Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Brian, sounds like you live in an area where an organized drive is 
    a good technique. You also might want to check out 'common' access 
    areas, roadside areas where lots of guys enter the woods on
    opening day. Look for funnels leading away from these areas into
    the most dense cover around, take a stand, and let the guys
    entering the woods push 'em to you. 
    
    I will admit, I read a lot of the same stuff you do, and much of
    it _is_ geared towards the South and Midwest where deer are much
    more plentiful. Especially record-book racks. 
    
    Where we hunt in Vermont is farmland, which helps a lot, but crop
    rotation can kill ya if you don't take it into account. The deer
    move right over the mountain if that's where the corn is planted!
    My own tactic lately is to get out with a few guidebooks and really
    try to get a handle on all the other stuff the deer are eating.
    'Deer and Deer Hunting' ran an article a few years back listing 
    the foods the deer eat, the list covered practically every plant
    in the world!! And I didn't know what a third of them are. So
    now when I identify a new wildflower, another book tells me, "Yeah,
    the deer eat these, too." 
    
    One thing we've picked up on in Vermont, a few weeks and a frost
    can dramatically change the hunt. After the herbs and stuff in
    the woods die off, any remaining food source, such as standing
    corn, or fields, really get hit harder. And you might find that
    the deer are traveling a couple _miles_ to feed at night.
    Remember, a) the nights are getting longer and b) it really only
    takes a deer 3-4 hours to fill it's stomach. He can hit the field
    an hour after dark, fill up, bed a while, munch a bit more, and
    be back a couple miles into cover by sun-up. A bedding area is
    a gold mine.
    
    Dana

    Dana,
    
    thats the problem with deer though, man, they'll bed down anywhere and
    everywhere... theres no rhyme or reason to where they'll be bedded in
    VT where we hunt.
    
    take last year for instance, about 3-4 days into the rifle season
    we had a wicked cold couple of days, temps hovering at 0 degrees, had a
    covering of snow 6" or so, and the sun was out, but it was clear and
    crisp.  you would think the deer would be bedding down on the sunny
    sothern slopes... nope, there on the backside of the hill in the shade,
    which dosn't get hit by sunlight till almost 10:30...  go figure...
    
    I've jumped them bedded down in the strangest places, and places where
    they shouldn't be... like right behind the camp in the slashings which
    when the leaves are down you can see into from the camp windows.
    
    funnel hunting and edge hunting are other good ideas to try in really 
    large areas with no fields or apparent crops...  look for edges of
    woodlots where hardwoods meet conifers... where level ground meets
    hillside slopes... saddles, nobs, ravines, edges of streams/brooks... 
    edges of swamps...  deer love to hang out in the fringes of one type of
    area where they can quickly move to the safety of the other at a
    moments notice.
    
    fwiw,, fra

    
    
    RE: .1
    
      Organized drives are Illegal in Maine.
    
    
    Chuck

    
    RE:3
    
    How about a dis-organized drive?   (ha,ha, just kidding, though i've
    seem to been on a few myself)
    
    Re: 0
    
    These guy's would'nt last a week in Northern- New England. The gray
    ghost would have them crying mama. Notes 1 and 2 sum most of it up
    especialy, the Fra on hunting where two different types of terrain
    meet.
    
    Hoenstly though, I have come to the conclusion that the reason you
    don't hear of these so called big-shots hunting up here is it is just
    to difficult for them. They would have to do real hunting.
    
    Rick
    

    
    RE:0
    
    
    Almost forgot.  A good book is the "The White-Tail" by Lenord La'rue.
    
    Rick
    
    PS. Don't quote the spelling of his last name.
    

    
    re .4 about the big name hunters not hunting in NE.
    
    What about the Benoits in VT? They seem to get big bucks every year, I
    remember reading about them, they took the writter out, he got a 
    big buck, then the Benoit who was with him got one.
    
