Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

Mark,

Check the firearms notes conference.  There are several discussions
in there about muzzleloaders.

Jerry

    
    Mark,
    
    Sounds like you did everything possibile. When it rains very hard
    all-day I would probably fire and clean it at end of day.
    
    As far as during the day while hunting, I would try and keep the breech
    as dry as i could, but you'll never know, that's the risk you take 
    with blk-powder.
    
    You say you were in a tent, did you have heat, lanterns that would of
    increased the temp in the tent? If so, this once happen to me, thou I
    was in a cabin, The temp change caused condensation within the barrel
    thus dampened the powder. What I do now is leave the gun in the truck
    or outside, never bringing it into an area of different temp.
    
    I must say though, the only time I did have a real problem was when i 
    spent the entire day hunting in a hard down-pour.
    
    Rick
    

    
    Mark,
    
            I have a question, what type of powder are you using?
    
    
                                                              Guy
    
    

    Heat ! I wish there was. No I did not have a heater or latern,
    flashlights where it. The inside of the tent wasn't wet, like
    from condenstation, humidity was real high though like 100%.
    
    Another reason I didn't want to fire the thing off was because getting
    a fire started to boil water and clean it was about impossible. I used
    alittle military stove to cook on, it stayed lit long enough to heat
    water for coffee and that was it. (used the little fire bricks, no gas)
    
    If you shoot one off, is cleaning it out with dry patches enough ? I
    went through a few patches until they wern't black after tunning them
    down the barrel.
    
    Sounds like just taping plastic over everything is about the best you
    can do. I'll have to see if I can come up with somthing to fit over the
    nipple, by next year. 
    
    Thanks, keep it coming.
    mark

    
    If you "touch off" the gun, you *have* to clean it the
    right way!!! Not only are you risking rust, but the residue
    can attract moisture and foul your charge. (Hell, it seems
    that looking at the damn thing sideways can attract moisture).
    
    Lcaking hot soapy water, the best thing to use is Hoppes 
    No 9 + blackpowder solvent. It works OK.....note that this
    is different stuff than the usual Hoppes nitro solvent.
    
    The old-timers used beesway around the capped nipple. I realize
    that it looks kinda hairy having the cap on the gun whilst
    walking around (and that the T/C instruction book says to only
    cap as you prepare to fire), but consider that without the cap
    on, you have a direct line wide open to the charge (through
    the nipple). Some guys also use condoms over the end of the
    barrel in a rainstorm.....although some feel that this is an
    extreme measure, as closing the barrel can invite condensation;
    again fouling your charge. I personally just try to keep the
    cap dry and the muzzle pointing downward (which is safer anyway
    if the gun is capped).
    
    I've got a very small stash of some latex cap covers that I
    picked up some years back. Lacking that, the beeswax will do
    fine. I've also seen covers made of leather used over the
    hammer area, or Saran Wrap......personally, this would get in
    my way assuming I was going for the hammer in a snapshooting
    situation.
    
    Other stuff....."hotshot nipples" work best with Pyrodex, but
    again have a bigger flash hole; thereby inviting more moisture.
    I target shoot with Pyrodex, but hunt with black powder only. Its
    a known fact that Pyrodex has a higher ignition point, and I once
    had a misfire in the wet using it.....never again. It does work
    well at the range, though, you don't have to swab the bore as much
    because it doesn't foul as quickly.
    
    DRY THE BORE COMPLETLY PRIOR TO LOADING!!! I used to just wipe
    it till I got clean patches, then charge the gun. I also used
    to get misfires. Its amazing how little moisture it takes to
    foul the charge.....and how much can hide in the breech after
    cleaning. Get paper towels down there into past the touchhole
    and make damn sure you don't load until they come out *dry*!!!
    
    Don't snap caps prior to loading....the residue can/will attract
    moisture. Be methodical and careful about cleaning, drying and
    loading the gun and have confidence in what you do.....it'll go
    off. Don't touch off unless you got the thing *soaked* and don't
    bring it into a warm cabin at night (no problem with your tent :-).
    Condensation is every bit as bad for that charge as direct water.
    
    In summation, watch every step and do what you can to insure the
    powder stays dry. There's more to it than simply ramming home a
    charge. Since I started doing all of the above, I've *never* had
    a misfire, in some miserable wet to boot.....and neither have the
    guys I hunted with. Now, about shooting and missing, thats another
    story :-)
                                       
    DAP
    

    
     Mark,
     I had several similar problems early on in my blackpowder days,
    but it came down to switching caps in my case.  The standard
    cap just didn't quite have the spark it seems when I was in
    wet weather. By switching to Dynamit-Nobel ( RWS ) brand caps
    and stoking up with black powder ( not pyrodex ) I have been
    hang-fire free for several years.
     I really couldn't make any other recommendations beyond the others
    already noted.
    
     best of luck,
    
    	-jro
    

    I agree with DAP in .5

    Always keep the gun at the ambient outdoors temperature.

