Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Tracking a deer always seems to go well for the first couple
    hours, then you either get 
    
    
    1. The deer that loops around in 500yd radius circle, and you can't
    find where it jumped off the track.
    
    2. The track leads into a 1000 acre swap.
    
    or
    
    3. The deer started to fly. The track just vanished, no matter how
    wide you expand a circle from where you lost it.
    
    Of course it's always fun when the deer you just jumped, is tracked
    for a mile, and then runs into a spot that 10 other deer have been
    in over the last 24 hours and you can't pick out which one is the
    one you RECENTLY jumped. Even tracking on snow can become confusing
    when there's been alot of activity in the area and your on a fresh
    set....                          
    
    Marty (who can't wait for tomorrow morning!)
    

    
    	This months F-F-G has a good story on tracking.  The little that
    I've done out behind the house has taken me over hill and dale, only to
    be left standing in the middle of a field-feeling very stupid/blind. 
    It is a lot of fun tho.

    
    RE:1&2
    
    I Can relate to what you're saying for sure...ha,ha....Is'nt it fun
    though with a fresh snow early in the morning.
    
    Anyone else care to share experience or tips?
    
    Rick
    
    P.S. Peterson, I have the F.F.G., that's where I got the idea for this
         note.
    
    

    Re: Tracking
    
    	This is a science in itself. There are probably as many articles
    and books on tracking as there are on balistics. Do we talk straight
    tracking as crossing a good size Buck track ? Do we discuss tracking
    as following a wounded Deer ? Then we get into the different types
    of blood drops ( colors ) which will indicate whether it was a lung
    shot, a paunch shot etc. Do we get into the different types of tracks
    made by a Buck just walking, or the dragging track made by a Buck in
    Rut sniffing out a Doe in heat ?
    
    	Gee, I like this topic, we could easily hit the 500 reply mark
    in no time. Don't get me wrong, this is one " VALID " subject that
    confuses and scares many hunters. As time permits I'll entry usefull
    information, but I leave for Vt. in a few days, so folks, go to it
    and lets make this interesting and a valid learning center for those
    who get confussed.
    
    	Red_With_Buck_Fever
    

    
    No wise crack stuff, like the time I tracked a deer for miles and found
    out it was being hauled into camp by another hunter????
    
    Cheers
    Leonard
    

    Here's a question for everyone...
    
    Saturday morning I shot at two deer near my folks house
    in Bow NH. It was pouring rain, and the area had been
    well covered by deer. Fresh tracks and droppings everywhere.
    I thought I hit the one I aimed at. It didn't go down, but
    sort of flinched in a strange way when I shot (12 gauge, about
    50 yds into the hardwoods). I waited a few minutes, but then 
    made the decision to go after it because I was fearful the
    blood trail would wash away. Well, I couldn't find a blood
    trail, but did pick up the tracks which I thought belonged to
    the deer I shot at. Within 50 ft these came into an area completely
    trampled, tracks going in to and out of this spot in about 4 different
    places, but quickly turned to solid ground up the side of some
    granite knolls and the tracks became almost impossible to pick up
    on. I spent a long time circling out from this area trying to
    find blood or hopefully the deer, but never found anything.
    
    So, my question is, should I have waited longer, hoping the deer
    would lie down near by and die (assuming I hit it....), or should
    I have gone immediately after it due to the rain ? I haven't tracked
    a deer in heavy rain before, and am not sure how fast blood washes
    away from the leaves that generally cover the ground here in New
    England now.
                                                      
    Marty

    	Wow, this is a tough one, not being there and all.
    
    	When gun hunting I go right after the critter. I let no time laps.
    This is more importaint when it's raining out. I took a 8 pointer
    a couple years ago that left next to no blood trail at all. If it had
    been raining I would have never found him. I did know I hit him hard
    because at the spot where he was when I shot there was a lot of hair
    and then one bound later a lot of blood. But the blood stopped in 5
    yards. It was a paunch shot and the contents of the gut had plugged the
    hole. No blood for many yards and then only specks now and then for the
    next 100 yards. I tracked on my hands and knees for the first 100yds.
    I finally jumped him and could track him on my feet untill he dropped
    some 400-500 yards later.
    
    	The method I use when blood is very light to almost none: as I find each
    spot I mark it with a stick. As you go you can look back and tell the line
    the deer is taking keeping yourself on track. Wounded deer don't usually
    make radical turns. When you look back at the line you can be fairly
    sure the next spot of blood will be within a few degrees of center
    line.
    
    	Steve

    
    Because of the weather conditions I agree with Steve.
    
    RAP
    

    
    re .0
    
    what woods?
    
    Apart from the roebuck I took recently my previous deer haven't been
    within miles of a tree, let alone woods...
    
    :-)
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    WHAT! No woods?
    
    Hey Everyone. Ian shot a Woodless Deer.  Wonder what they rub their
    antlers on?
    
    Ian you using a rifle? Here in New Hampshire the average visibility is
    30-35 yards. How long of a shot did you make?
    
