Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    	Jim, 
    		Glad to see you're keeping an open mind about this.
    Looks like it might be a sticky situation....
    
    - Rob

    re:1
    Neal, 
    	they only allow hikers onto the Prescot (SP ?) peninsula
    by permit only.
    
    My wife talked to Paul Rezendez last night. One of the problems
    with the depleted vegetation has nothing to do with the deer
    population at all. It has to do with Forest mismanagement by
    the MDC. They allowed commercial tree cutting beyond what was
    needed. The MDC brought in over $300k in this business. Now
    with the size of the deer heard, the remaining vegetation can't
    handle it.
    
    
    It's politics for sure, which is why I'm leaning towards no hunting.
    I'm a hunter, but a conservationist first.
    
    Now this is my opinion and not necessarily fact, but there is something
    smelly here.
    
    There are a number of issues. First, remember when the MDC wanted
    to raise fishing rates ? Well they didn't get what they wanted,
    so, they sold trees. Guess who Sen. Wetmore gets his campaign
    support from ? Could it be lumber companies in the Barre area ?
    
    Also, the University of Mass wants to put in a giant telescope
    out on Prescot peninsula. Allowing hunting in that area kind of
    helps Wetmore get support to get that through when the fight comes
    up.

    Jim

 I think they ought to have hunting by permit only, so they can control the
amount of foot traffic in and out of the Quabbin. Whether the current vegetation
problem is a result of overdeforestation of under deer predation, the resultant
problem must be addressed in the most ecologically sound manner.

 What exactly is the worry about allowing hunting vis a vis the eagle 
population? Do they think hunters will shoot the eagles?

 I think that the problem should be studied and quickly addressed. I tend to
believe a hunt would be beneficial, evidence to the contrary lacking at this
point.

 The Doctah

    
    
    Let me go in alone, I'll thin the herd without disrupting anything.
    
    Seriously!!!, I think the politics should stay out of this. Let the
    hunters and game department work together. If there should have to be
    a hunt, then let it happen, if not then thats ok too. But if a hunt
    does go on I vote for the permit system and a written test like they
    do at Plum-Island Mass on the Fedral Reservation.
    
    Theres lots of ideas hunters could give the Game-Dept. after all 15 to
    20 years ago you could'nt buy a deer in Mass. Now look at it!!!
    
    Hey, Maybe they should open a 3month season with Bow only I don't know
    just an idea.
    
    Rick

RE: Rich
    
    I agree, the cutting like the eagles didn't and still doesn't make
    a whole lot of sense to me. I want to know how hunting would affect
    the eagles also. I'm gonna stay on top of this topic and I'll pass
    on everything I get.
    
    I know Paul Rezendez's credibility, and we all know the MDC's. It's
    a matter of who I have more trust in right now and it ain't the
    MDC.
    
    More to come.
    
    Jim

    RE:6 
    Hi Rick,
            that's the big problem. Quabbin doesn't come under the game
    departments juristiction alone. They have to deal with the MDC also.
    I can garauntee you, if it were up to the game department, there
    wouldn't be a problem. 
    
    Paul Rezendez has been paid by the game department to monitor
    the deer herd in the Quabbin area. Which is why I trust him
    more than the MDC.
    
    Jim

    Since most of the eagles are winter residents, this isn't
    a big problem. The re-introduction program is focused 
    deep in the peninsula. As I understood, the hunting was
    to take place outside the peninsula area. (rats!) Since
    you can already hunt across the road from the reservation,
    and since the area is a friggin war zone on opening day,
    the added area might thin th pressure. (The deer cross
    into Quabbin in *droves* when the shootin starts.)

    
    
       A few years back i hunted with a friend from Paxton. He took
    me to a place close to Quabbin and i couldn't believe the amount
    of shooting i heard on the Quabbin property... I mean in one day
    i bet i heard a dozen rounds go off... I think people hunt there
    but are very careful not to go to far onto the boundry...
    
        I strongly feel that they should give out special permitts
    to "Archery Only" hunters... That way the lead that flies won't
    be dangerous.. Say 3000 permitts??? 4000???  As many as it takes
    to make it a better place for the MDC...  I know the pros, and cons
    of archery only but i think it would have a better chance with the
    MDC.
    
    
          Jeff

    ::Are you saying hunting with firearms aint safe???"""
    
       Don't put words in my mouth... 
    
    
      I'm just thinking of all the people who hike around that area...
    I would like to use a gun around there... I'd prefer a gun!!!
    
       But archery sounds like the safest....
    