    I use a loose plastic bag over the muzzle - not sealed - just
    enough to keep drips out if the muzzle is ever raised - it doesn't
    interfere with firing.  If you've got a good bullet and/or patch
    seal you shouldn't have moisture infiltration via the barrel.

    I use black powder only and I use the hotshot nipples with hot
    caps.

    I don't like carrying primed, so I clean out spent caps (so they
    don't attract moisture) and keep one of them over the nipple with
    the hammer down till ready to prime.  I also keep a nipple pick
    handy and use it after each shot along with a soaked #9 patch down
    the barrel and as full a cleaning as I can give it at night.  You
    may want to check the nipple for fouling (remove with a nipple
    wrench) and make sure that the area under the nipple port is clean
    and dry (this is the powder that HAS to catch from the cap - the
    rest will follow assuredly).

    You may want to preload bullet [,patch if you're using round ball]
    and dry powder at home into those quickloader tubes rather than
    carrying a flask and powder measure into the field where it can be
    exposed to moisture.

	Good huntin'

	    Mike

    Gotta agree with .6 - _real_ black powder and RWS caps makes
    for almost guaranteed kaBOOM

    
    This might be properly re-titled as "the official stinkpole
    note" or something....but I'm in agreement with the RWS caps.
    They really do seem to ignite better/hotter than Remingtons
    or CCIs for me....you mileage may vary.
    
    One interesting thing is the fit of the caps on the nipple
    itself. Some caps fit some nipples better, worse or not at
    all. I've had to pinch Remington caps on some BP rifles...and
    also had them still fall off. I've also had some caps that
    you had to really cram down to get them to fit on the nipple;
    this is not especially safe :-). Moral of the story, make sure
    the cap fits tight but not too tight.
    
    To go off on a slight tangent, I'd like to point out the fact
    that some guys hunt with a cap on and some don't. I mentioned
    earlier that the T/C instruction book says to only cap prior
    to firing. I also noticed this in the book that came with my
    buddy's New Englander when they first came out as a shotgun 
    only....we used to joke about flushing a grouse and trying to
    shoulder the gun, lead the bird and cap at the same time. :-)
    Me, I've only got the two hands, and I always figgered that T/C
    put that paragraph in the book to cover their asses in today's
    lawsuit-happy society. I never thought anybody would pay attention
    to it...(and thats not a "dig" at anybody that does).
    
    Anyway, for New England jumpshooting of deer, I've walked too
    many miles for too many V-days to lose an opportunity to get
    that big buck that waits till you are on top of him to bound out
    of the thicket. I simply can't see where I would have ever had 
    the chance to cap up and still get the bastard. Of course, some
    might feel that it is unsafe to haul around a capped gun and
    would not feel like it was an opportunity lost, given the same
    scenario.
    
    Of course, I am making the assumption that one knows where the
    safety position is on the hammer cocks, and uses it. I came
    across one hunter on Mt. Wachusett a few years back....capped
    Renegade being hauled one-handed onder the balance point..with
    the hammer *full back*. I cleared outta there right quick!!
    
    Opinions?
    
    DAP
    

    I hunt with the hammer at half cock position, as does everybody i've
    ever hunted smokepole with.  I've seen guys with it at full cock, and
    have told them to put it on safe (as have others)...  they get
    embarrassed, but being told once is enough to make em realize how 
    dangerous it is.
    
    I see no problem with it, and obviously no one i've ever smokepoled
    with does either.
    
    Fra

    
    The reason I asked in re.3 which powder has been answered, from the
    sounds of our fellow members and a contact I have/had at Thompson
    Center Arms Pyrodex is opioned to be great for target practice but not
    for hunting in the field. As for how the different caps fit on the
    nipples I asked the same question and the reply was "When the nipples
    are made they have a tolerance level +/- of the size and nipples that
    are manufactured at different times can/will have different fits. In 
    speaking for myself and all of my family (9) that hunt with "Smokepoles"
    we ALL use FFg blackpowder and most also use RWS caps. I have never had
    a hang/misfire in the 12 years of hunting with this type of firearm,
    and I count my blessing for that.
    
                                                          Guy
    

This seems like a good place to sidetrack, so I think I will.  In the
previous reply, the author stated that he used FFg powder.  Would you
mind telling us what caliber rifle you use?  Also, any comments from
others on the choice of powder (you know, the number of Fs).