    If I remember correct the way they hunt is to find a fresh track and
    working in pairs they track it, the front guy watches the track the 
    others guys entire job is to locate the deer and shoot him.  They
    walk close to each other in a single file.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    	Larry Benoit with another fellow wrote a book called "How to Bag
    the Biggest Buck of your Life"  I've got a copy and have read it 
    cover to cover several times.  It is a good book but it leaves out
    some very important details, especially when it comes to getting 
    close.  If you're into tracking deer in the north woods, though, it's
    a good book to get you pumped up and give you the starter information
    you'll need.  After trying various tactics myself for the last 12-15
    years hunting, I'm convinced today that one of the most reliable and
    effective means to consistantly score on a north-woods big buck is
    to track him down.   I've been on the track of huge deer but have not
    gotton one doing this YET.  I know several people personally who 
    have tracked and shot big deer, and I've read accounts of those
    who have in various articles, and hear through the grapevine about
    countless others.
    
    	I don't know when it will happen, but I've pretty much committed
    myself to tracking in the north woods to shoot my biggest buck.  As
    long as my legs will take me and my eyes can see;  it is an exciting
    way to hunt, especially if you're on one and close.  If you jump him
    and screw up, or he gets the best of you (which usually happens with
    me now), then you learn from it and go onward.
    
    	You'll never catch me sitting on a stump in November with fresh
    snow on the ground unless one of two things is happening: - I'm 
    tired from dragging a monster, or I'm tired from tracking all day and
    am taking a candy-bar break.
    
    	But I don't think I'd do this with a bow, only with a rifle.
    
    - Rob
    

    Tracking is definately not the only way to shoot big bucks... for the
    last two years in mass, I've had the opportunity to shoot at 2 very
    large bucks (200 lb class) 8 pt and a 12pt (approx) on opening day.
    
    Both times i had done extensive scouting, set up treestands, and sat
    patiently waiting for the big guys to check their scrapes...  both 
    times they did.  You know what happened with the first one...  Last 
    years was not only a problem with the arrow rest, but with maple
    saplings growing where they shouldn't...  ;^)
    
    So you can see, tracking may be one way, and after a little hunting
    pressure may be the only way... but if you opt for hunting with a bow,
    the opportunities are there for early cracks at undisturbed deer.
    
    Fra
    
    

    
    Rob,
    
    The Benoits are successful because they hunt the entire season
    everyday, from sun-up to sun-down. They strictly hunt the most northern
    part of VT. and Maine. They hunt the tip tops of mountains until they
    find a good track in frsh snow-Fresh snow,is the key, they locate snow 
    by driving in the car checking mountain tops. Once they find a buck they
    stay on him as long as daylight permitts. They don't get lost or worry
    about it because they hunt the top of a mountain and go around and
    around. I know how these guys hunt and believe you me if I had 60 days
    to do it I'd write a book too.
    
    
    So if you want to increase your odds I suggest you try extensive
    scouting and be more of a stump-sitter.
    I bet you a do better.
    
    Rick
    

    Dana, I usally hunt with one other guy or by myself so doing drives 
    becomes limited if not non-exsistent. I appreciate your inputs on how
    far deer travel at night to feed. I have debated this question for
    hours on end. 
    
    Fra, your experience of jumping deer right behind the camp is
    also intriguing as last year when hunting in Harmony Maine on our
    4th day of no sightings, the water pump went on our Bronco. We had to 
    take it to this tiny garage on the outskirts of town. While we where
    waiting we got to talking about where we were hunting with the
    mechanic/owner. The guy chuckled that we where going out in to 
    the boonies, hiking in 45 min every morning. He said all of his buddies
    /locals are hunting right on the road. My buddy and I discussed this and
    decided to locate some stands near a road with other good variables
    such as funnels and edge etc. I 'll be damed if I didn't have three
    pass under me in the dark and my buddy took a 7 pointer that morning.
    
    This will be something to consider again this year.
    
    Rick, thanks for the title of the book, I will look around for a copy.
     I thought La'rue(sp) was a photographer. I am also glad to see that 
    someone else has suspisions on the hunting abilites of our SUPER HUNTER
    heros.
    
    Several people mention "tracking deer" I take it that this means in the
    snow ? This would pretty much limit your hunting until late November 
    though would'nt it? 
    