    Make sure you enter into note 270.
    
    Congrats!
    
    Rick
    

    
    	 Last years buck was shot in pembroke ,nh also in the pouring rain.
    	The only way I was able to find it was to zig zag down through the 
    	woods until I was able to find a solid blood trail.
    
    	Sid

re .-2 (?) In northern Scotland where I've done my deer hunting the Red Deer are
creatures of the high moorland. Hunter and guide stalk as close as they can then
take the nominated deer. Shortest shot I've had was 300 yards, longest was 550.

They tend to rub their antlers on boulders...

Incidentally it is usual to take along pack horses to bring the carcase out, and 
some stalkers have the practice of letting the horses wander freely so that any 
slight noise the deer hears will be assumed by the deer to be caused by the 
horse they can see, not the hunter, they hopefully can't see. Hence the 
expression "a stalking horse".

I'll write up a proper entry for #270 some time.

/. Ian .\

    Speaking of tracking, has anyone used the spray tracking aid that
    turns blood florecent orange when sprayed on it? Does anyone know
    what this stuff is made of?
    
    Dennis

    Dennis - Make sure you get a good shot off the first time and you
    won't need artificial tracking aids!
    
    Just kidding....   j
    

    try hydrogen peroxide, it willo foam when contacting blood and is a lot 
    cheaper , color it if you like.....
    

     A week ago I shot my first deer with a bow. I've shot my share with a
    rifle and shotgun and thought I was about average on tracking skills.
     The deer last week was hit dead center through the liver.  The arrow
    also managed to hit the stomach.  The initial blood trail was thin.,
    then non-existant.  I found my arrow about ten yards from where the
    deer was when I shot. It was covered with green stomach contents. The
    initial blood was very dark.  The blood stopped after about 75 yds.
    From there it was done on hands and knees.  The ground was frozen (16
    deg.out).  We were able to pick up the tracks by noticing the slight
    depressions in the leaves.  Every time we found any blood or hair we
    marked the spot with surveyors tape.  By looking back along the line of
    tapes we could figure out the line of travel.  We spen about 90 minutes
    tracking this deer 150 yds to a stream.  We marked the spot with more
    tape and then walked down stream to a place where we could cross and
    then back up stream to the markers.  We found the deer less then 20 yds
    from the stream, dead.  He probably lived less the ten minutes after
    being shot.  Total time from begining to track and recovery was about 2
    hours.
    
    Things learned:
    
    - Be persistant.  Stay with it. The deer could be just around the
    corner.
    
    - Have a plan.  Don't just start walking.  You risk destroying
    additional sign that may help you.
    
    - Don't let other folks mess you up.  Keep them from destroying sign.
    
    - Mark your progress with tape.  It helps to esablish a line of travel.
    
    - Physical signs are great, but they don't always tell the truth.  My 
     deer was hit dead center through the liver, but the arrow indicated a 
     paunch hit.  The absence of blood was due to his tomach contents
     blocking both the entry and exit holes.
    
    _ Watch for blood on brush as well as on the ground.  You can get a
    good idea of where you hit them.  It's also easier to see sometimes.
    
    _ TAKE YOUR TIME!
    
    Jeff

    
    	Well, seeing as how there's not too much regarding "snow tracking"
    here, I'll put my experiences here.  I've read a few articles and books
    and have done some tracking.  By no means an expert yet, but I'll get 
    there.  My spike of last fall was shot while I was on a track...
    
    Ways to tell which sex the deer is:
    
    	It is sometimes difficult to tell what the sex of a deer is 
    solely from the track without following it for a ways.  This is
    especially true if it is a small or medium-sized buck.  When I 
    cut a track and the deer has a large track, long stride, wide
    space between the left and right tracks, is set into the ground
    very deeply, and the toes are somewhat splayed outward, it's
    a big buck.  You'll know this for sure when you follow him.
    
    An obvious sign is dribbling in the track while the deer is walking
    or hopping along.  During the rut a buck can't control his bladder
    when he gets excited.  If the track you're on crosses another deer
    track and there's dribbling there, you're onto a buck!!  There should
    be no question at that point.  In addition, I look for the othere 
    obvious signs such as a scrape or a rub that the deer made while
    you were tracking him (peelings on the snow, fresh dirt pawed on
    top of the snow).  Also, a buck tends to cruise in more or less of
    a straight line while looking for does.  He's out there testing the
    wind and looking for a hot doe.  Does meander along and dilly dally
    with no obvious purpose to their movements.  A buck can cover LOTS
    of ground in a night while looking for does.
    
    The dragging of feet in a track to me is not an absolute indicator
    of a buck, nor is the presence of dewclaw marks.  This sign can
    help confirm a buck track though, when you look at all the signs
    together.  The most important things for me are the attitude
    of the deer, and the dribbling sign.  The dewclaws will appear more
    and more in an excited buck track because he's walking differently,
    more flat-footed and stiff-leffed.  He's horned-up and maybe he's
    even ready for a fight.....  All he cares about is a hot doe and 
    this attitude should be obvious in his track, especially if he's
    found one!  
    