    
    
    Picture this,,,,   15,000 Hunters in small area.... You see orange
    everywhere..  Like My first year in Petersham...
    
    
        I'M NOT PUTTING GUNS DOWN>>>>>>>   Rich..
    
    
    Jeff

    The reason I was thinking of archery only had nothing to do with 
    safety... I was under the impression after reading a couple of previous
    replies, that the noise from the shotgunning might have a negative
    effect on the eagle populace... I may be way off base here but that is
    the impression I got.  However if that was the case then The MDC should
    have no issue with bowhunters.
    
    Fra

    
    
    I can see where i was interpreted the wrong way...  They do have
    a problem out there and it should be adressed. I don't think the
    MDC wants any hunting there. But if the land and enviorment is being
    destroyed by Deer and Humans then they had better do something about
    it.   I'm sure if they did allow hunting out there that the MDC
    and Game Wardens would be out in full force. So what the hell, Let
    us hunt it and make the difference.
    
        ::Hackle Feathers???::  Yeah i use em quite often to ty flies...
    
    
             Jeff

    
    As far as Quabbin being hunted it already is by some big officials
    in the boston area and by mdc personal and we all know it. Just
    like the reservoirs that are closed to the public, but officials
    use them. I have even had reports from land oweners that the game
    wardens have taken officials in the woods with radio trackers and
    tracked large bears and the official goes home with a nice big bear.
    Doesn't that just piss ya off, I even witnessed a game warden during
    the first week of bear about 10 years ago drop a ten pointer with
    a rifle and I watched him drag it out to his station wagon.
    
    I have read that the bow and arrow is more deadly than and merciful
    plus the penitration is alot better. The only theing that shotguns
    and rifle has is the shock factor. For an example I have shot a
    bear with a bow and it died within 40 yards and within 15 seconds
    from the time it was hit.
    	Hunting  Quabbin with a bow would be great and I would love
    it but allow 15000 or so all at once is crazy, have two or even
    three different bow seasons, or have a certain time limit per hunter.
    like each hunter has two weeks to take two or three deer, but run
    it for three months. You could have 200 hunters hunting at one specific
    time limit, if you got your deer fine if not try again next year
    if it is still open. This is just a food for thought.
    Roger

    Hey hey ! Take it somewhere's elss. Keep the subject on Quabbin.

	I thought the Prescott pennisula section of Quabbin was federally 
protected?? That would mean another group of politicians are involved.
I believe the area of Quabbin they are talking about excludes Prescott,
correct me if I am wrong.

	I tend to agree that well planned and monitored cutting in the area 
would benefit the herd, but I doubt that the MDC did any scientific planning 
and very little if any monitoring of cutting after the cash was in thier hand.

	Historically, one of the reasons fishing was allowed on Quabbin 
was due to the strength of the political lobby in the state that supported 
fishing. I tend to agree with the author of the topic that it will be a 
political battle.

Jim

    Well I'm gonna be out of here until after Easter, so I won't have
    any contributions on this subject until then. 
    
    The latest info I have is really third hand via my wife. She talked
    with Paul Rezendez and a woman (I didn't get the name) who is active in 
    the Quabbin Protective Alliance, last Thursday. Although Paul contends 
    that he is not anti hunting, and he probably isn't, from what my said, the
    woman definitely was. Paul, on the other hand has a vested interest
    in the Quabbin area. He run's paid guided wildlife tour's through the
    Quabbin area. I can see a conflict of interest here, but I don't
    want to judge his motives as of yet. As far  as the eagles are
    concerned, again it's is the guy who is running the eagle program
    that has a vested interest. The MDC is saying right now, that if
    it's a choice between running the eagle program, or protecting the
    forest around the reservoir, then the eagle program will have to
    go. The resovoir comes first.

    From what my wife said, it looks more like the MDC will win to open
    hunting, but not without a major fight.
    
Jim

    re: 17
    
    	Sounds like I hit someones hot button, and he wants me to drop
    the subject. 
    	Just for the record I spoke to the mass fish and game dept at
    the sporting show and they firmly believe that the Quabbin will
    be open to hunting but not during the regular season, and will require
    a special permit
    Roger 

If the eagles will be affected then the need to reduce the deer by ~3000 
suggests a professional cull using either silenced rifles or crossbows.