    I've tried on occasion to still hunt for deer but find I don't have the
    patience or grace to do this type of hunting. You can hear me coming
    for miles. 
    
    Fra, I play hunter pressure after opening day in Mass. and N.H.. I am
    still not convinced that these big deer in Maine are spooked after
    opening day as there doesn't seem to be the same level of pressure.
    
    I bowhunt MA., N.H. and Penn. every year and have great
    success/opportunity but Maine has me totaly confused.
    
    Rob, is the book you mention basic ? I have read enough and have enough
    experience that I could probably write a book of my own. At least at
    the same level as a lot of these books and mag. articles. Iam looking
    for N.E. hunting advice only. Not some writers corporate sponsored hunt 
    on a mid western ranch where they have been feeding deer with steroids
    and other growth hormones.
    
    
    Brian
    

I don't mean to sidetrack this, but can anyone offer a reason why
drives are illegal in Maine?  Also, I believe that the LaRue fellow
is actually Leonard Lee Rue III.

Jerry

P.S.  To the moderator.  You may want to move this to another topic.

    
    	Brian,
    		The book is more than basics, if you didn't know what a 
    scrape or rub was, I wouldn't recommend it.  He does get into some
    whitetail buck habits and traits that are evidenced in the deer's
    tracks that would be useful even for non-trackers.  I agree that
    tracking is not for everyone, and there are conditions and situations
    that just absolutely don't lend themselves to it.  I't a hard book
    to find though, and makes for very interesting reading even if you
    never decide to track.  
    	One of the reasons I found that I just liked the tracking more
    is that Through following tracks, you'll learn where a buck hangs
    out, how he lives, where he beds, eats, travels, etc... It's a good
    way to just learn about bucks, even if you don't get one doing it.
    Also, in deer woods devoid of other hunters and with a low deer
    population density, it's a way to find and locate concentrations
    of deer.  I find myself now even following tracks in leaves when
    there's no snow - and even seen deer that way!  Like anything,
    there's lots of ways to do something, and some of it is personal
    preference.   
    
    	RE: "super hunters"  Without getting too detailed and long winded,
    let me tell you what I've found with some so-called self-proclaimed
    "super hunters".  It's a bunch of hogwash, bull.  I spent the last
    ten years of my hunting career with a self-proclaimed super hunter
    and all it did for me was to screw me up and make me think you had
    to be "special" or a superman to outwit a deer.  He liked to tell
    everyone how great he was for doing what he did, but never cared
    to show or explain the basics.  The first year that I got away from
    that I got another deer relearning with someone else who is a much
    better teacher and doesn't have a head swelled so big it wouldn't
    fit through the door.  Anyway, do it your way and experiment and
    don't believe everything you hear from all these "super Hunters",
    you'll be much happier in the end.
    
    I've got more books, but they're buried in boxes from the move,
    I'll try to dig up what I got and post some titles.  BTW Leonard Lee
    Rue is a writer, but is very good with whitetail habits.  A must 
    book IMO.
    
    - Rob
    

    
    	on Leonard Lee Rue last paragraph, last entry, that's Photographer,
    (and writer).  oops. Practice up, falls coming

    L. L. Rue III is a photographer and writer (see 'Rue's Views'
    in 'Deer and Deer Hunting'.) To my knowledge he has a column
    in an outdoor photography magazine, and possibly others. He
    is fortunate to live in a high-deer-density area of New Jersey,
    which affords him lots of photo opportunities.
    
    About deer travel - my buddy shot a nice 5-pointer two seasons ago,
    it's belly was full of grass. This was early in the morning, and
    approximately a mile from the nearest field. The deer and one
    other were heading for a bedding area along a trail we know.
    Distance is approx. 1.5 miles from field to beds.
    