    More later, anyone else care to join in??
    
    - Rob
    

    Rob the dragging of the feet is a good indicator of a buck if the snow
    isn't very deep(0 to 2 inches). But it's not a reliable indicator if
    the snow is deep. Bucks don't pick their feet up as high when they walk
    as does do, but when the snow is deeper all deer will drag their feet.
    One other point to bring up if you want to try tracking is to spend 
    very little time looking at the tracks and a lot of time looking all
    around you as your tracking. Plus pick a spot to hunt where the hunting
    pressure is light so you don't chase the deer into another hunter.
    This is the greatest way to hunt. Your interest is always high because
    you know their is a deer not to far ahead of you and when you become
    good at it you know your following a buck almost all the time.
    
    Bruce

    
    	Part 2...  The "End-Around" or Straight in?
    
    "End-Around" is a technique some people use when tracking a deer and
    they're getting close.  To me this technique is somewhat controversial,
    but maybe effective if you know your hunting area very well.  That is,
    if you know it well enough to know where the likely bedding spots are.
    The problem is that you really don't know where that deer is going to
    bed down, so you may end up wasting time to find out that the deer 
    really didn't bed down where you thought he would. 
    	It goes like this...  when you're on a track and the signs are
    telling you that the deer is ready to be down, you leave the track and
    loop around to come in at the deer from the side.  Almost always, a
    deer will lay facing his backtrail when he beds down, and most likely
    in a tough spot to see him if you go straight in on his track.  
    I know people who hunt this way but who are rarely successful...
    The tough part is figuring out excactly where to expect the deer to
    lay.
    
    Straight-in:
    
    	If you listen to the Benoits, they'll tell you they crawl on 
    their bellies when they get close.  Leaning over to scan under the
    trees helps here, but I'm not so sure about crawling, unless you're
    going under some brush or something.  My current theory is that it
    won't be movement totally that'll scare the wits out of the deer, 
    but it will be how you move when you're getting close.  An extremely
    slow motion movement seems to be the best bet, that includes when you
    pick your feet up as well as put them down.  Shuffling your feet helps,
    taking very short steps.  Eliminate all upper body movement and use
    your eyes only - no swaying to the side, and twisting your head in all
    directions!   quick, jerky movements and you'll be going home empty 
    handed.  There's a noter in here (Bruce Moultroup) that moves this 
    way through the woods  - like a cat.  When he creeps up on you, he'll
    see you before you see him, and you'll jump out of your skin cause
    he'll be so close.  You have to take your time...
    
    	Times to move fast, times to pusyfoot:
    
    	If you're on a track that appears to be a deer ranging, you'll
    have to move on him to catch him.  You'll be able to tell this from
    the tracks.  He won't be stopping, he'll be straight-lining it for the
    next mountain, and it'll probably be on the next mountain when you
    catch him if you do.  I learned this year that a buck can cover 
    an incredible amount of ground in a night, and the tracks you'll be
    following in the morning are going to be most likely made the night 
    before or early in the morning.  Of course, you'll have to be able
    to tell how old the track is, but if you really start following deer
    tracks, this will come to you.  Pussyfoot when close, go straight-in
    or do the "end-around", whichever you prefer.  
    
    	- Be ready to shoot fast, if you're really lucky, you'll see him 
    before he sees you - then you won!
    
    - Rob
    

    
    	Gee Bruce, you were in here at the same time, hope you don't mind
    me mentioning your name?  have a good day - Rob
    

    another good indicator that your following a buck in a dusting of sonw
    in that when a buck is walking his gait is different than a does.
    
    A doe walks with a straight gait, meaning that if you drew an
    imaginary line directly under the middle of her body her left hooves 
    would stay on the left side and the right hooves would stay on the
    right side of this imaginary line.
     
    A buck however wild cross this imaginary line with all four hooves.
    almost like he's strutting his stuff... ;^)
    
    it's worked everytime for me when i've been fortunate enough to be
    tracking in snow.
    
    Fra

    One thing that I'd heard and didn't really think about 'til now is that
    a wounded deer will usually run downhill.  Another point is that
    gut-shot deer will generally run to water.  My brother shot a deer 
    quartering away from him, so the bullet entered in front of the left
    rear leg and exited right under the skin behind the front right leg.  
    Since the bullet really churned up the insides and the entry wound got 
    clogged, the blood trail just stopped after a little while.  We found 
    the deer in a creek downhill from where the trail stopped.
    
    It makes sense that they'd run downhill when wounded, but why they run
    to water beats me.
    