The reason I ask is because I recently purchased a black powder rifle
(it's a 50 caliber) and the guy at the store recommended FFFg.  According
to him, the 50s should be able to handle either FFFg or FFg.  Anything
larger should use FFg and anything smaller should use FFFg.  I have
used 65 grain loads of FFFg in my rifle and everything seemed OK.
However, I feel that I need a bigger load for elk or deer and was
wondering if I should just increase my load (on FFFg) or change to
FFg.

I would appreciate any comments, suggestions, etc.

Jerry    

    .11
    
     Sorry I never replyed.   I use FFg Blackpowder, not sure on the caps
    used. (they have German printing on the containers ??).
    
    I shoot a 54 cal Thompson Center, 80 gr blackpowder.
    
    Mark

    
     re .12
    
     You bring up an interesting point. In a frontstuffer, there
     is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to how much
     powder to use. In theory, the gun will only burn so much in
     the barrel and the rest gets blown out the spout unburnt. One
     way to check for this is to fire your standard charge over
     some fresh snow. If you see a lotta black soot on the snow,
     you are loading more powder than the given rifle can burn in
     its' barrel length. Also, recoil will increase, sometimes to
     the point where a stock can crack after time, usually at the
     wrist.
    
     Some guys will then attempt to use different powder. My own
     opinion is that this is one time where the manufacturers'
     recommendations should be adhered to. (Well, OK, I think that
     for liability purposes, the loads in the T/C manual are a bit
     anemic and I usually go 10 grains over.....but thats it).
    
     FF has a different pressure curve than FFF. Or a different burn
     time, if you will. The results can be unpredictable at best. I
     would think that an octagon barrel gun like a T/C could probably
     "take it". Other guns with a thinner barrel might just blow the breech
     in your face, depending on the load.
    
     *If* I was going to attempt using a different grade of powder, I'd
     do it slowly and methodically at the range. If you load (say) 80
     grains of FFg, I would start at something like 60 grains of FFFg.
     Trouble being that unlike cartridge firearms, you don't have
     obvious signs of high pressure like flattened primers or hard
     extraction.
    
     Also consider the ballistic potential of your projectile. I would
     think that there would be a given point in fps where that beer can
     minie' ball might keyhole......so, you might just be taking a big
     risk for little in return.
    
     For bigger game, rather than jack up the load, I'd switch to a
     bigger caliber or get closer for a better shot.
    
     I just don't believe in pushing my luck. I'm sure that with any
     load, there is a bit of a safety overhead factor built in. I like
     to have a "pad factor". Thats why I leave a few carlengths between me
     and the next guy when I drive. I also strictly follow the manuals
     when I reload smokeless powder cartridges. And I won't substitute
     grades of blackpowder for each other.
    
     Just my opinion, comments welcome.
    
     DAP
    

    Hey Mark,
    
    I saw just the thing for you last night while paging through the
    Cabela's Christmas issue.  Near the end of the publication was an add
    for a hastings barrel that turns your Remington 870 into a BP gun.
    
    It uses 209 primers and as long as you don't use Federals, you'll at
    least know your getting a spark.  Once you close the action, the primer
    is kept dry.  The safety and the trigger still work in the usual way.
    
    Just a thought   :-|
    
    /brett

    I wish they had one to convert my 30-06.

    Interesting note...
    
    I sent Mark my methods of preparing a frontstuffer for "wet weather".
    Alot of it is good advise from others like Corky Towle, etc... Dana
    Peltonen and I found those latex rubber caps in a little gunshop in
    Colebrook NH, and I'll be damned if I can find anymore! So, the ones
    I have are like GOLD to me :-) and I'll never part with them!
    
    Just last night I broke out an old (and I do mean OLD) shooters bible
    from 1975. At the beginning of the BP section they had a 6 or 7 page
    story by Maj. George C. Nonte on a "Black Powder Safari" that he and
    Val Forgett of Navy Arms took in 1973 or 74. One of the more
    interesting things about the story was the loads that they developed
    for their muzzleloaders. Their HEAVY gun, which was a Navy Arms Hawken
    Hunter in 58 caliber used a 610 grain modified minie bullet. They mod-
    ified the mould to form a bullet with a thicker skirt, and a wad-cutter
    nose profile. And, get this... They modified the rifle to use "tophat"
    caps (much bigger/hotter flame from those), and loaded this 610 grain
    bullet with ***180 grains*** of fffg blackpowder!!! They used it on
    Elephant, and it penetrated 18" into solid Elephant skull, yet the pro-
    fessional hunter still had to dispatch the Elephant with a 458 double
    rifle...  So, what does this tell you about the strength of the modern
    muzzleloader? It tells me that IF you have one of those ML'ers with the
    octagon barrels, you don't have to worry about blowing the thing apart
    with anything under 150 grains for .54 cal, 130-140 grains for .50 cal,
    etc.  And, they also chose fffg for a possible face to face encounter
    with a charging Elephant/Cape buffalo. I've always found fffg to be a
    better "hunting" powder than Pyrodex (yeccch!) or ffg. It goes off with
    a pleasing "caaarack!" in my 58 cal H&R Springfield Stalker, and is
    just as accurate as ffg...
    