    Can't speak to every situation, but this year my main stand is
    further from/higher above the field than ever before, to catch 
    the deer I believe I've been missing closer to the field. Ask
    me in October ;-)
    
    Some of these writers/famous hunters make no secret that they 
    travel extensively to hunt. Dick Idol hunts several provinces
    of Canada, where the _big_ deer are 300 plus pounds, and the 
    hunting is mixed grain fields and woods. Nice work if you can
    get it ;-)
    
    Dana

    Dana,
    
    
     Are you moving higher up the ridge because you feel that the deer are
    walking past you prior to shooting light? My feelings are that the deer
    are typicaly almost at the top of the ridge at first light. I hope your
    stratagey pasys off.
    
     I still have to work on believing that deer will travel a mile and a
    half from a field to a bedding sight. The deer I see on the move in the
    woods would need 8 hours to make that long of a trip. Maybe these deer
    are hitting the fields at dusk and are leaving after feeding for a
    couple of hours. 
    
     Does anybody have any feelings as to when deer would start eating
    fallen beechnuts? Do you think that they would start eating them as
    soon as they fall or save them until the browse and grass is gone?
    
     I have been told by the owner of the camp up north that there are a
    couple of beechnut groves up in the general area where we will be
    staying. I really have'nt had much success watching beech for deer. But
    given that it may be the only type of nut up there maybe it would be
    something to scout.
    
     I can tell the season is close the deer are moving back into the 
    areas that they vist prior to hunting season thier next move will be 
    (hopefully) right under my treestand.

    re. Note 985.15          
    SALEM::BOHANEK                                       
 
    >Dana,
    >Are you moving higher up the ridge because you feel that the deer are
    >walking past you prior to shooting light? My feelings are that the deer
    >are typicaly almost at the top of the ridge at first light. 
    
    Yes. I believe they were passing my stand before I was getting there,
    or I was pushing them out on my way in.
    
    >I hope your
    >stratagey pasys off.
    
    Me too ;-)
    
     >I still have to work on believing that deer will travel a mile and a
    >half from a field to a bedding sight. The deer I see on the move in the
    >woods would need 8 hours to make that long of a trip. Maybe these deer
    >are hitting the fields at dusk and are leaving after feeding for a
    >couple of hours. 
    
    We're used to seeing deer browsing along, but when they are traveling
    with a purpose they do move right along. Last year two came by me on a
    trail heading down to the field. My budd, posted at the corner of the 
    field where the run ends, saw them about ten minutes later, - distance 
    about a quarter mile! 
    
    Frome what I've read deer will often fill up in a crop field, bed down,
    and rise later to 'top off' before heading back to their daytime
    bedding grounds. 
    
    Dana

I just receieved _For_Big_Bucks_Only_ in the mail.  It was sent to me
from the North American Hunting Club (NAHC).  The letter which came
with stated that I had been specially selected to receive this book,
blah, blah, blah.  My first response was to send it back, but I
began reading it and think I'll keep it.  It only costs me $5.00.

Anyway, the book is meant to be a fairly comprehensive treatise on
trophy whitetail hunting.  There is a chapter on hunting beaver ponds
and another on hunting in the deep woods (which, incidentally, discusses
hunting beaver ponds, again).  I've only read about half of it, but
the author (whom I can't remember) cites several scientific studies
about deer behavior.  He also cites several so-called experts, and
relates their advice.  All-in-all, it seems to be pretty well written
and provides some reasonably sounding advice.

From the top of my head, here are some of the points mentioned.

1)  Avoid contaminating your hunting area with your scent (nothing new
	here).  One point in this category was to use a masking scent,
	on the ground (even if your hunting from a tree stand).  His
	argument was that other animals (small predators, etc.) would
	detect your scent and avoid the area.  This, in turn, results
	in a void of their scent.  A wise, old buck would be alarmed
	as much by what he didn't smell as what he did smell.  Also,
	if you use a masking scent, and hunt from a tree stand, use
	a scent from an animal that would be found in a tree.  In
	other words, don't sit 20 ft. up in a tree and use deer
	scent.  Deer know that other deer don't climb trees.