    Scott
                  

    
    
    
       Well through my many experiences of tracking the thing I found out
    with why a deer will run to water when gut shot is they will lay in the
    cool water to try and stop the bleeding, I saw a doe that a freind of
    mine shot in archery season do this, I actually caught her in the water
    then she run 100 yrds up hill into a cut over and 10.5 hrs later we
    finally got her.
        On this perticular tracking excursion it was in daylight the whole
    time, she never went over 300 yrds from the place she was shot but she
    stood on stumps walked down logs and crawled under brush piles, and she
    was a yearling deer! 
       This last bow season the same freind shot a 160 lb doe low through
    the stomach and first thing she did was run up hill to the water then
    stopped layed in the water the continued up hill, 5 hrs later with a
    sprained ankle sore ribs and blood all over me we finally got her.
      As I was tracking her I was crawling along and the next thing I new
    I didnt have any breath, you cant imagine how it feels to be kicked in
    the ribs by a deer, I never saw her laying in the briars, of course the
    blood trail was very poor it was 11:30 pm had been hunting all day and
    this deer came to quite a suprise to me, she really got frantic when I 
    grabbed her hind feet. I figured it was all I could do to help protect
    my face from the hooves, shortly afterwords we were able to put her
    down for good.
    
          I for one will not give up on a deer, I have tracked alot of deer
    in the 15 yrs I have been hunting and I havent lost one yet. but I am
    by no means the best tracker in the woods but I sure can hold my
    ground. I hate to find deer dead when Im out walking in the woods.
        Did anyone ever try peroxide for tracking purposes? it doesnt turn
    yellow like that other product on the market but it does fizz when it
    comes in contact with blood and it only costs about 80 cents a bottle.
    
                                                  Just my .02 worth
    
                                                       Lee
    

	It has been my understanding that a gut shot animal heads for water due 
to the burning pain that a gut shot inflicts.  They will drink water to ease the
pain, but it only makes it worse.  Not a pretty picture.
	Jim (who regrets having made a few of this hits)

                                                       
    
      Well Sundays muzzle loading hunting has brought up some questions
    for me which I hope you all can answer. 
    
    AT about 8:00 am I had a deer come walking buy at a quick rate. I was
    in a tree stand right near some rubs and have been watching this deer
    for a couple of weeks with the bow but havent been able to get a shot
    off.. Here it was, I lead it slightly and shot...It turned and went
    back the way it came into some pines but I never saw it leave the
    pines.. I was sure I hit it.. I got down and searched for three hours
    looking for blood, but couldnt find any..   
    
       Question: When a deer is hit with a bullet, I was using a 50
    caliber, should there be blood right in the spot of the shot?? I have
    only gotten one deer with a bow and was fortunate enough not having to
    track it because I seen were it dropped..I thought I have read that
    sometimes th eblood trail may start several yard away from were it was
    hit..
    
      While looking for blood, two deer came running in, one was
    the buck I was hoping to see, and it was a big one. The other deer was
    a doe, maybe the one I shot at. Well I couldnt get any shot off because it
    was too thick so I watched them leave.. Soon after I heard three slow
    shots...Curious to see if they hit the buck, I headed towards the shots.
    Four guys were following a blood trail and said that they hit a big
    buck...One guy said they had found were it bedded down and there was a
    big pool of blood.. Well I went back to my stand to take it down and
    wanted to see this deer...When I got back to the truck I noticed that
    they were gone..I headed into some thick stuff were I had jumped deer
    before, which was across the road from were they hit the buck, and
    found a blood trail which I followed until dark. I believe those guys
    left without ever finding the deer.
    
    Question: If a deer thats been hit dies during the night and you go
    back for it the next day, will the meat be ruined?? 
    
    I dont like the idea of a wounded deer and believe that it may have
    died during the night.. The blood was bright red, and may have been a
    lung shot...I couldnt sleep all night thinking about that buck and
    would like to continue my search, what do you guys think???
    
    Sorry about the length of the note but I wanted to set the stage...
    
     Gus

      To try and answer some of your questions:
    
    Blood trails don't always start imediately.  I've seen deer go for a
    while and then start to bleed.  If the wound is high in the chest
    cavity, You may have to wait for the chest to fill with blood before 
    the deer start leaving much sign.  One thing you will almost always 
    have is hair.  Try looking for hair to indicate a hit, rather then
    blood.
    
     Whether a deer left in the woods all night is edible depends on alot
    of factors.  One is the weather.  Is it warm out, or did the temp drop
    into the 30's?  The colder it is the better your chances are.  Another 
    factor is where the deer was hit.  A paunch shot deer will wreck meat 
    alot faster then one hit in the neck.
    
    Jeff

    
    >   Question: When a deer is hit with a bullet, I was using a 50
    >caliber, should there be blood right in the spot of the shot?? I have
    >only gotten one deer with a bow and was fortunate enough not having to
    >track it because I seen were it dropped..I thought I have read that
    >sometimes th eblood trail may start several yard away from were it was
    >hit..
    
    Nope, there may be no blood trail for quite some time. Especially from
    your situation. You shot from above the animal. There probably would
    not be a blood trail right away unless the bullet came out the other
    side of the deer. Since I don't know anything about muzzleloader power
    I can't say how likely this is.  If there is no exit wound there
    probably won't be a blood trail until the deer bleeds enough to 
    fill up the body cavity to the point of the entry wound.
    