/. Ian .\

(Just thought I'd stir up the mud a little :-))

    	Please Ian, I'm sure you meant "Suppressed rifles", not
    "silenced"  :^)
    
    
    	Adding a little more mud,
    
    		George

    Seems like land mines would work better to me. Not only would you
    get rid of the excess deer but you'd also put a damper on the illegal
    hunting that goes on there that might endanger the eagles. Course
    the solutioin to the whole thing is to take everythin west of 
    Worchester and form a new state. Now if I was runnin for govena
    of this hea state....  :^) :^) :^)  ~/~
    
    Always helps when your stirrin up trouble to throw in a few hornets.
    John
                                                         

    As I said earlier, the eagle population is made up of a few
    'residents' and a larger number that winter in the area, feeding
    on deer carcasses on the ice. The known nesting area on the
    peninsula can be closed, and the remaining area hunted with 
    minimum disturbance to the birds. Disturbance can be further
    minimized by having a season earlier in the fall, before the 
    migrant birds arrive.
    
    Dana

George, et al.

The device that reduces the noise level of a firearm is technically a suppressor.

However in British firearm legislation... (don't laugh, I have to live with this
junk) ... you can get a licence for a "silencer" if (and only if) you have a
professional need to cull "timid" species.

So if eagles were a problem here the landowner could get a licence for a 
silenced rifle...

/. Ian .\

    
    I saw a short article on this issue the other day. I have it at
    home and will post it in its entirety if you guys want. What it
    basically said was that it was voted on at an executive meeting
    and passed. There were supposed to be 17 people on this committe.
    only four showed up to vote on this issue. All four said yes to
    hunting. It now must go on to be voted on again somewhere else.
    
    A senator(?) named  Angelo(?) supports the bill and was interviewed.
    He said that those that were interested showed up to vote and that
    he did'nt know why the others did'nt show up to vote.        
    
                                                       
    Looks like these people either dont care or are to afraid to vote.
    I tend to believe the latter, none of the politicians in this
    state have the guts to stand up to the antis and are thinking only
    of themselves and their jobs.
                          
                                          Walt

    Walt,
    
      You say an "executive committe", who exactly makes up this committe?
    Is it comprised of F&G people or is it a bunch of Representatives or
    Senate people?  Just curious as to who does the voting.
    
    Jeff 

    
    Jeff,
    
         I'm not sure who makes up the committe.
         I meant to bring in the article and print
         the whole thing but I forgot it. My guess
         is that the people are Rep's. I WILL bring
         it in tommorow night and put it in here.  
                  
                                     Walt

    
                  Reprinted without permission
                  from worc. telegram & gazette
    
              Deer hunting bill defended by Angelo.
    
    
    
    State rep.Steven Angelo, D-Saugus, co-chairman of the Natural
    Resources Committe, yesterday defended the committes favorable
    recommondationm on a bill which would alllow deer hunting within
    the Quabbin res.     
    
    Angelo said he regarded criticism by the Quabbing Protective Alliance
    (QPA) with "a grain of salt" and said the QPA letter of April 9
    reflects a lack of understanding of the legislative process.
    
    Ray asselin, QPA president, sent a letter to Angelo and co-chairman
    sen. Theodore Alexio, expressing "Outrage" at the manner in which
    senate bill 994 was handled in committee.
    
    According to Angelo, the bill was given a favorable recommondation
    in an executive session of the committee following a hearing.
    
    "The wording of the bill was not changed fromthat which was submitted
    by Sen. wetmore," said Angelo.
    
    Sen. Wetmore, D-Barre, has proposed public hunting within the Quabbin
    Res. as a means of allowing the MDC to manage a percieved deer
    population problem in conjuction with the state Division of Fisheries
    and wildlife.
    
    "Considering the very controversial nature of the Quabbin deer hunting
    issue, why was the bill voted on by only four of the 17 members
    ,of the committe....and why was the bill approved with no changes,
    when even the MDC testified at the hearing that changes should be
    made?" Asselin asked in a letter.
    
    Angelo agreed that while it might be an emotional issue for the
    QPA, every committee member had the same opprtunity to vote on
    reporting the bill out to the senate.
    
    "Those intersted in the bill showed up to vote on it. I can't speak
    for the rest", said Angelo.
    
    
    
                                 Walt

    
    There was a write up in sundays paper about hunting the Quabbin.
    It seems that it is probably going to go through. The hunting will
    be controlled with a certain amount of permits being given out.
    
    There is talk of putting up electric fences to keep the deer out
    of the areas worst damaged and of letting sharp shooters go in and
    thin them out. The SS hired will be employess of the MDC and another
    group. The hunting will be confined to the Penobscot(?)
    penensalia(?sp?)
    
