    phone call would let the local warden know what has gone on in the past
    so that they can be possibly more atuned to it happening in the present
    or future.  The poacher can't be picked up for what he did 2 years ago,
    but perhaps the right people can keep an eye on him (or on the area he
    poaches) if they are alerted to past history.  Just my $.02
    
    Pete
    

    I heard on the news last night: Here in Colorado poachers take as
    any animals as are harvested during the normal big game sessions.
    
    That's allot of poaching going on.
    
    gut'em and hang'em I say !
    
    Mark

>>           <<< Note 1048.7 by CSC32::WATERS "The Agony of Delete" >>>
>>
>>    I heard on the news last night: Here in Colorado poachers take as
>>    any animals as are harvested during the normal big game sessions.

Several years ago I remember reading an article which stated that
poachers take twice as many deer as legal hunters in Michigan.  If I
remember correctly, hunters take about 160k/yr, and poachers about
twice that.  OUCH!

Also, several years ago I took a hunter's safety course.  I was
living in New Mexico at the time.  One of the course instructors
was an auxilliary game warden.  He was telling us that poaching
was big business, and that a lot of the poachers were career
criminals and very dangerous people.  Then, he went on to tell
of a couple of guys who were caught poaching in the northern part
of the state.  Their driver's license and IDs revealed that they
were from the central part of the state, which is quite a ways off.
When the judge asked them what they were doing so far from home, they
replied that there wasn't any game around "home" anymore, and that
they had to travel up north to find something to poach.  Needless
to say, this didn't help their case.

Jerry

    I think that part of the problem is that the seriousness of the
    crime is not recognized. The judge may look at a deer as 50
    pounds of meat or so, and the law may call poaching a misdemeanor.
    The actual value of a deer is much higher. Look at the revenue
    brought into a state by hunters. License fees, guide fees, 
    lodging and food, etc. Look at the amount of money spent to manage a
    herd. That money is being _stolen_ by poachers - they invalidate 
    statistics collected from deer kills being reported and tabulated.
    
    Poachers are _felons_ when the true extent of their crimes is known,
    and the laws should reflect this. (Also, criminal misuse of 
    firearms by poachers should be rigorously prosecuted, but that's
    another issue.) If poaching were a felony, conviction would
    prevent a poacher from _ever_ owning firearms again, with
    stiff penalties if caught again. 
    
    Above all, remember - a poacher is _not_ a hunter, and allowing
    either the poacher, the media, or the anti-hunters to confuse 
    the two is a serious detriment to our sport. Poachers are not
    hunters, they are thieves.

    
    
       I put a note in the Archery file but I wanted to put this in here
    also.
    
        From the wellsboro Gazette from wellsboro Pa.
    
       4 MEN (not hunters) where arrested on Oct 9 1991 in tioga Pa. for 
    shooting 10 deer illegal with bow and arrows over spotlights. these
    guy's would go out spotting find a deer shoot at it mark the area by
    hanging a napkin in a tree and then come back in the morning and look
    for the deer if they could find it all they did was bone out the hind 
    quarters/ and tender loins and LEAVE THE REST TO ROT...if they couldnt
    find the deer they didnt worry about it at all.
     
        They had 1 tagged deer and parts of 10 other deer at the trailer
    they were renting at the time of the arrest's. the police/game
    commission confiscated all the bows,arrows,knifes,and 2 vehicles. 
       1 guy plead guilty- $200.00 fine let go...return later? probably not!
       3 guy's plead not guilty $350.00 bail let go, now they can go across 
    state lines to get these fellows!!
    
         Total fines are expected to reach $22,000.00 , these guy's were
    all from Mass. the thing that really burns me is they wouldnt take the 
    whole deer only the hind quarters... when the GW asked why they shot so 
    many one of the guys was quoted as saying "we were laying in on our
    winter supply of meat"....
    
        Now as I stated in the archery note I am not totally against
    someone taking a deer out of season or if they dont have a license....
      ===== IF and I mean IF ====== this person is out of work and cannot 
    afford to go to the grocery store and pay the high prices of beef, If
    this person is useing the game to feed his family with I feel that this 
    is easier to handle than someone going out and shooting this many deer
    and only taking part of the deer or game animal. if a person goes out
    and shoots an animal for food for their family they generally take the
    WHOLE animal.
       Another way I look at it is I would rather see a person go out shoot
    a deer out of season to feed his family versus the same person going
    out and holding up a gas station or convenience store to get money for
    beef at a store. after all in some places in the U.S. the economy is so 
    bad that there just arent any jobs. 
    
      but anyway back to the story; these guys obviously had money to buy
    beef...lets see...$90.00 license $30.00 gas $40.00 food $50.00 lodging
    so  figure somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-300 buck each person,
    well I guess you can buy alot of beef for that kind of money, now that 
    they got caught they paid more than that, heck 2 vehicles taken big$$$$$
    
           The thing that really suprised me was they did this all at night 
    heck thats the easiest time to get caught at it.
    