    Since you thought you hit the deer, i would suggest the following
    action (not sure if you did this from your note):
    
    1) Check out the shot sight for blood, hair, bone etc. Hair will be 
       there if you hit it, but it would be very VERY hard to see without
       snow since a good hit will produce short clippings, while a 
       grazing hit may pull chunks off.
    
    2) Wait for some time (some recommend 30 - 45 minutes.
    
    3) Start tracking.  Keep on the track until you find it, it gets dark
       or you convince yourself you missed. Look for drops of blood,
       without an exit wound there may not be a big blood trail.
    
    >Question: If a deer thats been hit dies during the night and you go
    >back for it the next day, will the meat be ruined?? 
    
    Nope the meat should be fine. I am not sure where you are but 
    air temp would be the key. The colder the better. Once the animal
    dies he will start to cool off, a night in the woods would not
    severly hurt the meat, just dress it and cool it as fast as you can.
                                                                
    From what the other guys said someone hit it. I can't tell if they
    jumped it out of its bed then shot it, or shot it then later found
    the bed. I hope they went back and found it. I believe in NH you are
    suppose to notify a warden if you leave a shot animal in the woods over
    night.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    
    Thanks for the reply...
    
      I did try to find hair where I thought I hit the deer, but I
    could'nt find any. Last night was down in the forties..Now how could I
    tell if the meat was spoiled or not??? I don't believe I hit that deer
    and not having been able to see were she ran to makes matters more
    difficult.. When I was following the blood trail, from what I think was
    the buck that was hit, I did find some doe droppings that seemed to
    have been from that morning...Could the doe be running with this buck,
    or am I totally of the wall here...
    
    Gus

    
    
       re:27
    
    
       From what he told me they were tracking it after it was shot and
    then found were it had laid down...I can't see how they could have
    dressed it out and dragged before I got back to the truck...By the way,
    this did happen in N.H.
                            

    
    re .29
    
    That's what I thought you said :-)
    
    As for not dressing and dragging, (I know you didn't say it, but...)
    
    Not all people believe in Field dressing deer. I went to a lodge in
    N. carolina a couple of years ago and they didn't believe in the need
    to field dress deer. They said all it did was put gut piles in the
    woods.  THey brought the deer out, guts and all and skinned/dress and
    halfed it when they got home, then hung the meat to cool.
    
    Personally I was taught to gut all deer (and rabbits) as soon as
    possible, this means in the woods.  They may have figured they were
    leaving anyway, so why not just toss it in the truck and home we go.
    
    To each his own...
    
    
    --Bob
    

    I wouldn't be concerned about the meat spoiling as I have been involved
    in many hunts where deer were shot in the evening, and not located til
    the next day. The only exception was one deer that coyotes got to
    before we found it!
    
    Why aren't you out there now? It sounds like you did finally find a
    blood trail, on the other side of the road before you left. Did I
    misinterpret something?
    
    Barry

    
    
    Well I left work yeterday at 10:00am grabbed my stuff at home, the wife
    thought I was nuts :'), and headed out with the hopes of finding this deer.
    To my surprise, as I was driving down the road, there was the man who
    shot the buck with his wife trying to find the blood trail...He said
    that it did cross the road. I explained to him what I found and took
    him to the spot were I had lost the blood trail myself..He told me that
    he had hit the buck in the head because that was the only shot that it
    offered him. 
    
    He was sorry that he didnt wait a half hour to an hour after the first
    bed that he had found, but he said he did that to a deer he shot
    in Vermont and when he finally started tracking it , another hunter
    was already on it..Needless to say he lost that deer..
    
    We searched for hours at the last spot of blood, but couldnt find
    anymore. We decided to split up and try to circle the area, nothing!
    I told him it seemed to be heading in a west south/west direction, so he
    went to were he has seen them bed down before (west), I kept zig zagging
    back and forth in a south/westerly direction...I'm sorry to say that we
    couldnt find and other sign..I was totally exhausted with the search...
    
    As far as the deer I shot at, I'm confident that I did not hit it.
    Thanks for the replies...Maybe I'll have better luck next time...:')
                                                                   
    Gus

    
    	Gus,
    		I just picked up a new book from OUtdoor Life Book club - 
    It's called "Trailing Whitetails" by John Trout Jr.   I've read about
    half of it and it's good.  It answers all the questins you were asking
    earlier; I recommend it for everyone who deer hunts.  A whole book
    on tracking wounded whitetails - both from a rifle and bow hunters
    perspective.
    	As for the authors response to your questions.  He says on Rifle
    hit deer you should trail immediately, and that deer only stiffen up
    AFTER they die (rigor-mortise).  He also says that it's very rare
    to find blood at the impact site.  Usually hair, but no blood. He 
    says to really pay attention to the deer's reaction when/if hit.
    Lot's of times a deer will hunch up and tuck it's tail, or blast out
    of there at warp II, splitting off from any other deer that may be in
    the group. 
    