    
                                             Walt

            
    	re-1
    
    	Those electric fences will need to run real high. Ask any
    	farmer about that.                            
    
    	Gary

    re .30 What makes the MDC employees 'sharpshooters' ? (Yeah,
    I know, politics. Lotsa 'buddies' will be designated 'sharp-
    shooters' and 'temporary employees' of the MDC. I plan to
    raise a 4* stink on this one.)
    
    Dana
    
    PS it's 'Prescott Peninsula' - where the eagle project is going
    on.

    
    Re. electric fences
    
    I was thinking the same thing, they'd have to be real high and who
    is going to pay to put them in and to upkeep them. Seems like a
    waste of money to me.....Oh, wait a minute.... this is MA. they like
    to waste money 8')
    
    Dana, thanks for the correction on the Penobscot pen......I was
    close 8')
    
    As for employess of the MDC......Let's see how many high ranking
    officials are now deer hunters instead of donut dunkers.......
    They'll probaly drive as far in as possible, hunt any roads that
    are in there and hopefully get lost.
    
                                        Walt

    
    Here's the latest scoop:
    
    It's doubtful that the hunt will take place this year. They want
    to try a couple different things first. One is to fence in 400 acres
    on three sides, then push all the deer out of the 400 acres and
    close of the three sides with a fourth to make a closed in area.
    It will be a 5 foot high electric fence. The second idea is to bait
    them in at night and shoot them using spotlights. There will be
    one man shooting with a team of 4-5 men backing him up to butcher
    the animals.                                                  
    
    This is in this months edition of GOALs newspaper, whose name escapes
    me at the moment.
                                           Walt
    
                                               

    reprinted without permission from wed telegarm & gazzette
    
    MDC police arrested (name and address of person) at 10 a.m. monday
    for illegal hunting near gate 40 of the Quabbin Res.
    
    he was charged with hunting in a resticted area, possesion of a
    firearm, failure to display hunter orange, failure to obey regulatory
    signs, failure to obey a police officer and assualt and battery
    on a police officer.
    
    police located a hunter in camo clothes at about 9:30 and chased
    the subject about a quater of a mile after he refused to stop or give
    up his weapon. After a brief struggle he was taken into custody.
    One police officer was treated for a hand injury and released. A
    pre-trial hearing is set for Jan. 4
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I know monday was opening day of muzzeloader here in MA. but this
    guy was obviously hunting in an area were he knew he should'nt
    be.  The article also did not say what type of firearm this guy
    had so it may or may not have been a ML. My feeling is that the
    guy was poaching because if you're lost there's no need to run from
    the police just explain the situation, he was'nt wearing hunter
    orange and then he assaulted a police officer. Not the actions of
    an innocent man, of course we were'nt there and dont know the whole
    story but..............
                                              Walt
    

    re .35 The area around gate 40 is one I know well from fishing.
    (East branch of the Swift River.) MDC owns land along the river
    on the side of the road (rte 32-A) away from the reservoir.
    This land is not well posted. Most people think Quabbin land 
    ends at the first road away from the reservoir, but it isn't
    so. (A lot of Quabbin land _is_ hunted because of this. I hunted
    some of it for several years, MDC police never bothered us.)
    
    Would like to see more details, but I will admit, the guy _acted_
    guilty.

    Victory !! Part 1
    
    The Mass. Legislature has passed the bill to open Quabbin for
    hunting (according to Springfield, Ma. paper this AM).
    
    Bill now goes to Governor Dukakis for signing. (Anybody care to bet on
    the outcome ?)

    	Let's hope hi sits on it instead of vetoing it, and if he does can
    Weld the incoming GOV. sign it or does it have to go through the
    sen/house again?
    
    	In any case it's a BIG victory.
                         
    	Steve

    re: last few...
    
    NEVER, NEVER trust what you read in the news, nor the accounts given by
    police leading up to any given set of charges they slap on an individual.
    
    The police are masters of releasing "information" in such a way as to
    cover their own callous and many times brutal activities.  Many,
    (though not most) small-town types are eagerly waiting for an 
    opportunity to rough-up a tax-payer that has the temerity to question 
    their life-and-death authority, and eagerly look forward to the 
    opportunity to use their service revolver.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised in the very least if this "poacher" weren't 100%
    legitimate, even though the police report makes it look otherwise.
    
    Remember, they can nearly always bank on the fact that the "offender"
    hasn't the financial power to defend himself successfully, and plea
    bargaining can be used to impune the innocent (as well as free the
    guilty.)  A conviction of any kind looks good on the stat sheets.
                              