       Oh well maybe this will teach these slobs a lesson.
    
    
                                                         Lee
    
    

	Regarding poaching, did anybody read the article in
	National Geographic (an issue from this summer -
	has a bunch of red foxes on the cover) about
	poaching and illegal wildlife trade in the US? 

	I only read it about a week ago, and it made me
	just so mad! Now, I know that National Geographic 
	tends to take the "bunny hugger" view in many cases,
	but if even half of what was in that article was
	true...

	I went back over this note, and I dont think I can
	express my feelings any better than:

>>          <<< Note 1048.9 by SA1794::CHARBONND "Northern Exposure?" >>>
>>                        -< sigh, on the soapbox again >-

>>    Above all, remember - a poacher is _not_ a hunter, and allowing
>>    either the poacher, the media, or the anti-hunters to confuse 
>>    the two is a serious detriment to our sport. Poachers are not
>>    hunters, they are thieves.

	The problem is ofcourse, that in articles like the one
	in Nat. Geo. no such distinction is made - fairly or
	not. In any event, it does not do wonders for the image
	of hunters.

	If you have not read the article, then let me just
	say that one of the issues which the article brought
	up was hunters taking more animals than legal, taking
	animals in no-hunting areas like national parks etc.

	That brings me to think of one particular issue: 
	most of the hunting litterature available - in the form 
	of magazines, books etc - always portrays the successful 
	hunter taking (near) trophy size animals. I enjoy reading 
	these stories as much as the next guy. But seen in the 
	light of some "hunters" turning into poachers, I'm beginning
	to wonder about all this. One could argue that the unrealistic
	expectations that such stories might foster could be a part
	of the reason why some weak souls elect to break the game 
	laws in the manner described above.

	Sometime I have the feeling that hunting is being turned
	into a numbers game - the largest spread, the most points
	etc. People go hunting feeling that they have to live up
	to their friends, the outdoor writers etc. The consequence
	is a lot of pressure that - if it does not go as far as
	breaking laws - atleast spoils what hunting is supposed
	to be all about: enjoyment of nature coupled with the
	exitement of the chase. We risk being turned into robots
	if we accept the idea of constantly hunting with a tape
	measure in our pocket. That is the picture of todays hunter
	which contemporary litterature very much presents.

	Am I wrong?

							- Mike

    
    	Mike, no you're not wrong! I agree with you 100%.  It's a 
    competetion thing.  Now I know getting a deer allows someone
    a certain amount of bragging rights - it's part of the fun of 
    hunting - telling and retelling the story.  It's the excitement
    and feeling of accomplishment.  Only problem is, some people take
    it too far (with reference to poachers taking more than their legal
    amount).  I've got a real pet peeve about this because I have hunted
    with someone who's done it and I chose not to hunt with him last
    year because of it.  
    
    	I tell ya, some people think deer season means to kill as many 
    bucks as you can find in the woods!!  They get one and they go try 
    to find someone else to tag their 2nd one.  Geez, I love to hunt
    myself and feel a twing of pain (yes it happens) when I get one and
    my season is ended, but hey, that's the brakes!  I feel glad that
    I got one - now I go grab my shotgun and try to move a few deer for
    my buddies!  It's all in the attitude, some people have such low
    self esteems and inferiority complexes that they have to prove that
    they're a man by shooting every deer they see.  Arggh, this subject
    really P$%^& me off - sorry I'm going on a rampage -  for some people
    the law is for the "other guys" -
    
    Now, I wonder if I'm all wet here myself - Rob

    
    I caught part of the new t.v. show "The Commish" the other night
    and they had 3 cops carrying a dead deer one carrying a rifle and
    another escorting the perp. After some chatter the perp says to the
    Commish, "What's the matter, you don't like hunters"? The Commish
    looked at him and said, "Hunters play by the rules, you didn't,
    you're not a hunter you're a poacher!". I thought it was great,
    I'd like to see more things like that than the usual drunken hunter
    bit.
                                       Walt
    

    
    
       On saturday after an unsucessfull morning in my treestand I decided
    to take a walk around the area I am hunting, Now I wish I would of just
    walked out of the woods and went home.
    