    	I gotta tell ya a story....  When I was 15 years old I was hunting
    with my dad and uncle.  I shot at a buck that was perhaps 100-120 yards
    away down in the hardwoods with a .243.  I clearly missed the
    first shot because the deer just jumped once and stopped.  On the 2nd
    shot, the deer seemed to disappear.  The doe ran directly up the hill
    toward me, but I couldn't see what happened to the buck...  The two
    were just on the edge of my vision when I shot, so I figured he ran the
    other way -  away from me.
    	I went to the site, found some scuff marks from where he ran, but
    no blood or hair -  I figured that I'd just missed again on the second
    shot.  I didn't even try to follow his tracks for a ways.  I went up 
    on the side hill and sat for a half hour (just before dark) and headed
    back to the truck - wondering how the heck I could've missed!
    
    	Well, my dad never gave up on me! He asked me a ton of questions!!
    Asked me what the deer did when I shot - I told him it "just
    disappeared, ran off the other way".  he asked about the tracks, I told
    him there were marks where the deer jumped, but no blood or hair!!!
    He told me that I had hit the deer and that it was dead, laying up
    there on the side hill!!!  I was shocked at how convinced he was,
    almost to the point on non-believing (yeah dad, you're crazy).  The
    next day was a school day, and he said we were going back up to find
    the deer, that he'd write me a note when we got back, and that he'd
    "give me a good swift kick in the butt" when we found it!
    
    	To make a long story short, about 200 feet uphill from where I shot
    lay a 160# 6-pt buck, heart shot, wrapped around a tree in a small 
    depression!!  I flipped, and yes, my dad did give me a swift kick in the 
    butt - more of a symbolic thing than anything else -didn't hurt. Boy did 
    I learn a lesson that day.  So far, it's the largest deer I've ever 
    gotton!!  Thanks Dad.
    
    - Rob

    
    
     Hi Bob,
    
           Thanks for the info. I'll try and find that book or something
    similar to it.. I hope my notes were to confusing! The blood trail we
    followed I'm sure was the bucks and not the doe...When I shot at the
    doe, it didnt hunch up or bolt out of there..It just turned around and
    went back..I'm sure I didnt lead it enough. I made a good hundred yard
    half circle sweep of the area that I shot it in. Another thing that
    leads me to believe that it wasnt hit is that when I was bow hunting
    the area I would see the doe but not the buck. I only got to see a rump
    once that was pretty big running off.. When I saw the two deer while
    looking for blood,"sunday" ,one was the buck and the other was the doe,
    which didnt appear to be hurt at all. The guy who shot the buck said it
    was leading the doe, they were running together... 
    
    I cant understand it, every year I get at least one shot in N.H. with a
    bow or a gun, max of two shots, and every year something goes wrong..I
    can go down the range and put four inch groups at 50 yards with the
    muzzle loader or the shot gun, and I go to the 3d shoots and score in
    the 190's to 200's but when I shoot at deer, I always miss..Is there a
    book or class that helps you get rid of buck fever? :') 
    
    Gus
    
    p.s. This was the first time that I wasnt sure that I missed, all the
    other times I was positive...

RE: .25, .34

>    AT about 8:00 am I had a deer come walking buy at a quick rate. I was
>    ...
>    off.. Here it was, I lead it slightly and shot...It turned and went
>    back the way it came into some pines but I never saw it leave the

>    went back..I'm sure I didnt lead it enough. I made a good hundred yard
>    half circle sweep of the area that I shot it in. Another thing that


How far away was the deer?  What kind of load were you using in the .50 
muzzle loader?  How fast is a quick rate?  Let's try a little math and
some assumptions:

  1.  If you were using a roundball and about 100 gr FFg then your 
      bullet should have an initial velocity close to 2000 feet per second.

  2.  If the deer was 50 yards (150 ft) away then it should take less
      than 0.1 second for the bullet to reach the deer.

  3.  A man has to hike right along to exceed 4 mph.  I'm guessing that a
      deer walking quickly would be around 6 mph (about 9 feet per second).

  4.  The deer in this case would travel 0.9 feet in the time it takes for
      the bullet to get there.  Even if you were holding on the heart, you
      should have still hit the deer in the gut.  If you had daylight between
      your sight and the deer, you probably shot in front of it.

These are all rough approximations and my assumptions may be way off.
Does anyone else have thoughts on how much to lead a deer?

    
    re: -2
    
    I'll second that book your reading Rob! I've read it cover to cover
    myself and I'd recommend it to anyone who hunts deer. It is of course
    one mans opinion, but this guy has based his *facts* on years of
    experience and scientific data. Puts a few of those arguments you
    have among friends to rest!
    