    <<< t >>> .... from very nasty, almost unbelievable, personal
    experience.

    Well, the MDC announced yesterday that there _will_ be a deer hunt
    in Quabbin reservoir in 1991. The hunt will take place during the
    normal shotgun season for deer. Area to be hunted is from gate
    3A in Belchertown to GAte 16 in New Salem. (The West side of 
    Quabbin's watershed, along rte 202.) 300 permits will be
    drawn, each hunter will have an area of approx. 30 acres to hunt.
    Each permittee will be allowed to take on buck and one doe. 
    (This is _not_ the same as Mass. regs so I'm not sure the paper 
    had it straight.)
    
    Applications for permits will be available after Sept. 2 from
    MDC. (I'll post the address, don't have article with me.)
    
    The 1992 hunt will be held on Prescott Peninsula.
    
    Dana

    
    This may be resolved but you can bet the anti's are going to be
    out in force to put a stop to this. Whether it be a court injunction
    or them out in the woods, they are going to be around.
    
                                       WB

    
from the Springfield Union-News 7-24-91 article by David Berengren
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Board pulls trigger on Quabbin deer    
-----------------------------------
The state metropolitan District Commission has given the final 
go-ahead for a nine day deer hunt at Quabbin Reservoir this Dec-
ember, in spite of continued opposition from environmental and
animal rights groups.

"The impact of 50 years of uncontrolled deer browsing has been linked
to serious future watershed protection problems, given that new 
forest seedlings continue to be trimmed back by the deer herd," at
Quabbin said MDC Commissioner M. Ilyas Bhatti in a prepared statement.

   Bhatti called the MDC's deer-management plan "a sensitive, balanced 
approach to prudent watershed management." The plan calls for experimental 
fencing and some changes in forest management practices as well as
the annual hunt.
   Ray Asselin, president of the Quabbin Protective Alliance, whose
approximately 200 members oppose the deer hunt, said it is "a shame"
the MDC will go ahead with a hunt without first trying different 
forest management plans or other means of controlling the deer 
population at Quabbin.
   The deer hunt, which the MDC plans to monitor each year and reassess
after six years, "will be permanent; it'll never stop," Asselin said.
   Asselin said that as soon as the deer population is reduced in
one area of the watershed, the hunt will be moved to another, and that
"maintenance hunts" would be required to keep the population low in
any given area.
   A 1990 MDC survey estimated there were about 50 deer per square mile o
in the area that will be hunted this year. The commission's ghoal is to 
reduce that number to about 10 deer per square mile and to maintain it 
at approximately that level. The MDC plan sets a goal of between 170-240
deer to be killed this year. 
   The MDC's hunt is planned for Dec. 2-11, which coincides with the annual 
shotgun season (for deer hunting.) The hunt will be held on about 9000
acres of the 56,000-acre watershed, between gates 3A and 16 on the
western side of the reservoir, near Pelham and Belchertown.
   Three hundred hunters will be selected for each of three 3-day 
increments of the hunt. "We will do a random selection (at) a public
drawing," said Clifton Read, coordinator of interpretive services at
Quabbin.
   Upon selection, hunters will be required to attend a November 
orientation session, and each hunter will be assigned a plot of about 
30 acres on which to hunt. Each hunter will be allowed to kill one deer
with antlers and one deer without antlers during the three-day period,
read said.
   The public will be barred from the 9000 acres of hunting area for the 
nine days of the hunt, but the rest of  Quabbin will remain open, he said.
    Hunter application packets will be available starting Sept. 2 at 
the Quabbin Visitor Center, the MDC'c Wachusett Reservoir Office in 
Clinton,and at MDC headqarters at 20 Somerset St. in Boston. They will also
be available at State Division of Fisheries and Wildlife district and field
offices.
   Deadline for submitting the applications is Sept. 30. The random drawing 
to select hunters will be held in mid-October.
   A smaller deer hunt, "using the most successful hunters from this
year's hunt," is planned for the fall of 1992 on about 4500 acres 
of Prescott Peninsula, Read said. Tree growth on Prescott Peninsula,
which is off-limits to the general public, has been the most
severely affected of any area in Quabbin, according to MDC studies.
   Quabbin Reservoir supplies the water for about 2.4 million people
in 46 communities, most of them in the metroploitan Boston area.
In Western Massachusetts, Chicopee, Wilbraham, and a fire district in 
South Hadley are served by the reservoir.