      So, load to the potential of your BP gun. The 58 Hawken Hunter
    mentioned previously is almost a clone of the T/C "heavy" muzzleloaders
    like the Hawken, Renegade, etc. About the only thing you're going to
    do to a muzzleloader to blow it up is to either double charge the 
    recommended max load (120 grains of ffg is the max recommended charge
    in the .54 cal Renegade using the 430 grain Maxiball). In other words,
    stuff 240 grains of ffg into the pipe with that biga$$ maxi on top!
    Yeow!!! Or do an accidental "charge over a charge", or a "double bullet
    charge". Remember, BP operates at a very low chamber pressure. Where
    people blow their guns apart is by doing the above silly tricks, or by
    not being "extremely" careful. Remember to make sure that the ball fits
    tight in the bore. A roundball or Minie/Maxi that can creep forward in
    the bore and become lodged at the halfway point in the barrel is a
    sure gun-buster... Load your gun normally, and then bounce the muzzle
    on a soft piece of wood. Recheck where the ball is with the ramrod to
    make sure that it's still against the powder charge...
    
      If you take these precautions you'll never have an accident with a
    ML'der, and you'll be able to REALLY get the full potential out of
    the gun... But, as an additional comment, if you don't have a "heavy
    type" muzzleloader with the octagon barrels, or if the hammer assembly
    on your rifle is of a very "light" configuration (like alot of the CVA
    rifles I've seen), then stick strictly to the manufacturers recommended
    loadings. The heavy muzzleloaders have some leeway in them, but they
    shouldn't be pushed too far either...
    
    Keep yur powda dry!
    
    Joe

    I just had to put this in.
    
         The absolutely best way to keep your powder is to stay in camp
    and keep your powder in the tightly closed can....  8^)  8^)
    
    I tried it once and I find its really the best way. Also since your
    not going hunting you can hit all the local gunshops and find something
    you just got to have.... ;^)
    
    sjn

             <<< Note 777.17 by ZEKE::HOLLEN "I'm the NRA/GONH" >>>
                               -< ramblings... >-

>>    sure gun-buster... Load your gun normally, and then bounce the muzzle
>>    on a soft piece of wood. Recheck where the ball is with the ramrod to

	Ok, I'll admit that I'm not hitting on all eight today, but
	would explain the bit about bouncing the muzzle on a soft
	piece of wood?  Is this just to check for a tight fit?  I'd
	really like to know, as I'm a novice black powder user.

	Thanks,

	Jerry

    Jerry:
    
      After charging the BP gun with your powder charge you next load the
    ball/conical type bullet over the charge. You should, especially with
    black powder, have already determined how far down the ball should
    be seated. Blackpowder/bullet (roundball) combinations should be seated
    so that the bullet or ball "just touches" the powder charge and does
    NOT compress the powder charge at all. By the same token, it shouldn't
    be too far up the spout away from the charge either. So, once you have
    the perfect point at which "your hunting load" should have the bullet
    loaded, you should mark your ramrod accordingly.
    
      Some types of bullets/patch & ball configurations fit tighter or
    looser than others. During a long hunting day alot can happen. You 
    might bang the rifle here or there. Anything like this can cause the 
    bullet/ball to slip forward in the barrel. Even just handling the
    rifle all day long in a normal manner can cause the bullet/ball to
    ride forward in the bore IF the bullet/ball is a loose fit in the bore.
    To test and see IF your bullet will possibly ride forward in the bore,
    and cause a dangerous situation, load the rifle normally, and then
    bounce the muzzle on a soft piece of wood like a standard 2X4 on a
    cement floor. Now, recheck the position of the bullet/ball in the bore
    with the ramrod. IF it has moved forward (your mark on your ramrod will
    not be even with the muzzle), then you can assume that you need a
    tighter fitting bullet/ball & patch combination. This marking of the
    ramrod also has the added benefit of allowing you to consistantly
    place the bullet/ball in the same place each time you fire your muzzle-
    loader. This can only result in an improvement in accuracy and
    ignition.
    
      Hope that explains it! And, don't hesitate to ask any other
    questions, cause there's alot that goes into successful and *safe*
    muzzleloading...  Good luck
    
    
    Joe

             <<< Note 777.20 by ZEKE::HOLLEN "I'm the NRA/GONH" >>>
    
    Joe,
	
    Thanks for the info.  I already know about measuring with your
    ramrod, but I never suspected that the ball could be loose and
    work it's way up the barrel.  Guess I'll have to check that.

    Jerry