    In fact, it seems like the type of book you'd want to keep around and
    read once a year to refresh the memory. Somewhat embaressing was a
    couple of weeks back, I was reading the book down on my honeymoon in
    the bahamas...getting pumped up for deer season this weekend. Anyhow
    this guy starts walking around the pool with a micerophone looking for
    volunteers for pool games. I tried to look buried in my book but
    he came over anyway and announced to all "..and what's this book you're
    reading....Hmmm 'Trailing Whitetails'... Red faced I joined the games-;)
    
    Good reading anyway!
    5 days, 4 hours but whos counting!!			/ Andrew /
    
    

    
    
     re:35
    
    I'm using about 90gr. of FF and I remember putting the bead in front of
    the deer by a foot???? I remember the muzzle going up on me, so I think
    during the excitement of seeing the deer I held the gun to loosely,
    also causing it to kick up...What I hated to say is that the deer was
    about 25 yards away and I was shooting from a tree stand... Yesterday I
    took a couple of shots at a tree stump at @30 yards away and I'll be
    damned, I hit @ 4 inches to the left on the first shot but the second
    was dead on at what I was aiming..I probably did lead it to much and
    I'm sure not holding the gun tightly did'nt help any...Oh well thanks
    for the replies...I'll get one yet in N.H. I hope...:')
    
    Gus
       

Gus,

Given what I know now, you probably only needed a 4 inch lead (maybe 6 inches
if you were using the slower and much heavier maxi-ball).  If you had put the 
bead right on her shoulder, she would be in the pot.  

I think the lead you used would have been more appropriate if she had been
in a flat out run.

At least you got off the shot.  Sunday AM, I was sitting with my back against
a tree with my muzzle loader leaning against another tree handy by.  I heard
steps, looked, and saw a hunter walking up the deer trail about 30 yards out.
We acknowledged each other and I watched/listened as he moved on out of sight.
When I turned to face front I said to myself "If I didn't know better I'd say
that looked like a ... oh oh".  Sure enough, a fork horn was sniffing that
hunter's tracks.  I started to reach for my gun but he caught the movement
and looked up.  I played statue while he acted nervous.  Finally he bolted 
and the bigger buck behind him took off too.  Since I don't like to shoot at
running deer with a M/L, I hoped one of them would stop where I could get a 
shot - no such luck.  Maybe next week.

 - Dave

    
    
    Dave,
    
        One thing I never did practice before was at a running deer shoot.
    I have shot trap before, but that and duck hunting is the only leading
    that I have done.. :')...Oh yea I forgot to mention that I am using the
    maxi-ball. Well now I know not to lead it that much anymore and maybe
    next time I will have better luck...Good luck to all....
    
    Gus

    
    Information from "Trailing Whitetails" by John Trout Jr. :
    
    I've been through the book on all the hits you could make on a 
    deer and here's the scoop:  (BTW, there's an earlier note on the
    subject of a gut shot 8-pointer in here somewhere...couple of years 
    back - some of the recommendations made were absolutely wrong)
    
    Area Hit		Blood 		What to do:
    -----------		-------- 	-------------------------------------
    Heart		Crimson red	Trail immediately
    
    Lungs		Frothy pink	""	"
    
    Kidney		dark red	Deer will bleed out within 80 yds
    					with massive blood trail, often
    					better than heart shot.  Kidneys
    					are small and usually hit by 
    					chance.
    
    Liver		Med to dark red, Deer will live 2-4 hours, should
    					wait at least 2 hrs before trailing.
    					Deer will not stop bleeding until
    					it dies.  usually beds quickly.
    
    Paunch		very Dark red	Deer will live 4-8 hours - wait
    (includes 				at least 4 hours to trail.  the deer
    	intestines)			will bed within 200 yds of being hit
    					and will eventually die.  leave 
    					quietly and return later.  trail 
    					slowly and quietly (max of 2 people)
    					very little blood trail if any. 
    					one person trail, one person watch.
    					do not push.
    
    neck		medium red	If the cartoid arterie is hit, deer	
    					will die within 80-100 yds.  If 
    					muscle hit, the deer will be very
    					difficult to find.  most heal and
    					completely recover. 
    
    loin,brisket	medium red	chances of recovery are slim to
    					none.  deer will heal and recover.
    					a good blood trail at first but slims 
    					to none after about 200-300 yds.
    					If aortic arterie (just under back-
    					bone) is hit, the deer will bleed
    					out within seconds.  
    
    rear leg,hip	medium red	deer will usually bed soon and 
    					lose rear leg muscle control. usually
    					a high loss of blood, even if femoral
    					arterie is not hit.  a 2nd shot is
    					sometimes required, recovery is good.
    

    re .40
    
      Hmmm, that explains why the deer that I got with the bow this year
    bled so profusely, and why I was able to recover it so quickly... I
    shot the deer in the backbone just above the gut (sorta between the
    chest cavity and the hindquarters). I was aiming for the chest. The
    deer was about 25 yards away, and wouldn't you know the arrow hit a
    branch and deflected (#$%&**&^#% !!!)...
    