2)  Use topo maps and stereo-graphic maps to assist in your scouting.
	Try to locate small beaver ponds and swamp islands.  He really	
	likes swamp islands.  Also, there is an entire chapter devoted
	to the use of stero-graphic maps.  Stereo-graphic maps are
	actually two aerial photos, placed side by side, viewed through
	a stero-scope (or something like that).  It gives you a 3-D
	impression.

3)  Look for funnels (again, nothing new).  He cites a guy who hunts
	next to a busy hi-way and gets a big buck every year.  He
	also suggests hunting along navigable rivers and river islands.

There is a chapter on tracking, which I haven't read, yet.  There is
even a chapter on back-tracking.  That has never occurred to me.

Anyway, for $5, it's worth the money.  At least to me.  I don't know
if you can get it from anywhere other than the NAHC.  Maybe you can
find member in your vicinity who will let you take a  peek at it.

Jerry

    re .17
    
    Just a friendly warning on the NAHC books. I too accepted the first
    book they sent me for $5. THe catch is that you will now receive
    a book every month or so which you either have to return or pay
    for, the return postage will be ~$1.25. I had alot of trouble 
    getting out of the deal, even after my membership was up they
    sent me one more book, then when I returned it without opening it
    I had trouble convincing them that I did return it.
    
    --Bob
    

    I too had the same problems as listed in .18 and have since canceled
    my membership with the organization.
    
    Brian
    

    One thing we really had hammered home this past year, was how much
    deer like *corn*. The farm we hunt is leased out, usually only
    has hay or clover growing. Last year the guy leasing it put in
    corn. Then he had a problem getting it all in, so there was a
    strip of corn about 50 feet wide left standing. The deer were 
    hammering it! We even had a bear take up residence in the vicinity.
    Normally a couple of our guys hunted the other side of the mountain, 
    where there are active farms, and always some corn planted. They
    had consistently seen more deer, and more turkeys too. This past
    year our side of the mountain really came alive. 
    
    Bottom line, I'm convinced deer will relocate a considerable distance
    to take advantage of a good food source. Your area may seem like
    "big woods" but you might want to make sure you know _all_ the
    food sources and hunt accordingly. 
    
    Dana
    

    While I'm at it, a further thought on this 'relocation' thing.
    It's usually quoted as gospel that a deer will live in about
    one square mile. While this may be true, it does _not mean
    that the deer will live in a *one mile square*. Think about it.
    A corridor a quarter mile wide and four (!) miles long is only
    one square mile. Ditto a half-mile corridor two miles long.
    The deer we hunt seem to range pretty easily from one side of 
    the mountain to the other. (One of the best spots on rifle
    opener is the saddle on top ;-) )
    
    Take a hard look at the topo maps of your area and eliminate 
    the open areas, the areas with no cover or feed, and then
    figure out what a square mile of _good deer cover_ looks
    like. You might just find a bottleneck where all the deer
    funnel through, even if there are trees all around you.
    
    dana

In the book, _For_Big_Bucks_Only (mentioned in a previous reply, and,
by the way, the author is Jeff Murray), the author devotes an entire
chapter to acorns.  He claims that this is the whitetail's preferred
food, although he doesn't get into any type of discussion about
field crops vs. acorns.

Anyway, according to this guy, deer prefer acorns from the white oak
to those from the red oak.  And they further prefer acorns which have
just dropped to those that have been around for a while.  And, when
there is a good acorn crop, especially white oak acorns, deer will
be more concentrated in the areas which are heavy in acorns.  In
years when the acorn crop is poor, deer will tend to be more dispersed.
Since you are asking about deep woods hunting, I figure that acorns
might be a more important food source than field crops.

A few other things which might help.  He claims that aspen leaves are
the most common deer food, as they are the most abundant.  He also
claims that deer will eat over 70 different types of browse and
shoots.

Another technique he discusses it back-tracking.  That is, if you locate
the tracks of a good buck, back-track it to try to establish it's
route.  Be careful that the tracks are fresh, and that they were made
in the later part of the day.  Otherwise, you may end up sitting on
a spot which the deer frequents at night.  This, of course, implies
that you have to be able to age a track.

All in all, the book is intersting reading.

Jerry