        As I was walking along an old logging road I rounded a turn and
    Looked off to my left and my heart jumped to my throat as I saw what
    appeared to be a nice buck lying next to a couple trees, I stopped drew
    back and as I was looking at the deer's head something just wasnt
    right.
       
        I let down and walked towards the deer, as I approached the deer I
    found it to be DEAD, I walked around to the belly side of the deer and
    the deer had been gutted. it was obvious that the deer had been killed
    within the last 48 hrs, in 70 degree weather he was kinda ripe.
    
      as I looked over the deer he looked to weigh 150-170 lbs, 8
    beautifull points 14-16 inch spread. as I checked out the body cavity 
    I found the only thing this person took was the tender loins and the
    big part of the hind quarters ( they didnt take any bones from the hind
    quarters) they walked out with a maximum of maybe +- 20 lbs of meat.
    
      Needless to say I was really P oed. as I walked out of the woods I
    could only ask myself why some person would want to do that to such a
    beautifull animal. and the worste is yet to come, after a call to the
    local game warden I got the response of since it happened on that apple
    orchard the owner has an OPEN PERMIT FOR CROP DAMAGE!!!!!! I said look
    this deer was found 300 yards from an old non worked over grown apple
    orchard... he said it doesnt matter.. 
    
        I know in my heart it wasnt the farmer who shot the deer, I know
    the farmer and I just know that he would never to such a dasterdly deed
    he has always imediatly cleand the deer and then taken the meat to a
    needy family., to date this year he has shot 3 deer all does, all he
    uses is a .270. the deer I found was shot with a shotgun slug right
    through the front shoulders.
    
        It makes me kinda uneasy to go to my stand when I know if I ever
    run into someone poaching and they gotta gun and I have my bow I could 
    become a statistic, there are alot of mexican farm workers on theese
    orchards. I can almost hear the explaination now, I was grouse hunting
    and we flushed a bird and I shot I never saw the guy who was dressed in
    cammies.
    
    
                                           Well thats it for now.
    
                                                       Lee
    

    
    
    More poachers leave monumental wate
    
    It's happened again - elk poaching at the Florissant Fossil Beds
    National Monumnet. The park rangers say two spike (young) bull
    elk were shot from the raod late Nov. 2 or early Nov 3.
    
    "They simply shot them and left them thre to die," siad park ranger
    Richard Compton. "One died right away, but the other was rump shot,
    and it just laid there and bled to death."
    
    Hunting is forbidden on the 6,00-acre national monument.
    
    "You know, we can understand people shooting out of need and taking the
    meat. But when they shoot them and just leave them thre to die, they're
    jerks, poachers, not hunters," Compton said.
    
    The meat from the two elk was salvaged and given to legitimate hunters,
    Compton said. "So at least it went to a good use, but it's still sad,"
    he siad.
    
     A trophy bull elk was shot from the road early October; its head and
    cape were removed with a meat saw, and the rest was left to rot,
    Compton said.
    
    The American Association of Hunters and Fisherman Inc. has offered a
    $5,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the October case.
    Anyone with information about these or other poaching cases are asked
    to call the monumnet, 748-3253, or the Colroado Division of Wildlife
    "Operation Game Thief" at (800) 332-4155.

    While deer hunting in Maine last week (Rangeley Lakes area), my brother
    and I found the remains of a poacher's work.  Medium sized bull moose. 
    Shot from the logging road.  They backed a pickup to it, took the 4
    legs and shoulders and the antlers and left the rest for the
    scavengers.  Not a pretty sight.

    Did you report it?
    
    Mark.

    Yup, reported it to the warden in person.  Said they have quite a few
    poached moose every year.  This was the first one I ever ran across.  A
    few years ago I heard they found a cow and two calves shot all
    together.  (Just a reference pojnt for readers, this area of Maine is
    NOT in a portion of the state that allows moose hunting via the permit
    system.)
    
    It's sad.  The moose in my area up there are so tame that while my
    brother and I were setting up a couple tree stands, a good sized bull
    stood around and watched us the whole time from only about 200 feet.  I
    often take my kids out at night to watch the moose feeding.  Animals
    that tame are easy pickings for poachers.

              I was up at my brothers house in upstate New York
    and his brother-in-law told us he had found five deer, two
    bucks and three doe.  The only thing taken from them was the 
    hind quarters, the rest was left to rot.  Sh*t like that really
    pisses me off!  How someone could do that is beyond me.  I feel
    a certain sadness when I take one legally.  It is just such a
    waste of a magnificent animal.............
    	      
                     Bob