      Anyway, I noticed after the hit that her hindquarters were nearly 
    useless and that she basically dragged them down the hill. That was
    encouraging enough, but when I started to track the deer I couldn't
    believe the blood trail. It was astounding how much that deer was
    bleeding! Now I know why. I hit the aortic artery that runs along the
    backbone  area !!!
    
      Sounds like that book is good reading!
    
    
    Joe

    I'd just like to make a little comment regarding tracking and sign or
    lack there-of after a shot has been made.
    
    I shot a 7 pointer in VT this year during the rifle season, hit it in
    the chest with a .270 from approx 25-35 yds... it ran approx 10 yards.
    I backtracked from where the deer lay dead to where it was standing and
    found absolutely no blood or flesh or hair between where it was hit and
    where it died.  There was however a large amount of white hair at the 
    site of the hit... To most people this would have indicated a really low
    hit, and probably not a mortal wound, at least from everything I hear
    and read thats what it means...  I'll think twice now before I pass it
    off as such.  
    
    Now I realize that 10 yards dosn't give the deer a whole
    lot of time to bleed, but there was no blood under the body where it
    lay for 5-10 minutes or down the hill to where i dragged it before 
    gutting it out (40 yard drag down hill).  
    
    Had this deer not dropped dead in front of me it would have been a
    horific tracking job...  unless of course it would have eventually
    started to drop blood.  As an aside, not one vital was hit on this
    deer, the bullet entered and exited the chest without touching the heart
    liver or lungs, it did however break the shoulder upon exiting, It died
    of hydrostatic shock in a matter of seconds.
    
    Sooo whats the point, your asking...  Just a reminder that lack of sign
    does not necessarily mean a non-mortal wound, and that every situation
    is different. Lack of flesh or bone chips or blood or hair or the wrong
    color hair, may or may not prove anything...  so, check it out
    carefully before passing off any animal as lost or "will recover".
    
    FWIW,  Fra
    
    PS, I heard that a guy in Leominster this past weekend shot at 2 bucks,
    missed one (who knows though???) and shot the leg out from under the
    other at 11:00 AM, tracked it for an hour and passed it off as lost...
    come on now, the thing is bleeding and theres snow on the ground, the 
    deer is leaving a very distinctive track and this guy didn't stick it
    out and continue on the track???  unbelievable!! It's disgusting.
                     
    

	Fra's comments make me think about: I have also seen exit
	wounds directly from bone which bled very little or not
	at all. In general to get a good blood trail, exit wounds
	are required (IMHO), but obviously they don't always
	work as perfect as that. No exit wound => almost surely
	a poor bloodtrail (I know there are exceptions).

						- Mike

    Lack of blood is bad, but other things can help tracking. A friend
    of mine hit a deer too far back, the arrow luckily hit the femoral,
    or leg artery, but there was no blood trail. The deer lost use of 
    his rear leg, causing him to drag it and scuff the leaves heavily.
    He was not hard to follow. 

    How do you hit a main artery, and not have any blood? I believe
    this could occur in the body cavity where holes could become blocked
    with fat, or intestines, and such....therefore keeping all bleeding
    internal. 
    
    Where does the blood from a severed artery go if it's hit in the leg?
    
    Maybe he severed tendons, bone, or ligaments to lead the deer to losing
    the use of his leg.....or maybe the deer was wearing rubber boots.

    I was wondering that myself... I hit a spikehorn in VT a few years ago
    in the femoral arterie and had a hellacious amount of blood... The deer
    was at such a severe quartering away angle to me that if I missed the
    chest cavity, the arrow was either going hit it in the rear femoral 
    arterie area and continue on into the chest cavity, or totally miss.  
    fortunately things worked out and the arrow hit a little further back 
    and severed the arterie before continuing on into the liver...
    
    The blood streaming out of the leg area was just incredible. that deer
    died in minutes.  Two years later another guy shot a deer in the
    femoral arterie, and all through the tracking you would have thought it
    had had it's heart shot out.  Blood was just everywhere.
    
    Personally I think arrow shot deer are much easier to track... IMHO
    
    I realize that one other way to track deer is by watching for scuffed up
    leaves and dirt... but in some area where the ground is so hard packed
    or theres been some heavy traffic, locating it by this way alone could
    be fruitless.  I does help whenever you lose the blood trail... and by
    following the turned over leaves, i've picked up the blood trail again
    many times.
    
    FWIW,  Fra

    Well, the deer had the arrow in him while he ran, so the femoral may
    have been cut as he ran and the arrow worked in deeper. Also, there's
    a lot of hair there so much of the blood may have been absorbed.
    As I said, the unique 'drag' marks in the leaves were easy to follow,
    so looking for blood wasn't a high priority at the time. 

>  I hit a spikehorn in VT a few years ago in the femoral arterie 
>  and had a hellacious amount of blood...        ^^^^^^^


Do bucks have FEmoral arteries?  I'd think they'd have just plain 
moral arteries 8^).  Does, on the other hand, should have the femoral 
arteries...

Scott

    Scott,
    
    didn't you know... bucks have no morals whatsoever... ;^)
    
    Fra